Pointing to "Biden's reckless policy of its first year in office" is especially rich since the Haitians in Springfield settled there under the TPS that TRUMP Administration provided in 2018.
They asked for immigrants, they expected immigrants, they got immigrants. So any "strain" on public services is not caused by immigrants, but by bad public policy failing to deal with the city growth they asked for and were expecting.
Yeah !!!! They asked for ten or twelve million migrants !!!! They allowed this , the entire media humiliated themselves for last 45 months by not showing this insanity , mentioning it and in my opinion almost working with or helping the Biden White House to lie to us and disgrace themselves… And then it got soooooo insane that not even our corp media could cover it up and when they now report on it - it’s somehow about trump or Vance or something a Republican said while literally sucking D and going even lower just to blow now the Harris campaign???? This is disgraceful on so my levels. They are so bent over and think people are so stupid or equally pathetic as they are that we don’t notice that the “.most transparent” admin ever hid covered up and blatantly lied for 4 years in a row and thought it was fine cause they knew how the New York Times and the whores at MSNBC would help ??? No one is this ignorant or pathetic.
A couple of the hosts touched on this briefly, but the issue in Springfield (and also as noted, by extension, the rest of the country) is fundamentally tied to affordable housing and the funding (or the inadequate levels) of social services like schools and healthcare. Generally, conservatives have fought against these as well, again choosing to not be part of the solution, and instead cynically using the dysfunction for their campaign strategy.
Democrats are largely responsible for the housing crisis; and have certainly played a helping hand in failing education policy. Not to mention that just avoids the fact that a population increase being faster than infrastructure can keep up with is destined to cause problems regardless of your policies. It’s a set of long term policies and decisions, that can’t respond to short term issues.
Thank you for a real non biased conversation regarding this issue. Most Americans are tired of extremism and just want real practical and effective solutions that lead to the prosperity of us all. We need to compromise and find a middle ground. Thank you NYT!!
While I always appreciate all perspectives here, I think something else is important to note: the COVID and post-COVID effect on global migration. I don’t think it’s fair to lay all of the blame at Biden’s feet (much like it’s not fair to lay inflation at his feet).
The emergency covid measures, Title 42, starting under trump and ending under Biden is a huge change. We went almost 2 years with NO immigration, legal or otherwise. Of course we're going to see a huge surge. If the GOP wants to criticize ending title 42 covid measure go ahead but that backlog is why we're seeing such a big increase, not anything Biden did or didn't do past that. To increase capacity to process them, we needed more budget and personnel and they resisted any effort to do that and killed their own bill when the Democrats finally threw in the towel on dreamers and agreed to pass it. All because Trump wanted to campaign on a chaotic border. It's ridiculous that they think this is a winning issue for them.
Not being a Historian but being a very well read person what most people don't know or remember is Haitian soldiers and sailors helped making tbe U.S.A. the United States. They fought alongside us to defeat Britain. Just stating facts that is well documented. But after the Revolution they White Men in aurhority said Thank You and sent them back to Haiti. Because in what they didn't want Free Black People to stay here and influence enslaved Black People and have a revolt against Slave Owners.
The central issue with open borders is that it lowers working-class wages, undermines their bargaining power, and exacerbates inequality. This entire discussion ignores these issues.
Thank you for this thoughtful podcast by Ross and Carlos. I appreciate your consideration of multiple sides to this issue. Lydia continues with the progressive word salad spoken in exaggerated upspeak. I agree with her that immigration is central to America and is a positive thing. But Ross and Carlos present the arguments in a way that is easily understood and convincing.
Another aspect you could have touched on is the misery that Vance is causing towards the immigrants. His false rhetoric and lies lead directly to insults, mistreatment, bomb threats - he's a direct cause of harm to these people already, and we can only hope it doesn't turn into worse outcomes.
An estimated 73% of agriculture workers today were born outside of the United States. What would happen to food prices if we didn't have them??? Supporting Vance, Trump arguments are simply irresponsible.
His head is thoroughly up his ass. The leadership at the Times has to understand, their aging readership base is going away day by day, and continued publishing of Brooks and Douthat and Died ECT. is driving away any chance the under 55 can trust them as "The Paper Of Record". There's too many other choices vying for our money. Change or die NYT.
non-democratically? The TPS was passed under Trump and the immigrants (mostly) arrived under Biden. Both the last two Presidents led to this. Also, immigrants aren't "assigned" a state or a town to go settle in. Some go there, find a nice life, and their social network spreads this info to other immigrants. We don't have laws to force immigrants to live somewhere, its a social solution.
Not interested in hearing your inside jokes and sarcastic laughter. This was a private conversation amongst friends that shouldn't be a podcast, especially from the NY Times.
Yes, he didn't confess but since one of his staffers has checked with the mayor's office and has been informed that the story wasn't true we can safely assume that he knew that he was lying! He just doesn't care.
I wish we could get to the place where we had genuine compassion for the plight of immigrants. They would not be coming here if conditions in their own countries were favorable. Much of which is due to US policies.
What is trump's immigration policy? How many immigrants does he say we will take? What is his border policy? He defeated the border bill that will improve the situation because he thought it would hurt his campaign.
For what it is worth: Harris will probably have policy that does not quite align with yours- but Trump will have no policy, but he will have vibes. Immigration for Harris is a major thorn in her side, which means out of political necessity she will certainly be much more hawkish than Biden has been. There's a lot that could be elaborated on there, but Harris has already reoriented the Democrat position on immigration far from the progressive humanitarian 2016 message and toward hardness, toward bipartisan policymaking, and toward international diplomacy. Trump's message has stayed the same: the country is in a constant state of implosion because of migrants, other countries are weaponizing migrants against us, he might use the military. Mileage may vary, but policy tends to have lasting effects, vibes only last for a term. If you're oriented toward "we're imploding, we're imploding", maybe you go Trump. If you're oriented toward a holistic approach to reducing immigration, I think Harris is it.
For what it's worth to someone who I assume is voting single-issue on immigration: to Trump's credit, he *has* succeeded in shifting the whole window of acceptable positions on immigration toward hawkishness, most notably for Democrats. But that success does not mean that he has solutions to problems. Often the right person to declare a problem is the wrong person to solve it, and that is the case for Trump. He doesn't have immigration policy, he has immigration vibes. Vibes alone can slow immigration- making the US feel like an unwelcome place will have a limited and temporary effect. But still the underlying factors for tremendous legal and illegal immigration will remain, still the matter of tens of millions of undocumented workers will remain, still the problem of our diplomatic relations with Mexico who fails to police her own borders will remain, still the problem of terribly understaffed and undersupported logistics to process legal migrants and swiftly turn detainees will remain. If you have no love for Trump, then I think you know he isn't someone who can think very seriously about these things. Harris probably can, but you're concerned she'll go the wrong way with it. I think it's certain that Harris will be far more hawkish than Biden has been on immigration, in part because Trump succeeded in shifting the window far away from where Democrats were in 2016 or 2020 and toward hawkishness, but also exactly because immigration has been such a thorn in her side that she will need to deliver substantive policy wins on immigration. If Harris wins, you can expect at minimum Congress to revisit the bipartisan immigration bill, unhampered by Trump's politicking. In short: if you're single-issue on the border, and you feel like the sky is falling right now and you aren't thinking even a little about immigration eight to ten years from now, let alone two decades, then Trump probably is your guy. If you want to see foreign and domestic policy pivot on immigration, more substantively but less dramatically than Trump, and what happens right now with immigration is as important as what we're doing eight to ten years from now, I think Harris is the right choice.
Pointing to "Biden's reckless policy of its first year in office" is especially rich since the Haitians in Springfield settled there under the TPS that TRUMP Administration provided in 2018.
Completely ignoring the fact at hand… lmao
They asked for immigrants, they expected immigrants, they got immigrants. So any "strain" on public services is not caused by immigrants, but by bad public policy failing to deal with the city growth they asked for and were expecting.
They did not ask for 20,000 immigrants. Not sure why you think this
Yeah !!!! They asked for ten or twelve million migrants !!!! They allowed this , the entire media humiliated themselves for last 45 months by not showing this insanity , mentioning it and in my opinion almost working with or helping the Biden White House to lie to us and disgrace themselves…
And then it got soooooo insane that not even our corp media could cover it up and when they now report on it - it’s somehow about trump or Vance or something a Republican said while literally sucking D and going even lower just to blow now the Harris campaign????
This is disgraceful on so my levels. They are so bent over and think people are so stupid or equally pathetic as they are that we don’t notice that the “.most transparent” admin ever hid covered up and blatantly lied for 4 years in a row and thought it was fine cause they knew how the New York Times and the whores at MSNBC would help ???
No one is this ignorant or pathetic.
Absolutely
A couple of the hosts touched on this briefly, but the issue in Springfield (and also as noted, by extension, the rest of the country) is fundamentally tied to affordable housing and the funding (or the inadequate levels) of social services like schools and healthcare. Generally, conservatives have fought against these as well, again choosing to not be part of the solution, and instead cynically using the dysfunction for their campaign strategy.
Democrats are largely responsible for the housing crisis; and have certainly played a helping hand in failing education policy. Not to mention that just avoids the fact that a population increase being faster than infrastructure can keep up with is destined to cause problems regardless of your policies. It’s a set of long term policies and decisions, that can’t respond to short term issues.
Well if it isn’t the consequences of my own actions.
- Fundamental GOP talking point
Thank you for a real non biased conversation regarding this issue. Most Americans are tired of extremism and just want real practical and effective solutions that lead to the prosperity of us all. We need to compromise and find a middle ground. Thank you NYT!!
While I always appreciate all perspectives here, I think something else is important to note: the COVID and post-COVID effect on global migration. I don’t think it’s fair to lay all of the blame at Biden’s feet (much like it’s not fair to lay inflation at his feet).
The emergency covid measures, Title 42, starting under trump and ending under Biden is a huge change. We went almost 2 years with NO immigration, legal or otherwise. Of course we're going to see a huge surge. If the GOP wants to criticize ending title 42 covid measure go ahead but that backlog is why we're seeing such a big increase, not anything Biden did or didn't do past that. To increase capacity to process them, we needed more budget and personnel and they resisted any effort to do that and killed their own bill when the Democrats finally threw in the towel on dreamers and agreed to pass it. All because Trump wanted to campaign on a chaotic border. It's ridiculous that they think this is a winning issue for them.
The Hatian Pet libel is actually mild. The Trump Hannibal Lecter thing is actually his way of saying that immigrants are cannibals.
Leave it to Ross Douthat to pin everything on Biden and excuse every Republican of any amount of responsibility they actually hold on the situation.
Not being a Historian but being a very well read person what most people don't know or remember is Haitian soldiers and sailors helped making tbe U.S.A. the United States. They fought alongside us to defeat Britain. Just stating facts that is well documented. But after the Revolution they White Men in aurhority said Thank You and sent them back to Haiti. Because in what they didn't want Free Black People to stay here and influence enslaved Black People and have a revolt against Slave Owners.
Isn't ohio a red state and aren't rgey responsible for making sure local policies work for their constituents.
douthat the only redeeming part of this conversation
The central issue with open borders is that it lowers working-class wages, undermines their bargaining power, and exacerbates inequality. This entire discussion ignores these issues.
Ross is such a Heel
I am having a hard time to listen to Carlos, he simply fails to see the bigger picture!! That's sad.
Ross Douthat is an intellectual lightweight.
"Miss Sassy" is the lost cat's name.
Thank you for this thoughtful podcast by Ross and Carlos. I appreciate your consideration of multiple sides to this issue.
Lydia continues with the progressive word salad spoken in exaggerated upspeak. I agree with her that immigration is central to America and is a positive thing.
But Ross and Carlos present the arguments in a way that is easily understood and convincing.
Vance has some kind of cat fixation.
Another aspect you could have touched on is the misery that Vance is causing towards the immigrants. His false rhetoric and lies lead directly to insults, mistreatment, bomb threats - he's a direct cause of harm to these people already, and we can only hope it doesn't turn into worse outcomes.
Carlos, do you at all look at the economic impact of immigrants, especially in Springfiled? Or are you just making an intellectual argument??
the rest is not worth listening to....
you can just listen to the whole thing and process it before just vomiting words.
An estimated 73% of agriculture workers today were born outside of the United States. What would happen to food prices if we didn't have them??? Supporting Vance, Trump arguments are simply irresponsible.
I wonder how long mass deportations will last when the hotel, ag, and restaurant industries start to collapse.
Racism
Absolutely!
Politicized racism.
Why do you have a Ross Asshat on what would, otherwise, be a reasonable podcast???
How can Ross Douthat continue to carry water for Vance after everything this campeign has done, not to mention Trump himself?
His head is thoroughly up his ass. The leadership at the Times has to understand, their aging readership base is going away day by day, and continued publishing of Brooks and Douthat and Died ECT. is driving away any chance the under 55 can trust them as "The Paper Of Record". There's too many other choices vying for our money. Change or die NYT.
Ross is Catholic.
I think he directionally agrees with MAGA. Just not as extreme. He's a few grievances from being Tucker Carlson 15 years from now.
@@sausy_boi667 it makes him feel like a real American lol
I totally agree
Thousands and thousands have just been dumped non democratically into a small town with almost no means to handle it. Of course there’s backlash.
non-democratically? The TPS was passed under Trump and the immigrants (mostly) arrived under Biden. Both the last two Presidents led to this. Also, immigrants aren't "assigned" a state or a town to go settle in. Some go there, find a nice life, and their social network spreads this info to other immigrants. We don't have laws to force immigrants to live somewhere, its a social solution.
Remember when 50 migrants showed up to Martha’s Vineyard? They were escorted out by coastal elites within 24 hours.
@@Jay-OSRSthey were actually escorted to shelters and taken care of.
Who brought those Haitians into the small town?
@@joe_dns4625lol taken to shelters, you talk about immigrants like they are dogs
Not interested in hearing your inside jokes and sarcastic laughter. This was a private conversation amongst friends that shouldn't be a podcast, especially from the NY Times.
I think all these people need to work in a sweatshop factory for about six months and then come back and talk
Just one more find TRUMP Supporter🤡 .
🤭🤭🤭
Thank you for making that distinction about Vance’s “confession.” I am not voting for Trump-Vance but twisting words of any candidate is not helpful.
Yes, he didn't confess but since one of his staffers has checked with the mayor's office and has been informed that the story wasn't true we can safely assume that he knew that he was lying! He just doesn't care.
@@haraldfuchs8196 I agree!
I wish we could get to the place where we had genuine compassion for the plight of immigrants. They would not be coming here if conditions in their own countries were favorable. Much of which is due to US policies.
I don’t think he “confessed.” He accidentally told the truth.
F
F
Final fantasy
I've got no love for trump but I am voting for him because the Harris/Biden border and immigration policies are horrendous.
And the human rights violations, logistical chaos and partisan throttling of progress that Trump did/will do is definitely going to improve things.
What is trump's immigration policy? How many immigrants does he say we will take? What is his border policy? He defeated the border bill that will improve the situation because he thought it would hurt his campaign.
There are fewer immigrants coming in now than when Trump left office.
For what it is worth: Harris will probably have policy that does not quite align with yours- but Trump will have no policy, but he will have vibes. Immigration for Harris is a major thorn in her side, which means out of political necessity she will certainly be much more hawkish than Biden has been. There's a lot that could be elaborated on there, but Harris has already reoriented the Democrat position on immigration far from the progressive humanitarian 2016 message and toward hardness, toward bipartisan policymaking, and toward international diplomacy. Trump's message has stayed the same: the country is in a constant state of implosion because of migrants, other countries are weaponizing migrants against us, he might use the military.
Mileage may vary, but policy tends to have lasting effects, vibes only last for a term. If you're oriented toward "we're imploding, we're imploding", maybe you go Trump. If you're oriented toward a holistic approach to reducing immigration, I think Harris is it.
For what it's worth to someone who I assume is voting single-issue on immigration: to Trump's credit, he *has* succeeded in shifting the whole window of acceptable positions on immigration toward hawkishness, most notably for Democrats. But that success does not mean that he has solutions to problems. Often the right person to declare a problem is the wrong person to solve it, and that is the case for Trump. He doesn't have immigration policy, he has immigration vibes. Vibes alone can slow immigration- making the US feel like an unwelcome place will have a limited and temporary effect. But still the underlying factors for tremendous legal and illegal immigration will remain, still the matter of tens of millions of undocumented workers will remain, still the problem of our diplomatic relations with Mexico who fails to police her own borders will remain, still the problem of terribly understaffed and undersupported logistics to process legal migrants and swiftly turn detainees will remain.
If you have no love for Trump, then I think you know he isn't someone who can think very seriously about these things. Harris probably can, but you're concerned she'll go the wrong way with it. I think it's certain that Harris will be far more hawkish than Biden has been on immigration, in part because Trump succeeded in shifting the window far away from where Democrats were in 2016 or 2020 and toward hawkishness, but also exactly because immigration has been such a thorn in her side that she will need to deliver substantive policy wins on immigration. If Harris wins, you can expect at minimum Congress to revisit the bipartisan immigration bill, unhampered by Trump's politicking.
In short: if you're single-issue on the border, and you feel like the sky is falling right now and you aren't thinking even a little about immigration eight to ten years from now, let alone two decades, then Trump probably is your guy. If you want to see foreign and domestic policy pivot on immigration, more substantively but less dramatically than Trump, and what happens right now with immigration is as important as what we're doing eight to ten years from now, I think Harris is the right choice.
23:40 Ross- not just white working class.