Hey everyone, I hope you enjoyed my analysis of The Last of Us Part II. Now it's up to you, I'd love to hear what you thought about the game. If you enjoy my content, consider supporting me at www.Patreon.com/RobinGaming for early access to scripts and videos. Thanks a lot for watching!
Another thing to note is you are required to only kill three people in the firefly hospital, Ethan, the surgeon, and Marlene. Also you could argue what Joel did was self defense because the surgeon held a knife up to him.
Another thing about Joel is how you explore his house after his death. In the first game we never really learned about Joel's passions and activities he did outside of the smuggling stuff, so walking through his house and seeing all of those sculptures he made, and the songs he wrote really humanized him which made his death hurt a lot more.
Something else I noticed was that he had a book called "space for beginners" or something along those lines, and he basically started to read space related things so that he can relate and have conversations with Ellie. He really loved her man, it sucks he had to go out this way😪
dylan ameziane I mean, ya, Joel’s important to the story, but he’s really more of a plot device in Part 2 than he is an actual character. Not saying that’s inherently bad, but saying that this is “Joel’s story” seems a little ridiculous to me. It’s Ellie and Abby’s story, and Joel is just something that both of them are dealing with throughout the game.
waaat. I'm sorry that's just ridiculous. Ik they went for a more serious tone in 4, but you can't just have a complete departure from what the series is about. Uncharted at the end of the day is based on pulp adventure shows, it's not some gritty thriller....smh.
Aside from the fact that Kratos has done worse...that's only if you ignore all the context around it. Ellie essentially murdered almost everyone that Abby loved in that same night.
@@majorevangelism Kratos has doneMUCH worse. I'm saying not even he could express satisfaction at prospect of murdering a pregnant woman and remain a sympathetic character.
Y’all act like she said good because she loves the concept of killing a pregnant woman. She said good because her pregnant friend was just murdered by Ellie and in the heat of the moment, she wanted to do the same to thing to a pregnant friend of Ellie. When lev stops her you can see Abby realizes she’s wrong. It’s not that complicated
Ellie didn't know that she was pregnant. She learned that only after she killed her. Abby, on the other hand, learned that Dina was pregnant while attempting to kill her.
@@L4anK. According to Abby, Ellie had murdered Mel knowing she was pregnant. She also killed Owen, Nora, and so many others. On the flip side, I would say that Abby killing Jessie was a reflex action/self-defence. Jessie and Ellie both barged in through, at once with their guns drawn. It was a split-second decision that would most likely have resulted in her death had she not fired first.
Yeah, Robin was saying that "Abby's activities are in complete contrast to those of Ellie, which I will say is often mirrored to you as a player in overly transparent ways" (31:00), then he simplified the moments he listed in very transparent ways. Ellie doesn't just stab dogs for fun. She does it in self-defense. The dog in the Aquarium literally attacked her first. Ellie does know mercy. She literally did it at the end of the game. Ellie didn't even know Mel was pregnant when she killed her, which again was in self-defense, and he did not go over how the realization was so traumatic she agreed to go home. As Robin mentioned, the aim is to show perspective, not that there are objectively right or wrong characters, so obviously these scenes apply to Ellie as well. Abby and Ellie are not completely contrasting characters. They are very similar. The game just shows them at different stages of the same cycle. Abby was on a redemption arc, whereas Ellie was on the revenge arc. Abby started to come to terms with how shitty a person she became in getting her revenge, whereas Ellie ultimately decided to end it before it took over her humanity. Abby learned this the second time, when she spared Dina. Abby in the beginning of the game would have done it. Ellie stopped it the first time, so she avoided the same downfall as Abby when and after she killed Joel.
Unfortunately, when a story does things that snap you out of it, it has already failed to do its job. The thing about aggravation is, once it settles in, you find every excuse in the book to hate that thing. And that signals a deeper, more fundamental problem with TLOU2, its over-indulgence of what it seeks to do or say about the medium, and sacrificing the things we loved about the story to achieve that end. I personally had zero issues with Joel dying, playing as Abby, or the ending. My bigger issue is that the themes that Naughty Dog wanted to play with in PART 2 run counter to the idea of *_'satisfaction',_* which is something that is inherent to this medium. Naughty Dog could have injected more scenes like the one where Ellie demonstrates wit, intelligence, charm, and strategy to turn the tables against the Rattlers who ensnared her. The operative question is, _why _*_weren't_*_ there more scenes like that during her turn in Seattle?_ Because they don't want anything on Ellie's side of the story to be satisfying, or it would risk the audience enjoying her quest for revenge, which runs counter to their message. Contrast that with Abby, who has the better set pieces, more character development, and much more intrinsic exploration of the protagonist than on Ellie's side. You mentioned Dina having little development. This is precisely why. You're not supposed to "enjoy" Ellie's side of the story. This is the emotional manipulation that is heavy-handed, and telegraphed way too early. Naughty Dog couldn't decide whether they wanted you to be on Ellie's side at the beginning or not, because there's evidence to suggest either is true. Some will say Joel's death is supposed to send us on a righteous path of retribution against Abby, but if that were the intention, then why have Dina ask Ellie if Joel ever did anything to deserve retribution from others? Why have Dina question about Abby's agenda for leaving Ellie and Tommy alive? There's only one answer there, and it is because Druckmann wanted us to question Ellie's decisions. That puts us immediately at odds with a character we grew to love so much. Again, it's purposefully taking the satisfaction away from you. Now, fundamentally, the question being asked of the audience of the gaming industry is: Do you believe art that leaves you angry and dissatisfied fundamentally/generally a failure? I would argue, yes. Because countless movies and TV shows have left me sad and broken and confused, but all the greats have done it and left me with a sense of satisfaction. Unfortunately, sapping the satisfaction away and telegraphing the moral of the story also means you're then watching this slow car crash that you know deep down will not be kind to all involved, and not including any twist or turns good enough to change or transcend the narrative into something greater, but rather, just leaves it as a mimic of familiar stories that have done it better. I don't fault ND for doing something radical, because love it, or hate it, that's what this game is. But it was, in SkillUp's words, an experiment. One that unfortunately did not succeed (IMO ofc).
You definitely hit the nail on the head they seemingly purposely made Abby's campaign more set piece heavy with Gears/Resident Evil pacing to make it more fun. We were not supposed to be having fun as Ellie and that definitely hurts. Because I was not invested in Abby's story and their attempts at redeeming her were in vain.
@14:57 - sorry but have to counter that article....Joel's actions, while some may deem monstrous are not given the context of the post apocalyptic world where survival have turned most to do actions that in pre outbreak day would be seen as extreme. You understand the position he was in: 1) the Surgeon wanted to kill him to prevent him from taking Ellie, that was the surgeons choice he could have let Joel take Ellie and then try to track her down later with the remaining fireflies 2) Fireflies didn't consult with Joel or Ellie before deciding to sacrifice Ellie's life to maybe create a vaccine - and who knows how a vaccine would have corrupted the fireflies politically being a super power by weaponising the cure, would they give it to the scars or wlf? No right. 3) Fireflies held Joel at gun point before giving him a chance to see/speak with Ellie - given that situation Joel kicked into fight and flight mode because of how aggressively the Fireflies handled the situation and how they were essentially making him go through losing a daughter yet again with no say in the matter, he had grown to care for Ellie like a surrogate father figure - and anyone that has a child would do this 10 times out of 10. 4) this led to him to do whatever he had to do to save Ellie before time ran out as she was prepped for surgery, he was not able to save Sarah 20 years ago but he was resolute to save Ellie at all costs and redeeming himself, you can question his methods but that is our reality vs his reality i.e Post outbreak day and the 2 are not the same so it is not that easy. Every action he took felt human with no ambiguity.
Yeah, I've conveyed these same exact points to my friend as well, who viewed Joel as the bad guy after playing TLOU2. Joel & the fireflies both have done some right & wrong in how the hospital scene played out. Neither can outright be called bad or good, but I definitely see Joel more in the right as he is purely retaliating to them not giving Ellie a choice over her life. If Naughty Dog wanted to make Joel 100% the bad guy in the first game, they would have had the fireflies consult them with the outcome & Ellie telling Joel she wants to go through with it, and then if he still killed all of them & took her out of there, he'd surely be bad. But it was done perfectly as we got it. However, I found the second game backtracking on this & showing Joel as the clear bad guy with Abby, the fireflies & her Dad as the good guys, I did not like or agree with that.
I agree 100%. As a father I would happily doom humanity if it meant I get to save my daughter.. blood or not she is Joel's baby girl, just like Sarah was. Joel was guilty of being a loving father that's all.
The most human thing to do in that situation is too save Ellie 100%, but still there lies the underlying fact that he may be taking away the chance of a cure, even if it was weaponized or used as an advantage (which seems unlikely). Joel isn't a hero, he's more of an anti-hero. He's done bad things, he is a shitty person. Who wouldn't be after holding their daughters dying body in their arms and being worn down by 20 years of the apocalypse. But he is actively trying to repair himself and open up, but that comes at the cost of a cure and countless lives. Thats just my opinion, that's why the ending of this game is so interesting, it makes so many players think and feel differently.
Men will burn entire countrysides to the ground if it means saving their children. They will always forgo being an angelic figure if what's at stake is the pure innocence that is their offspring, because to them their morality is not more important than a child's right to life. I appreciate them being nuanced with the surgeon Jerry but their brief look at him doesn't make up for his impression in the first game so he doesn't look as human as Joel. They are not equals in this setting and so to try and convince the player that Joel deserves to be dead for killing Jerry is LUDICROUS. You can make the player understand Abby but this game fails to make you see her as a moral equal to Ellie. And then there's the fact that the premise of a revenge plot during such a severe post-apocalypse is pretty asinine to begin with. You can die from just walking 20 minutes out of town and getting ambushed by a single zombie and you're going to put your life on the line for revenge? I don't buy that any of these people are possibly that stupid, including Abby. This is what makes me kinda like Owen, because it's like he's the only self-aware character of how fucked up everything was about going about revenge killings in such a setting. Grief might be able to drive you somewhat mad but it essentially provoked Tommy & Ellie to participate in a literal suicide mission, because they have no reason to believe they are more invincible than any one individual WLF mook they come across. I seriously do not buy this premise with the way it's done. Maybe if Joel was taken hostage instead. A tension-filled rescue mission could drive all these characters to equal if not greater insanity while still making sense of why someone would risk death to pull off such a mission. But when the person you care about is already dead, what's the point of digging your own grave unless you literally wish suicide upon yourself? Ellie and Tommy surely would know Joel would want them to do the opposite of everything they did but the writers decided to not give them a single ounce of self-awareness. This is not a setting where this kind of plot makes sense without the characters being delusional to their in-universe limitations.
I still to this very day don’t know what to think. There are stuff that I disagree with not Joel’s death, but rather characters decisions which didn’t feel like a decision they would ever make. But on the other what game has made me feel so much in one play through. Answer is none. On one hand it’s an amazing game, on the other there are flaws.
Igor Rychert In life, people grow and they change. Given the circumstances, some is more secure than another. Who knows if Joel is the same person in the last game. Plus people makes mistake and thats just life. Something the devs said that stick to me is that we as a player think that we know more about these characters than the devs, well we aint. So thats just my point on those “out of character “ of Joel and Tommy.
legend dary Nah I don’t have any problems with Joel’s death like I said or their decisions. I could later down the line understand it. My bigger problem is with the farm sequence. Before I get into that, I don’t enjoy the fact that naughty dog tried to make us sympathize with Abby by showing how bad Ellie is. U know Ellie killing dogs, Killing people, torture them etc while Abby saves animals, pets the dogs, saves people etc. I to this day don’t understand the point of why Ellie ever had a life with Dina if she never meant what she said in the first place. And it may just be me, that seems somewhat of a happy ending for at least Ellie, but hear me out. Ellie has PTSD and survivors guilt since Joel gets killed. She then talks about that perfect life with Dina on a farm, she tells her in Seattle that she never wants to loose her (keep in mind it took them months to travel from Jackson to Seattle, so she has had PTSD for months). And there’s a certain point in the story where Ellie realizes that she needs to choose between Abby and Dina. Leaving Seattle without revenge and killing Abby, but let Dina carry on with her pregnancy in a safe environment or endanger her more for each hour spent in Seattle. She chooses Dina. When Tommy asks her if she’s okay with her still being alive, she answers with “it must be”. So she’s willing to let Abby live so Dina can return. (Also don’t get why Tommy was after revenge in the epilogue when he himself said that they got what they deserved and was ready to leave even with Abby left alive). So in short Ellie chooses Dina in every scenario even after months with PTSD. We get to the farm house. She gets PTSD, Tommy comes tells her that she found her, and she decides to leave Dina, leave her perfect life and knowingly loose Dina. And the fact that she didn’t even flinch when Dina makes it clear that she will leave, she basically says “sounds like a u problem”. Idk man this kind of pissed me off. Farm house felt like it was implemented just to show u how much she will loose and Dina was basically lied to... That’s just my opinion
Igor Rychert a few thoughts are coming to mind after watching the video and reading your comments. I didn’t really care for the contrasting between Ellie killing dogs and Abby petting them. Ellie pet a dog in Jackson and killed dogs that were aggressively trying to prevent her from completing her mission. Abby played with dogs in Seattle but I don’t get the impression she would have behaved and different from Ellie if that was what it took to get revenge on Joel. I’ve never followed that Ellie kills dogs to somehow soil her character. Regarding your point about the trip to Seattle...how did you determine it took months??? I assumed it was maybe a few days. Regarding your larger point related to Ellie’s relationship with Dina, I saw a comment on another video who made an interesting observation. Ellie isn’t wearing Dina’s bracelet in Santa Barbara; however, she is wearing it when she returns to the farm. The commenter concluded this showed Ellie had already reconciled with Dina. He further supported this theory by noting that Ellie never seems to be searching for Dina or seems to be affected by her absence. Thought this was an interesting spin on the end of the game.
To me, when you say “I don’t hate Abby, I just don’t care”. That is exactly what I felt, and honestly its the harshest criticism imaginable. By the end, I barely even cared about Ellie either. It was all exhausting and I wanted it to be over. Ellie was unrecognizable while she used to be that sparky young lady in a bleak world. Imagine if in Uncharted 2, Nathan Drake was killed by Chloe in the second hour, and then we played as Elena and Chloe going forward? These things are okay (killing a main character), that can be pulled off (along with Tarantino-izing the timeline), however this requires razor-sharp writing skills, and IMO Druckmann failed. This game was so bloated. At least half of the game could have been omitted, and the same story could have beeb told. The problem is, the extra long game-time, the sidetracked stories and forgettable characters, took me out of what was really going on. By the time we got back to the actual story line, it had been so long, all emotional impact and care that I felt, was gone. A film can do this, because its only 2-3 hours long. Neil is talented, but he took a risk here and it just didn’t work for a lot of people. Thats okay. I’m growing tired of any criticism of this game, being associated with only bigots, closed-mindedness, or petitioners trying to get the “their game” remade. There are legitimate things to criticize here, and plenty of people who played the entire game, don’t care that Joel died, and could care less about inclusivity.....have things to say. I’ll be honest, I loved TLOU, and never really connected much to Uncharted. I never understood the love for that series. Its fine....the cinematic action sequences were really cool when they were new. By Uncharted 3, the novelty wore thin for me. Now, I’m a single father of a 12 year old young lady. So of course I can easily put myself into Joel’s shoes. Now that TLOU2 is out, I’ve heard people say that Joel was THE villain, that Joel and Ellie’s relationship was “creepy” or “perverse”, and that destroying the strong male presence is the obvious way forward. Look, can we all not agree that we love a good anti-hero? Joel is a tragically flawed character.....ya know? Like most people? We don’t dislike Rey or Captain Marvel because they are women, we dislike them because they are perfect. They have no struggle. Nothing to overcome. We like to see a broken human put themselves back together. Whats HILARIOUS to me, is Druckmann saying over and over again that, “We knew this game would be divisive,” yet now they are shocked by the divided fan-base??? Really? They have contacted the few professional journalists to criticize the game, in order to inquire why they did this???? Seriously? This alone makes it clear to me, that we have a wannabe auteur with his head so far up his own ass, that he ignored editors, he ignored playtesters, he knew exactly what he was doing.....and now? “Ahhh shucks, why is everybody so worked up? Jeez, its just a game. Excuse me Mr Critic.....did you not see this part or understand that part?”
Captain marvel is not perfect, check the comics and u will see she is weak and there are other women’s in marvels universe stronger, but like naughty dog marvel cinematic pull a agenda on her character to make her the strongest of all and that’s why people hate on her, but yeah u always gonna get that haters
Well said my man, well said! I’m just like you, but in regards to the last of us. It didn’t connect to me like it did to others, but I can clearly see the huge difference between the first part and the second. I feel the pain for the fans that were very attached to the game and got really disappointed with the second part.
I loved the game and the story and the risks really clicked with me. To me this is the best game and game story ive played. But your criticisms are valid and if you read Neils tweets its not your criticisms that hes saying need to stop. If you read his twitter or laura baileys people are literally giving them and their death threats and throwing some really fucked up shit. That is sexist and anti semetic. Again not liking the game and have criticisms with yours is valid and totally okay. But wanting them to die is so fucked up and wrong. Thats not okay at all and thats what people are saying
my sweet innocent Joel was killed by Trans character with golfclub, they betrayed him, he suppose to keep killing without repercussion, I hope Tommy Sue Naughty Dog for betraying him, they made me play as Abby which gave me nightmares, and in the end my sweet angel Ellie who torture Nora didn't kill Abby, Wink 😉 Joel is a killer who killed innocent people before even he me Ellie, Even Troy (Voice) Says so, he had it Coming, he deserve to die for what he did, the problem with a lot of people is that they want easy story where they get to kill everyone and became the hero like every other game
Abby is the villain of the story. Why? Because Joel saved her life and she killed him. Ellie should’ve killed Abby. The entire game is meaningless and pointless. Because the main villain of the story lives and the hero loses everything.
All Abby got was Lev, all of her friends are dead and returning to her home isn't a option anymore. She basically becomes the Joel to Levs Ellie. And Ellie has hope for returning to Jackson and repairing things with Dina, the ending leaves too many open doors to say someone lost everything.
19:04 Actually, Neil Druckmann himself admitted in an interview that they altered the trailers on purpose to hide the fact that Joel died at the very beggining. I mean, its on video, and he seems to be proud of it...
I think it was a very good idea for them to alter the trailers to hide what the story was about. I remember in the avengers infinity war trailers they added characters, and removed objects from certain shots so it would be impossible to figure out the story before hand and I loved it there. What I think was dishonest for TLOU2, is that they seemed to heavily sugest this would be a Joel And Ellie game when it wasn't. I think if they made it clear that Joel was going to only be a very small part of this game and that it will center more around new characters without telling you about Joel his death that would've been better.
@@vickey111 You can feel Joel's presence throughout the game, though. Not only does he appear in many flashbacks but Ellie is basically trying to BE Joel during her revenge quest. But she's not Joel and that's one of the reasons things don't work out well for her. It's sort of like how the Joker was dead in Arkham Knight yet he was there all the same.
Is this not common practice? Hulk is seen with the other Avengers in the Infinity War trailer, while in reality Hulk refuses to come out throughout the movie.
Naughty Dog: "diversity is as important as gameplay and graphics" The result: "¡Qué pendeeeeejo wey! ¡Let's go get some burritos with PICANTEEEEEE!" - the walking mexican stereotype
@@deadmeme4276 As a Latin (a Argentinian) I can confirm that last one. Tho the eyes of Naughty Dog and Neil Druckmann by a Mexican Latino in EEUU is by a minority. That's why exists the character of Manny. Is a race is not a gender, so if I want watch a Latin character I gonna view a Latin Movie. I miself ask Mexican people in twitter about Terminator: Dark Fate and all hate that movie.
@@FilthyCasual_YT lmao what? There are multiple mentions of him having chicks over, theres even a bra from a chick he had over you find when playing as Abby since her and Manny are/were roommates
This story that Druckmann created should NEVER have been. You can excuse it all you want, but to me its all pointless and just serves to stroke Druckmann's pretentious ego. I've played and beaten the game, and while I like portions of it, the story is an absolute mess and the direction was a terrible mistake. It feels like a F-U & middle-finger to fans. I will NEVER buy another game from ND ever again. And I know that I'm not alone with this sentiment.
@@yorkejones1570 You couldn't be more wrong. I've been gaming for 40+ years and have played every Naughty Dog game, beginning with "Way of the Warrior" for the ill-fated 3DO. I've played all the Uncharted games and the Last of Us. I DON'T play On-line, because I don't like it (not my cup of tea). And how does any of this render my opinion moot? What, if I did play On-line that would mean what? I've been playing videogames for a long time, I've watched many movies over my life and still read several books every year...I know what a good story is, and I know what a terrible story is, and the LoU2 is utter trash.
i wonder what would have happened if they faked their name like that? Like are they gonna chill, cup of tea, chit chat and the golf club never mudded with blood.
@@lucasmaury2627 I don't think Abby recognised either of them until they introduced themselves. I think Abby put two and two together once Joel's name was mentioned.
The last of us part one is my favourite game in my 30 years of gaming. It just hit a note that resonated with me. The last of us part two is the biggest disappointment in my 30 years of gaming. I sincerely wish they never made it.
Part 1: Lets make an amazing, hearttouching story, gamers will love it! Part 2: Lets make a provocative, ideas-pushing piece of art, oh and its also a video game I guess. The first game was made for the gamers, the second game was made for the creator and just the creator. Regardless of any sense of ownership, if you are in buisness and intend on making something, anything that people are meant to buy, making it just for yourself is utterly failing at your job.
@@GuardianSeyden just because it's not everything you ever wanted in a game doesnt mean the creator made it for themselves that's just a stupid way if thinking
@@akraman7274 you're clearly in denial still. All one needs to do is look at the story and writing and characters in part one. Then look at the same,or in some cases lack thereof, in part 2
i totlay agree. Part 2, make a bold mistak to make us "try care about abby/ lew and her father", but in the same time dont care about 1000 NPC killed in the same time. Even worst. they make retarded plot where PREGNANT women like in 5 month pregnancy go to yourney just to kill some guy in ZOMBIE APOCALYPSE WORLD. Thats whay this story suck. WE DONT CARE ABOUT ABBY. for us she was just daughter of NPC, and any scene with cute doggy, cringe sex scene or when she resuce Lev, dont make her for us a HERO of this story. AND the worst mistake. THIS ENDING. WHICH have no sense. LItelary is just RAMBO simulator and this awkard boss fight with ABBY... just to let her go... WTF 6/10
I think Neil let his head get to him and that ego and obsession with social hot topics greatly worsened the writing for part 2. I just found the pacing and characters so mediocre compared to part 1. I don't fault people for being upset because they feel they were tricked by the advertising. Also the amount of borderline retconning they did for the Fireflies in part 2 was questionable imo. All of the sudden a cure was pretty much guaranteed and they were good guys, no questions asked? I don't know. It was impossible for me to get into this game but I'm glad the people who enjoyed it had fun. Abby's campaign would have been better received if it were a spin off or DLC imo but hey I'm not a ND exec.
You're so right about the ego thing. Really sounds like Neil overestimated his own writing skills and tried to tell a highly risky story he didn't have the writing skills to pull off. I'll give him credit for taking a risk, but nothing more.
@irox1914 I personally don't see 14 year old Ellie growing into 19 year old Ellie either. Ive seen the gradual change ND released but it's too harsh a change for me to believe. I never saw anyone growing up that had their face change so much in 4 years. Character models just change. Look at the new Horizon game. Aloy looks very different.
@irox1914 It doesn't help that you find a recording of that doctor pinning his hopes on Ellie's immunity to literally be the it factor for creating a vaccine, when they have continuously experimented on numerous people of different infection levels and have produced literally nothing from it. How was this going to be any different? The lead up to that scene in TLOU 2 just unwittingly reaffirms the viewer/players' decision to agree with Joel's decisions and actions in that hospital. They literally retconned that to make it so Joel was in the wrong the whole time and this was the experiment that was going to save the world (even though there was no guarantee of that happening).
Neil Druckmann was a great writer/director for the first instalment, but with the feminism ideologies are implemented into the story; that's where it feels redundant. I just wish he would concentrate on the quality of the narrative and neglect the overall political stuff that was included in the sequel.
It’s incredible how desperately they tried to manipulate you into liking Abby, even at the expenses of Ellie and Joel, and even in gameplay terms Abby gets the best gameplay sections, the best scenarios, the best boss fights, the best weapons and a better melee combat And In the story they try to portray Joel’s decision as objectively wrong instead of a understandable morally grey decision that many people would have done the same, in this they beat us in the head with: “its wrong, he is a monster, he killed a doctor savior of zebras and so on” You know the character is terrible when you need to paint your previous protagonist as monsters and being in the wrong instead of flawed yet relatable humans and downgrade their gameplay in order to make your new face of the franchise tolerable and still fail
I totally see where you're coming from, but I personally felt like the game wasn't actually making any judgements at all! I felt like it was saying "All these characters can be seen as wrong and monsters, but at the same time, each characters can also be seen as right and justified from their perspectives due to their past traumas." I think that made it more impactful, and more disturbing in a very real and honest way!
Brian Pater yes!!!! That’s exactly how I felt it was like yes Joel seems like an absolute monster from abbys perspective and Ellie seems like a monster to Abby but seeing both persvpectives I know that’s not the case and that’s what makes it so tragic.
Brian here has taken the words out of my mouth.. the above is literally regurgitated angry joe review😅 In my opinion everything about ellies half was better, knife combat felt excellent, bolt action for the win in anything and even aesthetically.. ellie was a far cooler looking character. Do I wish this game was 28 hours of ellie? I did and I still kind of do.. do I think the end result was worth it, i do. Arguing about this game is jokes online now but my personal experience with this game was next to none.
I liked abby more than Ellie for gameplay reasons, she's just so much more fun to play than Ellie, I didn't care about the story since it was so tragic that it became a comedy
What annoyed me about the story is realizing it had nothing to do with the last of us or Joel and Ellie. It could have been inserted into any franchise and the message would stay the same. We wanted a sequel for Joel and Ellie
@@wazzupman245 yeah but he means it could happen to anyone. If anyones father is killed you want revenge and this didn't have to be Joel and Ellies story. I am fine with it though, but I love the first game way more
@Tyrius Wolfe I’m sure you can find characters that had a connection in any game. For example, Rafe could have killed Sully and Nathan could have gone looking for him and they could have made you kill his pregnant wife and he could have almost killed pregnant Elena and they could have made you play half the game as Rafe
@@PassportGaming The only thing special about Joel and Ellie is that Ellie is immune. They already effectively resolved that plot line in the first one, so it's not like they could retread that same plot line again. Also I would disagree that this could happen to anyone with a strong bond. Joel did some fucked up shit, so it creates the potential to empathize with Abby even if you're mad at her for killing Joel. In her eyes Joel not only killed her father, but also a man who was the only savior of the world.
Intentions don't matter if they can't be conveyed properly. Indifference is no better than boredom and that's what most people felt while playing this game. My biggest gripe was with how terribly written the story is. It's full of nonsensical plot holes and character motivations as well as not even being able to commit to their "revenge is bad" ideal. By refusing to apply the same consequences to both characters. Its a piece of shit polished to look like a diamond. It might be pretty to some, but in essence it will always be that. (piece of shit might be a bit too harsh but I couldn't think of a different analogy)
@@rudfilmsstudios do you have anything of value to provide to the conversation? Or are you just gonna keep attacking the people to avoid dealing with their criticisms of the game?
I was bothered by one thing about the game that I have never heard in any review. It was how invulnerable some characters seem to be. Best examples are Tommy, Ellie and Dina. Tommy was shot by Abby in the head, or at least in the head area, and yet he somehow survived that. Dina got an arrow in the shoulder and her head was beaten by Abby several times on a concrete floor. Consider Abbys upper arm muscles. Ellie literally bled from her eyes and her arm was broken. Nevertheless these three people managed to escape from a city infected by fungus zombies, which is also flooded by enemy factions and generally in a desolate state! Later Ellie was impaled in the kidney area and she survived that too. Even with this serious injury, she made it home alone again. Also Abby was tied on a stake for several days, standing, half starving and half dying of thirst and still survived a fight with Ellie. These were all very unbelievable moments for me. Was I the only one for whom this was so unbelievable?
Nope. I've also got a question regarding some blatant deus ex machinas. For example: where the fuck did Yara come from when Abby fought Tommy? She had one hand, she was super far away and then she suddenly appeared just in time to stab Tommy? I hate situations like this so much.
It's called plotarmor. The game and the characters just seem to do things that are there for plot convenience. They act in completely illogical ways because the story requieres them to do so. Furthermore the game has a heavy reliance on coincidenceses, especially in the prologue where Joel just runs into Abby, which just seems like lazy writing.
@@Zoeconium I know what that is. Nevertheless, I found this much more annoying than any alleged agenda. Nevertheless I liked the gameplay and except for the plotarmor I liked the story development.
They’re main characters. It’s called plot armor. You see how the side characters easily died. Same reason Goku will always beat the main villain. It’s in every form of entertainment.
Aiman 2346 yeah but that’s kind of different you play as Ellie for what? Maybe an hour? And it doesn’t feel forced. But u play as abby for more than 10 hours and it definitely feels forced I hated every minute playing as her.
@@Aiman-yu6qg That's not a lie. We play as Joel for 95% of the game and just play as Ellie for 5%. They straight up lied and said this was Joel and Ellie's story and that Ellie was the only playable character but we play as Abby for half of the game and she's Joel's killer. We also are forced to fight Ellie as Abby and the entire story is centered around her instead of Ellie and Joel.
21:20 to 21:50 I'm sorry, but it just doesn't work for me. Abby is too far gone for me to ever care. Had she just shot him point blank, i'd probably be ok with ND's approach, but brutally torturing Joel to death after he had just saved her life, makes the character irredeemable for me. ND wanted the player to hate her at the start but they went so overboard with it, that when the other shoe is supposed to drop, it just doesn't. Playing as Abby also did absolutely nothing for the character. Even at the end of the Abby part she's ok with killing a girl who she knows is pregnant (It's Lev who stops her). Contrast this to Ellie, who got so fucked up from killing Nora that she abandoned her plan to kill Abby's friends and only accidently kills Mel, not knowing she's pregnant (this what you got completely wrong at 31:15 btw.). And once she finds out she's even more fucked up. We get nothing like this from Abby. Absolutely fucking nothing.
I'm not necessarily angry at Abby... but I am angry at how and why she was created. Naughty Dog was quite manipulative in how they wanted the player to view Ellie as the bad guy and Abby as the good guy. Some would argue that both characters were placed in a neutral light, yet, at least to me, it never felt that way.
It should have been Ellie that saved Abby. Then you would play as those 2 for most of the game and it isnt until later that you find out who Abby is what she's after. THAT would have actually created a real dilemma because you would actually like Abby instead of them trying to force her on you through really gross and obvious emotional manipulation.
I think an even better story would have been if Ellie and Abby were friends for years beforehand. Abby confides in Ellie what happened to her dad but isn't sure who's responsible and Ellie doesn't tell her the truth to protect Joel. When Abby finds out somehow, she kills Joel, then Ellie's revenge story begins. I think the revenge plot would have carried a lot more weight to it that way.
@Geralt of Trivia I bet every form of criticism towards TLOU 2 seems cryptic and vague to you. Cause I kniw exactly what these two mean and don't see how that's nearly vague.
I get that but the reason why I like the structure is because it is purposefully presents the "event" before the perspectives which mirrors the way we read about personal events in the news. We are purposefully not made out to spend time with abby in the beginning so that our first impressions of her is bad the same way we are introduced to people we read about in the news. Alot of people might only listen to one side of the story to feed their own righteousness to prove to themselves that their first impressions of that person were correct rather than challenging themselves with a different perspective. So halfway through this game it basically says to us that now it is our responsibility to walk a mile in the shoes of the person who has wronged us. I kinda like it imo
The entire point is to take a character you hate and ask you to understand them and empathize with them. What you're suggesting would be fine, I suppose, but it would be a completely different story with an entirely different purpose.
TLOU2 graphics were great but the story lacks substance and direction. It's arranged poorly and the decision to kill Joel early wasn't smart. That pregnant character running around was so cringe. Neil Druckman is trying so hard to force others to believe what he does. That's not a video game, that's propaganda. All the forced lgbtq+ takes you out of the story. It's very clear someone is preaching to you and it's not just a game. You should let each player make up their own mind rather than preach to them. Also, it poisons future developers who actually want to use a gay character or trans character to send a meaningful message. You know movies that just use excessive blood and guts to hide their lack of talent? It was just like that. I didn't find anything genius or though provoking about it. It was tasteless. Neil should be fired for incompetence. He won't though because his corrupt friends at Sony will protect him at the costs of the real geniuses that are debilitated from crunch.
Same thing will happen to Uncharted. It's already slowly implementing the same themes of forced diversity. They probably have a quota or something. It's crazy.
Yeah, but the game also had Fat Geralt punching a little girl's head so hard that she never woke up again. It gets some humor points for that moment alone.
Right? It’s like people forget that the only reason Abby didn’t kill Dina was only because Lev was there to stop her. Ellie didn’t even want to kill Mel or Owen and shockingly, on a rare occasion, acted in self defense (semi since she did start the conflict). Abby literally says “Good” as she’s about to knowingly and willingly kill a pregnant woman. Not only that but Ellie clearly suffers and feels remorse for killing Mel (as OP already stated) and from what we’ve seen we have never seen Abby feel bad for her kills
Zion Simanian Yeah, I think the main idea was to show that there is no moral right or wrong here. Both are seeking revenge on their father (or father figure) and are willing to perform atrocities without hesitation on their path for revenge. Neither woman is morally above each other and it makes you question whether supporting Ellie’s quest for revenge is justified after you learn what Abby also had to go through.
Abby walked into the scene of the dead bodies of her two friends. She didn't know Ellie unknowingly killed a pregnant woman - as far as she's concerned, Ellie did it in cold blood. I think she was acting out of pure spite at the point at which she said "good." Given what we'd been shown of Abby's character I highly doubt she would take joy out of killing a pregnant woman for any reason other than to get back at someone who killed *her* pregnant friend.
@@zionsimanian9310 Abby and Ellie's situations regarding the pregnant women are not the same: Ellie does show remorse after killing Mel, but Abby is intending to kill Dina as a response to that. The difference being that Abby is doing it in retaliation. So while, yes, they are both intending to kill the pregnant women and show different emotions while doing so, their motivators are entirely different. This is the point of the game.
I understand this sentiment although I think it is a separate issue from the quality of the game itself. I think it is natural to create an advertisement with a certain amount of misdirection. It was even more surprising that Naughty Dog had the media play a demo that seemed to place the Joel appearance into context and appeared to confirm his assisting Ellie on her revenge mission. I enjoyed the game but feel a bit uncomfortable with how far ND went to mislead the fan base.
Fernando Bernes I think it hurts more when you’re paying 60 bucks for a video game that’s narratively driven though. Being lied to in a movie trailer when you pay movie ticket price is a much easier pill to swallow. It’s still false advertising at the end of the day, you’re still attached to the characters, then they lie about the story. Every fan has a right to feel angry about being lied to, however you are only paying a small amount of money for a movie, compared to a game. That doesn’t change my opinion however that false advertising on every front no matter the price of the product should be condemned totally.
You hit the nail right on the head in this video: Naughty Dog sold this game to consumers as being about Joel and Ellie. I hope it was financially worth it to Naughty Dog to sacrifice consumer confidence in their studio, because you can only fool people like this once. While a lot of people thought Joel would die, to do that in the PREMISE of the game and then LIE about it in marketing AND prevent initial reviewers from mentioning it is immoral. It's one thing for reviewers to give it a 10/10, when it is more like an 8/10, but to fool consumers to get their money is despicable and further enraged players who were already going to be upset at how Joel was killed. It honestly seems like Naughty Dog wanted to infuriate their fans as part of some marketing stunt.
They didn't sell you on a lie, though. They just omitted playing as Abby. The game is still fundamentally about Joel and Ellie, as Joel's actions drive Abby's and Ellie's quests for revenge.
I agree the game IS about Joel and Ellie. They were also very clear that this game was going to be much more focused on Ellie. They made this apparent in both interviews and in the trailers. That being said they did take some unusual steps to mislead fans regarding Joel’s specific role. I get the criticism on this point but it didn’t affect my overall enjoyment of the game.
@@ZephyrFate I'm sorry but there is no like comma there. People didn't want a game that you have to look at from the side through crooked lens to make it seem like it was somehow connected to Joel and Ellie. They didn't want a game that was "fundamentally" about Joel and Ellie. They wanted a game that featured Joel and Ellie going on an adventure that further developed their characters
To say that Joel's impact is only like an hour and half of the game isn't true. He appears throughout the game in flashbacks. He is always on Ellie's mind. His presence is felt throughout. He may not be playable but he's there and very very much part of the story.
Not necessarily impact but rather how much time we see him on our screens. His death was the plot of the story but we only got to see him for about an hour from a 25 hour game
@@jomtz6739 It may not be much time but it's always a powerful scene. Playing guitar for Ellie, taking her to the museum, encountering that bloater while looking for guitar strings, and of course the death scene. Joel is part of the lowest lows and highest highs of the game.
I'm tired of this "your just mad because the story didn't go the way you wanted." We are allowed to not like something if we don't like the story. If you were reading LOTR and in the return of King sauron killed all the characters and won that would be a valid reason to not like the book. Same goes for this game.
I used to say the same thing as you do a couple of weeks ago. I kept making all kinds of excuses to not like the game. You can even still find some of my own arrogant comments trashing the game on many tlou2 related videos, and I’m not hiding that or deleting them. That was until I actually tried to understand the story. I bought it for myself and finished it twice, then and only then I really understood what the story was supposed to mean. It’s not about not liking the game because it didn’t go the way you wanted but rather have you At least tried your best to understand the plot? Or are you forcing yourself to not like it because the majority is saying so? Again, there are some flaws here and there, I won’t deny that. But, that in no way or form is a formidable excuse for the game to get all this kind of exaggerated hate.
@@ibrahimsafwat No Abe. I understand the plot. I'm not a toddler, it's not hard to understand. Tolkien was talented he could've written a plot that made sense in which Sauron won and you know what?... that would still suck. Stop it
You can dislike the story all you want , but people trash it and call it garbage JUST because they didn’t like it , but I respect where your coming from
I'm in the camp of despising this game, for one aspect only - how completely plain and uncompelling Abby is and how the game hands her all the moral karma, weighting everything 100% unrealistically against Ellie/the player. It really is infuriating. Imagine how differently the Abby character would be if, instead of just angelically telling her father, "if it was me, I'd want you to do the surgery", the father then turned to her and honestly asked, "What about Ellie, then? Should I do the surgery on her?" Instead, the narrative takes all that pressure off from precious little Abby, leaving us to grasp for any compelling hook we demand to have. And that's only one example. This game really was a cheap mindscrew on the part of Naughty Dog, and fans have every right to be angry and disappointed. Thanks for your comments, Robin. I appreciate them.
Agreed. Abby was a character clearly created for Druckmanns twitter following and a soft reboot and replacement for Joel and Ellie. It's glaringly obvious and absolutely disgusting
If they wanted a morally grey world. They could take inspiration from the New Vegas. Paint everything in red, not just one person in order to justify their "gotta end the revenge cycle" cliche story. People talking about how brave and unique story TLoU2 has, I have watched enough shounen anime to disagree... -_-
See, I’m not even mad about the direction they went with this game. It was almost expected. And I enjoyed the game. It’s the fact that Naughty Dog has lied multiple times about this game. That is what pissed me off and disappointed me. And then as soon as someone rates the game negatively, they say it’s because they’re homophobic. They have always been my favorite gaming company, but this has really shown their true colors. If they don’t start growing up, idk if I’ll want to support them anymore.
Amber Peterson it makes no sense to not change anything in the trailers at all, people already speculated that Joel’s gonna die, not changing anything is just stupid and naive
Their comments are directed to those that are actually homophobic. If you're not homophobic then it shouldn't affect you. Naughtydog, the cast, the staff, Laura Bailey all been getting death threats from homophobes and haters ever since they showed Ellie and Dina kissing at E3 trailer, even before the leaks. which is why (and can you blame them) for making that opinion? I think people are overly sensitive and let their emotions outweigh logic. That's why the game gets a lot of hate without any reason
Netson Eng you can make the trailer look like something it’s not but also NOT lie. The movie Hereditary’s trailer for example. It shows scenes that make you think one thing but is actually another without making up bogus scenes that never happen in the movie.
In Game Details I know there are homophobic people who are unfairly rating this game. But they assume that EVERY negative review is because the reviewer is homophobic. And that’s not fair at all.
It seems like people are reviewing Neil Druckmann as a person, naughtydog as a studio and the marketing material for being misleading....everything surrounding the game...but the actual game. And THIS is not fair at all. Or even honest. It's like a chef making a sandwich. And people are already hating the sandwich....cause on the menu it showed stars surrounding the sandwich (WHERE'S MY STARS???) and also did you know the chef is a SIMP. Crossing their arms and already rating the sandwich a 0/10 without even ordering the sandwich or even taking a bite. You have to eat it first before saying anything that is honest or valid, even if you hate the chef or didn't get the stars you wanted. It shouldn't even matter when reviewing the actual sandwich and how it actually tastes. Could it be the best sandwich you ever ate or the worst? YOU DONT KNOW UNLESS YOU TASTE IT. Who do you take seriously when fairly rating the sandwich? The person who actually ate the sandwich or the person who is already rating the sandwich based on the chef's reputation or personal life? Because logic should actually be, if people are normal that you'd take more seriously the person who ate the sandwich to give the honest opinion about the sandwich Same thing could be said for people already rating the sandwich a 10/10 just cause the sandwich is made by Gordan Ramsey doesn't mean it's automatically good. People these days need to eat the sandwich before properly rating it. Rather than judging the final product based on the creator's lives or the marketing (which should have been taken with a grain of salt) surrounding it. It's like the iPhone, people were like: "this is an amazing technology" until finding out that people in China are jumping off buildings creating it....but the fact still stands..... that it is an amazing piece of technology. You can't just suddenly say overnight that "it's bad 0/10" that's just insulting. You can hate Apple, Steve Jobs and the whole situation all you like but does it change how the iPhone looks or functions? Or how it influenced other technology we have today? Same thing with TLOU2, judge the game for what it is. Rather than allow everything around it cloud your honest opinion on the actual game.
@@aaronjoy980 I'm worried about the combat in Cyberpunk. The melee in particular looks horrific. I'm sure the quest creativity and variety will carry it along with the world and characters.
In my opinion the First Last Of Us didn't suffer from ludonarrative dissonance. We were put into a horrible world, and was told to do whatever it takes to survive. We always knew that if Joel didn't kill them, Joel and Ellie would be killed, every single encounter. Both the human and the infected firefights.
@UCQl_AUj9VD3QsC3SG269UjA I killed exactly one dog in a scene I had no controll over in which the character acted in self defense. I killed exactly 10 people in hill crest section (from vers first dog encounter until you meet the "lone male trespasser"). 6 people in the hospital section. Can't remember the rest like the park, the boat section or the scar part on the way to the hospital. Edit: specified hill crest section.
The game makes it nigh impossible to not kill people in it, it isn't like they give you non-lethal options to navigate the game. The game is specifically set up in its combat system that killing everything is mandatory and the easiest solution to get through the game. And then it wants to preach at you violence bad, revenge bad when the gameplay encourages you to be violent when dealing with enemies. That's what makes it so hypocritical.
Yeah it's weird, they wanted me to feel pity for the people who were trying to kill me during gameplay... the dogs were the only thing that worked for me in that regard
There is a very clear difference between Abby killing the wolves and scars they encounter who both have “kill on sight” policies and her torturing Nora for information. It’s just not the same situation
Yeah that’s the entire point of the story. It’s not being hypocritical, it’s showing the emotional toll violence takes on Ellie. Ellie is in the wrong through most of this story, but you’re forced to play as her because it’s her story, not your story.
Honestly, after the trailers I lost excitement from the game. It seemed to me that naughty dog was going to preach to me their message and force it down my throat. The first game provided a nuance and interesting take on relationship, what is right is very much left up to the player to decide. The first game felt natural, it had a good balance of despair and hope which allowed you to make it through hard times. The second game had lost all that hope and left just the despair while shaming you for doing the things the game forces you to do. The game shoves, "revenge is bad," so hard in your face while making you suffer through the events of the game for that exact reason. These points are what killed my motivation to play.
I disagree with 'revenge is bad'. It doesn't tho. It's more everything you do has consequences and there is always 2 sides of the story. But tbh the game has many messages I dont think you can conclude it to 1.
@@yorkejones1570 honestly thats a much more succinct way to put it. I suppose that still feeds into my complaint because you are getting punished over and over for actions you have no choice in. I think that is the root of my complaint is maybe the lack of choice in doing bad things so the message falls a bit flat when there is no choice involved? Hmm thanks for the comment because it gives me more to think about.
@@Nixsua I think they force you into doing things you don't want to for a reason. Even if you know you should stop, another person won't so they just wanted to present how much Ellie lost her mind due to revenge and for us to understand our actions can have consequences such as joel taking away ellie from possibly being the cure.
The thing I don't think Naughty Dog understood was I didn't want a sequel to The Last of Us necessarily. I just wanted a sequel to Joel and Ellie's story. I don't really care about whatever message they were trying to send. I'm not even saying this game had to have a happy conclusion, only that they explored the relationship that we all cared about. I guess they kind of did, but only in a hand waving sort of way. It would have been very difficult to keep Joel alive and explore the relationship in a real and gratifying way, so they took the easy road and chose the cheapest way to get an emotional response from the audience.
I still have respect for Neil Druckmann due to the first game,but i can't like this game. This has been the worst sequel i've ever seen. Nothing worked for me.
@@EZM7 Druckman had not much influence in first game. Others reined in him. DLC was first thing where druckman was in position to pursuit his agenda freely. No one was there to reign him in with second game. In first game everyone else thought ellie to be preteen and stomped on druckman tendencies to sexualise her. In last scene where ellie talks to joel she says "my best _friend_ was to first to die". In dlc it was revealed that she was her girlfriend and druckman aged her so it would not be so, unrealistic cringe. Releasing game in fathers day was intentional.
The first being a masterpiece is because of Bruce Straley more than Druckmann. If Straley would have left before uncharted 4 I guarantee Druckmann would have ruined that as well. Tlou2 is clearly Druckmann unchained. You've been warned
I think they completely failed at making me empathise with Abby. She tortures and kills Joel while his daughter watches and begs her to stop. She shows no remorse, regret or inner conflict for doing something so inhumane. Even if Joel killed her father to save his daughter. It doesn't excuse such a barbaric act. If they made her suffer for her revenge like Ellie did, and made her show remorse and regret for killing Joel in the way that she did. I'd probably like her alot more.
The point was never to make you empathize with Abby. The point was to show you her story and make you question whether if seeking revenge is the best way to accept loss and move on. Abby did suffer after killing Joel. Her nightmares did not end. She ended up destroying her relations with her close friends. She ends up getting tortured for months by the Rattlers. She does show remorse but not in a direct way. She regrets her decision to torture Joel hence the reason she tries to redeem herself by saving Yara and lev even though she could've very well let both of them die. Even in the cutscene where she kills Joel she hesitates just for a second to deliver the final blow. The aim of showing Abby's story was to show Ellie and Abby in the same light and to question the player's willingness to kill people as Ellie.
Uhh Abby knew that Joel didn't have a kid. Ellie could've been just another member of Jackson. And she didn't torture him in front of her, just killed him.
But it's okay when Ellie seeks revenge on Abb'ys friends? Although she doesnt know if they did anything wrong? Abby at least knew what extreme things Joel had done. Ellie killed many of Abby's friends who were supposedly innocent. I think you are just emotionally too attached to Ellies charector as she was there in the first game too. Hating Abby for a somewhat justified revenge kill, but being affectionate for Ellie, who kills in cold blood to get to Abby seems like your personal problem more than a problem in the story. Although I still think a lot of people think the same way as you, and it makes perfect sense why. Abby basically murders everything the first game was and in many people eyes also what the second game was supposed to be.
When I watched your Naughty Dog Agenda video everything felt right now today I thought you would be more critical of the game but you're not. Something deep inside tells me that this is not your honest opinion. You're too much balanced in your analysis. Edit: However, I do appreciate the time and effort you put in your videos. I really love watching them keep it up friend.
Agreed. His opinion seems to be “safe” rather than critical, which was what I admired about his Naughty Dog Agenda video. The fact that he criticized ND when the criticism was %100 justified.
I heard an interesting theory. A movie critic analyzed this game as “completely denying the first game”. Most fans of first game sympathized with Joel as themselves. And Ellie was like a daughter to players. You will feel pain as much as you loved from first game. Neil might decided to make players to deny first game since he can’t make better game than first one. That being said we players execute most of hateful actions. That is very intentional. None of them are satisfied. Constantly torturing and disgust players to deny first game. The movie critic said “That might be the goal of Neil”. Neil is very talented writer. There is no way he wouldn’t expect this reactions from fans. Neil is obviously enjoying the backlash now. His tweets prove it everyday. The movie critic said “it’s just so sad there was no one left to stop Neil to proceed this story”.
@Janssen Ongaigui I was more depressed than furiois after I played TLOU2. Thanks to the critic,I finally understand it was purposely ruined first game. So I am not depressed anymore. I don’t have to be. Thanks a lot for replying
But it doesn't deny the first game... It broadens the scope of it show us that there's "my truth, your truth and the truth". I'm a fan of the first game since it launched on 2013, and I loved Part 2, even more than the first. To the people that think that Neil is this obsessed with the fans or thinking how to make them suffer perhaps they should listen to some interviews he have done. He explains a lot about the storytelling decisions. There were a lot of people working in this game, in this story. And if you end up loving, liking, or being indifferent to Abby the game have done its job. Since you are not hating her as in the beginning.
Couldn't have said it better. As far as I'm concerned there is no last of us 2. Futher proves his point when you realize that druckmann redacted the journals you could find at the hospital in part one plainly stating that the fireflies attempted a cure before with every patient dying as a result. He took it out with a "patch"
@@karlabravo8351 "If you end up loving, liking, or being indifferent to Abby the game has done its job" is an ingenuous way of patting yourself on the back for having done at least something.
Hey Robin, awkwardchair here. Been a while. Personally I loved this game and story, despite its flaws (some forced melodrama, pacing issues, etc). Its themes on grief and anger really struck a chord with me, especially given how I have lost several family members this year and found myself in Ellie’s and Abby’s shoes, similarly. Joel’s death may have come out of left field, but deaths in real life rarely do come expected, and I came to respect that decision. I also loved this game for how it promotes discussion such as this video; and although a lot of it has been toxic on all sides, I’ve been really enjoying dissecting and seeing how it resonantes with players open-minded enough to see it to its finale. I never wanted a TLOU 1.5, and I ultimately love how different and risky this story is (and I understand why that doesn’t work for others). This was a great video, and you did a great job showing how your perspective shaped your thoughts on this.
I love that a game never made feel so much, even though I had a lot of bad fellings, it was really intense. The flaws are there, but I can't see how it is a "shit story".
I loved it as well. Personally I think it’s terrible as a sequel (in how it lines up story-wise), but as it’s own story and being able to simply appreciate it for what it is, it’s a phenomenally-crafted game. I focus more on what the game is on its own, but being reminded of where it stands In relation to the first game gives me mixed feelings.
Furtalance_x I play certain games for escapism but going into TLOU I don’t expect or necessarily want that from it. I go in more for the experience and to have my thoughts and emotions provoked. I get that not everyone wants that from their games though and that’s understandable it’s just a matter of subjectivity 👍
Samuel Dantas yes. I think the fact that people get so emotional and impassioned over this game, as the writers intended, is proof that it’s not “shit writing”. People are allowed to fundamentally disagree with story decisions but that doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be able to acknowledge the intentions and manners in how the artist handles it.
As a great fictional character once said: _"I've not come for what you hoped to do. I've come for what you did"_ . I enjoy your video essay. I agreed on several points but i disagreed in others. To me, this game was very disappointing, but i respect other people like it. Respect.
I mean Neil did honour Amy's vision and gave us the best possible ending we could have hoped for. Also Elena not dying has been one of the criticisms uncharted 2 faced citing the fear Naughty Dog at the time had of killing off characters. I personally think Neil is one of if not THE best writers in the industry when it comes to quality of narrative and character interactions. He doesn't fear taking risks and let's not forget he is the one behind the first TLOU
I saw Robin’s prior video and I’m wondering what he predicted? He predicted that a story starring a previously established LGBT character would continue to feature that character? That doesn’t exactly sound like going out on a limb. Hope you can clarify what you meant.
@Týr Uncharted Drake's Fortune Writer(s) Amy Hennig Neil Druckmann & Josh Scherr. Uncharted 2: Among Thieves Writer(s) Amy Hennig Neil Druckmann & Josh Scherr. Uncharted 4: A Thief's End Writer(s) Amy Hennig Neil Druckmann & Josh Scherr. Neil didn't do it on his own.
I can't help but feel that if the flashbacks were put in order and the first half of the game were like Nier? the bond of Joel and Ellie being tested, before reaching the "end", only for Joel to die suddenly and tragically, spurring Ellie into vengeance? I can't help but feel that TLoU2 was already done better in Nier Automata. Overall the game is certainly well made, but this masquerading for being a masterpiece when its already been done better by a madman in a mask? that I don't agree with.
I think TLoU2 was like Nier in the sense that 2B was killed off by A2 in a similar way as Joel and 9S went on a revenge spree and ended up in utter insanity, similar to what Ellie experienced. My guess that the game got bashed so hard is probably because Joel has a much bigger fanbase than 2B, and lots of people paid $60 expecting a good portion of Joel, especially because that's what was hinted in the trailers. While I enjoyed the story of TLoU2 a lot and I appreciate the bold attempt in two-way story-telling, I can understand the rage of fans for being betrayed. Hopefully with a bit more time TLoU2 will be able to receive a fair judgement, and quite honestly I hope there would be more multifaceted story-telling like this, minus the trailer bait and the marketing stunt
I like the game from a gameplay perspective, but I got multiple story issues: - Death of Joel is not earned. This man is a veteran of that world, a man who went through hell for 24-25 years and knows people and clickers like no other. For him to let his guard down is unreasonable. He wasn’t even the type to save random people to begin with (in the first game, he drives down a wounded person because he’s experienced enough to know that that’s a hunter and in this game he’s going to a stranger’s place. Also, right when the outbreak happens, a guy stands next to the road with his family and asks Tommy to pull over so they can get in and Joel refuses, telling Tommy that their own safety takes priority.) And even then, saving someone is one thing, following them back to their hideout is another. The plot should’ve went with Joel taking the lead in that instant and say something a long the lines of “we’ve been patrolling this area for years, I know a hideout nearby” or “we’ve been patrolling this area for years, I know a shortcut to Jackson from here” etc. He should not immediately trust a new girl who’s suspiciously in the vicinity of Jackson, which they rarely if ever saw. He willingly gives his real name to a bunch of armed strangers, are you kidding me? Joel killed so many people, that he should be aware of his status in the world and not fail the way he did in this game. The writers failed in this regard completely. - Tommy has plot armor that doesn’t fit their own world and narrative. Don’t know how they thought that Tommy surviving would be believable, but it’s a bad decision nonetheless. - Ellie “conveniently” leaves her map in the aquarium for Abby to find her. No way Ellie and Tommy would make that mistake, a sharpshooter like Tommy, a veteran making that mistake is impossible. The map was literally by Ellie’s feet and they somehow missed it. Poor writing. - Jesse bursting through that door like a moron when he should be slowly approaching it or kicking it open whilst moving aside is another dumb choice made by the writers. - Why Abby decides to spare Dina and Ellie is another case of plot armor that doesn’t make sense. Abby, who witnessed the death of her childhood friend and “ex-boyfriend” Owen, also saw the death of Mel and Manny, decides to listen to Lev and not kill Dina and Ellie. Why? Why are the words of Lev stronger than her feelings for her childhood friend being killed? That’s not conveyed and explained very well. This scene wasn’t convincing either. - How did a severely wounded Dina (arrow wound, punctured lung) and Ellie (broken arm, severely beaten up) return with Tommy (who required neurosurgery with a bullet in the head) and a dead Jesse to Jackson in 2-3 weeks? They didn’t even have a horse or a vehicle. - Abby’s plot armor in the fight against Tommy makes no sense. First of all, Tommy is shooting at her constantly, but the moment Abby steps out on the pier, he decides to fight her instead of shoot her in the head. Horrible writing. Another point is how Yara magically pops up when she was waiting a long ways back. Suddenly Yara appears to the rescue. Unbelievable. - Ellie ends up with nothing. The game is not saying anything. What’s the point in killing everyone except for the main person you set out to kill? Imagine if John Wick didn’t kill the guy who killed his dog and just gave him a pat on the back after killing hundreds of people. How would that make sense? It wouldn’t. Also what’s the point in shocking the player and Ellie for killing a pregnant woman, when she might have killed a hundred women who might’ve been pregnant as well? - Going after Abby ironically saved Abby, but she came back even worse than before physically and mentally perhaps too since she’s all alone now. At the very least, Abby and Lev find Catalina Island, although uncertain if the Fireflies are actually there and if they are welcoming to Abby and Lev. But hey, there is a hopeful message for them that Ellie doesn’t get. I’m not convinced this was the right portrayal for Ellie either. - No mention of Marlene, who was kind of a mother to Ellie. Odd choice to say the least. - Pacing issues galore. The initial story of Ellie already suffers from pacing issues, it takes a long time to get to the end of Day 3 and when we finally do, we have to start all over again. I almost didn’t feel like playing anymore. There are too many combat moments with humans and clickers alike that could’ve been trimmed down. I also think that Ellie Day 1 ending with a screen to black, should’ve switched to Abby Day 1. That momentum would’ve been stronger until we hit the climax at Day 3. - Don’t have an issue with flashbacks per se, but they were used a bit too much and sometimes at moments where I wish the main plot could continue. I get it, had to be done, but the execution wasn’t always too great. I much rather have a story like RDR 2, where the story only goes forward and we’re not stuck with flashbacks, but the writers here jumbled the plot in a weird way and this is what came out of it. - The characters aren’t well written nor do we have the time to bond with most of them. I barely felt anything for the death of these characters. Ellie has become a very bland character as well, did not like her either. I still like the game from a gameplay perspective, I still like the first Last of Us and Left Behind as well, but the second game has too many flaws for me to call this a good game.
No Abby wasn't justified. Her dad pulled a weapon on Joel as he was rescuing Ellie. Her dad deserved what he got and it was a weak reason to make part 2 with.
Naughty Dog should have made you play as Abby FIRST so that people feel that Joel's death was justified. While also having an absolute mindfuck for the fans on launch day.
The point was to make you see that ur enemy also have a point of view... if they dont make her ur enemy first how would that message come across to the player emotinaly... seeing how many hated that part of the game i think they totaly nailed it.
Abby isn't justified at all. She tortured a man for fun infront of his daughter because he defended her against a homicidal surgeon. Literally everything abby does has less moral justification then what joel and ellie have done.
Jessie died because then he's out of the way for Ellie and Dina to play happy families and Tommy survived to take Ellie out of happy families. They could still have made it stick if they really showed how terrible a loss it was for Jessie to not be a father. It just seemed convenient that he's out of the way.
This video claims the fundamental intentions of the story are bad because it expands the backstory of a minor character from the first game, but it doesn't do anything to justify WHY that's bad. Why is it necessary for writers to only expand on characters who already play a major role? If that doctor had been specifically named in the first game would it not be a problem? It's not like the doctor didn't have an important role in the world, he was the lead surgeon for the Fireflies. That's a pretty nonsense criticism IMO.
Most of this guys criticism of showing the consequences of Joel's most important choice in the original game is utter nonsense. Stop talking about videogames and their unrealistic nature- this is a series that is based so much around being grounded in realism that they named a difficulty mode after it. Its absolutely fitting that Joel's massacre at the hospital ended up having consequences.
@@blondeboi2132 it's not unrealistic in the slightest. It's obvious a HUGE target was going to be over his head for what he did. Did people really think there would be no repercussions? Even in our life today that's never going to happen. He committed mass murder of a very well known (and connected) group and was going to reap the consequences one way or another
TLOU2 was a huge disappointment to be and to be honest, I found your critique a bit disappointing too. I wish you had more to say about the setting, story and gameplay. For example, explored the directions the game could have taken or discussed the role of the infection in this game (which I thought was massively underused). I found scavenging to be repetitive, especially since they added close to nothing new (recipes, melee weapons, etc). I enjoyed the first 5 or 6 hours of the game, but at a certain point I simply became bored. The plot was too simple, and there were few interactions between the main characters (Ellie's side) to make up for the repetitive gameplay. I agree the game did shine in the flashbacks and in the cutscenes between Ellie and Dina, but those were few and far between. Also, I wasn't a fan of the three day story and would have preferred a longer time span to show more locations - especially in the first half of the game. In the end, I felt indifference to both Ellie and Abby, and to me that is an indication that the game failed to achieve its goal. Cheers
@@akraman7274 Just because he chose to focus on the story doesn't mean that, as a viewer, I can't feel disappointed by the lack of gameplay analysis. It was meant as constructive feedback.
"What's your name?" "I'm glad you asked, stranger! My name is Joel Miller, I live at Jackson Camp, owned by brother Tommy and Maria Miller. He was an ex-Firefly and assisted me in my journey to smuggle Ellie Williams, the only known immune human in existence, cross-country from Boston QZ to St. Mary's Hospital in Salt Lake City, where I brutally massacred every Firefly for risking a cure with her guaranteed death. I am almost certain I didn't get all of them, and they're probably out for blood for murdering their leader, Marlene in cold blood. Please, take all my means of self defense, lock the doors, and outnumber us. That's just basic human decency!" The lesson I learned from Part II? Use aliases, and the Cycle of Violence will literally cease to exist!
@@kylepollack3029 Why make videogame if you're not supposed to enjoy it? It's not impossible to make something enjoyable while also telling a dark story that makes the player feel sadness and despair.
I have several issues with this game, but the biggest one is Abby. I hate her with a burning passion. Why? Because she killed a character I feel a deep connection with. That’s it. The way we’re forced to play as her for so much of the game doesn’t help matters. I understand what Naughty Dog was going for, I really do, but it really didn’t work for me. During her sections, I was counting the minutes. I wanted to get back to Ellie because that was the only thing I cared about. And don’t get me started on the part where you have to fight Ellie... That was torture. I was terrified that I was gonna kill her. Thankfully she survived. I hated every single second of Abby’s parts of the game. Ellie’s parts however were amazing, especially the flashbacks. The gameplay is incredibly fun and satisfying. In that area, it’s a masterpiece. Story-wise however...it has problems. I love half of the game and I hate the other half. I can’t help but feel dissapointed. Brilliant video as usual Robin. You never fail to impress me with your words.
I do wish more people would acknowledge or talk about how Naughty Dog completely altered & did a U Turn on Tommy's character in his last scene in the game. He was such a great character in both games, I still love him, even though they ruined him with that last scene of his at the farm. He was initially reluctant to go after Joel's killers in the beginning of the game, he eventually went after them, but left Ellie behind, to protect her. He knew she would still go after them, even after leaving her behind, but he couldn't in good conscience take her along on this suicide mission. At the theatre, when they're planning their route back to Jackson, after killing 7 of the 8, he indicates to Ellie they got revenge on most of them & have to make peace with not getting Abby. So why after all that, after being the voice of reason, would he become obsessed with killing Abby & guilt Ellie into going after her, just a few months later. That ruined his character & made him seem like a dick out of nowhere. That seems to be done just to add drama to the scene & have someone else look like the villain over Ellie going after Abby, again. It made no sense, was just a forced narrative. If they wanted Tommy to deliver the news of Abby's whereabouts to Ellie, they could have had him go about it in a better way, like him leaving the decision up to Ellie, not guilting her into it. It seems ND just wanted to force narratives & drama in this scene, villainised yet another character from "Team Ellie" that we came to love.
Dude tommy was a bastard piece of shit who assoulted and killed innocent people with Joel in order to survive. After coming back from Seattle he lost everithing, his brother, his leg, his eye, and even maria the one person Who probably made him a better human. During the following months the rage for having lost everithing grew inside him and he slowly became more like his past himself, so he went back to Ellie, his only way to accomplish those desires. Tommy's character is written in an incredibly human way, people change dude they never stay the same during the course of their life
People forgetting it was Ellie's idea to go after Abby. Tommy got shot at the back of the head, lost an eye and can't walk. Jesse died and he also lost his wife cause they went on the revenge mission. How would you react if you saw Ellie living happily in a farm house and didn't want her revenge anymore. Maybe she should have listened to Tommy in the first place and he'd still have two eyes, a wife and can walk. That's why he got angry. In fact it would be weird if he just said "ok that's cool" hugs Ellie and walks away. That really how ppl want it to be? Sorry but life ain't like that.
@@ingamedetails My issue is they went down the extremely cliche route of turning him into the grumpy old uncle who lost everything & now wants someone to go get revenge for him. They didn't have to villainise him. Giving him a great character arc over the 2 games, only to undo it all in the end. They could have had him come to Ellie with the info saying " Hey Ellie, I know I promised you I'd find her, & I have, but it's your choice what you want to do from here on out". This would have been very believable & kept Tommy's character consistent, didn't need to add the drama to it & everything doesn't have to be doom & gloom. Ellie still had the itch for revenge deep down before Tommy got to the farm, she would have gone after Abby going by Tommy's info without him having to guilt her into it.
The linear story telling is fine. However, the atmosphere around these post game discussions doesn't allow the free interpretation of the first one. We should be able to hate and love the characters we want and to agree or disagree with them (and even the writer if we want). Revenge does different things for different people. The game should actually be given a shot before critique of course.
I think, after game 2, everybody IS STILL free to like or hate anyone, freely. I personaly know people that ended up hating ellie, people that ended up hating tommy, people that still didn't liked or justified Joel's action. The game isn't saying how you should fell about anything, it's presenting a complex journey of people all over in a cohesive manner. I ended up liking every single character of this game, for different reasons.
"The game should actually be given a shot before critique of course." Couldn't have said it better unlike some morons who equate to watching let's plays without playing it equals to experiencing it lol
Good intentions, bad execution........ we 10/10 should’ve played Abby first and learn her story and have little moments with Ellie.....once she kills joel, no matter how much i tried to sympathize with her, I just couldn’t. This game is ok but nowhere near the 10/10 people are raving about.
lovethepandainyou at the same time having to play Abby smack in the middle way also painful. I just wanted to finish playing Abby as quickly as I could so I could get back to Ellie’s story and no matter how much the game tries to shoehorn us into liking Abby, I just could never give 2 shits about her character
@@Ffinha The dust seems to have settled now and the discussions I've been seen are more balanced💭🤔. During this fiasco I did *not* see this nuance😂. The blind rage trashing and "You didn't get the game if you still..." comments were just igh😑🤦🏾♂️.
Ellie killed Abbys friend who was pregnant, it doesnt matter if it was by "accident", why would Abby be worried about Dina being pregnant when Ellie did the same to her?
Respectfully I have to disagree about Joel's involvement in the story - the whole plot revolves around HIM and HIS actions and how they impacted Ellie, and while it is not direct, the main conflict of the game is about Ellie letting go of Joel and learning to forgive - to forgive Joel for his actions, and through that personal growth, to become able to forgive Abby for hers
22:23 I don't think they're entirely unreasonable. Naughty Dog has in multiple instances had characters like Nate try to save or at least not kill the main villain after they say what amounts to "strike me down and you'll become like me" in games where you are given no choice but to kill hundreds of people. It rings hollow.
That's just not the tonal universe that Uncharted has ever presented to us. It's not only that nameless bad guys get mown down with no weight to it, Nate can do and survive impossible things that should kill any human, encounters supernatural creatures, swear words above the level of "shit" don't exist, and all the characters' reactions to dangerous situations are more flippant than anyone in real life would be. None of those things are bad on their own because that's the style the series has consistently cultivated
TLOU never really had the "ludonarrative dissonance" problem anyway. You kill to survive in that world and every enemy Joel and Ellie came across in their journey were fucked up and deserved it in one way or another. Joel himself is presented as a flawed character not a righteous one so there was no hypocrisy there no matter how you look at it. That's why I disagree with Robin that Part II was made in response to that criticism Uncharted games get. Part II simply explores the direct consequences of Joel's actions from the first game and its effects on both Ellie and Abby but it doesn't really paint him as a bad guy or a good guy necessarily, and that aspect doesn't dictate how you die in the world of TLOU anyway. Joel is an amazing character in Part II because, as we see in the flashbacks, he became an amazing dad for teenager Ellie no matter how she treated him over the years. And beyond that he seemed like a more responsible person helping the community in Jackson alongside Tommy like going on patrols and whatnot. Compared to the hardened smuggler who didn't care about anyone but himself at the start of the first game, he was finally more at peace with himself in Part II which is exactly what everbody hoped the type of effect Ellie would have on him. The character arc of Joel continuing from the first game in Part II is one of many reasons why I loved this game so much.
They didn’t want to give anything away, other wise Druckmann might as well have just told us the entire plot. I’m fine with them lying if it means concealing the story of the game
No one ever talks about how there is a possibility that the Fireflies could have killed Elli and failed at making a cure. In my mind that may be enough to deny them the right to Kill her
While I disagree with some of your views on the game, I respect your approach and not just blind fanboyism I've seen. Unfortunately for Naughty Dog, after this and Uncharted 4 I'm just not interested in anything they put out in future. Great video though
The problem is that there is not an interesting story behind any of these decisions. We have name brand notoriety = $CASH$ when it comes to business, and on the other hand we have wannabe auteur genius who, rather than actually understanding story telling and how to make it work, decided that his story would be subversive and therefore deep, impactful, and would let his abilities shine; the definition of pretentious. It is a flimsy house of cards. The base is big business ka-ching$ and Druckmann's completely flawed character and understanding, then the next layer is a story completely hung on this "genius, incredible, subversive" idea that a nobody NPC, that meant nothing to the characters or point of the first game's narrative, having a daughter who now wants revenge. This is a completely juvenile approach that I would expect an 8 year old to imagine up playing with his action figures. Anything past these points is also flawed and the whole thing collapses.
I’m hella late to this party but like if Lev wasn’t there she totally would have killed Dina... and people say she was a changed and redeemed person... ok
@@cocob0l0 yeah exactly.... i don't understand how people get that from that??? i think the whole point of the story is that they're all just shitty cause it's a shitty world? idk lol
@@natashanolan2797 The thing is, the people who love this game pretty much only fault Joel and view HIM as the bad guy, and hell even Ellie too and that Abby is this pure innocent angel. It’s ridiculous
Literally feel nothing for Abby or any of the new characters. Ultimately they failed to effectively put more care into developing characters to rationalize their behavior and decisions. Naughty Dog spent an entire game building up Ellie and Joel's relationship. Starting out as strangers leaving so much room to see this relationship dynamically develop and flourish. If you compare that with Abby's relationship with her father and friendships with other characters like Mel. Told through comparatively brief and sporadic snippets that don't hold a candle to the originals methodical character development
I think it is not neccesary for us to like,hate or relate with abby at all.They are showing her side of the story and how joel fucked up her world.We can always interpret the game based on how we want it to be instead of what it is.
@@kishansharma5119 It's a whole nother story when the writers are desperately trying to demonize Joel and Ellie and make you despise them. Then have you like Abby for some reason. You can literally feel it in the game as you progress.
With information given about the fireflies and the vaccine, I think it's interesting that we can actually debate Joel's decision as not purely immoral or selfish. The recording found told how this doctor failed in many experiments. While the test subjects were not immune, the fact that the doctor didn't know where to go makes it all more possible that Ellie's sacrifice would've been for nothing. In TLOU II, Marlene also questions this doctor's ethics in how he won't give Ellie a choice, and when switching Ellie's place with Abby's, the doctor wouldn't do the same, even following the logic he follows. I thought TLOU II was a 6/10, and this doesn't stem from "it's because Joel died" or "we didn't like Abby." Naughtydog accomplished in making me understand for Joel's motives to save Ellie, and instead of the clearly, or so we think is clear, right decision to make a potential vaccine, even with Joels hardened skin and survivor complex. They didn't do the same for me with making us understand or forgive Abby. Trying something new doesn't always mean it works. They didn't tell it well enough for me, and the fact that some people have to try very hard to see Neil's intent is what tells me Neil and his writers couldn't do this. I am hopeful for TLOU III, because if they succeeded once, I'm sure they can do it again.
Exactly, I respect what they were going for, but they failed to achieve it. I don't hate abbey, I just don't care about her. I wish this wasn't the case, I mean the game is beautiful.
I’d agree with 6/10, it’s not bad but nowhere near the first. I could never care about Abby despite the long winded story explaining that she has basically suffered what Ellie had.
They tried to make you feel for Abby yet they show her as an evil and unmerciful character several times with her killing Joel with a begging person behind her. Even after playing as her to make you connect she is ready to murder a pregnant woman. It doesn’t work out well and she doesn’t seem human or relatable. They can’t try to replace the characters that made the franchise for new and unlikable ones.
If you like doing 3 playthroughs to get the actual message and constantly treading into edgy territory, yeah. Like I love NieR, but it is not better executed as a whole.
@@littlekitsune1 not gonna lie, I find the third playthrough hilarious. Grab the Phoenix Lance and smash every single boss on your way. Popola doesn't even have time to mourn her sister's death.
I just don't feel like this game was written by a someone who has the chops to deliver a dark philosophical reflection of the violence and revenge themes, the way Neil wanted it to be. He just pulls out obvious scenarios, thinking that in order to understand the antagonist, you have to mirror it's circumstances with the main character, like the first draft of a story... besides the manipulative killing of dogs and babies, like..did you know that this character also has a pregnant friend, a beloved father or father-figure that dies, a love triangle with that pregnant friend...you see, she's going through the same struggles, but I'll just jumble them around, so it wouldn't seem obvious.
I would've loved the game if they made us feel Ellie's motivation to kill Abby her "I'm gonna kill every last one of them" kind of rampage but at times it seemed like Ellie was forced to do this as if she is questioning herself and her actions. It really would've demonstrated that Ellie truly lost herself and then regained humanity at the end but they didn't approach it the way they should have.
Exactly. When I played the two fights between Ellie and Abby, I never felt motivated to killing any of them. I just pressed square because it was the only way to continue the story. The moments that the game build so much up to became a complete let down and you wished Abby and Ellie could just make peace instead, as they both knew revenge killing only makes things worse. I genually expected the two charectors to talk with each other in their last encounter by the boats, but instead I'm left with a bad taste in my mouth as neither of the protagonists found real peace or some form of empathy for each other. There was not one kill in the game where you felt satisfied. Nobody really deserved to get killed, which was one of the themes of the game, yet it's the only thing you really do throughout the entire story. The player needs to be motivated and engaged in what ever the game forces them to do, or it should leave decisions to the player instead. This idea of forcing you to kill just to shame you for it while being aware it's wrong is just awful game design and storytelling.
@@frederikandersen8402 lol exactly! Everyone knows killing is wrong but we play games to escape not to waste our money and time on being shamed... what the actual fuck.lol if anything they should feel shame for stealing our money and time.lol
@@frederikandersen8402 The fact that the player is hesitant during those moments is the entire point, you've seen both sides of the story so you no longer have the same motivation that Ellie does. The idea that the game hypocritically "shames" you is completely inane, it's difficult to express how fucking dumb of a take that is.
@@telltellyn my point is: the game tells you killing someone is wrong. Then it forces you to kill that person (instead of making it an option). Then the game revolves around how dumb it was to kill said person. In an RPG with multi options it makes sense to punish the player is they pick the wrong dialogue option, but in TLOU 2 you can't immerse yourself into the charectors motivation because you know it's essentially the "wrong dialoge option" you are choosing all the time forcefully. I get that the theme is that revenge is pointless. But that doesn't mean I think it makes for a good game. Maybe it could, but it wasn't executed well. Maybe if you only realised in the end that the choices were bad instead of making it the main theme throughout the game it would work better. The same way TLOU 1 only makes you realize that Joel might be the bad guy in the end of the game instead of showing you in the beginning. You might think my opinion is "fucking dumb" but you can at least present your own opinion on the game instead of talking shit like a 9 year old fanboy. Bruh
@@frederikandersen8402 The game was about trauma and obsession, not “killing people is bad”. Violence is necessary in the world of TLOU, every single person has to use violence to get from A to B. The game doesn’t preach against that necessity, it’s just the reality of that world. What the game explored was a character suffering from trauma and becoming obsessed with thinking vengeance was the only way to heal. Her rage broke down until it was closer to an addiction than anything. I fundamentally disagree with the idea that if a game doesn’t give you a choice that you MUST agree with the character’s decisions. I think that limits the entire medium like no other medium is limited. There were a bunch of times in the game I felt differently to Ellie in a situation (like people may have felt with Joel at the end of TLOU), but for me that only added tension, a similar experience to watching Breaking Bad. If you watched that show, did you ever feel frustrated with Walter or Jessie’s decisions? What about ASOIAF, where the major theme is anti-war, and yet every character partakes in acts of war? Watching a character you love do something you disagree with is a very common part of fiction, it’s how an audience is challenged to think rather than just passively cheer on a hero. I can’t help but feel like gamers responded so badly to it because they’re so accustomed to nothing but power fantasies. I’ve heard a lot of people say they wished Ellie killed Abby. Meanwhile I’ve heard a lot of other people describe how painful it was watching them fight because they DIDN’T want Ellie to kill Abby. Clearly the game was not just black and white with how it portrayed its characters. There’s nothing wrong with saying it didn’t work for you, that’s completely subjective. What I find dumb is calling it “awful game design and storytelling”. There is nothing inherently bad about challenging the audience to question and disagree with the protagonist. That is at the core of many of the greatest works out there. As someone studying design, I just hate people acting like video games aren’t allowed to do it.
A big problem for me was the timeline. I feel like if the events, including the flashbacks were presented in chronological order, with you switching in between Abby and Ellie every Seattle day would have worked better. It felt to me like the game was trying to shame me for wanting revenge against Abby for killing Joel and Ellie killing Abby's friends by humanizing Abby's group later in the game. This didn't work for me though, trying to make me fell bad for killing someone that I was suppose to dislike hours later when Im focusing on something else just doesn't work. If the game had been in order, I would have felt real conflict of interest in the moment, understanding Abby's group's intentions and getting to know them better before I kill many of them, not long after.
That's most people basically with a negative or split opinion. The pacing and the order of events. This is objectively identifiable as bad or poorly executed. But then you have people of the other spectrum that cannot compute this, add a slight antipathy for Joel or his "decision" and there you go, the situation at hand....
@@brodude7194 How is it objective whether or not it would have been better chronologically or with the time skip in the middle? I think I would have liked it less had they been side by side, and the impact of suddenly finding yourself in the shoes of a character you hate and grow to appreciate would have been diminished.
Bryce Hampton I think it makes perfect sense. Ellie doesn't see Abby and her friends as anything but murderes, and neither do you in the begging of the game, as you have only seen Ellie's side of things. As Robin mentioned, you, as a player, are used to killing hundrets of enemies, who are almost always flat, and you aren't supposed to feel guilt for them. But later exposing Abby and her friends' backstory and relationships makes you (or is supposed to make you) realise that there are always two sides of the story, and every person you kill has their own motives and reasons for wanting to hurt/kill you. I think it's a lame theme to explore, since it almost goes against what the first game did, where you didn't see your enemies as more than enemies (except Marlene). In Part 2 this is all it's about. The ironic thing is how Abby is supposed to be the one understanding this principle, as she also ends up killing lots of her WLF friends just to save ONE kid. The only reason the story is like that is to put focus on Abby developing as a charectors as she realizes that Scars are more than just enemies. Abby does the same thing as Joel did, killing everything around her because of her affection for a child. The only difference is that Abbys reasons for being this affectionate for Liv is almost non-existent, where as Joel has such an understandable reason for saving Ellie. It's ironic and plain unrealistic.
It’s the whole reason the story is later out that way, you are supposed to realise that neither woman is morally right here: both have suffered the same tragedies and are willing to do whatever it takes for revenge. I believe the game tunnelled too hard into making us like Abby as much as Ellie when I just didn’t really care about her character and just wanted her story to be over
I hate admitting when I’m wrong but I ended up loving TLOU2 by the end. I saw the leaks before and was as mad as everyone else but playing through it changed my mind.
Tlou part 2 sucked and didn’t had the same impact as the first one they could’ve made the series an anthology going forward with a new cast and characters
Ellie’s rejection of Joel was reaching in my opinion. That she would prize the abstract notion of her life “meaning something” by being a possible cure over the actual fatherly love of Joel makes her pretty cold and soulless. I never misunderstood what Naughty Dog was trying to do. I just think it was executed poorly. If the handling of this game and it’s marketing are any indication of the future of Naughty Dog, they will never again be as great as they once were. There are game developers who know how to subvert expectations and still give their customers a wholly satisfying experience, and ultimately, Naughty Dog will lose customers to developers that don’t bite the hand that feeds them. Naughty Dog is perfectly free to make the game they want, but they will inevitably reap the fruits of those decisions. It’s a shame that Druckmann picked such a mediocre story as the hill Naughty Dog wants to die on.
@@jerrodshack7610sales don’t tell the whole story. Sales only prove how much people love the franchise; it isn’t evidence that the game itself is good. It’s been three years since you made this comment. How do you think Naughty Dog is doing? Are they popular as they once were? I heard they were laying people off.
Abby want's to kill pregnent woman despite knowing what she is about to do - someone else stops her. Ellie kills pregnent woman and when she finds out she loses her mind and is grossed out from what horrible act she has done. Abby kills wothout mercy or second thought - killing people is way easier for her than for Ellie. Ellie kills because she has to cut her loose ends and kills are having heavy impact on her. Ellie has to kill dogs in combat, once she is in danger. Abby is and does evil without big enough justification or remorse. Ellie does awful things and carries the wheight of her crimes. That's why she broke at the end and could not kill Abby.
Well I put myself in Abby’s shoes when I played it. Abby didn’t know Ellie didn’t know Mel was pregnant she thought that Ellie killed her in cold blood. So it made sense to me that she would be so ready to kill Dina even though she knew she was pregnant.
Not evil with no justification, just extremely little. She was only going to kill Dina because she felt guilty about what she did to Mel and Owen before they died, and how she never got to make true amends, the same reason Ellie went on the whole quest to begin with, it was just a micro moment of that because Abby knew she was in the wrong and almost let her emotions get the better of her, something she's done her entire life and it led to all of her friends dying.
Abby thought Ellie killed Mel knowing she's pregnant so she was gonna do the same to Dina, and the main purpose of the game, I think, is to showcase how nobody in this world is right or wrong, it's about survival.
Abby wants to kill a pregnant woman because Ellie KILLED a pregnant woman. And she is doing a mistake. The same mistake she did when she killed Joel. Blind revenge, the same blind revenge that bring Ellie to kill Nora, Mel and Owen. It's so obvious. Ellie didn't manage that situation and she is totally responsable of Mel's death. She has remorse because obviously she is not a monster, but a shape of grey like all the others characters. Abby doesn't have a single motivation to feel remorse for what she did to Joel. Joel is a MONSTER to her.
my experience when i play this game is like i was about to marry my girlfriend that i've known for a long time but then suddenly i was force to marry a different person
And then someone would come along and start talking sh*t about your girlfriend, while at the same time praising this new person. This new person is just amazing. Oh and also, this new person is a sadistic psychopath, and also trans. Also, if you don't like her you're a bigot.
While I love both Drakengard and NieR, they are a bit too tryhard with it and go into edgy territory. Also Drakengard 1 just has the protagonists literally be sociopaths, so I'm not sure about that moral there. NieR Gestalt is closer but doesn't actually bother with the message unless you're willing to do multiple playthroughs.
This video basically summarizes why naughty dog isn't getting my money. I wonder if everyone realizes that if they ever make a lou3 its gonna be even worse because you are gonna be playing as abby right?
I just gotta poke a hole in one of your things that you say, when you say "if every person you killed's family came after you you'd have everyone after you" but those hunters you kill don't know who you are you just came across them, but the at the hospital they know who you are and what you did.
Also it did happen in the first game as well, with David's group. This whole sequel felt like an expansion of that concept. Owen also brought up in his conversation with Abby on the boat that most people seem to have given up on the whole revenge thing because of how common killing and loss is. He mocked her asking if he should go find the ones who killed his parents as well. I think the main difference with Abby is she had detailed info on who did it compared to other people's situations.
@@GrigRP Do you base your " changed his race" on that misleading screenshot that looks edited that's been circulating? Coz last time I played the first game, he wasn't black or Hispanic, but white. Look for videos, play it yourself. Was he a random character? In the context of the first game, it was obvious he was the main doctor in that room, the one performing the surgery. That they decided to expand his role in the second game is something else.
I wonder why people are okay with the whole trailer situation when it's movies but games are a no go? I mean hulk in the infinity war trailer, Thor in the endgame trailer. People are weirdly forgetting to be consistent with their opinions and what and how they are okay with something.
Yeah. That's honestly weird. But it still isn't right, don't do it in movies or games please. Just be honest about what you're going for, omitting information is fine, misleading isn't. Hope ND understands that now.
@@yasharora1228 see I can disagree with you on this. But I think that you are correct that if we want it to be done in one form of media then we need to be consistent about it. People cheer and love the fat Thor thing in endgame, and im sure there's a pretty big overlap between the fans of that with gaming, but now those same people raise their pitchforks. It baffles me, now I am of the opinion that the element of surprise is worth the deception of the lead up. But I see your point as well and I could be okay with either honestly, I'd just avoid the trailers and hype if people shift to the position of yours. Hey look a civil manner to disagree with someone? People please take notes!
@@eiriyuki19 Yeah. You're right that they need to be consistent. Now that I think about you mentioning Thor in Endgame, makes sense. I get what you mean, and no, I don't think I even said that for myself above. I also, at the end of the day, don't really care about what happened in the trailers. And I completely disagree with people who think that it was a cash grabbing move, because it really wasn't. They would've just kept Joel in the whole game, and made a story around that if it was about money. ND is getting a lot of hate for nothing. I'm really heartbroken over the hate messages that they're getting honestly. Just even the idea annoys me a lot. It's okay to not like something over any reason, be it whatever, but what's saddening is that people continuously forget their manners, that is even if they have some. This whole thing has just turned into a huge mess, and people are being little kids about it.
I think this is the best formed analysis of people who didnt like the game. That ultimately the road ND will be bringing us down in their games will be their own, and independent of the playerbases expectations. To some this is perfectly fine, to others this is deal breaking. It's a bold choice, and one in which one can only assume they are aware the implications. For that single reason I respect it even more...and to me it has added, not detracted from the value of the messages they teach us.
@@lockekappa500 I'm quite happy that they're going to be doing whatever they want now because it means we'll get to see a lot more unique stories from them. I just hope that their next game is a new IP in a genre or setting they haven't tackled before so we can get some kick ass gameplay scenarios from them.
Hey everyone, I hope you enjoyed my analysis of The Last of Us Part II. Now it's up to you, I'd love to hear what you thought about the game. If you enjoy my content, consider supporting me at www.Patreon.com/RobinGaming for early access to scripts and videos. Thanks a lot for watching!
I LOVE YOU
I was very excited for this
Let’s do this...
Even though i haven't started watching the analysis, im for sure your points will be right.
Another thing to note is you are required to only kill three people in the firefly hospital, Ethan, the surgeon, and Marlene. Also you could argue what Joel did was self defense because the surgeon held a knife up to him.
I'm sure the comment section here is going to be a happy, peaceful place full of balanced conversation and dialogue
There is usually pretty good convos in his comment section. He’s such a peaceful dude
I think we can all agree that the golf mechanics in this game are top notch
I think most of Robin's followers are capable of doing so
It actually is , for now lol
Yeah, exactly like Twitter.
...yeah
Robin I just wanna say that we really appreciate your work and the time you put in making videos like these.
@Jordan Ghill no he was correct
@Amr ....Yeah ...Jordan the guy who could start an argument in an empty room.
My biggest issue with the game is why Lev never used any airbending skills on Ellie.
Lol
😂
He would've probably done that, if the game was written by Kojima lol
HAHAHAHA
Another thing about Joel is how you explore his house after his death. In the first game we never really learned about Joel's passions and activities he did outside of the smuggling stuff, so walking through his house and seeing all of those sculptures he made, and the songs he wrote really humanized him which made his death hurt a lot more.
Shame we only get to see him for 5% of the whole game.
This is Joel's story . That's why you start playing as him . This Joel's story and the consequences of his actions on others
You get to explore his house in the first game and see his guitar there as well.
Something else I noticed was that he had a book called "space for beginners" or something along those lines, and he basically started to read space related things so that he can relate and have conversations with Ellie. He really loved her man, it sucks he had to go out this way😪
dylan ameziane
I mean, ya, Joel’s important to the story, but he’s really more of a plot device in Part 2 than he is an actual character. Not saying that’s inherently bad, but saying that this is “Joel’s story” seems a little ridiculous to me. It’s Ellie and Abby’s story, and Joel is just something that both of them are dealing with throughout the game.
Neil was gonna kill off Elena 🥺🥺
She has so much more to offer than just dying, I’m glad that got scrapped
waaat. I'm sorry that's just ridiculous. Ik they went for a more serious tone in 4, but you can't just have a complete departure from what the series is about. Uncharted at the end of the day is based on pulp adventure shows, it's not some gritty thriller....smh.
Neil: destroyer od characters
Neil is a good idea guy, but he really needs someone to rein him back. He's not someone who should ever have full creative control.
@@loonar7960 Agreed. It would be awful if there was any room for creative freedom in the industry of storytelling, that would absolutely suck.
Neil is just a negative person is all, he likes adding seriousness into things to give it depth
Ellie: she's pregnant
Abby: Good
Not even Kratos could get away with a statement like that.
Aside from the fact that Kratos has done worse...that's only if you ignore all the context around it. Ellie essentially murdered almost everyone that Abby loved in that same night.
@@majorevangelism Including Mel who was pregnant. Ellie didn't know that, but Abby wasn't aware of that.
Ellie: She's pregnant...
Abby: Double kill...
@@majorevangelism Kratos has doneMUCH worse. I'm saying not even he could express satisfaction at prospect of murdering a pregnant woman and remain a sympathetic character.
Y’all act like she said good because she loves the concept of killing a pregnant woman. She said good because her pregnant friend was just murdered by Ellie and in the heat of the moment, she wanted to do the same to thing to a pregnant friend of Ellie. When lev stops her you can see Abby realizes she’s wrong. It’s not that complicated
Abby: Who are you?
Joel: My name is Nathan and this is my brother Sam.
*END CREDITS*
😂😂😂 wow that’s actually facts
@@ukculture9240 lol gotta be careful what u say. Watch, there's gonna be people who won't understand it's a joke lol 🤣
Lol good stuff
Hanif Majed Khan Yhhh I heard sjw Americans can be extremely emotional but we just laugh at sjws over in the uk 😂😂😂😂
@@ukculture9240 lollllll true dat. Don't know about American Sjws. I'm also in the UK lol.
Ellie didn't know that she was pregnant. She learned that only after she killed her. Abby, on the other hand, learned that Dina was pregnant while attempting to kill her.
Because she thought Ellie killed her pregnant friend on purpose. 1+1
@@theanimerapper6351 "friend" idk man i wouldnt sleep with my friend's partner.
@@theanimerapper6351 doesn't matter, she was still willing to make the choice if it wasn't for lev
@@L4anK. According to Abby, Ellie had murdered Mel knowing she was pregnant. She also killed Owen, Nora, and so many others.
On the flip side, I would say that Abby killing Jessie was a reflex action/self-defence. Jessie and Ellie both barged in through, at once with their guns drawn. It was a split-second decision that would most likely have resulted in her death had she not fired first.
Yeah, Robin was saying that "Abby's activities are in complete contrast to those of Ellie, which I will say is often mirrored to you as a player in overly transparent ways" (31:00), then he simplified the moments he listed in very transparent ways. Ellie doesn't just stab dogs for fun. She does it in self-defense. The dog in the Aquarium literally attacked her first. Ellie does know mercy. She literally did it at the end of the game. Ellie didn't even know Mel was pregnant when she killed her, which again was in self-defense, and he did not go over how the realization was so traumatic she agreed to go home. As Robin mentioned, the aim is to show perspective, not that there are objectively right or wrong characters, so obviously these scenes apply to Ellie as well.
Abby and Ellie are not completely contrasting characters. They are very similar. The game just shows them at different stages of the same cycle. Abby was on a redemption arc, whereas Ellie was on the revenge arc. Abby started to come to terms with how shitty a person she became in getting her revenge, whereas Ellie ultimately decided to end it before it took over her humanity. Abby learned this the second time, when she spared Dina. Abby in the beginning of the game would have done it. Ellie stopped it the first time, so she avoided the same downfall as Abby when and after she killed Joel.
Unfortunately, when a story does things that snap you out of it, it has already failed to do its job.
The thing about aggravation is, once it settles in, you find every excuse in the book to hate that thing.
And that signals a deeper, more fundamental problem with TLOU2, its over-indulgence of what it seeks to do or say about the medium,
and sacrificing the things we loved about the story to achieve that end.
I personally had zero issues with Joel dying, playing as Abby, or the ending.
My bigger issue is that the themes that Naughty Dog wanted to play with in PART 2 run counter to the idea of *_'satisfaction',_* which is something that is inherent to this medium.
Naughty Dog could have injected more scenes like the one where Ellie demonstrates wit, intelligence, charm, and strategy to turn the tables against the Rattlers who ensnared her.
The operative question is, _why _*_weren't_*_ there more scenes like that during her turn in Seattle?_
Because they don't want anything on Ellie's side of the story to be satisfying, or it would risk the audience enjoying her quest for revenge, which runs counter to their message.
Contrast that with Abby, who has the better set pieces, more character development, and much more intrinsic exploration of the protagonist than on Ellie's side.
You mentioned Dina having little development. This is precisely why. You're not supposed to "enjoy" Ellie's side of the story.
This is the emotional manipulation that is heavy-handed, and telegraphed way too early.
Naughty Dog couldn't decide whether they wanted you to be on Ellie's side at the beginning or not, because there's evidence to suggest either is true.
Some will say Joel's death is supposed to send us on a righteous path of retribution against Abby, but if that were the intention, then why have Dina ask Ellie if Joel ever did anything to deserve retribution from others? Why have Dina question about Abby's agenda for leaving Ellie and Tommy alive? There's only one answer there, and it is because Druckmann wanted us to question Ellie's decisions. That puts us immediately at odds with a character we grew to love so much. Again, it's purposefully taking the satisfaction away from you.
Now, fundamentally, the question being asked of the audience of the gaming industry is:
Do you believe art that leaves you angry and dissatisfied fundamentally/generally a failure?
I would argue, yes.
Because countless movies and TV shows have left me sad and broken and confused,
but all the greats have done it and left me with a sense of satisfaction.
Unfortunately, sapping the satisfaction away and telegraphing the moral of the story
also means you're then watching this slow car crash that you know deep down will not be kind to all involved,
and not including any twist or turns good enough to change or transcend the narrative into something greater, but rather, just leaves it as a mimic of familiar stories that have done it better.
I don't fault ND for doing something radical, because love it, or hate it, that's what this game is.
But it was, in SkillUp's words, an experiment. One that unfortunately did not succeed (IMO ofc).
This is top comment worthy
Well articulated my guy.
You definitely hit the nail on the head they seemingly purposely made Abby's campaign more set piece heavy with Gears/Resident Evil pacing to make it more fun. We were not supposed to be having fun as Ellie and that definitely hurts. Because I was not invested in Abby's story and their attempts at redeeming her were in vain.
U deserve way more likes sir
So why do people like Star Wars
@14:57 - sorry but have to counter that article....Joel's actions, while some may deem monstrous are not given the context of the post apocalyptic world where survival have turned most to do actions that in pre outbreak day would be seen as extreme. You understand the position he was in:
1) the Surgeon wanted to kill him to prevent him from taking Ellie, that was the surgeons choice he could have let Joel take Ellie and then try to track her down later with the remaining fireflies
2) Fireflies didn't consult with Joel or Ellie before deciding to sacrifice Ellie's life to maybe create a vaccine - and who knows how a vaccine would have corrupted the fireflies politically being a super power by weaponising the cure, would they give it to the scars or wlf? No right.
3) Fireflies held Joel at gun point before giving him a chance to see/speak with Ellie - given that situation Joel kicked into fight and flight mode because of how aggressively the Fireflies handled the situation and how they were essentially making him go through losing a daughter yet again with no say in the matter, he had grown to care for Ellie like a surrogate father figure - and anyone that has a child would do this 10 times out of 10.
4) this led to him to do whatever he had to do to save Ellie before time ran out as she was prepped for surgery, he was not able to save Sarah 20 years ago but he was resolute to save Ellie at all costs and redeeming himself, you can question his methods but that is our reality vs his reality i.e Post outbreak day and the 2 are not the same so it is not that easy. Every action he took felt human with no ambiguity.
Yeah, I've conveyed these same exact points to my friend as well, who viewed Joel as the bad guy after playing TLOU2. Joel & the fireflies both have done some right & wrong in how the hospital scene played out. Neither can outright be called bad or good, but I definitely see Joel more in the right as he is purely retaliating to them not giving Ellie a choice over her life. If Naughty Dog wanted to make Joel 100% the bad guy in the first game, they would have had the fireflies consult them with the outcome & Ellie telling Joel she wants to go through with it, and then if he still killed all of them & took her out of there, he'd surely be bad. But it was done perfectly as we got it. However, I found the second game backtracking on this & showing Joel as the clear bad guy with Abby, the fireflies & her Dad as the good guys, I did not like or agree with that.
I agree 100%. As a father I would happily doom humanity if it meant I get to save my daughter.. blood or not she is Joel's baby girl, just like Sarah was. Joel was guilty of being a loving father that's all.
Totally agree.
The most human thing to do in that situation is too save Ellie 100%, but still there lies the underlying fact that he may be taking away the chance of a cure, even if it was weaponized or used as an advantage (which seems unlikely). Joel isn't a hero, he's more of an anti-hero. He's done bad things, he is a shitty person. Who wouldn't be after holding their daughters dying body in their arms and being worn down by 20 years of the apocalypse. But he is actively trying to repair himself and open up, but that comes at the cost of a cure and countless lives.
Thats just my opinion, that's why the ending of this game is so interesting, it makes so many players think and feel differently.
Men will burn entire countrysides to the ground if it means saving their children. They will always forgo being an angelic figure if what's at stake is the pure innocence that is their offspring, because to them their morality is not more important than a child's right to life. I appreciate them being nuanced with the surgeon Jerry but their brief look at him doesn't make up for his impression in the first game so he doesn't look as human as Joel. They are not equals in this setting and so to try and convince the player that Joel deserves to be dead for killing Jerry is LUDICROUS. You can make the player understand Abby but this game fails to make you see her as a moral equal to Ellie.
And then there's the fact that the premise of a revenge plot during such a severe post-apocalypse is pretty asinine to begin with. You can die from just walking 20 minutes out of town and getting ambushed by a single zombie and you're going to put your life on the line for revenge? I don't buy that any of these people are possibly that stupid, including Abby. This is what makes me kinda like Owen, because it's like he's the only self-aware character of how fucked up everything was about going about revenge killings in such a setting. Grief might be able to drive you somewhat mad but it essentially provoked Tommy & Ellie to participate in a literal suicide mission, because they have no reason to believe they are more invincible than any one individual WLF mook they come across. I seriously do not buy this premise with the way it's done. Maybe if Joel was taken hostage instead. A tension-filled rescue mission could drive all these characters to equal if not greater insanity while still making sense of why someone would risk death to pull off such a mission. But when the person you care about is already dead, what's the point of digging your own grave unless you literally wish suicide upon yourself? Ellie and Tommy surely would know Joel would want them to do the opposite of everything they did but the writers decided to not give them a single ounce of self-awareness. This is not a setting where this kind of plot makes sense without the characters being delusional to their in-universe limitations.
It's so hard to give an opinion on this game. It's polarising. When it ended I just didn't know what to think. Its like it just..... happened
like life :\
I still to this very day don’t know what to think. There are stuff that I disagree with not Joel’s death, but rather characters decisions which didn’t feel like a decision they would ever make. But on the other what game has made me feel so much in one play through. Answer is none. On one hand it’s an amazing game, on the other there are flaws.
Igor Rychert In life, people grow and they change. Given the circumstances, some is more secure than another. Who knows if Joel is the same person in the last game. Plus people makes mistake and thats just life. Something the devs said that stick to me is that we as a player think that we know more about these characters than the devs, well we aint. So thats just my point on those “out of character “ of Joel and Tommy.
legend dary Nah I don’t have any problems with Joel’s death like I said or their decisions. I could later down the line understand it. My bigger problem is with the farm sequence. Before I get into that, I don’t enjoy the fact that naughty dog tried to make us sympathize with Abby by showing how bad Ellie is. U know Ellie killing dogs, Killing people, torture them etc while Abby saves animals, pets the dogs, saves people etc. I to this day don’t understand the point of why Ellie ever had a life with Dina if she never meant what she said in the first place. And it may just be me, that seems somewhat of a happy ending for at least Ellie, but hear me out. Ellie has PTSD and survivors guilt since Joel gets killed. She then talks about that perfect life with Dina on a farm, she tells her in Seattle that she never wants to loose her (keep in mind it took them months to travel from Jackson to Seattle, so she has had PTSD for months). And there’s a certain point in the story where Ellie realizes that she needs to choose between Abby and Dina. Leaving Seattle without revenge and killing Abby, but let Dina carry on with her pregnancy in a safe environment or endanger her more for each hour spent in Seattle. She chooses Dina. When Tommy asks her if she’s okay with her still being alive, she answers with “it must be”. So she’s willing to let Abby live so Dina can return. (Also don’t get why Tommy was after revenge in the epilogue when he himself said that they got what they deserved and was ready to leave even with Abby left alive). So in short Ellie chooses Dina in every scenario even after months with PTSD. We get to the farm house. She gets PTSD, Tommy comes tells her that she found her, and she decides to leave Dina, leave her perfect life and knowingly loose Dina. And the fact that she didn’t even flinch when Dina makes it clear that she will leave, she basically says “sounds like a u problem”. Idk man this kind of pissed me off. Farm house felt like it was implemented just to show u how much she will loose and Dina was basically lied to... That’s just my opinion
Igor Rychert a few thoughts are coming to mind after watching the video and reading your comments. I didn’t really care for the contrasting between Ellie killing dogs and Abby petting them. Ellie pet a dog in Jackson and killed dogs that were aggressively trying to prevent her from completing her mission. Abby played with dogs in Seattle but I don’t get the impression she would have behaved and different from Ellie if that was what it took to get revenge on Joel. I’ve never followed that Ellie kills dogs to somehow soil her character. Regarding your point about the trip to Seattle...how did you determine it took months??? I assumed it was maybe a few days. Regarding your larger point related to Ellie’s relationship with Dina, I saw a comment on another video who made an interesting observation. Ellie isn’t wearing Dina’s bracelet in Santa Barbara; however, she is wearing it when she returns to the farm. The commenter concluded this showed Ellie had already reconciled with Dina. He further supported this theory by noting that Ellie never seems to be searching for Dina or seems to be affected by her absence. Thought this was an interesting spin on the end of the game.
To me, when you say “I don’t hate Abby, I just don’t care”. That is exactly what I felt, and honestly its the harshest criticism imaginable. By the end, I barely even cared about Ellie either. It was all exhausting and I wanted it to be over. Ellie was unrecognizable while she used to be that sparky young lady in a bleak world.
Imagine if in Uncharted 2, Nathan Drake was killed by Chloe in the second hour, and then we played as Elena and Chloe going forward?
These things are okay (killing a main character), that can be pulled off (along with Tarantino-izing the timeline), however this requires razor-sharp writing skills, and IMO Druckmann failed. This game was so bloated. At least half of the game could have been omitted, and the same story could have beeb told. The problem is, the extra long game-time, the sidetracked stories and forgettable characters, took me out of what was really going on. By the time we got back to the actual story line, it had been so long, all emotional impact and care that I felt, was gone. A film can do this, because its only 2-3 hours long.
Neil is talented, but he took a risk here and it just didn’t work for a lot of people. Thats okay. I’m growing tired of any criticism of this game, being associated with only bigots, closed-mindedness, or petitioners trying to get the “their game” remade. There are legitimate things to criticize here, and plenty of people who played the entire game, don’t care that Joel died, and could care less about inclusivity.....have things to say.
I’ll be honest, I loved TLOU, and never really connected much to Uncharted. I never understood the love for that series. Its fine....the cinematic action sequences were really cool when they were new. By Uncharted 3, the novelty wore thin for me. Now, I’m a single father of a 12 year old young lady. So of course I can easily put myself into Joel’s shoes.
Now that TLOU2 is out, I’ve heard people say that Joel was THE villain, that Joel and Ellie’s relationship was “creepy” or “perverse”, and that destroying the strong male presence is the obvious way forward.
Look, can we all not agree that we love a good anti-hero? Joel is a tragically flawed character.....ya know? Like most people? We don’t dislike Rey or Captain Marvel because they are women, we dislike them because they are perfect. They have no struggle. Nothing to overcome. We like to see a broken human put themselves back together.
Whats HILARIOUS to me, is Druckmann saying over and over again that, “We knew this game would be divisive,” yet now they are shocked by the divided fan-base??? Really? They have contacted the few professional journalists to criticize the game, in order to inquire why they did this???? Seriously? This alone makes it clear to me, that we have a wannabe auteur with his head so far up his own ass, that he ignored editors, he ignored playtesters, he knew exactly what he was doing.....and now? “Ahhh shucks, why is everybody so worked up? Jeez, its just a game. Excuse me Mr Critic.....did you not see this part or understand that part?”
Captain marvel is not perfect, check the comics and u will see she is weak and there are other women’s in marvels universe stronger, but like naughty dog marvel cinematic pull a agenda on her character to make her the strongest of all and that’s why people hate on her, but yeah u always gonna get that haters
Well said my man, well said!
I’m just like you, but in regards to the last of us. It didn’t connect to me like it did to others, but I can clearly see the huge difference between the first part and the second. I feel the pain for the fans that were very attached to the game and got really disappointed with the second part.
I loved the game and the story and the risks really clicked with me. To me this is the best game and game story ive played. But your criticisms are valid and if you read Neils tweets its not your criticisms that hes saying need to stop. If you read his twitter or laura baileys people are literally giving them and their death threats and throwing some really fucked up shit. That is sexist and anti semetic. Again not liking the game and have criticisms with yours is valid and totally okay. But wanting them to die is so fucked up and wrong. Thats not okay at all and thats what people are saying
Isn't that what the games wants to tell you. Just feel exhausted of all the killing and revenge and just want to finish? Much like ellie and abby
my sweet innocent Joel was killed by Trans character with golfclub, they betrayed him, he suppose to keep killing without repercussion, I hope Tommy
Sue Naughty Dog for betraying him, they made me play as Abby which gave me nightmares, and in the end my sweet angel Ellie who torture Nora didn't kill Abby, Wink 😉
Joel is a killer who killed innocent people before even he me Ellie, Even Troy (Voice) Says so, he had it Coming, he deserve to die for what he did, the problem with a lot of people is that they want easy story where they get to kill everyone and became the hero like every other game
Abby is the villain of the story. Why? Because Joel saved her life and she killed him. Ellie should’ve killed Abby. The entire game is meaningless and pointless. Because the main villain of the story lives and the hero loses everything.
Ellie loses everything, and Abby gets everything she wanted. TLOU2 is 100% Abby's story.
Lol. There is no heero and villain in last of us world.
If you still think the game has heroes and villains, you might have to replay or rewatch the story....
Technically speaking Abby is the Hero. I mean Joel was assumed as the villain in the first game for being selfish. So Abby killed the villain.
All Abby got was Lev, all of her friends are dead and returning to her home isn't a option anymore. She basically becomes the Joel to Levs Ellie. And Ellie has hope for returning to Jackson and repairing things with Dina, the ending leaves too many open doors to say someone lost everything.
19:04 Actually, Neil Druckmann himself admitted in an interview that they altered the trailers on purpose to hide the fact that Joel died at the very beggining. I mean, its on video, and he seems to be proud of it...
He would've had to otherwise everyone would've been like "Joel dies at the beginning"
That’s something that everyone already speculated since the first trailer, it’ll be stupid and naive to not change anything in the trailers
I think it was a very good idea for them to alter the trailers to hide what the story was about. I remember in the avengers infinity war trailers they added characters, and removed objects from certain shots so it would be impossible to figure out the story before hand and I loved it there.
What I think was dishonest for TLOU2, is that they seemed to heavily sugest this would be a Joel And Ellie game when it wasn't. I think if they made it clear that Joel was going to only be a very small part of this game and that it will center more around new characters without telling you about Joel his death that would've been better.
@@vickey111 You can feel Joel's presence throughout the game, though. Not only does he appear in many flashbacks but Ellie is basically trying to BE Joel during her revenge quest. But she's not Joel and that's one of the reasons things don't work out well for her. It's sort of like how the Joker was dead in Arkham Knight yet he was there all the same.
Is this not common practice? Hulk is seen with the other Avengers in the Infinity War trailer, while in reality Hulk refuses to come out throughout the movie.
Naughty Dog: "diversity is as important as gameplay and graphics"
The result: "¡Qué pendeeeeejo wey! ¡Let's go get some burritos with PICANTEEEEEE!" - the walking mexican stereotype
Manny was still a great and funny character :)
@@artyom-ovsepyan Manny is only remembered as the guy who says pendejo a lot, he's mocked even between the latin crowd
@@deadmeme4276 As a Latin (a Argentinian) I can confirm that last one. Tho the eyes of Naughty Dog and Neil Druckmann by a Mexican Latino in EEUU is by a minority. That's why exists the character of Manny. Is a race is not a gender, so if I want watch a Latin character I gonna view a Latin Movie. I miself ask Mexican people in twitter about Terminator: Dark Fate and all hate that movie.
And dont forget that they also made him gay
@@FilthyCasual_YT lmao what? There are multiple mentions of him having chicks over, theres even a bra from a chick he had over you find when playing as Abby since her and Manny are/were roommates
This story that Druckmann created should NEVER have been. You can excuse it all you want, but to me its all pointless and just serves to stroke Druckmann's pretentious ego.
I've played and beaten the game, and while I like portions of it, the story is an absolute mess and the direction was a terrible mistake. It feels like a F-U & middle-finger to fans.
I will NEVER buy another game from ND ever again. And I know that I'm not alone with this sentiment.
I really liked the game but to me this sequel wasn't necessary. Would of prefered a game with different characters in the same world.
@@philipsk Yeah a spin off would have been a better choice tbh
Yes you likes the first Last of Us? I get vibes that this is your first ND game and only play online games in your free time.
@@yorkejones1570
You couldn't be more wrong. I've been gaming for 40+ years and have played every Naughty Dog game, beginning with "Way of the Warrior" for the ill-fated 3DO. I've played all the Uncharted games and the Last of Us. I DON'T play On-line, because I don't like it (not my cup of tea). And how does any of this render my opinion moot? What, if I did play On-line that would mean what? I've been playing videogames for a long time, I've watched many movies over my life and still read several books every year...I know what a good story is, and I know what a terrible story is, and the LoU2 is utter trash.
How the game was supposed to end:
Tommy: "I am Tommy and this is my brother."
Joel: "Rip van Winkle"
Ending
i wonder what would have happened if they faked their name like that? Like are they gonna chill, cup of tea, chit chat and the golf club never mudded with blood.
Abby already knew tommy was Joel’s brother, so that wouldn’t really work.
Abby: "We're looking for a guy name Joel...You heard of him?"
Joel: "Naaaaaaaaaaah, good luck finding him".
@@lucasmaury2627 I don't think Abby recognised either of them until they introduced themselves. I think Abby put two and two together once Joel's name was mentioned.
@@lucasmaury2627 Come on, now, that's just lazy, forced writing.
The last of us part one is my favourite game in my 30 years of gaming. It just hit a note that resonated with me.
The last of us part two is the biggest disappointment in my 30 years of gaming. I sincerely wish they never made it.
Part 1: Lets make an amazing, hearttouching story, gamers will love it!
Part 2: Lets make a provocative, ideas-pushing piece of art, oh and its also a video game I guess.
The first game was made for the gamers, the second game was made for the creator and just the creator. Regardless of any sense of ownership, if you are in buisness and intend on making something, anything that people are meant to buy, making it just for yourself is utterly failing at your job.
@@GuardianSeyden well this isn't an avengers videogame. i'm happy they didn't pander to fans.
@@GuardianSeyden just because it's not everything you ever wanted in a game doesnt mean the creator made it for themselves that's just a stupid way if thinking
@@akraman7274 you're clearly in denial still. All one needs to do is look at the story and writing and characters in part one. Then look at the same,or in some cases lack thereof, in part 2
@@Varun-vv9mi Stop going on Twitter.
i totlay agree. Part 2, make a bold mistak to make us "try care about abby/ lew and her father", but in the same time dont care about 1000 NPC killed in the same time. Even worst. they make retarded plot where PREGNANT women like in 5 month pregnancy go to yourney just to kill some guy in ZOMBIE APOCALYPSE WORLD. Thats whay this story suck. WE DONT CARE ABOUT ABBY. for us she was just daughter of NPC, and any scene with cute doggy, cringe sex scene or when she resuce Lev, dont make her for us a HERO of this story.
AND the worst mistake. THIS ENDING. WHICH have no sense. LItelary is just RAMBO simulator and this awkard boss fight with ABBY... just to let her go... WTF
6/10
IGN 10/10 👌
I think Neil let his head get to him and that ego and obsession with social hot topics greatly worsened the writing for part 2. I just found the pacing and characters so mediocre compared to part 1. I don't fault people for being upset because they feel they were tricked by the advertising. Also the amount of borderline retconning they did for the Fireflies in part 2 was questionable imo. All of the sudden a cure was pretty much guaranteed and they were good guys, no questions asked? I don't know. It was impossible for me to get into this game but I'm glad the people who enjoyed it had fun. Abby's campaign would have been better received if it were a spin off or DLC imo but hey I'm not a ND exec.
You're so right about the ego thing. Really sounds like Neil overestimated his own writing skills and tried to tell a highly risky story he didn't have the writing skills to pull off. I'll give him credit for taking a risk, but nothing more.
@irox1914 I personally don't see 14 year old Ellie growing into 19 year old Ellie either. Ive seen the gradual change ND released but it's too harsh a change for me to believe. I never saw anyone growing up that had their face change so much in 4 years. Character models just change. Look at the new Horizon game. Aloy looks very different.
@irox1914 It doesn't help that you find a recording of that doctor pinning his hopes on Ellie's immunity to literally be the it factor for creating a vaccine, when they have continuously experimented on numerous people of different infection levels and have produced literally nothing from it. How was this going to be any different? The lead up to that scene in TLOU 2 just unwittingly reaffirms the viewer/players' decision to agree with Joel's decisions and actions in that hospital. They literally retconned that to make it so Joel was in the wrong the whole time and this was the experiment that was going to save the world (even though there was no guarantee of that happening).
Agreed
Neil Druckmann was a great writer/director for the first instalment, but with the feminism ideologies are implemented into the story; that's where it feels redundant. I just wish he would concentrate on the quality of the narrative and neglect the overall political stuff that was included in the sequel.
It’s incredible how desperately they tried to manipulate you into liking Abby, even at the expenses of Ellie and Joel, and even in gameplay terms
Abby gets the best gameplay sections, the best scenarios, the best boss fights, the best weapons and a better melee combat
And In the story they try to portray Joel’s decision as objectively wrong instead of a understandable morally grey decision that many people would have done the same, in this they beat us in the head with: “its wrong, he is a monster, he killed a doctor savior of zebras and so on”
You know the character is terrible when you need to paint your previous protagonist as monsters and being in the wrong instead of flawed yet relatable humans and downgrade their gameplay in order to make your new face of the franchise tolerable and still fail
Fully agreed. I felt so forced
I totally see where you're coming from, but I personally felt like the game wasn't actually making any judgements at all! I felt like it was saying "All these characters can be seen as wrong and monsters, but at the same time, each characters can also be seen as right and justified from their perspectives due to their past traumas." I think that made it more impactful, and more disturbing in a very real and honest way!
Brian Pater yes!!!! That’s exactly how I felt it was like yes Joel seems like an absolute monster from abbys perspective and Ellie seems like a monster to Abby but seeing both persvpectives I know that’s not the case and that’s what makes it so tragic.
Brian here has taken the words out of my mouth.. the above is literally regurgitated angry joe review😅
In my opinion everything about ellies half was better, knife combat felt excellent, bolt action for the win in anything and even aesthetically.. ellie was a far cooler looking character.
Do I wish this game was 28 hours of ellie? I did and I still kind of do.. do I think the end result was worth it, i do.
Arguing about this game is jokes online now but my personal experience with this game was next to none.
I liked abby more than Ellie for gameplay reasons, she's just so much more fun to play than Ellie, I didn't care about the story since it was so tragic that it became a comedy
What annoyed me about the story is realizing it had nothing to do with the last of us or Joel and Ellie. It could have been inserted into any franchise and the message would stay the same. We wanted a sequel for Joel and Ellie
It had everything to do with Joel and Ellie... what are you even talking about? The consequences of their relationship is what sparked the whole game.
@@wazzupman245 yeah but he means it could happen to anyone. If anyones father is killed you want revenge and this didn't have to be Joel and Ellies story. I am fine with it though, but I love the first game way more
@Tyrius Wolfe I’m sure you can find characters that had a connection in any game. For example, Rafe could have killed Sully and Nathan could have gone looking for him and they could have made you kill his pregnant wife and he could have almost killed pregnant Elena and they could have made you play half the game as Rafe
@Tyrius Wolfe Part 1 could have only happened to Joel and Ellie
@@PassportGaming The only thing special about Joel and Ellie is that Ellie is immune. They already effectively resolved that plot line in the first one, so it's not like they could retread that same plot line again. Also I would disagree that this could happen to anyone with a strong bond. Joel did some fucked up shit, so it creates the potential to empathize with Abby even if you're mad at her for killing Joel. In her eyes Joel not only killed her father, but also a man who was the only savior of the world.
Intentions don't matter if they can't be conveyed properly.
Indifference is no better than boredom and that's what most people felt while playing this game. My biggest gripe was with how terribly written the story is. It's full of nonsensical plot holes and character motivations as well as not even being able to commit to their "revenge is bad" ideal. By refusing to apply the same consequences to both characters.
Its a piece of shit polished to look like a diamond. It might be pretty to some, but in essence it will always be that. (piece of shit might be a bit too harsh but I couldn't think of a different analogy)
Turd maybe?
Lol those are some big words. Especially from someone who don't know the difference between Plot and Story and Writing.
@@rudfilmsstudios do you have anything of value to provide to the conversation? Or are you just gonna keep attacking the people to avoid dealing with their criticisms of the game?
I was bothered by one thing about the game that I have never heard in any review. It was how invulnerable some characters seem to be. Best examples are Tommy, Ellie and Dina.
Tommy was shot by Abby in the head, or at least in the head area, and yet he somehow survived that. Dina got an arrow in the shoulder and her head was beaten by Abby several times on a concrete floor. Consider Abbys upper arm muscles. Ellie literally bled from her eyes and her arm was broken. Nevertheless these three people managed to escape from a city infected by fungus zombies, which is also flooded by enemy factions and generally in a desolate state!
Later Ellie was impaled in the kidney area and she survived that too. Even with this serious injury, she made it home alone again. Also Abby was tied on a stake for several days, standing, half starving and half dying of thirst and still survived a fight with Ellie. These were all very unbelievable moments for me. Was I the only one for whom this was so unbelievable?
Nope. I've also got a question regarding some blatant deus ex machinas. For example: where the fuck did Yara come from when Abby fought Tommy? She had one hand, she was super far away and then she suddenly appeared just in time to stab Tommy? I hate situations like this so much.
It's called plotarmor. The game and the characters just seem to do things that are there for plot convenience. They act in completely illogical ways because the story requieres them to do so. Furthermore the game has a heavy reliance on coincidenceses, especially in the prologue where Joel just runs into Abby, which just seems like lazy writing.
@@Zoeconium I know what that is. Nevertheless, I found this much more annoying than any alleged agenda.
Nevertheless I liked the gameplay and except for the plotarmor I liked the story development.
They’re main characters. It’s called plot armor. You see how the side characters easily died. Same reason Goku will always beat the main villain. It’s in every form of entertainment.
@@BishopM1 I know what plot armor is. But to see it that visible...that bothered me a bit. And also "York" said that before you.
They didn't mislead people, they blatantly lied.
You do know they did the same thing with the first game right?
@@Aiman-yu6qg Please, enlighten us.
boymahina123 when interviewing Bruce and Neil they had said Joel was the only playable character but it was a lie and they did the same thing here
Aiman 2346 yeah but that’s kind of different you play as Ellie for what? Maybe an hour? And it doesn’t feel forced. But u play as abby for more than 10 hours and it definitely feels forced I hated every minute playing as her.
@@Aiman-yu6qg That's not a lie. We play as Joel for 95% of the game and just play as Ellie for 5%. They straight up lied and said this was Joel and Ellie's story and that Ellie was the only playable character but we play as Abby for half of the game and she's Joel's killer. We also are forced to fight Ellie as Abby and the entire story is centered around her instead of Ellie and Joel.
21:20 to 21:50 I'm sorry, but it just doesn't work for me. Abby is too far gone for me to ever care. Had she just shot him point blank, i'd probably be ok with ND's approach, but brutally torturing Joel to death after he had just saved her life, makes the character irredeemable for me.
ND wanted the player to hate her at the start but they went so overboard with it, that when the other shoe is supposed to drop, it just doesn't.
Playing as Abby also did absolutely nothing for the character. Even at the end of the Abby part she's ok with killing a girl who she knows is pregnant (It's Lev who stops her). Contrast this to Ellie, who got so fucked up from killing Nora that she abandoned her plan to kill Abby's friends and only accidently kills Mel, not knowing she's pregnant (this what you got completely wrong at 31:15 btw.). And once she finds out she's even more fucked up.
We get nothing like this from Abby. Absolutely fucking nothing.
From this point on, no Naughty Dog for me, just hot dogs or bigot sandwiches.
i would look if some people quit and created different company or if neil druckman was not there .He is the main villain , lol
I understood that reference. HA!
Yeah right, you’ll be first in line for uncharted 5 IF it comes out
@@77headshoter I don't even like Uncharted so much, its mediocre for me, haven't played 4 or lost legacy yet.
I'm not necessarily angry at Abby... but I am angry at how and why she was created. Naughty Dog was quite manipulative in how they wanted the player to view Ellie as the bad guy and Abby as the good guy. Some would argue that both characters were placed in a neutral light, yet, at least to me, it never felt that way.
It should have been Ellie that saved Abby. Then you would play as those 2 for most of the game and it isnt until later that you find out who Abby is what she's after. THAT would have actually created a real dilemma because you would actually like Abby instead of them trying to force her on you through really gross and obvious emotional manipulation.
I think an even better story would have been if Ellie and Abby were friends for years beforehand.
Abby confides in Ellie what happened to her dad but isn't sure who's responsible and Ellie doesn't tell her the truth to protect Joel.
When Abby finds out somehow, she kills Joel, then Ellie's revenge story begins.
I think the revenge plot would have carried a lot more weight to it that way.
britbloc123 but that will not work as a game
@Geralt of Trivia I bet every form of criticism towards TLOU 2 seems cryptic and vague to you. Cause I kniw exactly what these two mean and don't see how that's nearly vague.
I get that but the reason why I like the structure is because it is purposefully presents the "event" before the perspectives which mirrors the way we read about personal events in the news. We are purposefully not made out to spend time with abby in the beginning so that our first impressions of her is bad the same way we are introduced to people we read about in the news. Alot of people might only listen to one side of the story to feed their own righteousness to prove to themselves that their first impressions of that person were correct rather than challenging themselves with a different perspective. So halfway through this game it basically says to us that now it is our responsibility to walk a mile in the shoes of the person who has wronged us. I kinda like it imo
The entire point is to take a character you hate and ask you to understand them and empathize with them. What you're suggesting would be fine, I suppose, but it would be a completely different story with an entirely different purpose.
TLOU2 graphics were great but the story lacks substance and direction. It's arranged poorly and the decision to kill Joel early wasn't smart. That pregnant character running around was so cringe. Neil Druckman is trying so hard to force others to believe what he does. That's not a video game, that's propaganda. All the forced lgbtq+ takes you out of the story. It's very clear someone is preaching to you and it's not just a game. You should let each player make up their own mind rather than preach to them. Also, it poisons future developers who actually want to use a gay character or trans character to send a meaningful message. You know movies that just use excessive blood and guts to hide their lack of talent? It was just like that. I didn't find anything genius or though provoking about it. It was tasteless. Neil should be fired for incompetence. He won't though because his corrupt friends at Sony will protect him at the costs of the real geniuses that are debilitated from crunch.
Same thing will happen to Uncharted. It's already slowly implementing the same themes of forced diversity. They probably have a quota or something. It's crazy.
Forced lgbtq? Where?
Yeah, but the game also had Fat Geralt punching a little girl's head so hard that she never woke up again. It gets some humor points for that moment alone.
When I played The Last Of Us, I only killed the surgeon and left the two assistants alive.
Well i did kill both bc i thought i had too but then in my 2nd play throughi didnt
I shot him in his foot and he died and I even shot Ellie and she didn't she was immortal I don't understand why he tried to save her .
Same!
I shot him in the foot, and i didn’t kill him. Seriously, the game didn’t count it in the kill counter.
so did i
Bruh, Ellie was traumatized AFTER she found out Mel was pregnant. Abby would've killed Dina with the knowledge of her being pregnant
Right? It’s like people forget that the only reason Abby didn’t kill Dina was only because Lev was there to stop her. Ellie didn’t even want to kill Mel or Owen and shockingly, on a rare occasion, acted in self defense (semi since she did start the conflict). Abby literally says “Good” as she’s about to knowingly and willingly kill a pregnant woman. Not only that but Ellie clearly suffers and feels remorse for killing Mel (as OP already stated) and from what we’ve seen we have never seen Abby feel bad for her kills
Zion Simanian Yeah, I think the main idea was to show that there is no moral right or wrong here. Both are seeking revenge on their father (or father figure) and are willing to perform atrocities without hesitation on their path for revenge. Neither woman is morally above each other and it makes you question whether supporting Ellie’s quest for revenge is justified after you learn what Abby also had to go through.
Abby walked into the scene of the dead bodies of her two friends. She didn't know Ellie unknowingly killed a pregnant woman - as far as she's concerned, Ellie did it in cold blood. I think she was acting out of pure spite at the point at which she said "good." Given what we'd been shown of Abby's character I highly doubt she would take joy out of killing a pregnant woman for any reason other than to get back at someone who killed *her* pregnant friend.
@@zionsimanian9310 Abby and Ellie's situations regarding the pregnant women are not the same: Ellie does show remorse after killing Mel, but Abby is intending to kill Dina as a response to that. The difference being that Abby is doing it in retaliation. So while, yes, they are both intending to kill the pregnant women and show different emotions while doing so, their motivators are entirely different. This is the point of the game.
ellie wouldn’t have been as traumatized if dina weren’t pregnant
Neil needed Bruce to weed out his bad decision making.
Oh yeah. Imho Bruce Straley deserves the credit for part one being the masterpiece that it is.
The advertising switch of Jesse for Joel is just straight up false advertising. It just is.
Changing characters in trailer is not a rare thing most of the mcu movie trailers for the big avengers movies do this
The final product of the game isn’t affected because the studio “lied to you so you would waste your money”
No different from raiden in mgs2
I understand this sentiment although I think it is a separate issue from the quality of the game itself. I think it is natural to create an advertisement with a certain amount of misdirection. It was even more surprising that Naughty Dog had the media play a demo that seemed to place the Joel appearance into context and appeared to confirm his assisting Ellie on her revenge mission. I enjoyed the game but feel a bit uncomfortable with how far ND went to mislead the fan base.
Fernando Bernes I think it hurts more when you’re paying 60 bucks for a video game that’s narratively driven though. Being lied to in a movie trailer when you pay movie ticket price is a much easier pill to swallow. It’s still false advertising at the end of the day, you’re still attached to the characters, then they lie about the story. Every fan has a right to feel angry about being lied to, however you are only paying a small amount of money for a movie, compared to a game. That doesn’t change my opinion however that false advertising on every front no matter the price of the product should be condemned totally.
You hit the nail right on the head in this video: Naughty Dog sold this game to consumers as being about Joel and Ellie. I hope it was financially worth it to Naughty Dog to sacrifice consumer confidence in their studio, because you can only fool people like this once.
While a lot of people thought Joel would die, to do that in the PREMISE of the game and then LIE about it in marketing AND prevent initial reviewers from mentioning it is immoral. It's one thing for reviewers to give it a 10/10, when it is more like an 8/10, but to fool consumers to get their money is despicable and further enraged players who were already going to be upset at how Joel was killed. It honestly seems like Naughty Dog wanted to infuriate their fans as part of some marketing stunt.
The game is about Joel and Ellie
They didn't sell you on a lie, though. They just omitted playing as Abby. The game is still fundamentally about Joel and Ellie, as Joel's actions drive Abby's and Ellie's quests for revenge.
I agree the game IS about Joel and Ellie. They were also very clear that this game was going to be much more focused on Ellie. They made this apparent in both interviews and in the trailers. That being said they did take some unusual steps to mislead fans regarding Joel’s specific role. I get the criticism on this point but it didn’t affect my overall enjoyment of the game.
@@ZephyrFate I'm sorry but there is no like comma there. People didn't want a game that you have to look at from the side through crooked lens to make it seem like it was somehow connected to Joel and Ellie. They didn't want a game that was "fundamentally" about Joel and Ellie. They wanted a game that featured Joel and Ellie going on an adventure that further developed their characters
8 out 10 are you crazy? It's 5 out of 10 at the absolute most
To say that Joel's impact is only like an hour and half of the game isn't true. He appears throughout the game in flashbacks. He is always on Ellie's mind. His presence is felt throughout. He may not be playable but he's there and very very much part of the story.
THANK YOU! He is the catalyst for the series of events that takes Ellie to her lowest lows and helps brings her back from her breaking point.
Not necessarily impact but rather how much time we see him on our screens. His death was the plot of the story but we only got to see him for about an hour from a 25 hour game
@@jomtz6739 It may not be much time but it's always a powerful scene. Playing guitar for Ellie, taking her to the museum, encountering that bloater while looking for guitar strings, and of course the death scene. Joel is part of the lowest lows and highest highs of the game.
@@jomtz6739 it's a sequel bro, the death hits cause we played part 1
You are very right, even after his death he was never gone🤗
I'm tired of this "your just mad because the story didn't go the way you wanted." We are allowed to not like something if we don't like the story. If you were reading LOTR and in the return of King sauron killed all the characters and won that would be a valid reason to not like the book. Same goes for this game.
I used to say the same thing as you do a couple of weeks ago. I kept making all kinds of excuses to not like the game.
You can even still find some of my own arrogant comments trashing the game on many tlou2 related videos, and I’m not hiding that or deleting them.
That was until I actually tried to understand the story. I bought it for myself and finished it twice, then and only then I really understood what the story was supposed to mean.
It’s not about not liking the game because it didn’t go the way you wanted but rather have you At least tried your best to understand the plot? Or are you forcing yourself to not like it because the majority is saying so?
Again, there are some flaws here and there, I won’t deny that. But, that in no way or form is a formidable excuse for the game to get all this kind of exaggerated hate.
Bryan- haha yeah that would ROTK druckmann edition
Devs hates you for not liking a story in a story driven game, it's not a battle royale game for God's sake
@@ibrahimsafwat No Abe. I understand the plot. I'm not a toddler, it's not hard to understand. Tolkien was talented he could've written a plot that made sense in which Sauron won and you know what?... that would still suck. Stop it
You can dislike the story all you want , but people trash it and call it garbage JUST because they didn’t like it , but I respect where your coming from
I'm in the camp of despising this game, for one aspect only - how completely plain and uncompelling Abby is and how the game hands her all the moral karma, weighting everything 100% unrealistically against Ellie/the player. It really is infuriating. Imagine how differently the Abby character would be if, instead of just angelically telling her father, "if it was me, I'd want you to do the surgery", the father then turned to her and honestly asked, "What about Ellie, then? Should I do the surgery on her?" Instead, the narrative takes all that pressure off from precious little Abby, leaving us to grasp for any compelling hook we demand to have. And that's only one example. This game really was a cheap mindscrew on the part of Naughty Dog, and fans have every right to be angry and disappointed.
Thanks for your comments, Robin. I appreciate them.
Agreed. Abby was a character clearly created for Druckmanns twitter following and a soft reboot and replacement for Joel and Ellie. It's glaringly obvious and absolutely disgusting
In Part 3 Neil is going to make a random character from this game seek revenge and kill Dina because Ellie killed his dog in Seattle.... probably.
I'd play it easily if the gameplay gets even better. yes lawd!
I can see a part 3 where there is an Ellie/Abby duo. That would be interesting
Been patiently waiting for this video, watching it right now and I’m sure you and Josh made a great video again Robin!
If they wanted a morally grey world. They could take inspiration from the New Vegas. Paint everything in red, not just one person in order to justify their "gotta end the revenge cycle" cliche story. People talking about how brave and unique story TLoU2 has, I have watched enough shounen anime to disagree... -_-
Hunter x Hunter dealt with the topic of revenge twice and it worked wonderfully.
See, I’m not even mad about the direction they went with this game. It was almost expected. And I enjoyed the game. It’s the fact that Naughty Dog has lied multiple times about this game. That is what pissed me off and disappointed me. And then as soon as someone rates the game negatively, they say it’s because they’re homophobic. They have always been my favorite gaming company, but this has really shown their true colors. If they don’t start growing up, idk if I’ll want to support them anymore.
Amber Peterson it makes no sense to not change anything in the trailers at all, people already speculated that Joel’s gonna die, not changing anything is just stupid and naive
Their comments are directed to those that are actually homophobic. If you're not homophobic then it shouldn't affect you. Naughtydog, the cast, the staff, Laura Bailey all been getting death threats from homophobes and haters ever since they showed Ellie and Dina kissing at E3 trailer, even before the leaks. which is why (and can you blame them) for making that opinion? I think people are overly sensitive and let their emotions outweigh logic. That's why the game gets a lot of hate without any reason
Netson Eng you can make the trailer look like something it’s not but also NOT lie. The movie Hereditary’s trailer for example. It shows scenes that make you think one thing but is actually another without making up bogus scenes that never happen in the movie.
In Game Details I know there are homophobic people who are unfairly rating this game. But they assume that EVERY negative review is because the reviewer is homophobic. And that’s not fair at all.
It seems like people are reviewing Neil Druckmann as a person, naughtydog as a studio and the marketing material for being misleading....everything surrounding the game...but the actual game. And THIS is not fair at all. Or even honest.
It's like a chef making a sandwich. And people are already hating the sandwich....cause on the menu it showed stars surrounding the sandwich (WHERE'S MY STARS???) and also did you know the chef is a SIMP. Crossing their arms and already rating the sandwich a 0/10 without even ordering the sandwich or even taking a bite. You have to eat it first before saying anything that is honest or valid, even if you hate the chef or didn't get the stars you wanted. It shouldn't even matter when reviewing the actual sandwich and how it actually tastes. Could it be the best sandwich you ever ate or the worst? YOU DONT KNOW UNLESS YOU TASTE IT. Who do you take seriously when fairly rating the sandwich? The person who actually ate the sandwich or the person who is already rating the sandwich based on the chef's reputation or personal life? Because logic should actually be, if people are normal that you'd take more seriously the person who ate the sandwich to give the honest opinion about the sandwich
Same thing could be said for people already rating the sandwich a 10/10 just cause the sandwich is made by Gordan Ramsey doesn't mean it's automatically good. People these days need to eat the sandwich before properly rating it. Rather than judging the final product based on the creator's lives or the marketing (which should have been taken with a grain of salt) surrounding it.
It's like the iPhone, people were like: "this is an amazing technology" until finding out that people in China are jumping off buildings creating it....but the fact still stands..... that it is an amazing piece of technology. You can't just suddenly say overnight that "it's bad 0/10" that's just insulting. You can hate Apple, Steve Jobs and the whole situation all you like but does it change how the iPhone looks or functions? Or how it influenced other technology we have today?
Same thing with TLOU2, judge the game for what it is. Rather than allow everything around it cloud your honest opinion on the actual game.
Can you please do an in-depth review for Ghost of Tsushima as well. That's one of the final big games of the generation
@@RobinGaming Whoop! Let's go
Final big "sony exclusive". We still have Cyberpunk and whatever Nintendo deciedes is their year end game.
@@hanzohattori9576 Yeah Cyberpunk is looking really good. Honestly this year has been awesome for games.
@@hanzohattori9576 I bet for Nintendo it's going to be Bayonetta 3 since I doubt Metroid Prime 4 is going to be in any ready state any time soon.
@@aaronjoy980 I'm worried about the combat in Cyberpunk. The melee in particular looks horrific. I'm sure the quest creativity and variety will carry it along with the world and characters.
In my opinion the First Last Of Us didn't suffer from ludonarrative dissonance. We were put into a horrible world, and was told to do whatever it takes to survive. We always knew that if Joel didn't kill them, Joel and Ellie would be killed, every single encounter. Both the human and the infected firefights.
@UCQl_AUj9VD3QsC3SG269UjA I killed exactly one dog in a scene I had no controll over in which the character acted in self defense.
I killed exactly 10 people in hill crest section (from vers first dog encounter until you meet the "lone male trespasser").
6 people in the hospital section.
Can't remember the rest like the park, the boat section or the scar part on the way to the hospital.
Edit: specified hill crest section.
All in all, though, I definitely killed less people than in TLOU.
No one is using that term correctly
@Tim Williams wow You sound very agitated and vulgar from that guy just sharing his opinion.
Is everything alright, my friend?
@@psobczak86 agreed. I killed ONLY if I had to which was on survivor the last 2 or 3 blocking the exit
The game makes it nigh impossible to not kill people in it, it isn't like they give you non-lethal options to navigate the game. The game is specifically set up in its combat system that killing everything is mandatory and the easiest solution to get through the game. And then it wants to preach at you violence bad, revenge bad when the gameplay encourages you to be violent when dealing with enemies. That's what makes it so hypocritical.
Yeah it's weird, they wanted me to feel pity for the people who were trying to kill me during gameplay... the dogs were the only thing that worked for me in that regard
There is a very clear difference between Abby killing the wolves and scars they encounter who both have “kill on sight” policies and her torturing Nora for information. It’s just not the same situation
@@illustriousindividual1077 It seems effective until you realize it audio loops.
Yeah that’s the entire point of the story. It’s not being hypocritical, it’s showing the emotional toll violence takes on Ellie. Ellie is in the wrong through most of this story, but you’re forced to play as her because it’s her story, not your story.
The fact that you have the choice to bisect your ex-allies via explosives tend to makes one think less of asop the narrative is trying to convey.
Honestly, after the trailers I lost excitement from the game. It seemed to me that naughty dog was going to preach to me their message and force it down my throat. The first game provided a nuance and interesting take on relationship, what is right is very much left up to the player to decide. The first game felt natural, it had a good balance of despair and hope which allowed you to make it through hard times. The second game had lost all that hope and left just the despair while shaming you for doing the things the game forces you to do. The game shoves, "revenge is bad," so hard in your face while making you suffer through the events of the game for that exact reason. These points are what killed my motivation to play.
I disagree with 'revenge is bad'. It doesn't tho. It's more everything you do has consequences and there is always 2 sides of the story. But tbh the game has many messages I dont think you can conclude it to 1.
The game is more about forgiveness than revenge imo.
@@aaronjoy980 I agree.
@@yorkejones1570 honestly thats a much more succinct way to put it. I suppose that still feeds into my complaint because you are getting punished over and over for actions you have no choice in. I think that is the root of my complaint is maybe the lack of choice in doing bad things so the message falls a bit flat when there is no choice involved? Hmm thanks for the comment because it gives me more to think about.
@@Nixsua I think they force you into doing things you don't want to for a reason. Even if you know you should stop, another person won't so they just wanted to present how much Ellie lost her mind due to revenge and for us to understand our actions can have consequences such as joel taking away ellie from possibly being the cure.
The thing I don't think Naughty Dog understood was I didn't want a sequel to The Last of Us necessarily. I just wanted a sequel to Joel and Ellie's story. I don't really care about whatever message they were trying to send. I'm not even saying this game had to have a happy conclusion, only that they explored the relationship that we all cared about. I guess they kind of did, but only in a hand waving sort of way. It would have been very difficult to keep Joel alive and explore the relationship in a real and gratifying way, so they took the easy road and chose the cheapest way to get an emotional response from the audience.
Personally, Naughty Dog taking the easy road is probably the last thing I'd think about this game.
I still have respect for Neil Druckmann due to the first game,but i can't like this game. This has been the worst sequel i've ever seen. Nothing worked for me.
Niko Pogo I agree tbh.
@@EZM7 Druckman had not much influence in first game. Others reined in him. DLC was first thing where druckman was in position to pursuit his agenda freely. No one was there to reign him in with second game.
In first game everyone else thought ellie to be preteen and stomped on druckman tendencies to sexualise her. In last scene where ellie talks to joel she says "my best _friend_ was to first to die". In dlc it was revealed that she was her girlfriend and druckman aged her so it would not be so, unrealistic cringe.
Releasing game in fathers day was intentional.
@@TuubiName How could he not have had much influence if he was a writer ?
The first being a masterpiece is because of Bruce Straley more than Druckmann. If Straley would have left before uncharted 4 I guarantee Druckmann would have ruined that as well. Tlou2 is clearly Druckmann unchained. You've been warned
@@TuubiName exactly
Kratos: after killing all the gods i will forgive you zeus because revenge is bad
But god of war is diffrent then TLOU
@@eyas6943 don't try to have a conversation with them. They simply hate the game, no matter what happens.
EyasGAMES yeah but it’s the same concept going on a killing spree for revenge
I mean, the God of War series certainly doesn't say that Kratos's mindless quest for revenge was a good thing lol
I’m not trying to change anyone’s opinion or anything but no offense these comparisons are so dumb
I think they completely failed at making me empathise with Abby. She tortures and kills Joel while his daughter watches and begs her to stop. She shows no remorse, regret or inner conflict for doing something so inhumane. Even if Joel killed her father to save his daughter. It doesn't excuse such a barbaric act. If they made her suffer for her revenge like Ellie did, and made her show remorse and regret for killing Joel in the way that she did. I'd probably like her alot more.
The point was never to make you empathize with Abby. The point was to show you her story and make you question whether if seeking revenge is the best way to accept loss and move on. Abby did suffer after killing Joel. Her nightmares did not end. She ended up destroying her relations with her close friends. She ends up getting tortured for months by the Rattlers. She does show remorse but not in a direct way. She regrets her decision to torture Joel hence the reason she tries to redeem herself by saving Yara and lev even though she could've very well let both of them die. Even in the cutscene where she kills Joel she hesitates just for a second to deliver the final blow. The aim of showing Abby's story was to show Ellie and Abby in the same light and to question the player's willingness to kill people as Ellie.
Uhh Abby knew that Joel didn't have a kid.
Ellie could've been just another member of Jackson.
And she didn't torture him in front of her, just killed him.
But it's okay when Ellie seeks revenge on Abb'ys friends? Although she doesnt know if they did anything wrong? Abby at least knew what extreme things Joel had done. Ellie killed many of Abby's friends who were supposedly innocent.
I think you are just emotionally too attached to Ellies charector as she was there in the first game too. Hating Abby for a somewhat justified revenge kill, but being affectionate for Ellie, who kills in cold blood to get to Abby seems like your personal problem more than a problem in the story. Although I still think a lot of people think the same way as you, and it makes perfect sense why. Abby basically murders everything the first game was and in many people eyes also what the second game was supposed to be.
When I watched your Naughty Dog Agenda video everything felt right now today I thought you would be more critical of the game but you're not. Something deep inside tells me that this is not your honest opinion. You're too much balanced in your analysis.
Edit:
However, I do appreciate the time and effort you put in your videos. I really love watching them keep it up friend.
Agreed. He's holding back.
Yeah honestly felt the same way. He really tried to stay neutral
Well I mean he did say he feels indifferent about the game, he doesn’t really hate it or love it
Agreed. His opinion seems to be “safe” rather than critical, which was what I admired about his Naughty Dog Agenda video.
The fact that he criticized ND when the criticism was %100 justified.
I heard an interesting theory. A movie critic analyzed this game as “completely denying the first game”. Most fans of first game sympathized with Joel as themselves. And Ellie was like a daughter to players. You will feel pain as much as you loved from first game. Neil might decided to make players to deny first game since he can’t make better game than first one. That being said we players execute most of hateful actions. That is very intentional. None of them are satisfied. Constantly torturing and disgust players to deny first game. The movie critic said “That might be the goal of Neil”. Neil is very talented writer. There is no way he wouldn’t expect this reactions from fans. Neil is obviously enjoying the backlash now. His tweets prove it everyday.
The movie critic said “it’s just so sad there was no one left to stop Neil to proceed this story”.
Well you got it right that it was deliberate. Neil is really just sending a poor message poorly right now.
@Janssen Ongaigui I was more depressed than furiois after I played TLOU2. Thanks to the critic,I finally understand it was purposely ruined first game. So I am not depressed anymore. I don’t have to be.
Thanks a lot for replying
But it doesn't deny the first game... It broadens the scope of it show us that there's "my truth, your truth and the truth".
I'm a fan of the first game since it launched on 2013, and I loved Part 2, even more than the first.
To the people that think that Neil is this obsessed with the fans or thinking how to make them suffer perhaps they should listen to some interviews he have done. He explains a lot about the storytelling decisions. There were a lot of people working in this game, in this story.
And if you end up loving, liking, or being indifferent to Abby the game have done its job. Since you are not hating her as in the beginning.
Couldn't have said it better. As far as I'm concerned there is no last of us 2. Futher proves his point when you realize that druckmann redacted the journals you could find at the hospital in part one plainly stating that the fireflies attempted a cure before with every patient dying as a result. He took it out with a "patch"
@@karlabravo8351 "If you end up loving, liking, or being indifferent to Abby the game has done its job" is an ingenuous way of patting yourself on the back for having done at least something.
Hey Robin, awkwardchair here. Been a while. Personally I loved this game and story, despite its flaws (some forced melodrama, pacing issues, etc). Its themes on grief and anger really struck a chord with me, especially given how I have lost several family members this year and found myself in Ellie’s and Abby’s shoes, similarly. Joel’s death may have come out of left field, but deaths in real life rarely do come expected, and I came to respect that decision. I also loved this game for how it promotes discussion such as this video; and although a lot of it has been toxic on all sides, I’ve been really enjoying dissecting and seeing how it resonantes with players open-minded enough to see it to its finale. I never wanted a TLOU 1.5, and I ultimately love how different and risky this story is (and I understand why that doesn’t work for others). This was a great video, and you did a great job showing how your perspective shaped your thoughts on this.
I love that a game never made feel so much, even though I had a lot of bad fellings, it was really intense. The flaws are there, but I can't see how it is a "shit story".
I loved it as well. Personally I think it’s terrible as a sequel (in how it lines up story-wise), but as it’s own story and being able to simply appreciate it for what it is, it’s a phenomenally-crafted game. I focus more on what the game is on its own, but being reminded of where it stands In relation to the first game gives me mixed feelings.
TheRealAirplane99 agreed. In my mind it’s up there with RDR2 as the most ambitious AAA narrative-driven single-player games I’ve ever played
Furtalance_x I play certain games for escapism but going into TLOU I don’t expect or necessarily want that from it. I go in more for the experience and to have my thoughts and emotions provoked. I get that not everyone wants that from their games though and that’s understandable it’s just a matter of subjectivity 👍
Samuel Dantas yes. I think the fact that people get so emotional and impassioned over this game, as the writers intended, is proof that it’s not “shit writing”. People are allowed to fundamentally disagree with story decisions but that doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be able to acknowledge the intentions and manners in how the artist handles it.
As a great fictional character once said:
_"I've not come for what you hoped to do. I've come for what you did"_ .
I enjoy your video essay. I agreed on several points but i disagreed in others.
To me, this game was very disappointing, but i respect other people like it.
Respect.
Maybe a stupid question, but what’s that quote from? I can’t find it.
@@tr3yjproductions
V from _V for Vendetta_ .
The scene where he kills Delia in her room.
I’ve preordered the game a year ago very early and I haven’t played it yet cuz I have exams how Ironic
Yeh, I hear you. I purchased the game a few days after it's release, but took about a week to start playin' it. Good luck on the exams.
Your exams are doing you a favor
@Adolfthejewbaka _ would you mind reiterating that message in English ?
How is that ironic?
@Adolfthejewbaka _ you must have a sad life
You had predicted the future for Naughty Dog games 2 years ago so Neil wanted to kill off Elena? How I miss Amy so much.
I mean Neil did honour Amy's vision and gave us the best possible ending we could have hoped for. Also Elena not dying has been one of the criticisms uncharted 2 faced citing the fear Naughty Dog at the time had of killing off characters. I personally think Neil is one of if not THE best writers in the industry when it comes to quality of narrative and character interactions. He doesn't fear taking risks and let's not forget he is the one behind the first TLOU
Aaron Joy ist bruce straley bro
I saw Robin’s prior video and I’m wondering what he predicted? He predicted that a story starring a previously established LGBT character would continue to feature that character? That doesn’t exactly sound like going out on a limb. Hope you can clarify what you meant.
Is Amy working on any new projects these days? I really hope so.
@Týr Uncharted Drake's Fortune Writer(s) Amy Hennig Neil Druckmann & Josh Scherr.
Uncharted 2: Among Thieves Writer(s) Amy Hennig Neil Druckmann & Josh Scherr.
Uncharted 4: A Thief's End Writer(s) Amy Hennig Neil Druckmann & Josh Scherr.
Neil didn't do it on his own.
I can't help but feel that if the flashbacks were put in order and the first half of the game were like Nier? the bond of Joel and Ellie being tested, before reaching the "end", only for Joel to die suddenly and tragically, spurring Ellie into vengeance?
I can't help but feel that TLoU2 was already done better in Nier Automata.
Overall the game is certainly well made, but this masquerading for being a masterpiece when its already been done better by a madman in a mask? that I don't agree with.
Druckmann: Who are you?
Taro: I'm you, but better.
Nier Automata does everything better than every other game anyway it's not even a fair comparison.
I think TLoU2 was like Nier in the sense that 2B was killed off by A2 in a similar way as Joel and 9S went on a revenge spree and ended up in utter insanity, similar to what Ellie experienced.
My guess that the game got bashed so hard is probably because Joel has a much bigger fanbase than 2B, and lots of people paid $60 expecting a good portion of Joel, especially because that's what was hinted in the trailers. While I enjoyed the story of TLoU2 a lot and I appreciate the bold attempt in two-way story-telling, I can understand the rage of fans for being betrayed. Hopefully with a bit more time TLoU2 will be able to receive a fair judgement, and quite honestly I hope there would be more multifaceted story-telling like this, minus the trailer bait and the marketing stunt
@@qz9665 It was also paced better and happened all in one game.
To be fair Nier Automata set the bar remarkably high in a lot of regards
I like the game from a gameplay perspective, but I got multiple story issues:
- Death of Joel is not earned. This man is a veteran of that world, a man who went through hell for 24-25 years and knows people and clickers like no other. For him to let his guard down is unreasonable. He wasn’t even the type to save random people to begin with (in the first game, he drives down a wounded person because he’s experienced enough to know that that’s a hunter and in this game he’s going to a stranger’s place. Also, right when the outbreak happens, a guy stands next to the road with his family and asks Tommy to pull over so they can get in and Joel refuses, telling Tommy that their own safety takes priority.) And even then, saving someone is one thing, following them back to their hideout is another. The plot should’ve went with Joel taking the lead in that instant and say something a long the lines of “we’ve been patrolling this area for years, I know a hideout nearby” or “we’ve been patrolling this area for years, I know a shortcut to Jackson from here” etc. He should not immediately trust a new girl who’s suspiciously in the vicinity of Jackson, which they rarely if ever saw. He willingly gives his real name to a bunch of armed strangers, are you kidding me? Joel killed so many people, that he should be aware of his status in the world and not fail the way he did in this game. The writers failed in this regard completely.
- Tommy has plot armor that doesn’t fit their own world and narrative. Don’t know how they thought that Tommy surviving would be believable, but it’s a bad decision nonetheless.
- Ellie “conveniently” leaves her map in the aquarium for Abby to find her. No way Ellie and Tommy would make that mistake, a sharpshooter like Tommy, a veteran making that mistake is impossible. The map was literally by Ellie’s feet and they somehow missed it. Poor writing.
- Jesse bursting through that door like a moron when he should be slowly approaching it or kicking it open whilst moving aside is another dumb choice made by the writers.
- Why Abby decides to spare Dina and Ellie is another case of plot armor that doesn’t make sense. Abby, who witnessed the death of her childhood friend and “ex-boyfriend” Owen, also saw the death of Mel and Manny, decides to listen to Lev and not kill Dina and Ellie. Why? Why are the words of Lev stronger than her feelings for her childhood friend being killed? That’s not conveyed and explained very well. This scene wasn’t convincing either.
- How did a severely wounded Dina (arrow wound, punctured lung) and Ellie (broken arm, severely beaten up) return with Tommy (who required neurosurgery with a bullet in the head) and a dead Jesse to Jackson in 2-3 weeks? They didn’t even have a horse or a vehicle.
- Abby’s plot armor in the fight against Tommy makes no sense. First of all, Tommy is shooting at her constantly, but the moment Abby steps out on the pier, he decides to fight her instead of shoot her in the head. Horrible writing. Another point is how Yara magically pops up when she was waiting a long ways back. Suddenly Yara appears to the rescue. Unbelievable.
- Ellie ends up with nothing. The game is not saying anything. What’s the point in killing everyone except for the main person you set out to kill? Imagine if John Wick didn’t kill the guy who killed his dog and just gave him a pat on the back after killing hundreds of people. How would that make sense? It wouldn’t. Also what’s the point in shocking the player and Ellie for killing a pregnant woman, when she might have killed a hundred women who might’ve been pregnant as well?
- Going after Abby ironically saved Abby, but she came back even worse than before physically and mentally perhaps too since she’s all alone now. At the very least, Abby and Lev find Catalina Island, although uncertain if the Fireflies are actually there and if they are welcoming to Abby and Lev. But hey, there is a hopeful message for them that Ellie doesn’t get. I’m not convinced this was the right portrayal for Ellie either.
- No mention of Marlene, who was kind of a mother to Ellie. Odd choice to say the least.
- Pacing issues galore. The initial story of Ellie already suffers from pacing issues, it takes a long time to get to the end of Day 3 and when we finally do, we have to start all over again. I almost didn’t feel like playing anymore. There are too many combat moments with humans and clickers alike that could’ve been trimmed down. I also think that Ellie Day 1 ending with a screen to black, should’ve switched to Abby Day 1. That momentum would’ve been stronger until we hit the climax at Day 3.
- Don’t have an issue with flashbacks per se, but they were used a bit too much and sometimes at moments where I wish the main plot could continue. I get it, had to be done, but the execution wasn’t always too great. I much rather have a story like RDR 2, where the story only goes forward and we’re not stuck with flashbacks, but the writers here jumbled the plot in a weird way and this is what came out of it.
- The characters aren’t well written nor do we have the time to bond with most of them. I barely felt anything for the death of these characters. Ellie has become a very bland character as well, did not like her either.
I still like the game from a gameplay perspective, I still like the first Last of Us and Left Behind as well, but the second game has too many flaws for me to call this a good game.
No Abby wasn't justified. Her dad pulled a weapon on Joel as he was rescuing Ellie. Her dad deserved what he got and it was a weak reason to make part 2 with.
Naughty Dog should have made you play as Abby FIRST so that people feel that Joel's death was justified. While also having an absolute mindfuck for the fans on launch day.
The point was to make you see that ur enemy also have a point of view... if they dont make her ur enemy first how would that message come across to the player emotinaly... seeing how many hated that part of the game i think they totaly nailed it.
Abby isn't justified at all. She tortured a man for fun infront of his daughter because he defended her against a homicidal surgeon. Literally everything abby does has less moral justification then what joel and ellie have done.
Jessie died because then he's out of the way for Ellie and Dina to play happy families and Tommy survived to take Ellie out of happy families. They could still have made it stick if they really showed how terrible a loss it was for Jessie to not be a father. It just seemed convenient that he's out of the way.
This video claims the fundamental intentions of the story are bad because it expands the backstory of a minor character from the first game, but it doesn't do anything to justify WHY that's bad. Why is it necessary for writers to only expand on characters who already play a major role? If that doctor had been specifically named in the first game would it not be a problem? It's not like the doctor didn't have an important role in the world, he was the lead surgeon for the Fireflies.
That's a pretty nonsense criticism IMO.
Most of this guys criticism of showing the consequences of Joel's most important choice in the original game is utter nonsense. Stop talking about videogames and their unrealistic nature- this is a series that is based so much around being grounded in realism that they named a difficulty mode after it. Its absolutely fitting that Joel's massacre at the hospital ended up having consequences.
Joel paying for what he did is completely unrealistic and a lot of coincidences are needed for that to happen
@@blondeboi2132 it's not unrealistic in the slightest. It's obvious a HUGE target was going to be over his head for what he did. Did people really think there would be no repercussions? Even in our life today that's never going to happen. He committed mass murder of a very well known (and connected) group and was going to reap the consequences one way or another
@@supremeworld87 the butterflies have clear plot armor
TLOU2 was a huge disappointment to be and to be honest, I found your critique a bit disappointing too. I wish you had more to say about the setting, story and gameplay. For example, explored the directions the game could have taken or discussed the role of the infection in this game (which I thought was massively underused). I found scavenging to be repetitive, especially since they added close to nothing new (recipes, melee weapons, etc).
I enjoyed the first 5 or 6 hours of the game, but at a certain point I simply became bored. The plot was too simple, and there were few interactions between the main characters (Ellie's side) to make up for the repetitive gameplay. I agree the game did shine in the flashbacks and in the cutscenes between Ellie and Dina, but those were few and far between. Also, I wasn't a fan of the three day story and would have preferred a longer time span to show more locations - especially in the first half of the game.
In the end, I felt indifference to both Ellie and Abby, and to me that is an indication that the game failed to achieve its goal.
Cheers
Read the title and then ask yourself again on why he didnt expand on gameplay 😐
@@akraman7274 Just because he chose to focus on the story doesn't mean that, as a viewer, I can't feel disappointed by the lack of gameplay analysis. It was meant as constructive feedback.
"What's your name?"
"I'm glad you asked, stranger! My name is Joel Miller, I live at Jackson Camp, owned by brother Tommy and Maria Miller. He was an ex-Firefly and assisted me in my journey to smuggle Ellie Williams, the only known immune human in existence, cross-country from Boston QZ to St. Mary's Hospital in Salt Lake City, where I brutally massacred every Firefly for risking a cure with her guaranteed death. I am almost certain I didn't get all of them, and they're probably out for blood for murdering their leader, Marlene in cold blood. Please, take all my means of self defense, lock the doors, and outnumber us. That's just basic human decency!"
The lesson I learned from Part II? Use aliases, and the Cycle of Violence will literally cease to exist!
Me : I'm going to enjoy this game so much .
Neil : *chuckles*.
You weren't really supposed to enjoy it, it's not trying to make you happy
@@kylepollack3029 That's actually...very true. Never thought about that perspective. I mean seriously now.
@@kylepollack3029 Then... why bother spending 60 bucks?
@@kylepollack3029 Neither was the first one, but oh boy do I relish every moment of that
@@kylepollack3029 Why make videogame if you're not supposed to enjoy it? It's not impossible to make something enjoyable while also telling a dark story that makes the player feel sadness and despair.
I have several issues with this game, but the biggest one is Abby. I hate her with a burning passion. Why? Because she killed a character I feel a deep connection with. That’s it. The way we’re forced to play as her for so much of the game doesn’t help matters. I understand what Naughty Dog was going for, I really do, but it really didn’t work for me. During her sections, I was counting the minutes. I wanted to get back to Ellie because that was the only thing I cared about. And don’t get me started on the part where you have to fight Ellie... That was torture. I was terrified that I was gonna kill her. Thankfully she survived. I hated every single second of Abby’s parts of the game. Ellie’s parts however were amazing, especially the flashbacks. The gameplay is incredibly fun and satisfying. In that area, it’s a masterpiece. Story-wise however...it has problems. I love half of the game and I hate the other half. I can’t help but feel dissapointed. Brilliant video as usual Robin. You never fail to impress me with your words.
I do wish more people would acknowledge or talk about how Naughty Dog completely altered & did a U Turn on Tommy's character in his last scene in the game. He was such a great character in both games, I still love him, even though they ruined him with that last scene of his at the farm. He was initially reluctant to go after Joel's killers in the beginning of the game, he eventually went after them, but left Ellie behind, to protect her. He knew she would still go after them, even after leaving her behind, but he couldn't in good conscience take her along on this suicide mission. At the theatre, when they're planning their route back to Jackson, after killing 7 of the 8, he indicates to Ellie they got revenge on most of them & have to make peace with not getting Abby. So why after all that, after being the voice of reason, would he become obsessed with killing Abby & guilt Ellie into going after her, just a few months later. That ruined his character & made him seem like a dick out of nowhere. That seems to be done just to add drama to the scene & have someone else look like the villain over Ellie going after Abby, again.
It made no sense, was just a forced narrative. If they wanted Tommy to deliver the news of Abby's whereabouts to Ellie, they could have had him go about it in a better way, like him leaving the decision up to Ellie, not guilting her into it. It seems ND just wanted to force narratives & drama in this scene, villainised yet another character from "Team Ellie" that we came to love.
Yeah, Tommy guilt tripping Ellie like that really pissed me off, what a nonsense about face.
Dude tommy was a bastard piece of shit who assoulted and killed innocent people with Joel in order to survive. After coming back from Seattle he lost everithing, his brother, his leg, his eye, and even maria the one person Who probably made him a better human. During the following months the rage for having lost everithing grew inside him and he slowly became more like his past himself, so he went back to Ellie, his only way to accomplish those desires. Tommy's character is written in an incredibly human way, people change dude they never stay the same during the course of their life
Yeah, that caught me off guard
People forgetting it was Ellie's idea to go after Abby. Tommy got shot at the back of the head, lost an eye and can't walk. Jesse died and he also lost his wife cause they went on the revenge mission. How would you react if you saw Ellie living happily in a farm house and didn't want her revenge anymore. Maybe she should have listened to Tommy in the first place and he'd still have two eyes, a wife and can walk. That's why he got angry. In fact it would be weird if he just said "ok that's cool" hugs Ellie and walks away. That really how ppl want it to be? Sorry but life ain't like that.
@@ingamedetails My issue is they went down the extremely cliche route of turning him into the grumpy old uncle who lost everything & now wants someone to go get revenge for him. They didn't have to villainise him. Giving him a great character arc over the 2 games, only to undo it all in the end. They could have had him come to Ellie with the info saying " Hey Ellie, I know I promised you I'd find her, & I have, but it's your choice what you want to do from here on out". This would have been very believable & kept Tommy's character consistent, didn't need to add the drama to it & everything doesn't have to be doom & gloom. Ellie still had the itch for revenge deep down before Tommy got to the farm, she would have gone after Abby going by Tommy's info without him having to guilt her into it.
The linear story telling is fine. However, the atmosphere around these post game discussions doesn't allow the free interpretation of the first one. We should be able to hate and love the characters we want and to agree or disagree with them (and even the writer if we want). Revenge does different things for different people. The game should actually be given a shot before critique of course.
I think, after game 2, everybody IS STILL free to like or hate anyone, freely. I personaly know people that ended up hating ellie, people that ended up hating tommy, people that still didn't liked or justified Joel's action. The game isn't saying how you should fell about anything, it's presenting a complex journey of people all over in a cohesive manner. I ended up liking every single character of this game, for different reasons.
"The game should actually be given a shot before critique of course." Couldn't have said it better unlike some morons who equate to watching let's plays without playing it equals to experiencing it lol
Good intentions, bad execution........ we 10/10 should’ve played Abby first and learn her story and have little moments with Ellie.....once she kills joel, no matter how much i tried to sympathize with her, I just couldn’t. This game is ok but nowhere near the 10/10 people are raving about.
lovethepandainyou at the same time having to play Abby smack in the middle way also painful. I just wanted to finish playing Abby as quickly as I could so I could get back to Ellie’s story and no matter how much the game tries to shoehorn us into liking Abby, I just could never give 2 shits about her character
@@Ffinha The dust seems to have settled now and the discussions I've been seen are more balanced💭🤔. During this fiasco I did *not* see this nuance😂. The blind rage trashing and "You didn't get the game if you still..." comments were just igh😑🤦🏾♂️.
I was like why didn't Robin make a analysis video for this yet 🤔
Then the notification showed up...
Ellie killed Abbys friend who was pregnant, it doesnt matter if it was by "accident", why would Abby be worried about Dina being pregnant when Ellie did the same to her?
Respectfully I have to disagree about Joel's involvement in the story - the whole plot revolves around HIM and HIS actions and how they impacted Ellie, and while it is not direct, the main conflict of the game is about Ellie letting go of Joel and learning to forgive - to forgive Joel for his actions, and through that personal growth, to become able to forgive Abby for hers
22:23 I don't think they're entirely unreasonable. Naughty Dog has in multiple instances had characters like Nate try to save or at least not kill the main villain after they say what amounts to "strike me down and you'll become like me" in games where you are given no choice but to kill hundreds of people. It rings hollow.
That's just not the tonal universe that Uncharted has ever presented to us. It's not only that nameless bad guys get mown down with no weight to it, Nate can do and survive impossible things that should kill any human, encounters supernatural creatures, swear words above the level of "shit" don't exist, and all the characters' reactions to dangerous situations are more flippant than anyone in real life would be. None of those things are bad on their own because that's the style the series has consistently cultivated
@@masongarrod6681 I agree its just when at the climax Nate suddenly gets gun shy with the main villain, it feels out of place to me.
TLOU never really had the "ludonarrative dissonance" problem anyway. You kill to survive in that world and every enemy Joel and Ellie came across in their journey were fucked up and deserved it in one way or another. Joel himself is presented as a flawed character not a righteous one so there was no hypocrisy there no matter how you look at it. That's why I disagree with Robin that Part II was made in response to that criticism Uncharted games get. Part II simply explores the direct consequences of Joel's actions from the first game and its effects on both Ellie and Abby but it doesn't really paint him as a bad guy or a good guy necessarily, and that aspect doesn't dictate how you die in the world of TLOU anyway. Joel is an amazing character in Part II because, as we see in the flashbacks, he became an amazing dad for teenager Ellie no matter how she treated him over the years. And beyond that he seemed like a more responsible person helping the community in Jackson alongside Tommy like going on patrols and whatnot. Compared to the hardened smuggler who didn't care about anyone but himself at the start of the first game, he was finally more at peace with himself in Part II which is exactly what everbody hoped the type of effect Ellie would have on him. The character arc of Joel continuing from the first game in Part II is one of many reasons why I loved this game so much.
Cutter Elf Well articulated.
@@weaverquest yal over analyze a shit story lmfao
One problem that naughty dog give us false trailer. Bait and switch.
so do movies sometimes
I kinda liked that. I didn’t see the leaks lucky and I expected the trailers to lie and I hope most do
They did it on purpose dumbo
@@Sazumaru how profound ..how clever ..you are buying a product stop misleading fans..dumbo
They didn’t want to give anything away, other wise Druckmann might as well have just told us the entire plot. I’m fine with them lying if it means concealing the story of the game
to be honest I didn't enjoy the story at all
No one ever talks about how there is a possibility that the Fireflies could have killed Elli and failed at making a cure. In my mind that may be enough to deny them the right to Kill her
While I disagree with some of your views on the game, I respect your approach and not just blind fanboyism I've seen. Unfortunately for Naughty Dog, after this and Uncharted 4 I'm just not interested in anything they put out in future. Great video though
The problem is that there is not an interesting story behind any of these decisions. We have name brand notoriety = $CASH$ when it comes to business, and on the other hand we have wannabe auteur genius who, rather than actually understanding story telling and how to make it work, decided that his story would be subversive and therefore deep, impactful, and would let his abilities shine; the definition of pretentious. It is a flimsy house of cards. The base is big business ka-ching$ and Druckmann's completely flawed character and understanding, then the next layer is a story completely hung on this "genius, incredible, subversive" idea that a nobody NPC, that meant nothing to the characters or point of the first game's narrative, having a daughter who now wants revenge. This is a completely juvenile approach that I would expect an 8 year old to imagine up playing with his action figures. Anything past these points is also flawed and the whole thing collapses.
"Abbey saves a pregnant woman" ummm she was told she was pregnant and was ready to kill her....:))))
It's like everything she strives to do is always objectively worse lol
@@dalgusmaximus4557 lmao yup
I’m hella late to this party but like if Lev wasn’t there she totally would have killed Dina... and people say she was a changed and redeemed person... ok
@@cocob0l0 yeah exactly.... i don't understand how people get that from that??? i think the whole point of the story is that they're all just shitty cause it's a shitty world? idk lol
@@natashanolan2797 The thing is, the people who love this game pretty much only fault Joel and view HIM as the bad guy, and hell even Ellie too and that Abby is this pure innocent angel. It’s ridiculous
Literally feel nothing for Abby or any of the new characters. Ultimately they failed to effectively put more care into developing characters to rationalize their behavior and decisions. Naughty Dog spent an entire game building up Ellie and Joel's relationship. Starting out as strangers leaving so much room to see this relationship dynamically develop and flourish. If you compare that with Abby's relationship with her father and friendships with other characters like Mel. Told through comparatively brief and sporadic snippets that don't hold a candle to the originals methodical character development
I think it is not neccesary for us to like,hate or relate with abby at all.They are showing her side of the story and how joel fucked up her world.We can always interpret the game based on how we want it to be instead of what it is.
@@kishansharma5119 It's a whole nother story when the writers are desperately trying to demonize Joel and Ellie and make you despise them. Then have you like Abby for some reason. You can literally feel it in the game as you progress.
@@rockybalboa6339 They are making you demonize Ellie and Joel in *Abby's* eyes
I've replayed The Last of Us 7 times.
I never want to replay The Last of Us Part II.
With information given about the fireflies and the vaccine, I think it's interesting that we can actually debate Joel's decision as not purely immoral or selfish. The recording found told how this doctor failed in many experiments. While the test subjects were not immune, the fact that the doctor didn't know where to go makes it all more possible that Ellie's sacrifice would've been for nothing. In TLOU II, Marlene also questions this doctor's ethics in how he won't give Ellie a choice, and when switching Ellie's place with Abby's, the doctor wouldn't do the same, even following the logic he follows.
I thought TLOU II was a 6/10, and this doesn't stem from "it's because Joel died" or "we didn't like Abby." Naughtydog accomplished in making me understand for Joel's motives to save Ellie, and instead of the clearly, or so we think is clear, right decision to make a potential vaccine, even with Joels hardened skin and survivor complex. They didn't do the same for me with making us understand or forgive Abby. Trying something new doesn't always mean it works. They didn't tell it well enough for me, and the fact that some people have to try very hard to see Neil's intent is what tells me Neil and his writers couldn't do this. I am hopeful for TLOU III, because if they succeeded once, I'm sure they can do it again.
Exactly, I respect what they were going for, but they failed to achieve it. I don't hate abbey, I just don't care about her. I wish this wasn't the case, I mean the game is beautiful.
This is exactly why this sequel is bad for. They made Joel the bad guy first thing in order to have a valid story, if I can call it is a story.
I’d agree with 6/10, it’s not bad but nowhere near the first. I could never care about Abby despite the long winded story explaining that she has basically suffered what Ellie had.
They tried to make you feel for Abby yet they show her as an evil and unmerciful character several times with her killing Joel with a begging person behind her. Even after playing as her to make you connect she is ready to murder a pregnant woman. It doesn’t work out well and she doesn’t seem human or relatable. They can’t try to replace the characters that made the franchise for new and unlikable ones.
Gonna say it right now, Nier did what TLOU 1 and II tried to do, but better.
Hell, Laura bailey as Kaine is easily better then her as Abby.
Kainé is awesome. NieR Gestalt makes a revenge story and a violence cycle much better than TLOU 2.
Tlou1 ? How?
If you like doing 3 playthroughs to get the actual message and constantly treading into edgy territory, yeah. Like I love NieR, but it is not better executed as a whole.
@@littlekitsune1 not gonna lie, I find the third playthrough hilarious. Grab the Phoenix Lance and smash every single boss on your way. Popola doesn't even have time to mourn her sister's death.
I just don't feel like this game was written by a someone who has the chops to deliver a dark philosophical reflection of the violence and revenge themes, the way Neil wanted it to be. He just pulls out obvious scenarios, thinking that in order to understand the antagonist, you have to mirror it's circumstances with the main character, like the first draft of a story... besides the manipulative killing of dogs and babies, like..did you know that this character also has a pregnant friend, a beloved father or father-figure that dies, a love triangle with that pregnant friend...you see, she's going through the same struggles, but I'll just jumble them around, so it wouldn't seem obvious.
I would've loved the game if they made us feel Ellie's motivation to kill Abby her "I'm gonna kill every last one of them" kind of rampage but at times it seemed like Ellie was forced to do this as if she is questioning herself and her actions. It really would've demonstrated that Ellie truly lost herself and then regained humanity at the end but they didn't approach it the way they should have.
Exactly. When I played the two fights between Ellie and Abby, I never felt motivated to killing any of them. I just pressed square because it was the only way to continue the story. The moments that the game build so much up to became a complete let down and you wished Abby and Ellie could just make peace instead, as they both knew revenge killing only makes things worse.
I genually expected the two charectors to talk with each other in their last encounter by the boats, but instead I'm left with a bad taste in my mouth as neither of the protagonists found real peace or some form of empathy for each other.
There was not one kill in the game where you felt satisfied. Nobody really deserved to get killed, which was one of the themes of the game, yet it's the only thing you really do throughout the entire story.
The player needs to be motivated and engaged in what ever the game forces them to do, or it should leave decisions to the player instead. This idea of forcing you to kill just to shame you for it while being aware it's wrong is just awful game design and storytelling.
@@frederikandersen8402 lol exactly! Everyone knows killing is wrong but we play games to escape not to waste our money and time on being shamed... what the actual fuck.lol if anything they should feel shame for stealing our money and time.lol
@@frederikandersen8402 The fact that the player is hesitant during those moments is the entire point, you've seen both sides of the story so you no longer have the same motivation that Ellie does. The idea that the game hypocritically "shames" you is completely inane, it's difficult to express how fucking dumb of a take that is.
@@telltellyn my point is: the game tells you killing someone is wrong. Then it forces you to kill that person (instead of making it an option). Then the game revolves around how dumb it was to kill said person.
In an RPG with multi options it makes sense to punish the player is they pick the wrong dialogue option, but in TLOU 2 you can't immerse yourself into the charectors motivation because you know it's essentially the "wrong dialoge option" you are choosing all the time forcefully.
I get that the theme is that revenge is pointless. But that doesn't mean I think it makes for a good game. Maybe it could, but it wasn't executed well.
Maybe if you only realised in the end that the choices were bad instead of making it the main theme throughout the game it would work better.
The same way TLOU 1 only makes you realize that Joel might be the bad guy in the end of the game instead of showing you in the beginning.
You might think my opinion is "fucking dumb" but you can at least present your own opinion on the game instead of talking shit like a 9 year old fanboy. Bruh
@@frederikandersen8402 The game was about trauma and obsession, not “killing people is bad”. Violence is necessary in the world of TLOU, every single person has to use violence to get from A to B. The game doesn’t preach against that necessity, it’s just the reality of that world. What the game explored was a character suffering from trauma and becoming obsessed with thinking vengeance was the only way to heal. Her rage broke down until it was closer to an addiction than anything.
I fundamentally disagree with the idea that if a game doesn’t give you a choice that you MUST agree with the character’s decisions. I think that limits the entire medium like no other medium is limited. There were a bunch of times in the game I felt differently to Ellie in a situation (like people may have felt with Joel at the end of TLOU), but for me that only added tension, a similar experience to watching Breaking Bad. If you watched that show, did you ever feel frustrated with Walter or Jessie’s decisions? What about ASOIAF, where the major theme is anti-war, and yet every character partakes in acts of war? Watching a character you love do something you disagree with is a very common part of fiction, it’s how an audience is challenged to think rather than just passively cheer on a hero. I can’t help but feel like gamers responded so badly to it because they’re so accustomed to nothing but power fantasies.
I’ve heard a lot of people say they wished Ellie killed Abby. Meanwhile I’ve heard a lot of other people describe how painful it was watching them fight because they DIDN’T want Ellie to kill Abby. Clearly the game was not just black and white with how it portrayed its characters.
There’s nothing wrong with saying it didn’t work for you, that’s completely subjective. What I find dumb is calling it “awful game design and storytelling”. There is nothing inherently bad about challenging the audience to question and disagree with the protagonist. That is at the core of many of the greatest works out there. As someone studying design, I just hate people acting like video games aren’t allowed to do it.
A big problem for me was the timeline. I feel like if the events, including the flashbacks were presented in chronological order, with you switching in between Abby and Ellie every Seattle day would have worked better. It felt to me like the game was trying to shame me for wanting revenge against Abby for killing Joel and Ellie killing Abby's friends by humanizing Abby's group later in the game. This didn't work for me though, trying to make me fell bad for killing someone that I was suppose to dislike hours later when Im focusing on something else just doesn't work. If the game had been in order, I would have felt real conflict of interest in the moment, understanding Abby's group's intentions and getting to know them better before I kill many of them, not long after.
You end up hating Abby for most of the time you’re playing as her. I still don’t understand why they did that.
That's most people basically with a negative or split opinion. The pacing and the order of events. This is objectively identifiable as bad or poorly executed. But then you have people of the other spectrum that cannot compute this, add a slight antipathy for Joel or his "decision" and there you go, the situation at hand....
@@brodude7194 How is it objective whether or not it would have been better chronologically or with the time skip in the middle? I think I would have liked it less had they been side by side, and the impact of suddenly finding yourself in the shoes of a character you hate and grow to appreciate would have been diminished.
Bryce Hampton I think it makes perfect sense. Ellie doesn't see Abby and her friends as anything but murderes, and neither do you in the begging of the game, as you have only seen Ellie's side of things. As Robin mentioned, you, as a player, are used to killing hundrets of enemies, who are almost always flat, and you aren't supposed to feel guilt for them. But later exposing Abby and her friends' backstory and relationships makes you (or is supposed to make you) realise that there are always two sides of the story, and every person you kill has their own motives and reasons for wanting to hurt/kill you.
I think it's a lame theme to explore, since it almost goes against what the first game did, where you didn't see your enemies as more than enemies (except Marlene). In Part 2 this is all it's about. The ironic thing is how Abby is supposed to be the one understanding this principle, as she also ends up killing lots of her WLF friends just to save ONE kid. The only reason the story is like that is to put focus on Abby developing as a charectors as she realizes that Scars are more than just enemies. Abby does the same thing as Joel did, killing everything around her because of her affection for a child. The only difference is that Abbys reasons for being this affectionate for Liv is almost non-existent, where as Joel has such an understandable reason for saving Ellie. It's ironic and plain unrealistic.
It’s the whole reason the story is later out that way, you are supposed to realise that neither woman is morally right here: both have suffered the same tragedies and are willing to do whatever it takes for revenge. I believe the game tunnelled too hard into making us like Abby as much as Ellie when I just didn’t really care about her character and just wanted her story to be over
I hate admitting when I’m wrong but I ended up loving TLOU2 by the end. I saw the leaks before and was as mad as everyone else but playing through it changed my mind.
Tlou part 2
sucked and didn’t had the same impact as the first one they could’ve made the series an anthology going forward with a new cast and characters
That would be literally all of Abby's appearances in TLOU2 but without Ellie, Joel or other returning chars. Anthology is a stupid idea anyway.
Tlou2 did not suck u saying it doesn't mean it's true the game had some amazing stuff in it ua-cam.com/video/UJ-Ly__HBJg/v-deo.html
dj king the gameplay was good but the story was garbage 6/10
Ellie’s rejection of Joel was reaching in my opinion. That she would prize the abstract notion of her life “meaning something” by being a possible cure over the actual fatherly love of Joel makes her pretty cold and soulless. I never misunderstood what Naughty Dog was trying to do. I just think it was executed poorly. If the handling of this game and it’s marketing are any indication of the future of Naughty Dog, they will never again be as great as they once were. There are game developers who know how to subvert expectations and still give their customers a wholly satisfying experience, and ultimately, Naughty Dog will lose customers to developers that don’t bite the hand that feeds them. Naughty Dog is perfectly free to make the game they want, but they will inevitably reap the fruits of those decisions. It’s a shame that Druckmann picked such a mediocre story as the hill Naughty Dog wants to die on.
Well said.
Exactly. They could have sold so many copies on PS5 with a remastered version. But sadly we're left with this dog turd.
You can pretend this is somehow the end of Naughty Dog, but the game sold extremely well 🤷
@@jerrodshack7610sales don’t tell the whole story. Sales only prove how much people love the franchise; it isn’t evidence that the game itself is good.
It’s been three years since you made this comment. How do you think Naughty Dog is doing? Are they popular as they once were? I heard they were laying people off.
Abby want's to kill pregnent woman despite knowing what she is about to do - someone else stops her.
Ellie kills pregnent woman and when she finds out she loses her mind and is grossed out from what horrible act she has done.
Abby kills wothout mercy or second thought - killing people is way easier for her than for Ellie.
Ellie kills because she has to cut her loose ends and kills are having heavy impact on her.
Ellie has to kill dogs in combat, once she is in danger.
Abby is and does evil without big enough justification or remorse. Ellie does awful things and carries the wheight of her crimes. That's why she broke at the end and could not kill Abby.
Well I put myself in Abby’s shoes when I played it. Abby didn’t know Ellie didn’t know Mel was pregnant she thought that Ellie killed her in cold blood. So it made sense to me that she would be so ready to kill Dina even though she knew she was pregnant.
Not evil with no justification, just extremely little. She was only going to kill Dina because she felt guilty about what she did to Mel and Owen before they died, and how she never got to make true amends, the same reason Ellie went on the whole quest to begin with, it was just a micro moment of that because Abby knew she was in the wrong and almost let her emotions get the better of her, something she's done her entire life and it led to all of her friends dying.
Abby thought Ellie killed Mel knowing she's pregnant so she was gonna do the same to Dina, and the main purpose of the game, I think, is to showcase how nobody in this world is right or wrong, it's about survival.
Abby wants to kill a pregnant woman because Ellie KILLED a pregnant woman. And she is doing a mistake. The same mistake she did when she killed Joel. Blind revenge, the same blind revenge that bring Ellie to kill Nora, Mel and Owen. It's so obvious. Ellie didn't manage that situation and she is totally responsable of Mel's death. She has remorse because obviously she is not a monster, but a shape of grey like all the others characters.
Abby doesn't have a single motivation to feel remorse for what she did to Joel. Joel is a MONSTER to her.
my experience when i play this game is like i was about to marry my girlfriend that i've known for a long time but then suddenly i was force to marry a different person
And then someone would come along and start talking sh*t about your girlfriend, while at the same time praising this new person. This new person is just amazing. Oh and also, this new person is a sadistic psychopath, and also trans. Also, if you don't like her you're a bigot.
"No heroes or villains truly exist." The Nier and Drakengard franchises do a much better job.
Idk about Drakengard.
@@Supre3m3Kai At least Drakengard 3 does that better, while I personally don't even like Yoko Taro antics of bolstering edginess lol
While I love both Drakengard and NieR, they are a bit too tryhard with it and go into edgy territory. Also Drakengard 1 just has the protagonists literally be sociopaths, so I'm not sure about that moral there. NieR Gestalt is closer but doesn't actually bother with the message unless you're willing to do multiple playthroughs.
This video basically summarizes why naughty dog isn't getting my money.
I wonder if everyone realizes that if they ever make a lou3 its gonna be even worse because you are gonna be playing as abby right?
I just gotta poke a hole in one of your things that you say, when you say "if every person you killed's family came after you you'd have everyone after you" but those hunters you kill don't know who you are you just came across them, but the at the hospital they know who you are and what you did.
Also it did happen in the first game as well, with David's group. This whole sequel felt like an expansion of that concept. Owen also brought up in his conversation with Abby on the boat that most people seem to have given up on the whole revenge thing because of how common killing and loss is. He mocked her asking if he should go find the ones who killed his parents as well. I think the main difference with Abby is she had detailed info on who did it compared to other people's situations.
Let's not forget that Abby's dad was not just some random doctor, he was THE doctor who could find a vaccine against cordyceps.
@@fernandonunez2741 he was literally a random NPC. They even changed his name and race lol.
@@GrigRP Do you base your " changed his race" on that misleading screenshot that looks edited that's been circulating? Coz last time I played the first game, he wasn't black or Hispanic, but white. Look for videos, play it yourself. Was he a random character? In the context of the first game, it was obvious he was the main doctor in that room, the one performing the surgery. That they decided to expand his role in the second game is something else.
@@fernandonunez2741 just played it it's definitively not white... And Hispanics can be white...
The story is such a waste of time and they should be ashamed that we waited 7 years for this piece of garbage.
I wonder why people are okay with the whole trailer situation when it's movies but games are a no go? I mean hulk in the infinity war trailer, Thor in the endgame trailer. People are weirdly forgetting to be consistent with their opinions and what and how they are okay with something.
Yeah. That's honestly weird.
But it still isn't right, don't do it in movies or games please. Just be honest about what you're going for, omitting information is fine, misleading isn't. Hope ND understands that now.
@@yasharora1228 see I can disagree with you on this. But I think that you are correct that if we want it to be done in one form of media then we need to be consistent about it. People cheer and love the fat Thor thing in endgame, and im sure there's a pretty big overlap between the fans of that with gaming, but now those same people raise their pitchforks. It baffles me, now I am of the opinion that the element of surprise is worth the deception of the lead up.
But I see your point as well and I could be okay with either honestly, I'd just avoid the trailers and hype if people shift to the position of yours.
Hey look a civil manner to disagree with someone? People please take notes!
@@eiriyuki19 Yeah. You're right that they need to be consistent. Now that I think about you mentioning Thor in Endgame, makes sense. I get what you mean, and no, I don't think I even said that for myself above. I also, at the end of the day, don't really care about what happened in the trailers. And I completely disagree with people who think that it was a cash grabbing move, because it really wasn't. They would've just kept Joel in the whole game, and made a story around that if it was about money.
ND is getting a lot of hate for nothing. I'm really heartbroken over the hate messages that they're getting honestly. Just even the idea annoys me a lot. It's okay to not like something over any reason, be it whatever, but what's saddening is that people continuously forget their manners, that is even if they have some.
This whole thing has just turned into a huge mess, and people are being little kids about it.
Even though i love the game this is by far the best analysis i've seen of the game
I think this is the best formed analysis of people who didnt like the game. That ultimately the road ND will be bringing us down in their games will be their own, and independent of the playerbases expectations. To some this is perfectly fine, to others this is deal breaking. It's a bold choice, and one in which one can only assume they are aware the implications. For that single reason I respect it even more...and to me it has added, not detracted from the value of the messages they teach us.
@@lockekappa500 I'm quite happy that they're going to be doing whatever they want now because it means we'll get to see a lot more unique stories from them. I just hope that their next game is a new IP in a genre or setting they haven't tackled before so we can get some kick ass gameplay scenarios from them.
Watch GF reviews!!