Thank you very much for the excellent video!! You are a quality item! :-) This provided me with a great education and also saved me some money for certain! The dealership had my car for 4 days and still hadn't completed the diagnostics. I brought the car back home and will try this route. I'll let you know how it goes. I hope you and your business are very blessed!
I really enjoyed watching your diagnostic method(s). Your honesty is admirable and will be sensed and talked about by your customers. You will have a good reputation as a mechanic.
I looked up the replacement blower motor at the Napa Online site. It lists a price about $88.00 retail for the part. So if you continue your work with honesty and integrity and save your customers money over your initial quoted repair cost, word of mouth has to spread about your capabilities. Your business just has to flourish! Great diagnosis!
Great video Ivan - I would always recommend to the customer to change the cabin filter too as I have seen many a blower motor resistor fry due to poor air flow over the heat sink caused a semi-blocked filter. Thanks again.....
Ivan, coming from someone who knows a little bit about squirrel cage (blower) fans... The more restricted the airflow - the less load on the fan / fan motor. It makes sense to have a moderately lower amp draw with a fan installed into a ducted housing as it will always reduce airflow to some degree. With it running out in the open, it is loaded to a point that would likely not exist during "normal" operation. It is possible that once installed, the new fan motor could have drawn less current than the old fan motor. -- It would be an interesting test! Just something we see in residential HVAC - amp draws on a squirrel cage blower are not relevant until the equipment is installed with spec ducting etc...if we were to run one "bare" it could overheat eventually and burn out.
Ivan, this brought back memories. Back in 1976 while attending Penn State, a friend and I rebuilt his MG Midget u-joints in the parking lot behind Nittany dorms. Even back then parking lot friendly existed. I would bet college students would jump at the service you could provide.
Nice work, I am sure your customer will appreciate your honesty and integrity in not just swapping out all the parts for your convenience, at their expense. I have learned a thing or two about blower motor control in your last few videos, thanks man!
Nice & quick and another happy customer...good call to check the amperage again and analyze the resistor module. I know you'll be glad warmer weather is coming and good luck with your business. It's lots of work but very rewarding and hopefully you'll have plenty of business. You already have a great reputation so word of mouth spreads fast b/c everyone is looking for a good dependable shop to bring their vehicle to!
Did you ever talk about that case with Eric O. ? He has a video about the same model (but 2001). He replaced the blower resistor but 1 month later the car came back because the High position stopped working. He checked the blower motor draw and it was ... 25A ! The new one he got only drew 13A ! My point is the new one you got was possibly defective, don't you think ?
Good info. I have one of these vans from 03 and mine has been a good one (southern vehicle). A common problem to watch for is a scorched injector wire loom . It comes close to the exhaust crossover and has no real heat shield. Makes for funny map and injector codes when the wires cross. You must remove the fiberglass shield and some tape to see the melted insulation.
Like Bob Weiss said in an earlier comment, I'm not sure you can trust your clamp on current readings in this case. They don't seem consistent. You are, after all measuring pulse width modulated DC current. Do you know how your meter responds to that compared to straight DC current? I would suggest when measuring motor current to do it with straight battery voltage instead of AFTER a module..
I don't know what your magic stuff is, maybe it is better, but when installing a battery I put a dab of multipurpose grease on each battery post before installing the cables. I've been doing this for 50 years and I've yet to experience battery post corrosion. So, a well tested procedure that works.
Great vid. Be careful with the green crusties on the battery terminals. You don’t want to breath that stuff in. I like to mix some baking soda in a cup of water (enough so the water is cloudy) and wet a rag/paper towel with the mixture and then wet the terminal with the wet rag/paper towel. The mixture will neutralize the battery acid and make it easier to remove and hopefully not come back. For really bad terminals, I make a paste out of the backing soda/water and cover the terminal with it like icing on a cake. Works like a charm. I’ve heard Coca-Cola will also do the job, but I never have any handy when I need it for anything but drinking. :-)
+Smudger Dave Yes, it would be a shunt resistor, as it is used in "shunt" (parallel) with a voltage measuring circuit to convert a current to a voltage signal. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shunt_%28electrical%29
+Bob Weiss Did you read the Wikipedia article you cited? "An ammeter shunt allows the measurement of current values too large to be directly measured by a particular ammeter." The resistor is not shunting an ammeter. It is converting the the circuit current into a voltage. The voltage will be read by an op-amp with extremely high input resistance so for all practical purposes, the resistor is not shunting anything.
+Smudger Dave So if you took one of these: www.powerwerx.com/fuses-circuit-protection/current-shunt-resistors-100-amp-max.html and measure the output (specified as a VOLTAGE, BTW) with anything other than a d'Arsonval type galvanometer (specified in terms of micro/milli/amps FS), it doesn't qualify as a current shunt? Shunt has become the accepted term for a 4 terminal resistor designed and used for measuring moderate to high currents..
Thumbs up. That is how I run my car repairs. All online. It's so much easier. My customers love the ease of setting up appointment, knowing how much they will be charged and getting an e-receipt. I am looking forward to have my own garage though.
+Joshua Harden Best wishes to you.....I'm thinking of starting my second career and I'm fixing everyone's cars for free now, why not make it my second career? I find your method interesting.....have not considered doing anything online as far what you have done.....can I steal, err, share in your idea? Car repairs online....Free pizza too!
Clete88 good luck with starting a second career. I recommend doing the videos for free but charging your customers. I set up a Facebook page for my business, post customers cars on it so they know what is going on. I have a separate email address for it. I advertise my business on craigslist, Facebook and word of mouth. Honesty is what brings new customers and keeps previous ones coming back. Stand firm on your prices.
+Joshua Harden Point well taken about honesty.....especially for us small town folks.... Your reputation is your business...Your approach is brand new to me, but it sounds very appealing.....Folks can actually go online and see what is the latest situation report on their vehicle in your custody? That's wild...Kinda smart too if I'm allowed to voice my opinion.... I'm sure you've see the old signs hanging in shops that say they charge you more if you watch, but you're volunteering.... That's different....but I like it!
+Clete88 I post the photos because the customers like it and I'm a drop off pick up shop or I'll go to the customers home or job. I prefer if the customer isn't around watching me record a video or asking question. I have to get the car in and our asap and a chatty person can slow that down. I don't charge by the hour I charge by the job. Same price no matter the car so the faster the job is done the more money I make.
I love it when mechanics spread that powdered acid from the battery everywhere. When you inhale that stuff you might begin doing what I always do, wet cleanup. Even one gallon of water would do it, although I use a hose. Dilute acid will not hurt anything, but powdered acid does.
+eddie martinez May be a power MOSFET rather than a bipolar transistor, as well. Whatever it is dissipates a hell of a lot of heat, as evidenced by the forced air cooled heatsink. Automotive industry stuff is pretty notorious for "house numbered" components, which complicates reverse engineering and failure analysis.
Bob Weiss Your right i was thinking old TV not cars but it did put out alot of heat big heat sink puts me in mind of and output thrans on a system three zenith.
+eddie martinez Ah, yes the dreaded 9-160 module! My first job in electronics was a TV bench tech during the heyday of those things. Back when people actually repaired TVs.....
Nice video Ivan. I think maybe the difference in the current measurement was due to the fact that when you measured it the first time you were supplying a constant ground to the motor. In the second measurement the motor was being duty cycle controlled. I couldn't tell for sure, but it looked like it may have been around a 75% duty cycle with the blower on high. I used a rough estimate of 14V and the current measurement of roughly 26A to solve for the approximate blower motor resistance while supplied with a full ground. 14V / 26 A = 0.538 ohms. With a 75% duty cycle the average voltage would be around 10.5V (14V x .75 = 10.5V). Using the resistance measurement from before we can solve for the amperage with a 75% duty cycle (10.5V / 0.538 ohms = 19.5A). Thanks for posting. Keep up the good work.
+Eric Mora I think you are onto something here...See my post below. I think the clamp on might be measuring peak current in Ivan's final test, because he was measuring the chopped voltage after the module......Of course peak current is going to be higher than average current.... As we know, in an inductive circuit, like a motor winding, the current is maximum initially and falls off as the field develops......So a chopper motor controller might fool a current meter.
Hi Ivan, the next time you have corroded battery terminals you should try pouring boiling water on them, it dissolves the corrosion almost instantly. I've had great success with it. Thanks for the great videos.
I sure enjoy watching and listening to your path in diagnostics. Along with Eric and Paul, I'm starting to make sense of ground side switched, etc. Best of luck in your business. Your not in my area but I'll look for your web page just for the fun of it.
At 13:27 the Transistor actually looks like its cracked and shifted at the heatsink clip. Perhaps there is more damage to the controller than just the cracked solder joints... Thanks for the Great Videos!!
One IGBT(Insulated Gate Bipolar Transistor) on a whopping heat-sink and some fancy control circuitry. In my case it was £70 worth of fancy circuitry from Citroen. So, we've gone from simple cheap high current switch and resistor chain to a fancy high current circuit that when it fails costs us loss in much beer money :( Keep up the good work Ivan.
+wtbm123 That aspect has to do with the motor being fired up in 'free air' situation though, installed, it would have been operating in a partial vacuum created by it's own RPM and thus the amperage draw would have lowered to be the same range as the old motor. Loading is the main component of horsepower created here and current draw is dependent on loading. Take the fan off and it might have drawn only 7 amps on high. Inquisitive minds do wonder about these things, THE mark of excellence among techs so congratulations, you are a member.
+STEVE ROB Well the fuse is 40A, so I would assume the blower shouldn't draw even close to that number on full-blast. I guess there are variables to everything huh?
+motoYam82 circuit protected by fuse shouldn't draw more than 50-60% of that fuse rating. you are ok in this case) i would be worried if it would draw 30 or more amps
I wouldn't rule out the mosfet being bad or the circuitry that controls the gate. although the tin solder was cracked it didn't look like a cold solder joint in the video but hard to tell. great video, I like these autopsy ones.
Ivan , nice video. You got "slid" (ERIC) some with amp draw on the blower motor. what i like is you don't edit that out. You had no amp draw specs. I would think 25 amps would be too much also. I think it proves how valuable information or the lack of it is. keep up the good work.
+Jeff L Well in this case I wouldn't say I got "slid" in a bad way...saved the customer a bunch of money, saved myself some labor, learned something new ...and no comebacks! :)
Great video thanks hope to see more. That bridge conection is maybe current shunt for mesuring current. If you can next time mesure the blower motor voltage or current with scope to see brushing . Try remove that transistore an check it
I gotta wonder, why was the battery replaced? Granted, the one in the car had been there but replacing it because the cables are corroded, that doesn't balance out to me. Was the old battery load tested? Maybe the terminals needed a good cleaning and top-off of the water? I understand the desire to have a reliable battery but that's a decent cost in addition to the other work.
+Nate Rowe Because we take off the terminals and clean them, put everything back nice and tight and let the car run for 20 minutes only to realize that by the time it got to us the battery is toasted. Loose terminals do get tightened and a lot of the time that does allow the battery to charge/discharge correctly, but tight and corroded terminals that battery is a goner. Regular cleaning can help a battery last longer, but once it gets to that point it's too late.
+Derrick Hodges But Ivan, along with a bunch of other logical automotive techs on UA-cam, try to take a methodical approach. The corrosion itself could have been the issue. Corrosion that bad is likely inside the cables too which could very well mean that even if you clean the terminals and throw a new battery on, you still get poor amperage transfer due to corroded cables. Maybe it's a learned thing that a seasoned mechanic can spot a mile away but I would have liked to see a load test on the battery outside the car. There's a lot of people that would throw a battery or a starter at a problem in hopes that it fixes an issue. Just kinda surprised me that Ivan threw the battery in without going into much detail on it.
Nate Rowe It's just an experience thing I suppose. Investigate when necessary. Had a Mercedes owner in today with a message on the instrument cluster "left brake light out", no power to the socket, no power from SAM module. Parts labor and reprogram is about $1,500 for a brake light not working. Got them back on the road with working lights and no error messages on the instrument cluster for under $300. Technically speaking, that much corrosion it's time to replace the battery, even if it means you warranty it, shouldn't vent that much acidic fumes. Cleaning them won't prevent them from corroding again, eventually ruining the terminals/battery tray/nearby connectors.
+Nate Rowe Hey Nate, I knew someone out there would give me a hard time about "throwing a battery in it" lol! Don't worry, I would never do that...my recommendation was entirely evidence-based: 1) I did load-test the battery! If having the key on and playing with some accessories for 10 minutes drains the battery to cause a no-crank, then the battery most definitely failed the load test. 2) Not worried about the terminal corrosion impeding current flow. Customer had no complaints about slow cranking prior to this, and it started up fine after a few minutes of running. So the battery capacity itself is getting very low. 3) The corrosion itself means that there is acid leakage, and the only way to solve that is get a new battery :) Basically you could call this preventative maintenance so the owner wouldn't get stranded a few months down the road!
Centrifugal fans pull way more amps when they are run in open air VS when they are run with ductwork. It seems backwards, but restrictions (ie heater core, ac coil, ductwork) actually reduces the power draw of a centrifugal fan. It's called runout. I wouldn't be surprised if that new blower motor ran more like 15-20 amps if you actually installed it.
All I can say is " Make more Videos" ..I always look forward to your and Erics..Matt seems to have dropped of the face of the earth since starting his premium channel
I can't see how a 20A load is being successfully fed from a 10A fuse. I'm wondering if the motor current is a chopped DC waveform that doesn't register properly on your clamp meter. The TRMS function on multimeters is ONLY on the AC voltage ranges. If you have a current probe for your scope, check the motor current waveform to find out. That "metal bridge" you found inside the module is actually a low value resistor, used as a shunt to measure the current drawn by the load, to provide feedback to the internal control circuitry.
+Bob Weiss Hey Bob, thanks for your thoughts! Where did you see a 10A fuse? The main blower fuse is 40A as I showed in Part 1. Now you got me wondering...yes seeing the motor amperage on the scope would answer some questions. In this case the only thing we can say for certain is: 1) The new NAPA motor drew MORE current than the OEM fan, when fed by the module. 2) The OEM fan definitely drew 26A in Part 1 when connected straight to power and ground. In this setup that actually may be completely normal! As far as the metal bridge, yes I think you are right. There are little traces going to the opposite sides of the bridge to sense the voltage drop across the shunt. So that raises another question: is the smart resistor board self-protecting? Why did it allow 26A to the new motor, and only 20A to the old one? Thanks for the insight!
+motoYam82 Could have sworn I saw 10A on the fuse in the first video. Have to go back and look.... Without reverse engineering the module it is difficult to say what the current sensing is used for. Possibly to allow an initial pulse of high current to get the motor spinning, followed by a lower current when running. May also be used to monitor and limit motor current to a certain range, which may allow for 25A or more as normal variation over life. All the "smarts" in that module are in the parts you didn't really explore, the electronics between the PWM input and the base/gate of that power transistor or MOSFET mounted on the heatsink. This would include the feedback loop incorporating that current shunt resistor.
Hey! There was a crack in the power MOSFET Transistor! I think you have to replace this to repair this module. But anyways, i like very much your Videos! BR from Switzerland
Hi motoYam82 I working on 95 corvette and last time I replace brand new battery and starter.when I tried to crank it motor turns over for 3 -4 seconds and then sorts of die (starter motor is working really hard to spin the engine) and then stop even you dont let go of ignition.I have tried remote starter switch but it's same result.Do you have any thoughts or suggestion ? (all the fuse are good ,no corrosion as I inspected )
+djmerce67 Measure starter amperage with an ampclamp. You either have poor connections at the main feed/ground to the starter (current too low), have a defective starter motor, or the engine crankshaft itself is abnormally hard to turn over (current will be excessive, like over 200A).
Congratulations on your first totally independent diagnosis and repair job. Would selling the service of diagnosis, leaving the r&r part of the job to a mechanic, be a viable option for your business?
+motoYam82 That's what I've been thinking all along Ivan, you're pretty much the ScannerDanner of your neck of the woods. I'd personally love to be able to hire a diagnostician to troubleshoot certain pesky problems and then do the repair myself. You have the high level skills, the equipment, and the resources to do what many a DIYer simply can't.
good video ivan, i will say..you made me cringe, blowing off dry dusty corrosion from the battery lol, i know napa sells a spray..i can't remember the name right now, it's on my toolbox at work, but it foams up and makes the corrosion more like...sludge, so you don't breathe all that garbage in your lungs
Basically a badly designed circuit board on these then as there was no excessive current drawn thru it, just a matter of time before they ALL fail in this mode too. Tiny wraps of bare copper wire on the thru board portion of problem legs would allow for more solder/electrical contact with problem legs to remain conductive to the circuit board. Best to desolder them before wrapping too. Simple reflow results in just resetting the time clock for when this goes south again, more contact area between pins and board is the fix. Longer pins and bent over to the board is the OEM fix that will never get done before a design change moots the issue entirely. Sad state of affairs really.
+motoYam82 Well, pulling out the practical card like that isn't really playing fair. :) We have to get the trained monkeys to make these things right in the first place and if we let them slide on this issue where will the world be? They put the silkscreen on, they put the green fingernail polish on and after 50 years they finally are putting on a really decent heat sink, so now they need to learn to cut the legs off 1/4 inch longer on +10 amp components and fold them over so the solder wave can nail them such that we don't see pulled legs or hot spots on 20 amp circuit boards no more. The saying goes something like this, 'I've upped my standards, so now they have to go and up theirs.' All things considered, that really is a sweet controller, I'm impressed with it - just needs a bit of tweaking.
The power transistor on this module died. Take a close look at 13:26 and you will see the crack in the transistor case. Good luck for your business, I hope growing your business doesn't keep you from filming your diagnoses and repairs... :-)
+motoYam82 you will be on call and ready for whatever. I had a remodeling business a few years back and I purchased a used 14' covered trailer that was 6' wide and 7' tall and I pulled it with a pickup truck. It sure made life easier for me because I was able to carry tools and had a work space to boot.
Good job nice to see an honest mechanic. Best of luck with your business you deserve it. Al,NJ
Thank you very much for the excellent video!! You are a quality item! :-) This provided me with a great education and also saved me some money for certain! The dealership had my car for 4 days and still hadn't completed the diagnostics. I brought the car back home and will try this route. I'll let you know how it goes. I hope you and your business are very blessed!
Ivan, I really like you looking at the failed component. Great job. Thanks for Sharing!
I really enjoyed watching your diagnostic method(s). Your honesty is admirable and will be sensed and talked about by your customers. You will have a good reputation as a mechanic.
Ivan you showed great integrity in this video keeping the test of the new motor in and not cutting it out. Great Job!!
I looked up the replacement blower motor at the Napa Online site. It lists a price about $88.00 retail for the part. So if you continue your work with honesty and integrity and save your customers money over your initial quoted repair cost, word of mouth has to spread about your capabilities. Your business just has to flourish! Great diagnosis!
Great video Ivan - I would always recommend to the customer to change the cabin filter too as I have seen many a blower motor resistor fry due to poor air flow over the heat sink caused a semi-blocked filter. Thanks again.....
+jools Grudgings Very good advice---no airflow--fried electronics !!
Excellent diagnostic as always. Glad you didnt have to replace the fan motor. Its got a bolt in the back at the firewall thats is very hard to get.
Ivan, coming from someone who knows a little bit about squirrel cage (blower) fans...
The more restricted the airflow - the less load on the fan / fan motor. It makes sense to have a moderately lower amp draw with a fan installed into a ducted housing as it will always reduce airflow to some degree. With it running out in the open, it is loaded to a point that would likely not exist during "normal" operation. It is possible that once installed, the new fan motor could have drawn less current than the old fan motor. -- It would be an interesting test!
Just something we see in residential HVAC - amp draws on a squirrel cage blower are not relevant until the equipment is installed with spec ducting etc...if we were to run one "bare" it could overheat eventually and burn out.
+James Lee Great point, James!
Great video. I was really impressed that you were willing to go back and tell your customer about the fan and save them money. Great job.
Ivan, this brought back memories. Back in 1976 while attending Penn State, a friend and I rebuilt his MG Midget u-joints in the parking lot behind Nittany dorms. Even back then parking lot friendly existed. I would bet college students would jump at the service you could provide.
PLEASE keep producing more videos. Like the way you explain in common language. Really liked the module teardown!
Nice work, I am sure your customer will appreciate your honesty and integrity in not just swapping out all the parts for your convenience, at their expense. I have learned a thing or two about blower motor control in your last few videos, thanks man!
Great job Ivan. It's going to be fun to watch you, and your business, grow. With your abilities and passion, you will no doubt be a success.
Nice & quick and another happy customer...good call to check the amperage again and analyze the resistor module. I know you'll be glad warmer weather is coming and good luck with your business. It's lots of work but very rewarding and hopefully you'll have plenty of business. You already have a great reputation so word of mouth spreads fast b/c everyone is looking for a good dependable shop to bring their vehicle to!
I have 2006 town and country with mode door problem, but I really enjoyed both videos. Excellent. Thanks
Did you ever talk about that case with Eric O. ? He has a video about the same model (but 2001). He replaced the blower resistor but 1 month later the car came back because the High position stopped working. He checked the blower motor draw and it was ... 25A ! The new one he got only drew 13A ! My point is the new one you got was possibly defective, don't you think ?
Good info. I have one of these vans from 03 and mine has been a good one (southern vehicle). A common problem to watch for is a scorched injector wire loom . It comes close to the exhaust crossover and has no real heat shield. Makes for funny map and injector codes when the wires cross. You must remove the fiberglass shield and some tape to see the melted insulation.
Like Bob Weiss said in an earlier comment, I'm not sure you can trust your clamp on current readings in this case. They don't seem consistent. You are, after all measuring pulse width modulated DC current. Do you know how your meter responds to that compared to straight DC current? I would suggest when measuring motor current to do it with straight battery voltage instead of AFTER a module..
Nice job Ivan! Diagnostics is something I'm still learning. Good luck growing your new business!
I don't know what your magic stuff is, maybe it is better, but when installing a battery I put a dab of multipurpose grease on each battery post before installing the cables. I've been doing this for 50 years and I've yet to experience battery post corrosion. So, a well tested procedure that works.
Great vid. Be careful with the green crusties on the battery terminals. You don’t want to breath that stuff in. I like to mix some baking soda in a cup of water (enough so the water is cloudy) and wet a rag/paper towel with the mixture and then wet the terminal with the wet rag/paper towel. The mixture will neutralize the battery acid and make it easier to remove and hopefully not come back. For really bad terminals, I make a paste out of the backing soda/water and cover the terminal with it like icing on a cake. Works like a charm. I’ve heard Coca-Cola will also do the job, but I never have any handy when I need it for anything but drinking. :-)
"Simple metal bridge" is actually a current sensing shunt resistor for measuring current that flows trough the blower motor.
+Sdttn Nearly right. It is a current sensing resistor but it's in series with the circuit so technically, it's not a shunt resistor. HTH
+Smudger Dave Yes, it would be a shunt resistor, as it is used in "shunt" (parallel) with a voltage measuring circuit to convert a current to a voltage signal.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shunt_%28electrical%29
+Bob Weiss Did you read the Wikipedia article you cited?
"An ammeter shunt allows the measurement of current values too large to be directly measured by a particular ammeter."
The resistor is not shunting an ammeter. It is converting the the circuit current into a voltage. The voltage will be read by an op-amp with extremely high input resistance so for all practical purposes, the resistor is not shunting anything.
+Smudger Dave So if you took one of these:
www.powerwerx.com/fuses-circuit-protection/current-shunt-resistors-100-amp-max.html
and measure the output (specified as a VOLTAGE, BTW) with anything other than a d'Arsonval type galvanometer (specified in terms of micro/milli/amps FS), it doesn't qualify as a current shunt?
Shunt has become the accepted term for a 4 terminal resistor designed and used for measuring moderate to high currents..
Thumbs up. That is how I run my car repairs. All online. It's so much easier. My customers love the ease of setting up appointment, knowing how much they will be charged and getting an e-receipt. I am looking forward to have my own garage though.
+Joshua Harden Best wishes to you.....I'm thinking of starting my second career and I'm fixing everyone's cars for free now, why not make it my second career? I find your method interesting.....have not considered doing anything online as far what you have done.....can I steal, err, share in your idea? Car repairs online....Free pizza too!
Clete88 good luck with starting a second career. I recommend doing the videos for free but charging your customers. I set up a Facebook page for my business, post customers cars on it so they know what is going on. I have a separate email address for it. I advertise my business on craigslist, Facebook and word of mouth. Honesty is what brings new customers and keeps previous ones coming back. Stand firm on your prices.
+Joshua Harden Point well taken about honesty.....especially for us small town folks.... Your reputation is your business...Your approach is brand new to me, but it sounds very appealing.....Folks can actually go online and see what is the latest situation report on their vehicle in your custody? That's wild...Kinda smart too if I'm allowed to voice my opinion.... I'm sure you've see the old signs hanging in shops that say they charge you more if you watch, but you're volunteering.... That's different....but I like it!
+Clete88 I post the photos because the customers like it and I'm a drop off pick up shop or I'll go to the customers home or job. I prefer if the customer isn't around watching me record a video or asking question. I have to get the car in and our asap and a chatty person can slow that down. I don't charge by the hour I charge by the job. Same price no matter the car so the faster the job is done the more money I make.
I love it when mechanics spread that powdered acid from the battery everywhere.
When you inhale that stuff you might begin doing what I always do, wet cleanup.
Even one gallon of water would do it, although I use a hose.
Dilute acid will not hurt anything, but powdered acid does.
Great video and bonus autopsy. Isn't it more likely that the transistor is burned out instead of bad solder joints?
+Cooll Asice Not sure...guess the only way to figure that out is to re-flow the solder and see if that sucker comes back to life!
+motoYam82 Or desolder the trans and check with a meter should be a npn can still check both npn or pnp.
+eddie martinez May be a power MOSFET rather than a bipolar transistor, as well. Whatever it is dissipates a hell of a lot of heat, as evidenced by the forced air cooled heatsink.
Automotive industry stuff is pretty notorious for "house numbered" components, which complicates reverse engineering and failure analysis.
Bob Weiss Your right i was thinking old TV not cars but it did put out alot of heat big heat sink puts me in mind of and output thrans on a system three zenith.
+eddie martinez Ah, yes the dreaded 9-160 module! My first job in electronics was a TV bench tech during the heyday of those things. Back when people actually repaired TVs.....
Having these exact symptoms on an 05'. Gave me more ideas to check. Thanks a million buddy!
Nice video Ivan. I think maybe the difference in the current measurement was due to the fact that when you measured it the first time you were supplying a constant ground to the motor. In the second measurement the motor was being duty cycle controlled. I couldn't tell for sure, but it looked like it may have been around a 75% duty cycle with the blower on high. I used a rough estimate of 14V and the current measurement of roughly 26A to solve for the approximate blower motor resistance while supplied with a full ground. 14V / 26 A = 0.538 ohms. With a 75% duty cycle the average voltage would be around 10.5V (14V x .75 = 10.5V). Using the resistance measurement from before we can solve for the amperage with a 75% duty cycle (10.5V / 0.538 ohms = 19.5A). Thanks for posting. Keep up the good work.
+Eric Mora Someone did not fall asleep in the mechanic's class !!
+Eric Mora I think you are onto something here...See my post below. I think the clamp on might be measuring peak current in Ivan's final test, because he was measuring the chopped voltage after the module......Of course peak current is going to be higher than average current....
As we know, in an inductive circuit, like a motor winding, the current is maximum initially and falls off as the field develops......So a chopper motor controller might fool a current meter.
It's far easier to take the 100% duty cycle current and multiple it by new duty cycle. 26A x 0.75 = 19.5A
Hi Ivan, the next time you have corroded battery terminals you should try pouring boiling water on them, it dissolves the corrosion almost instantly. I've had great success with it. Thanks for the great videos.
+Wandering Pom Great suggestion! Kind of tough to find boiling water in a cold parking lot though...but I did have a thermos of hot tea with me :)
I sure enjoy watching and listening to your path in diagnostics. Along with Eric and Paul, I'm starting to make sense of ground side switched, etc. Best of luck in your business. Your not in my area but I'll look for your web page just for the fun of it.
Great case study Ivan.
great honest repair, love the dissections
good call and lucky you checked the amps again
At 13:27 the Transistor actually looks like its cracked and shifted at the heatsink clip. Perhaps there is more damage to the controller than just the cracked solder joints... Thanks for the Great Videos!!
+Jim Spier Nope just an optical illusion :) Thank you for watching!
One IGBT(Insulated Gate Bipolar Transistor) on a whopping heat-sink and some fancy control circuitry.
In my case it was £70 worth of fancy circuitry from Citroen.
So, we've gone from simple cheap high current switch and resistor chain to a fancy high current circuit that when it fails costs us loss in much beer money :(
Keep up the good work Ivan.
Hi Ivan, I'm sure you will be super successful with your venture. Great job
Smart move double checking the current draw ! The customer will really like having a smaller bill !!
Interesting that the New Napa motor drew more amps , makes one wonder
+wtbm123 That aspect has to do with the motor being fired up in 'free air' situation though, installed, it would have been operating in a partial vacuum created by it's own RPM and thus the amperage draw would have lowered to be the same range as the old motor. Loading is the main component of horsepower created here and current draw is dependent on loading. Take the fan off and it might have drawn only 7 amps on high. Inquisitive minds do wonder about these things, THE mark of excellence among techs so congratulations, you are a member.
Awesome Ivan , I have to ask what was the amperage rating of the circuit protection. Seems high , seemed high to you too. 🙂
+STEVE ROB Well the fuse is 40A, so I would assume the blower shouldn't draw even close to that number on full-blast. I guess there are variables to everything huh?
+motoYam82 circuit protected by fuse shouldn't draw more than 50-60% of that fuse rating. you are ok in this case) i would be worried if it would draw 30 or more amps
+motoYam82 that was one of the worst battery terminals i have seen.
Congratulations on your growing business.
I wouldn't rule out the mosfet being bad or the circuitry that controls the gate. although the tin solder was cracked it didn't look like a cold solder joint in the video but hard to tell. great video, I like these autopsy ones.
+jsohn18436572 It kinda looks like the MOSFET is cracked from front to back.
Ivan , nice video. You got "slid" (ERIC) some with amp draw on the blower motor. what i like is you don't edit that out. You had no amp draw specs. I would think 25 amps would be too much also. I think it proves how valuable information or the lack of it is. keep up the good work.
+Jeff L Well in this case I wouldn't say I got "slid" in a bad way...saved the customer a bunch of money, saved myself some labor, learned something new ...and no comebacks! :)
Did you ever reflow the solder? Did it fix it?
hope your business is a success learn a lot from you
Great video thanks hope to see more. That bridge conection is maybe current shunt for mesuring current. If you can next time mesure the blower motor voltage or current with scope to see brushing . Try remove that transistore an check it
Awesome job Ivan.
Good luck on the business - wish you were in my neck of the woods.
so where's the blower motor at In case it's to be changed out?
I gotta wonder, why was the battery replaced? Granted, the one in the car had been there but replacing it because the cables are corroded, that doesn't balance out to me. Was the old battery load tested? Maybe the terminals needed a good cleaning and top-off of the water? I understand the desire to have a reliable battery but that's a decent cost in addition to the other work.
+Nate Rowe Because we take off the terminals and clean them, put everything back nice and tight and let the car run for 20 minutes only to realize that by the time it got to us the battery is toasted. Loose terminals do get tightened and a lot of the time that does allow the battery to charge/discharge correctly, but tight and corroded terminals that battery is a goner. Regular cleaning can help a battery last longer, but once it gets to that point it's too late.
+Derrick Hodges But Ivan, along with a bunch of other logical automotive techs on UA-cam, try to take a methodical approach. The corrosion itself could have been the issue. Corrosion that bad is likely inside the cables too which could very well mean that even if you clean the terminals and throw a new battery on, you still get poor amperage transfer due to corroded cables.
Maybe it's a learned thing that a seasoned mechanic can spot a mile away but I would have liked to see a load test on the battery outside the car. There's a lot of people that would throw a battery or a starter at a problem in hopes that it fixes an issue. Just kinda surprised me that Ivan threw the battery in without going into much detail on it.
Nate Rowe It's just an experience thing I suppose. Investigate when necessary. Had a Mercedes owner in today with a message on the instrument cluster "left brake light out", no power to the socket, no power from SAM module. Parts labor and reprogram is about $1,500 for a brake light not working. Got them back on the road with working lights and no error messages on the instrument cluster for under $300.
Technically speaking, that much corrosion it's time to replace the battery, even if it means you warranty it, shouldn't vent that much acidic fumes. Cleaning them won't prevent them from corroding again, eventually ruining the terminals/battery tray/nearby connectors.
+Nate Rowe Hey Nate, I knew someone out there would give me a hard time about "throwing a battery in it" lol!
Don't worry, I would never do that...my recommendation was entirely evidence-based:
1) I did load-test the battery! If having the key on and playing with some accessories for 10 minutes drains the battery to cause a no-crank, then the battery most definitely failed the load test.
2) Not worried about the terminal corrosion impeding current flow. Customer had no complaints about slow cranking prior to this, and it started up fine after a few minutes of running. So the battery capacity itself is getting very low.
3) The corrosion itself means that there is acid leakage, and the only way to solve that is get a new battery :)
Basically you could call this preventative maintenance so the owner wouldn't get stranded a few months down the road!
Centrifugal fans pull way more amps when they are run in open air VS when they are run with ductwork. It seems backwards, but restrictions (ie heater core, ac coil, ductwork) actually reduces the power draw of a centrifugal fan. It's called runout.
I wouldn't be surprised if that new blower motor ran more like 15-20 amps if you actually installed it.
Great point! Now would it matter if the restriction was on the outlet or the inlet side of the fan?
Im going nuts. I have sane van but I can't find a motor that has a plug to fit the control mod. Any ideas why?
All I can say is " Make more Videos" ..I always look forward to your and Erics..Matt seems to have dropped of the face of the earth since starting his premium channel
+deepsquat600 He said most of February and March would be sparse due to traveling for work
was that the original part?
can you return the blower? i thought electronic parts were non-refundable.
I can't see how a 20A load is being successfully fed from a 10A fuse. I'm wondering if the motor current is a chopped DC waveform that doesn't register properly on your clamp meter. The TRMS function on multimeters is ONLY on the AC voltage ranges. If you have a current probe for your scope, check the motor current waveform to find out.
That "metal bridge" you found inside the module is actually a low value resistor, used as a shunt to measure the current drawn by the load, to provide feedback to the internal control circuitry.
+Bob Weiss Hey Bob, thanks for your thoughts! Where did you see a 10A fuse? The main blower fuse is 40A as I showed in Part 1.
Now you got me wondering...yes seeing the motor amperage on the scope would answer some questions. In this case the only thing we can say for certain is:
1) The new NAPA motor drew MORE current than the OEM fan, when fed by the module.
2) The OEM fan definitely drew 26A in Part 1 when connected straight to power and ground. In this setup that actually may be completely normal!
As far as the metal bridge, yes I think you are right. There are little traces going to the opposite sides of the bridge to sense the voltage drop across the shunt.
So that raises another question: is the smart resistor board self-protecting? Why did it allow 26A to the new motor, and only 20A to the old one?
Thanks for the insight!
+motoYam82 Could have sworn I saw 10A on the fuse in the first video. Have to go back and look....
Without reverse engineering the module it is difficult to say what the current sensing is used for. Possibly to allow an initial pulse of high current to get the motor spinning, followed by a lower current when running. May also be used to monitor and limit motor current to a certain range, which may allow for 25A or more as normal variation over life.
All the "smarts" in that module are in the parts you didn't really explore, the electronics between the PWM input and the base/gate of that power transistor or MOSFET mounted on the heatsink. This would include the feedback loop incorporating that current shunt resistor.
+Bob Weiss It is fuse number 10 with 40Amps.
+Willem Streutgers Just saw that. :) Knew the 10 in my mind came from somewhere...
Is he calling to resistor a module?
Good luck to you Ivan good video.
Anybody notice there is a 40A fuse for blower in fuse box? That was a clue!
Good deal I hope your business works out, it ought to be handy fro the customers
Hi Ivan the best way to clean this battery terminal is boling water will get the like new very good video thank you for chering with as
another great repair video cheers
The second I took mine to ground, the fan motor has ran fine on it's own with no changes.
Hey! There was a crack in the power MOSFET Transistor! I think you have to replace this to repair this module. But anyways, i like very much your Videos! BR from Switzerland
Hi motoYam82 I working on 95 corvette and last time I replace brand new battery and starter.when I tried to crank it motor turns over for 3 -4 seconds and then sorts of die (starter motor is working really hard to spin the engine) and then stop even you dont let go of ignition.I have tried remote starter switch but it's same result.Do you have any thoughts or suggestion ? (all the fuse are good ,no corrosion as I inspected )
+djmerce67 Measure starter amperage with an ampclamp. You either have poor connections at the main feed/ground to the starter (current too low), have a defective starter motor, or the engine crankshaft itself is abnormally hard to turn over (current will be excessive, like over 200A).
First of all thank you for your quickest response.I will go check amp.thank you for your time and videos.
Are they gonna take that new blower motor back? I thought electrical parts are non-returnable!
They took it back no problem :) I think that no-return policy generally applies to "smart" electrical parts like modules and such.
Congratulations on your first totally independent diagnosis and repair job. Would selling the service of diagnosis, leaving the r&r part of the job to a mechanic, be a viable option for your business?
+Seppa Yup I would mainly do diag work, and offer a repair if it's "parking lot friendly" :)
+motoYam82 That's what I've been thinking all along Ivan, you're pretty much the ScannerDanner of your neck of the woods. I'd personally love to be able to hire a diagnostician to troubleshoot certain pesky problems and then do the repair myself. You have the high level skills, the equipment, and the resources to do what many a DIYer simply can't.
Still a better design than the POS resistor "card" in a Liberty.....
another great video, keep em comin
Start carrying around a 20oz bottle of water and baking soda mix. Works great and cheap.
Hi Ivan,
Great video, you need to add support this channel option. Keep up the good work.
Omar
summer 90 and sunny in the middle of a parking lot ;)
to clean the battery post try baking soda and lemon
25 amps sounds super high, but that's only 300w @ 12V. Sounds like a realistic value to me.
good video ivan, i will say..you made me cringe, blowing off dry dusty corrosion from the battery lol, i know napa sells a spray..i can't remember the name right now, it's on my toolbox at work, but it foams up and makes the corrosion more like...sludge, so you don't breathe all that garbage in your lungs
Basically a badly designed circuit board on these then as there was no excessive current drawn thru it, just a matter of time before they ALL fail in this mode too. Tiny wraps of bare copper wire on the thru board portion of problem legs would allow for more solder/electrical contact with problem legs to remain conductive to the circuit board. Best to desolder them before wrapping too. Simple reflow results in just resetting the time clock for when this goes south again, more contact area between pins and board is the fix. Longer pins and bent over to the board is the OEM fix that will never get done before a design change moots the issue entirely. Sad state of affairs really.
+Lee Barnes Ha I'll gladly reset the clock if it last 15 more years :)
+motoYam82 Well, pulling out the practical card like that isn't really playing fair. :) We have to get the trained monkeys to make these things right in the first place and if we let them slide on this issue where will the world be? They put the silkscreen on, they put the green fingernail polish on and after 50 years they finally are putting on a really decent heat sink, so now they need to learn to cut the legs off 1/4 inch longer on +10 amp components and fold them over so the solder wave can nail them such that we don't see pulled legs or hot spots on 20 amp circuit boards no more. The saying goes something like this, 'I've upped my standards, so now they have to go and up theirs.' All things considered, that really is a sweet controller, I'm impressed with it - just needs a bit of tweaking.
haha if the engineers do their job too well, I'll be unemployed!!
I have to yield at this point, you keep pulling that practical card on me and it's too much better than any of my points... :)
That's my inner practical engineer talking LOL
Goodjob
The power transistor on this module died. Take a close look at 13:26 and you will see the crack in the transistor case.
Good luck for your business, I hope growing your business doesn't keep you from filming your diagnoses and repairs... :-)
+TheToaol Hopefully it will provide even MORE opportunities to film interesting cases!
you might want to think about a trailer to work out of instead of the SUV. Big enough to house your test equipment and you.
+Gary Johnson But would I need the SUV to tow the trailer? Originally I was going to use my Mazda MPV van, but it's too rusty to be "presentable" lol
+motoYam82 you will be on call and ready for whatever. I had a remodeling business a few years back and I purchased a used 14' covered trailer that was 6' wide and 7' tall and I pulled it with a pickup truck. It sure made life easier for me because I was able to carry tools and had a work space to boot.
NICE!
It's not wise to blow around battery acid/dust with your mouth or an air nozzle. ;)
You are inteligente you vídeo help me