Heat Pump Secrets They Don't Want You to Know
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- Опубліковано 5 жов 2024
- Roger Joins Jeremy Vine on BBC Radio 2 to Discuss Air Source Heat Pumps
skill-builder....
Heat pump manufacturers installation instruction manuals
🔗 Daikin: bit.ly/3FeTwVB
🔗 AeroMax: bit.ly/3K7p17U
🔗 Grant: bit.ly/3rdQpbo
USING AN AIR SOURCE HEAT PUMP FOR HEATING
Heat pumps work best when there’s less of a difference between the inside and outside temperatures. In much the same way that your fridge has to work harder in hot weather.
This makes them a good match for underfloor heating systems. Floors cover a much bigger area than radiators so they don’t need to get as hot to provide the same amount of heat.
Air source heat pumps also have a lower output than a gas or oil-fired boiler. This means they can’t deliver heat as quickly. Instead, they’re best used to heat your home up slowly over a longer period.
AIR SOURCE HEAT PUMP AND RADIATORS
If you have radiators in your home, and you’re switching from a gas-fired heating system to an air source heat pump, you’ll probably need to buy some bigger radiators to keep your house toasty.
USING AN AIR SOURCE HEAT PUMP FOR HOT WATER
Heat pumps can also be a great source of hot water - but the water will be cooler than from a boiler. Practically this means that If you’re running a bath, you’ll need more hot water and less from the cold tap. So you’ll likely need a bigger hot water tank to cover your needs too.
REGULATIONS
A fly in the ointment for some is the need to meet regulations when installing an ASHP. Although the vast majority of people don’t need planning permission, there are a couple of things that must be adhered to in order for the ASHP install to be without issue with the local council.
This includes making sure the installation is at least a metre from the boundary of your home, will be used only for heating, is installed on a suitable surface such as the ground or a flat roof (1 metre from the edge), has a maximum volume of .6 cubic metres.
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David Hayman - New Clean Energy
🔗 newcleanenergy...
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#AirSourceHeatPumps #HeatPumps #Renewables
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😁 Thanks for the mention at the beginning Roger!👍 😀
Side note.. we're actually the uks number 1 hydrogen fuel cell boiler installers so if we were bias it would be AGAINST heat pumps not for...
@skillbuilder why don't you pop over and do a fuel cell video with us!?
🤣🤣🤣 like the nuanced message bit at the end too
Nice work!
I am more than happy to talk to you and hear your side of things. I did extend that offer some time back but you went quiet. Where are you based?
Talked to my plumber about hydrogen and the trials that are going on at the moment. He seems to have more faith in that as a future solution. I likve in a City with thousands of terraced housing and back to backs and heat pumps will not work. There won't be any room if nothing else.
Excellent, informative and balanced. I really appreciate this as I am in the process of a complete barn renovation and trying to decide how to heat and insulate it. Thank you.
Crikey! I thought it was very UN-balanced. Amazing how perceptions can differ.
In what way is this opinion hit piece balanced? About as balanced as Fox or Sky "News"
It wasn't balanced at all...
Closed sell spray foam and ground source heat pumps are ideal. Air source with backup resistance heater is a good if ground source isn’t an option. A photovoltaic system is also a great option if you have good sun exposure and they have a huge return on investment after usually about 7 years.
See a professional, this is not a balanced video.
Good message, agree with all you say. I am a gas fitter and will be fitting gas boilers for many years to come. Lots of houses are not suitable for heat pump yet.
That's crazy! I live in a 1910 house and heat pump is much better than boiler. My guess is that you want to replace boiler with heat pump and keep the stupid water loop.
Depends on how much house owners want to rely on russian gas prices
@@OskarHenrikssonx still need the gas to generate the electricity.... go nuclear!
@@pierregravel-primeau702 It's really going to depend on the average temperature in your climate and the specific issues around any particular installation. It is crazy to suggest that heat pumps will be the best solution for everyone
@@OskarHenrikssonx The electric is made from gas, when the price of gas goes up so does the electric. Electric will always be 4 times the price of gas for this reason.
Always a honest opinion and enough info to make a conclusion.
We have installed a 300 litre mains pressure air source unit.
According to the info it has solved the energy crisis !
It needed a 40 amp MCB as recommended, max current draw 35amps ! It also needed a 16amp single phase as it has a 3 kw immersion.
The plumbers said it need a immersion which is controlled by the unit to get the water close to 60 degrees as the unit won’t get water to that sort of temperature without it.
The outside unit when running is enough to piss the neighbours off but in this install it’s not an issue.
The immersion is to run the legionella cycle once a week and in the event of the external unit failing.
@@benfreeman3780 Disagree re- legionella, it's a closed loop system and you have a dose of inhibiter in the water/fluid to do exactly that, inhibit bacteria growth.
@@electroshed all ASHP’s are required to be set up to run a weekly legionella cycle, which pushes water temps above 60c to kill off bacteria in the cylinder.
@@benfreeman3780 in a closed loop a) what do the bacteria use as a food source b) how can they possibly get out to infect anyone?
They are an airborne pathogen, so if there's no aerosol, no risk. Unless ASHPs vent to air indoors?
@@james.telfer just because a system is closed it doesn’t mean bacteria cannot be present, however unlikely it may be and it is an MCS requirement that all LT ASHP’s run a pasteurisation cycle.
“Ideally heat pump flow temperatures for hot water generation should be 55oC or greater. This temperature will assist in reducing the multiplication of potentially harmful bacteria such as legionella pneumophila which can result in a pneumonia type infection known as ‘Legionnaires Disease’. Legionella bacteria stop multiplying at temperatures above 50oC and are ‘killed’ by temperatures > 60oC. Occasionally stored water should be heated to 60oC in order to pasteurise the cylinder”.
From the MCS guide.
I have a warm air pump, I live in Sweden all my neighbours have them, we do not have gas boilers they are not an option. Other options depending on where you live are District Heating (your house amongst others is connected to a local power plant) works very well. Then as you you describe Heat Pumps which draw heat from the ground, also boilers which use wood (older houses) or boilers which are automatically fed wood pellets.
My warm air pump copes very well with the weather we usually have snow during the winter never a problem, the system is on 24/7 during winter, it is better to leave it on auto rather than stopping it at night as you will be reheating cold air which is inefficient. My system has a motion sensor which can be overridden, if no motion is detected for a half an hour then it will drop the temperature by around 2c, this is mostly night time or during the day whilst at work. What you want to avoid is turning it off and the outside temperature goes down to -21c as was the the case before Christmas we had very cold weather it’s been on 24/7 since October. I have had a warm air pump for around 16 years, it is specified down to -25c for the outside unit and you can also have -35c, we never ever have condensation, as the system takes care of that and removes house hold odours. My house is 125 m2 four bedrooms and a warm air pump would cost between £1k-2k depending on the specifications. Installation around one or two days. The Heat Pumps which take heat from the land are typically found more in the country, town and city houses favour Warm Air pumps, with the A/C option for the summer.
In the UK we have damp air IE moisture which means lots of deiceing
@Roobs I agree on bedrooms, just keep the bedroom doors closed, Swedish houses are more open plan my warm air pump is in the stairwell, which is adjacent the living room, the stairs have no risers so air can circulate freely. My bedroom can be anywhere between 13 to 18 c depending on outside temperature but we are triple glazed. The units have an “air swing function “ which allows the air to be directed up and down, side to side or fixed. Also the big difference between a Swedish house and an English house is ventilation natural or fan assisted, I have a ventilation fan on the roof sucking air out 24/7/365 from the kitchen bathroom and toilets and storage areas, there are various inlet vents, it’s been running for over 30 years. This is considered to be important here but not in England so much ?
@@pilkipilki4472 Yes it is generally more humid in Britain than Sweden on the other hand we can have rain or like now we have had a fast snow melt in 24 hrs current humidity is 80% at 4c, it can very quickly drop to -10c or lower, I have yet to see any unit iced up and I have lived here for 24 years, I think the examples shown are rare, worst case scenarios, it’s not explained why they are like that or what country they are installed in or how they were used?
@Roobs I live like you so can see your point. However it does not have to be that way. 20 years ago I staying in a log cabin in the artic circle. -20degC outside and the heating was barely having to do a thing. Body heat was almost enough. Also plenty of fresh air from the heat recovery ventilation system. Frankly a much nicer place to be (whatever the weather) than most british homes.
But that is the problem that Roger is highlighting. ASHP will work well, but only if in a building designed for it. 90% of british housing is just not very suitable and we are 20 to 30 years behind the likes of sweden and finland is sorting that out.
David, what is the make of your air to air heat pump? What does the COP drop to when you have the lowest outside temperature?
Roger is the greatest and most honest person on UA-cam.
I thought the Heat Geeks did a respectful review of your heat pump videos and it's nice to see a respectful response here. Both of you are on the same page about the need for proper design to ensure a successful install and I think both acknowledge that the design challenges for heat pumps are (to many) new and more exacting. It doesn't mean heat pumps are bad, no matter how many warnings manufacturers put in their installation instructions to protect them from claims for stupid installations.
And you can also add that boiler can be poorly designed and if you cherry pick enought, NG boilers never work and is a scam...
Thanks Roger for taking the time to do this video - The message is loud and clear, Do your homework and take the advice a company trying to sell you a heat pump with a very tiny pinch of salt.
I'm an installer of the Ecodan range equipment and you hit the nail on the head, trying to explain all this to a customer is not easy, they make it sound cheap and easy !
On average it will cost between £20,000 to £30,0000 to be completed to spec !
my installation was arround 600€ including cables, 10m insulated pipes and all. I even include the vacuum pump, the manifold, adapters, and all i had to buy to install it myself... (a frient lent me the tool to shape the tubing...)
@@robertroigsantamaria joker
@@timbrooks2763 I paid 18€ for the vacuum pump (i was amazed it even came, being so cheap), 23€ for the manifold, 2 or 3€ for the adapter r32 uses new valve size, and 10m tubing was some 50€, and some 360€ for the HeatPump itself... I reused the feet, and the cable and the plastic railing to hide the tubing... so 450€ not even the 600 I said...
That is the point, get Ecodan made in Japan and England= No problems, get a cheap Chinese made= heat pumps are no good.
@@MicSokol
Manufactured in Scotland at their Livingstone plant.
Warehouse @ West Hallam is England.
Great lecture Roger.
I have to ask though, when people try to knock power stations on film a picture is always shown of the cooling towers belching out condensation as if its trying to make people thinks its fumes.
You are right, it is just steam
@@SkillBuilder My inner pedant just has to point out its water vapour - steam is the invisible stuff that burns/scalds.😉
It is neither steam nor water vapour. It is simply suspended water particles, the same as clouds or mist
@@Arthur-hx7sv that’s water vapour 🤣
I alway laught at that, they brainwash people so much, its a bit like the condense vapour from car exhaust. but the argument is if the system is COP 4 and you need 8kw to heat your home then thats 8/4 = 2kwhr at let say 23p per kwh. your crappy old gas boiler even on an expensive gas tarrif will be about 12p per kwh, still near enough half the cost
I live in Poland and have air to water heat pomp second season.Its working great but iam afraid that UK houses are not insulated enough for it to be most economic.I used to live in UK for 15 years.Second...air humidity could be a problem as it cause unit freezing.And of course underfloor heating as a good partner.
It's always interesting to hear the actual numbers...
Prior to your heat pump what was your annual energy usage? Gas kwh and elect kwh?
What is it now you have a heat pump?
What was the full cost of the installation?
@@ChrisLee-yr7tz For climate temp and humidity that Iive all year around.its about +5 For last 10 year's and it's going to be more up.(that's important).My kWh (UK units) usage for 2021 was around 3600kwh for Home heating and 600 kwh for hot water.Inside 20/22 degrees no less.But my home meets polish 2030 criteria.20 cm of polisterian around house and almost 50cm roof insulation in total.
@@MrPolun1 Hi. Thanks. What was the equivalent kwh usage prior to the installation please?
Also, how much did the installation cost?
What your average annual cop?
I notice your usage figures are incredibly low! Wow.
@@ChrisLee-yr7tz OK.I don't have any Scop meters but as it says in manual A7/W35 is no less than 4 COP. A2/W35 3.5Cop. But I don't use any heating curves just full manuall and never exeed 32 degrees.Cost of installation was around 4000Pounds but in today's world fuel prices and PV as an option (don't have any yet).Its almost for nothing.3 years ago I was looking for installers...now they looking after you...
Finally someone else saying what I've been saying,if I'm honest I didn't think they'd admit it in the instructions! Great job again thanks Roger
They're betting on the fact most people don't read the instructions! 👍😂
Haha😂🤣
Meanwhile, up in Braemar, Aberdeenshire council is in the process of removing open fires from ALL of their tenants' properties, while switching those same properties over to the crap electric heating that Roger is talking about. That's the same Braemar that was without power for ten days following December's storm Arwen, and the same Braemar that has experienced temperatures as low as -27.6 Deg C. You have to love the Scottish Greens!
That is unthinkable! I have an air to air heat pump which is not able to deliver consistent heat through a cold 24hr, but i have 2 chinmneys/3 fireplaces and any one of those makes the entire house resonate warmth.
Great video as usual. As a retired heating engineer it does sound like heat pumps are another white elephant in most situations !!
As an installer of HP for about 20years now, i recently started my own company. All i can say in regards to selecting air/air HP is that the manufacturers always list their capacitylosses in charts in regards to relative outdoortemperatures. Its true, that when it gets real cold outside ( -10 to -20°C) there is a very noticable loss in capacity due to freezing and clogging of the ouside battery. A good installer takes this in regard and selects a heavier unit when the client mainly uses it for heating. If the client only wants his/her AC for cooling in the summer this isnt even an issue, i tell my clients best they can do before each oncoming summer is clean the outside unit. Blow it out with air, hose it clean with water. Air/water HPs in comparison have a much much beter efficiency/yield to air/air HPs because of the fact they can continuously keep running on a low temperature (floorheating) hence a better pressure regulation on the outside unit, resulting in less freezing/clogging. Mitsubishi's zubadan/ecodan are great examples of this. also, your comment on outside units defrosting on electric basis is not entirely correct, most current HPs use hot gas defrosting. I have yet to see an AC unit that uses electric resistance for defrosting. Most of them require 20amps on the circuitbreaker (2ph or 3ph doesnt matter) as per manufacturer design, but run on 2-6 amps on regular usage.... thats 400 - 1200 W. thats a joke in my opinion. people have alot of other electrical compliances in their homes that often use alot more power.
400W?! How much does it draw continuously? At that power it would easily be the most power hungry device in a home.
If the device runs on around 2A, on 220V, it equals 440 watts. Theres plenty of devices that use more. Like ovens, fryers, tv's, garden tools. Lots of People still use electric boilers these days, u think that's cheaper? Or accumulation heating? 400W when u have solar panels is nothing basicly
I've had a hyper heat ductless split for 3 years now, I installed it myself and we love it.
It's our main heat source and we've been down to -5° and the house maintained temps in the 60's.
It's cheaper on electricity and no fuel needed.
@@denjames505 Plus, 400W for heating is nothing compared to using gas...
@@AlejandroVales exactly, it's no different to people thinking nothing of filling up a massive SUV with £££ worth of fuel that gets them "some" miles - equally, they can't quantify a 20-30kW gas boiler in equivalent electric form - naysayers like this chap who cherry-picks the warnings in installation manuals (as if gas fitters read their instructions!) and those with vested interests in gas boilers will continue to slate heat pumps because they're new and different - dodgy salesmen and fitters will also give them a bad name, but in time to come they will either need to adapt or move on from gas, it's a no-brainer really...
very pleased with my air to air heat pump, £700 inc installation, plugs into a socket via a 10 amp fuse, I turn it on 15 minutes before I get up on cold mornings and off once on my feet. Being in the 'eat or heat' set it's a life saver.
In december 110m2 house, ufh, air to water heat pump daikin altherma 3, COP was 3 (1kw in, 3kw heat out). Very good! December here was really cold -20c some days etc.
works wonders, house is tropically warm. Was intalled 2 years ago, 1.5 years to go and pump itself has paid off.
outdoor noise is audible but not annoying, cant hear anything inside.
Sounds great!
I have a similar setup with the same pump. It is outside the bedroom window slightly to the side. Even heating the water at 3am in summer with window open , we don't hear it inside. I think there is a vast range when it comes to quality, the same goes for the installation. The right pump and the right installation.
Do you leave it running 24/7?
@@gaycha6589 leave it running, as in the system is always on. The pump only pumps when there is demand for hot water or heat, the same as gas only burns when there is demand but the boiler is always on. They say to leave it on as it has frost protection processes, the main unit being outside. This means it runs the central heating pump to circulate water without heat if the outside temperature is below 2c. Leaving it on also allows for the weekly disinfection cycle. We turn the heating off in the summer (water still on) and we see the temperature falls back to 7c. It goes into a standby without completely switching off. The background power usage of the system is 20 watts. That will be a little more if the central heating water pump is running in frost protection.
Could we have some numbers?
Gas / Elect annual kwh usage prior to installation?
Elect annual kwh usage post installation?
Total cost of installation?
Spot on mate! I have over 4 decades in the hvac industry and am a Master oil burner tech, you are exactly right in all repects. But what do we know???
also, be sure to factor in the cost of ownership over time and the longevity also. were seeing catastrophic coil failure quite regularly in the first 5 years or less. The part may be in warranty, but the labor usually isnt. Again, what do we know?
These are oversold here in the US. Once the temps get in the teens or lower they either use a ton of electricity or fail to produce a lot of heat if not a super low temp version. Natural gas is cheaper than electricity and that’s a fact. They are great if you have electric resistance heating and want to get rid of it or only use it as backup. I’ve had three systems. A Mexican no name from eBay. A Fujitsu low temp and a Panasonic good to -5F. None have been any better than the other. They all struggle when it’s 15F or colder. The spec sheets even show how much less BTUs the heads provide when it’s in that range. They are awesome until it’s super cold out. And agreed with the all the issues with wind,snow, sleet, freezing rain.
Your rant was great I appreciate somebody that will go against The drain, I’ve done HVAC are for 16 years and I completely agree with you that everything is David Diaz very specifically for the application and I’ve had good and bad experiences with the pump
Thank you for great info. Ive noticed things like the size of the cable on those things... Its clear to me they use a lot of energy and work very bad in cold weather. But you had so many good points i didnt think about.
size of the cable is irrelevant, if you have any 8 - 12 kW electric appliance it will have massive cable. It does not meant that is always taking that much power. But for sure this is the main problem of the air to water heat pump that it needs defrosting by standard resistance cables. Air to air heat pumps dont have these since they just turn into cooling mode and defrost like that
Understand on very cold days they can use 60 kwh per day ..that's £12 a day pre April electric cost and £18 per day once the new price cap comes in .
I've just got back from living in France where they are handing out huge grants to convert from gas or oil over to a heat pump. And that's all they do, fit a pump system without any consideration to the house size, construction materials or heating system currently installed. And, I'd love to show you the quality of workmanship (it was so bad on my friends place I took some photos). It's an absolute farce.
I have three minisplit air con units that I primarily use in heatpump mode, they're great - I agree they have downsides eg not suitable for very cold locations but doesn't every form of heat generation? Oversizing the breaker/cable is common practice for anything that might draw a fair bit of current or have a high inrush current, most inverters will throttle back once the water has reached near-setpoint temperatures. My units start doing defrost cycles when it gets to 4*c or below. Not placing units in direct galeforce winds is understandable but it would take a fair few gales/hurricanes to damage the fan. Direct water spray again understandable due to ice build up. Again keeping out of reach of snow drifts is understandable just like keeping your gas boilers condensate drain ice free, all common sense stuff really.
Heat Pump Technology Has advanced and They Make What Are Called Hyper Heat Systems That Will Perform Well In Below Freezing Condition, I believe To -20°f. Minisplits probably Aren't the Best Choice In Cold Climates, I live is subtropical climate, we rarely have hard freezes. But as supplemental Heat and A way to Conserve Fuel they are a Great, inexpensive Solution.
Very, very good things to consider. Every person considering a heat pump should watch this video.
When the Microgeneration Certification scheme was introduced, I wrote compliance manuals for installers for wind, solar and heat-pump technologies. Therefore, I am aware of the good and bad points of ASHPs and the importance of appropriate siting. One issue is that modern housing estates have tiny plots with the properties only two metres apart, which provides very limited suitable ASHP siting locations. On my new housing estate here in Scotland, the obvious place to locate an ASHP is on one of these gaps between the homes but this is a wind corridor and fills up with a metre of snow during severe winter conditions. I would not like to be elderly and have to cope with this.
So much un truthful information in this video
Yep, you're not alone. The frustrations and costs for end users (particularly in winter) because of the impracticalities of these Air to Water pumps far outweigh the benefits and intended function in the UK unless you have good wall, floor and roof insulation. In summer, they're fine! Fkn nightmare come October to March/April!
Who needs a heat pump when we have heated jackets eh Rog 🥵😉.
I love how you held your own on Radio 2 mate up against that aggressive little man , what a charmer he was 🖕🏽🧱👍🏼
It is funny that, I have no idea if he was little but he sounded it. How can you sound little? I think a blindfold test is required
He also claimed that gas boilers cause 40,000 premature deaths PER DAY.
Pollution, caused by vehicles, gas boilers and industry, said to lead to equivalent of 40,000 premature deaths a YEAR in UK.
@@safetyladysilver8988 Yep heard they too 😳🤣🤣
@@safetyladysilver8988 Reality is 40,000 premature deaths per year due to air pollution in general, not strictly from Nitrogen dioxide or gas boilers.
Its a lot, and makes 150,000 covid over 2 years seem fairly low compared, the talk about the harm of No2 is around diesel vehicles, which we are seeing a rise of due to so many more deliveries, what I am reading now does not mention gas boilers at all.
These Heat Punmp machines look like a potential white elephant
This video is stating exactly what we advise customers before we go ahead and install them, other channels promoting heat pumps have actually deleted mine and our other engineers comments advising of these things in the past which honestly is crazy. You can't temper peoples expectations and avoid call backs if you don't give professional engineering advice up front in the first place.
There are advancements being made with heat pumps all the time, flow temperatures increasing, load sizing and reduced risk of freezing. Also instructions like for system boilers are increasingly asking for a bypass in some form or other to be fitted, be it a UFH circuit, towel rails or standard bypass as the increased water temperature flowing through the units actually helps to stop them freezing up and having issues.
People worry about Nox and Gas power stations having to ramp up which will increase Nox - but there's one huge difference between stations and homes, stations in theory could have oxygen supplied to them removing the need for air and then burning more cleanly. The same method to produce hydrogen could be used to produce the oxygen allowing for cleaner burning of Natural Gas reducing its emissions and also providing hydrogen for HGV's and other vehicles where heavy batteries aren't the most efficient.
Though the best advice for any customer that can't afford a costly upgrade is just to insulate, plenty of UA-cam videos on how to make homes more thermally efficient and regardless of heating type it'll help reduce emissions.
Probably the biggest source of misconception is that we fail to educate the public in our public schools. I can't think of a good argument for why everyone shouldn't be taught basic physical principles. Decades ago people did a lot more for themselves; today, how many people on the street would you have to interview before finding one person who could explain the concept of latent heat of evaporation? Then how many before one could tell you what some celebrity or sports team is up to. 🤔😮🤯
@@elgringoec People today cant tie their own shoelaces. When I grew up I was changing the bearings on the car and fixing the boiler and getting the parts for everything on a motorbike before I was 13 years old. Kids cant change a lightbulb these days,.
@@cuckingfunt9353 Ain't like it used to be! Kids these days. . .
@@cuckingfunt9353 When ah was a lad we slept standing up in a brown paper bag in the fast lane of the M1. We got up an hour before we want to bed and ate a handful of cold gravel for breakfast, all before our morning thrashing. We fixed boilers, shovelled coal, cleaned chimneys and licked floors clean for 25 hours every day. It never done us a shred o'harm. Ah they were grand old times...
@@mikekelly5869 You are exactly the type I am talking about, one of these 'millennial' kids or whatever who cant believe we had to do real work back in the day. . . Well, when Vlad nukes us back into the stone age in the next couple of weeks and your 'just eats' app stops working I will share my bag of cold gravel with you.
I attended an estimate for a family today, they have a Heat pump in a 120 year old property with minimal insulation, it has been a disaster for them, they want it removed and a natural gas boiler installed in its place. The installing company have since ceased trading, I honestly felt sorry for the chap.
There is nothing wrong with the HP, it should have never been fitted in that property.
My house was built in the 1700's.
No heat pump for me.
Once this gas contract is over. I'm ripping those gas fires and boiler out too and going back to coal.
Getting gas heating was the worse thing I've done
Exactly. Horses for courses.
Great video, very balanced!
Just a couple of corrections though:
As for the comment on cable size and power usage, this will depend on the unit
I live in a fairly average sized house, we have a 6.8kw air source multi system (roughly 10kw heating output) and the max rated power consumption is about 2500w, similar to a fan heater so a fairly standard cable can be used (actually had it running off a plug the first winter it was installed before electrician could come and hard wire it and it was fine)
Rain isn't really a concern, unless you put it somewhere that's prone to flooding
Water contains a huge amount of thermal energy so if rain is blasting onto the coils it will likely make it MORE efficient since it can remove the heat stored in the rain (except if the coil is below freezing in which case you may find it'll have to defrost sooner)
Most air source heat pumps now days will be rated to run down to -15*C, and since they're all variable speed, you can get away with oversizing the unit a little to account for capacity loss in extreme conditions
In southern England where it rarely ever drops below say -5*C there's no need to worry, but up north that is definitely something to be mindful of
Heatpumps also DO NOT require your home to be perfectly insulated, they simply provide heat energy to the building, if your building is poorly insulated you just need to factor this in when you calculate the capacity of the system.
Biggest thing is though, it absolutely IS FAR BETTER to run a heat pump powered by a natural gas power station compared to burning on-site even when accounting for power generation and transmission losses.
Technology Connections made a video where he explains a heat pump only needs a COP of about 2.5 to be more efficient than on-site combustion, which is an incredibly attainable figure considering a cheapo noname brand heatpump can easily hit a COP in the 4's
You Love to Learn Roger this can be seen with all your videos.
I'd suggest getting a vid done with the pro's so we can all learn.
The Heat Geek team are equally as enthusiastic as you and they understand the importance of System design.
Anyone can lob a HP in as anyone can lob a Boiler in, the design and heating strategy are on both setups the key to achieve the efficiency, it's just Gas and oil is cheap and the muppets can get away with lobbing a boiler in.
We will be hooking up with the Heat Freaks
That is perhaps the most relevant point, design of the system and its maintenance. We have a Viessmann gas boiler that has broken down every two years from new. We had a firm with a maintence contract and after couple years it became clear that they weren't doing the maintenance, they just did the gas check. The same is true of any system. It would be a good idea to for Skill Builder and Heat Geek to do complementary vids on the system design and installation of both types of heating.
@@twasb2000 I read your comments with great interest, I had a new boiler fitted and was surprised on the first servicing 1 year later to see the the gas engineer only test the fumes emitting from the boiler and nothing else. Do you know where I can get a list of boiler checks please?
@@pjmoseley243 What make is it? Our problem has been wasps nesting in the boiler during the summer. The syphon and lower part of the burner have filled with charred wasps and blocked the drain. I found the manual on the Weismann site and saw that the maintenance should include removal of the burner and cleaning of the heat exchanger, along with gasket replacement and testing of the gases
How do you heat your water in summer, have you got some kind of solar setup? Maybe worth scheduling your boiler to heat the water once a week, that should deter the wasps!
Rodger please agree with me, the problem is with insulation. It can cost what it costs to heat a house but if the house leaks that's the square root of the problem. You can make alot of heat quickly with gas but if you lose heat you need alot of gas. I have a 80's built house recently renovated but it's the re-blow insulation and the 25mm of celotex dot and dab thats saving me money. My air source heat pump works to be fair but its because I'm not leaking heat left right and Chelsea! Heat pumps work, gas works, oil works, no insulation nothing is really working?
yes 100% agree
A huge issue in many houses is not so much the insulation, but how leaky they are. Sadly even modern "well insulated" properties often face similar problems due to poor quality construction. Theoretically they're well insulated, but if the outside air is just going around the insulation it doesn't matter much that it exists.
Stopping air movement from outside to in, and adding an MVHR system can have as big of an effect (if not bigger) than additional insulation. Ventilation is required, so recovering the heat from the extracted air is a no-brainer, rather than slapping trickle vents in every window.
Retrofitting it however is tricky, and there's limited knowledge and experience with it in the UK - your normal heating engineer likely won't have a clue.
@@mowcius You really need a professional building services engineer or a very experienced specialist technician/installer for all this stuff if you want a bunch of systems to work together at peak efficiency.. In the UK people have a habit of calling people who aren't qualified "engineers", and it gives the impression that they know a lot more than they often do. The person who installs heating systems is usually a plumber, the person who installs a minisplit is usually a refrigeration installer, the person who commissions a gas boiler and turns on the gas supply is usually a gas fitter. All good at their jobs but not an engineer between them and each one with indepth knowledge of their own trade only. If you want heating, ventilation, insulation, airtightness all designed and coordinated you need an engineer.
I work for a reputable renewables company, I watched both your videos on pumps and thought the first was particularly harsh against ASHP's. Also, the media during COP 26, I felt was giving an unfair narrative to ASHP's. Many funded incentives will always attract the unscrupulous, Solar PV as an example. No question, ASHP's are intended for the well-insulated home and will struggle or fail in homes that aren't. A heat loss calculation (HLC) must be done pre-every install and this will generally give the strongest indication of whether an ASHP would be suitable. My advice to customers is if it's a high HLC they should invest in insulation. The HLC will allow you to select the correct pump size, to low not enough heat, too high it will use too much energy and cost more to run. I installed my ASHP 1.5 years ago, last winter we were 7+ weeks below zero and peaking at -18c. The pump worked flawlessly and the running costs were not bad either. My advice is to do your research on accredited installers and don't forget, not all ASHP's are the same, this also requires you to do some research!
Well said
But isn't the complicated nature of the solution part of the issue? The average Joe just wants a solution to being cold, they don't want to or sometimes aren't capable of "doing the research" so rely on the installer. But how do you know the installer is competent and honest. We're back to research again and a healthy dose of trust.
I find convincing people to leave it on 24/7 is the hardest thing. It runs cheaper. I mean amazed at the difference that makes. I'm saving money and it's really toasty in our house.
We used to have to use fan heaters as well when we had gas, but I can't remember when I last used one since getting this and figuring it out. And on hot days I can even cool off while chatting over the fence.
Hi there, I’ve just bought a new build that has a heat pump installed and I’m clueless! What do you set it to to have it running 24/7 for a comfortable heat?
Sounds like 💩 to me .
what about the running costs to switch it on 24/7 compared to your previous electricity bills prior to heat pump installation? Are you able to save much?
Well said, 100% correct, George staszak
You didn't mention that ground source heat pumps are far, far more expensive to install than air-to-air. We're currently building a new home and even with a decent budget, we couldn't afford it. We're installing one of the best air-to-air systems and an 11kw solar array with battery storage for considerably less.
How air tight is house? The reason I ask is that for houses that require MVHR a air to air heat pump can affect the room air flows for the ventilation system. Cheers
@@engineerabetterlife8301 Very well sealed, hopefully. The house has to pass a blower test (pulling air out of the house to create a pressure differential) in order to qualify for Germany's KfW subsidies.
@@mstevens7175 Thanks for the reply. This is what I am looking to do in the future. What make of heat pump are you using? How do you heat your domestic hot water, using PV and battery? Cheers
Very useful video, thanks Roger! I’m generally not an early adopter of new technologies, preferring to see all these kind of issues come out the woodwork first, and while I always like to do my bit for the environment (I really go out my way sometimes), I wouldn’t want to give myself more problems than I currently have. So I’ll be waiting for all these kind of issues to be addressed/ alternative technologies to be invented before changing from my gas boiler.
Heatpumps has been around in sweden for over 30 years, it's not new technology.
Are infra red heating panels on your radar ? Could check out them too
@@paulfrost3501 Thanks, will check them out!
The heat pump was invented 75 years ago... your threshold for new technology adoption could use calibration.
@@jonathansage2147 🤪
We have a 10 kw mini split in our home. the out door unit is super quiet and the three indoor wall mount units are too. We live in a temperate weather zone -5 to 28 an average of 16 degrees. we also have a wood burner fireplace that we never use. its cheaper to run the heat pump than it is to buy fire wood. Plus the heat pump heats the home faster and more evenly than the fire does. We can also cool the home in the summer months. Its the best investment we have made in our home in price(including install cost) and in performance.
Where are you?
@@safetyladysilver8988 Im in New Zealand,
I would recommend a Mitsubishi system with the newer type gas. Very efficient and quiet
I have just had a air source heat pump fitted to a mid-terrace house that backs onto a river, there's no mains gas and the house location doesn't allow oil or LPG. This is an old stone construction house with a flat roof extension, the worst nightmare of a heat pump I thought.
So what do I have to say about how it works..... Well, it only has a standard 13amp supply, its really quiet! I mean more quite than the flue noise of my oil boiler in the house next door. Its keeping the house at a lovely temperature even in the cold snaps we have just had in this part of the country. The initial electricity bill is cheaper than the oil cost per month of the house next door (end of terrace) I own also.
Its worth remembering when looking at external oil boilers and the like, you will have maintenance issues very much the same with regards to mice, freezing, wind, salt/rusting etc.
Most people don't like change, I get that. We have to produce more green energy and move away from coal and gas power stations, I'm moving to a green energy supplier now to support the renewables industry and know that my heating choice is renewable.
If you do your research and are willing to make it work it will.
The government should just admit we need to concentrate on insulating buildings properly. It's a one time cost, no 'running costs' and we don't need umpteen power stations for the increased demand... 🤷🤦
We need power stations for Electricty to run the heat pumps, there aint no solar 9 months of year 😂😂
The government wants you dead or bonded.
That said your house can be as energy-efficient as you want... You still need to get the energy from somewhere.
The most self-reliant sources of heating energy are wood, the ground and solar.
Ideally we would all have perfectly insulated houses with thermal battery installations from which we can tap in colder weather. Which are boosted by nuclear reactors as the cleanest, most efficient energy source available.
And when those fail or shut down you have a wooden stove plumbed into your heating system with an automated burner and the ability to add logs you collected.
Or you have V2G installed and you go fetch 3 days worth of electricity from a working power station and dock up.
Then our house is all-electric with an emergency backup.
In the end the government is a hostile hsìw3J entity and it should not be referenced or given credence on absolutely anything.
We’ve just had an Eco4 survey done & been offered exterior wall insulation, an ASHP & solar under the scheme. All great except our house has twenty two mainly large single glazed metal framed windows & four old leaky wooden doors. Solar panels? We live up the wrong side of a Welsh valley to get the sun with an East/West roof & in a blooming wood!! This scheme for many will save them nothing & just move them from one energy source to another with if they are lucky a small reduction in bills. Sure ten/fifteen thousand pounds worth of free stuff is great but it’s effect on our actual energy usage compared to £15k being spent on quality windows & doors in our particular case will be minimal. I’m probably going to turn it down until the Government wake up to this or start getting complaints that the “New” technology is not working.
Many UK buildings are not well suited to be insulated.
Er, all I keep reading says that rockwool compresses over 30 years and loses its insulation properties.
My parents have had air to air heat pumps installed for at least 5 years (maybe more), and it works great for them. Probably the quietest appliances in the house too. We're Norwegian though, so houses are pretty well insulated to begin with - they have to be or else we wouldn't survive. They run all through winter too, even in temperatures well below -10 sometimes, although I don't have numbers on the energy efficiency during those temperatures. Perhaps they are tuned differently than the ones offered in the UK.
Hi Kreaturen. I thnk the main difference is the fact that we are putting them through a wet central heating system. I hear good reports on air to air and they are cheaper and easier to fit but they have a cooling capablity and that makes them inelligible for a grant aid.
@@SkillBuilder all our streets heat pumps were set not to be on at night time but it's a awful system it's been constant problems since it was installed in 2012 including a new fan in the garden and loads of other new parts it certainly doesn't work in a 1950s property
@@SkillBuilder that's so ridiculous! They aren't qualified because they are also air-conditioners? They are so inexpensive and efficient too!
It really depends on how the house is build/insulated. English houses (no offence) are mainly older houses that are poorly build and insulated. Often even very drafty around the doors and windows. If your house is decently build and insulated with proper seals around the doors and windows a air/air heatpump is a perfect solution (ofcourse with solarpanels)
@@Timberjagi Being poorly built and poorly insulated are two completely different things.
I would suggest that houses built over 150 years ago, as a lot of houses are in the UK are not poorly built at all, they were just not built with insulation in mind. They are mostly solid brick builds on solid foundations.
I grew up in local authority housing built in the 1950s. Exceptionally well engineered, concrete mould with cavity walls and very warm. We didn't have double glazing or central heating (this was the early 80s) and no one froze.
I am actually more concerned about the quality of new build properties today since David Cameron took away the need for minimum build quality. The new builds that I've seen have not been a patch on older builds in my opinion.
An insulation audit for a property would take care of many of these problems.
Reading instruction manuals can be a very dangerous thing to do.
I'm an air-conditioning and refrigeration engineer and while I don't install or particularly care
about this type of system they are basically the same as a split air-conditioning system.
I think you might have a point about burning gas in a power station but then one power station probably
burns gas a lot more efficiently than having millions of poorly maintained domestic boilers?
As for the electric heaters in an outdoor unit, they are just crankcase heaters for the compressor and
only run for a minute or two on cold starts. (They don't heat the air moving over the coil)
I can't remember the last time I changed a fan motor but I'm pretty sure it wasn't because
wind had been spinning it backwards.
I can only remember of one time in twenty years of having a problem with rats chewing through an interconnecting cable
and most of my work is in london where rats are everywhere. (They can be attracted to and chew through any electric cable)
I have never had a problem with rain, never built a shelter and never known of anyone else having to do so.
A defrost cycle takes about a minute and yes in this time your heating will stop running but while I'm not a boiler engineer,
I think most of us know our boilers don't run constantly.
That's why they have pilot lights not to mention you can hear them fire when they actually need to heat the water in a system.
I can't understand why you would need to slowly start the system, opening one circuit at a time.
I install lots of VRV/VRF systems and will often turn 30-40 fan coil units on at the same time from a centralised controller.
They are smart enough to know what's happening in the system and run up accordingly.
When you talk about noise and placing the units I would say you can't just put a gas boiler anywhere you like,
exhaust flues can't be too close to any opening windows or doors and as for noise this shouldn't be a problem
unless you buy some cheap unknown brand from ali express.
The only real time you will have problems is in flats were gaining permission can sometimes be an issue.
Finally the fact you even mentioned bolting the units down is just ridiculous, do gas boilers not
need to be fixed in place?
P.S
Have you ever looked at the instructions that come with any type of medication?
Sometimes I wonder how anyone takes even a paracetamol with the warnings and disclaimers they
like to include.
t
Give that man a prize, Best comment here, you said it all.
I salute your knowledge. This old tosser makes no sense
I have 3 mitsi kaiteiki pumps, 1 for the house and 2 for my large workshop. Works absolutely fantastic. Cold Norwegian climate.
Whats your annual electricity kwh usage?
What was your gas / elect annual kwh usage prior to installation?
What was the full installation cost of the pumps?
The manual for my gas boiler has 3 pages devoted to condensate pipework and how to install it so it doesn't freeze. Not to mention, the 4 pages of regulations and diagrams of where you can put a flue!
It's a wonder all you gas engineers can manage honestly. It's almost like you just need to know what you're doing!
Heat pump trainer here. I would be happy to let Roger join our next course (located on the south coast) to find out how new engineers are trained. We also run awareness courses for assessment and audit purposes. Also happy to answer any questions from a technical perspective.
Thanks for the offer, I am up for that
@@SkillBuilder email sent.
@@SkillBuilder Hello Roger, How did the course go, I am asking as I have been offered an air source heat pump under a grant but I am sceptical, Thank you
Wow someone who reads the instructions. First . !
Nice rant. Having been around heat pumps for the last 40 years mainly air to air for office heating . During the summer they work well with ambient temp above 5 degc. Once you start to get below this then you start to see the frost start to build and units start to defrost . As the temp gets colder it becomes more and more difficult to to keep the coils clear of ice . In the worst case I have seen unit with the coils covered in ice that have defrosted and melted the ice in the coil but left a sheet of ice still top to bottom stoping the air circulation from going through the coil .
I have spent hours. Washing the ice off units with hose pipes in the depth of winter and then forcing 2 or three defrost cycles to dry the coils before putting it back into operation . Come the winter we would have to adjust defrost to every 60 min. To keep units working .
But then we started to get Japanese units computer controlled circuit boards and more sensors than you could count and these units started to perform a lot better and for most of the time would cope well with the Uk conditions . But still you could get the situation when you would get called out and find the outdoor unit looking like a snow man with ice and frost all over it. Now these units are being pushed into homes and The domestic market hope they have the latest control and tec . But I wonder as they are a lot cheaper than the units I work with at times . And yes I have fitted one . So I will find out how well it will work . But I can only
Make it cost effective running on cheap rate. During the day gas wins at today prices. But we know that the gov will push up the price of gas to stop this advantage. And we know that off peak electricity will soon be a thing of the past. As we will have the night time Ev charging peak soon that will end off peak .
Just wondering if I should keep my log burner so not to be held to ransom by utility company’s
Great comment
Her in Ireland we manufacture hybrid systems heat pump and condensing oil boiler or gas boiler combined ,so you can operate combined or solo.
I have 2 mini splits, and they are protected from the elements just as you described, the shelter increased the efficiency and the system is just a part of the heating for the house, baseboards, and a gas fireplace round up the heating needs in a fairly moderate climate. Near the ocean , wet with the possibility of light snow in the winter. and we leave the heat pump running 24-7 and it does the lion share of the heat load. estimate 50% heat pump, 25% baseboard electric and 25% gas. the system requires some attention to the different ways to heat the house. Cheers.
Hi Roger
Are you aware that planning permission may be required for air source heat pumps? Is that mentioned in any of the installation guides?
I work for a social housing provider who will have to install electric heating systems at some point.
Whilst undertaking research I spoke to another housing association who told me that they installed a heat pump at one of their properties and the noise was so bad that the Environmental Health Officer attended the property at 11pm instructing the tenant to switch the pump off.
The council then informed the housing association that planning permission should have been obtained prior to installation.
Retrospective planning permission was sought and refused.
The heat pump was removed and replaced with a gas boiler.
A simple google search shows that you don’t need planning permission for heat pumps in the uk, the only requirement is that they must be atleast 1 metre from any boundary of your property
@@davina2796 That is not correct. I quoted you a real life example above.
Do you have a link to your google search results showing planning permission is NOT required?
@@davina2796 With a row of terraces, where the doors and windows take up most of the front and back, there is little space for an unsightly heat exchanger unit which is a metre or one and a half meters wide along a wall that isn't close to next door. Siting between the back door to the garden and a window of a room at the back (not the kitchen as the kitchen window usually adjoins the back door) is often the only outside wall space available. A humming pump will annoy people upstairs in bed and the neighbours either side... these units start quiet, but running for most of the time after a few years will start to grumble, rumble, and rattle. Housing Associations, like local authorities, are usually not very good at maintenance, and respond to breakdowns rather than paying for regular servicing. Gas boilers need certification annually. Heat pumps don't.
@@davina2796 It might come as a shock to you but Google is not a credible source of information. It is a search engine.
Can see the adverts now. " Were you miss sold a Air Source Heat Pump, Ring now to start your Claim".
Finding the right team (sales AND installation). The most important step and never easy. No matter how much I research and prepare, I want someone who will not just do what I ask. Thanks for the video.
Don't use this guy then! 😂
Well, I have two mini splits and they are quiet…..very quiet. However good points are made. Mine have no back up heat. Rain isn’t an issue with the installation. I have one that runs on 110v and one 240. Wind can be an issue, but most places not a problem. Thanks
I have been an heating engineer all my working life 53 years to be exact and I agree with you , in my time I found council’s and housing associations fall in to this trap easy,nice to hear someone speak the truth in today’s world. How do you feel about hydrogen boilers.
I think hydrogen boilers will have a roll, just depends on how the hydrogen is made can course just as much pollution as burning gas direct.
@@guygfm4243 massively expensive and hugely polluting
Well an heat pump is about 200% efficient on electrical basis while at best hydrogen boiler would be 20% efficient on an electrical basis (green hydrogen). If we speak about blue or grey hydrogen, you are better to continue to burn natural gaz to save GHG.
@@pierregravel-primeau702 Green hydrogen? Sounds like you've been smoking too much of it my friend.
If it’s broke don’t fix it ..these look dreadful, going backwards
Well split AC are heat pumps too and those are very efficient. So I would install those, rather heating water. Also if summer is hot you can use to cool
Keep up the good fight Roger! Heat pumps serve a great purpose-- hear me out.
Picture a rural setting, a nice house with a propane tank in the front yard, (too far away from the city to get natural gas).
This is the one situation where a heat pump shines. We will do dual fuel systems, (heat pump with propane forced air furnace for "backup". What we do is install an outdoor sensor that talks to the thermostat and then we can institute lockouts, i.e. run the heat pump until the outdoor temp hits 35F/2C then the propane furnace takes over until the outdoor temp gets back above the lockout setting.
That being said, if a homeowner is connected to the gas grid, by all means I recommend a 95% efficient or better forced air furnace over a heat pump any day of the week. Like you said all this technology is fine and dandy but who is going to repair this stuff when it breaks? I have seen a lot of high end systems work great for the first 5-7 years, but when PCB boards and ECM motors fail, all of the claimed savings are negated after extensive repairs.
That's sort-of where I'm at. I just bought very old house in a rural setting in need of some TLC. There's insulation, but it doesn't seem great. Currently, the house has electricity and oil and the oil powers the furnace for the baseboard radiators and hot water. I want to remove all radiators and put in ducts and heat pumps (and maybe have oil as a back-up if needed). We'll be rebuilding some of the center chimney, so I'm hoping to sneak in some ducts in the center chimney cavity and up to the attic. (I could be naive in how this'll all work.) However, I'm also not in the house during the fall and winter months, so I wonder if having a heat pump off for 7 months of the year is okay - ? I want the system to be usable in the winter, just in case, but most of the time I'd use it for cooling. I can't stand the baseboard radiators from an aesthetic point of view. They also take up a lot of space in already small rooms.
Moving into a new house soon and looking forward to having air to air heat pumps installed.
I received a battery powered chainsaw for Christmas.
I am trying to go green by burning my trees...quietly.
I didn't expect videos about heat pump to be so entertaining 😂
Thank you so much
Glad you enjoyed it.
I've been heating and cooling with a Mitsubishi mini split for 3 to 4 years. You can be standing right next to it while it's running and unless you see the fan actually spinning, you wouldn't know it was even on. VERY quiet. I do run it 24/7/365. Heat in the winter, dehumidifier / A/C in the summer.
And the mitsis are typically more noisy than other brands, great piece of kit the ecodan none the less, hence the huge lead in times for all mldomestic mitsi products
Wait a couple of years when the bearings exposed outside 24/7 and apologies to the neighbours
@@johnnorris1983 Mitsis generally have a good reputation, but the worst bearing fail is when it happens slowly over time so so don't notice how bad it really gets.
@@johnnorris1983 This is BS, heat pumps are proven over many decades, check how much they are used in commercial installations. Mini split air conditioners are heat pumps, there are millions of commercial installations in the UK and billions across the world. In Greece, where we have a home, almost everyone has them, they are reliable and ultra cheap to run. They often run for 20+ years without issues. They are not widely used in the UK because the Gov. won't include them in the renewable heat incentive, this is because they're afraid people will use them in the summer for A/C. It's ridiculous.
@@davidstorm4015 there's guys all sound like dumb asses.
Great video and extremely good info. Heat pumps need more good techs there too many butcher out there jut throwing any kind of system with out any specific system location specs and configuartion and that is hurting the industry
It seems that the most common comment is that heat pumps can work really well given the right property, in particular one that is highly insulated with an optimised heating system. I wonder how much of the success in these instances is down to the heat pump, or rather it is the insulation that is making the difference. A sensible approach for now might be to invest in the upgrade in insulation, but stick with a condensing gas boiler as the heat source. This is likely to give the best of both worlds for now, and would pave the way for a heat pump when the technology has matured
Some friends of ours building a new house - triple glazing, underfloor heating etc. etc. - were advised that a HP made no sense because their main energy requirement is hot water not heating and HP are crap for hot water so the electricity would be used for that purpose in any case. Needless to say they went for the Gas boiler as a result. Surely, if a HP makes no sense for a property like that, they don't make sense for anyone?
It’s matured. It’s ready. If your home leaks like a sieve, you’ll pay dearly for nat gas too especially as carbon pricing comes into effect around the globe. Fix your home. Decarbonize. Step to the future. This man has a gas license and he clearly wants to use it to the end of days.
It is matured… fridges, freezers, air conditioning are all heat pumps. Other (much colder) countries have been using them for decades now.
@@polarunion "Fix your home" - easy to say, harder to do when you are in a city like London. And carbon pricing is just a big scam.
We had an engineer around to talk about changing/ upgrading/ renewing our boiler... didn't talk us out of a heat pump, but did outline the shortcomings and cost of these.
The simple fact is, if you are using nothing but electricity to condition the air in a house heat pumps are the most efficient option we got! and they are very efficient but a furnace running on natural gas is cheaper to run.
this chap's gonna be popular with the heat pump people.
My understanding is that they definitely work really well inside the heads of the people trying to get you to sign up for one!! Its a unicorn solution with big sales commission potential. I'm sure there might be a niche market for them but in no way is this the answer to everyone's heating dilemmas.
If you want green energy and the potential of some payback on your investment over time then solar for power and occasional backup heating, together with evacuated vacuum tube solar heating might prove a better bet. Spend your money more wisely on insulation and draughtproofing.
After heat pumps get to a certain age, they cannot be regassed. I think this might be as low as 10 years. Great upload, thanks for the useful advice.
How the HELL does the UK government expect ordinary British Citizens to afford to buy an air pump at approximately £8,000 (with government grant) + upgrading the insulation of their homes (to reduce heat loss)… WHEN A RAPIDLY GROWING NUMBER OF HARD WORKING HOME OWNERS CANNOT EVEN AFGORD TO PUT ENOUGH FOOD ON THEIR TABLES NOW??? 😡
If the UK government pass their unfair evil, ‘energy bill’, and FORCE EVERYONE to rip out our existing heating…Then I predict that Britain will see riot’s that will make the Poll Tax riots look like a kid’s tea party!
Roger - Need to look into Season Coefficient of Performance which is the average of its efficiency over year, but this seems to be a ruse to hide the poor efficiency in the winter when you are using it the most, whereas in the summer you may not be using it all.
you are right, I spooted that sleight of hand
I was told electric might go up a little but would save on gas haha it don’t use gas COP cop out for sure don’t get used in the summer does it because it’s a Heat Pump more chance of finding the G spot as the TM1or TE1never mind the Fixed Set Point.I can’t see the trees for the Forrest.I do like the Heat Geeks they have all the gear.
SCOP is based on total amount of kws created. Not based on the average outside temperature.. there for accounts for the added load at peak winter temperatures 👍
I heard your interview with Mr Shouty on the JV show, it was just as I thought, you were well balanced with your content, I wouldn’t believe a word shouty had to say. Seems to this layman that any older house you would be wasting your time. I do worry about the future of heating, especially as I approach retirement lol
It might be time to invest in a blanket to cover the legs whilst on the settee John?
@@Daniells1982 it will be very much cheaper than a naff heat pump 😃
Without a doubt mate. Stay safe (and warm). 😉
Roger another great video. I have an oil burner which we fitted an oil tally to. So we can measure how much oil we are using each day and log against outside Air temp.we started by using it in the morning and night time but found when running 24 7 it used basically the same oil. When have underfloor bu the way. Next step was to add more insulation to the oil burner and we save 20 of our oil. We seal around the window frames and wall and saved again we put one way vent on extractor fans and saved again. Some many things you can do to save fuel.
What vent did you use?
@@JeffPorters in line back draft excluder from Amazon. Stops the draft blowing in through the vent
I used a domestic oil tally from Amazon made by bell Uk it’s about 200 pound and to be honest it’s paid for it’s self in the first year with saving we made
Upon visiting a friends house he happened to mention that he had a ground source heat pump. I said 'But you have radiators, it won't work properly'. He said 'I know that now' and had to have a separate source of heating installed!
As with anything else, pushing everyone to install these will result in sub par contractors doing some of the work. Also, as with any other forms of heating, it will most likely be fine if the work is done by someone knowledgeable and qualified.
That's why I just install my own.
The big Achilles heel of heat pumps is the use of the wrong system for the building type. Domestic air to water systems are too slow and not powerful enough for poorly insulated and/or badly sealed buildings and unfortunately there are plenty of cowboy installers that will install them and run away. This is getting heat pumps a bad name. A good istaller will always make sure that the heat pump matches the application. If they run into problems making a selection they can call on independent building services engineers and get all the professional advice that they need.
@@mikekelly5869
You hit on it at the end. Installers have no business designing system applications. We could never afford to teach installers in physics and in particular thermodynamics, therefore we let engineers design and installers install - to the engineer's plan.
Anyone who lets an installer design their system is rolling the dice. That's not something that can be rightfully blamed on the equipment being installed. Won't stop people from trying though; anything goes to shift the blame.
We use ASHPs here in Minnesota just fine, mate.
Instructions often have these warnings, not because it's a particularly relevant concern, but because the law essentially requires it.
GSHPs are great, of course, but they cost 3-4x the amount of money and there are very few installers with experience putting them in.
The big problem is for those of us who already have AC it would be nice to have an hvac company come out and add a reversing valve and a water to heat exchanger to our already existing air conditioner twenty feet below I have all the heat I need just need to upgrade my unit
It's clear that even though you say that you are independent, you have trawled the Internet for the most obscure idiosyncrasies in heat pump manuals. My ASHP is going though its third winter. I'm very happy with it. It has a 16A supply so no need for a 6kW supply. It is correct that the system needs to be designed for the house and I'm happy that my installer went through the correct design process.
I heard Roger once drove a car and crashed it so he informed the world that cars are all terrible, because he knows best.
Nice one Roger. I've suspected for ages that ASHPs only work in the "right" situation, but you have put the facts out there that confirm it, so thank you for that.
I believe the current push towards "electricity for everything" to be a total con, and just another way to regulate the country's enconomy without having to put taxes up. Although that will happen as well. Gotta pay for all these vanity projects somehow... HS2 etc. etc.
What do you think we should use instead of electricity for low/zero carbon heating in the future? Heat pumps installed correctly already beat natural gas on carbon emissions though they are more expensive to install and at best only match gas on running costs.
All u say makes perfect sense, I talked with my Dad many years ago about this idea, I think it could be good to do a smaller area ground source with a lower level network used to feed extra heat down over the Summer, Heat rises a meter a month thru soil,
The backup heat on the outdoor unit is mainly to help during the defrosting cycle. Every once in a while, the unit needs to do this to melt away any snow/ice build up on the outdoor coil. Having the electric heat accelerates this process.
Not sure where you live but resistance heat strips operate quite often in conjunction with the heat pump as it cannot keep up with heat demand. The resistance heat strips are almost entirely on the outlet side of the unit so there fire not transferring any heat to the evaporator coil to aid in defrost. They’re there to prevent cold air from blowing into the conditioned space while in the defrost cycle!
Our units have no physical heater element, they go on to defrost automatically which entails them going on to cooling mode (valves change accordingly), and stop the air distribution on the inside unit. This occurs around 4 times an hour on average, and only for a few minutes each time.
Mitsubishi ecodans don’t use a back up heater at all.
It's the old cHEATER element... people think they are 'saving the planet' but they are just being mugged by snake oil salesmen and the electric company
Indeed. The person in this video is *clueless*. There is NO electrical heat element in the condenser to help ‘heat’ the pipes when the weather is cold. This is a total nonsense.
The electric pan heater - which, I will add is only available on ‘cold climate’ models; those that go down go -26c! - is simply there to ensure the drip pan doesn’t get frozen.
There is so much uninformed nonsense in this video. It’s embarrassing.
Thanks for the update on Ground Source Heating. Your advice is good for me, SB
Glad to help
@@SkillBuilder 👍
@@SkillBuilder coming around to changing my boiler this year
Thanks mate, nice to see someone who tells it as it is, I like my gas boiler and I'm keeping it .....😁👍
so you missed the part where basically everything he said was about nothing that does not also apply to gas boilers?
Makes you wonder if a good way to go would be electric rads (modern night storage heaters), solar PV and with battery store?
Even though I decided to install a heat pump last June I was still quite sceptical but, after nearly a year it has been brilliant, delivering all the heating we hoped for even down at -3degC and with plenty of headroom to spare, I would say down to around -7degC or less it will be able to maintain our desired room temps quite easily. Unlike our gas system we have been able to leave it running all day every day in the cold weather without any overall increase in cost. The saving in energy usage is quite extraordinary; our gas system used 21,000kWh per year, the heat pump around 4,000kWh per year.
Interested is what the guy in the video said wrong or do you have a modern well insulated house?
@@rob4214 not so much wrong just out of date based on a lot of older less efficient and/or badly installed systems. There is no question that modern heat pumps deliver if they are part of a well designed and installed system. Some of the criticisms around cost and grant funding have a point
Must have been something badly wrong with your old gas system. Heat pumps simply cannot deliver a better than 5:1 reduction in kWhr input. How much more does your electricity cost than gas/kWhr?
@@salamander5703 gas boiler was not that old and regularly serviced. If you live near enough I'd be happy to show you the ASHP installation, data, costs etc.
@@lumbarsupport All a bit vague for those not living near enough. Was yours a condensing gas boiler for a start? Most of us just do not have the money to rip up and re-pipe our houses and change the radiators? In fact using our current gas systems is a bit like having to use using expensive credit because we just do not have cash in hand, so never ideal but just cannot be avoided. What was your total install cost?
Recent builds also have micro bore piping so the government allowing this and advocating a future of heat pumps just shows what an utterly confusing mess these initiatives are and any system is going to be brilliant with enough cash in hand to implement it. For most over 70s like me the payback on a loan for it exceeds likely life span so is not an option. If I was going to spend any money it would be on counter current ventilation which creates a healthier indoor environment. Just look at Grand Designs which is where a lot of this fanciful eco stuff is promulgated and they usually have this, plus always under floor heating whilst the rest are stuck with draughty houses just to be able to breath and of course radiators which generate even more draughts.
You know what you are talking about 100% correct. Keep up the good job of informing people. We do need to go back to clean nuclear plants to get good clean electricity and back up wind and solar electricity. 95% of cases heat pumps work great.
So what would you recommend apart from a expensive ground source heat pump? Stick with a gas boiler or wait for hydrogen boilers?
If you have a gas boiler keep it and spend money on insulation
Hydrogen will never come.
hydrogen might make sense powering air or heavy transport, but for heating homes, it's not going to be cost-effective.
The ASHP that was installed in my small cottage almost 9 years ago has never worked properly - it was installed cheaply by a cowboy contracted by my local authority - I’m in rented accommodation. The person utterly wrecked my house systematically room by room and installed the wrong sized radiators all in the wrong areas. No insulation under the floor boards and left hot and cold pipes touching and crossing. The noise from the pipes was so horrendous that i moved out of my bedroom 7 years ago. My landlord has refused to take responsibility so I’m taking them to court now.
GOOD LUC! 🤞 🍀
I attended a party hosted by a couple extremely concerned about climate change but were prevented from fitting a heat pump due to a restrictive preservation order. They still insisted that the pumps will save the lives of those who survive winter. I made my excuses and left. Happily due to the husband's enforced resignation they are free to find a property far removed from Downing Street and suitable for a heat pump.
Very good. I hope you managed to sneak a bottle of Chateau Neuf out under your coat or was that the Bring Your Own?
@@SkillBuilder just one question for you Roger if I may, what is your opinion on electric combi boilers?
@@kryptonite9187. I was wondering about these too, I had read they are used in some of the Scottish Isles were gas and oil are hard to supply.
@@kryptonite9187 I've fitted one: They are seriously heavy full of water and not suitable for a first floor linen cupboard swap out. Bigger output ones need 3 phase electric! and this isn't always available from the leccy board in rural areas. No idea if they meet the claimed running costs but with the cost of electric ATM, I would think VERY costly to run. HTH
Hi, I’m new the the world of heat pumps. I bought a 3 year old property last year which has a heat pump system installed. We moved in to the property in the summer of 2021 and everything seemed fine, that was until the winter when we turned the heating on (didn’t know it should be running all of the time). After a couple of days we lost all heat and hot water just before Christmas. We had a local (air source expert) company come and take a look. After an hour or so then managed to get it running long enough for them to drive away, then it all stopped again. On a return visit they said it was the flow temperature and did a “work around”. It has worked from there on but seems to be costing a small fortune to run. After watching your videos and seeing other systems, I’m convinced that the system isn’t fit for the property or installed correctly. Unfortunately, to get this looked at is going to cost me money I don’t have. Even worse it’ll probably need replacing or upgrading. It seems that the company that installed it did a rush job to get the government grant and because it was fitted for the builder and not me I doubt there is anything anyone can do about it. So currently, the system is heating the water and I’m heating the home with a log burner until it get too cold. In addition, every home I have been to that has an air source heat pump has been pretty much a sealed unit. Something my house isn’t. Anyway if anyone can help me in anyway it’d be greatly appreciated. Al
Hi Al
I imagine they have by- passed the weather compensation because that can cause these problems. The flow rate has to be kept high but a lot of installers don't want to put a buffer in so it depends on the pipes being large enough. They have to be huge in some cases. I was kind of hoping that Heat Geeks would start looking at these problems on their channel but they don't want negative case studies.
@@SkillBuilder I’m not 100% sure what’s been done. The last engineer said it hadn’t been set up correctly and made some changes that seemed to keep it running. I contacted Mitsubishi when it first stopped working but because the data connection hasn’t been added they couldn’t do anything. It would be interesting to see what an actual air source heat pump expert would have to say about the setup.
Air Sourced heat pumps have been going in to commercial buildings for years and a lot of the points here have been overcome. Like anything you need to consider the design. Location of the unit is important. You can order different coil coating to stop and reduce corrosion. I have units that are suffering from costal locations even without any protection they are over 20 years old now and suffering. If they had been protected i might get 30 years. The problem the parts are obsolete. Some of these units going in now you might well have parts availability issues in 10 years time. Printed circuit boards etc. In colder location they are going to have issues. However here in Bucks the average winter temp is 7 degs C. Yes there are a few cold days but it is not going to be a problem. I can see issues in some parts of the country where they suffer from lower winter temps.
Hi Roger, it's the fool here (the guy that wanted to create, "Draft Masters" {you suggested, "Draught Masters" might be better}). I've got two ideas:
* If heat pumps extract warm air from the environment could they be housed in a lean to conservatory (Bob Mortimer wants to push the boundaries with a "lean three" or even a "lean four" {from WILTY : J-Keg})? That would also solve a lot of the sheltering requirements (wind, rain, snow, rodents, etc)
* Is this idea any good? Again, using a lean to conservatory, just have two fans and a few thermostats. When the temperature differential is high enough between the conservatory and the house, "power on". Have one fan blowing air into the house and the other blowing it back into the conservatory (maybe one fan and an associated vent on the other side of the lean to would be enough.
My best friend, Brian, is self installing heat pumps and it's a disaster. He is routing all the pipework and control cables on the outside of his house and it looks terrible. I suggested he tear down the drywall and route it through the internal walls but he said that would be too much work. Why do a job if you don't have the skill or desire to do it perfectly? Just pay more and get the experts in. I felt Brian should have gone with solar panels and a lean to. If Heat Geeks saw his install they'd probably either burst into laughter or tears or possibly both.
PS #1 RB pities the fool with no building skills, he pities those fools!
PS #2 Never work as a ladyboy, you as Margaret Thatcher was even more terrifying than the Iron Lady herself.
👏 Nice one, Roger. I wasn't ever going to get a heat pump (too much work and cost for me) and I''ll be waiting for Watchdog to start calling out the heat pump evangelists on mis-selling. As for air quality? Hmmmm.
I would take your word over anything on the BBC. Decent video, thanks
It seems to me that, for the UK at least, for the time being, a mixture of sources to heat our homes is still going to be needed for the foreseeable future. Not everyone will be able to install air or ground source heat pumps, for various different reasons and the situation in understanding these technologies is still being tested (here in the UK) as we have been so used to heating with gas.
The key element towards heating your home sufficiently is insulation. Insulate your home as much as you can, including your floors and draft proof your external doors and windows. You'll be amazed at how much heat escapes through your floors.
That, coupled with adequate ventilation and being sensible with how you use your heating appliances. We heat our four bed edwardian semi to no more than 19 degrees Celsius and of course only heating the rooms we are using at any given time through our smart radiator thermostats. Yes, only when the temp falls below 0 do we use our multi-fuel stove for a few hours in the evenings to support the system, but that has been few and far between.
and let's not forget putting clothes on rather than ramping up the heat.
I think you'd make a great PM and Lord knows your country needs one right now😁
I wouldn't last longer than a ripe avocado
Thanks Roger. I had an Air Source Heat Pump installed in my bungalow with underfloor heating throughout. I fully lined the bungalow with 50mm Celotex and made it fairly airtight. It works well and is at reasonable cost, and the bungalow remains a fairly even 22 degrees for several days after I turn the heating off. The issue is the system often goes to the fault setting and shuts off, typically around when most rooms are up to temperature. It is really annoying and I will need to see if i can balance the bypass and individual runs! As a former plumber I was horrified by the poor knowledge of those who fitted the system, including up and over pipework not having any way to remove the air!
did you solve this issue? Low loss header?
The quality of the installers is the biggest problem right now with ASHP's - as is adequately illustrated by the cluelessness of Roger in this video.
Hi Steven, Is the problem solved? do you have a buffer tank installed between the heat pump and your installation? I guess your system is shutting off because it does not need any more heat from the heat pump when the rooms are at temperature. I consider to install a heating pump and learned that a buffer tank in the system will level the heat energy and keeps the pump running more continuously on lower level which increases the cop! hope this may be of help to you
With electric Buses, Lorries, Trains, Trams, Excavators, Vans, cars, motorcycles, scooters etc, not to mention all the tech junk we rely on together with cordless everything at home and work, and now heat pumps galore, I find it amazing that the power grid can handle it now, let alone in the coming decades with an ever increasing population. We shall see...
Great info again Roger, thanks.
We're living in times of rampant BS unfortunately and can't believe various countries are/have decommissioned nuclear energy plants
But this video is full of bullshit too.
I think this is very well spoken with a lot of truth. Things that he didn't mention are probably when their life is spent a lot of garbage/waste of materials like copper. Another is the gas used, the new gases not freon, though not harmful to the ozone layer, they are greenhouses gases and leakes are very probable.
I recently stayed in a holiday cottage with modern electric radiators, I couldn’t believe how well they worked. I guess they would be deemed ‘inefficient’, but when you compare purchase cost, installation cost and ongoing maintenance cost, would the electric radiators not work out a better solution?
My main concern with the heat pumps is the noise, I was really surprised recently at just how noisy they are. Ok if you have a massive house and can get them tucked away somewhere - but for the majority of UK property which is cheek by jowl (particularly new build) it is going to cause neighbour disputes. Not sure how they are exempt from any sort of noise control?
Thank you for keeping up the challenge on this one.
As someone who owns a holiday cottage with electric radiators I can vouch for their effectiveness, but they are _bloody_ expensive to run in winter (which is when rates are lowest), and that was before the recent energy price hikes. They also are not very cheap to buy. Outfitting a lot of rooms can add up pretty quick, although it would have to be a big house to equal the cost of a new boiler and rads. They do have the advantage of not needing pipework running, and there are no leaks to worry about. If the government ever use levies/taxes to push people away from gas and onto electric then they will probably make more sense.
I've 11 radiators. Electric would be 2kW each, so 22kW. That is pretty much 100 amps if you want the capability to have them all on at the same time (unlikely but possible).
Such a high load puts your house cabling at risk and you may also blow the house main fuse.
Work well but very expensive to run.
@@jeremylister89 Your home has conductors sized for the installed loads. If there are electric baseboard heaters their conductors will be appropriately sized. There is absolutely no danger involved. Yes these heaters draw plenty of amps, and running costs are high. However, they are perhaps the safest form of heat available.
@@stephen-boddy Electric baseboard heaters are dirt cheap here in Canada and the States. That's why builders like them. But running costs are very high.
Some friends of ours building a new house - triple glazing, underfloor heating etc. etc. - were advised that a HP made no sense because their main energy requirement is hot water not heating and HP are crap for hot water. Surely, if a HP makes no sense for a property like that, they don't make sense for anyone?
That is a good point. Are they on mains gas?
@@SkillBuilder Yep. Advised there's no point getting a heat pump because the increased electricity demand would outweigh any savings, although it wasn't clear where those would come from. The guy telling them this could have sold them a heat pump to be fair to him.
12:03 that image will haunt me till the day i die...
I prefer my heat from a wood stove or fireplace. The heat produced by wood burning is good for me with my life-long skin condition, it helps my skin not be dry. When I'm in a place with electric heating or these hot water heaters here, my skin is quite dry again and often itchy. And with the heat pump in my parents house (I rent a space in) it is causing a huge problem for my health. My lungs are bad now. The coughing can get serious some of the time. I already had a health problem before moving here, now this. I feel like I'm not gonna survive into Spring, as bad as it has gotten. Others in the house are dealing some level of coughing and my dad with his cancer and radiation treatments is not doing so good either. The heat pump things is making him worse too. But my mother has to be The Big Boss in the house, and she won't do anything about any issues here. She don't listen, she plays it out like everyone else is dumb and don't know what they're talking about, and like she has to be the smarter one. Too often uses that line about her age makes her more experienced and smarter, but she really doesn't know all that much. I spent my life learning alot about many things, learning science, paying attention to details and really thinking about what I learn and have experience in multiple things. But she don't listen and makes it out like I'm lying or don't know what I'm talking about. Except when it comes to fixing an issue with her computer or phone, I'm the only one she turns to for that.
Acoustic technician here, the external units DO make noise, and I've already been called several times to places where the neighbours wanted to sue the owners of the plant.
My advice is to ask a professional to evaluate the problem and get involved in the choice of the unit to be installed and on the spot of installation.
@@green4661 Exactly. Forget about high-density terraced housing in cities - the UK just isn't used to that much noise at night.
Hello Roger, me again, said I would give you an honest update on my ASHP, the install went well, I decided to put the pump on the extension roof, the roof is new build and 18" depth and well insulated. The pump runs quiet, but I have noticed when the air temp is low (for example around 2C ) it ramps up, and so does the noise, but not where it is intrusive. As for the efficiency I reckon I am getting 1-3.8 which ain't bad for this time of year. Also, the ambient temp in the house really never drops bellow 15C and usually hangs around 17C so we really only use it in the mornings and afternoons if needed. For a comparison I would say the HP is using the same output as our washing machine. At the mo most radiators are performing well, but there are a couple that are not, they have been balanced but for some unknown reason they are only half hot, this may change with time. On the whole I am happy with it, I realise it is not for everyone the cost alone is prohibitive for many. The system is now fully integrated with my solar too. Finally, this was never a vanity project, I am not a 'green' person, I did it because I could. My LPG tanks will be removed shortly, I have a plan for the new space I get...