Why Magic Systems don't feel Magical
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- Опубліковано 30 тра 2023
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What even is a "magic system"? It's a word that gets tossed around a lot in the fantasy-writing and worldbuilding communities. It certainly has its uses, but there seems to be something much deeper at play, here. Something that questions the very nature of "magic" itself.
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I think the "It's not magic, it's waterbending" moment is another good example. Water bending is magical to Sokka, but reality to Katara.
And the reason Ty-Li Iron finger technique is "disturbing" is she can temporarily break the body's chi's connection to the element's "spirit" which is felt physically and mentally which is why Katara was afraid of Ty-Li for a while
I misread that as "it's not magic, it's waterboarding" which is a little different, lol.
@@Umlee-Kerymansrivarrwaelthat’s CIA magic. Lol.
The Force is magic to some but just a higher understanding of reality to others
@@Umlee-Kerymansrivarrwael "it's not waterboarding, they're enhanced interrogation techniques!"
To quote Clarke, "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
To quote Niven, "Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
And to quote Pratchett, "It doesn't stop being magic just because you know how it works."
Who among us apply this logic to smart phones?
@Mitchell Zollinger my father used to apply this to a chess program. To him it was intelligent, to me it was dumb but could beat you with knowing the moves.
The Pratchett quote reminds me of a House m.d. chapter where he treats a stage magician. The magician is a true believer in the art -something along the line of "reality is misery and only deceit is wonderful"- and has a discusion with House; House ends the discusion saying something like "if revealing the trick destroys it's marvel, maybe it wasn't marvelous to begin with"
I guess the only one missing is "It doesn't stop being technology because you don't know how it works."
And to quote Benford: "Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced."
This is kinda why I love adventure times magic, it just does. It never gets explained, heck it even gets an entire episode dedicated to how there’s no science behind it, it’s great.
i mean there is a hard elemental system in AT
@@ussinussinongawd516 yeah but that’s like the one exception, and it’s still sort of vague cause it’s just “you’re born as one of the four elements and you can create a supply of that element, the end.” Not like a super in depth system.
Which episode do you mean? I’m thinking of the one in which Princess Bubblegum keeps calling out how different “spells” work and demanding information from the vendor before buying a potion, etc, ultimately saying wizards are ridiculous and only call their craft magic because they don’t really know what they’re doing.
I find this comment funny because I was about to say how Adventure Time does... the opposite. Well, that is from Princess Bubblegum perspective, as she literally explains this very video in one episode. She says that magic is just what lazy people call science. And even when Jake the "magic" dog asks her what he is and how he can do what he does, she says "you're a mutant" which he can't refute. xD
@@InvaderZim897 yeah that episode
Galadriel can kinda break your mind if you start thinking about how old she is. She has literally met the entities that shaped the world, she personally witnessed the first Sunrise, she's known Elrond since he was a child...I mean, she's older than Men and Dwarves _existing._
Yes with Men, no with Dwarves; the Dwarves already had built cities under the blue mountains as the Eldar were crossing Ered Luin into Beleriand during their journey west.
Which was before the birth of Galadriel, as she was born in Valinor.
@@skyrimguy217 Ok, so she's slightly younger than Durin I. "Born during Durin I's lifetime" is still an impressive marker of ancientness.
Just don’t watch Rings of Power 😅
That's as mind blowing as knowing the real-life Appalachian mountains are older than the existence of bones.
Full Metal Alchemist embraces this video's message pretty well I feel.
Alchemy is just a form of science, no matter how magical it seems to the uninitiated. When Ed and Al were in Reole, watching Father Cornello perform miracles for a crowd, they saw alchemy that broke the rules, theorizing that it was done with a Philosopher's Stone, while the crowd saw divine will of their god.
I never had a time in FMA when I felt alchemy wasn't magic
@matthhiasbrownanonionchopp3471 yea even the characters start to address this with the knowledge of how alchemy tends to screw with the perception of those who use it. Kimbly being of notable example. Becouse the knowledge of the system doesn't take away the cost of the system itself. One can't unlearn the truth.
Read witch hat atelier, it has one of the best magic systems by far
FMA was great because it married both soft and hard magic. It was firm and structured on the surface, but when you broke past that and learned about the nature of alchemy itself, it became softer and more esoteric. Equivalent exchange, or even the implication of it is fine and all, and you see it working 95% of the time, but when it breaks down because you're talking to the locus of alchemy itself and you have to *convince* it that something is equivalent? Well all the rules basically go out the window.
@seraf8297 so what you're saying is that alchemy really runs on a bartering system.
Let me just say, the animation at the beginning of your robot character grabbing that book and opening it is one of the smoothest things I've ever seen, and your voice is so soft, i bet if you read a sad story id be 10x more likely to cry to it
Yep, i teared up when you started explaining the perspective of the kid for the rabbit,..it made me think of my childhood, you have what it takes sir
That was a really good animation. I wasn't expecting it and was pleased to see it.
It gives off a Certain vibe I don't know what it's called but I really like it
Although I still miss the old intro, i completely agree.
My first immediate thought was how lightningbending in Avatar went from being an incredibly rare and powerful ability that only the most elite of firebenders can actually tap into in TLA to being a well-understood method of providing electricity to Republic City.
I think it works because of electricity in our bodies. Same with metalbending. You just need to feel some electricity in your body to make more electricity and do lightning. If earthbenders can do it with little pieces of metal in earth, why lightingbendera can't?
@@doreew I mean, firebenders make fire out of their own chi. I'm sure that it's just the same for lightning too, just a different technique of creating the energy from the chi.
Yeah, because the writers of Legend of Korra had no originality and suck at their job
@@tubeguy4066 what are you basing that on?
@@tubeguy4066 thousands year ago people don't know math or physics but now we do. Why firebenders can't learn lightning?
I think age/experience of the reader is a huge factor in this. I noticed that as an adult, I'm not able to simply read a story about a boy with magic without expecting the book to explain how it functions. I've also read a whole lot of fantasy books now, for better or worse I've become more picky and harder to please.
I think it depends on how its being used. I recently started reading some Battletech fiction and there's a moment of magic where a character makes his mech just vanish from sensors. This is expressly something the pilot is doing, not a piece of technology, and can be learned by others through a form of enlightenment. It is Never explained, and that's what I liked about it. It was just this piece of magic that was wholly unexplainable, and you just had to accept it was a thing. If they explained it with brain waves or manipulating something with the controls of the 'Mech I would've hated it.
@@SendarSlayer That sounds exactly the the "serene state of mind" characters get in a Gundam anime. Interesting.
I find myself questioning magic systems in shows as an adult because I want to think about hypotheticals, try to solve problems the characters are facing on my own, and make predictions. Magic systems that feel like they’re missing some clear definitions have made watching some shows impossible because of how frustrating it can be to watch characters struggle with a problem because the writers forgot that they have way more tools than the one tool that they wanted the characters to use
Interesting, I'm exactly the opposite: systems, rules, and laws get boring really fast for me, but mysterious, omitted logic and reality denying events is what I love most
@@SendarSlayerI would hate that personally, cheapens the story if the character can just suddenly teleport out of danger with no explanation how.
Yeah the irony of a great magic system is that if they're written well enough, the mere notion of even calling it magic feels weird. Bending in Avatar the Last Airbender is probably one of the best examples of this. It feels weird to even call Bending a magic system because of how well understood its rules and limitations are and well incorporated it is into the world. Everything about it is so well realized that it just feels natural like the laws of physics. I think they even literally call this out in the first episode with Sokka calling Katara's bending "Magic" and her scoffing at the idea.
And I mean it makes sense. We only call things magic or miracles in the real world because of that gap in understanding like you said. Whereas if we existed in a world where people could just learn to levitate rocks with their mind, and we understood the process behind that, then we would almost certainly classify it and understand it more thoroughly and it wouldn't be supernatural anymore. It would be merely... natural. Just like how at one point people may have thought Magnets to be magical, but even if they didn't know the exact reasons why they worked the way they did, the fact that their effects were consistent and understandable was enough for us to learn how to exploit them and use their effects to our advantage, and thus they became a tool that we no longer think of as magic.
I honestly don't know if magic comes from a lack of understanding.
Yes, sometimes people call mundane things "magic" when they don't know the process behind it, but it betrays a lack of understanding of WHY people feel compelled to think something is breaking the laws of the known world.
It kinda takes for granted that people are just too thick to understand that ghosts aren't real and doesn't consider that ghosts may be a thing because they FEEL like they should be. We experience life through our own consciousness and cannot really conceptualize the thought of nonexistence; we can think about what it means, but we can't imagine it because we wouldn't be there, our brains aren't made for that kind of thought and THAT is where magic resides.
Pretty much no matter where you look, people have the concept of ghosts and spirits because they feel necessary for how we experience the world. It's not that people put God in the gaps of understanding it's that they put God in things that feel important to our experience.
The sunset is just light reflecting through the atmosphere but that's not how it feels, it feels big, and overwhelming, it feels ephimeral, and transitional, it's the precedence to night and all that it carries... and thus it is supernatural, because it goes beyond the natural.
Sure, the sea is just one big ol' pond, but it's so BIG it just has to be important somehow, it has to be the home of an angry god, his horses trampling the shore and the houses on it.
In that way, magic is not "technology we don't understand" but rather, what makes the world make sense.
The future is important to us, there HAS to be a way to see it, there HAS to be a prophecy somewhere telling us about it. If there isn't, then the world makes a little less sense.
So it's not really about the understanding of the readers, but more about the understanding of the characters in their world setting.
All science is magic if you don't understand it. Something is only magic if it requires going against the natural laws of physics in the respective universe.
@@guitarlover1204 To add to your point that everybody is just going to enthusiastically look past, unfortunately, magicians in the past were all seen at knowledgeable people. Whether they got it from study, arcane intuition, gifts from gods, or bought them from demons. They were so seen as applying some rules of reality that are a little quirkier than the mundane. Heck, magic was often just seen as a part of life for many. Everybody needed wards against evil spirits whether they were a magician or not. Demons, faeries, monsters, djinn? Those are real things to people. Those explained disease, missing children, that neighbor you hated getting money while your crops fail.
And it wasn't just because they broke the laws of physics. There was literally always someone who would have all the information on how these creatures worked. Everybody's grandma had the remedy to their powers or just the power to detect them. Magic quite literally was a part of everyday life for countless people, even today.
That's why stories like Hunter X Hunter, Naruto, One Peice and Yu Yu Hakusho do so well, they know better than to just call things magic and make sure that its versitile enough that the same "spell" can be extremely different depending on its user.
It's why I love Fullmetal Alchemist, from it's start, it's just defined as another system of science, not magic, so it makes the world feel so much more relatable imo
Hard magic systems like that are awesome.
And then it’s revealed you can break the rules if you can use the power of a philosopher's stone. Thus making it magical again.
@@intergalactic92um actually, the philosopher stone consists of several sacrificed human souls.
So i think the rule of equivalent exchange ( the magic of FMAB ) its not broken but bypassed by sacrifacing human souls exchanged for power. What is a human souls if not valuable
@@intergalactic92 it's always magic lol
@@intergalactic92 but the stone still follows the rules.
"What would be the the value of a human soul?" Apparently, making matter out of it. It still follows the rules of Equivalent Exchange.
This is why I love how magic works in the world of the witcher, you get a sense that there's some fundamentals to it, but we never really learn those, and even still, there are stuff like curses which work very differently from spell casting, and even geralt struggles with figuring them out
Yeah I think a huge reason that works is because of how magic became a thing in their world. It’s not something native to the world and the main people who gained access to magic were women who were quickly treated as hostile and were hunted so of course most knowledge of magic/sorcery is hidden or not explained. But at the same time there has been like 1,500 years of time with magic so there are a decent amount of accounts of its usage but not enough to be broad knowledge.
I've tried to make a magic system as complex and interesting as Brandon Sanderson's but he truly has a gift for that stuff. Amazing writer, I love the mistborn series.
I tried to read his books but I always get a migraine after 1 to 1 and a half chapters. It is not like it's hard to read or anything like that and no other books have given me migraines when I read them. I tried different books he has written and it always happens. I wanted to read the Wheel of time he finished for Robert Jordan but I get a migraine every now and then also making it very difficult to enjoy. Great writer I am sure but gives me a headache
@@lostboy8084 Listen to the audiobooks then. It's 100%, 1000% worth it
@@lostboy8084Sanderson only co-wrote the last three. Some of that writing is obviously his (Mat povs) but most of it is difficult to tell. Some of it IS Jordan's and besides the final scene which was explicitly reported as his, I'd challenge you to tell me when it's Brandon writing and when it's Robert.
Making full magic systems like he does is definitely very tough.
Just do it, its very easy:
Take a power concept, make a table-diagram with a docen variants of it, and establish half the rules as a guide.
Write your story, bending the rules to your convenience.
Dont forget to justify everything retroactively, as if it wasn't all invent bullshit... and done.
I just had this thought: this might be the reason or at least on of the reasons why the 'there used to be much more powerful magic but it got lost' is such a often used trope. It is a way to make unexplainable, magical things available even in a universe where everything else is very defined and sciency
That was a good idea. The loss of ancient knowledge is so mysterious to us that it is borderline magical. How was that ancient structure made? Who made it, was it us, was it aliens, was it another super advanced civilization? What purpose did it serve? You look at it and you know it is a building, because you have seen countless other buildings, and it still defies all reason. It makes you feel uncomfortable even.
How about this as a subversion: We used to have this ancient and wonderful magic that was super powerful and all that. Now we don't... because we figured out how it works, and now we just call it technology. It's not the magic that went away, it's just out wonder that got lost.
Yeah just like how roman concrete was is stronger than modern concrete even though it’s ancient. ( although of course that was also disproven later but during the time it felt magical)
And why that is the case has only recently been discovered.
It’s still science but it was long time lost science which brought a feeling of magic to something old that can still “surpass” the modern.
Plus the fact that it get’s stronger over time.
@@uc22_swo1p The problem with the example of Roman concrete is that... it isn't stronger.
The way we use concrete now, roman concrete would be utterly unsuitable. You cant have something dependent on salt water, when modern designs require steel and metals that would be completely destroyed by salt water's incorporation.
Roman roads stood for centuries while modern roads degrade in only a handful of years... because they didn't have 2 ton rubber tired machines traveling across them by the thousands at 40 miles an hour all day every day.
Its a pretty common case that comes up. We look back at some mythologized thing we don't understand, attribute some grand capability to it. Then when we do understand it, we realize it is, in practice, inferior to what we have already made.
@@KingFate20 I love this.
Completely destroys this trope. (I don't like the trope)
personally, i think what makes things feel "magical" is when the system is built around ideas/concepts/meaning instead of mechanics/physics/abilities. they need to function on a sort of poetic/dreamlike logic, but not in a way that shows the hand of the author like "just do whatever you want idk it doesn't matter"
This is why I quite like the magic in ASOIAF. Its practitioners each know only a sliver of its true extent and every miracle represents a massive change in the setting, just as it is for the people who witness it.
The first and second books of the Wheel of time do this very well. Later in the series it gets more systemized but in the beginning we and the main characters don't know what's going on with the magic.
Example: At one point a character is leading a charge into battle but then slowly finds the world around him fading into fog until both forces disappear from sight but he can still "feel" them sorta. He then has a swordfight with his enemy's leader in this fog world which somehow corresponds to how the fight below is going. If one of them lands a strike, their army below takes a blow from the other as well. It makes a wierd sort of sense but there is no concept of "why." Its just how the magic works...
So what would happen in group magic where half the group thinks fireball and the other half thinks fire bolt. Would it be totally unexplainable? Would it activate both at weaker levels? Or would it just fail? Genuinely curious.
That second logic you propose still has its problems though, it's basically the type of "magic" used in battle animes, where your "feelings" gives you power as the power itself comes from the soul/mind/willpower/whatever, so ultimately it can devolve into a "just do whatever you want" because if a certain character truly *feels* what he or she can do, then it happens because the very logic of the magic system allows it to happen.
@@qq-wy7zs Bro the Wheel of Time is the absolute GOAT
I love witch hat Atelier cause even though the magic is explained and has a very grounded system, it still feels magical. I think it’s due to how magic is also an allegory to art, or at least the author could relate it to art, and you can see how magical it feels through its method and crafting, it’s treated like an art, not just a science
It feels magically because some pretty wild shit goes on and you're left wondering "now what in the hell would they've had to drawn to make that happen?"
Yeah this reply is late but I also wanna mention how the MC also helps us feel the magical wonder despite the system☺️ her reactions are kinda infectious
Man I gotta read this manga but I just have so much in my backlog
I also feel like this is a wonderful alagory for the natural wonder and beauty of the world. Magic being something you understand is to me what lightening is the the modern man, just because we know WHAT a bolt of lightening is. Dosent mean that the power, fear and awe of one striking by you dosent exist. Just because aliens didn't create the pyramids dosent make them awe inspiring monuments to creation.
i like to refer to horror whenever i write fantasy because i enjoy it when something supernatural is minimally explained. once the horror is understood, it can lose its fear factor, just like magic can lose its sense of wonder if it’s overexplained or has convoluted mechanics.
Jujutsu Kaisen sweating bullets right now
Same as mystery, which is a cousin tone to sense of wonder.
and yet, logically, it is inevitable that in any world in which magic as presented in most fantasy works of fiction exists: the inhabitants WILL attempt to understand it. BECAUSE of that fact that for magic to work it would have to be woven into the very fabric of their universe it would HAVE to logically follow a set of rules. the conceptual idea of the sense of magical wonderment from discovering something new that you dont understand is nice and all.. but trying to make an an etire world that runs off of that wouldnt make a lot of sense long term. 😅
Nah I would say is the opposite, you lose interest when it's poorly explained or you know no information about it.
@@rodgerakiki2207JJK has a power system not a magic one.
I feel the opposite
I understand pretty well how a microwave oven works, and I use them often without thinking
But every time I stop and actually ponder it, it feels magical to me
I feel this way about a lot of technology, when you actually understand how it works on a fundamental level, especially if it's something complex, it becomes amazing and wondrous
Things are magical when you don't understand them, and they are magical when you understand them in great detail, it is only that area in between, when you know enough to accept it at face value but not enough to see the feats necessary for it to work, where the magic is lost
That is awesome
Gravity is pure magic. *How does* it work? Nobody really even knows. Waves, maybe? We just generally know *how* it works and go from there without any true understanding the underlying source.
thats is an emotion called awe
To the magician, the audience's reaction is magic. The misdirection and surprise is the magic. I know this all too well. My dad is a magician, so was my mother's father.
Damn, the chosen one's just straight up hanging around in Tale Foundry's comment section
@@NobodyTelevision I think they're talking about stage magic XD
Magick is about unknown once you explain it is stopes to be magick
I was coming here to share that same sentiment.
On a related note, I studied biology at University, I even have a BSc in the subject, but I still see life as magic. I may know about all the technical things that allow it to be, but being there for the birth of a new life is witnessing magic. I may know that there are ways of saving lives of creatures on the edge of death, but when we pull it off, that's magic. Seeing something that's grown up while remembering how small it once was, magic again. Magic is where you find it.
I'm sorry to tell you but your ancestor might be a WITCH!
In a beautiful moment I had in my D&D campaign, I pulled a REALLY cool quote. "Casting a spell is easy. Creating magic is difficult because magic happens when the known meets the unknown."
"Remember my sons, vocal components can be whatever you want."
Your quote is actually pretty cool though
The novel I’m currently writing has two separate systems of magic- a music based hard magic system used by the sirens and a soft emotion driven one that’s more similar to the force in early Star Wars. I’m finding that it’s really nice to get to have the best of both worlds so that different characters end up with different experiences with magic entirely and ensuring there’s always an unpredictable element to the world.
Sounds refreshing
Both literally seem to be hard magic. You just explained it is ruled by emotion.
@@MrRenanHappy maybe definition of soft magic is different for different people. For me,(and probably original commenter) soft magic is when the rules for the magic is not set in stone and is often vague. In this case might mean that getting angry or sad doesnt dictate what will happen (earthquake, fire, levitation) but only says that something magical might happen, whatever it might be. There's also no guarantee any magic will happen, hence why its... soft magic
@@asgacc8789 yes, exactly this. The hard magic system based on music is very much like (arpeggios+triplets)120 bpm= 6 thrown bolts of fire whereas the emotions one is simply that strong emotion can create a magical effect that’s related to the emotion (so like if you miss your best friend who’s in Paris you might be able to send a magical message or teleport there but you also might just summon a baguette) and there aren’t rules you can learn to make that unpredictability go away you can just learn to focus it and maybe to prevent yourself from casting on accident.
Cool! I want to see more systems based on sounds like the dwemeri Tonal Architecture from elder scrolls series
An interesting thing in Brandon Sanderson’s books is that the characters typically don’t see what they can do as “magic”. To them it’s just a natural part of the world like electricity or gravity. It’s only when someone from another world shows up that has access to abilities they’ve never seen before that they consider something “magical”
Travel back in time to the medieval era with a cellphone and a apache helicopter and you will be considered a god
@@carso1500 Basically what happened to the isolated island that starts worshipping the supply helicopter
Stormlights actually very cool with this. Magic is represented as mystical to characters who do not know what they are doing, and science and technique to those that do. As they learn magic, it becomes less mystical and this change in perspective helps subtly change the story to fit the increasingly capable characters.
So things like shards are always portrayed pretty much as normal shit, since everyone knows how shards work.
Its why I felt Way of Kings opening with Sseths assassination of Gavilar as a huge drawback for the book. Really bad to immediately clearly define Lashings when later characters using them are supposed to be lost and confused, causing an awkward disconnect of the reader and character.
@@weedweeb9211 then run out of fuel fairly quick.
@@fearedjames The one funny thing about the duality between "invested arts are magic" vs "invested arts are science" in Brandon's Cosmere is that when "mentors" impart "wisdom" upon protagonists, they don't do it like stereotypical fantasy wizened old men, but like budget Richard Feynmans.
Like, you know the scene from Rhythm of War when Kaladin went to Zahel for advice, and Zahel basically gave him a physics lesson? I'd hate it if all fantasy was like that, but *someone* doing it is nice.
I think the best way for magic to feel both consistent and magical is to keep any particular type of magic consistent in its theming, but esoteric in its uses.
For example, take fire. Fire burns, yes, but it can also bring warmth and comfort, and in addition is a common metaphor for emotions and their intensity. All of these can fall under uses for fire.
Likewise, darkness. Mystery, concealment, and embodying the unknown. The dark is not just where monsters and evildoers lurk, it's the unknown, the birthplace of imagination, be it positive or negative.
Consistency in theming, broad in application.
And before anyone else comments, I have had absolutely ZERO exposure to Homestuck.
Basically what MTG does. And lovely take on darkness
@@carlosalbuquerque22 marjorie taylor greene? lol
Keep magic logical, unlike the Republican mindset...😂
It's why healing fire is very cool. That it can be used to burn, or that it can be used to mend.
That the human body heals on its own, that must have looked like something truly magical to our ancient ancestors with zero understanding of the world around them. I can only imagine the fascination looking down at their hand and seeing a big lump of a scar where a gash used to be and thinking; "Why?"
Basically Homestuck
At first chemistry lesson the teacher (btw she was my favourite teacher, very nice and her lessons were always interesting) showed the class few simple experiments. Even if it was basic chemistry - barium chloride + sulfuric acid, both clear liquids, but when she pours one to another there's white out of nowhere. Same with phenolphthalein and alkali, two clear liquids made beautiful crimson colour when mixed together. Back then i didn't know nothing about that liquids and how they work together, it was like magic, even if it's evident to me now how chemical reactions working.
And my physics teacher always said "if you didn't learn about science, everything would be magical"
(Also my english is not very fluent sorry about mistakes)
I think that Witch Hat Atteliere has a really fun balence of these two: Coco, a novice to magic and its society, acts as the audience surrogate so charmingly. To her, the systemised magic of the world she lives in is a perpetually unfolding wonder of new mechanics extrapolated from the old ones. For an earlier example: magic is written through runes and inks. She constantly experiences new ways the mages in the world hide their runes under the guise of 'magic'.
I looove witch hat. Especially when you see more complicated magic later on and since you know how the fundamentals work, it's super fun trying to figure out how they could've gotten those specific effects going. It's got hard magic rules with nearly limitless potential
“She told me that if magic gives people what they want, then not using magic can give them what they need. said Granny, her hand hovering over the plate." - Terry Pratchett, Equal Rites
That's Sir Terry Pratchett. That man earned his knighthood.
@@timothypryor7952🐢🗺️🐘" Ook!!"🦧🔮📚
Granny Weatherwax is the greatest fictional witch of all time, and her greatness is that she would never use actual magic when a practical solution would do, and so much of being a witch in her view was psychology.
This actually reminds me of the Fate series magic system.
All supernatural phenomena are the product of 'Mystery'
The less you know about the nature of these phenomena the more powerful they will be as a form of "Magic"
The proper term for the arcane arts "studied" by the Mages of the series is actually called 'Magecraft'
Hey fellow Fate fan
And the most interesting part is that by learning and spreading the truth you can utterly destroy mystery, which is why Sherlock is forced into a Ruler Container
@@aredjayc2858 well that is because *SPOILER* is why when he would have been a caster as per 6th singularity in the Alchemist base.
Also it is a known irony in the mages association to have a school of magecraft when mystery is what rules it. Though thaumaturgy does majorly help in preserving it.
@@crocidile90 I'm aware, hence my saying he "is forced into a ruler container"
Just for clarification. Magic, or in technical terms, "True Magic" is any phenomenon that is impossible to replicate through normal means (AKA entirely impossible). Such as the Creation of Nothingness (or using ether clumps), the Operation of Parallel Worlds, Heaven's Feel, and whatever the Fifth Magic is called (which actually functions as rewriting the record of the root).
While magecraft (after the Age of Gods) is using Ether (the sixth element) to manifest possible phenomena, even if it would seem impossible using current means.
This is just my personal read on a story, but I think it fits really well with the theme of this video. To most characters in the Lord of the Rings, magic is, well, magical. Mysterious, impossible to categorize or define, incapable of being reproduced in its effects and incomprehensible in its means. Of course, LotR does actually have a soft magic system of sorts primarily based on authority, but the specifics are unknown. One of the most recognizable villains, Saruman, was a student of the Quasi-god of craftsmanship and described as being deeply fascinated in the lore and arcane aspects of the world, being obsessed with studying them. In my opinion, it was part of this futile attempt at understanding and classifying a free flowing, almost mythological world which led to him objectifying nature and human life, as they were just lesser fools who knew not of the secrets of Arda as he did, and were merely useful as numbers, pawns in his grand design. A similar thing could be said of Sauron, who also elevated himself to the comprehension of a world which was only meant to be fully understood by its Creator.
Sauron was also a Maia of Aule, and yes, what caused hsi fall was basically looking at the imperfection and foibles of mortals and going, "If I could just control all of them, they'd stop being bad."
The Specifics are unknown because there is no magic system... that's us trying to put a label on 1950's book that had different creative writing conventions back then. Magic Systems are a modern thing, Tolkien didn't mean to make a "magic system." The thing you mention is simply divine will of Eru.
This reminds me of this quote from Loki in a comic from Marvel: Magic is taking a thought and making it real. Taking a lie and making it the truth. Telling a story to the universe so utterly, cosmically perfect that for a single, shining moment... the world believes a man can fly.
This is actually something that is covered in a fair number of scp foundation work, in the modern writing community many stories are written with the anomolous having measurable values and many stories take that and begin to ask, then what is an anomaly? if we can describe how it works it isn't really still anomalous. One of my favorites is SCP-3844. A dragon that loses its magical powers as it is studied.
Also the fact that the scp universe has a unit to measure "reality" the lower the value the more weird reality gets
I think in SCP it's a little different. SCPs describe what happens, measurable values based on what we perceive from them, but nobody knows how or why any of it behaves the way it does... and when we do know why it behaves like it does, it's no longer an SCP, since there is a whole classification outright called "Explained". And even then, there are a lot of SCPs 'left in the dark' compared to others.
Huh, I never really thought about that before. the whole SCP Foundation universe is really just magic masquerading as science.
In general an anomaly is an anomaly because while some of its propertied may be somewhat understood because the foundation throws a lot of resources into the science of it all ultimately it's still unexplainable phenomena most of the time
They somewhat understand what is happening sometimes enough to even use it themselves, but enough is left misterious that it's still an anomaly
And there are situations where the foundation manages to understand something, one explained SCP is literaly just a modern smartphone that traveled back in time to like the early 20th century
It’s sort of like the SCP foundation understands the anomalous “symptoms” of each anomaly, but they don’t understand the anomaly itself.
6:27 this actually brings to mind one of my favorite lines from the Disney series Gargoyles, when Titania refers to "the human magic that men call science." Not only does it imply that science is as strange and wonderful to practitioners of magic as magic is to practitioners of science, but that magic is on some level bound by laws and principles, even if we don't understand what they are.
All magic is bound by rules
The rules don't need to make any sense (hell, a lot of the rules of physics don't make sense) or necessarily be compatible with physics, but there _has_ to be some self-consistency, otherwise you just have a case of "literally anything could happen at any time for no reason" and it becomes impossible to predict or harness, meaning there cannot be mages
Yeah I guess, but science is literally just doing, observing, reporting, and redoing.
Or it works by the Neil Gaiman principle. Reality is shaped by human will, when we believed in magic that was the guiding principle of the universe, and when we came up with rigid rules and structures that we were certain the universe had to follow that became the new paradigm.
In a way that’s even more terrifying than what the fry do.
@@SortOfEggish Presumably, in an alternate reality where "magic" exists, the people there would also have to learn how to use it by applying the scientific method and engineering principles.. like you said, by observing, reporting, hypothesizing, analyzing, and then applying.
There would be empirical research of what they are able to explore at the moment, and theoretical research into what they are not yet able to.
They would not call it "science" or "engineering", of course, but it's the most efficient and effective way to explore it, and the greatest minds of that alternate reality would quickly come to the same conclusion.
I notice it's a theme in a lot of fantasy settings, that it is set in a time that is "after a fall", where an ancient civilization was more advanced than the current ones. In this case, it is typical that the wizards/mages/sorcerers who did the original primary research are from long ago.. and the current magic users merely cast spells by rote without a proper full understanding.
Some more advanced mages may find new ways to use the known principles, and they'd be aplomb to engineers. A few would delve further into the underlying principles, using experimentation to try to discover things that are not yet understood, and they would be much like scientists.
As long as the "magic" is bound by rules. Its not magic, its science.
-dr stone proly
This actually made me rethink how magic works in my story, the reason I like fantasy so much is because of how removed it is from reality. By deciding on hard rules for my magic system I removed what made things fantasy and made it just reality with a few differences. Nothing wrong with that, but it’s not what I want and I didn’t realize it
I don't know if this'll help, but personally I like to emphasize that the magic system that I'd made is just an concept. Just humans trying to comprehend and classify Mother Nature's blessing.
That is also why I like to insert a miscellaneous category in it too, like Ancient Magic (Used but not understood completely) or Dragon/Etc Magic (Magic used by sentient beings in an incomprehensible language). Heck I'll even put in Black Magic as a label the Government use for forbidden magic (whether for good or evil, we'll see) just for creativity
I had a similar experience with my own story. My solution was to expand on the possibilities of what *could* be done, while hiding *how* they were done unless the reader needed to know (or if they went looking for answers themselves), which gave me more creative ideas to work with while letting certain aspects of it stay magical. Sure I wrote down the physics of how "magic" cools or heats the molecules in the air to create ice or fire, but also planets are alive and emotions have their own magical properties somewhat.
I guess one way to look at it is that there can be tiers of magic in your story. There's basic magic that wizards spent their whole lives studying and solving to a point where it's more of a science, there's mysterious fairy-tale magic that exists in the dreams of children (the power of friendship is a common example), and there's divine or cosmic magic that holds the universe together and can do just about anything to break reality to create an "impossible" obstacle.
You could have two magic systems. One for the hard rules stuff, and one for the 'impossible' stuff.
Pretty much what everybody else said, there's also stuff we cannot figure out irl after all but that maybe we will one day: "what was the universe like before the big bang? How did it actually happen? What happens to consciousness after death?" Things that, perhaps, as beings living in a 4d world or something like that we might actually grasp, but as things stand now? They might as well be magic, same goes for dreams for example, which we only barely are able to explain scientifically.
Find stuff like that for your magic systems, things that *might* make sense, but that ultimately have no way to be explained due to their very nature as magical and beyond comprehension.
You becoming a squid at the end of a certain game is one such example: it makes no sense, everything else to an extent does... But that's exactly the point, and eventually you just accept it for what it is: incomprehensible.
(It's obviously much deeper than that in that case but try as you might, you will mot find an explanation to HOW it happened, only on why or on what it means)
From the perspective of a software engineer, I feel what I do is magic sometimes in of itself. there are more complex things that I still percieve as wizardry (like PLC).
The approach you describe here in the video is one that I've felt myself for years, and I appreciate that you have created this video. Thank you
Yep! That's abstraction!
Lovecraftian Horror tackles this issue in the most effective way, I believe. Characters in Lovecraft's work are often scholars, who spend time and effort studying these things as though they were a science. However, while they can sometimes learn how to do an action to produce a result, they never understand why that happens. The forces at work are explicitly stated to be _unknowable,_ and any attempt to understand the magic leads, inevitably, to MADNESS.
A great example of this outside of Lovecraft's own work is the Fallen London universe of videogames (Fallen London, Sunless Sea and Sunless Skies). Bizarre, utterly supernatural things are pretty much a daily fact of life within these universes; but there is almost _no_ explanation of how or why it all works the way it does. Once again, there are methods to replicate various outcomes, and plenty of science-minded people trying to solve the problems by studying them, but there are never any answers, only ever-increasing, life-threatening TERROR as one approaches anything resembling a "truth".
In this sense, modern magic is essentially a mockery of science - it has the trappings of a "system", but any attempt to actually study it is futile. There is always a risk, and always a wonder, no matter how much you know.
Eh to be fair in both Lovecraft and Fallen London things are not unknowable per se. It is more that to attain the perspective needed to understand, ones own being and perspective is alienated from what one once was. The Hours in Fallen London fully used to be humans, they arent now as the path to becoming what they are neccecitated their change. The cultist in Lovecrafts original work note quite often and quite liberally that the Old Ones will teach them new ways of being but by the very nature of their rituals the l protaganist already considers them mad.
The key in both cases is specific rules may exist, but a knowledge gap is held both of potential antagonistic forces relation to those rules and the protaganist relation to those rules(mainly lovecraft for protaganist) A lot of the Fallen London setting is the journey to being capable of that understanding with actual showcase of what you lose along the way
I often use Lovecraft and as an example of the more you know the less interesting it is. But the problem is if it's too vague then it's frustrating because it seems too convenient a lot of the times.
This actually applies to a lot of things in real life/science. The more mass something has, the more gravity it has. But scientists aren't really concerned with why it happens, they spend most of their time studying the intricacies of its effects. You can apply that to a lot of things, because if you keep on asking "why?" you eventually get to something that doesn't have an answer.
@@juliandacosta6841 That's not true. Scientists are extremely interested in why - and how - mass creates gravity. That is the study of bosons. And we are constantly finding answers to such questions that were once thought "unsolvable" - whether thanks to developments in mathematics/physics, or technological developments in instrumentation. The assertion that "you eventually get to something that doesn't have an answer" has been made many times in the past, and continues to be proven false _constantly._
By contrast, Lovecraftian Horror is specifically written as a criticism on the incessant search for answers, saying that not only will you not receive answers at the end, but will also literally suffer for the hubris of believing that there would be answers.
ok, but hear me out. Irl science is just like this too. We're constantly learning new things, and the more we learn the more questions form. In addition, whenever we create or discover something new and powerful with our scientific revelations, it has the power to cause untold harm to our current way of life (which is always changing anyway but whose idealized version is oft considered the best way of life).
I like the idea of magic being a chaotic natural, almost an elemental force like storms or the seasons, that humans can try to harness a fraction of for their own means, but which risk destroying those who are too careless or ambitious.
Like sailboats, fire, or electricity
Like science.
My favorite of this kind of magic is, weirdly enough, from Jojo's Bizarre Adventure. The system I'm referring to is mostly Hamon and vampires, both being basically glass cannons. Both draw on the idea of the flow of life energy, and both were created to manipulate that flow. Hamon weaponizes that flow, and allows the user to do incredible things, but risks becoming useless if the user isn't calm and collected. Vampires, meanwhile, can be considered immortal due to their flow of life energy essentially being reversed, but require blood, and can't go out into the sun at all. Both can be used by someone to attain great power, but there are clear risks if someone is careless and ambitious, resulting in both using a more directly offensive style of fighting in order to end fights quicker to prevent their power's weaknesses from showing.
League of Legends does magic very well. In Arcane they are learning to harness magic, but it's very clear that despite all their achievements they are barely scratching the surface of it's potential.
I recommend Warhammer Fantasy Magic!
I liked The Owl House for having one of its most important plot points be about how a Magic System is extremely reductive, flawed and oppresive (it was imposed by a human over the magic users, the witches, to make matters worse) so it's actively fought against, until it is eradicated and all witches are free to practice their magic without labels. So they live without a system because it repressed their nature.
I haven't seen much talk about Tolkien's Mythopoeia, where, aside from various interesting topics, he explores the idea of fantasy and how the more you try to describe it, to capture it, the faster it will go away. It was very inspiring, and I think it connects strongly with this video.
Walking through the world of fantasy is hard. Especially the older you become and the more knowledge you gather. However, it's still very possible! Indeed, I find it extremely rewarding when I'm able to walk around in the world of fantasy. But to enjoy it, I must behave properly by not judging or thinking more than necessary so it doesn't run away.
And after it, like after a dream, trying to explain what you perceived there with accurate descriptions is both pointless and disrespectful. No words can ever precisely describe what lies in the world of fantasy. So beware if you try and do your best to use enough words and expressions, and let fantasy fill the rest.
Great video, as always!
This made me think about my experience with Sea of Thieves. As a new player, the world felt alive and magical, with adventure around every corner. The possibility of victory against impossible odds, or defeat when the encounter was in our favor was always possible. As I learned the mechanics, spawning and loot that each encounter had, the world felt less and less alive. It became more of a numbers game, and the reason I played switched from exploration and adventure to beating other pirates in PvP. I also noticed that when new encounters came in updates, I got that child-like wonder when I first encountered it, and did it over and over to milk that feeling until I learned the mechanics of the encounter and it became a numbers game.
Same thing happened with Minecraft
Damn you've just made me realise why I get that moment of sudden loss whilst playing a game. At the point of understanding, thinking the way it was built, the magic fades.
@@hexipo2352 and a lot of the time, we play to get better at the game, but the better we become the more the magic fades away. I guess that's the lifecycle of a game
I also have a good counterbalance to this: All science can be magical!
When i learn new theorems or new applications of them, i see how they work, why they work. But taking a step back and witnessing _that_ they work with my own eyes, that is magical to me.
Spoken like a true scientist... High five!
@@ultimatedragon4281 I remember when i learned about population inversion in gain media, how to pump them, and how absorption and stimulated emission work.
And then i take a laser pointer and marvel that it actually works.
Exactly!
Yeah, that was my immediate reaction to the beginning of this video. Science is magic to me. It doesn’t matter that we can explain a lot of it (actually, let’s be real, a small amount of it compared to what more we have to learn) it’s still us tinkering around with the building blocks of the universe to make amazing things happen. How can you not think of that as magical?
It reminds me of a.joke that shows up with really smart characters sometimes, albeit for a different reason. More the mystery side.
Char 1: Wait, how does that work?
Char 2: *Starts a complicated technical exploration*
Char 1: Right, magic, got it.
ok this is my first video ive seen from you and HOLY HELL THAT INTRO ANIMATION WAS SO BEAUTIFUL. i was already on board with the visuals going in, easily conveying ideas and mannnn that intro was just amazing
Wow, this video is truly mesmerizing! The art is absolutely stunning, and the storytelling is on point. It's fascinating how, if you know what happens, it feels more like a 'trick' than 'magic.' It makes me think about how magic often represents a gap in our understanding, and the most powerful magic happens when we accept that it cannot be explained. This piece really captures the essence of that mystery and wonder. Great job!
A book that I love which blends magic with systematic and fluid elements is Uprooted by Naomi Novik. I don't want to spoil too much, but it features a battle between an eldritch horror terrain while the characters are constantly trying to make sense of it, whereas the protagonist has a less structured and academic outlook that mixes nicely with more technical elements and allows for new and old magic to be discovered.
I loved this book! ❤️ I enjoyed Spinning Silver too.
@@ravenclawfairy3648 I got it with Uprooted! I just need to finish Watchmen first, but I'm really looking forward to it!
Theirs a deceptively interesting and complicated Magic System in the Lore of Elden Ring. Magic comes in many forms but always requires a focus, either through a God or a purposeful symbol. Theirs the Glintstone Sorceries which uses the magical stone called Glintstone, itself not all that special outside of its ability to grow but this magic comes from Astrology where Astrologers used the Stars, their positions and constellations to channel all sorts of magic and Glintstone is like the Night sky by using the Stars and the Stones you mimic the night sky above you and preform sorcery. Rot Magic and Blood Magic and Pyromancy are preformed through communion with those gods in charge of them using a charm or holy artifact to form the connection. It’s all about channeling and then controlling its form it’s not enough to reach for that power but to know how it moves to shape it. Understanding to symbols written in the sky, understanding the forms the power released by the various gods.
gay spotted!
Her books are sooo good. There's enough element of mystery that the understood applications work really well.
Im a sleight of hand magician and this video resonates with me because I can do things that some people accept as magic and I get to see the looks on their faces as they experience "real" magic for even a brief moment. I never get this feeling anymore from watching other's do magic which kinda makes me feel a little sad. It is nice bringing that to other's though 😌
@@3nertia You are correct. However I never get the "magic" like experience that others get. I wouldn't give up magic if it meant I got that feeling again though.
@@3nertia yeah I often do categorize tricks in my head but the only time I'm ever amazed by a trick is when I know the method and the trick is incredibly difficult
@@3nertia not exactly. I just never approach tricks the same anymore and even when one fools me it's not the same. Maybe I've yet to see a trick that truly baffles me.
@@3nertiaIt is hard to explain. No one has ever shown me a trick that completely fooled me. So I always have some idea of how they did it which makes the trick "unmagical". It's more like I have an idea but don't know the specifics. I would honestly love to be completely fooled by a trick.
You know what's really magic? The animation, it just looks so fresh and new, I love it!
The Irregular in magic highschool immediately popped up into my mind. It's a tricky anime/light novel series that somewhat explores what it'd be like if Science becomes an integral part of using magic. Magic certainly exists, there are even some characters who use an "older method" of casting magic such as using charms and things. But, it does stop feeling like magic once they start explaining how the magic works in theory. They use terminologies that makes the magic confined in the laws of physics, with the only magical thing being that "only magicians can draw from what allows these phenomena to occur". It's certainly an amazing series with cool magics but really, it feels more like a science-fiction most of the time than this fantasy magic story.
I think the problem arises when you want your POV characters to do magic. You HAVE to explain it to some degree, because the characters need to understand enough of it to be able to use it. Galadriel's magic feels magical because we're not seeing it from her perspective. But if the story were written from her point of view, it would need to include a little bit of explanation of what she's doing, the same way as a story about hobbits need to explain the ways they use their swords to defeat a band of orcs. The plot doesn't make as much sense if you don't understand how they won the fight.
Hm, I guess when Frodo does magic (not just wearing the ring to turn invisible. I mean what he does to Gollum), it is told kind of from Sam’s perspective?
Its like becoming a magician in real life, the more you learn the less will be magical. But you will develop an admiration for the art.
You don't really need to. There are many fan fictions of Harry Potter, and they don't need to explain magic. Everyone just knows Lumos would produce a light source at the tip of the wand and it's never explained how that works.
And surely it does have a system, else how the did Snape invent a new magic spell.
And even when you need to explain something, there are non-technical ways to explain it. For example, when Harry's wand caused Tom's wand to show the spells it had performed, it was simply explained that the wands are brothers. No real explanation was given, and that's still magical.
@@tengun You don't need to explain how it *works*, but even Harry Potter books explain how magic is *done*. They talk about how to say the right words and do the right wand motions and such. There is a consistent and obvious cause and effect.
I disagree. Even if a character is doing magic you don't have to explain the how or why, you can just explain what happens. Maybe it was the flourishing of their hands, maybe it was the mutterings of their voice, or maybe it was just willpower. The fact is, the audience doesn't always have to know why or how something works, just that it does. That's how a magic "system" can still feel magical rather than scientific. It's also the kind of system I use for storytelling quite often. I may know how the magic works, but if nobody in the story knows, why should the audience know?
An example of this is modern technology. You know what it is and how to manipulate it but do you actually understand it? If you are an electrical engineer or a computer engineer, sure, but otherwise it might as well be magic. But we as the mages of this technology have lost our appreciation for how truly incredible this stuff is. You don't have to show that cynicism to your audience, you can keep the wonder in your world.
The thing I don't like about soft magic systems is that they present a huge temptation to the author to take the easy way out when they wrote themselves into a corner and just make up some sort of magic on the spot to solve a problem. I do like the creativity hard magic systems (and rules of the world they built in general) forces on the author.
Yeah
And this "soft magic" is being used only in few moments. But in other it seem not to work
And those "bad magic" from HP
This is bad and evil just because it break all story by realizing that main characters could make it everything much easier
I mean, making up whole systems is a similar temptation. Down the line, you'd have systems after systems, expansion after expansion, and a few key exceptions to make it spicy. No good story starts with a full-blown system and never changes in those ways by the end.
Soft or hard magic, it both could be deus ex machina easy enough.
Both systems honestly have strengths and weaknesses. Both naritively and creatively.
@@alalalala57sure if the writer decides to retcon or maker things up on the fly. But every time creates a potential obstacle, while soft magic is completely prone to it.
i've been meaning to watch this video from my recommends. Glad that I finally listened to YT pointing me to your channel. Great video :)
My and my friend had a discussion about the line between “science” and “magic” and my like starting point was that if magic was real it wouldn’t be magic, it would be science. Our consensus ig was that if we can fully explain something and how and why it works it’s “science”, but if we don’t know the how or the why it works but simply that it “does” then it is magic.” Something we argued was that what about the beginning of the universe, we don’t truly know how or why but rather that it happened and he said then it might as well be magic (within the space of topic) but if we could make fire out of thin air with our hands but be able to perfectly explain it then it would be science.
I haven’t thought of that convo in a while and this video just happened to remind me of it and I appreciate that
Shows the enduring brilliance of Tolkien's works.
Truly one of the most imaginative authors to have ever lived
He uses soft magic, soft magic is always magical due to the mystery and charm.
@@cloberlobster2276 and that is exactly why he is so great.
He uses system to the fullest of it' potential and creates such great moments.
Soft magic system isn't bad as it is, it's how you use it.
@Ivan Solodyankin I would say that while I agree soft magic is great, it is something that has to be used carefully. Honestly, I personally think Tolkien was a legendary world builder, but his story writing was not as great. The problem I have with how soft magic was used was simply how overpowered some of his character became (*cough* Gandalf *cough*), and that led to him needing to very obviously manipulate the situation so that Gandalf, or the Eagles, or a lot of other characters didn't just wave the situation away with their power. That's why, as cool as the Balrog was, the scene with him was rather poorly written, because it very cleary served the purpose of removing Gandalf from the fellowship, as to let their stories continue without being derailed. It's really hard to fit soft magic into hard world building
@@sophisticatedidiot8737 i still would call all his mistakes a win, since you don't question most of his decisions while reading, you can start asking questions later, when you think about what read more, but in the moment the story and the characters grip you so hard that you just don't want to think about it.
Yes, some aspects could use an improvement, but i would argue, that mistakes and imperfections make the story better in a way, imperfections in a great story is a sign of human hand that created this story.
You can critisize the man for making mistakes, but you can't deny that those mistakes are outright RUIN the expirience.
I hope you can understand what i'm trying to say, english isn't my first language, as you can deduct from my name, sorry in advance if butcher some of my own thoughts while trying to convey them. XD
I think there's more to what Galadriel says to the hobbits than just that she understood the "magic". I don't recall if it's in the same excerpt, but I remember that the elves were said to be quite shocked that men (and hobbits) used the same word, 'magic', to refer to both the elvish craft _and_ the "machinations of the Enemy" (Sauron). One could say the elvish magic and Sauron's 'dark' magic are two vastly different magical systems: elvish 'magic' is art and craftsmanship freed of all material and technical limitations, achieving perfection through *natural* means, i.e. the nature of living and inanimate things. It is somewhat similar to the real world notion of 'natural magic', advocated primarily throughout Renaissance times. Sauron's magic, otoh, does *not* work _through_ nature but _against_ it, twisting and torturing it, seeking to dominate and coerce it.
Interestingly, there's more overlap between the two than the elves would care to admit; indeed, the forging of the One Ring felt like an utter betrayal to them precisely because Sauron fused elvish with dark magic in forging it, therefore tricking them into participating in a despised craft. For all intents and purposes, it was a rape of their culture.
You forget it was all created in a song and the manipulations of the void were harmonized within.
It's also a difference in philosophy. Elves try to align themselves to the song of creation, whereas Morgoth and Sauron rebell and try to force their own will unto the world.
You're wrong in one point. The creation of all Rings of Power are twisted with the 'magic' from Sauron, its designs all come from him disguised. Although the Elves studied and crafted these to preserve their lands, that act itself was against nature, because the act of unnaturally embalming the natural world is inherently evil in this world.
That's the sin of the Noldor Elves who remained in Middle Earth, to attempt to rule the Earth and yet try to recreate 'heaven' in it, or the closest thing to it they understood, that is Valinor.
Really love this video, really helped me rethink a lot about anime. A Certain Magical Index and The Ancient Magus' Bride specifically.
Index has both traditional Magicians and Esper. Esper originate their power from scientific experiments/development where everyone has a unique power and level. On the other hand, although magic is explained as a separate rule it is viewed by the magicians as "a method to achieve the talented can naturally do" (not the exact quote, but IIRC that was the idea). Unlike the common magic system, Magical Index uses references from religions, folklore, or epics to structure out a method to produce a supernatural occurrence (e.g. conjure fire) that can be used by anyone. It is not specifically made for the naturally talented (like Esper) so Espers who use them might die and even magicians overuse them can fry their brain.
It is simultaneous less structured (not simple like fire, water, wind, and earth) but also more structured (every magic has a source reference). This magic system is still very magical, at least much more magical than regular common elemental magic systems.
As for Ancient Magus' Bride, they differentiate between a Mahou (Magic) and Majutsu (Alchemy*). Mahou is borrowing the power of faes, spirits, ghosts, or demons to affect the law of nature. Majutsu is a science that study on turning one's internal energy to mana and produce similar results that magic would. I am not sure why the English translation is Alchemy but I guess there isn't an equivalent word for it in English.
Mahou is the traditional way, having to communicate and, at some point, negotiate with supernatural beings in order to do what a mage wants. It is more powerful than Majutsu but also very talent dependent. On the other hand, Majutsu does not need to interact with supernatural beings, less powerful, but not as talent dependent. Mahou is very magical in the sense that it lacks a lot of the rules (mainly just negotiation and will) in this series. It really captures the magic of "Magic" (ha).
You earned another subscriber, maybe not much but thanks for make me questioning those things. I need these resources to think about my wrinting and the ideas i try to create in each story.
Admittedly I only just started the video, but I think there's a pretty simple reason that magic systems don't feel magical these days. A LOT of it focuses on the idea of magic as a power system for its characters to use to solve problems. The idea that a Wizard is an actually reliable part of the party rather than a strange outsider who disappears at the most inconvenient time when the soft, do-anything magic system could easily solve all of your problems. (As you can tell, that's a dig DIRECTLY at Gandalf.)
As such, the idea of magic as something ephemeral and unreliable has somewhat fallen out of fashion in exchange for using harder, more specific, more reliable magic systems with more specific rules and spells as to facilitate this "Powerset" without breaking the story.
Also, now that I'm further in. Another modern "trend" leansaway from that idea of wonder and impossibility because there's an idea that plot shifts that come out of the blue due to seemingly impossible magic is bad writing
@@aquamarinerose5405tell me you never read a LOTR book without telling me
@@kori228 Yea, admittedly this is a big issue (and honestly an annoying one), but it's different from the question of whether magic ought to be "magical"
I think this is the greatest explanation of the video, the video is defining magic as the unexplained, that it's only "magical" if the rules aren't clear , that let's you write in anything and can make for a boring system unless your wizard is a rare character or unreliable , Gandalf is a fantastic example since they have to basically write him out.
I'd still call Avatar or FMAB "magical" even though the system are clear.
It's a mistake to label soft magic systems as "do-anything", because that's not what it's about. Hard magic systems can be equally "do-anything", it's nothing to do with the structure of it. Soft magic systems are just less structured. There can still be significant limits to what can be done, when, and how, even if the reader or even the writer might not know all the specifics about it. Figuring out even the basics of why something didn't work when clearly it should can even be whole plot points in themselves.
Gandalf himself is actually a very good example of this. If soft magic systems were indeed "do-anything", why did he run from the Balrog, or even the goblins before that? Why hasn't he killed any dragons? Why doesn't he simply whisk the Ring away into Mount Doom? Why does he fear the Palantíri so? His magic is very clearly limited in numerous ways, and quite substantially at that. It's not something he can simply whip up whenever he wants or even needs. Had he been present earlier for the trolls Bilbo encountered, there'd still be precious little he could have done. He only appeared like a deus ex machina because the sun was rising and there was only a large bit of stone in the way that he could split. He did nothing directly against the trolls, it was the power of the sun itself that did them in.
I find that the best thing to do is to create a hard magic system and then use it as a guide for yourself as the writer but then don't tell the reader all of it, so that they're exposed to understanding the magic in your world slowly, and maybe never completely. Keep them guessing, keep the magic alive. Much the same as in relationships.
One Piece Lore in a Nutshell
That's what I'm trying to do with my story. Downside tho is that it does take away the element of mysterious magic for me.
@@Harbiter yeah, I have a working model for you that might help put the magic back into things for you as the narrator, BUT it's actually one of the saddest realizations I had to face, that being that in order to have the perfect story that I would love to discover and engross myself with as a reader, I must become the writer and narrator and accept that in doing so not much will be a mystery to me.
EDIT:
My workaround model for you is simple but not simple to do.
Basically, you can try to apply "real world magic" systems, that being systems of magic that existed in cultures around the world, doesn't have to be European.
So to explain, what I mean is that there are already some "rules of magic" in cultures around the world, use that as a starting point, the bones for your magic system, then work on fleshing out the smaller details by working out how that system could be used to make certain things happen?
For example, in my book I'm using a highly technologically advanced base to explain how [Insert Unique Culture] magic might've worked, basically magic is "ancient advanced technology", and to recreate "undead" in this universe I'm saying that zombism is actually ancient nanites reanimating corpses.
Basically, by doing this, I'm discovering how the magic works as I'm writing the story, and I don't give away too much of the details of how it all works and I use different words, so I would never mention "nanites" but instead I might call them "Vitae" a sort of magical essence that flows through us all, and through a few more powerfully than the rest.
I'm learning as I write
@@nerath639 I've never watched that show, I won't pass judgement but I never felt it was my kind of thing.
"Keep them guessing"
You are a horrible human being
Thank you! So many people who write and teach about worldbuilding talk like hard magic is somehow obviously better because it "makes more sense," but I've always preferred soft magic because, to me, NOT "making sense" in that way actually makes my experience of the fantasy world much more magical. I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks so!
I have practiced Magic system building for quite a while thanks to inspirations like FMA and Brandon Sanderson. The more intuitive and frankly worldbuilding-harmonious method I've been drawn to is to make it so that whilst the uses and patterns of casting magic are somewhat steadily agreed upon, most people can only rely on belief or rational deduction for where it originated. It's quite common practice and study for multiple fields and paradigms to debate and challenge one another, and the closer one may get to the truth, the less believable and more eldritch it appears. Bending the laws of reality is tricky, but can be obtained through practice. Creating and breaking laws is far more complicated, and it seems there are multiple ways in which a law can be broken.
I'm surprised you didnt go in depths, talking about actual real life magic systems as well (alchemy being the ancestor of chemistry, prayers being so close to meditation and spells, etc.)
So glad someone mentioned meditation, when I am in a deep meditative state it feels like magic. 😊
Alchemy wasn’t seen as magic to its practitioners; it was a technology. They developed a lot of what we now call chemistry, and they had no reason to believe transmutation or universal healing potions were impossible, just difficult. The mysterious mystical language used in a lot of the texts was there to keep the techniques secret from those without the knowledge, not because they believed there were actually spirits or gods involved. (Ive just finished reading “The Secrets of Alchemy” by Lawrence Principe, an excellent history of the field.)
@@seigeengine it's not really redundant, it's just going into more depth. sure, you may not like watching a 2 hour video going into every specific detail of a topic, but I sure as hell would.
@@seigeengine Don't have an aneurysm, Sheldon.
You want real magic; it is the Dealings with Jinn(creatures of the unseen who r made from smokeless fire) like Angels(made of light) who are also part of the unseen world, Jinns like us Humans have freewill , a famous one of the Jinn is Satan.
Unlike Angels who have no freewill & only glorify and obey the commands of GOD.
And this is how GOD talks about the Origin of Magic in the scripture :
'And they followed [instead] what the devils had recited during the reign of Solomon. It was not Solomon who disbelieved, but the devils disbelieved, teaching people magic and that which was revealed to the two angels at Babylon, Harut and Marut. But the two angels do not teach anyone unless they say, "We are a trial, so do not disbelieve [by practicing magic]." And [yet] they learn from them that by which they cause separation between a man and his wife. But they do not harm anyone through it except by permission of Allah . And the people learn what harms them and does not benefit them. But the Children of Israel certainly knew that whoever purchased the magic would not have in the Hereafter any share. And wretched is that for which they sold themselves, if they only knew.' (Quran 2 : 102)
The animations, the voice, the atmosphere you've built around your videos, then the intro animation with the books happened and I was blown away. That's magical. It's beautiful. I can't believe I haven't seen your channel before.
I didnt have time to finish this video, but i subscribed instantly and definitely gonna binge the channel later. I love creators who actually put effort into their content
That robot rantsona perfectly fits the voice. Good stuff.
@@declanashmore*
Exact same experience I just had. Just went from "Oh? What is this?" to "What a chill vibes voice" to "Okay, that's fucking sick" when the intro animation started, I'm so excited to binge the rest of this channel
For me the soft vs hard thing boils down to: is magic art or science primarily? They overlap (craft) by necessity, but you prioritise one based off your aims in telling the story/personal taste. I also think soft magic tends to work best when built as a way to reinforce the themes of the story- in discworld, a series about taking the mundane, stupid, yet absurd bits of the world and pointing out the humanity behind them, we have magic that is literally stated to being "how we expect the world to work based off story tropes"- which is intentionally a big string of plot holes, but one the reader, who understands fundamentally this is a story, follows the logic of. Then you have Mistworld, which is more plot driven, where magic is literally a plot mechanic- its a story about finding out the rules and limits of the magic basically. It says very little about the themes, but drives the story. Im always gonna prefer soft magic to hard, but I find the themes of a story more intresting then the plot, and understand the reverse perspective
the sense of immersion shown in this channel, the world contained within it, the vibes. its unparalleled. great job!
An interesting thing for me about Brandon Sanderson's work in the two currently existing Mistborn series (some spoilers ahead, be warned) is that some of the potential power that was available in the first trilogy is removed in the second. In the first series, there were those called Mistborn that could harness all the available attributes of the primary magic, and we follow one of them through all three books. In the next series, the Wax & Wayne tetralogy, there are no more Mistborn, and we follow a character who can only access one aspect of the magic and specializes in it, adapting to more situations with his relatively limited toolset. It was always fascinating to me while I was reading to see them reflect on that previous age, now centuries past, when there were effectively demi-gods running around leveling buildings and such with almost no effort. It retroactively gave me that sense of awe and wonder, yet at a system both myself and the characters already largely understood. It put the actions of the Mistborn characters in slightly more 'hobbit-like' perspective, using time and access to the magic instead of characters' limited understanding. Sanderson has a very good understanding, imo, of what makes the two extremes of 'magic as science' and 'magic as wonder' (hard vs soft magic, as he calls them) work, and he enjoys playing with how to achieve the effects of both, and slowly slide you along the spectrum from one to the other
Spoilers for the newest Mistborn book ahead, be warned!!!
Lerasium is gone and pretty much faded in the later trilogy, since it was diluted after bloodlines. That's what created Mistborn. However, with Trellium and Harmonium you can see that it can be created again albeit via a big explosion, and Wax actually breathes in Lerasium from the air which is how he's so powerful. Which means we could get a resurgence of Mistborn in the third Era!
@@kitty.miracle Well, everything is boring to someone 🤷
@@raizin4908 naw, Sanderson is overrated, vastly so in the same vein of GRRM tier overrated, nearly. Mistborn is actually quite shitty and the subvillain Zane was way more interesting than anything else and our best mistborn v. mistborn fight we got, which was also short as fuck. The twist about her earring was alright but the whole emperor thing was a massive drag.
Waxillium was a much more fun character to read than Vin's drawn out series, and the short novel length actually helps the format. We got comedy, dynamic characters, and better fights in my opinion in Wax's series. It still had its flaws and allomancy seems weird in the early industrial age, but it's an enjoyable enough read. Can't say the OG mistborn series really stuck out, it's just generic despite it's own unique ideas, that's how it feels to me. Dull and gray, a lot like their world. Not looking forward to series 3, if he'll ever actually release it.
Well, the word "magic" in itself is meant to signify something we can't explain so if in fiction it is written as a systematized and studied subject, it is no longer magic and is instead "science". In Japanese fiction they try to go about this subject by using different words like "Majutsu" and "Mahou", both of which pretty much refer to "Magic". Not to forget "Tejina" which is referring to the the stage magic type of magic. What they often do is instead have both Mahou and Majutsu exist in the same fictional universe, but one is a "science" which the current civilization uses within the setting, while the other refers to "unexplainable miracles" and other such feats.
Fellow Index fan, I see.
@@ashutoshmohapatra7320 Not really taking it directly from Index, but it is an example.
Supernatural power, psychic power, Ki, etc. They're all the same.
That's actually false. The word 'magic' comes from Babylonian 'mazja' and means "the way the world works"
While the modern interpretation of magic often equates it to an unexplained science, ancient cultures and myths depicted supernatural powers as governed by understood principles or possessed by knowledgeable individuals. In almost every culture across the world it was the exact opposite. In those times, magicians were revered for their wisdom. Dismissing these beliefs as mere ignorance disregards the profound understanding these cultures had of their own systems. Magic was never intended to represent a lack of understanding or an unsolvable mystery. And Clarke's third law is the epitome of an egotistical unimaginative worldview that stifles creativity from a place of hubris.
Mercy: I refuse to believe that your healing is magical.
Zenyatta: What seems like magic is sometimes science we don't yet understand.
Mercy: Exactly! I must learn how it works!
I like a mix of both, magic that can be used with predictable outcomes, and magic that is dangerous and forbidden because it's unpredictable and unstable, that would make thing's more interesting, especially when in practice
Pratchett’s magic has always managed to maintain it’s magical properties. A massive accomplishment for the number of books he wrote with it
I think that's because the rules themselves are so... playful. There's logic but it's at a slant to normal logic. L-space is one that comes to mind; books are knowledge, knowledge is power, power is energy, energy is mass, so -logically- a sufficiently large body of books creates a singularity.
@@stargate525 yep magic in Discworld is barely restrained chaos, so while the rules exist and work the outcomes are like rolling a d20 with half the sides a 1.
Because Pratchett's magic incorporates language games and witticisms into the mechanics of his magic itself (when he reveals those mechanics). Thus even when you learn the mechanics, and close the gap in understanding there is a different type of satisfaction from understanding how the author's use of comedy and logic helped the story to arrived at the punchline.
that's because he never explains jack.
@@martintoder2701 he literally does, all the time? his witch books are constatnly talking about the nature and laws of magic, and how witch magic is different from wizard magic, such as, if someone wants to light a hat on fire, a wizard would try to force the material to heat itself enough for it to burns into flames while the witch flips through realities and finds one where the hat just suddenly bursts into flames and then convinces the reality around the hat that the hat should be on fire right now. then theres the morphogenetic field, the Borrowing, the L-space, the sourcery, jesus theres a lot of magic talk in his books.
I love magic systems only to creatively "break" them and create that sense of wonder even if for a moment within players at the gaming table.
Loved the atmosphere you brought into that video (Artsyle, narration, music...). Keep it up !
Some years ago, I watched America's Got Talent with my parents, and the winner was a guy named Shin Lim, who specializes in card magic.
As in... REALLY advanced card magic. In all of his performances in the competition, he kept wowing the audience, judges and us viewers watching TV. And I could not figure out or imagine at all how he did those tricks.
Usually in card magic, the magician wears long sleeves, I think, which helps making cards disappear and appear and stuff. But Shin Lim wore short sleeves, meaning he could not use that kind of trick.
Plus his speed is simply INCREDIBLE, he moves the cards so fast you can't see where they go, not in his palm or the back of his hand turning away. I think maybe also the tables he used did not have any tablecloths, if I remember correctly, so he couldn't hide them in any way with the table.
But the SICKEST trick was the last performance he gave in the competition, where he was holding a card, and then IT CHANGED LIVE RIGHT IN FRONT OF EVERYONE! As if it was a screen, but it was just a card!
I don't care much for musical performances like many competitors do, you see it all the time. But magic like this? Even his first performance was enough that I hoped he would win, and he did, which was awesome!
I don't know how Shin Lim did his tricks, and I don't want to know how, because that is definitely the closest thing to real magic that I, and probably most other people, will have ever seen. In fact, I am ready to believe that what I saw was true magic, and that Shin Lim is a true magician. It was just so good. Maybe I should rewatch his performances, just to be sure that I remember it correctly, because I think even the judges said they couldn't figure out how he did it and that was enough to get a yes from them.
Anther great video!
Would you say what makes Lovecraft so frightening is that his cosmic horror is sort of like a hard magic system in reverse, being a universe of science but one were the system in the edges is breaking down into the unknown? I would think that would be terrifying and maddening to those in that system.
Not really, even Lovecraft says it several times, all the cosmical beings in this universe are incomprehensibly so advanced (both technological and biologically speaking) that their mere existence is magical, just look at the cultist and their rituals to invoke the powers of the ancient gods of the void, but it's still the same, hyper advanced beings that to us looks like good old magic.
Sounds very similar to the video's subject.
To be honest, I have zero qualms with making the magic systems of my universe and stories follow certain laws. That's almost part of the fun, to me; having certain societies see some force or object as supernatural when other societies understand it completely. If you took a gun or a smartphone and brought it 1000 years into the past, nobody would understand the science behind it, but that doesn't mean the science doesn't exist, and I'm fine with portraying magic the same way. Maybe I will just stop using the word 'magic' to describe the system at all, though of course the people in my fictional world are still going to call it magic because they don't understand it themselves. Other writers can evoke this 'magical' feeling with their work; that's just not what I'm trying to do.
Edit: I was made aware that guns were actually invented closer to 1000 years ago than now, so just scratch that bit.
"It's not *magic* it's waterbending!"
Worked for Avatar
Yeah, I just called them power system
If you can understand it, then it's not magic
@@rommdan2716 I'm just calling it magic because most people hear the word 'magic' and understand that I'm talking about spellcasting and superpowers. It's for convenience, nothing more.
Pretty sure Allomants in Mistborn don’t even see themselves as magicians, not sure though since the only other series I’ve read in that universe is The Archive of Storms and their magic system isn’t really seen as magical
The biggest problem with magic for me is the concept of mana. Whenever mana or some other name is used, it feels not as a wonderful phenomenon, but rather a trade, I am spending my daily wizard allowance to purchase this event. Even when explained, it can still be magical if it seems impossible/improbable.
But it gets very trivial when the only real restriction is if you can afford the spell.
Magic without rules is but convenient tool for the writer to whatever he wants not matters how plot breaking it is, mana or whatever name is necessary for magic, it sets limit's so the writers cant just have the mage spamming spells like a maniac a breaking the plot, rules are a necessity for a story to chain the writer so he cant do whatever they may want
@slenderman403 I am OK with the limit, I am just not ok with how they implement it, because it is not something we as an audience can really measure, it's vague, unclear, unfair and far too simple. It's like saying that magic is a cellphone and mana is the battery life. If you don't have it, you can't do shit, fair enough. But if you have enough of it, you can do EVERYTHING. Forget the need for internet, forget any of the programming with the single calculator I can call my friends look stuff up online, shoot people and make my couch tell me a story.
Complications are all up to the writer's decisions and the difference between a master and a novice is who brought the most external batteries.
@@slenderman403I disagree because I’ve seen a different system in action. My friend created a manaless system that feels very fulfilled and impressive. The risk of casting magic is simply on you - the bigger you try to make your spell, the simply more likely you are to fail.
@@miroslavradev9006I think it can work; I have a system of 'mana', but the mana is the casters own sanity. The more magic they use, the more they go insane.
@Hoppeankirk Using a finite resource might work as a better system which would enforce consequences, but if sanity can afterwards be restored, it loops back to the previous issue. Sure, it takes longer, and it's a narrative pain, but the results are similar.
If you can not recover, then it's basically a death timer where the magic does need to be worth the sanity cost. That one kind of restricts the story of a mage to be a tragedy.
Thank you for this video! I love the feeling of wonder, but I also like to have some degree of magic-system-ification going on. Possibly because I love elemental type stuff, with all its tropes and color coding and such, but also have some things kind of undefined! I just like to have a balance of both, but with a simple and intuitive system, not one with like 84 rules haha. It's valid in its own right, but it's not really my thing when it becomes super complicated.
That's why I love the Mage/Sorcerer divide. The former keeps magic from being unrealistically unexplored, while the latter keep it mysterious and awe-inspiring. You get both soft and hard magic in a same universe and show that they both have their ups and downs.
I think DnD always has two parallels of magic
Wizard/Cleric/Druid are more intelligence stat based (wisdom/intelligence) and based off devotion to beings or the arcane
their parallels
Sorcerer/Favoured Soul/Spirit Shamans is less about understanding magic but how you commune with the forces that be either yourself, the diety or the spirits of elements and nature.
One is more the tool box being able to adapt and change their spells, where the other is less forcing it and is a natural thing it would be like us trying to grow another foot because we will it. They have less spells but can cast more since it's natural to them.
My instinct was that it would be the reverse.
What I believe she meant is that in the ever changing culture of fleeting races such as hobbit she doesn't fully understand they're definition of magic because for her, magic IS mundane and so in turn doesn't recognize the boundary between what's considered magical or mundane to the hobbit.
THE NEW INTRO IS FANTASTIC!! love the detail and the movement is really fluid!
This is this guy's first video I've watched. He has a relaxing voice and the video was very good. I look forward to more.
Part of the reason for the rise of systemic magic over 'wonder' magic is that, after Tolkien, wonder magic tends to feel very much like a narrative cheat--to paraphrase Lucy Lawless, "Anytime you need something to happen, a wizard does it." The one place where such an approach to magic is most satisfying is in modern, updated fairytales, since most magic in those has some sort of internal logic, but no explanation beyond "This is how it is".
So the movie Labyrinth, or the comic book series Fables, or the novels of Neil Gaiman, all draw upon that sort of approach to magic, and you just accept it. But it can cause issues. "Why didn't Gandalf just..." becomes a common refrain, since he clearly has the power to do a lot of things. Sure, he doesn't dare bear the Ring himself, but it seems like he should be able to whip up some sort of magical transportation to get everyone there faster. And if you explain WHY he can't do this or that, then you're on the first step of creating a systemic magic approach, instead, since delineating limits is part of any system design.
This can be fixed with a modicum of competence. Doing things that you going to have to do even in a hard magic system. If you have a main character who does magic, establish what spells he can perform early in the story, set a basic rule on how much he can do before he's reached his limit. His powers have limits. If you have another mage show up, you can use basic writing tricks to establish what they know. Let's say this new mage went to the same school, so they know a lot of the same stuff as your existing mage. If you establish they are more or less skilled you can assume they may have a different knowledge pool, and thus know more or less spells, or maybe just a couple of different ones. So long as you don't significantly alter the plot with a spell that comes out of knowhere or that has a grossly different power level to waht has been established so far, like say stopping an avalanche whene all TK seen in the story so far has been nothing more than throwing smaller objects. Your pretty good. Even then it can work if you have established that a powerfull wizard lives up in the mountains with magic so grand it put's others to shame.
It's when you have an established character pull a new spell out of nowhere, or a novice perform a feat that is on a vastly different scale from anything we have seen before without any good reason, that you have an issue. All of which can happen with a "hard magic" system too. Hell this can happen without even having magic in a setting. Suddenly a 5' twig of a man can just lift a massive huliking brute above his head, showing strength he has not even been hinted at possessing before, is going to ring just as hollow as the magical equivalent, if not more so.
A good example of how to do this right is Star Wars, a good example of how to do this badly is Disney Star Wars.
It's also kind of silly to assume defining any limits is going to cause the more hard "sciency" feel to show up. Stuff like the rule of three are certainly rules, but rules that feel mystical in nature.
my way of thinking is that you don't explain whys and hows, but you do explain what it can't do. Like a lot of stories with soft magic say 'no resurrection'. or 'we can heal wounds but we can't cure cancer'. Or 'they can only cast this on a full moon while in good health'. Or the circumstances happened to align in an extremely rare way to allow a usually impossible thing to occur.
but you may never get any sense WHY things can't be done. It can make stories involving magic compelling, where it seems at first like magic can do anything, and then the characters are smacked right in the face with its limitations. Sure, I can cast a fireball, I can fix a broken chair, I can talk to dragons. But I can't save my dying wife from liver cancer, so WHAT'S THE FUCKING POINT? And not knowing why makes it worse. It's cosmic cruelty, it seems like. Fairy tales get a lot of mileage out of brutal arbitrary rules, and I think that's something to keep in mind writing more mystical fantasy.
@@patrickbuckley7259 First, I've got to disagree with you on Star Wars. The first movie does nothing to establish the power of the Force as anything other than a form of divination and low-grade mind-control. Second movie adds telekinesis, even though Obi-Wan never used it once in the first movie (Darth Vader does, of course, but really only for Force Choking, which could be argued to be an example of controlling someone's mind to the point where they cannot breath). Third film then pulls Force Lightning out of the Emperor's butt with no warning. In that context, I see no issues with astral projection or yogic suspended animation, which are the two primary examples given of how the sequels 'screwed up' the Force.
But that example does get to my point--a LOT of times, 'mystical' magic is just interpreted as a Deus Ex Machina, which is why most modern fantasy authors prefer systemic magic unless they are very specifically going for the fairy tale vibe. I suspect a lot of editors and publishers nudge writers in that direction for that very reason.
@@soren3569 Except every time we saw a new power it was either A. Introduced early in the film, (and he was struggled to use it to lift his lighsaber) as was the case with Luke's TK in Empire (This was also used as a stroy telling technique to show Luke had been training in the force between the two movies), or it was heavily implied that the users where possessed of great power. Yoda showing big TK, and Palpitates Lightning. Both where figures implied to possess great power, and Palpatine was clearly possessed of some darker power, and thus might possess abilities a Jedi would not.
The Astral Projection was not the issues, it was being able to teleport crap with it, or Luke dying because he used it. The Leia scene was just executed really poorly, and it was not really set up Leia had learned much about the Force. Personally I think both powers fit into the mold quite well. My issue was the mass TK Rey pulled off despite being a novice. Or Yoda using Force Lightning to destroy the tree, or Palps blowing up a fleet with force lightning... The power level went from where even the most skilled Force User's where pretty limited, to novices pulling off DBZ level bullshit in like 2 movies with very little set up.
I do think a lot of people where just being babies about the force healing, though it's limit's/cost could have been better defined and she probably should have learned it from Luke on the island...
I don't tend to ask those things.
You don't necessarily have to use soft magic to get that magical experience. Some of the very best written works of fiction can easily merge the two, although often it comes in the form of it being magical at first and then you gradually learn what it's all about. Even then though, the really good ones really make you feel the wonder of the joy of discovery.
I think Ascendance of a Bookworm is quite likely the best known among the available titles out there that really manages to handle magic right, having a very solid hard magic system and yet presenting it in a way where it seems mystical and baffling to the reader viewing the world through Mine's perspective. And yet, at the same time, it is actually her view of this world as all magical and wonderful that allows her to reach heights far beyond what others can, because in her mind, there is absolutely no difference between the magic of men and the magic of gods. They are both equally fantastical to her. And therefore, when she learns about divine miracles, she just takes it for granted that of course the gods can grant magical miraculous effects, and therefore she prays to the gods in the full-hearted faith and knowledge that they can use powerful magic to grant blessings. As a result, the gods come to grant far more powerful blessings through Mine than they do through anyone else.
Its noted that she is able not just to get blessings stronger than others casted, but from multiple gods and even ones that dont like each other. Which noted to a far greater feat.
Friend of mine who's up to date on the novels said it's also in part because she actually bothers to remember all the gods' complicated names when she prays, while everybody else is too lazy. Well gee, who'da thought you might get more of a response from the gods when you ask them by name instead "hey, what's-your-face, I could use some magic here!" 😂
But by the end, its not magic. That's the point.
@@zibbitybibbitybop oh yeah showing basic respect to a god like that would curry better favor too.
It takes a while to show it, though.
Idk if I just haven't seen a video in a while but I freakin love the new intro.
Also, have you read the Coldfire Trilogy? Fascinating magic system to me.
This is a fascinating topic, but I'd love to hear more tips on how to balance world building magic to make enough sense to not feel contrived (like pulling out exactly what the characters needed at the right time, or being a series of "and then this happened" events) but also seem inexplicable enough to be mysterious and intriguing to the reader. Maybe it means planning things behind the scenes but telling the reader as little as possible (or makes sense for the point of view to be able to perceive or understand) about it in descriptions and exposition - which can be really hard after spending a lot of time and effort working out all of those clever details!
I think a lot of the time, it comes down to why you want to write fantasy and what your book is trying to achieve. Is magic a plot mechanic primarily, or is it a theme mechanic? Your story should have both, but how you balance it is up to you. I think hard magic is more about the plot- the hard magic allomancy in mistborn is functionally irrelevant to the themes of the story- but it works perfectly as a mechanic for the plot, which is largely about understanding and reshaping the world, to play out. On the other end of the scale you have something like American Gods- the super soft magic system works perfectly for the themes of cultures and stories being things that are fluid and evolving, but the plot is basically just a big road trip with scheming gods- theme takes precedence. Both books are using a very strong internal logic, buts it's a diffrent logic (like organising your bookshelf alphabetically vs by colour both make sense, but personal taste will cause you to prefer one.)
I think magic can both be hard and mysterious. It's hard because the author has it all thought out, and all of its manifestations will abide by the same rules--but only in retrospect, after the readers have been told (or better, after they've figured out) the rules.
Meanwhile, the characters who don't have the same amount of information as the author and the readers are allowed to form their own (wrong or incomplete) theories about how magic works. And because readers are meant to connect to the characters emotionally, they will naturally share the characters' bafflement and wonder. I see no contradictions there.
Nature is hard. Murder mysteries are hard (you know, unless specifically noted, that the murderer uses mundane means to achieve his killings. You just don't know how). Hell, stories are hard in that you aren't given the full picture at the beginning, but instead clues, foreshadowings, and exposition, yet the "full picture" is always there from the beginning. Doesn't make them less interesting in the slightest.
Yes, I agree. Complex and largely unexplained HM can be as mysterious and wonderous as SM is.
Well not "magic" the game Braid is a pretty good example of this, it's a puzzler built out of the consequences that the rule set creates....
So rather than "solving" the puzzles it more often feels like I was understanding the world, and fixing my assumption.
I think Ursula Le Leguin's Earthsea series does this so well. The books fill their audience with so much wonder.Even though it is systematic in that you can't transform themselves into something else for too long for fear of losing your own name and having to learn the names of all the trees, rivers etc, yet they conserve a sense of mystery especially when it comes to the "higher" magic. Like how in the first book we can feel the tension that all the characters feel because nobody fully understands what is following Ged.
You are alluding to a other good point. It should be bound in the physical or physics. The spirit of things, like the personality of Ged's friend's sister is why her name is... Minnow or whatever. Its not something you can figure out from a chemical test. You gotta know her.
That and the danger of magic acting back or something similar. The thing following Ged had its own will.
Eragon's magic system is to me, the gold standard. It has heavy costs that discourages beginner mages from attempting dangerous experiments because if you cast a spell then you can't stop it midway. You need both an understanding of the Elvish language, the language that magic is spoken in, and an incredible understanding of how the world works aka, Science. Eragon himself almost dies trying to turn sand into drinkable water.
As an eragon fan, I totally agree.
this is my first tale foundry vid ive seen in a while anD HOLY CRAP YOU GUYS HAVE AN ANIMATED INTRO NOW OMGGGG IT LOOKS SO COOL IM SO HAPPYYYYYYY
You can have a complex magic system, but if you only introduced to a small portion of it at a time it will give that feeling of magic as you discover more and more as you encounter things which shouldn't be possible with what you already know
That's literally Harry Potter, he just pretended that wasn't the case. Problem is, like that series, if the writer doesn't give themselves rules from the start then you get bad writing like the time travel bs in book 3.
@@AlX-Anderharry potter is the most soft magic system ever made. There are no consistencies or rules. Even the spell names change from film to film.
@@dylanb2990 Yeah, which is what makes it bad for anyone who isn't ten. The core premise of the world is that it has such a well-understood hard system that there are schools for wizards. But she didn't actually come up with one, and adds in whatever random nonsense she wants because anything Harry doesn't know-- which is basically everything because he isn't very bright and makes no effort to understand magic more-- is fair game.
I admire this investigative view upon the relatively strong concept that makes a seemingly simple thing such as magic seem entirely and undefiningly enept as it is complex.
But that coming from are modern literature interpretation. But are ancestors seen magic as Framsynn and ofrskr magic to predict and see into the future and insights of distant Lands or other worlds.
Thul you would learn arcane magic through words to enable to cast spells
Shaman you would learn seidr foresee and spiritual magic.
Gandr
Hagvanda magic to control and manipulate the mind of people and creatures alike.
Hamfarir you would learn shapeshifting magic able to change and alter your appearance or form as you please.
landvættir spiritual magic to connect and manipulate the elements and land around
Vitkar you would learn runecraft able to embu it to a person or objects to enchant power of that runes symbol.
Rammaukinn magic to grant you enhance physical abilities.
Ofrskr
Gandr are user of magic through objects like totem, scroll and talisman.
Onmyouji you would learn to summoning and control aberrations.
Daoshi you would learn to use ofuda or paper tailman to cast spells.
Love the animation for your channel now. That was amazing! 👏🏿
I like to point back to the Young Wizards series as one of my favorite Hard Magic examples. In the second book the main characters are taking some people to the moon, and their passengers are confused as to why they have to worry about things like calculating the amount of energy needed for the 4 of them + Oxygen to reach escape velocity if it's magic.
The response is that ultimately magic is just another way of manipulating energy, they just get that energy from places that we don't understand and utilizes mystic principles (bring along a moon rock because it remembers the way back to where it came from) to keep it from becoming too bogged down in itself and making magic still feel magical.
I read Young Wizards around the same time I read Harry Potter, and I was almost so much more enchanted with Young Wizards because I felt like I could be a Wizard if I could somehow learn the Speech.
What I find interesting is that fantasy and sci-fi had been the same genre of speculative fiction.
Both of these genres can have stories placed onto the hard to soft system spectrum. It's often only setting and themes that differentiate fantasy and sci-fi, but many modern shows like Love Death + Robots and Arcane feel like they blur that like as they take elements and ques from across the entire speculative fiction genre.
One of the things I find that makes a magic system feel "magical" is when it's a system that acknowledges that it has rules, but those rules aren't set in stone but rather what's safest to the caster. Sure you can write out the runes for a fireball to cast it, but if you play with the shapes even alittle, suddenly things could get dangerously out of hand. It let's those constrained by the rules bend them in a moment of great need without it being an otherwise "impossible act only the chosen one could do".
That's precisely what i like about the Dresden Files book series! While it's far from perfect and i can't ever recommend it to someone who isn't really into action heavy fantasy written by Men (TM), it's one of my favourite book series and 100% hits the spot when it comes to this balance of magic rules vs "breaking" the rules, introducing changes in the system, different powers to the ones of the protagonists which have different limitations etc. The protagonist isn't simply able to overpower all danger, he isn't even particularly skilled in most areas of magic. But he knows to plan and play to his strengths, make meaningful connections to characters with other abilities, and brings permanent consequences to his own life by breaking the rules of "safety" or "practicioner's common sense". Sometimes the sacrifices that will have to be made are known exactly, sometimes they are just a vague blob of "nobody would dare to risk with that". And it's usually pulled off pretty well! Most of the time each book leaves me with the feeling of "oh no we got through that but at what cost".
that's kind of overdone too. Reminds me of Eragon, lmao, and as bad as the books are in retrospect the magic system was pretty cool and the consequences were basically immediate death for any fuck ups.
10:03 which is exactly why i love science, as a fantasy reader. The understanding of it doesn't take away the magical feel, as both science and magic are the same.
Your animation reminds me of an old movie I watched. It's called 9. Something eerie yet comforting about it.
I found that using both in a world kind of enhances each. like if you have a systemized hard magic system the world revolves around it gives it a flavor and then introduce some unknown eldritch magic the known becomes comfortable and accepted while the unknown feels even more unknown.
its a sort of "if you could understand that why cant you understand this???" moment
PLEASE tell me you have any specific media in mind that you could recommend for this, I'd live to read/watch something with this portrayal of magic!! Reading this comment alone gives me so much exitement :D
@@throughcolouredglasses9300 Witcher 3: Hearts of Stone. In the base game, we meet a lot of mages, and magic involves speaking strange words, wind and particle effects. It's small and local. Then in HoS, we meet a character who just... does stuff. He seems to be responsible for a storm. He appears and disappears at will. He can stop time and play with fate in ways that no "mere" mage can do. All without the dramatic posing, ancient words and particle effects associated with mages.
ie quantom physics. if you think you know quantom Physics you dont know it.
Before I start watching, I want to say something. I think I've said this before but the reason some magical systems don't feel magical is because 1) there isn't an air of impossibility to them, a feeling that it is something that anyone can achieve or do. 2) there isn't a air of mystery to it, that it isn't esoteric and difficult to understand that only the brightest minds who have studied and mastered this power can do. And 3) that it isn't grounded in some sort of reality or rule set, that the results of invoking magic is without limitations that the caster knows and understands and can do anything he or she desires.
I think that is why when you build a magic system you have to set the rules, limits, and boundaries of the system and then the author must choose what to tell the audience. Much in the way a practical magician knows the trick and purposely does not reveal the secret.
I think the beat way to present magic is a hard magic system that appears to be soft.
Edit: 5 minutes in and I am dang near close.
As Sanderson shows, you can also take a hard magic system and then keep adding new rules to it while pretending they were there all along. I guess that makes it a "Firm" magic system?
Are really world myths and the culture of magic is like a magic system. The ones he Invision are modern literature magic with all powerful and undefined and irremacciable.
Framsynn and ofrskr magic to predict and see into the future and insights of distant Lands or other worlds.
Thul you would learn arcane magic through words to enable to cast spells
Shaman you would learn seidr foresee and spiritual magic.
Gandr
Hagvanda magic to control and manipulate the mind of people and creatures alike.
Hamfarir you would learn shapeshifting magic able to change and alter your appearance or form as you please.
landvættir spiritual magic to connect and manipulate the elements and land around
Vitkar you would learn runecraft able to embu it to a person or objects to enchant power of that runes symbol.
Rammaukinn magic to grant you enhance physical abilities.
Ofrskr
Gandr are user of magic through objects like totem, scroll and talisman.
Onmyouji you would learn to summoning and control aberrations.
Daoshi you would learn to use ofuda or paper tailman to cast spells.
Good and helpful points.
@@ultimaxkom8728 I just wonder why people get upset when magic able to be define, an energy source that's mama, chi, aura, Chara or others.
@@majesticgothitelle1802 Who's upset with defined magical energy sources? I never heard of them.
I'm loving this! The sci-fi elements in this music are spot-on. It's a perfect blend of futuristic sounds and melodies that immerse me in a sci-fi world. I can't get enough of it😍😍
I was very excited to see this video in my recommendations because I am absolutely OBSESSED with magic systems in media and their, as you mentioned, lack of magic. I'm always searching for games and movies that manage to make their magic actually FEEL magical and figuring out what makes it work and what doesn't
Interestingly enough I found that magic in its mystery still requires some sort of rules within the worldbuilding to feel truly magical, which sounds like a paradox in of itself.
But magic quickly loses its value and becomes boring to the audience if there are no limitations to it. If you for example are able to do anything with it on a whim, shrinking people, shape-shifting, creating objects and creatures out of thin air - not to mention solving every possible problem the protagonist might be facing - then it falls flat and loses all its meaning due to a lack of rules and limitations.
The magic lies in there still being a system, but one that is beyond our comprehension.
It can be powerful, yes, world-destroying even. But can everyone achieve it? Is it hard to take a hold of? Does it have a conscious on its own?
It is a delicate balance of knowing something and nothing at all at the same time, creating a magic that feels REAL within its own world while still being otherworldly. The worldbuilding plays a huge role in my opinion if the magic ends up feeling convincing. Establishing the role of the magic, how it is intertwined with the world while still feeling Alien, ceating guidelines, limits, traits, while still keeping a sense of mystery, having a vague idea of what it is capable of or how it works without ever fully understanding the why and how - All of this is incredibly hard to balance, which is why there's only a handful of movies or games I'd be able to think of off the top of my head, that have a convincing sense of magic.
But it's because of this complexity and difficulty that it is no doubt one of my favorite topics to discuss as an Author, who herself keeps fighting and struggling to bring a convincing sense of magic and enchantment to her books about dragons the size of a bug.
Love the discussion this video provides!
I love the hard-magic type of worlds because they deal with a power that can be wielded individually by people, although it does have a lot of rules and kind of mimics how science works sometimes, it still feels like a breeze of fresh air because science in most cases cannot be done entirely by ourselves and without proper equipment, but the magic in these worlds can be explored by a single person and reach stages unimaginable to most people at the end of the road. It deals with the feeling of being shackled by society in the real world, which doesn’t let you do anything without relying on someone else, and instead lets you imagine individuals who can wield anything in the palm of their hands.
I haven't felt genuine draw to magic since I recently rewatched Howl Moving Castle. The last time I watched it was close to a decade ago when I was a child. It truly felt magical and spontaneous, it felt like there was rules in the world, but still that it was unknown to me as the viewer, and it kept that spark throughout.
Miyazaki nails that sense of wonder in most of his works imo
I felt the same way watching Arietty a few years ago
I've had this same discussion recently about what it means to "forbid magic" as a matter of religious or moral code. "Magic" is ultimately an abstract term used to describe things we don't fully understand (on a foundational, "rational reality" level; this video does an excellent job of explaining that merely lacking expertise is not the same thing). Nobody in the "Fullmetal Alchemist" series would describe alchemy as magic, because alchemy has clearly defined rules with fixed outcomes, accepted within their reality. Even non-Alchemists who are at least familiar with the concept. However, they also have their own version of the "don't mess with what you don't understand" tenant in their forbidding the use of alchemy to manipulate human souls rather than simply matter.
Or to put it another way, we in the modern world know that airplanes are not magical, but anyone who believes that they are, shouldn't be messing with the wings of the aircraft. It's certainly true that experimentation is necessary to expand our knowledge, but we have to understand that the thing we are experimenting with is rational, has specific outcomes that are expected, has other outcomes that are likely if things go wrong, and therefore allow us to predict what safeguards we must realistically put in place. "Magic" does not allow for any of that.
Love your channel ! Hope you'll continue