RPG Review: Five Torches Deep! (
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- Опубліковано 21 жов 2024
- Episode #106: Professor DungeonMaster reviews Five Torches Deep, an OSR plug-in for 5th Edition. Classes, mechanics, layout and spells are all discussed.
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Music:
"Fury of the Dragon's Breath" by Peter Crowley
Bandcamp : petercrowley.ba...
This feels like how I think rules should be. No OP PCs, no rules to make the game unnecessarily difficult, nothing to slow down combat. It's just perfect.
We concur. Thanks for taking the time to comment. Happy gaming, Miguel!
“...which reminds me of something. I can’t remember what it is...”. 😂
You just became my favorite DM.
I am sitting down to write "What Star Wars Can Teach About D&D," to air in 3-4 weeks. Stay tuned. I'm going back there.
@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 Star Wars teaches D&D players to hate sand.
@@augustoluis6888 It's so coarse...and it gets everywhere!
Genius! A breath of fresh [dungeon] air!
Thanks for the informative review, professor!
I'm in!
I purchased the book based on your review. Its almost like the authors are Dungeon Craft fans...
These folks should have cut you an endorsement check - we just ordered our copy after watching this review!
Me Too
@@rogerfarley7823 Same :D
Me too.
Same.
Same.
Uh...When I started watching this my first thought was, "Why not just play ADnD".... As the video continued my thoughts turned to, "THIS IS GENIUS" and then I bought it. lol. Thank you for the review.
Wouldn't it be better to have Rogue as the class with Assassin/Bard/THIEF as your variants ?
@@nunyadambidniss that's what I've always thought. Seems to me Rogue is more of an archetype and Thief is a specialization within it. Like a thief is defined as someone who commits thievery. You can be a rogue without stealing.
This sounds almost exactly like the way you describe your own house rules. I love it!
Prof DM rolling a crit on that "casting shade check" @3:42. lol ;-)
Love this book professor
I bought both ICRPG and Five Torches deep because of you. You definitely have a longtime subscriber
Thanks, Michael. I'm glad those creators found a way onto your shelf. They and you deserve it.
This is a great example of less is more.
"... first thing I do is look at the character sheet..."
Exactly! 😊😍😚
Right!
Exactly what I used to do in game stores -- neat cover? Open book, turn to back page and look at character sheet. If it looks like a tax form, replace on shelf.
@@DM_Curtis That's actually a very efficient way of reading a game book.
I like that rule on sacrificing shields, gonna have to steal that one!
Raptor Jesus yup
ICRPG also does this but it allows you to sacrifice your shield to block ALL damage from one attack. This way you can get those iconic moments, like when a dragon breathes on you and it blasts your shield away but leaving you unharmed (for now)
Great review! I'm about to start a campaign with 6th graders, and this sounds like a great way to simplify things for them. Magic in 5e was especially confusing for my last group of kids. With this system I will spend a lot less time trying to explain spells. Thanks for this thorough explanation.
I actually yelled out "thats so cool!" when I saw the character sheet. I love how you move down and find the attributes related to the stats above it. There's a term for this in design, I believe its grouping by proximity, where things that are near each other are implied to be related.
As a follower of this channel, I've found that rewatching videos is very useful. I remember watching this video when it came out, but it's today when I found it useful.
PDM "I don't have time to write my own version of D&D"
Me: Can confirm. It is a lot of time. After a few months you look back at the stuff you were proud of and say "that's changing, that's getting cut, that's rough, rough, that's fine, that's changing, cut this, this, that. Phew." Think I'll just get 5 torches deep and write some notes in the margins.
I think Archetypes only get one of those abilities on the chart and then another at level 7. So they don't get all those abilities, they have to choose. At least thats how i read it. I could be wrong.
I like the game. I would greatly expand the Magic Mishap table though.
I'm a backer. The book is pretty short, like Moldvay B/ X.
The lay out of everything on 1 page is fantastic. Just print out a page and use as needed.
I think you're right.
That is correct, one feature at 3rd and 7th level. As a small houserule, I allow getting the archetype at first level with one feature chosen. Still less powerful than Sword Coast Superfriends...I meant D&D 5th edition.
You got me at the bard. I always thought that playing songs for buffs should be a rest/downtime activity, while in combat you should do fighting stuff. I'll definitely take a look at this game!
Thanks Professor! as I move away from more modern colorful kids friendly games and Delve into the old school Deadly & Desperate stuff i've come to realize i've been a grim dark fan since i started watching your channel. This is so refreshing and I'll be moving more into the survivalist penalty laden game style. It weeds out the frivolity and beings on the frugality of gameplay!
Check out Deathbringer too! Happy gaming!
@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 i will!
Reading through the supply rules that is so nice & simple you don't need to keep track of how many torches or rations you have its all wrapped up in supply
I concur.
Whenever the professor recommends a book, it always proves worth it! This book is as great as his other picks!
Just ran a 0 level Peasant Mayhem with 7 players running up to 6 players each following your initial guide, and morphing it into 5TD. It was like a revolt in Czarist Russia. They were feeling empowered when they found sharpened rocks and made rudimentry clothes from birch trees. I made your goblins a human cannibal cult. The standouts were a Tax Collector (post combat jokes ensued) and Gong Farmer. The 1HP Piss Boy survived, but the bandits stole both of his buckets and his clothes. They didn't even try to fight the bandits, though one characher accidently self immolated with an oil flask failure during the hold up. 7 players, 4 to 6 0 levels each, 3.75 hours.
That sounds like an awesome session.
THAT is a game in which I'd love to play! Bravo, Adam. Bravo.
@@benvoliothefirst The Discord comments were positive post session. I'm working on the next session, Inn will be named "Ball and a Biscuit," and the dry goods store will be "Sebastian's Stabby Stabby." This will be a number of years prior to my first campaign so I will reuse some of the NPCs but make them 20 years younger. Players love that kind on continuity. 5TD will be interesting to use.
@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 Thank You Sir. I have been inspired by your Channel. I've posted several of your videos in the Discord server we have for our game. I've trained 3 new DMs but the number of Public Game attendees keeps growing. We've tripled in size in a year, now with more than 30 folks attending every Tuesday evening fairly regularly. My group has already purchased 3 copies of 5TD. Reminds me a little of the old Chaosium games mortality. I always have players have a deep line of replacements ready to roll. BTW your figure painting and building skills are awesome.
I ended up ordering it!
I just finished reading the pdf version and LOVE it!
I’m going to try running a session next week with my son and see is he can run a full (3-4 char) party alone with this system.
I’m so excited to try it!
Thank you for the recommendation!
Cool. Let me know how it goes!
You did catch that archetypes don’t get all those abilities - they choose one from the list every couple of levels and get something like three of them maximum.
Yeah, I think he missed it, it's easy to miss actually, you'd think they would get all of those features by 9nth level, or at least half. I understand wanting to cut down on the power creep, but cutting down on class identity/utility is a bit odd. But if you noticed each archetype seems to get a lot of proficiencies. I think fighter got like 4, 1 being medicine, (which does make sense, I mean you fight for a living first aid is a must know skill) and I think you do just get those from the way it's worded.
I bought Five Torches Deep about a month ago based on Adam Koebel's review. I've read through most of it (being only 45 pages helps), and I really like it. And because I've read it, I feel I need to point out some stuff you may have misinterpreted.
-Archetypes: PCs only gain *2* of the features of their chosen archetype (at levels 3 and 7 - this was especially galling because the text is right there on-screen), not all of them. So a Fighter can get a permanent +1 AC and/or deal +1 damage on all attacks and/or give all nearby allies +1 AC, but not all three. So there's a lot of versatility in that.
-Spellcasting: there is a theoretical limit to how many times a spell can be cast per day. Casting spells requires components, some of which might be materials. And those can be consumed upon the spell being cast. Unfortunately, FTD doesn't specify which spells might require material components. So I guess this is going to depend on how the GM feels about casters.
On a more personal note, while I can appreciate putting class restrictions on different races as a way to give the feel of a human-dominated setting, if pushed, I fall into the camp of "just let them play what they want." It doesn't make sense to me that a human can play a Warrior while having a Strength of 11, while an Elf with a Strength of 12 can't.
Something you didn't mention, but I wish you had, is how there are *no* dump-stats in FTD. Every stat has it's use, regardless of class. High INT means you have a higher Supply score, so you can have more stuff like torches, ammo, rations, etc; high WIS gives you better Morale; high CHA means more followers and being able to use more magic items.
thor30013 I like the charisma bonus determining magic items. To appease my group I’m running what is mostly 5e, but I borrowed a lot of ideas from ftd, and this is one of them - but made it the bonus the number of items that can be attuned.
Thanks for the review, this looks awesome. Fills my need for the classic old school play without bogging the game down and it is a fresh new take on old school play.
I'm sold!
a video about a book wich solves a lot of D&D 5e main problems, and trpwing shade at disney star wars, this may make me play 5e
You know what I hate the most about the new Star Wars movies? How some people just can't *not* complain about them.
Fine. You don't like them. Now go away.
@@thor30013 dude complaining about stuff is an age old tradition, took more than a decade and an even worse movie for the fans stop colmplaining about the prequels
@@thor30013 nothing wrong with cirticism, in fact, that is how I built my critical thinking ability over time. If you don't like people talking about thing, just go away?
@@gabrieljusti1322 Right! I'm age old, and I hold up those traditions as sacred. Now, GET OFF MY LAWN! ;oP
Its glorious isnt it
Dude I love that you put a voice to the grumpy asked old man hiding in my subconscious. Thank you sir
"Mean little feral Garbage Pail Kids"... bravo, take your thumbs up, good sir.
I backed this on kickstarter. Best $10 I ever spent.
The best thing is, even if you don't use the whole thing, each of the individual bits are usable. The SUPPLY rules work just as well in 5e as they do here, same with the initiative, same with monster gen.
The way it moved stuff around so that there are no dump stats is also a good point in it's favor.
Making every stat useful was something WotC should have done. The supply and retainer rules really shine.
It makes sense that all priest classes would be zealots. When you have undeniable proof of the existence of divine (and malign) forces, who wouldn't be a zealot?
I like the fact that a druid is a nature zealot in this world too. Connecting with nature gives them powers, without an obvious deity to worship.
@@augustoluis6888 Meshes with my opinion of a lot of the "Greenpeace" types to me, too... ;)
What you think are divine forces are actually very high level wizards.
This review was brilliant and illustrates the difference between a typical D&D 5e and OSR. I prefer my 1st level character to be on par with a peasant than Captain America. It makes the game more exciting.
Do not know how I missed this one year ago, I’m sold.
Side note, immunity to weather rocks, nothing better than walking right through the rain and not getting wet.
Love how the uploads are on Thursdays, after my session so I can watch while I relax after a long session.
Cool. Sorry this one aired on Wednesday, didn't think 6pm on Thanksgiving was a good time slot.
@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 it's alright, it's understandable
Loved the weapons list with more historical named weapons
Me too!
As a player,
When it comes to dice
-I love rolling durring gameplay, even if I fail.
-I hate rolling durring character creation/level-ups even if it gets me better stats.
Fantastic. I love Five Torches Deep and this was a fantastic review.
Now this is how all commercials should be. Though if they were, I'd be broke. A mobile pdf is a nice touch. Now I can flip through it while I wait for it to show up.
Great review. Loved the comments about spell simplicity/streamlining
Every time the Professor recommends a book I buy it.
I haven't bought XDM yet. I keep reading bad reviews.
@@feagal612 I enjoyed it but it's definitely not for everyone you really have to have a good understanding of game design to see where they are coming from
I was looking at the Halfling image thinking, "He's an Angry Elf!" but Mean little feral garbage pail kids made me laugh out loud.
It was a really cool choice by the artist.
In watching this review I can't help but think this is how 5E should have gone to realize its concept of simplification. It would have saved them from making the absolutely useless Ranger class at any rate.
Nice, succinct review, peppered with just enough opinion to keep it interesting. More importantly, it makes me want to check out yournother reviews. Thanks and keep up the good works.
Wow, sounds simple and a great one stop shop for D&D. Thanks for the comprehensive review.
I looked at this before and was on the fence. This review sold it. Could use as-is, but more likely as an engine.
Cool. It's a great engine.
Man, this might be the d20 system I was looking for so long. It has the Old School feel, but feels sleek, without the clunky, weird rules from the earlier editions.
Absolutely Awesome! I'm totally buying this.
Thanks for bringing it to light.
I do have one thing to disagree with lol ....more than half the 5e DMG is dedicated to story building and dungeon design.... It's actually the better of all of the DMGs. (I can't speak for 4th...)
Sold me Professor...great review and I have to admit...your enthusiasm for this book adds to the intrigue. Thanks for another great video...Cheers!!
This game is my introduction to the OSR. This exact video. Thank you.
PDM! Thank you for the review of Five Torches Deep! I just went to DrivethruRPG and ordered myself a printed copy! I had to have this!! I played 1st-2nd Edition first when I was about 11. (I am 43 now) This is purely brilliant!
This is great! Ordering it! Thank you for reviewing this product!
This product is exactly what I have been looking for. Thanks for the excellent review.
I bought it because of you Professor Dungeonmaster. My players will enjoy it! Thanks for this Review!
Sounds like any party with a mage will be wearing no more than leather armour and using clubs and quarter staves as melee weapons (or at least as backup weapons).
Watched this review for the first time yesterday. Bought the book today. Hard copy and PDF. Very pleased.
I just went back and rewatched this review. After playing around with other ideas I too decided to use this and ICRPG (and some Deathbringer) as my main system.
fundraiser for prof dungeon master to get his own museum
That's kind of you. The museum is located at Patreon. Lots of stuff on there.
Super excited to pick this up. Great review, thanks!
I'm re-viewing these reviews in 2023. "I don't have time to write my own version [of D&D]," says the author of Deathbringer and the Eldritch Hack.
Wow that looks amazing. It's basically what I try to homebrew for my son and his friends. Great content as always 👍
Would be cool to see a review from you of the Old School Essentials.
Good thing is, in Old School games/OSR, it is not just the characters that have less HP, also the monsters. Old or ancient dragons with less than 100 hit points? Oh yes, babe!
At first I thought this was a shameless pitch of your own work.... Kudos you have not only inspired me but as it seems some others too, so in my mind your earned your title PROFESSOR Dungeonmaster. I myself have a System in the playtesting phase which will possibly become creative commons once it reaches final stage. I´ll send you a copy when it´s done. Have a nice day
This review was so effective, I bought the PDF & POD the moment I got home from work. I already have ICRPG so I am good to go!!! Thanks, Professor Dungeon Master!
Due to the OGL debacle, I decided to check out D&D alternatives and FTD has moved to the top of my options. Great review. I have FTD in hand now and plan on running a game soon.
Picked up our copy!
Now THIS is what im looking for.
Sounds awesome and what I am using in my next campaign, nice review
Cool!
@8:00 I think that Prof Dungeon Master may have misstated the mechanic "as written" for the Paladin. I could be wrong, but I think that IF a Paladin keeps his vow during the course of an adventure, he gains 2 additional HP (added to his HP base) and is also able to do 2 additional damage per attack (added to his weapon damage)... rather than just +2 to his attack.
Still, at the end of the day, regardless of whether the rules are followed "as written" or modified, it is VERY nice to see the reduction of over-powered characters that are SO prevalent in most of today's popular D&D RPGs. I prefer Old School D&D... dark, gritty, and dangerous magic... with NO freaking spammy cantrips!
Keith Mathews I very well may have made an error. I often do. I need better editors! Thanks for watching, Keith!
@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 Please don't think me as being rude... I was truly not meaning to sound that way at all. Your content is fantastic, as was the review.
3 min in and I love it!!! I am going to buy and play it after the holidays are over. Ty! I didn't see, but is there a MM?
What's an MM? My brain is fuzzy.
Dungeon Craft Monster Manual
@@blinddog4288 It's in the video, but anyway: The book has a Monster Craft Tool instead of a Bestiary, it teaches you how to make your own creatures.
17% thumbs up. Not too shabby. Nice material.
Aaaaaand ordered. I love high risk dnd. it's never quite as fun when your character has ascended to some kind of walking, talking demigod
True. Also why the Dune sequels are not as good as the originals.
Perfect system to play "hot springs island"
Why is that?
This looks amazing. Perfect for an old school gamer from 2nd edition or earlier.
Hey, I wrote a bit for Ben Dutter on his first RPG! Had him on my ill-fated podcast once. I may just go pick this up!
This looks like the version of D&D I can teach my 10 year old, although she'll probably want to play an exotic race like a winged fairy or tiefling rather than one of the four races in the rules.
Excellent review Professor!
OK I know this is a year old, I must have missed it but thanks to the algarytheme here I am.
I really just want to address your comment on mixing up / creating your own monsters to keep players on edge. While I have never personally had this problem in campaigns I have ran I can credit this to the Vanrichten monster guides from back in the 90's ( and the compilations that were made in 3rd ed). These books taught me so much about how to make exciting enemies for my players to challenge , as well as how to make them think strategically in battle, and often question if in fact they were the monsters all along.
Unfortunately I am crap at designing logic puzzles for adventures and I wish I could have found a book that could have inspired me as much for them half as much as the old Ravenloft books did for storylines and character design/ motivations.
This is on my Christmas list!
Cool!
I absolutely love every game you review!
Sold! Ordering my copy now. Thanks professor! However, it maybe a while before I get around to play testing it. My group is enjoying " Talislanta the Savage lands" for the past few months:)
Great review. Spot on. I bought it because of your review. I can't wait to plan my next campaign!
The only thing I'd change is the way Spell Levels are presented. I would like the Spells' Levels to run from Levels 1 to 10 in this game (or 1 to 20 in 5e) and the casters would pick a spell equal to their character's level or less. They would then cast that newly-learned spell with an effective casting level of 1st level (for damage, range, area of effect, etc..). This "effective casting level" would increase with each new level the character reached AFTER learning the spell. Thus, newly-learned spells would be "relatively" less powerful (in base range, and effect) than spells the caster has used for a very long time.
That's a really good idea. I like that. 👍
I like this idea as well. It always confused me that spells levels were not aligned to character levels.
I did the same thing... just doubled 5E spell levels. Cantrips are 1st level, 1st level spells are two, there are no 3rd level-spells, 2nd-level spells are 4th, etc.
Hello prof, I'm watching your review videos again, so my question is 5e hardcore mode or Five torches deep?
Excellent. Love this review. I will certainly have to check this book out.
Prof i saw this book a while back on adam Koebel channel and honestly your channel and game style was the first thing i thought of lol
I really like this. I occasionally get the urge to play D&D for nostalgia's sake, but I just can't handle modern D&D. Generally speaking, I am now much more into narrative, rules-light games, which is why I liked your video on XDM, though that system didn't completely click with me. I've been interested in trying Elemental, but while that seems appealing, it has a bit more crunch than I am looking for.
This one may do it for me, though I have to say I never wanted to go back to Hit Points. I much prefer a health track.
I had the atheist paladin argument with a younger player and I said the exact same thing
IMO an atheist paladin is called a "fighter."
I think I am going to have to buy this.
No monks, no warlocks, no dragonborn. Woohoo!
Quick looking for an RPG like DND is this Stand alone product and would you consider this simplified and rules lite, I have resistance getting people to try games because of the time involved to learn a system
Something that gets me about this game is that it lists "haphazard magic" under "OSR" as if the original D&D game had this "magic that could go wrong" mechanic. It didn't OD&D, AD&D, B/X, 2e, 3e, and 5e have ALL had a similar Vancian spell slot system that was stable and predictable. Magic slots were a resource you expended and had to keep careful track of, especially in the older editions where you had precious few - but those spells always worked. Dunno where anyone is getting the idea that back in the Old School magic missiles often turned you into a frog.
True. I'm reading Old School Essentials right now and they don't do it. I may give them a review. I think people like me dig the OSR low hp and think rolling for spell casting is fun. Thanks for your thoughtful comments.
Dungeon Craft I look forward towards your look at OSE.
I think OSR nowadays is larger than just the original editions and their retroclones. Lots of OSR games have had dangerous, unpredictable spellcasting for years now: Dungeon Crawl Classics, LotFP’s VAM and EC systems, Sharp Swords & Sinister Spells, Low Fantasy Gaming, etc.
@@chrishall5440 Thanks Chris. I agree. I've mentioned a couple of those games before. I'll say more about them in a video called "6 Changes for the 6th Edition," taping soon.
I am gonna get this book, this seems like it was write just for your style of play. My D&D group loves playing your version of the game. Time for something new!!!!
Thanks, Paul. Happy gaming!
Just ordered it! Probably gonna just use this to run any future fantasy games from now on.
Why is it not the Rogue class with thief as an archetype? That's so weird.
I wondered that too. Probably to more differentiate it from D&D?
For whatever reason, some players really hate the title of thief compared to rogue. Maybe that's why? Who knows.
@@Squncoin Well Theif is a more loaded term where as a Rogue can be many things, Dashing Swashbuckler, Devious Mastermind, Daring Archeologist, Dastardly Assassin, and not to mention a Thief. But Thief just means a Thief. Also whene the classes name was thief it attracted a lot of problem players who would do increadibly stupid crap all the time.
I can't say for certainty, but Thief was the base class back in AD&D games, so OSR games tend to use that terminology. Of course, the base class for warriors was just fighter in AD&D, so obviously that isn't really consistent.
They originally changed the name of Thief to Rogue, not because they thought it was a better description, but because of the moral panic.
Joseph Lawter I think you’re on the right track. It would make sense that they use the more traditional class name instead of the more specific classes and archetypes we have now. I think the characters also level up to 9 which was an older tradition of sunsetting a PC at level 9.
so we really never needed anything past 2nd edition? 1980sFTW!
You didn't need 2nd Edition either. To me it was a reorganization of 1st Edition so they could sell splat books no one really needed just to soak the us. I edited this so I sound less troll-like. Those who came later might have only had 2nd Edition available.
I now realise that I like this guy and want to hear his opinions. Thanks :)
I think this might be my Christmas present to myself.
Ok, I picked up a copy of Five Torches Deep, Lot's of great ideas, I think the supply rules are the best part of the 5TD, and worth the entry. The supply rules should become a part of DB Delux.
I like the Rubik's Cube idea for making a dungeon, and I can see a way to tweek it for larger dungeons.
I like the set-up as a whole for it's simplicity, and if you want fluff, that's what Setting Books are for.
Most of this I could take or leave as I see fit, but there are just some things that don't sit well with me. The biggest one is the restrictions on races and classes. Not enough diversity for my tastes. A little too cookie-cutter for non-humans, too. Really? ALL dwarfs have a 13 strength? et al.
Steve O'Carroll so roll for the dwarf strength and take 13 if the result is less? Seems like a simple solution if you don’t like it. Home brew this stuff, it’s what the creators have done.
I'm getting this! And some snap cubes, they are great to keep track of spell slots & HP! Thanks a lot for the suggestion! I will try to convert my group to these rules! Mwuahaha!
Another excellent video as always Professor!