Glad I watched this bumped up the hot water to 60C on my combi. Been running an experiment with 24/7 central heating at lower temperatures. 1929 semi 9" solid walls with double glazing, loft insulation, Worcester Bosch boiler 4 years old. Before I'd let the house cool down at night but then I'd have to run the radiators really hot at about 78C to heat up the house quickly enough in the daytime. I'm now running the rads at 57C 24/7 to maintain 20C and the house stays warm enough even through the minus temps we've recently had. It's also more pleasant to not have really hot radiators if you're nearby and less condensation just need to use thinner duvets. Oct-Nov last year was £180, Oct-Nov this year £165 Flexible Octopus tariff same which is the real surprise I'm able to keep the house warm 24/7 for roughly the same cost.
The price per kWh is much lower this year to last so that's why you're spending roughly the same. I'd say youre probably using 50% or more kWh of gas though; check your bill for your energy consumption.
Fantastic video Roger, there's a dire need for independent, informed and up-to-date information on heating and I think your video was very fair, balanced and informative.
Great Podcast Roger. Last year with tthe increase in energy prices I turned my attention to the efficiency of my heating system. A couple of things helped me make improvements. Firstly understanding that when we heat the house we are simply replacing heat that has been lost, and that rate of loss is of course geater when it is colder outside. Understanding this helps you focus on how to reduce this loss (insulation, drafts, reducing the heating in unused rooms etc.). The second thing was understanding that our "efficient" condensing bolier only has an efficiency gain over a non-condensing boiler (max 88%) when the temperature of the return water is less than 54 deg C and to get efficencies up to the 93/94% level the return temperature needs to be about 40 deg. The difference between flow and return in my system is 12-15 deg C so I needed to run my boiler with a flow temperature of about 55 deg C which corresponded to a setting of 68 deg C on my boiler. This would have posed a Legionella risk so I also installed a smart immersion heater (Tesla-Smart) which schedules a weekly sanitisation run for me. After all the effort I was only able to reduce my gas consumption by 5-6%
Roger you are the best. Keep up the good work. Simple answers, unswayed by anyone. We need more people like this. I love the rants too! Also, a proper tradesman, just look at his hands. He does the work, not just the talk.
Roger, great video as always. We bought a brand new build house (4 bed detached), we expected it would be well insulated but it’s not. The house starts cooling down after a few hours so turning the heating off isn’t an option. Contacted the builder (Bloor homes) and their response was that the heating needs to remain on at 19 degrees minimum permanently. We keep it on at 18 but it costs about £200 a month to heat. Looking back, it was a crazy assumption to make that a new build is well insulated, they’re not!
They absolutely have to meet regulations, and those regulations should be good enough to give you a warm house.... get it looked into - if it's new, it'll all be covered still.
@@johnadams1976 Thanks, appreciate the comment. After a lot of hassle with their ‘customer care’ they did send a surveyor and they poked inside the cavity but confirmed it was up to scratch, then someone came out with a tool to visibly check heat loss. They put some more insulation in the loft but this didn’t really do anything. I think a lot of it has to do with the window vents being a thin bit of plastic that makes the windows drafty, I did consider filling this in entirely but they need to be there under regs to prevent condensation (not that they do). It’s annoying but there are a lot of people who have it much worse than we do or can’t even afford to heat their homes.
Roger is being so polite about the industry. When govt. grants appear contractor cowboys appear, we all know the sort of contractor, probably started by selling double glazing in the early 1980s before moving on to insulation (first loft insulation, then cavity wall insulation, then external insulation, now some are going back to cavity wall insulation) and now into solar panels, heat pumps etc. My problem with heat pumps is similar to Roger's. When I go to bed I want my bedroom to be a little under 20C (18.5C is just about ideal), but because of the way my house was designed (in the 1960s) as long as there is a little bit of sum, the first floor, which we rarely use in the day and has the bedrooms, will be warmer than the ground floor. I am not against heat pumps, once I finish upgrading all insulation and windows in the house and installing solar panels, I will get a heat pump but only if I can have a system that is flexible enough to allow me to control each room separately
It’s my understanding its not just about being on or off 24/7, its about optimising output for your boilers condensing function. Ie lowering the temperature of the water output, ideally enough that the boiler can run at its lower rating (ie mines 7kwh) vs full pelt (35kwh). Roger, id love a video on this though, is there a way to know if its running efficiently?
Hi Roger, as always sound advice, when I was installing heating, the biggest problem, was educating the elderly, I could tell them till I was blue in the face, about using the controls, example your thermostatic valves are not a volume switch, No 1, is not warm, and number 5 isn't the hot , I lost count of the number times I had reset timeclocks, bless them
I have air-2-air R32 system, its been -10 here for 3 days and it struggles. It's important to remember that even heat pumps are governed by the laws of thermodynamics, they have their place when its above 4 degrees and preferably wet but when you need it most at -10 then unless your house is a sealed box you're going to be cold. Hybrid is the way to go imo, keep your boiler and fit air-2-air save on install costs and having to mess with your pipe work rads etc and get the same effect.
Comes down to system design and the temperature it's designed for. Many Air to Air units do lose some heat output as the temperature gets lower, there are some that retain it to -15C (e.g. the Mitsubishi Hyper Heating). My Air to Air setup works fine for my house even in -14C, which happened on Saturday, and the house was still 21C - have two Toshiba Daiseikai 9.5s (one 25, and one 35), and a Hitachi Yutampo Twin. Giving me a combined heat output of just over 13kW at -15C.
@@BenIsInSweden I think it comes down really to the amount of enthalpy, if it was 5% humidity then there is less energy in the air to absorb than 90% but you will defrost more frequently. R32 systems cannot get around the fact that the gas doesnt want to boil at -10 ambient, if in your setup there was a -35 degrees on the condenser then that's pretty close to sending liquid into the compressor and efficiency will be a little over 1 which is why you may as well have supplementary heating sources. There are limitations with all systems.
@@zmirc insulation only affects heating requirement, not whether a heat pump will struggle or not. If it struggles, it's undersized for the heating load at the outside temperature. Either needs a bigger unit or a secondary unit to meet the demand.
Good video Roger. I have been through the insulation in my house and found all the gaps including using a thermal camera. It is nearly up to current Building Regs. I have a 30kw boiler for a 5 bed house. It is well oversized now. I only really use the 12kw log burner which is enough to heat the whole house even at -3 degs last week. It does take a little time to get it up to temp from cold. However it will run for hours when shut up often running all night burst back up in the morning when opened up again. Gas is mainly used for hot water heating. I looked at a heat pump for heating hot water but the cop is only 2.5 at best for this application so much cheaper on gas and likely faster to heat up. I do have solar and use spare solar power for water heating in summer. I am not looking at air to air heat pumps for a couple of main rooms. These can be used in milder days to provide heating still getting a decent COP. When it is too cold I would just go back to the log burner. With modern houses and gas demand for hot water being much greater than heating you have to question the economics of the heat pump. Even with a heat pump you many need to use direct electric heating to get the water temp up.
Currently im running my valliant boiler with 35c flow temp left on 24/7 with stat set to 18c. My aim for next year is to fit the drayton wiser smart thermostat to add some weather compensation in and the smart trvs. Weather comp has the potential to lower our flow temp and bills even more.
I don't shut the bedroom windows until it gets below 4C. Hate a hot bedroom. Trouble with the house is that I have it at 14C most of the day as I'm in my studio, goes up to 19C at 2 as my son finishes work and is home at 3, but when it rains too much, he's not working, so I'm always adjusting the temp. He's fine with a jumper.
Excellent video, really insightful! Got solar panels installed this year, to go with the geothermal system. Now producing 70% of our own energy, and can even run off-grid late into October
Im very lucky my house even being a 60s council house is pretty well insulated. I leave heating on 24/7 at 20c costs about £3 a day. I think its had cavity according to theepc and hasalso got a well insulated loft. I use a dehumidifier a damp house costs more to heat plus you gain a small amount of heat from the dehumidifier.
Hi, Roger. I appreciate your no-nonsense approach to the subject of home heating. I think that insulating one’s house must likely be the most important step to take toward making improvements to the heating. With that in mind, maybe you could show people how best to insulate their homes, taking into account that there is a vast array of properties built at various times with different materials and methods. E.g. a 1950’s ex council house, which may have cavity walls that has subsequently had the cavity insulated. I wonder if there’s any more that can be done to improve the quality of insulation. A friend of mine has had more insulation installed on the outer skin of his house. Do you think this is a good idea? Or can this create long term complications. Your thoughts, maybe a more in depth discussion of the pro’s and cons of certain types of insulation, would be beneficial to many of your followers.
also needed is air circulation, no good blocking all drafts and walls if you then are always dozey due to high c02 and lack of fresh air. something a passive house should also think about if there dreams are to create there perfect home as it can save headache doing solutions at the same time if there doing other things
Just for information, in my 1990's house I've found by trial and error that setting the boiler flow to 65 C minus the coldest outside temperature that day works reasonably well if the system is left running 24/7 (a heat pump like scenario). Its no good for a quick warm up, taking a few hours to bring the house up to temperature. Its only takes seconds to change the setting on the boiler so its easy to do each day and gives the benefits of a weather compensation system without the cost. Conclusion - my radiators are too small to work with a heat pump so would need to be upgraded (and probably my microbore pipes as well). In situations like this, a hybrid system retaining my current boiler would seem to be way to go. Surprised that the industry isn't advertising these more widely.
Another great video. I can’t seem to see the links to the boiler types that have two different water temperatures in the description. Currently going through a large renovation and it might be perfect timing.
Roger is it worth turning the flow down on a system boiler i cant dictate the temperature between the water and the heating and its currently at 70. I dont like the idea of dropping it with young children and legionnaires. My mums heat pump is constantly at 50 and you cant change the temp separately between the water and the radiators and i cant work out a way to get it to raise every so often to kill bacteria without doing it manually.
Large hot water boilers only need to be heated up once a day. You can safe a lot using as small as possible boiler with low electrical power like 1800w and only for example to shower and bathroom depending on distances. Place it on a timer and if possible on low cost time like at night.. You can safe half the bill that way on the boiler. For
Great video Roger as always. I'm due a boiler change (mine is nearly 50 years old!). I shall be looking at the dual output boilers you mentioned. A combi wouldn't suit me as the boiler is fairly remote in the house and would take ages to get hot water through. My HW tank is central and works well. Thanks again.
My combi is positioned where the immersion used to be . Its flued up through the roof . They don't have to go on an outside wall (1948 ex council mid terraced)
Dual output boilers work best with something called Hot water Priority... Have a look on the UA-cam channel Urban Plumbers Essentially, your boiler normally runs cool flow temps for max efficiency, but then if hot water cylinder needs to be recharged, your heating turns off, your boiler ramps up to maximum and recharges your cylinder in 20mins or less, giving virtually unlimited hot water like a combi (as you're unlikely to drain the whole cylinder in less than 20mins)
I googled Legionnaires and Combi boilers the other day, the ‘official’ answer seems to be ‘virtually impossible to get Legionnaires from a Combi’. As regards the shower head, even if Combi set to 60C, the head will likely never see more than 40C due to mixing. But on a water tank system, definitely need to keep it’s temperature up.
@@SkillBuilder I’m suggesting that running a Combi at lower than 50C on hot water is not likely to cause legionnaires if used daily, there’s no water storage for it to bread. and the shower head would likely not see 60C anyway, even if Combi water set at 60C due to likely always being mixed down with cold. So really the legionnaires issue is for stored water systems, no?
@@over-engineeredstorage tanks typically have an electric immersion element as well with a separate temp control. Just need to time a monthly run to 70C to kill any nasties. Non issue.
I have a Vaillant boiler and most rooms have radiators that are 20-50% oversized, to allow us to run them at less than the surface temperature of the sun. Vaillant sell a system that allows integration of heat pumps, which would run the water and home hearing for probably around half to three quarters of the days when heating is required. We also have a solar diverter, but this gives less benefit now we have an EV and a PHEV. Not worried about grants, money is pretty solid right now, but would you bother with the heat pump multiplexer? I think Vaillant is unlikely to go tits up in the near future.
MIL had a house built for minimum heating, not Passivhaus but close. Air source heat pump, one wood burner, MVHR. 4kVA solar, EV, all electric cooking, and a storage battery. She has a *negative* electricity bill. Brilliant, but fabulously expensive - if achievable at all - on a retrofit.
I have never seen an oil boiler that will give you the option of different temperatures for hot water and heating. However, overall, great advice Roger.
I was just researching this very topic today after watching your video with heat geek! I didn't realise there was dual output boilers for stored water. I was trying to find something along the lines of a controller that changes the target set point once a week to kill of all bacteria. Looking to keep a hot water cylinder instead of a combi to allow me to install an eddi to make use of pv power. Is it also an option to use a heat exchange so that the water going to your taps isn't the water from your tank, just heated via the tank so that the water sitting at 50C is only a small amount of water that is ran regularly
We will be doing a video very soon on that very subject. They aren;t cheap to run so a heat pump could be better but they are a quick swap. Electric combis are terrible.
what is stopping me from buying a small pool heater heat pump. and using it to heat my house. I live in a mobile. I plan to put down underfloor heating. If i install the underfloor heating. will it work.
What's your views on a Wiser Control System ? Reason I ask is I installed one 5 years ago, so all 9 radiators have a temp control valve. So I can control temperature in each room. I can also remotely control heating when I am away from my property which I find helpful. So if I am late home I adjust the heating to suit my situation. Apart from having to replace the AA batteries in each valve every 5 months, I have seen my heating bills decline. Any views ?
Theres currently the great british insulation grant for home insulation, what would go wrong with this scheme since the companies that the energy companies use for the home insulation grant are certified and vetted. I don't see the same issue like solar panel, heat pump companies etc, Its just a cavity wall insulation
My in-laws had some total cowboys round to do theirs. As a DIYer, I'd have done a significantly better job (albeit slower). Unfortunately, you don't just get a grant for buying insulation and fitting yourself. I haven't run a thermal camera around the upstairs that they insulated (because I don't have one!), but if the plastering work is anything to go by, then it'll be full of massive holes. This wasn't cavity wall, it was internal stud wall. The problem with that was that the rooms were being reduced in size for the insulation, and they made no real attempt to blend in the dimension changes with existing architraves, coving etc. They just wouldn't spend the time making the house look nice. The work was only affordable for the in-laws with the grant, so they didn't feel entirely justified in complaining or asking for a perfect job.
If on a low temperature heating system it needs to be on continuously instead of when the home is active with people, it is likely that the total heat needed will increase and also the real cost. Also, the national grid will be subjected to higher demand in the quieter hours.
you are right. Running a heat pump around the clock to keep up with heat losses in a building that is empty for 8 hours a day is not saving anything. People don't need to keep bedrooms at 18 deg all night long.
Hi Geraint Say hello if you are there next week. I see we are going round in roughly similar times but I am not one of those people who can run round and have a good chat at the same time.
The beauty of the solar scheme is that it so missold you can get your money back my dead got most of his money back from his. Worth looking into especially if you feel you didnt get what you were promised.
Does anyone have an opinion on whether it is realistic to just use a heat pump for heating and then use local electric water heaters for each point hot water is required?
Im using a heat pump for underfloor heating in a small barn conversion and undersink electric heaters for hw and an electric shower. A HW tank would be too big for this building.
It's a pity gas boilers don't have a setting that would set the flow temp to 70 and then to 50 when the room has reached the desired temperature and then there would be no need for larger rads
Low temperature is interesting for people that are always home. My home is occupied at least 22 hours a day. I spend 10 kwh in electric, to run pc's lights and a dehumidifier. When we moved into this apartment the power company wanted 4x my current use in gas as a estimate. I told them to install a smartmeter or get lost. Last week it was 16c in the livingroom after the hr++ shut of at midnight after a gas interuption. It took 8 hours to loose 3c in a totaly unused room My bedroom went down to 15 as the air inlet above the windows was open. It was below 0 that night. I spend 1.5m3 of natural gas per day. It took 2 hours to reheat the room after we got the hr++ restarted. I have the water set at 45c. Tap water is 60c. My house does have a moist issue (75%+) if we don't use dehumidifiers. We have a co2 regulated airfilter. It took us 3 winters to get comfortable. Turning the flow temp down from 85 to 45 was a gamechanger. If it gets colder than -5C I have to increase the flow temperature. I think I could keep house warm with a few candles. Just have to find out how much kjoule heat my 1.5m3 gas is, and what that is in candles.😂😂😂😂 probly something like 50😅
As I see it, the problem is that people call in a heating engineer for a quote...who will almost certainly install a boiler and radiators. The customer doesn't get to hear about the differing forms of heating. So, call in a heating consultant? Maybe. My favourite is electric heating, because it's simple and thus reliable. It costs more (running costs) but there's virtually no maintenance. Unfortunately, people don't understand about insulation and heat loss. Just look at the videos on UA-cam of people pretending that you can heat a house with a candle!
@@otofoto I've been 100% electric for years, storage heaters but they're at the end of their life and have obvious drawbacks. Don't like gas. Definitely not air source especially since there is not enough trained people to install properly. Fancy infa red because they can go on the ceiling freeing up wall space but don't know how safe that is. Also it's a very comfortable heat and has health benefits but I'd like an objective opinion and then there is the water heating.
Market forces alone won't improve home insulation over the long term, as you say, they are in and out for the profit. Our politicians are in it for the headlines and box ticking.
I agree about the government interfering and it causing undesired results. It was an old Ronnie Reagan quote, "I'm from the government and I'm here to help". What on earth does the government know about it? Leave the market to decide. I like the title of this video. It's the anti-dote to these videos about heat pumps and how utterly ridiculous and over-complicated we are making what was once a very simple concept - that of heating your house.
Hi, I thought it was intresting your statement of heat doesn't rise asking a chatbot came back below, so are you incorrect or is the chatbot or both? - No, that statement is not accurate. Heat does rise due to the process of convection. When you heat a substance, its molecules gain energy and move more rapidly, causing the substance to expand and become less dense. In a fluid, such as air or water, the warmer and less dense portions rise, while cooler and denser portions sink. In the context of a room, when you heat the air, it becomes lighter and rises. As the warm air rises, it cools down, becomes denser, and then descends. This creates a cycle of convection currents, distributing heat throughout the space. It's not that heat is "heavier" than cold water; instead, it's about the density changes in the fluid medium. So, to rephrase: Heat rises because when air is heated, it becomes less dense and ascends, creating convection currents that gradually warm the surrounding air.
Boom/bust. Rush in opportunists. All funded from government grant aid. From whom does the government derive it's income? The condensing combi replacement... I have seen... things! 🙄
Our wonderful government were offering a free burger and fries if we got jabbed with the harmful armful. I'm always very sceptical of so called government incentives, no matter what they are!
The heat is gathered because the refrigerant is colder than the outside air so the warm to cold still applies. It is then pumped and released as hotter than the internal temperature so it is still heat to cold. As the internal temperature rises the heat pump becomes less efficient.
@@SkillBuilder No disagreement pal, just a point and certainly not going against the laws of thermodynamics. And actually heat pumps consume energy to transfer heat. By the way I follow your videos about heat pumps and at the moment we are keeping the gas boiler. Just added an external expansion vessel as the red one inside it gave up and hopefully for the next years the old baxi will keep us warm
Glad I watched this bumped up the hot water to 60C on my combi. Been running an experiment with 24/7 central heating at lower temperatures. 1929 semi 9" solid walls with double glazing, loft insulation, Worcester Bosch boiler 4 years old. Before I'd let the house cool down at night but then I'd have to run the radiators really hot at about 78C to heat up the house quickly enough in the daytime. I'm now running the rads at 57C 24/7 to maintain 20C and the house stays warm enough even through the minus temps we've recently had. It's also more pleasant to not have really hot radiators if you're nearby and less condensation just need to use thinner duvets. Oct-Nov last year was £180, Oct-Nov this year £165 Flexible Octopus tariff same which is the real surprise I'm able to keep the house warm 24/7 for roughly the same cost.
The price per kWh is much lower this year to last so that's why you're spending roughly the same. I'd say youre probably using 50% or more kWh of gas though; check your bill for your energy consumption.
Fantastic video Roger, there's a dire need for independent, informed and up-to-date information on heating and I think your video was very fair, balanced and informative.
Thanks 👍
I like the continued focus on heating. This is very valuable to people, all over the world. You chaps are making good decisions with this channel
Thank you Roger. As always a simple, direct and no nonsense appraisal. 👍👌👏
Great Podcast Roger. Last year with tthe increase in energy prices I turned my attention to the efficiency of my heating system. A couple of things helped me make improvements. Firstly understanding that when we heat the house we are simply replacing heat that has been lost, and that rate of loss is of course geater when it is colder outside. Understanding this helps you focus on how to reduce this loss (insulation, drafts, reducing the heating in unused rooms etc.). The second thing was understanding that our "efficient" condensing bolier only has an efficiency gain over a non-condensing boiler (max 88%) when the temperature of the return water is less than 54 deg C and to get efficencies up to the 93/94% level the return temperature needs to be about 40 deg. The difference between flow and return in my system is 12-15 deg C so I needed to run my boiler with a flow temperature of about 55 deg C which corresponded to a setting of 68 deg C on my boiler. This would have posed a Legionella risk so I also installed a smart immersion heater (Tesla-Smart) which schedules a weekly sanitisation run for me. After all the effort I was only able to reduce my gas consumption by 5-6%
Roger you are the best. Keep up the good work. Simple answers, unswayed by anyone. We need more people like this. I love the rants too! Also, a proper tradesman, just look at his hands. He does the work, not just the talk.
Roger, great video as always. We bought a brand new build house (4 bed detached), we expected it would be well insulated but it’s not. The house starts cooling down after a few hours so turning the heating off isn’t an option. Contacted the builder (Bloor homes) and their response was that the heating needs to remain on at 19 degrees minimum permanently. We keep it on at 18 but it costs about £200 a month to heat. Looking back, it was a crazy assumption to make that a new build is well insulated, they’re not!
They absolutely have to meet regulations, and those regulations should be good enough to give you a warm house.... get it looked into - if it's new, it'll all be covered still.
@@johnadams1976 Thanks, appreciate the comment. After a lot of hassle with their ‘customer care’ they did send a surveyor and they poked inside the cavity but confirmed it was up to scratch, then someone came out with a tool to visibly check heat loss. They put some more insulation in the loft but this didn’t really do anything. I think a lot of it has to do with the window vents being a thin bit of plastic that makes the windows drafty, I did consider filling this in entirely but they need to be there under regs to prevent condensation (not that they do). It’s annoying but there are a lot of people who have it much worse than we do or can’t even afford to heat their homes.
Roger is being so polite about the industry. When govt. grants appear contractor cowboys appear, we all know the sort of contractor, probably started by selling double glazing in the early 1980s before moving on to insulation (first loft insulation, then cavity wall insulation, then external insulation, now some are going back to cavity wall insulation) and now into solar panels, heat pumps etc.
My problem with heat pumps is similar to Roger's. When I go to bed I want my bedroom to be a little under 20C (18.5C is just about ideal), but because of the way my house was designed (in the 1960s) as long as there is a little bit of sum, the first floor, which we rarely use in the day and has the bedrooms, will be warmer than the ground floor.
I am not against heat pumps, once I finish upgrading all insulation and windows in the house and installing solar panels, I will get a heat pump but only if I can have a system that is flexible enough to allow me to control each room separately
I guess you could simply install individual radiator thermostats (just like any other system)with a heat pump?
Last year I did a test on whats best. to keep the same temp 24/7 or scheduled scheme. Scheduled scheme is much less gas use. 👍🏻
If a boiler is off, it isn't costing you.
It’s my understanding its not just about being on or off 24/7, its about optimising output for your boilers condensing function. Ie lowering the temperature of the water output, ideally enough that the boiler can run at its lower rating (ie mines 7kwh) vs full pelt (35kwh). Roger, id love a video on this though, is there a way to know if its running efficiently?
@@SkillBuilder yes, exactly!
There was a possibillity that it was cheaper to keep the house at temp. with the condensing boiler on.. no luck…
Hi Roger, as always sound advice, when I was installing heating, the biggest problem, was educating the elderly, I could tell them till I was blue in the face, about using the controls, example your thermostatic valves are not a volume switch, No 1, is not warm, and number 5 isn't the hot , I lost count of the number times I had reset timeclocks, bless them
I have air-2-air R32 system, its been -10 here for 3 days and it struggles. It's important to remember that even heat pumps are governed by the laws of thermodynamics, they have their place when its above 4 degrees and preferably wet but when you need it most at -10 then unless your house is a sealed box you're going to be cold. Hybrid is the way to go imo, keep your boiler and fit air-2-air save on install costs and having to mess with your pipe work rads etc and get the same effect.
yeh i’ve got a modern a2a in my loft, works very well down to about 2-3c, any lower and it struggles to get much above 17c inside.
Comes down to system design and the temperature it's designed for. Many Air to Air units do lose some heat output as the temperature gets lower, there are some that retain it to -15C (e.g. the Mitsubishi Hyper Heating). My Air to Air setup works fine for my house even in -14C, which happened on Saturday, and the house was still 21C - have two Toshiba Daiseikai 9.5s (one 25, and one 35), and a Hitachi Yutampo Twin. Giving me a combined heat output of just over 13kW at -15C.
@@BenIsInSweden I think it comes down really to the amount of enthalpy, if it was 5% humidity then there is less energy in the air to absorb than 90% but you will defrost more frequently. R32 systems cannot get around the fact that the gas doesnt want to boil at -10 ambient, if in your setup there was a -35 degrees on the condenser then that's pretty close to sending liquid into the compressor and efficiency will be a little over 1 which is why you may as well have supplementary heating sources. There are limitations with all systems.
@@SamDude-cu2jbyou have no clue how well insulated those houses are, thus expeeeensive
@@zmirc insulation only affects heating requirement, not whether a heat pump will struggle or not. If it struggles, it's undersized for the heating load at the outside temperature. Either needs a bigger unit or a secondary unit to meet the demand.
Good video Roger. I have been through the insulation in my house and found all the gaps including using a thermal camera. It is nearly up to current Building Regs. I have a 30kw boiler for a 5 bed house. It is well oversized now. I only really use the 12kw log burner which is enough to heat the whole house even at -3 degs last week. It does take a little time to get it up to temp from cold. However it will run for hours when shut up often running all night burst back up in the morning when opened up again. Gas is mainly used for hot water heating. I looked at a heat pump for heating hot water but the cop is only 2.5 at best for this application so much cheaper on gas and likely faster to heat up. I do have solar and use spare solar power for water heating in summer. I am not looking at air to air heat pumps for a couple of main rooms. These can be used in milder days to provide heating still getting a decent COP. When it is too cold I would just go back to the log burner. With modern houses and gas demand for hot water being much greater than heating you have to question the economics of the heat pump. Even with a heat pump you many need to use direct electric heating to get the water temp up.
Good shout! Off with my ir camera now!
Excellent comments, which IR cameras did you use?
Worcester bosch cdi combi 28kw I have it on 12kw. Saving a little fortune.
Currently im running my valliant boiler with 35c flow temp left on 24/7 with stat set to 18c. My aim for next year is to fit the drayton wiser smart thermostat to add some weather compensation in and the smart trvs. Weather comp has the potential to lower our flow temp and bills even more.
I don't shut the bedroom windows until it gets below 4C. Hate a hot bedroom. Trouble with the house is that I have it at 14C most of the day as I'm in my studio, goes up to 19C at 2 as my son finishes work and is home at 3, but when it rains too much, he's not working, so I'm always adjusting the temp. He's fine with a jumper.
Excellent video, really insightful! Got solar panels installed this year, to go with the geothermal system. Now producing 70% of our own energy, and can even run off-grid late into October
Im very lucky my house even being a 60s council house is pretty well insulated. I leave heating on 24/7 at 20c costs about £3 a day. I think its had cavity according to theepc and hasalso got a well insulated loft. I use a dehumidifier a damp house costs more to heat plus you gain a small amount of heat from the dehumidifier.
Hi, Roger.
I appreciate your no-nonsense approach to the subject of home heating.
I think that insulating one’s house must likely be the most important step to take toward making improvements to the heating.
With that in mind, maybe you could show people how best to insulate their homes, taking into account that there is a vast array of properties built at various times with different materials and methods.
E.g. a 1950’s ex council house, which may have cavity walls that has subsequently had the cavity insulated.
I wonder if there’s any more that can be done to improve the quality of insulation.
A friend of mine has had more insulation installed on the outer skin of his house. Do you think this is a good idea? Or can this create long term complications. Your thoughts, maybe a more in depth discussion of the pro’s and cons of certain types of insulation, would be beneficial to many of your followers.
Try looking at other videos on the channel. It's all there and done already
also needed is air circulation, no good blocking all drafts and walls if you then are always dozey due to high c02 and lack of fresh air.
something a passive house should also think about if there dreams are to create there perfect home as it can save headache doing solutions at the same time if there doing other things
This is a great idea for a series, I will be following as always :)
Roger thanks mate, this has been word for word my mantra to clients for the last 10 years.
Keep on hammering the message.
Excellent I got a bit bored watching this one but I am glad someone likes it.
Just for information, in my 1990's house I've found by trial and error that setting the boiler flow to 65 C minus the coldest outside temperature that day works reasonably well if the system is left running 24/7 (a heat pump like scenario). Its no good for a quick warm up, taking a few hours to bring the house up to temperature. Its only takes seconds to change the setting on the boiler so its easy to do each day and gives the benefits of a weather compensation system without the cost.
Conclusion - my radiators are too small to work with a heat pump so would need to be upgraded (and probably my microbore pipes as well). In situations like this, a hybrid system retaining my current boiler would seem to be way to go. Surprised that the industry isn't advertising these more widely.
One look at your hands, gives you instant credibility with tradesmen. A wealth of information, well presented and for free. Priceless.
Another great video. I can’t seem to see the links to the boiler types that have two different water temperatures in the description. Currently going through a large renovation and it might be perfect timing.
Roger is it worth turning the flow down on a system boiler i cant dictate the temperature between the water and the heating and its currently at 70. I dont like the idea of dropping it with young children and legionnaires. My mums heat pump is constantly at 50 and you cant change the temp separately between the water and the radiators and i cant work out a way to get it to raise every so often to kill bacteria without doing it manually.
Thank you Roger
Large hot water boilers only need to be heated up once a day. You can safe a lot using as small as possible boiler with low electrical power like 1800w and only for example to shower and bathroom depending on distances. Place it on a timer and if possible on low cost time like at night.. You can safe half the bill that way on the boiler. For
Great video Roger as always. I'm due a boiler change (mine is nearly 50 years old!). I shall be looking at the dual output boilers you mentioned. A combi wouldn't suit me as the boiler is fairly remote in the house and would take ages to get hot water through. My HW tank is central and works well. Thanks again.
My combi is positioned where the immersion used to be . Its flued up through the roof . They don't have to go on an outside wall
(1948 ex council mid terraced)
Good point.- thanks@@Mitch-Hendren
Dual output boilers work best with something called Hot water Priority... Have a look on the UA-cam channel Urban Plumbers
Essentially, your boiler normally runs cool flow temps for max efficiency, but then if hot water cylinder needs to be recharged, your heating turns off, your boiler ramps up to maximum and recharges your cylinder in 20mins or less, giving virtually unlimited hot water like a combi (as you're unlikely to drain the whole cylinder in less than 20mins)
Thanks for that, I'll take a look.@@MichaelFlatman
Keep it coming Roger. I have to decide heat pump or oil right soon. Cheers!
I googled Legionnaires and Combi boilers the other day, the ‘official’ answer seems to be ‘virtually impossible to get Legionnaires from a Combi’. As regards the shower head, even if Combi set to 60C, the head will likely never see more than 40C due to mixing. But on a water tank system, definitely need to keep it’s temperature up.
That was the whole point. A combi has separate control over the heating and the hot water temperatures so you can safely dial down the heating.
@@SkillBuilder I’m suggesting that running a Combi at lower than 50C on hot water is not likely to cause legionnaires if used daily, there’s no water storage for it to bread. and the shower head would likely not see 60C anyway, even if Combi water set at 60C due to likely always being mixed down with cold. So really the legionnaires issue is for stored water systems, no?
@@over-engineeredstorage tanks typically have an electric immersion element as well with a separate temp control. Just need to time a monthly run to 70C to kill any nasties. Non issue.
I have a Vaillant boiler and most rooms have radiators that are 20-50% oversized, to allow us to run them at less than the surface temperature of the sun. Vaillant sell a system that allows integration of heat pumps, which would run the water and home hearing for probably around half to three quarters of the days when heating is required. We also have a solar diverter, but this gives less benefit now we have an EV and a PHEV. Not worried about grants, money is pretty solid right now, but would you bother with the heat pump multiplexer? I think Vaillant is unlikely to go tits up in the near future.
Our boiler is set to 55° and it's just about right for us
One time cold can move into the home vs heat going out is with air leaks!
MIL had a house built for minimum heating, not Passivhaus but close. Air source heat pump, one wood burner, MVHR. 4kVA solar, EV, all electric cooking, and a storage battery. She has a *negative* electricity bill. Brilliant, but fabulously expensive - if achievable at all - on a retrofit.
I have never seen an oil boiler that will give you the option of different temperatures for hot water and heating. However, overall, great advice Roger.
You mentioned putting links to some boilers with seperate controls, but I can't see anything in the description.
sorry we haven't done it yet. I wil get on it.
Viessman is one
I was just researching this very topic today after watching your video with heat geek! I didn't realise there was dual output boilers for stored water. I was trying to find something along the lines of a controller that changes the target set point once a week to kill of all bacteria. Looking to keep a hot water cylinder instead of a combi to allow me to install an eddi to make use of pv power.
Is it also an option to use a heat exchange so that the water going to your taps isn't the water from your tank, just heated via the tank so that the water sitting at 50C is only a small amount of water that is ran regularly
Viessman do a dual flow model
Roger, thanks. What is your opinion on electric boilers replacing gas boilers? I am keen to understand the pros and cons.
We will be doing a video very soon on that very subject. They aren;t cheap to run so a heat pump could be better but they are a quick swap. Electric combis are terrible.
what is stopping me from buying a small pool heater heat pump. and using it to heat my house. I live in a mobile. I plan to put down underfloor heating. If i install the underfloor heating. will it work.
What's your views on a Wiser Control System ? Reason I ask is I installed one 5 years ago, so all 9 radiators have a temp control valve. So I can control temperature in each room. I can also remotely control heating when I am away from my property which I find helpful. So if I am late home I adjust the heating to suit my situation. Apart from having to replace the AA batteries in each valve every 5 months, I have seen my heating bills decline. Any views ?
Good to know its saved you money. Im looking to install the wiser stat and smart trvs next year.
Theres currently the great british insulation grant for home insulation, what would go wrong with this scheme since the companies that the energy companies use for the home insulation grant are certified and vetted. I don't see the same issue like solar panel, heat pump companies etc, Its just a cavity wall insulation
My in-laws had some total cowboys round to do theirs. As a DIYer, I'd have done a significantly better job (albeit slower). Unfortunately, you don't just get a grant for buying insulation and fitting yourself. I haven't run a thermal camera around the upstairs that they insulated (because I don't have one!), but if the plastering work is anything to go by, then it'll be full of massive holes.
This wasn't cavity wall, it was internal stud wall. The problem with that was that the rooms were being reduced in size for the insulation, and they made no real attempt to blend in the dimension changes with existing architraves, coving etc. They just wouldn't spend the time making the house look nice. The work was only affordable for the in-laws with the grant, so they didn't feel entirely justified in complaining or asking for a perfect job.
If on a low temperature heating system it needs to be on continuously instead of when the home is active with people, it is likely that the total heat needed will increase and also the real cost. Also, the national grid will be subjected to higher demand in the quieter hours.
you are right. Running a heat pump around the clock to keep up with heat losses in a building that is empty for 8 hours a day is not saving anything. People don't need to keep bedrooms at 18 deg all night long.
Clocked you at Reigate Park Run a couple of weeks ago , been trying to work out for ages where the hell I’d seen you - slightly starstruck ! 🤣
Hi Geraint
Say hello if you are there next week. I see we are going round in roughly similar times but I am not one of those people who can run round and have a good chat at the same time.
Simp!
Will do and same here..generally blowing after the first lap through the woods ! 😩 Great videos BTW ! 😉
The beauty of the solar scheme is that it so missold you can get your money back my dead got most of his money back from his. Worth looking into especially if you feel you didnt get what you were promised.
I’d love a passive house.
Does anyone have an opinion on whether it is realistic to just use a heat pump for heating and then use local electric water heaters for each point hot water is required?
Im using a heat pump for underfloor heating in a small barn conversion and undersink electric heaters for hw and an electric shower. A HW tank would be too big for this building.
It's a pity gas boilers don't have a setting that would set the flow temp to 70 and then to 50 when the room has reached the desired temperature and then there would be no need for larger rads
Doesn't it cost way more to leave a combi boiler on 24/7 at a lower temp (~50) than just have it on 2-3hrs a day up at a higher temperature?
Yes for sure
Low temperature is interesting for people that are always home. My home is occupied at least 22 hours a day. I spend 10 kwh in electric, to run pc's lights and a dehumidifier. When we moved into this apartment the power company wanted 4x my current use in gas as a estimate. I told them to install a smartmeter or get lost. Last week it was 16c in the livingroom after the hr++ shut of at midnight after a gas interuption. It took 8 hours to loose 3c in a totaly unused room
My bedroom went down to 15 as the air inlet above the windows was open. It was below 0 that night. I spend 1.5m3 of natural gas per day. It took 2 hours to reheat the room after we got the hr++ restarted. I have the water set at 45c. Tap water is 60c. My house does have a moist issue (75%+) if we don't use dehumidifiers. We have a co2 regulated airfilter. It took us 3 winters to get comfortable. Turning the flow temp down from 85 to 45 was a gamechanger. If it gets colder than -5C I have to increase the flow temperature. I think I could keep house warm with a few candles. Just have to find out how much kjoule heat my 1.5m3 gas is, and what that is in candles.😂😂😂😂 probly something like 50😅
👍👍👍.Thanks
What are your views on electric boilers
Cost a fortune to run.
I'm FREEZING.
As I see it, the problem is that people call in a heating engineer for a quote...who will almost certainly install a boiler and radiators. The customer doesn't get to hear about the differing forms of heating. So, call in a heating consultant? Maybe. My favourite is electric heating, because it's simple and thus reliable. It costs more (running costs) but there's virtually no maintenance. Unfortunately, people don't understand about insulation and heat loss. Just look at the videos on UA-cam of people pretending that you can heat a house with a candle!
Cooking, washing and Ironing 🤣 You've not met my Mrs mate😂
Roger what about electric heating, I'm thinking infa red. What about electric water heating, what are the options?
Electric is 100% effective. It converts all electricity to heat without losses 😅
@@otofoto I've been 100% electric for years, storage heaters but they're at the end of their life and have obvious drawbacks. Don't like gas. Definitely not air source especially since there is not enough trained people to install properly. Fancy infa red because they can go on the ceiling freeing up wall space but don't know how safe that is. Also it's a very comfortable heat and has health benefits but I'd like an objective opinion and then there is the water heating.
@@yvonne3903 There is also heated blankets.
@@otofoto true
If heat pumps were that great I'd have one already.
No incentive needed.
exactly
They are great, but with a mountain of caveats. If I could afford it, I would have a ground source heat pump. Air source? Not so much.
The government need to make all new heating installs to have weather comp compulsory.
The government is trying to do this but it is very hard to police anything people do in their homes.
Market forces alone won't improve home insulation over the long term, as you say, they are in and out for the profit. Our politicians are in it for the headlines and box ticking.
I agree about the government interfering and it causing undesired results. It was an old Ronnie Reagan quote, "I'm from the government and I'm here to help". What on earth does the government know about it? Leave the market to decide.
I like the title of this video. It's the anti-dote to these videos about heat pumps and how utterly ridiculous and over-complicated we are making what was once a very simple concept - that of heating your house.
The market prefers whatever makes the companies selling on it the most money, not what is best for the people buying from them.
if heat pumps run at 50 degrees, how do they kill legionnaires disease if you need 60 degrees to kill the bacteria?
They have a programme in built which raises the water temperature to kill any bacteria. It's done automatically.
Yeah, they can run hotter but you really get the efficiency gains at lower temps.
Hi, I thought it was intresting your statement of heat doesn't rise asking a chatbot came back below, so are you incorrect or is the chatbot or both? - No, that statement is not accurate. Heat does rise due to the process of convection. When you heat a substance, its molecules gain energy and move more rapidly, causing the substance to expand and become less dense. In a fluid, such as air or water, the warmer and less dense portions rise, while cooler and denser portions sink.
In the context of a room, when you heat the air, it becomes lighter and rises. As the warm air rises, it cools down, becomes denser, and then descends. This creates a cycle of convection currents, distributing heat throughout the space. It's not that heat is "heavier" than cold water; instead, it's about the density changes in the fluid medium.
So, to rephrase: Heat rises because when air is heated, it becomes less dense and ascends, creating convection currents that gradually warm the surrounding air.
FROM PILOT LIGHT TO HEAT IN ONE SMALL ACT, NOT 24/7 INSANE ELECTRICITY CHARGES.
Insulate insulate insulate....
Has there ever been a recorded case of legionnaires disease in a domestic premises ?
£7500 now and £2500 cashback - so can get 10k now. going to see a lot of install and run
Roger, watch and love a lot of videos. Should comment more. But man please use nail brush please mate, put me right off the video.
I have seen some early youtube videos of you working with worcester Bosch...:)
What is your point? I have worked with many manufacturers in the past not just Worcester.
Good, reliable and efficient boilers is Worcester.
Are you sponsored by jaffa
Boom/bust. Rush in opportunists. All funded from government grant aid.
From whom does the government derive it's income?
The condensing combi replacement... I have seen... things!
🙄
Our wonderful government were offering a free burger and fries if we got jabbed with the harmful armful. I'm always very sceptical of so called government incentives, no matter what they are!
like
Didn’t know Donald trump knew so much about heating
4:03
Heat pumps move heat from cold to warm
The heat is gathered because the refrigerant is colder than the outside air so the warm to cold still applies.
It is then pumped and released as hotter than the internal temperature so it is still heat to cold.
As the internal temperature rises the heat pump becomes less efficient.
@@SkillBuilder
No disagreement pal, just a point and certainly not going against the laws of thermodynamics.
And actually heat pumps consume energy to transfer heat.
By the way I follow your videos about heat pumps and at the moment we are keeping the gas boiler. Just added an external expansion vessel as the red one inside it gave up and hopefully for the next years the old baxi will keep us warm
The problem with co2 is that there isn't enough of it.