"I love this picture of the Rogue, how they have scars on their faces." Also a left arm that's been severed at the elbow. That guy's not having a good time.
Great video and review! It’s amazing how many imaginative creators, game writers, and game masters over the years have rewritten, added, subtracted, and constant reinvented fantasy role playing- game rules ranging from 10 to 10,000 pages of pure imagination! Game on!
The back of the book for Black Hack is what interests me, the charts, dungeons and all of that is what drew my attention. Bullet points with the most basic key word prompts and reminders (something I am constantly trying to reduce down and push my own memory of my own maniacal, pacings and fevered NPC conversations/Expressions etc.) White Hack, The Deft, The Strong and The Wise has a nice ring to it. I noticed they expand on what those can be in the text and their suggestions are good - Bounty Hunter, Brigand, Knight etc, I like the Auction/chase rule example a lot. It seems a little like a simplified version of Cthulhu 7ed's chase rules. That Bestiary is very close to mine! I think I prefer White Hack on the whole, I like the ability to develop those classes in your own group ( oh and the cost of miracles is interesting) and it looks like something my group would play longer and get more from in the long run... but I do like those charts in Black Hack.... Great vid!
Also there’s so many more hacks of the Black Hack, like Mecha Hack, Cthulhu Hack and Black Sword Hack, supplements like the class hack, race hack, a black bestiary… we play a mash up of Black Hack and Black Pudding a fantastic zine! (because we don’t like the armour dice rules in black hack).
The White Hack's spell system reminds me of an idea I had for an experimental game system where health, currency and experience points were all interchangeable. Basically the player characters would have an overall pool of an abstract resource that could, in a pinch, be used for healing but doing so would eat into their collective budget for lodging, equipment and levelling. It would probably need some work to get the balance right but making every action into something that could impact on the other party members down the line could make for some interesting dynamics
"This product is currently sold out." Prof, please reconsider your book/rules review policy. This is the second time you have made a compelling case for rules that are no longer available.
Was looking for someone else's view on these a while ago. 👍 There are three progressively larger editions of Whitehack and two editions of Black Hack. I know people comment a bit the BH editions, but haven't seen much comparison between the WH editions.
I have a copy of 2e & 3e WH, never had a chance to play either but read thru both extensively. Main difference is 3e weighs way more in on GM advice, with a large section on how to run the game, + more optional systems & rules. However, they cut the sample adventure + setting (Mehrstam is apparently planning this as a separate product going forward). Page count b/w the 2 editions is deceptive, as they tweaked the layout to be less dense. Other than that the 2 editions are the same content wise.
@@ivancarabano no it’s not experience points for killing the goblin like in D&D, it’s abstract system of “experiences” a bit like milestones I guess, completing an quest/adventure, a particularly brutal boss fight, overcoming a deadly threat, and failing so spectacularly and in a dramatic fashion that everyone agrees to it.
Having already read both, my thoughts on each: Black Hack turned me off, specifically it was how they balanced the PC classes. If you do some minimal number crunching, it is obvious that there is no point to play anything other than a Warrior or Cleric... Thief is gimped & wizard is even more gimped. Obviously Black Hack is not the 1st D&D variant to have these issues, but it also has the distinction of creating all new mechanics for each class, so I'm a lot less forgiving than I am of some retro-clone who just copy/pasted the problem from 1e. And nobody get brazen with me Re: balance is not necessarily good game design... that doesn't really apply to nerfing Theives so even on a sneak attack they will never do more damage than a 3rd level warrior. The BH has a lot of those kinds of problems... and they are indicative of thowing out rule-of-cool ideas without actually playtesting them. Missed in the video was BH's distinguishing feature of tracking resources like armor & ammunition with dice... probably it's single biggest mechanical contribution to the OSR space. This is a very take-it-or-leave-it feature, some folks really love it, others do not. If you think rolling to see if you still have arrows sounds dumb as hell, you are NOT going to enjoy playing the Black Hack. White Hack on the other hand is very obviously well playtested & thought out. My favorite mechanical bits is actually how Mehrstam took the class concept & changed it into something where you can have a wide variety of characters... eg. Wise don't have to be wizards... you can have a Wise knight character for example. You can do the same with the other 2 core classes as well... fireball throwing mage? That could be a Strong character with magical theming. Illusionist? Might actually play more to type as a Deft. Swashbuckler archetype vs. Conan-clone? Deft will serve you well there too. I'll also mention that the book actually provides 3 additional character types in the supplementary rules towards the back... thus giving players more options. WH's version of skills, groups, also really needs a mention. The system in a lot of ways more resembles what you would expect from a more narrative driven game than the classic D&D experience... groups are basically designed to drive at the table world building, with active player participation vs. DM fiat. While I think this kind of thing is great, I can see it being the biggest turn-off from the ruleset.
The largest flaw of WH is the Wise, though. You lose HP for using your abilities that can not be healed except natural healing. How does that feel awesome? I'm a "Wise Paladin" means, you're just dying every time you use your abilities.
@@urfaes6878 White Hack is very Grimdark. Obviously the author intends for Miracles as they are called in this system to be more than just the usual safe, dull, limited & ultimately unimaginative stat block most are accustomed to. The “spells” in this system are more open & flexible but do require those involved to be more imaginative which certainly can be an issue for the imagination challenged.
@@michaelmorrissey5631 While an interesting observation, there is nothing grimdark about Whitehack. As far as I know, games that are grimdark don't immediately inflict consequences such as Warhammer, DCC or, even, Stormbringer. The mention about the Miracles is true, but the ultimate result is you get punished for being you. For example, let's say you use "Pyrotechnics." You cast a basic firebolt and take 1 HP. You cast a flaming blast and take 1d6. Your character can not magically heal that damage unlike every other character in the game. The price of your Miracle is literal punishment. That's not exactly grimdark.
I think my favorite Black Hack/White Hack style system is Stay Frosty. It's an aliens game, where instead of the roll under from Black Hack they do roll over. So when rolling stats, you want to roll low. At 10 strength, the roll required is 10+. I have the players write "+" after all their stats, and all confusion vanishes. From that nucleus, I, of course, Calvin Ball the hell out of it and play D&D that way. :-)
As a GM I strongly believe that systems like black hack or dungeon world where players make all the rolls are much much better than traditional systems. With those systems my work as a GM is only tell what is happening , I don't have to look for charts or even read the dice, players just tell me if they hit or miss and npcs act according to that.
Oh, yes! Symbaroum, Cypher, and Talisman Adventures likewise have the players roll for the majority of things. I don't mind either way, but it does speed things up and take some extra load off the GM. I like it!
@Hexproof Project >Roll Under makes it so that DMs must always be on their toes narration/prep and improv wise, since there is no hidden information going on, at least when talking about the rolls. i don't see how that follows.
@Hexproof Project it's not about that. As a GM all my rolls are open, and I prefer games in wich the players roll all the dice. I've been running games for more than 30 years, and my combat descriptions are much much better when the players roll and I only have to read the results.
Hey Professor, you should do a video on what Brahm Stoker's Dracula can teach us about Dnd. I think there's some good stuff there, especially on how to use travel.
From those two my favourite system is Black Sword Hack ;) It took the best from Black Hack and gave lots of clever ideas inspired by Moorcock's Elric (strugle between order and chaos, inteligent artefact weapons). Depleted Doom Die for powers and combat moves, instead of classes there are hero origins, interesting demon and spirit powers, heroes are powerful but frigile.
Personally, I like monster lore. It helps you roleplay them. Even if the game is all combat, the monsters may have different motives, specilization, and culture/ecology, that affect their tactics. ... I will agree that the lore dosn't belong in the stat block though.
depending on why you think your players would balk, you have options: 1. if they are just really tied to the glamour of nat-20s, rule 20 as special 2. alternatively, use an 'inverted roll', where a success is either under skill/stat, or OVER difficulty. Preserves value of rolling high but still reducing the arithmetic by players. Does require reducing stat ranges though 3. Go the opposite direction, & do a bonus based system, ditching the 3d6 bell-curve score. Keeps to a roll-high system, while also ditching the doubled up stats. Also more copacetic to stacked modifiers. Drawback is how to assign bonuses... and you'll need to hack mechanics like 'inventory = str score' too. 4. ... just mod the system back to standard roll high with score + modifier. Grab the modifiers from some other D&D/OSR ruleset you already have. Drawback: players have 2 numbers per attribute to track, just like classic rulesets. Annoying but obviously proven tolerable.
I like the White Hack more, I like the bidding idea, but wouldn't it be easier if you just subtracted your bid from your score, then it would be a straight roll under system keeping it consistent with the rest of the game, Also, you can generate any number without dice (Already shared this on Captcorajus's channel) You can generate any number from 1 to X 1. You need two people, 2. Each person thinks of a number (based on the dice required, say a D20, so you would think of a number between 1 and 20) 3. You then add those numbers together, 4 "GOLDEN RULE": IF THE NUMBER EXCESSED THE HIGHEST NUMBER, YOU SUBTRACT THE HIGHEST NUMBER Example: Bob needs to roll a D20, and thinks of a number, a 14 John thinks of a 12, You add them together 14 + 12 = 26, that is higher than the limit (20 for a D20) so they subtract that number and have a 6, Simple, no need for a page of numbers Hey Professor do I get my PhD in game system design for this???
Have you ever looked into the "Macchiato Monsters"? It's a combination of the Black and White Hacks. I think it is neat, but I have yet to play or hear it be played.
I've never even seen anything about white hack, it looks too spartan for me, but the flexibility could be fun. The player facing thing could be interesting,
i really, really dislike it when dexterity gets to be both defence and ranged attack (you know, the type of attack where it's easier to avoid taking hits by virtue of distance alone)
@@brettmajeske3525 in Black Hack 1E ranged used to be Strength as well but the players all wanted a second stat so Strength didn't become the end-all stat for combat.
@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 it's double dipping. similar to how the squishiest class (MU) gets the worst AC (by virtue of not being allowed to wear armour - this is double dipping in the negative).
Professed dm I have a question about your combat system. I’ve been using it in my 5e campaign, and I’ve been having some trouble with movement. Say, for example, a player wants to attack a bandit with a melee but the bandit wants to run away. Does the player just miss? Surely that gets frustrating?
It depends on if the players got the jump on the bandit. If the bandit is taken by surprise, or if the bandit lost initiative, thats the game's way of showing that the bandit may want to run away, but may be unable to act before the players are already upon them. If you are not using turn based combat, and instead opting for simultaneous resolution, if the bandit wanted to use the disengage action when the player wanted to attack them, the player best be able to close the distance.
I feel that roll under adds to rather than reduces confusion a bit; as you need a method of modifying the Player's die roll to account for their opponent's prowess. I would prefer to give the player a definite target number to aim for, so that, as soon as they roll, they can see if they succeeded or failed. This you can do with roll-over systems. I also think that it is a good idea to tell the players their target numbers upfront, and to track the oppositions' hit points in the open. This is to reflect that the players' characters have access to more information (sight, sound, smell, etc) than the GM can easily give the players. This allows the players to see the concrete effects of their characters actions (especially in combat). But, to each their own, eh? 👍
I might grab them both and read them, not sure I'll play them, but would you say they are a good replacement for 5E? Also, could you cover some economical stuff next? Like, the cost of adventurers, the price to travel, things like that!
Black Hack or Old School Essentials? I been looking at both, I love the unified mechanics and armor absorption of TBH but you can't beat OSE's organization and overall simplicity. I almost want to take TBH's defense and armor and slap it on OSE.
So in Whitehack there are no rules for spellcasting, just tells you to make up your own rules. Not really useful. Just like the 'rule zero' doesn't make DnD 5e better. Making up your own rules and effects is an implied part of all RPGs.
So you agree that making up your own rules and effects is a part of TTRPGs, but you don't think it's useful for the rulebooks to inform GMs of this? Odd. You want them to just guess?
@@JimmiWazEre I think that his complaint is that the entire reason to buy a product is the expectation that someone else has already done the work for you, it's what you're paying them for. I know I would be disappointed if I opened a book and it read "just make stuff up lol."
@@tuomasronnberg5244 Sounds like a great racket... I should get started on my indie PDF for drivethru that does just that, pronto! ITS ABOUT THE NARRATIVE AND COLLABORATIVE STORYTELLING, MANNNNN! Give me 20 dollars, please
This would be good for a 1-shot, but there's not enoguh naritive potential for a campaign. ... I don't like spending HP for magic instead of mana or spellslots.
I bought white hack on this recommendation. I like it alright as a system... but I have a real gripe with how they write out their numbers in that book. They replace graph labels with a paragraph of text, which is very annoying.
With the question which is better I expected to hear which Professor Dungeon Master likes better. Now I want to know if you had to choose 1 which would it be?
I have both and I don't really like either. The Black Hack has lots of tables, but they have a silly/gonzo vibe that I don't appreciate. The White Hack (I have 3e in pdf) is written in a condescending tone that puts me off, and I find its visual presentation not "utilitarian", but bland, uninspiring and unmemorable. I realise that my impressions are skin-deep and don't say anything of how they play, but with so many excellent products around, skin-deep impressions can decide whether I want to invest more of my time, or turn to something else instead.
Both are kind of ugh. Whitehack makes Wise class characters to take HP damage that can not be healed by magic, so it almost enforces houseruling a mana system. Blackhack 2e is .... not Blackhack. If anything, I'd go with Blackhack 1e and avoid 2e. Still, a decent review overall, but, neither is all that good.
It's a roll under system.
"May all your rolls be 20s."
... I'm onto you.
I wish they would put these together so I could buy Grey Hack.
There is a combo hack of The Black Hack and Whitehack, but it's called... Macchiato Monsters. 😩
Blasphemy! You're calling on powers you cannot begin to comprehend!
@@taylorcampbell4204 :D
@@MrDavicimo Missed it by THAT much! 😂
*coughs* u mean like... machiatto monsters?
"I love this picture of the Rogue, how they have scars on their faces."
Also a left arm that's been severed at the elbow. That guy's not having a good time.
Nope. Very cool picture.
@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 I think Deathbringer escaped the dungeon again
Great video and review!
It’s amazing how many imaginative creators, game writers, and game masters over the years have rewritten, added, subtracted, and constant reinvented fantasy role playing- game rules ranging from 10 to 10,000 pages of pure imagination! Game on!
Thanks!
The back of the book for Black Hack is what interests me, the charts, dungeons and all of that is what drew my attention. Bullet points with the most basic key word prompts and reminders (something I am constantly trying to reduce down and push my own memory of my own maniacal, pacings and fevered NPC conversations/Expressions etc.)
White Hack, The Deft, The Strong and The Wise has a nice ring to it. I noticed they expand on what those can be in the text and their suggestions are good - Bounty Hunter, Brigand, Knight etc, I like the Auction/chase rule example a lot. It seems a little like a simplified version of Cthulhu 7ed's chase rules. That Bestiary is very close to mine!
I think I prefer White Hack on the whole, I like the ability to develop those classes in your own group ( oh and the cost of miracles is interesting) and it looks like something my group would play longer and get more from in the long run... but I do like those charts in Black Hack.... Great vid!
Also there’s so many more hacks of the Black Hack, like Mecha Hack, Cthulhu Hack and Black Sword Hack, supplements like the class hack, race hack, a black bestiary… we play a mash up of Black Hack and Black Pudding a fantastic zine! (because we don’t like the armour dice rules in black hack).
Cthulhu hack is great, I like to run it adding some skills from mythos world to the players and works great for small campaigns.
I have Black Sword Hack. It's awesome!
What's more, the second edition of Cthulhu Hack is kickstarting right now!
Don't forget "Barbarians of the Ruined Earth", which is *also* a TBH Hack!
Wasted Hack! Like Gamma World.
The White Hack's spell system reminds me of an idea I had for an experimental game system where health, currency and experience points were all interchangeable.
Basically the player characters would have an overall pool of an abstract resource that could, in a pinch, be used for healing but doing so would eat into their collective budget for lodging, equipment and levelling.
It would probably need some work to get the balance right but making every action into something that could impact on the other party members down the line could make for some interesting dynamics
Feels like a common theme for OSR is wonderful tables and the usability of content in more then one system
Both look interesting, definitely want to checkout the Black Hack. Thanks PDM!
You're welcome!
"This product is currently sold out." Prof, please reconsider your book/rules review policy. This is the second time you have made a compelling case for rules that are no longer available.
Sorry. When I shot this video months ago it was not sold out.
Was looking for someone else's view on these a while ago. 👍 There are three progressively larger editions of Whitehack and two editions of Black Hack. I know people comment a bit the BH editions, but haven't seen much comparison between the WH editions.
I have a copy of 2e & 3e WH, never had a chance to play either but read thru both extensively. Main difference is 3e weighs way more in on GM advice, with a large section on how to run the game, + more optional systems & rules. However, they cut the sample adventure + setting (Mehrstam is apparently planning this as a separate product going forward). Page count b/w the 2 editions is deceptive, as they tweaked the layout to be less dense. Other than that the 2 editions are the same content wise.
I LOVE the White Hack! It is my favorite D&D book and variant!
Cool!
Macchiato Monsters should have made an appearance since it's intentionally a blend of both of these.
Never head of it. Will investigate.
@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 It's not bad, though I prefer WH by itself. Or Crown, which is a kind of a White Hack hack.
Oooh, wish you had had WH 3rd ed, available for review, it's (as I understand, I've not read 2nd ed) a pretty substantial revision.
I just found out about it. I taped this months ago. I'm always too late. Or too early. Lol
@Rolling Crits Extra classes: Those are in 2e as well
Sorry to correct you prof. but in Black Hack you level up when you’ve collect enough experiences equal to your level, not the full 10 xp row.
Oops. I stand corrected.
So.... one fight with a regular goblin and you get to level 2?
@@ivancarabano no it’s not experience points for killing the goblin like in D&D, it’s abstract system of “experiences” a bit like milestones I guess, completing an quest/adventure, a particularly brutal boss fight, overcoming a deadly threat, and failing so spectacularly and in a dramatic fashion that everyone agrees to it.
I really love the book design of the Whitehack.
Having already read both, my thoughts on each:
Black Hack turned me off, specifically it was how they balanced the PC classes. If you do some minimal number crunching, it is obvious that there is no point to play anything other than a Warrior or Cleric... Thief is gimped & wizard is even more gimped. Obviously Black Hack is not the 1st D&D variant to have these issues, but it also has the distinction of creating all new mechanics for each class, so I'm a lot less forgiving than I am of some retro-clone who just copy/pasted the problem from 1e.
And nobody get brazen with me Re: balance is not necessarily good game design... that doesn't really apply to nerfing Theives so even on a sneak attack they will never do more damage than a 3rd level warrior. The BH has a lot of those kinds of problems... and they are indicative of thowing out rule-of-cool ideas without actually playtesting them.
Missed in the video was BH's distinguishing feature of tracking resources like armor & ammunition with dice... probably it's single biggest mechanical contribution to the OSR space. This is a very take-it-or-leave-it feature, some folks really love it, others do not. If you think rolling to see if you still have arrows sounds dumb as hell, you are NOT going to enjoy playing the Black Hack.
White Hack on the other hand is very obviously well playtested & thought out. My favorite mechanical bits is actually how Mehrstam took the class concept & changed it into something where you can have a wide variety of characters... eg. Wise don't have to be wizards... you can have a Wise knight character for example. You can do the same with the other 2 core classes as well... fireball throwing mage? That could be a Strong character with magical theming. Illusionist? Might actually play more to type as a Deft. Swashbuckler archetype vs. Conan-clone? Deft will serve you well there too. I'll also mention that the book actually provides 3 additional character types in the supplementary rules towards the back... thus giving players more options.
WH's version of skills, groups, also really needs a mention. The system in a lot of ways more resembles what you would expect from a more narrative driven game than the classic D&D experience... groups are basically designed to drive at the table world building, with active player participation vs. DM fiat. While I think this kind of thing is great, I can see it being the biggest turn-off from the ruleset.
White Hack's interaction between attributes and classes sounds a lot like Pillars of Eternity. Very cool
The largest flaw of WH is the Wise, though. You lose HP for using your abilities that can not be healed except natural healing. How does that feel awesome? I'm a "Wise Paladin" means, you're just dying every time you use your abilities.
@@urfaes6878 White Hack is very
Grimdark. Obviously the author intends for Miracles as they are called in this system to be more than just the usual safe, dull, limited & ultimately unimaginative stat block most are accustomed to. The “spells” in this system are more open & flexible but do require those involved to be more imaginative which certainly can be an issue for the imagination challenged.
@@michaelmorrissey5631 While an interesting observation, there is nothing grimdark about Whitehack. As far as I know, games that are grimdark don't immediately inflict consequences such as Warhammer, DCC or, even, Stormbringer.
The mention about the Miracles is true, but the ultimate result is you get punished for being you. For example, let's say you use "Pyrotechnics." You cast a basic firebolt and take 1 HP. You cast a flaming blast and take 1d6. Your character can not magically heal that damage unlike every other character in the game.
The price of your Miracle is literal punishment. That's not exactly grimdark.
@@urfaes6878 Don't they also heal faster than the other classes though?
I think my favorite Black Hack/White Hack style system is Stay Frosty. It's an aliens game, where instead of the roll under from Black Hack they do roll over. So when rolling stats, you want to roll low. At 10 strength, the roll required is 10+. I have the players write "+" after all their stats, and all confusion vanishes.
From that nucleus, I, of course, Calvin Ball the hell out of it and play D&D that way. :-)
The Black Hack is super solid! Happy to hear theres so much excitement for OSR games these days.
Looks great. Good work as usual, Prof.
Thanks!
As a GM I strongly believe that systems like black hack or dungeon world where players make all the rolls are much much better than traditional systems. With those systems my work as a GM is only tell what is happening , I don't have to look for charts or even read the dice, players just tell me if they hit or miss and npcs act according to that.
But I like rolling dice!
@Hexproof Project >making monster rolls behind the DM screen
that's where you got this all wrong.
Oh, yes! Symbaroum, Cypher, and Talisman Adventures likewise have the players roll for the majority of things.
I don't mind either way, but it does speed things up and take some extra load off the GM. I like it!
@Hexproof Project >Roll Under makes it so that DMs must always be on their toes narration/prep and improv wise, since there is no hidden information going on, at least when talking about the rolls.
i don't see how that follows.
@Hexproof Project it's not about that. As a GM all my rolls are open, and I prefer games in wich the players roll all the dice.
I've been running games for more than 30 years, and my combat descriptions are much much better when the players roll and I only have to read the results.
I love both of these systems. In fact, I believe that I am a roll-under junkie
Then Black Hack is the game for you. Brilliant mechanic.
Hey Professor, you should do a video on what Brahm Stoker's Dracula can teach us about Dnd. I think there's some good stuff there, especially on how to use travel.
Possibly. I will cogitate on that one. Seems like a Halloween themed episode.
I have heard of both of these but never really looked into them they sound amazing.
Thanks for commenting. Enjoy them!
@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 got a response from the professor; now I have to get them.
i like the "face to face" system
I really need a physical copy of Black Hack!
It's awesome!
that chase system was confusing, i'd need to see it played out in front of me just to understand
Did not know about these, thank you , good info , thanks prof !
I'm getting white hack 3rd edition for Christmas. Looking forward to it :)
Merry Christmas!
From those two my favourite system is Black Sword Hack ;)
It took the best from Black Hack and gave lots of clever ideas inspired by Moorcock's Elric (strugle between order and chaos, inteligent artefact weapons).
Depleted Doom Die for powers and combat moves, instead of classes there are hero origins, interesting demon and spirit powers, heroes are powerful but frigile.
Black Hack 2e is pretty much everything I wanted from 5e when it was coming out 😹
The combat is 🙌❤️
Some great charts and a cool chase system!!!
I like the facing pages part.
It would be interesting to compare the black hack against something like DCC
Great vid! Maybe I'll pick these up!
Thanks, Ron!
these are so great! The topic, the experience, everything! I love both systems and play TBH regularly. White hack is coming my way soon ^^
Personally, I like monster lore. It helps you roleplay them. Even if the game is all combat, the monsters may have different motives, specilization, and culture/ecology, that affect their tactics.
...
I will agree that the lore dosn't belong in the stat block though.
I like the lethality of Black Hack, but those Monster Box Stats are hella noice!!
both very interesting thanks you PDM
Thanks!
My only problem with these is that they’re roll under systems. Otherwise, I think I could get myself and my players to jump on board.
My players are the same way. They love those natural 20s!
depending on why you think your players would balk, you have options:
1. if they are just really tied to the glamour of nat-20s, rule 20 as special
2. alternatively, use an 'inverted roll', where a success is either under skill/stat, or OVER difficulty. Preserves value of rolling high but still reducing the arithmetic by players. Does require reducing stat ranges though
3. Go the opposite direction, & do a bonus based system, ditching the 3d6 bell-curve score. Keeps to a roll-high system, while also ditching the doubled up stats. Also more copacetic to stacked modifiers. Drawback is how to assign bonuses... and you'll need to hack mechanics like 'inventory = str score' too.
4. ... just mod the system back to standard roll high with score + modifier. Grab the modifiers from some other D&D/OSR ruleset you already have. Drawback: players have 2 numbers per attribute to track, just like classic rulesets. Annoying but obviously proven tolerable.
@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 Couldn't you fix that by just subtracting the ability score from 20 and that is the number to roll over?
@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 Do you usually play 5e?
uh oh, the vest is on today! :)
I like the White Hack more,
I like the bidding idea, but wouldn't it be easier if you just subtracted your bid from your score, then it would be a straight roll under system keeping it consistent with the rest of the game,
Also, you can generate any number without dice (Already shared this on Captcorajus's channel)
You can generate any number from 1 to X
1. You need two people,
2. Each person thinks of a number (based on the dice required, say a D20, so you would think of a number between 1 and 20)
3. You then add those numbers together,
4 "GOLDEN RULE": IF THE NUMBER EXCESSED THE HIGHEST NUMBER, YOU SUBTRACT THE HIGHEST NUMBER
Example:
Bob needs to roll a D20, and thinks of a number, a 14
John thinks of a 12,
You add them together
14 + 12 = 26, that is higher than the limit (20 for a D20)
so they subtract that number and have a 6,
Simple, no need for a page of numbers
Hey Professor do I get my PhD in game system design for this???
Lol. I appreciate your dedication for sure.
@@DUNGEONCRAFT1
Come on, I contributed something significant to the larger body of knowledge,
All the other kids will think its Kool!!
Have you ever looked into the "Macchiato Monsters"? It's a combination of the Black and White Hacks. I think it is neat, but I have yet to play or hear it be played.
I've never even seen anything about white hack, it looks too spartan for me, but the flexibility could be fun. The player facing thing could be interesting,
H'ack h'ack ... Mars Attacks.
i really, really dislike it when dexterity gets to be both defence and ranged attack (you know, the type of attack where it's easier to avoid taking hits by virtue of distance alone)
I agree, and as anyone who has ever tried to shoot a bow, it is even more strength based than wielding a sword.
@@brettmajeske3525 in Black Hack 1E ranged used to be Strength as well but the players all wanted a second stat so Strength didn't become the end-all stat for combat.
Whyso?
@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 it's double dipping. similar to how the squishiest class (MU) gets the worst AC (by virtue of not being allowed to wear armour - this is double dipping in the negative).
@@doublekrpg Str for attack and Dex for defense sounds right to me.
black hack seems very good. thanks
Professed dm I have a question about your combat system. I’ve been using it in my 5e campaign, and I’ve been having some trouble with movement. Say, for example, a player wants to attack a bandit with a melee but the bandit wants to run away. Does the player just miss? Surely that gets frustrating?
It depends on if the players got the jump on the bandit. If the bandit is taken by surprise, or if the bandit lost initiative, thats the game's way of showing that the bandit may want to run away, but may be unable to act before the players are already upon them. If you are not using turn based combat, and instead opting for simultaneous resolution, if the bandit wanted to use the disengage action when the player wanted to attack them, the player best be able to close the distance.
Anyone--both PCs and NPCs--can elect to just run away. Unless there is something blocking them, they escape. Keeps PCs and favorite villains alive.
Family DM here. Kiiiinda worried the Wizard art ruins the game for families. Fix it with Sharpie maybe? Or is there more to be wary of?
Review Shadow of the Demonlord next! I think its up your alley.
Man, I wish they’d print up more Black Hack rule books.. 😔
It's been explained to me twice now, and I still don't understand that bidding system from WH. I do like that class breakdown, though.
Great stuff friend 👏 👍
So the Black Hack Kickstarter seems to have ended. Does anyone know where the book can be purchased now?
Currently out of print. The new Kickstarter is just now getting box stock so I'd keep an eye out for that to finish up for it to hit stores.
How do you like roll under systems instead of target numbers?
I feel that roll under adds to rather than reduces confusion a bit; as you need a method of modifying the Player's die roll to account for their opponent's prowess. I would prefer to give the player a definite target number to aim for, so that, as soon as they roll, they can see if they succeeded or failed. This you can do with roll-over systems.
I also think that it is a good idea to tell the players their target numbers upfront, and to track the oppositions' hit points in the open. This is to reflect that the players' characters have access to more information (sight, sound, smell, etc) than the GM can easily give the players. This allows the players to see the concrete effects of their characters actions (especially in combat).
But, to each their own, eh? 👍
Good question. My players won't go for it. They love natural 20s.
@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 You can get Critical Successes in Roll Under systems. It's usually when you roll a 1. But then Nat 20s become Crit failures.
@@euansmith3699 in Black Hack you do. For every level the enemy is above the character the player adds that to their roll, making it easier to fail.
@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 This might be the case if I suggested it at my table.
I might grab them both and read them, not sure I'll play them, but would you say they are a good replacement for 5E? Also, could you cover some economical stuff next? Like, the cost of adventurers, the price to travel, things like that!
Black Hack or Old School Essentials? I been looking at both, I love the unified mechanics and armor absorption of TBH but you can't beat OSE's organization and overall simplicity. I almost want to take TBH's defense and armor and slap it on OSE.
I have both but my own rules, Deathbringer, is closer to OSE.
@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 definitely asking for it for Xmas, maybe I'll hack the rules for only players to roll
Hack all the things!
Hack ALL the things?
Hack them all! The gods will know their own.
You know it, brother!
PDM, have you seen Macchiatto Monsters? It pretty much fuses these two
wonder how blue hack would fare
Awesome!
So in Whitehack there are no rules for spellcasting, just tells you to make up your own rules. Not really useful. Just like the 'rule zero' doesn't make DnD 5e better. Making up your own rules and effects is an implied part of all RPGs.
So you agree that making up your own rules and effects is a part of TTRPGs, but you don't think it's useful for the rulebooks to inform GMs of this? Odd. You want them to just guess?
@@JimmiWazEre I think that his complaint is that the entire reason to buy a product is the expectation that someone else has already done the work for you, it's what you're paying them for. I know I would be disappointed if I opened a book and it read "just make stuff up lol."
There are rules for spellcasting--and 3rd edition has more tools to help you--but I can understand if WH doesn't give you as much as you'd like.
It has rules. Spells cost HP and you make up your own. I think that's cool.
@@tuomasronnberg5244 Sounds like a great racket... I should get started on my indie PDF for drivethru that does just that, pronto! ITS ABOUT THE NARRATIVE AND COLLABORATIVE STORYTELLING, MANNNNN! Give me 20 dollars, please
This would be good for a 1-shot, but there's not enoguh naritive potential for a campaign.
...
I don't like spending HP for magic instead of mana or spellslots.
I've been running a campaign with barely any rules for 22 years.
@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 what system
Thanks.
I bought white hack on this recommendation. I like it alright as a system... but I have a real gripe with how they write out their numbers in that book. They replace graph labels with a paragraph of text, which is very annoying.
Excellent
Thanks for the reviews. Literally any of these old school rpgs is light years better than 5e.
Definitely prefer Black Hack. More creative adaption and more playable IMHO.
Did you upgrade your vest to +2 ? It used to be +1... ? 🤔
Comment for the algorithm.
Thanks! I appreciate your support!
Based on the tite, I expected this to be a highst game in a cyberpunk setting.
...
I.e. white hat computer hacking and black hat computer hacking
Why is it called White Hack?
A hack of White Box D&D
+2 vest! This must be serious.
With the question which is better I expected to hear which Professor Dungeon Master likes better. Now I want to know if you had to choose 1 which would it be?
Gahh, PDM you gotta STOP doing reviews! My wife has cut my purse strings, and my credit card is hot to the touch. :D Thanks for another great review!
Sorry. More reviews are on the way!
@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 Oh well, I will have to save my allowance.
So many OS games out there.
I have both and I don't really like either. The Black Hack has lots of tables, but they have a silly/gonzo vibe that I don't appreciate. The White Hack (I have 3e in pdf) is written in a condescending tone that puts me off, and I find its visual presentation not "utilitarian", but bland, uninspiring and unmemorable.
I realise that my impressions are skin-deep and don't say anything of how they play, but with so many excellent products around, skin-deep impressions can decide whether I want to invest more of my time, or turn to something else instead.
Thanks prof I think I'm gonna go buy a Black Hack, read it and never play!
Both are kind of ugh. Whitehack makes Wise class characters to take HP damage that can not be healed by magic, so it almost enforces houseruling a mana system. Blackhack 2e is .... not Blackhack. If anything, I'd go with Blackhack 1e and avoid 2e. Still, a decent review overall, but, neither is all that good.
#worldanvil
As a btw careful with your mic, it was peaking a lot in this video and was kind of uncomfortable for my ears :)
Sorry. I don't have professional sound equipment, so it's tough to level it out.
@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 no problem!
The White Hack....ugh. Ugly. No art? What were they thinking.....
Blocks & blocks of text. It might be a great game, but terrible design.
Agreed. I *know* it has good ideas in it, but I just can't bear to get through it.