Honestly, the way American politics works makes it somewhat more efficient if someone can have influence on the internet than simply taking a position in office
Can confirm people think Canada when they hear “Ontario.” There was one time I was flying home from Boston to Phoenix, and my flight was diverted to Ontario due to a dust storm in Phoenix. I presume Mesa Gateway Airport was also affected, and there aren’t any other commercial aviation airports in the valley. When the pilot announced the diversion, a lot of people on the plane thought we were going to Canada.
it's funny, i grew up only knowing ontario, california since i had family living there. it wasn't until years later down the line that i learned of ontario, canada. the only reason i think of the latter now is because i don't hear people mention the former much if at all lol.
The Musk hole is madness. I don’t think most people are aware of how vastly different levels of people are lane (or tunnel) of cars can carry when compared to a rail line. A subway line can carry 10 to 20 thousand people per hour depending on frequency. A light rail can carry roughly half that. A lane for cars can carry - at best - 500 people per hour. It is an order of magnitude of difference! This is why so much of Southern California has been paved - the inefficiency of car traffic (that’s not even counting all the extra space taken up by the sprawling developments that cars permit).
It's not just that, but if I recall, when it first launched, it wasn't even autonomous...which is baffling since most of the current system is grade- separated except for at-grade stops I think? Hell, even your average APM is more advanced than this crap.
@@randomscb-40charger78 the latest version being done by SBCTA and a few other public entity players is an autonomous vehicle on-demand system, similar to one at London's Heathrow Airport. If Ontario remains a relatively small airport, where such a system would meet projected demand, it could make sense, but if Ontario is anticipating the huge growth in passenger numbers that it is, then such a low capacity system would not make sense. If Ontario really is projected to become the second busiest airport in SoCal, it needs a high capacity transit option(s), whether that be an APM from one of the Metrolink SB Line stations (I'd vote Rancho Cucamonga primarily because of Brightline West), a potential LA Metro A Line extension, though with how far that line already is and the issues it's having now with service frequency and scheduling I'm not sure that'd be the best route forward, or both. In the short term increased shuttle service and BRT could suffice, but some type of a rail option, whether an individual system or connected into one or more of the existing ones, absolutely should be in the cards and pursued. LAX's transit is an APM connected to two Metro light rail lines, both of which require a transfer to reach downtown LA, and one of them a second transfer to reach Union Station, making the FlyAway bus still the most convenient as well as fastest option to get between Union Station and LAX. Most likely once the APM opens, FlyAway will terminate at one of its stations, probably Metro Center alongside other buses and Metro light rail. It'd be kinda sad for LAX to have less transit connectivity than Ontario. I'm not sure something as grandiose as what was ultimately envisioned here is feasible, financially or politically, but there certainly could be something done that's a fair enough compromise between this and nothing. I'm a bit skeptical of CAHSR's Phase 2 to San Diego prospects, given their financial struggles now with just Phase 1 between SF and LA and the skepticism that alone may never get done, at least not with the current funding situation. I'm an avid supporter of CAHSR and firmly believe it will reach SF and LA, and by the 2040s for sure if not sooner, but a lot will need to go right for it for that to happen. Reaching Sacramento by 2050 is also very much within the realm of feasibility, as is San Diego via the IE but maybe less so, at least not until the 2060s.
The Southern Californian was conceived in a car, birthed in a car, lost their virginity in a car and knows nothing, through social engineering, about transportation without using a car.
The tunnel itself is fine. It's all the shitty cars inside that's the problem. Ironically these tunnels at 12' are JUUUUUUUUST large enough to squeeze a London deep level tube train down which would make sense if you could pair existing rail subways with cheap tunnelling.. But alas...
The narrowest sections of the London Underground tubes have an interior diameter of 11' 6" which is 6" narrower than the standard sized Musk tunnel... Too bad he's so anti-train because it would be a win--win solution for all if we had automated subways running down these tunnels everywhere... We'd never have traffic jams again!
If the Angels get to be a Los Angeles team in Anaheim then Ontario can definitely be a LA airport. Plus look how many major metro airports are actually more than an hour outside of town.
No. Nonono. No. We are not doing a Los Angeles Airport at Ontario and Anaheim and Desert Center. It's going to be called Ontario and just Ontario and everybody will just have to live with that. A lot of people spent a lot of effort to get it away from Los Angeles-it is not going back.
The Angel’s name and his proposed name is plain ridiculous. LaGuardia does just fine without a geographic name. How about Southern California International?
I had a moment in the middle of watching this one where I realized just how much work goes into each of these videos. Thanks for everything you do. These videos are such a great resource.
I have lived in the Inland Empire my whole life and ONT has a lot of potential. Its very modern compared to old LAX. Prices are much cheaper at LAX so many IE residents just travel to LAX to fly which hurts revenue for ONT. The airport needs to reduce prices. The airport is to expensive for the average IE resident
How much extra do you spend on fuel and parking by going to LAX? Also, greater chance of flight delays and traffic to get there. Is it really worth it?
@@tolumnia My parents live in IE as well, and I prefer to fly into LAX when I visit them due to the higher costs of flights to and from ONT, like OP mentioned. I only pay $10 to get to and from LAX using the SB Metrolink line and LAX Flyaway connection. Im not spending on gas, or dealing with traffic. ONT needs to figure out a way to drive down prices on flights, as its losing potential customers to LAX.
@@gilbertobarrios1920 ok but this adds a TON of travel time. From Rancho Cucamonga station to LAX, it's a one hour train ride via Metrolink to Union Station, and another 40 minute FlyAway bus to LAX, not counting transfer time. you're easily adding 2-3 hours, depending on your flight schedule and train/bus schedules. ONT flights are not that much more expensive than LAX.
True but you would save hundreds if you did the Metro. Plus you can always ask for a ride from a friend or family member. Sure it may cost the same if you do the numbers but ONT needs to be competitive if they want to expand. @rustydomino
RE: an infill station at UC Riverside, it was originally planned with the Perris Valley Line. It was supposed to be along Watkins, and I fought for it hard, but a bunch of people who bought houses next to train tracks didn't want to listen to trains. It's obvious, but you're gonna have to fight a very angry hornet's nest called Friends of the Hills.
Yeah, now there is a station with UCR in the name that is NOWHERE near UCR and at one point didn't even have a bus connection to it (I think they added it back recently). Watkins wasn't perfect. There would be no room for parking and probably at least a house or two would have had to demolished. There would still need to be a shuttle bus to UCR because even though it would literally be across the street from campus property, it's the very edge of campus with nothing except the maintenance yard and some dorms within easy walking distance. But it would beat what we ended up with.
I really like this. Of course, now we're two letters into a third word (INternational vs INland) but yes, I really like this. Way better than Los Angeles East Airport. or Los Angeles Imperial Airport.
For several years it was called LA/Ontario International Airport. I personally liked that name as it does serve the eastern part of the LA area. Also, most airlines will list Ontario as an option when you put Los Angeles in their websites as a destination.
As a part-time IE resident, the reason why the airport dropped LA from its official name, all began when the Ontario city government filed a legal complaint against them in April of 2013, claiming that Los Angeles World Airports (LAWA) was treating the airport like crap. After years of negotiations, LAWA finally agreed to turn over the airport’s operations to the City of Ontario. In November of 2016, operation of the airport went to the newly-created Ontario International Airport Authority (OIAA) from LAWA, and it has been that way ever since.
Have no care about LA and its airports but this series was awesome, informative and easy to follow. Amazing job also I was waiting for this third video to drop.
Sending my hate mail right now as an IE resident. All jokes aside, great video on the potential of the ONT airport, and what that could do for the region.
IE native as well mate!!! ONT definitely has a lot of potential but prices are stupidly overpriced compared to LAX. It needs more flights and be more competitive in order to be a power house of an airport
38:05 I like how you mention not needing to relocate a station here if future changes mean that this line will be disused. What the region needs is a concrete long range plan that they’ll stick to and see through. This includes land acquisition, ensuring that rights of way are protected (e.g. on interstates, power corridors), and not changing direction when there is a change in government - which is what happens literally everywhere. LA is doing a lot & doing some of it right too; but it’s got so much damage to undo that it’s going to take a century of effort and planning to reshape it into a sustainable city for the future. Great vid as always. 😊
I agree with you but politics still get in the way. LA Metro bought a freight right of way in the South Bay decades ago and now the nimbys living along are mad about the future C/K Line extension in Torrance that will use that very right of way. LA Metro just voted to continue to use the right of way but the NIMBYs are threatening a lawsuit.
I treat ONT as a family secret to avoid the long lines, shitty terminal design, and nightmarish parking/drop-off/pickup of literally every other airport in SoCal. The less people know about ONT the better.
I appreciate all of your videos. As a Transit Civil Engineer your videos are amazing and really help educate the public, support future expansion funding, and make my day. Thank you for all your hard work.
As someone who lives in the SGV… I can definitely say that almost everyone you meet, knows exactly what ONT is and how great of an airport it is! I don’t think Iv meet one person who would say they prefer LAX over ONT! Truly can’t wait for the growth of this airport!
While Nandert's focus is obviously how the airport's potential growth will impact regional transit, I am equally fascinated by how ONT's growth might influence airline traffic. Probably, these are closely connected! Passenger growth drives the need for better transit connections, and better transit spurs the addition of more flights. Could Ontario ever become to LA what Newark EWR is to NY or BWI is for DC? E.g., a busy airport with strong domestic and international options. As Nandert demonstrated, it has the long runways already and also lacks the restrictions faced by the other SoCal candidate air fields. Arguably, SNA and BUR already fill the niche in short-haul domestic service that LaGuardia plays for the New York area and DCA plays for DC. Yet, LA lacks a second airport with substantial long-haul connections, both domestic and international. That is the role ONT should aspire to. I think this vision is feasible for three reasons. First, the three legacy U.S. airlines already use LAX as a hub/crew base. If any one of them chose to "corner the regional market" by upping the ante at a second SoCal airport, they already have local staffing to jumpstart expansion. Such a move by one of United/American/Delta might also spur at least one of their alliance partners to bring international routes with heavy aircraft to the Inland Empire. Second, flights to/from Europe (or the eastern U.S.) would save up to 20-30 minutes of flight time by using ONT instead. That may seem insignficant for a 10 hour flight, but fuel is the airlines' biggest cost. Even that small savings on a daily basis, year after year, could make expanded service to ONT a good investment. Third, we know from the first video in this series that LAX is the #1 airport in the world for origin/destination travel. Since the airlines don't primarily rely on passengers changing planes, shifting some traffic east would have minimal impact on the business model for sucess at LAX. It would be more about whether passengers want to go there. Currently, the biggest drawback to ONT attracting flights from farther away is that many non-local travelers, especially the business fliers, want to head downtown. For them, LAX will be closer to their destination. (It's probably a wash for those tourist travelers bound for Disneyland.) The intermodal tansit center Nandert envisioned mitigates the transfer-time issue with faster service not only to DTLA but to the broader LA basin than comparably available from LAX. I don't know how much growth in passenger numbers would need to occur for ONT to start attracting investment from both transit planners _and_ airlines, but I suspect there's some sweet spot (15 million? 20? 30?) where both the long-haul flights and the investment in regional transit converge to create a virtuous cycle that elevates ONT into just such an airport powerhouse. Not likely in this decade. But, during the '30s? One can see a pathway! Now, if we can just get the transit portion moving....
All the pieces are there for Ontario to flourish including the large reserve land for new terminals, on a future HSR line, near Metrolink and in a part of the region that is the fastest growing... Makes sense to me! It does need an Avelo, Spirit or Southwest or really anchor the traffic though... Everyone else seems to have a dominant player but Ontario...
As a Palmdale resident and having thought about it, you're right that a PMD airport wouldn't be much of a player (even with the prevalence of aerospace companies and employees out here). If/when CAHSR and High Desert Corridor rail are built out, it would render regional air service to Northern California or Las Vegas superfluous, and any other short/medium-haul air routes (Denver, Phoenix, Pacific Northwest) would be better served, as you mentioned, by rail *from* the AV to the primary airports (LAX, BUR, ONT).
With how horrible the fight was between LAWA and San Bernardino County, you will never get that airport renamed. LAWA tried its hardest to completely bankrupt ONT and the effects are still being felt
8:00: To make the point even stronger,I would have counted _four_ east-west freeways (that are always slammed) connecting the LA area to the Inland Empire. I-210/CA-210 (Pasadena Freeway/Foothill Freeway), I-10 (San Bernardino Freeway), CA-60 (Pomona Freeway/Moreno Valley Freeway), and CA-91 (Riverside Freeway). I think 91 was the one not shown. That one "originates" in Torrance on the coast (south of LAX) and then connects southern LA _county_ to both Orange County and the Inland Empire. Despite missing LA proper, this freeway has occasionally earned the distinction "busiest" highway in the U.S., so absolutely merits inclusion. It intersects I-15 in Corona, at a point only 10 minutes or so (at freeway speed) from the airport. If one originates in Riverside and drives direct to LAX (75-ish minutes), CA-91 is most of the route. Missing that drive on the 91 alone makes ONT the more convenient airport. Similarly, anyone leaving OC bound for ONT will be on CA-91. Also worth pointing out that I-15 connects (transects) all four of these east-west freeway corridors basically at ONT. With a buffer of a few city blocks, the airport is bounded by freeways on three sides. Sandwiched between I-10 (north) and CA-60 (south), I-15 skirts its eastern boundaries. That north-south corridor on I-15 from CA-210 to CA-91 takes about 20 minutes because the "vertical" spacing between all four E-W freeways is quite narrow at that point. One could within about 20 minutes exit I-210 to SB I-15, then pass the 10, ONT, and the 60, before the merge onto the 91. That's a lot of E-W lanes!
As a lifetime area resident and someone who has been going to ONT since the 1960s, I can certainly appreciate your video. When I was a kid, we would look forward to holding on to the railing as the 727s would do a U-turn right in front of us resulting in a wonderful jet blast of fuel and sand and grit. The good news is that ONT’s relatively underused terminals and ease of freeway access (even with traffic) have a lot of positives. The limiting factor is that the air services are inadequate with Southwest dominating and the Big 3 focused on flights to their hubs. This means that I literally drive by ONT to go to LAX for long-haul. I know the transit systems in the area, and Metrolink in particular, from many years of riding the San Bernardino Line. In looking at your video, as seeing how inefficient Arrow and SBX are, all of the transit options are really not viable in this area as you can get there so much faster and easier by car even in traffic.
I think for locals, there's a sense of pride in the name ONTARIO... not to mention the $$$ spent to re-brand ONT away from LA. That was a whole thing a while back. Keep up the great and diligent work!
I find it interesting the amount of transit going along Holt Ave and Foothill Blvd, since those two streets used to be US Routes 60 and 66, respectively. US-66 became obsolete with the "completion" of Interstate 210 (and State Route 210, or SR-30), and was turned over to Caltrans and local cities as SR-66. US-60 was completely renamed SR-60, which was slowly upgraded west-to-east as a grade separated highway which is why Holt Ave is no longer SR-60 - it was rerouted to the separated freeway further south. Interesting stuff!
As a (very) local resident, transit fan, and user of ONT, I greatly enjoyed and appreciated this deep dive. The potential has always been evident but to see it fleshed out got me really excited. It would be a dream come true to have an A-Line extension at the bare minimum.
I've flown out of ONT for maybe 10-15% of my flights. If it ever grows, I'll be happy for it. You've definitely made the most comprehensive video reflecting dreams of the Inland Empire---welcome to the dream. You can fly in anytime you like, but you can never leave!
Great video as always! APM or the A Line suggestion: Also, I love the APM idea to connect the convention center, but I would actually do an extension from that rental center to the Toyota center and Ontario Mills mall, possibly. The issue is when we get to the Ontario Mills mall, we're halfway to the RC station. I'm not sure how to resolve this, but maybe that would be a better use for the A line extension, instead of terminating at the station, terminate at Ontario Mills or at the RC station. That way, you'd be able to access the convention center, ONT, the mall/Toyota center, and the RC station all on one line, likely running down Miliken Ave. One additional thought: ONT could relocate that hydrogen facility and Guasti road, build a very basic station there, and figure out a way to have Brightline terminate there, after running through their Rancho Cucamonga station. If they want a loop to RC, they could align a new track following the electric transmission corridor at Hyssop and 15. If I was the city of Ontario, I'd be looking really hard into getting Brightline to terminate and invest in real estate in the area north of the airport, via some sort of deal where ONT and the city of Ontario build station facilities for Brightline in exchange. If I was ONT, I'd also think about extending the runaways, especially the southern one, and closing off South Haven Avenue, too in terms of expanding the airport.
I always thought the old Post Office near Guasti road would make a fabulous rail station if the building was repurposed. Pretty sure it's already adjacent to the existing Union Pacific line mentioned in the video. In the distant past (10 years? 20?), I remember reading about some proposal to expand the runway in the manner you suggested, but that plan involved burying Haven Ave, much as Nandert suggested in the video when he contemplated a new terminal in the far future. I think Haven has become too important a corridor to close any portion of. Not to mention, anyone coming to the airport from CA-60 likely uses Haven Ave to access the airport from the south.
34:50 I don't get it, why not have the Las Vegas and San Diego HSR lines branch off to the East of ONT instead? (In other words -> I get why they would want Rancho Cucamonga as a terminal in a 1st phase, but why not disconnect it in a 2nd phase? That way Ontario stn would eventually take a ~similar role to that of e g the Amsterdam airport stn)
39:48 The heavy rail junction you mention here is actually already mostly built out, in the same way the C/K junction near LAX was when the C Line was originally built. Not that it would make an extension all the way to Mt. SAC make any more sense but something to keep in mind for any future planning.
The funny thing is, given the extra time it takes the train to get from Upland to Rancho, the A Line extension would take exactly the same net amount of time as the shuttle.
I'm not sure about an A Line Extension. The line is slow and plagued by delays already (especially slow in Long Beach, Washington and Flower, and Highland Park is TERRIBLE). I would love to see San Bernardino build a separate line from Montclair to Ontario International but to the same standards as the A Line to provide local and express service. Once the A Line is significantly improved, then the 2 lines can merge into a HUGE light rail line from Long Beach to Ontario. LA Metro and OmniTrans need to figure out how to reduce redundancies once the A Line is extended to Montclair. I expect ridership at the Pomona, and Claremont Stations to fall once they're served by the A Line. If the A Line is extended to Ontario International, boardings at Montclair and Upland would fall too. There's no reason to take a more expensive, less frequent service unless the time savings are significant.
@PASH3227 Light rail, as implemented, is really the wrong mode for LA in general. The city is too sprawling to have so much mixed traffic and grade crossings. I think an RER style network or automated light metro is the best option. Possibly both with two overlapping networks.
Yup!!! Let's hope Sepulveda selects the proposed Vancouver skytrain like technology and we will have that option built in for future considerations. @@kirkrotger9208
A direct regional rail link from LAUS to ONT would be fantastic for ONT's growth and for the entire L.A. Metro area. Getting from LAX to DTLA is never going to be easy and the environmental impacts of LAX are terrible.
I propose they fast track the Los Angeles Union-Rancho Cucamunga California HSR project to ASAP because that would enable both HSR to Los Angeles-Ontario International Airport and L.A. Union Station to be connected to Las Vegas. And since the corridor is basically just getting electrified and double-tracked with grade separation without any crazy long or expensive tunnel sections lord knows SOME form of government could find the cash for it, especially if it was tied in with Metrolink electrification the same way the Caltrain line between San Francisco and San Jose is a joint effort that benefits both rail operators...
Beefing up San Bernardino service for eventual HSR service would be GREAT! CAHSR is so inefficient as is that it'll be a miracle when the IOS (from Bakersfield to Merced) opens!
@@PASH3227 Sadly I agree! And yet the Central Valley, Palmdale/Lancaster and I.E. regions are the fastest growing in the state (for obvious housing cost/sprawl space reasons) so maybe it will be less about connecting them to SF and LA and more with themselves soon enough... Or maybe connecting these cheaper cities with jobs in LA or the Bay a few times a week commuting via HSR or beefed up regional rail... Even with its flaws I hope most of the project can be salvaged... It's good on paper, just really really messy in reality...
As someone who has always lived close to Ont, it is an amazing and easy airport. I have always been under the impression that 4 terminals was always them plan since the terminals are named 2 and 4 right now with the between them like you suggested and one being where the original terminals were.
I live less than 9 miles south of Ontario International Airport, and it has been a Godsent for me! I can't remember the last time I flew out of Los Angeles International Airport, and I hope to keep it that way! I normally fly domestically out of Ontario to locations such as Denver, Hawaii, Florida, and Las Vegas, however, in 2018, China Airlines started a daily flight to Asia out of Ontario! This was the icing on the cake!! Before China Airlines made its presence in Ontario, I had to make that dreaded 1.5 hours to 2 hours car ride from the Ontario area to LAX to fly to Asia. Now, flying to Asia is like a car ride to the shopping mall! In fact, the Ontario Mills Mall is actually farther than my drive to Ontario Airport. When I was flying out of LAX, I had to burden my family members or friends for a ride to LAX but now, since Ontario Airport is literally down the street, I can affordably take an Uber to Ontario Airport to fly international destinations. OMG, flying back from Asia is awesome because China Airlines arrives alone and you get through customs and immigration so quickly! I have mixed emotions because I want to keep this hidden gem all to myself but I want this great airport to grow to meet its full potential!
Back in the ‘70s, there was an Air National Guard detachment stationed at ONT. We used to go to the east end of the runway (you could do that back then) and watch the ANG conduct flight operations at night. The ANG that was stationed there flew F-4 Phamtoms and they were fun watch take off. That engine sound and the after burners were just “bitchin” to watch. Gave me chills every time. Ahh, memories!
My only note on the Palmdale/Burbank question you brought up at the end is that you kinda made a big deal about how Burbank was capacity limited due to curfews and a limit on the number of gates back in Ep 2. As such with the HSR, you could argue that Palmdale could be a decent "remote" expansion plan for Burbank, allowing for more overall gates and capacity for northern LA County.
The convenience of a short drive or bus ride will always beat cheaper tickets. Long beach and Burbank cost more than LAX yet locals love these airports because they're so much easier to travel through than LAX. Why would someone who lives and works in the San Fernando Valley (also including Burbank and Glendale) drive or take a train all the way out to Palmdale when they can take a quick uber to Burbank? Why invest in expanding an airport in a sparsely populated desert community when there's not a huge population to tap into? Palmdale isn't growing like Rancho Cucamonga and Ontario. Burbank can tap into millions of residents and workers within 10 miles of their airport. Palmdale and Lancaster combined have less than half a million. Also, Palmdale Airport is 50 miles from Burbank Airport. Palmdale will be great for the few who live and work in Palmdale. That's it!
Palmdale is growing really fast too! If you watch the video and notice those round irrigated areas east of the existing airport? That's is/was the site of the planned but unbuilt Palmdale Intercontinental Super Airport planned in the 1960's and then planned again in the 1990's... I personally still think it's a great idea to build it and connect it with L.A. via the California HSR and High Desert Corridors. What this video failed to mention was the growth patterns in Palmdale/Lancaster and I.E. are the fastest in California outside the Central Valley while the fastest shrinking are the cores of LA and SFO/OAK... So maybe it's not so crazy after all to think both areas will develop larger flying patterns soon enough. Plus Burbank won't be adding much capacity if at all... It just's a modernization project not an expansion so it will always remain slot limited...
My semi-serious ridiculously expensive transit proposal for Ontario Airport: Extend the D line at grade along the El Monte Busway, tunneled below Garvey Ave, in the median of I-10 (with REM style enclosed stations w/ platform screen doors to control noise), and finally elevated above the UP Alhambra Subdivision until it reaches the airport.
I believe "Terminal 1" counts as the old original (half-outdoor) terminal, now disused except for those two international arrival-only gates. (Those gates were a "modern" extension to the original building because they had jetways. The old ONT was mostly air stairs.) So any future terminals built east of T4 would presumably continue the sequential numbering, becoming T5 or T6. In addition, if they added a fourth terminal, it as likely they would redevelop T1 [raze, then build new] as build east of T4. While we are contemplating westward extensions of your hypothetical APM toward the actual convention center, at least two other possible destinations merit consideration. A cluster of hotels sit along Vineyard Ave, which was the airport entrance before T2 and T4 opened. The hypothetical route toward the convention center may as well see if it can serve several with an intermediate stop. More recently, the city added a 12,000 seat arena. I am thinking it's not that much farther. Could be wrong.
Toyota Arena is about 2 miles NE of the airport, closer to Ontario Mills mall than the Convention Center (which is almost adjacent to the airport). The arena and mall would already be served by BRT to the airport intermodal center (as proposed by nandert). Not sure of the utility of connecting them all together.
i have lived in rancho cucamonga all my life and i am BEGGING for a crumb of public transit and walkable communities. when i used to live in europe and on my vacations in asia, i cry everytime i can walk out the door and be on some form of public transit. here, i have to drive an hour in any direction to get to somewhere i like being. with that said i am excited for the immense potential for the inland empire. it's a shitty place to be, for now, but its MY shitty place. i just dont wanna grow old and still have to rely on a car to get myself around, if thats the case then i'm moving elsewhere for quality of life.
Yay more Riverside line slander! I'm imagining the tunnel to Mt SAC college having an elevator that drops like 10 stories to reach the platform from their new transit center.
Wow! I was not expecting all this information, it was entertaining and informative and your explanation were easy to follow, thank you for making such a great video 👍
As a resident of the IE in San Bernardino. I whole heartly love everything about this. As a local I wish there would be rail connections with CSUSB, UCR, LLU and URedlands. We ride transit more than anyone and all the major transit misses these spots entirely-only bus connections for thousands of students. Also, San Bernardino has huge issues with raves at the orange show, and the arrow line missed a huge change to divert traffic by connecting the arrow line into the Orange show. Love to see this potential
I've only been to Ontario International once, and it was because I took Metrolink to Rancho Cucamonga to get to the Ontario Carvana to buy my car. But there's no bus lines that connect out there - except for the bus that goes to ONT. I took thwt express bus to terminal 1 and immediately walked on foot out of the airport and to the Carvana a mile or so away. There's no safe or demarkated pedestrian entrance or exit to ONT. So I had to jaywalk and step over landscaping to get out.
It's a great airport. I used to fly to and from my home in the San Gabriel valley to school on the east coast. I must've flown out of ONT several dozens of times. I went back there a couple of years ago and was surprised at the new facilities. I even went back and drove by the OLD terminal, with its outdoor baggage claims. I remember stepping off the airplane and the first thing was the powerful stink of the dairy farms and stock yards south of the airport. Always made me laugh: am I in Texas or California? It was also awesome to leave the east coast with its 20º F temperatures and arrive to a warm and sunny 70º F with green trees all around.
Just came across the video and have to say this is brilliant: one thing i'd love to add to your CHSR/ Brightline routing would be to give Downtown San Bernardino station dual level bottom level a mix of CHSR + Brightline las Vegas that would use a Large highspeed rail X junction, North spur to a Cajon Pass base tunnel and onwards towards Brightline Las Vegas and maybe Salt lake city; with an additional tunnel to pull Amtrak long distance train into the downtown area. A southern spur connecting to San Diego, and a Eastern Spur onwards to Phoenix and beyond giving your LA Imperial Airport a connection to Imperial Valley and beyond. This would probably remove more Short haul flight options but would probably open up more expansion to long distance flights including giving it an even greater encampment area. overall great video :) I will have to look at more of your videos now :)
I love how well thought out everything is, from the alignments to the intermodal station! I wish my city had enough growth to consider this level of airport rapid transit service, but unfortunately even our airport bus line that runs seven times a day is on the chopping block. Keep up the great work!
Yes, build the A Line extension! And ugh, SB County needs to wake up and realize how ridiculously stupid the musk tunnels are. When ONT builds new terminals they should definitely look at renumbering them. Maybe switch to letters to avoid confusion between new/old numbers. I'm sure whatever they come up with will be less confusing than LAX's renumbering plan.
I literally grew up at ONT from the 70s to 90s. My dad was part of the original joint police/fire operation controlled by LAX. I used to travel regularly from ONT to wherever I needed to go (I grew up in Ontario and went to college at Redlands) using its original tiny terminal on the west end. I now live in Sacramento and it's really unfortunate that the terrible traffic in SoCal makes Long Beach and Burbank my current choices. Burbank actually provides a compelling example of what's possible, almost by accident. I land at the airport, walk across the street, grab a 20-minute train for about $7, and I'm in downtown LA's central rain terminal. Contrary to popular belief, I can literally get all over LA without car using this strategy. ONT is still suffering from the underutilization and mistreatment under its LAX ownership, and the parochial disrespect of the Inland Empire as a vast wasteland east of LA. Its potential has also been exacerbated by the foolish decision (in my opinion) of California's HSR project to emphasize a connection between LA and San Francisco, something nobody needs, rather than Las Vegas, San Diego, LA and Sacramento, the areas with the most projected need for housing and economic activity involving physical goods. Your video really demonstrates something I was corrected on early in my government career - letting reason and logic creep into your decision making. A funny example of this is the way ONT's second runway was built - LAX said no, and the ONT folks simply ignored them and built it guerrilla-style without any permission. I have no idea how they pulled it off but my dad was quite proud...he and fellow firefighters were out there pouring concrete themselves, LOL.
Fun fact: a few years ago, someone tried to book a business trip for me from Toronto to San Fransisco, but booked Ontario (ONT) to SF instead. I 100% agree with the name change.
from the ie, would hate los angeles imperial airport lol, but i appreciate the effort. Ontario definitely needs an update to its terminals though as they’re stuck in 2003.
Most airports in the United States are stuck in the 1970s. Some in the '50s. For airport infrastructure in this country, those two "new" terminals remain problem-free. (It was unlucky for them that they were designed right before 2001 changed the way designers designed airports.)
@@johnmaster3748problem free? My horn is getting worn out from all the idiots who nearly hit me. You can't mix departures with arrivals! It doesn't work.
As a resident and frequent flyer for ONT. the one thing that baffles me is that for an international airport there is only like two restrooms with one stall for the men it would be nice to not be waiting in a queue after hours of waiting
What is crazy is that an airport like Porto airport has double the movements and 15 million passengers with one runway alone and Ontario has talks about getting a third runway despite having half of operations and passengers
Lost my mind at the Tesla tunnel I wish the inland empire would stop treating itself like a group of small towns and start investing in proper rail and rapid transit projects
I don't know how much traffic the lines get but consider that the upper practical limit for intercity/hsr type service (eg 2 narrow doors per 25m car and heavy luggage) is 8 trains per hour per platform track. And that is already stretching it. So if both regional and hsr tracks are to be used to capacity 2 platform tracks per direction each will be necessary at least. With provisions for those the station should be planned for 8 heavy rail tracks in addition to LRT, BRT and rideshare/taxi.
As do Canadians... Just like La Canada-Flintridge even if its named after the Spanish family that had the name... Then again L.A. is the third largest Canadian city by population when you count ex-pats... If any city deserves to have its own "Little Canada" it would probably be Ontario for obvious reasons..
I believe Ontario, California was named after Ontario, Canada because that's where the Chaffey brothers were from. The Chaffey brothers were settlers in southern California that helped establish cities and institutions like USC in the area in the late 1800s. During this time period, southern California saw many settlers and immigrants from Britain, the northeast U.S., Canada, San Francisco, and even Australia, as there was active maritime movement between California, South America, Australia, the U.S. east coast, and Britain. Many also came overland--especially from the midwest U.S. from the Chicago area, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Indiana etc.
Great video, but I'm not entirely sure that the passenger traffic is there for ONT, in particular, front cabin/business flyers. In particular, I think that ONT has a lot of potential if they could become the Stansted type operation where the LCC/ULCCs are concentrated. Allegiant, Avelo, Breeze, Frontier, and Spirit should be able to find good success at ONT and I'm surprised that Allegiant and Spirit don't fly there already. Internationally, they should be courting French Bee, Norse Atlantic, Viva Aerobus, and Zipair. Certainly the attractiveness for cost sensitive flyers is improved by more transit options as well.
Orange County has long been derided as an urban area without a center, without a downtown. But nowadays, there are a few concantenations of high-rise offices, apartments, and hotels--and these are clustered within a few miles of SNA (near the junction of 405/55). These high rises comprise the closest thing OC has to an urban center. I'm not sure how much of that was there 20 years ago. Surely, OC had enough residential wealth to attract those services without the airport, but I think it likely that this pseudo-central business district emerged where it did because of proximity to the airport. SNA certainly does not lack for front-cabin ticket buyers, which is probably why it has the second-highest passenger count of the five airports. Your point argues that ONT will be unable to drive the kind of passenger traffic that will fuel the airline growth necessary to fuel investment in regional transit. But the reverse is also true. With fast and regular service to DTLA, ONT can mitigate some of the reasons those front cabin passengers prefer LAX. Moreover, the presence of the airport makes that immediate location the most likely area in the whole IE for a psuedo-central business district to sprout up. One that those front-cabin passengers want to reach. It's hard to envision that now, in part because the IE lacks the concentrated wealth of Orange County. But it's also hard to envision the HSR actually being finished, either. The low-cost carriers you mention may make a good strategy for the near-term. But ONT should not cede to LAX the mainline carriers either. In time, I suspect the IE's appeal for those front cabin dollars will increase. How much time? Not this decade for sure!
@@johnmaster3748 The Inland Empire should lean into Ontario International Airport, since it's a HUGE employer for both passenger and freight planes. Combined with the High Speed Rail service coming, Ontario and Rancho Cucamonga WILL be the IE's central business district, like how Irvine is becoming OC's.
Having "LA" in the IATA airport code would make the airport name much more intuitive for people not from Los Angeles. "LAT" is available ("LAO" and "LAN" are not) and would work as a summary of "Los Angeles Ontario International Airport".
The key to an airports success, is its ability to connect passengers to a wide array of flights, while attracting local passengers to the the array of numerous flights to nonstop destinations. If you have a large network of incoming flights, with connections to that destination, while supporting the local people. This is why huge hubs like ATL, DFW, DEN, ORD, JFK, LAX, work .
I only knew Ontario in Canada because I'm from Spain, then I discovered this airport in Maps when I was watching Rancho Cucamonga HSR station location and it was quite funny and shocking, you all can hate me now, sorry😅 That said, I think that you're right at everything from the name change to the station interchange👌
The problem with ontario airport vs lax is the ticktes or airfares are more expensive and not too many international flights, so who wants to fly from ontario they should star using more inter flights and cheaper airfares.
![Lp. Сердце Вселенной #60 РОЖДЕНИЕ ЛОЛОЛОШКИ [Финал] • Майнкрафт](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/YoR0pAV9FVQ/mqdefault.jpg)
Dude, run for office! You got my vote.
Run for Mayor of Ontario please.
Honestly, the way American politics works makes it somewhat more efficient if someone can have influence on the internet than simply taking a position in office
He won't win in deep-blue California unless if he somehow pretends to be some kind of oppressed minority to fool the voters.
Please!
Can confirm people think Canada when they hear “Ontario.” There was one time I was flying home from Boston to Phoenix, and my flight was diverted to Ontario due to a dust storm in Phoenix. I presume Mesa Gateway Airport was also affected, and there aren’t any other commercial aviation airports in the valley. When the pilot announced the diversion, a lot of people on the plane thought we were going to Canada.
it's funny, i grew up only knowing ontario, california since i had family living there. it wasn't until years later down the line that i learned of ontario, canada. the only reason i think of the latter now is because i don't hear people mention the former much if at all lol.
True but knowing Ontario they will never drop the name as they shooting to be best right now and want to the recognition
I was at the gate for our flight to ONT while in DEN and the loudspeaker literally announced "Ontario, Canada" instead of "Ontario, California" smh
Fact that it's 'Ontario, CA' doesn't help
Babe wake up, a Nandert video just dropped
I wish I had a babe 😔
This comment is such a staple for the nandert comments section
@@shlubbers1778Also the @milesintransit comment section.
Me. I’m babe.
@@radudeATL did you wake up, Babe?
I physically checked your page 20 times over the last month hoping this gets posted
SAME BRO
no it was actually insane
The Musk hole is madness. I don’t think most people are aware of how vastly different levels of people are lane (or tunnel) of cars can carry when compared to a rail line. A subway line can carry 10 to 20 thousand people per hour depending on frequency. A light rail can carry roughly half that. A lane for cars can carry - at best - 500 people per hour. It is an order of magnitude of difference!
This is why so much of Southern California has been paved - the inefficiency of car traffic (that’s not even counting all the extra space taken up by the sprawling developments that cars permit).
It's not just that, but if I recall, when it first launched, it wasn't even autonomous...which is baffling since most of the current system is grade- separated except for at-grade stops I think? Hell, even your average APM is more advanced than this crap.
@@randomscb-40charger78 the latest version being done by SBCTA and a few other public entity players is an autonomous vehicle on-demand system, similar to one at London's Heathrow Airport. If Ontario remains a relatively small airport, where such a system would meet projected demand, it could make sense, but if Ontario is anticipating the huge growth in passenger numbers that it is, then such a low capacity system would not make sense.
If Ontario really is projected to become the second busiest airport in SoCal, it needs a high capacity transit option(s), whether that be an APM from one of the Metrolink SB Line stations (I'd vote Rancho Cucamonga primarily because of Brightline West), a potential LA Metro A Line extension, though with how far that line already is and the issues it's having now with service frequency and scheduling I'm not sure that'd be the best route forward, or both. In the short term increased shuttle service and BRT could suffice, but some type of a rail option, whether an individual system or connected into one or more of the existing ones, absolutely should be in the cards and pursued.
LAX's transit is an APM connected to two Metro light rail lines, both of which require a transfer to reach downtown LA, and one of them a second transfer to reach Union Station, making the FlyAway bus still the most convenient as well as fastest option to get between Union Station and LAX. Most likely once the APM opens, FlyAway will terminate at one of its stations, probably Metro Center alongside other buses and Metro light rail. It'd be kinda sad for LAX to have less transit connectivity than Ontario. I'm not sure something as grandiose as what was ultimately envisioned here is feasible, financially or politically, but there certainly could be something done that's a fair enough compromise between this and nothing.
I'm a bit skeptical of CAHSR's Phase 2 to San Diego prospects, given their financial struggles now with just Phase 1 between SF and LA and the skepticism that alone may never get done, at least not with the current funding situation. I'm an avid supporter of CAHSR and firmly believe it will reach SF and LA, and by the 2040s for sure if not sooner, but a lot will need to go right for it for that to happen. Reaching Sacramento by 2050 is also very much within the realm of feasibility, as is San Diego via the IE but maybe less so, at least not until the 2060s.
The Southern Californian was conceived in a car, birthed in a car, lost their virginity in a car and knows nothing, through social engineering, about transportation without using a car.
The tunnel itself is fine. It's all the shitty cars inside that's the problem. Ironically these tunnels at 12' are JUUUUUUUUST large enough to squeeze a London deep level tube train down which would make sense if you could pair existing rail subways with cheap tunnelling.. But alas...
The narrowest sections of the London Underground tubes have an interior diameter of 11' 6" which is 6" narrower than the standard sized Musk tunnel... Too bad he's so anti-train because it would be a win--win solution for all if we had automated subways running down these tunnels everywhere... We'd never have traffic jams again!
If the Angels get to be a Los Angeles team in Anaheim then Ontario can definitely be a LA airport. Plus look how many major metro airports are actually more than an hour outside of town.
No. Nonono. No. We are not doing a Los Angeles Airport at Ontario and Anaheim and Desert Center. It's going to be called Ontario and just Ontario and everybody will just have to live with that. A lot of people spent a lot of effort to get it away from Los Angeles-it is not going back.
Ontario WAS an LA airport and was owned by them. Not any more.
I mean Santa Ana does just fine without being called LA anything.
The Angel’s name and his proposed name is plain ridiculous. LaGuardia does just fine without a geographic name. How about Southern California International?
@@ec1628probably won’t use Southern California since an airport already has that in the name.
I had a moment in the middle of watching this one where I realized just how much work goes into each of these videos. Thanks for everything you do. These videos are such a great resource.
I have lived in the Inland Empire my whole life and ONT has a lot of potential. Its very modern compared to old LAX. Prices are much cheaper at LAX so many IE residents just travel to LAX to fly which hurts revenue for ONT.
The airport needs to reduce prices. The airport is to expensive for the average IE resident
How much extra do you spend on fuel and parking by going to LAX? Also, greater chance of flight delays and traffic to get there. Is it really worth it?
@@tolumnia My parents live in IE as well, and I prefer to fly into LAX when I visit them due to the higher costs of flights to and from ONT, like OP mentioned. I only pay $10 to get to and from LAX using the SB Metrolink line and LAX Flyaway connection. Im not spending on gas, or dealing with traffic. ONT needs to figure out a way to drive down prices on flights, as its losing potential customers to LAX.
@@gilbertobarrios1920 ok but this adds a TON of travel time. From Rancho Cucamonga station to LAX, it's a one hour train ride via Metrolink to Union Station, and another 40 minute FlyAway bus to LAX, not counting transfer time. you're easily adding 2-3 hours, depending on your flight schedule and train/bus schedules. ONT flights are not that much more expensive than LAX.
True but you would save hundreds if you did the Metro. Plus you can always ask for a ride from a friend or family member. Sure it may cost the same if you do the numbers but ONT needs to be competitive if they want to expand. @rustydomino
tf do you mean old LAX its gotten a renovation over the past few years and looks insanely different plus they are almost done.
Its my sleepover and I get to choose the movie!!!
💀
RE: an infill station at UC Riverside, it was originally planned with the Perris Valley Line. It was supposed to be along Watkins, and I fought for it hard, but a bunch of people who bought houses next to train tracks didn't want to listen to trains.
It's obvious, but you're gonna have to fight a very angry hornet's nest called Friends of the Hills.
Yeah, now there is a station with UCR in the name that is NOWHERE near UCR and at one point didn't even have a bus connection to it (I think they added it back recently).
Watkins wasn't perfect. There would be no room for parking and probably at least a house or two would have had to demolished. There would still need to be a shuttle bus to UCR because even though it would literally be across the street from campus property, it's the very edge of campus with nothing except the maintenance yard and some dorms within easy walking distance. But it would beat what we ended up with.
Classic problem that will impede any of these transit plans unless we get some streamlining and governance fixes from the CA state government.
Los Angeles INLAND Airport
If Oakland can change its name to San Francisco Bay Area…I guess Los Angeles Inland would work too.
That's the name I was thinking too!!
I really like this. Of course, now we're two letters into a third word (INternational vs INland) but yes, I really like this. Way better than Los Angeles East Airport. or Los Angeles Imperial Airport.
I’ve been trying to create an easy and memorable acronym.
Still trying…
Los Angeles Inland Empire International
For several years it was called LA/Ontario International Airport. I personally liked that name as it does serve the eastern part of the LA area. Also, most airlines will list Ontario as an option when you put Los Angeles in their websites as a destination.
As a part-time IE resident, the reason why the airport dropped LA from its official name, all began when the Ontario city government filed a legal complaint against them in April of 2013, claiming that Los Angeles World Airports (LAWA) was treating the airport like crap. After years of negotiations, LAWA finally agreed to turn over the airport’s operations to the City of Ontario. In November of 2016, operation of the airport went to the newly-created Ontario International Airport Authority (OIAA) from LAWA, and it has been that way ever since.
i’m mad that youtube didn’t put this in my regular feed
I watch videos both from my regular feed and my subscription feed
Have no care about LA and its airports but this series was awesome, informative and easy to follow. Amazing job also I was waiting for this third video to drop.
“And you’re not about to tell me that fucking Luton or Stansted are in London” 😂😂😂
ish................ And it's a Mighty Big ISH...
Sending my hate mail right now as an IE resident. All jokes aside, great video on the potential of the ONT airport, and what that could do for the region.
IE native as well mate!!! ONT definitely has a lot of potential but prices are stupidly overpriced compared to LAX. It needs more flights and be more competitive in order to be a power house of an airport
Hour long video LETS GOOOOOOOO
I looove flying into Ontario over LAX! It's SO much easier!!!
38:05 I like how you mention not needing to relocate a station here if future changes mean that this line will be disused. What the region needs is a concrete long range plan that they’ll stick to and see through.
This includes land acquisition, ensuring that rights of way are protected (e.g. on interstates, power corridors), and not changing direction when there is a change in government - which is what happens literally everywhere. LA is doing a lot & doing some of it right too; but it’s got so much damage to undo that it’s going to take a century of effort and planning to reshape it into a sustainable city for the future.
Great vid as always. 😊
I agree with you but politics still get in the way. LA Metro bought a freight right of way in the South Bay decades ago and now the nimbys living along are mad about the future C/K Line extension in Torrance that will use that very right of way.
LA Metro just voted to continue to use the right of way but the NIMBYs are threatening a lawsuit.
I treat ONT as a family secret to avoid the long lines, shitty terminal design, and nightmarish parking/drop-off/pickup of literally every other airport in SoCal. The less people know about ONT the better.
Inland empire peoples do not CARE for your useless opinion 😊
I appreciate all of your videos. As a Transit Civil Engineer your videos are amazing and really help educate the public, support future expansion funding, and make my day. Thank you for all your hard work.
As someone who lives in the SGV… I can definitely say that almost everyone you meet, knows exactly what ONT is and how great of an airport it is! I don’t think Iv meet one person who would say they prefer LAX over ONT! Truly can’t wait for the growth of this airport!
While Nandert's focus is obviously how the airport's potential growth will impact regional transit, I am equally fascinated by how ONT's growth might influence airline traffic. Probably, these are closely connected! Passenger growth drives the need for better transit connections, and better transit spurs the addition of more flights. Could Ontario ever become to LA what Newark EWR is to NY or BWI is for DC? E.g., a busy airport with strong domestic and international options. As Nandert demonstrated, it has the long runways already and also lacks the restrictions faced by the other SoCal candidate air fields. Arguably, SNA and BUR already fill the niche in short-haul domestic service that LaGuardia plays for the New York area and DCA plays for DC. Yet, LA lacks a second airport with substantial long-haul connections, both domestic and international. That is the role ONT should aspire to. I think this vision is feasible for three reasons. First, the three legacy U.S. airlines already use LAX as a hub/crew base. If any one of them chose to "corner the regional market" by upping the ante at a second SoCal airport, they already have local staffing to jumpstart expansion. Such a move by one of United/American/Delta might also spur at least one of their alliance partners to bring international routes with heavy aircraft to the Inland Empire. Second, flights to/from Europe (or the eastern U.S.) would save up to 20-30 minutes of flight time by using ONT instead. That may seem insignficant for a 10 hour flight, but fuel is the airlines' biggest cost. Even that small savings on a daily basis, year after year, could make expanded service to ONT a good investment. Third, we know from the first video in this series that LAX is the #1 airport in the world for origin/destination travel. Since the airlines don't primarily rely on passengers changing planes, shifting some traffic east would have minimal impact on the business model for sucess at LAX. It would be more about whether passengers want to go there. Currently, the biggest drawback to ONT attracting flights from farther away is that many non-local travelers, especially the business fliers, want to head downtown. For them, LAX will be closer to their destination. (It's probably a wash for those tourist travelers bound for Disneyland.) The intermodal tansit center Nandert envisioned mitigates the transfer-time issue with faster service not only to DTLA but to the broader LA basin than comparably available from LAX. I don't know how much growth in passenger numbers would need to occur for ONT to start attracting investment from both transit planners _and_ airlines, but I suspect there's some sweet spot (15 million? 20? 30?) where both the long-haul flights and the investment in regional transit converge to create a virtuous cycle that elevates ONT into just such an airport powerhouse. Not likely in this decade. But, during the '30s? One can see a pathway! Now, if we can just get the transit portion moving....
All the pieces are there for Ontario to flourish including the large reserve land for new terminals, on a future HSR line, near Metrolink and in a part of the region that is the fastest growing... Makes sense to me! It does need an Avelo, Spirit or Southwest or really anchor the traffic though... Everyone else seems to have a dominant player but Ontario...
As a Palmdale resident and having thought about it, you're right that a PMD airport wouldn't be much of a player (even with the prevalence of aerospace companies and employees out here). If/when CAHSR and High Desert Corridor rail are built out, it would render regional air service to Northern California or Las Vegas superfluous, and any other short/medium-haul air routes (Denver, Phoenix, Pacific Northwest) would be better served, as you mentioned, by rail *from* the AV to the primary airports (LAX, BUR, ONT).
With how horrible the fight was between LAWA and San Bernardino County, you will never get that airport renamed. LAWA tried its hardest to completely bankrupt ONT and the effects are still being felt
here we go!!
8:00: To make the point even stronger,I would have counted _four_ east-west freeways (that are always slammed) connecting the LA area to the Inland Empire. I-210/CA-210 (Pasadena Freeway/Foothill Freeway), I-10 (San Bernardino Freeway), CA-60 (Pomona Freeway/Moreno Valley Freeway), and CA-91 (Riverside Freeway). I think 91 was the one not shown. That one "originates" in Torrance on the coast (south of LAX) and then connects southern LA _county_ to both Orange County and the Inland Empire. Despite missing LA proper, this freeway has occasionally earned the distinction "busiest" highway in the U.S., so absolutely merits inclusion. It intersects I-15 in Corona, at a point only 10 minutes or so (at freeway speed) from the airport. If one originates in Riverside and drives direct to LAX (75-ish minutes), CA-91 is most of the route. Missing that drive on the 91 alone makes ONT the more convenient airport. Similarly, anyone leaving OC bound for ONT will be on CA-91.
Also worth pointing out that I-15 connects (transects) all four of these east-west freeway corridors basically at ONT. With a buffer of a few city blocks, the airport is bounded by freeways on three sides. Sandwiched between I-10 (north) and CA-60 (south), I-15 skirts its eastern boundaries. That north-south corridor on I-15 from CA-210 to CA-91 takes about 20 minutes because the "vertical" spacing between all four E-W freeways is quite narrow at that point. One could within about 20 minutes exit I-210 to SB I-15, then pass the 10, ONT, and the 60, before the merge onto the 91. That's a lot of E-W lanes!
As a lifetime area resident and someone who has been going to ONT since the 1960s, I can certainly appreciate your video. When I was a kid, we would look forward to holding on to the railing as the 727s would do a U-turn right in front of us resulting in a wonderful jet blast of fuel and sand and grit. The good news is that ONT’s relatively underused terminals and ease of freeway access (even with traffic) have a lot of positives. The limiting factor is that the air services are inadequate with Southwest dominating and the Big 3 focused on flights to their hubs. This means that I literally drive by ONT to go to LAX for long-haul. I know the transit systems in the area, and Metrolink in particular, from many years of riding the San Bernardino Line. In looking at your video, as seeing how inefficient Arrow and SBX are, all of the transit options are really not viable in this area as you can get there so much faster and easier by car even in traffic.
Finally the ONT video, my home. Also expect a strongly worded letter regarding the airport name Nandert.
I think for locals, there's a sense of pride in the name ONTARIO... not to mention the $$$ spent to re-brand ONT away from LA. That was a whole thing a while back. Keep up the great and diligent work!
I find it interesting the amount of transit going along Holt Ave and Foothill Blvd, since those two streets used to be US Routes 60 and 66, respectively. US-66 became obsolete with the "completion" of Interstate 210 (and State Route 210, or SR-30), and was turned over to Caltrans and local cities as SR-66. US-60 was completely renamed SR-60, which was slowly upgraded west-to-east as a grade separated highway which is why Holt Ave is no longer SR-60 - it was rerouted to the separated freeway further south. Interesting stuff!
Please tell me city/county planners have come to you about your plans youve created?
5:52 ‘’London’’ Oxford airport as well! Great video btw
Even Lydd tried it on for a while and it's waaaaaaay closer to Calais than London too!
Sorry it's now London ASHFORD Airport... Still just not that far from Calais though... ;-)
Wow amazing! Best of the series ! Way to end it with a bang 🎉
As a (very) local resident, transit fan, and user of ONT, I greatly enjoyed and appreciated this deep dive. The potential has always been evident but to see it fleshed out got me really excited. It would be a dream come true to have an A-Line extension at the bare minimum.
I know you speak as an LA local but have you ever thought of making a video on the future of San Diego? Biased bc Im from there but just curious
And maybe speak to Carlsbad and TIJ in that video please.
Most anticipated video in a long time! Thanks so much for it!
I've flown out of ONT for maybe 10-15% of my flights. If it ever grows, I'll be happy for it. You've definitely made the most comprehensive video reflecting dreams of the Inland Empire---welcome to the dream. You can fly in anytime you like, but you can never leave!
Great video as always!
APM or the A Line suggestion: Also, I love the APM idea to connect the convention center, but I would actually do an extension from that rental center to the Toyota center and Ontario Mills mall, possibly. The issue is when we get to the Ontario Mills mall, we're halfway to the RC station. I'm not sure how to resolve this, but maybe that would be a better use for the A line extension, instead of terminating at the station, terminate at Ontario Mills or at the RC station. That way, you'd be able to access the convention center, ONT, the mall/Toyota center, and the RC station all on one line, likely running down Miliken Ave.
One additional thought: ONT could relocate that hydrogen facility and Guasti road, build a very basic station there, and figure out a way to have Brightline terminate there, after running through their Rancho Cucamonga station. If they want a loop to RC, they could align a new track following the electric transmission corridor at Hyssop and 15. If I was the city of Ontario, I'd be looking really hard into getting Brightline to terminate and invest in real estate in the area north of the airport, via some sort of deal where ONT and the city of Ontario build station facilities for Brightline in exchange.
If I was ONT, I'd also think about extending the runaways, especially the southern one, and closing off South Haven Avenue, too in terms of expanding the airport.
I always thought the old Post Office near Guasti road would make a fabulous rail station if the building was repurposed. Pretty sure it's already adjacent to the existing Union Pacific line mentioned in the video.
In the distant past (10 years? 20?), I remember reading about some proposal to expand the runway in the manner you suggested, but that plan involved burying Haven Ave, much as Nandert suggested in the video when he contemplated a new terminal in the far future. I think Haven has become too important a corridor to close any portion of. Not to mention, anyone coming to the airport from CA-60 likely uses Haven Ave to access the airport from the south.
Came here for the Muck Tubes ( 21:25) and left very satisfied!!
34:50 I don't get it, why not have the Las Vegas and San Diego HSR lines branch off to the East of ONT instead?
(In other words -> I get why they would want Rancho Cucamonga as a terminal in a 1st phase, but why not disconnect it in a 2nd phase?
That way Ontario stn would eventually take a ~similar role to that of e g the Amsterdam airport stn)
Such an impressive level of thought and care put into your videos. Love 'em. Even though I'm not very familiar with the area at all.
39:48 The heavy rail junction you mention here is actually already mostly built out, in the same way the C/K junction near LAX was when the C Line was originally built. Not that it would make an extension all the way to Mt. SAC make any more sense but something to keep in mind for any future planning.
This video is amazing, thank you for creating! Watched all the way though.
The funny thing is, given the extra time it takes the train to get from Upland to Rancho, the A Line extension would take exactly the same net amount of time as the shuttle.
I'm not sure about an A Line Extension. The line is slow and plagued by delays already (especially slow in Long Beach, Washington and Flower, and Highland Park is TERRIBLE). I would love to see San Bernardino build a separate line from Montclair to Ontario International but to the same standards as the A Line to provide local and express service. Once the A Line is significantly improved, then the 2 lines can merge into a HUGE light rail line from Long Beach to Ontario.
LA Metro and OmniTrans need to figure out how to reduce redundancies once the A Line is extended to Montclair. I expect ridership at the Pomona, and Claremont Stations to fall once they're served by the A Line. If the A Line is extended to Ontario International, boardings at Montclair and Upland would fall too. There's no reason to take a more expensive, less frequent service unless the time savings are significant.
@PASH3227 Light rail, as implemented, is really the wrong mode for LA in general. The city is too sprawling to have so much mixed traffic and grade crossings. I think an RER style network or automated light metro is the best option. Possibly both with two overlapping networks.
Yup!!! Let's hope Sepulveda selects the proposed Vancouver skytrain like technology and we will have that option built in for future considerations. @@kirkrotger9208
A direct regional rail link from LAUS to ONT would be fantastic for ONT's growth and for the entire L.A. Metro area. Getting from LAX to DTLA is never going to be easy and the environmental impacts of LAX are terrible.
I propose they fast track the Los Angeles Union-Rancho Cucamunga California HSR project to ASAP because that would enable both HSR to Los Angeles-Ontario International Airport and L.A. Union Station to be connected to Las Vegas. And since the corridor is basically just getting electrified and double-tracked with grade separation without any crazy long or expensive tunnel sections lord knows SOME form of government could find the cash for it, especially if it was tied in with Metrolink electrification the same way the Caltrain line between San Francisco and San Jose is a joint effort that benefits both rail operators...
Beefing up San Bernardino service for eventual HSR service would be GREAT!
CAHSR is so inefficient as is that it'll be a miracle when the IOS (from Bakersfield to Merced) opens!
@@PASH3227 Sadly I agree! And yet the Central Valley, Palmdale/Lancaster and I.E. regions are the fastest growing in the state (for obvious housing cost/sprawl space reasons) so maybe it will be less about connecting them to SF and LA and more with themselves soon enough... Or maybe connecting these cheaper cities with jobs in LA or the Bay a few times a week commuting via HSR or beefed up regional rail... Even with its flaws I hope most of the project can be salvaged... It's good on paper, just really really messy in reality...
As someone who has always lived close to Ont, it is an amazing and easy airport. I have always been under the impression that 4 terminals was always them plan since the terminals are named 2 and 4 right now with the between them like you suggested and one being where the original terminals were.
6:01 Except OAK is now San Francisco Bay Oakland International Airport
I live less than 9 miles south of Ontario International Airport, and it has been a Godsent for me! I can't remember the last time I flew out of Los Angeles International Airport, and I hope to keep it that way! I normally fly domestically out of Ontario to locations such as Denver, Hawaii, Florida, and Las Vegas, however, in 2018, China Airlines started a daily flight to Asia out of Ontario! This was the icing on the cake!! Before China Airlines made its presence in Ontario, I had to make that dreaded 1.5 hours to 2 hours car ride from the Ontario area to LAX to fly to Asia. Now, flying to Asia is like a car ride to the shopping mall! In fact, the Ontario Mills Mall is actually farther than my drive to Ontario Airport. When I was flying out of LAX, I had to burden my family members or friends for a ride to LAX but now, since Ontario Airport is literally down the street, I can affordably take an Uber to Ontario Airport to fly international destinations. OMG, flying back from Asia is awesome because China Airlines arrives alone and you get through customs and immigration so quickly! I have mixed emotions because I want to keep this hidden gem all to myself but I want this great airport to grow to meet its full potential!
I live right next to KSNA and it is wild for such a small place, to have 6 fewer gates than ONT but double the pax... yikes.
Awesome video! As the main spotter for that airport, I am really glad it's starting to get notice.
Excellent work !!! So thorough, so logical. Thank you for making this.
6:07 - Oakland airport renamed itself to San Francisco Bay Area Oakland Airport recently for the same reasons
Yeah, there was a huge hissy fit over that.
Back in the ‘70s, there was an Air National Guard detachment stationed at ONT. We used to go to the east end of the runway (you could do that back then) and watch the ANG conduct flight operations at night. The ANG that was stationed there flew F-4 Phamtoms and they were fun watch take off. That engine sound and the after burners were just “bitchin” to watch. Gave me chills every time. Ahh, memories!
Someone needs to put this man on the CAHSR board
hell yeah i know what i'm doing instead of working today
Your presentation style just kills as always
My only note on the Palmdale/Burbank question you brought up at the end is that you kinda made a big deal about how Burbank was capacity limited due to curfews and a limit on the number of gates back in Ep 2. As such with the HSR, you could argue that Palmdale could be a decent "remote" expansion plan for Burbank, allowing for more overall gates and capacity for northern LA County.
The convenience of a short drive or bus ride will always beat cheaper tickets. Long beach and Burbank cost more than LAX yet locals love these airports because they're so much easier to travel through than LAX.
Why would someone who lives and works in the San Fernando Valley (also including Burbank and Glendale) drive or take a train all the way out to Palmdale when they can take a quick uber to Burbank? Why invest in expanding an airport in a sparsely populated desert community when there's not a huge population to tap into? Palmdale isn't growing like Rancho Cucamonga and Ontario. Burbank can tap into millions of residents and workers within 10 miles of their airport. Palmdale and Lancaster combined have less than half a million. Also, Palmdale Airport is 50 miles from Burbank Airport.
Palmdale will be great for the few who live and work in Palmdale. That's it!
Palmdale is growing really fast too! If you watch the video and notice those round irrigated areas east of the existing airport? That's is/was the site of the planned but unbuilt Palmdale Intercontinental Super Airport planned in the 1960's and then planned again in the 1990's... I personally still think it's a great idea to build it and connect it with L.A. via the California HSR and High Desert Corridors. What this video failed to mention was the growth patterns in Palmdale/Lancaster and I.E. are the fastest in California outside the Central Valley while the fastest shrinking are the cores of LA and SFO/OAK... So maybe it's not so crazy after all to think both areas will develop larger flying patterns soon enough. Plus Burbank won't be adding much capacity if at all... It just's a modernization project not an expansion so it will always remain slot limited...
@@PASH3227 I thought I.E. and Palmdale-Lancaster were the fastest growing areas outside the Central Valley? Is that not true?
My semi-serious ridiculously expensive transit proposal for Ontario Airport: Extend the D line at grade along the El Monte Busway, tunneled below Garvey Ave, in the median of I-10 (with REM style enclosed stations w/ platform screen doors to control noise), and finally elevated above the UP Alhambra Subdivision until it reaches the airport.
Ontario California has a reputation and history worth keeping. ONT all the way.
I believe "Terminal 1" counts as the old original (half-outdoor) terminal, now disused except for those two international arrival-only gates. (Those gates were a "modern" extension to the original building because they had jetways. The old ONT was mostly air stairs.) So any future terminals built east of T4 would presumably continue the sequential numbering, becoming T5 or T6. In addition, if they added a fourth terminal, it as likely they would redevelop T1 [raze, then build new] as build east of T4.
While we are contemplating westward extensions of your hypothetical APM toward the actual convention center, at least two other possible destinations merit consideration. A cluster of hotels sit along Vineyard Ave, which was the airport entrance before T2 and T4 opened. The hypothetical route toward the convention center may as well see if it can serve several with an intermediate stop. More recently, the city added a 12,000 seat arena. I am thinking it's not that much farther. Could be wrong.
Toyota Arena is about 2 miles NE of the airport, closer to Ontario Mills mall than the Convention Center (which is almost adjacent to the airport). The arena and mall would already be served by BRT to the airport intermodal center (as proposed by nandert). Not sure of the utility of connecting them all together.
@@EdgarEsc1972 Fair enough.
i have lived in rancho cucamonga all my life and i am BEGGING for a crumb of public transit and walkable communities. when i used to live in europe and on my vacations in asia, i cry everytime i can walk out the door and be on some form of public transit. here, i have to drive an hour in any direction to get to somewhere i like being. with that said i am excited for the immense potential for the inland empire. it's a shitty place to be, for now, but its MY shitty place. i just dont wanna grow old and still have to rely on a car to get myself around, if thats the case then i'm moving elsewhere for quality of life.
While most of this video is speculation SCORE will make Metrolink faster and the high speed rail is actually happening!
Excellent video!
Yay more Riverside line slander! I'm imagining the tunnel to Mt SAC college having an elevator that drops like 10 stories to reach the platform from their new transit center.
Wow! I was not expecting all this information, it was entertaining and informative and your explanation were easy to follow, thank you for making such a great video 👍
As a resident of the IE in San Bernardino. I whole heartly love everything about this. As a local I wish there would be rail connections with CSUSB, UCR, LLU and URedlands. We ride transit more than anyone and all the major transit misses these spots entirely-only bus connections for thousands of students.
Also, San Bernardino has huge issues with raves at the orange show, and the arrow line missed a huge change to divert traffic by connecting the arrow line into the Orange show.
Love to see this potential
best series on youtube
I've only been to Ontario International once, and it was because I took Metrolink to Rancho Cucamonga to get to the Ontario Carvana to buy my car. But there's no bus lines that connect out there - except for the bus that goes to ONT. I took thwt express bus to terminal 1 and immediately walked on foot out of the airport and to the Carvana a mile or so away. There's no safe or demarkated pedestrian entrance or exit to ONT. So I had to jaywalk and step over landscaping to get out.
The
"Do not step on grass" signs are right next to the well worn paths that should be stairs if they actually gave a damn about pedestrian safety.
It's a great airport. I used to fly to and from my home in the San Gabriel valley to school on the east coast. I must've flown out of ONT several dozens of times. I went back there a couple of years ago and was surprised at the new facilities. I even went back and drove by the OLD terminal, with its outdoor baggage claims.
I remember stepping off the airplane and the first thing was the powerful stink of the dairy farms and stock yards south of the airport. Always made me laugh: am I in Texas or California? It was also awesome to leave the east coast with its 20º F temperatures and arrive to a warm and sunny 70º F with green trees all around.
Just came across the video and have to say this is brilliant: one thing i'd love to add to your CHSR/ Brightline routing would be to give Downtown San Bernardino station dual level bottom level a mix of CHSR + Brightline las Vegas that would use a Large highspeed rail X junction, North spur to a Cajon Pass base tunnel and onwards towards Brightline Las Vegas and maybe Salt lake city; with an additional tunnel to pull Amtrak long distance train into the downtown area. A southern spur connecting to San Diego, and a Eastern Spur onwards to Phoenix and beyond giving your LA Imperial Airport a connection to Imperial Valley and beyond. This would probably remove more Short haul flight options but would probably open up more expansion to long distance flights including giving it an even greater encampment area. overall great video :) I will have to look at more of your videos now :)
Ontario and John Wayne mad underrated airports
I love how well thought out everything is, from the alignments to the intermodal station! I wish my city had enough growth to consider this level of airport rapid transit service, but unfortunately even our airport bus line that runs seven times a day is on the chopping block. Keep up the great work!
Yes, build the A Line extension! And ugh, SB County needs to wake up and realize how ridiculously stupid the musk tunnels are.
When ONT builds new terminals they should definitely look at renumbering them. Maybe switch to letters to avoid confusion between new/old numbers. I'm sure whatever they come up with will be less confusing than LAX's renumbering plan.
Please do an update in regards to OC Public Transport :((
this is incredibly well done. Great job!
These videos are great mate. Just wasted way too much time when I’m suppose to working watching them
I literally grew up at ONT from the 70s to 90s. My dad was part of the original joint police/fire operation controlled by LAX. I used to travel regularly from ONT to wherever I needed to go (I grew up in Ontario and went to college at Redlands) using its original tiny terminal on the west end. I now live in Sacramento and it's really unfortunate that the terrible traffic in SoCal makes Long Beach and Burbank my current choices. Burbank actually provides a compelling example of what's possible, almost by accident. I land at the airport, walk across the street, grab a 20-minute train for about $7, and I'm in downtown LA's central rain terminal. Contrary to popular belief, I can literally get all over LA without car using this strategy.
ONT is still suffering from the underutilization and mistreatment under its LAX ownership, and the parochial disrespect of the Inland Empire as a vast wasteland east of LA. Its potential has also been exacerbated by the foolish decision (in my opinion) of California's HSR project to emphasize a connection between LA and San Francisco, something nobody needs, rather than Las Vegas, San Diego, LA and Sacramento, the areas with the most projected need for housing and economic activity involving physical goods.
Your video really demonstrates something I was corrected on early in my government career - letting reason and logic creep into your decision making. A funny example of this is the way ONT's second runway was built - LAX said no, and the ONT folks simply ignored them and built it guerrilla-style without any permission. I have no idea how they pulled it off but my dad was quite proud...he and fellow firefighters were out there pouring concrete themselves, LOL.
truly incredible work awesome job on this
Fun fact: a few years ago, someone tried to book a business trip for me from Toronto to San Fransisco, but booked Ontario (ONT) to SF instead.
I 100% agree with the name change.
from the ie, would hate los angeles imperial airport lol, but i appreciate the effort. Ontario definitely needs an update to its terminals though as they’re stuck in 2003.
Most airports in the United States are stuck in the 1970s. Some in the '50s. For airport infrastructure in this country, those two "new" terminals remain problem-free. (It was unlucky for them that they were designed right before 2001 changed the way designers designed airports.)
@@johnmaster3748problem free? My horn is getting worn out from all the idiots who nearly hit me. You can't mix departures with arrivals! It doesn't work.
@@michaelkelly8212 You are talking about the streetscape? Not the building?
29:15 the part where this video becomes awesome!!
I freaking love your videos bro!
As a resident and frequent flyer for ONT. the one thing that baffles me is that for an international airport there is only like two restrooms with one stall for the men it would be nice to not be waiting in a queue after hours of waiting
What is crazy is that an airport like Porto airport has double the movements and 15 million passengers with one runway alone and Ontario has talks about getting a third runway despite having half of operations and passengers
I have used the visitor pass to greet family at the gate. It was super easy to get and very quick. FYI it is also available at Sea-Tac
Lost my mind at the Tesla tunnel I wish the inland empire would stop treating itself like a group of small towns and start investing in proper rail and rapid transit projects
I don't know how much traffic the lines get but consider that the upper practical limit for intercity/hsr type service (eg 2 narrow doors per 25m car and heavy luggage) is 8 trains per hour per platform track. And that is already stretching it. So if both regional and hsr tracks are to be used to capacity 2 platform tracks per direction each will be necessary at least.
With provisions for those the station should be planned for 8 heavy rail tracks in addition to LRT, BRT and rideshare/taxi.
This is magnificent. Can LA Metro hire you?
Would love to see a SAN episode :)
Every time I hear the word “Ontario”, I think of the Canadian Province.
As do Canadians... Just like La Canada-Flintridge even if its named after the Spanish family that had the name... Then again L.A. is the third largest Canadian city by population when you count ex-pats... If any city deserves to have its own "Little Canada" it would probably be Ontario for obvious reasons..
@@stickynorthinteresting most Canadians i know go live in Arizona or Florida.
I believe Ontario, California was named after Ontario, Canada because that's where the Chaffey brothers were from.
The Chaffey brothers were settlers in southern California that helped establish cities and institutions like USC in the area in the late 1800s. During this time period, southern California saw many settlers and immigrants from Britain, the northeast U.S., Canada, San Francisco, and even Australia, as there was active maritime movement between California, South America, Australia, the U.S. east coast, and Britain. Many also came overland--especially from the midwest U.S. from the Chicago area, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Indiana etc.
Great video, but I'm not entirely sure that the passenger traffic is there for ONT, in particular, front cabin/business flyers. In particular, I think that ONT has a lot of potential if they could become the Stansted type operation where the LCC/ULCCs are concentrated. Allegiant, Avelo, Breeze, Frontier, and Spirit should be able to find good success at ONT and I'm surprised that Allegiant and Spirit don't fly there already. Internationally, they should be courting French Bee, Norse Atlantic, Viva Aerobus, and Zipair. Certainly the attractiveness for cost sensitive flyers is improved by more transit options as well.
Orange County has long been derided as an urban area without a center, without a downtown. But nowadays, there are a few concantenations of high-rise offices, apartments, and hotels--and these are clustered within a few miles of SNA (near the junction of 405/55). These high rises comprise the closest thing OC has to an urban center. I'm not sure how much of that was there 20 years ago. Surely, OC had enough residential wealth to attract those services without the airport, but I think it likely that this pseudo-central business district emerged where it did because of proximity to the airport. SNA certainly does not lack for front-cabin ticket buyers, which is probably why it has the second-highest passenger count of the five airports. Your point argues that ONT will be unable to drive the kind of passenger traffic that will fuel the airline growth necessary to fuel investment in regional transit. But the reverse is also true. With fast and regular service to DTLA, ONT can mitigate some of the reasons those front cabin passengers prefer LAX. Moreover, the presence of the airport makes that immediate location the most likely area in the whole IE for a psuedo-central business district to sprout up. One that those front-cabin passengers want to reach. It's hard to envision that now, in part because the IE lacks the concentrated wealth of Orange County. But it's also hard to envision the HSR actually being finished, either. The low-cost carriers you mention may make a good strategy for the near-term. But ONT should not cede to LAX the mainline carriers either. In time, I suspect the IE's appeal for those front cabin dollars will increase. How much time? Not this decade for sure!
Oh it’s THERE!!!!!!!
@@johnmaster3748 The Inland Empire should lean into Ontario International Airport, since it's a HUGE employer for both passenger and freight planes. Combined with the High Speed Rail service coming, Ontario and Rancho Cucamonga WILL be the IE's central business district, like how Irvine is becoming OC's.
Having "LA" in the IATA airport code would make the airport name much more intuitive for people not from Los Angeles.
"LAT" is available ("LAO" and "LAN" are not) and would work as a summary of "Los Angeles Ontario International Airport".
I would totally vote for LA Imperial airport. People always get confused when I say I'm flying to Ontario, CA. They assume Ontario, Canada.
The key to an airports success, is its ability to connect passengers to a wide array of flights, while attracting local passengers to the the array of numerous flights to nonstop destinations. If you have a large network of incoming flights, with connections to that destination, while supporting the local people. This is why huge hubs like ATL, DFW, DEN, ORD, JFK, LAX, work .
I only knew Ontario in Canada because I'm from Spain, then I discovered this airport in Maps when I was watching Rancho Cucamonga HSR station location and it was quite funny and shocking, you all can hate me now, sorry😅
That said, I think that you're right at everything from the name change to the station interchange👌
ONT has the potential, we must get them the infrastructure they need
Would love for Ontario to become for LA what OAK is to SF - a well transit connected alternative.
The problem with ontario airport vs lax is the ticktes or airfares are more expensive and not too many international flights, so who wants to fly from ontario they should star using more inter flights and cheaper airfares.
Just flew there!
Whatever your proposal also make LAX easier to access for people in SGV&IE