Thank you for the insight. One thing I ruminated: with product photography, one can build a career without putting up with the social media hussle. Only that kind of job will never be too rewarding either in the artistic sense or monetarily.
The more I like to see my progress in photography by learning and being on the field, the less I want it to be a job. What’s the point of leaving a job to avoid things that you don’t like in order to have to be on Instagram and all this non sense social media pretending... I don’t want to become Peter McKinnon, but more like you guys ! (feelings involved here xD)
Pretty discouraging that we are heading down a road where your work can no longer speak for itself. Good shots with good social media skills outshines great work with weak social media skills. That said....great video. Love Lee's point on cleaning toilets "I don't do that part of the business"
Understanding and controlling the process of creating an image is what makes you a professional, not what AI software tells you! And this is valid for I guess all professions.
I define professional as a person whose living is based on the income generated by the activity, even if the professional's skill level is below mediocre. One can be great at a certain field, even a world famous expert or artist, but still a hobbyist, if that activity does not contribute to their living.
I 100% agree with everything they are talking about because I'm having trouble marketing myself due to not being a real social media guy. I'm learning but it's a completely a different animal.
If digital had never developed (see what I did there?), and we were stuck with film, I would never have gotten back into photography. I did not enjoy the film process at all. Today, I love the instant learning, adapting and results, I love post processing. I love the accessible technology we have. You don't have to spend a lot to create, so it opens it up to many people.
Got to say, this was a really great conversation. You are so, so right about the quality of images not being the differentiation anymore! Digital photography with all the software in cameras, in smart phones, in post processing applications - it has leveled the field to the point where anyone willing to invest a bit of time and effort can be a "photographer". I started out a little over 30 years ago and have experienced that resistance to "go digital". All of a sudden everywhere I turn there's people with good cameras taking great pictures and my experience is meaningless. You're right - either adapt or perish. I still do a bit of "pro" work on the side, but honestly I no longer see photography as having the career potential it once did. That does sadden me I must admit, but alas that is the reality.
I ve been having this same conversation with my self ahah ... I m happy you guys put it out there !! Best talk / listen for a while ... a nice change from all the depressing new ... oh wait .. this is a bit depressing too ahah - be safe
Thoughtful conversation on a subject that I often think about, where is our industry heading? I'm even older than these guys so I've experienced the changes, through the decades, from clients wanting highly polished 'concept' photographs to them now seeking spontaneous images that mimic candids you would see on Facebook. The equipment has gotten to the point where the technical gap between what someone like me would hand over, versus a person with far less experience, is way smaller than it used to be. But just as the commentators said in the video, there is no substitute for experience, both in how I work with the client and subjects, as well as pulling off 'keeper images' that often must be shot in situations that are far less than ideal. All that said, I was struck with dread by their observation that clients might now be seeking photographers with a social media 'presence'. I might end up being left in the dust with that stuff; I'd be out of my league and with absolutely no interest in even trying to keep up.
If the quality of my image is not important, screw it I'll shoot for myself. I've been doing this since 1987, so I've seen the movement from in camera meters all the way to I phones. If you like my stuff, great. If you don't great.
I agree that cameras + software makes good photos easier to get. If anything, photographers, with a few exceptions, have gotten worse because they can set everything on automatic and the photos will, for the most part, be usable. Try giving these new photographers a Yashica Mat or Nikon F, or an all manual Leica, and see what results they get. I love the new cameras and new software. But they don't creat content.
All about post-production now. A lot of new photographers in my market are under the age of 24. They're terrible photographers (in-camera), but use amazing-looking filters. And the filters are usually whatever is trending (currently desaturated , very warm, orange tones OR dark & moody). And guess what? The clients love their photos because the finished product looks artsy. My style has always been very true-to-life colors and tones, and now I'm starting to get brides ask me if I edit my photos simply because my style isn't that overly edited, highly-filtered look.
Hey guys love your videos! I have a challenge to help with this subject somewhat. A challenge where each if you use a phone camera, expensive camera, and middle if the road camera and see if you can get the same results or at least not be able to tell the difference.
I can already tell you there will be a big difference. A dslr or camera that has changeable lenses will always be superior due to depth/focusing. Yes you can get a very nice image on the phones now but over all its lenses that make the difference, nevermind the posing, lighting, editing, etc... By the way there are actually videos of this exact kind of comparison. But i just saved you the time lol. People forget that its not actually the camera that gets you amazing images. Its how you use it, what you're putting in the frame and how you edit it. So you COULD get amazing images with a phone IF done correctly but it will still limit you because of the lenses/anvanced features. You'll never get a wide shot or close up to look nearly as good as a real camera that has a wide angle or macro lens. Lenses change the shape/environments of things. Phones can "zoom" but it is not the same
This was informative and entertaining. I feel like some very good points were made here, particularly the marketing/social media side. I think one thing that wasn't discussed as much as it deserves is knowing WHAT to shoot at. Capturing the right moments can be a differentiator, and I don't think it is anything that excellent equipment alone can bring to the table. There is an instinct and alertness to getting those few moments when they happen and you can't go back and fix that post production. Anyway it's true that even if you can do this you'll probably need to be on top of your social media game to monitize it.
The definition of quality ---that seems to be changing. But I get it...becoming obsolete f-ing hurts. It hurts me so I am with ya! As the old cliche goes - change is inevitable.... f-ing cliche.... :-)
There's software now that analyzes photos and tells whether they have been "Photoshopped". I wonder if it can detect artificial blur (the Japanese word bokeh means blur, according to dictionaries).
Look at the great photographers of the past such as Dorthea Lang, Robert Capa and the cameras they used. Lang made the iconic depression/dust bowl photo. In the final analysis, to paraphrase Frank Lloyd Wright, form follows content. It's content that makes a photograph great.
The barrier to entry for doing photography is far lower than it used to be which is bad for people that have spent a life time mastering this skill. The internet kills another profession, a few more years it will be gone. Lee you are hitting the nail on the head in this discussion.
In 5 or 10 years later, big body camera will no more exist, they gonna get light and tiny. But the photography never dies, because the people behind it, photography is not base on your gear, its your idea and result. So on on videograph or movie
Are today's photographers doing themselves a disservice following post processing and social media trends rather than developing their individual style?
Good points made but to me as pure hobbyist photographer it sounds like the basic idea here is that you have to be famous, the best of the best or at least among the top 10 (or whatever) to be counted as being successful. What if you just want to make a living from your photography? And by that I mean "normal living" so not having to live in a big manson, driving the biggest, newest car etc... a normal income by doing what you like. I feel like this should still be possible without having to have thousands of followers on youtube or instagram or working for the biggest clienst or am I completly wrong there?
Of course you can making a living that way. Not everyone wants to work with some big online personality. Just as long as your work is GOOD, youre consistent and a friendly person to work with then thats all that matters. There are a lot of just average people in the world that only want to recieve good results and have a nice experience. I think these guys were exaggerating in this video a bit
well the word famous comes from the greek word feme, which means something became known by a word of mouth. doing a good job which includes good pictures, hard work, be there on time, be polite and do all they ask you to do, deliver on time and so fourth, will always and I mean for the next 100 years will overpower the corks (something that floats, stays on top not because its worth it but because its lite) that they may seem to be popular but at the end they cannot deliver what their fame promised. and people they can tell the difference. not all of the people but most of them. having thousands of likes doesn't mean that people will hire you eventually. there is always the inerview with the client that will shift the balance towards you and not to the guy with the thousands of likes. it may take more time to build a clientele , but it will last more seasons, in contrast to the ephemeral work of the social media will get you.
I totally see the quality of photos increasing, but what about the quality of the story of the photo? I see more snapshot style photos now and nothing telling the story. I definitely struggle with showing the story. People have all the basics down, but there's no story. Just a beautifully edited and lit photo. That looks cool, but it's like there isn't much story to tell anymore... What are your thoughts on that guys? (Obviously there are still amazing photographers with a TON of stories to show and tell, but I'm thinking the vast majority out there)
I couldnt agree more. The exact same thing has happened in the video or "filmmaking" world as well (im originally a filmmaker but also a photographer). So many videos being pumped out that just "look" nice lol theres absolutely no story or real substance. Its frustrating but kinda funny at the same time because these people think their pros for being able to throw a bunch of B-roll clips together with fancy transitions, those are the kinds of videos you make when youre just starting out to get the feel of making videos lol so i think the same applies to photography as well. Getting down the basics of taking pictures is not the final step, there is not final step. We're supposed to be constantly learning/growing and telling stories with each piece of work not just creating pretty images. Unless you're thing is stock photography/video lol. By the way im not trying to say im some pro that has perfect work either
I hate that photography has went to very little talent is needed at the camera. It’s all about a computer program. I was a photojournalist in the 80’s through 2000. All but last couple years was on film cameras where you actually had to know how to expose and what f stops variations looked like by knowledge not by shoot and look and then adjust. Talent and knowledge are gone it’s all about shoot it pray look at the camera and then adjust. Very few photographers today could last a day in the pre digital, photoshop days. Very few images anymore represent what was at the scene but what a computer program sees !! Plus the dark room work to process and print you photos was so raw !!
I'm gonna do a comparison to the Nfl. Guy on the left and guy on the right are dinosaurs and the Pye is the modern. The Nfl recently has changed in the styles of quarterbacks. Now you have Qbs that are running Qbs comparison to the older Qbs like Brady, Manning, Rothenberg, Rodgers, etc... the style has changed. It's old school vs new school. The nfl is but running Qbs now, no longer the old style or Qbs. That's how it is in photography. You guys did all the hard work in lights, etc. Now it's just software technology that makes it easier to the photography, less manual work, less studying and technology does the work.
To me, it's not that people are using phone pics, it's that people are actually asking photographers to make their work look it was taken with a phone and had cheap looking filters applied. That noted, you need to produce a product that is clearly separated from a mobile phone image.
I love you Pye, but your friends have been spreading misinformation and conspiracy theories about the virus. I hope it bites in the behind at some point. Also, it would have been good to diclose when this video was shot. Social distancing was not a thing on this video, and it leaves the impression that you and Adorama don’t care.
these 3 are talking about two diffent things and treating them as the same, taking good photos dosnt make you a good business person. I think people who dont run a photography business shouldnt try to teach about the photography business.
Great conversation, I think people are becoming better graphic artist than they are photographers if you will.
Thank you for the insight. One thing I ruminated: with product photography, one can build a career without putting up with the social media hussle. Only that kind of job will never be too rewarding either in the artistic sense or monetarily.
One of the most insightful videos on the current state of the business of professional photography.
Glad you thought so! Thanks for watching!
The more I like to see my progress in photography by learning and being on the field, the less I want it to be a job. What’s the point of leaving a job to avoid things that you don’t like in order to have to be on Instagram and all this non sense social media pretending...
I don’t want to become Peter McKinnon, but more like you guys ! (feelings involved here xD)
Pretty discouraging that we are heading down a road where your work can no longer speak for itself. Good shots with good social media skills outshines great work with weak social media skills.
That said....great video. Love Lee's point on cleaning toilets "I don't do that part of the business"
This video is very informative and right on time. Great job guys !!!
superb content, nice to see you all! very useful and experienced opinions
My favourite trio of photographers!
Patrick, good to see you back. Hope your health has vastly improved to some sense of normalcy. 🙏🏻
Understanding and controlling the process of creating an image is what makes you a professional, not what AI software tells you! And this is valid for I guess all professions.
I define professional as a person whose living is based on the income generated by the activity, even if the professional's skill level is below mediocre. One can be great at a certain field, even a world famous expert or artist, but still a hobbyist, if that activity does not contribute to their living.
What makes you a professional is if you do it for money - ie the definition of a profession - nothing else
Very enjoyable topic 🤘
I 100% agree with everything they are talking about because I'm having trouble marketing myself due to not being a real social media guy. I'm learning but it's a completely a different animal.
Wow can’t believe this is the 3rd video I’ve crossed. I want to be a professional and want to build a business on the next 5 years.
If digital had never developed (see what I did there?), and we were stuck with film, I would never have gotten back into photography. I did not enjoy the film process at all. Today, I love the instant learning, adapting and results, I love post processing. I love the accessible technology we have. You don't have to spend a lot to create, so it opens it up to many people.
Got to say, this was a really great conversation. You are so, so right about the quality of images not being the differentiation anymore! Digital photography with all the software in cameras, in smart phones, in post processing applications - it has leveled the field to the point where anyone willing to invest a bit of time and effort can be a "photographer". I started out a little over 30 years ago and have experienced that resistance to "go digital". All of a sudden everywhere I turn there's people with good cameras taking great pictures and my experience is meaningless. You're right - either adapt or perish. I still do a bit of "pro" work on the side, but honestly I no longer see photography as having the career potential it once did. That does sadden me I must admit, but alas that is the reality.
great topics and great approach!
Awesome talk
Great conversation boyzzz!!! Just kidding once again awesome content!
This topic is interesting for someone like me that's just started photography
I ve been having this same conversation with my self ahah ... I m happy you guys put it out there !! Best talk / listen for a while ... a nice change from all the depressing new ... oh wait .. this is a bit depressing too ahah - be safe
Thoughtful conversation on a subject that I often think about, where is our industry heading? I'm even older than these guys so I've experienced the changes, through the decades, from clients wanting highly polished 'concept' photographs to them now seeking spontaneous images that mimic candids you would see on Facebook. The equipment has gotten to the point where the technical gap between what someone like me would hand over, versus a person with far less experience, is way smaller than it used to be. But just as the commentators said in the video, there is no substitute for experience, both in how I work with the client and subjects, as well as pulling off 'keeper images' that often must be shot in situations that are far less than ideal. All that said, I was struck with dread by their observation that clients might now be seeking photographers with a social media 'presence'. I might end up being left in the dust with that stuff; I'd be out of my league and with absolutely no interest in even trying to keep up.
If the quality of my image is not important, screw it I'll shoot for myself. I've been doing this since 1987, so I've seen the movement from in camera meters all the way to I phones. If you like my stuff, great. If you don't great.
I agree that cameras + software makes good photos easier to get. If anything, photographers, with a few exceptions, have gotten worse because they can set everything on automatic and the photos will, for the most part, be usable. Try giving these new photographers a Yashica Mat or Nikon F, or an all manual Leica, and see what results they get. I love the new cameras and new software. But they don't creat content.
All about post-production now. A lot of new photographers in my market are under the age of 24. They're terrible photographers (in-camera), but use amazing-looking filters. And the filters are usually whatever is trending (currently desaturated , very warm, orange tones OR dark & moody). And guess what? The clients love their photos because the finished product looks artsy. My style has always been very true-to-life colors and tones, and now I'm starting to get brides ask me if I edit my photos simply because my style isn't that overly edited, highly-filtered look.
Hey guys love your videos! I have a challenge to help with this subject somewhat. A challenge where each if you use a phone camera, expensive camera, and middle if the road camera and see if you can get the same results or at least not be able to tell the difference.
I can already tell you there will be a big difference. A dslr or camera that has changeable lenses will always be superior due to depth/focusing. Yes you can get a very nice image on the phones now but over all its lenses that make the difference, nevermind the posing, lighting, editing, etc... By the way there are actually videos of this exact kind of comparison. But i just saved you the time lol. People forget that its not actually the camera that gets you amazing images. Its how you use it, what you're putting in the frame and how you edit it. So you COULD get amazing images with a phone IF done correctly but it will still limit you because of the lenses/anvanced features. You'll never get a wide shot or close up to look nearly as good as a real camera that has a wide angle or macro lens. Lenses change the shape/environments of things. Phones can "zoom" but it is not the same
This was informative and entertaining. I feel like some very good points were made here, particularly the marketing/social media side. I think one thing that wasn't discussed as much as it deserves is knowing WHAT to shoot at. Capturing the right moments can be a differentiator, and I don't think it is anything that excellent equipment alone can bring to the table. There is an instinct and alertness to getting those few moments when they happen and you can't go back and fix that post production. Anyway it's true that even if you can do this you'll probably need to be on top of your social media game to monitize it.
The definition of quality ---that seems to be changing. But I get it...becoming obsolete f-ing hurts. It hurts me so I am with ya! As the old cliche goes - change is inevitable.... f-ing cliche.... :-)
There's software now that analyzes photos and tells whether they have been "Photoshopped". I wonder if it can detect artificial blur (the Japanese word bokeh means blur, according to dictionaries).
Look at the great photographers of the past such as Dorthea Lang, Robert Capa and the cameras they used. Lang made the iconic depression/dust bowl photo. In the final analysis, to paraphrase Frank Lloyd Wright, form follows content. It's content that makes a photograph great.
not in isolation?
This was filmed/edited prior to the COVID-19 global pandemic.
It's was recorded long time ago
The barrier to entry for doing photography is far lower than it used to be which is bad for people that have spent a life time mastering this skill. The internet kills another profession, a few more years it will be gone. Lee you are hitting the nail on the head in this discussion.
In 5 or 10 years later, big body camera will no more exist, they gonna get light and tiny. But the photography never dies, because the people behind it, photography is not base on your gear, its your idea and result. So on on videograph or movie
Are today's photographers doing themselves a disservice following post processing and social media trends rather than developing their individual style?
Good points made but to me as pure hobbyist photographer it sounds like the basic idea here is that you have to be famous, the best of the best or at least among the top 10 (or whatever) to be counted as being successful. What if you just want to make a living from your photography? And by that I mean "normal living" so not having to live in a big manson, driving the biggest, newest car etc... a normal income by doing what you like. I feel like this should still be possible without having to have thousands of followers on youtube or instagram or working for the biggest clienst or am I completly wrong there?
Of course you can making a living that way. Not everyone wants to work with some big online personality. Just as long as your work is GOOD, youre consistent and a friendly person to work with then thats all that matters. There are a lot of just average people in the world that only want to recieve good results and have a nice experience. I think these guys were exaggerating in this video a bit
well the word famous comes from the greek word feme, which means something became known by a word of mouth. doing a good job which includes good pictures, hard work, be there on time, be polite and do all they ask you to do, deliver on time and so fourth, will always and I mean for the next 100 years will overpower the corks (something that floats, stays on top not because its worth it but because its lite) that they may seem to be popular but at the end they cannot deliver what their fame promised. and people they can tell the difference. not all of the people but most of them. having thousands of likes doesn't mean that people will hire you eventually. there is always the inerview with the client that will shift the balance towards you and not to the guy with the thousands of likes. it may take more time to build a clientele , but it will last more seasons, in contrast to the ephemeral work of the social media will get you.
I totally see the quality of photos increasing, but what about the quality of the story of the photo? I see more snapshot style photos now and nothing telling the story. I definitely struggle with showing the story. People have all the basics down, but there's no story. Just a beautifully edited and lit photo. That looks cool, but it's like there isn't much story to tell anymore... What are your thoughts on that guys? (Obviously there are still amazing photographers with a TON of stories to show and tell, but I'm thinking the vast majority out there)
I couldnt agree more. The exact same thing has happened in the video or "filmmaking" world as well (im originally a filmmaker but also a photographer). So many videos being pumped out that just "look" nice lol theres absolutely no story or real substance. Its frustrating but kinda funny at the same time because these people think their pros for being able to throw a bunch of B-roll clips together with fancy transitions, those are the kinds of videos you make when youre just starting out to get the feel of making videos lol so i think the same applies to photography as well. Getting down the basics of taking pictures is not the final step, there is not final step. We're supposed to be constantly learning/growing and telling stories with each piece of work not just creating pretty images. Unless you're thing is stock photography/video lol. By the way im not trying to say im some pro that has perfect work either
I hate that photography has went to very little talent is needed at the camera. It’s all about a computer program. I was a photojournalist in the 80’s through 2000. All but last couple years was on film cameras where you actually had to know how to expose and what f stops variations looked like by knowledge not by shoot and look and then adjust. Talent and knowledge are gone it’s all about shoot it pray look at the camera and then adjust. Very few photographers today could last a day in the pre digital, photoshop days. Very few images anymore represent what was at the scene but what a computer program sees !! Plus the dark room work to process and print you photos was so raw !!
We want to know about those wonderful cinematographers too. Could you name a few, please?
I use 99 % digital camera. For the 1% i always carry an medium format....
👍
Gee...everyone got a plug except Adorama.
👍👍
I'm gonna do a comparison to the Nfl. Guy on the left and guy on the right are dinosaurs and the Pye is the modern. The Nfl recently has changed in the styles of quarterbacks. Now you have Qbs that are running Qbs comparison to the older Qbs like Brady, Manning, Rothenberg, Rodgers, etc... the style has changed. It's old school vs new school. The nfl is but running Qbs now, no longer the old style or Qbs. That's how it is in photography. You guys did all the hard work in lights, etc. Now it's just software technology that makes it easier to the photography, less manual work, less studying and technology does the work.
16:00 ME
I love the leaking a fake Tutorial video
But do you have shrimp photography? ;)
Nowadays people just use their iPhone 11 to take pictures instead of hiring us
To me, it's not that people are using phone pics, it's that people are actually asking photographers to make their work look it was taken with a phone and had cheap looking filters applied. That noted, you need to produce a product that is clearly separated from a mobile phone image.
If you can not provide something more than a selfie - sure.
wait what?
This was filmed/edited prior to the COVID-19 global pandemic.
I love you Pye, but your friends have been spreading misinformation and conspiracy theories about the virus. I hope it bites in the behind at some point. Also, it would have been good to diclose when this video was shot. Social distancing was not a thing on this video, and it leaves the impression that you and Adorama don’t care.
these 3 are talking about two diffent things and treating them as the same, taking good photos dosnt make you a good business person. I think people who dont run a photography business shouldnt try to teach about the photography business.
Could not agree more - photography good or bad has never had anything to do with it!!
Huge fan of Adorama TV but, these guys just don't do it for me, "the majority of photographers are shooting all natural light now" 🤔🤔😵
Can you all stop wearing sandals. You’re men, wear some shoes. :-D
Wow can’t believe this is the second video I’ve crossed. I want to be a professional and want to build a business on the next 5 years.