When I was a working, successful photographer, I only cared that two people liked my photos - Me and my client. Now, that I am retired, I have lowered that number to one.
Interesting. I gave up going to camera clubs decades ago when I realized I didn't need to be judged so long as I was happy learning from my mistakes and educating myself
Years ago I worked as a photographer for a local newspaper. I was asked to be a judge at a local camera club competition. I found the vast majority of the photos to be nearly clones of each other. It seemed to me that the club had a certain idea of how photos should look and everyone followed what they considered the norm. There was very little creativity. I also noticed that the same three people had won every competition in the past; they were the senior officers of the club. I picked what I felt were the most creative of the photos and they did not include the three officers work. I was never asked to be judge again.
Me too.. after a few years as a Press Photographer on a Regional Evening paper ( change of career but still was a passionate "hobbyist" When I retired I decided to joying the local camera club..... After 2 months of trying my damn best to "integrate" and show interest, to see the same people win every club comp. The rest seemed to simply treat the club as a social club, a place to meet to chat and not take part in any photography related way. There were little cliques huddled in groups that made no effort to welcome and encourage new members...... I left after that 3 months, my suspicions proven....
I've been a member of photo clubs for quite sometime now, at least 20 years or more, and have always found them to be places where I have improved and learnt new technics. I don't always appreciate the style of other people's photos, but I can still learn something from them. I guess I've been lucky with the different clubs I've joined, where friendship, encouragement and constructive criticism are values that rank highly, and it's not about simply obeying photo technics and rules!
I was a complete newcomer to photography when I joined up with our local photography group - I didn't even know how to copy photos onto an usb stick [ got laughed at for that ] - everyone was on a different level with myself at the bottom - the same 3 people would win Photo of the Week so I decided my time would be better spent at home or outside with my camera . That was 10 years ago , I'm still not that confident of showing my photos on photography forums so I post them on my FB page for friends to critique [ and yes I realise that's the wrong way to go about things too ] .
@peterwilliams6114 no it isn't Peter. Take pictures for yourself first. Over 40 years behind a camera, I have almost 90,000 images. I accept about 1% as up to standard, and even those I don't show.
Years ago I was complaining about a photographers style to a co-worker (we’d just finished marketing headshots with the photographer). The co-worker said to me “it’s not cool to bash this other photographer, it shows a lack of class and says more about you than the photographer.” I took that single statement to heart. If I don’t like someone’s work I keep my mouth shut OR I find something about the image to compliment the photographer on. Thanks for the video and reminder to always be kind.
I think there are 2 types of criticism, and they both attempt to do the same thing. First you got the compliment-crtique method, which is what you mentioned. I start with all of the things I like, and then talk about the things I dont like and potential reasons why I do and dont like them. Which works well. Then you have tough love, where you just talk about the things you dont like about it. Both are good, but tough love is mostly for more advanced people and shouldn't be used on newer people. The mountain of knowledge becomes overwhelming when you force a landslide on their heads.
@ReadIcculus93 Tough love is not even love. It is a label people use to get away with abusing others and disrespecting people. They use it to make themselves feel better about the horrible way they are treating others. Anything referred to as "tough love" is just abuse. If you (ANY HUMAN) absolutely have to give someone "tough love" then the problem is you or your thoughts and not the individual. There's no justifiable reason to be terrible to someone and try and act like it's "love" when it's very much not. Tough love is an act of hate. And we all need to acknowledge this and stop trying to act like it's anything other than that because it's not.
@@thehuntressdanni2972 I see tough love as being constructive criticism these days. Old School tough love was a little more, being mean for the sake of being mean. I dont see constructive criticism as being mean. A lot of people who are new to a field, like photography, criticism isnt as important as building confidence. As people advance, it is almost required to be held to a higher standard, either by yourself, or others. That is when tough love is not just necessary, it is required to grow and become great at anything.
@@thehuntressdanni2972 If I send my photos into an award winning photographer and they tell me, "these are awful. Your shutter speed is too low, your ISO is too high, the whole thing is overexposed, and your composition is horrible, you would never get these published." If I was new, I might not ever pickup a camera again. If I'm submitting these photos to a competition and I want to be an award winning photographer, I expect to get this response if it is true.
@@ThePhotographicEye People in something artistic (like photography, music, oil painting) having a set way is a contradiction in terms. An engineer has to build a bridge that won't fall down, that is a must in bridge building, and that necessarily makes things narrower in scope. One has a narrow scope at work no matter what one does for a living, artistic photography is a break from all that, whether participating in the making of it or the viewing of it. To be narrow in one's approach to it takes away the very artistic nature of it and turns it into a form of accounting. Leave the accountancy to the CPAs and while they are at work. Only a photographer that does it for a living without a non-photographic day job can look at it this way (and I'm not saying ALL pro photographers have this narrow conception), totally forgetting about the artistic component to it, those of us who are not pro photographers use it as an artistic escape because our jobs are not particularly creative HATE to see an artistic pursuit reduced to a formula.
@@ThePhotographicEye Imagine if David Bowie or Mozart approached music this way, or any other number of musician types. It'd be technically correct but boring because there'd be no soul, creativity or style to it. When we hear a piece of music that really speaks to us as people it isn't because it is technically correct, but because there is an emotion to that rendition that really gets us. Music shouldn't be approached as if one was manufacturing a steel beam, as important as steel is to modern life, no one reacts to steel the way they do to art.
@@Caballeroshot but who said that you have yo satisfy the public? You can still develop your own style, and also learn or get inspired by the comments and ideas of people that have more experience
Just thought I'd tell you that I spent the whole of this video nodding in agreement with everything you said. I've found over the years, that these so called 'Gatekeepers' don't just criticise your photography, but they can also criticise your photography gear! For instance, years ago when I was just starting out, and all I had was a Bridge Camera, (which was in actual fact one of the best cameras I've ever owned) and someone had the audacity to tell me that because I wasn't using a DSLR, it was not a 'proper' camera! Shear snobbery, that's all it is!
On Pexels, I have seen great, heart-stopping photography work with cell phones and drones. The image comes from the eye of the photographer and other than understanding the best way to use it, the equipment is completely irrelevant. With all the great new gear, why aren't there 10,000 Ansel Adams clones running about making brilliant images that make people swoon?
A photography friend of mine Mike Browne has a saying. `Cameras don't take pictures people do' and the old saying `It's not what you have it's how you use it'. I don't think when you look at any image you can instantly tell what it was taken on especially these days with camera phones as well.
The latest fad is those with mirrorless cameras saying the DSLR I use is now outdated (14 years old & still works well) and you also need to be using umpteen apps on the latest phone to be a proper photographer.
That is of course one way of looking at it and I do agree that often if you are getting some pushback than at least you means you’re doing something that’s a little bit different from the normal
One of my friend told me some day that my photographs have a lack of inner movement. I said Ok. I've been thinking a lot about it. 2 months later, she came back with the same words. And I told her, my photographs will never contain any movement because my approach and my photography is about silence and immobility. I cant be another person. So yeah. You are right. She is a woman that moves all the time in vain, to exist.
One of the best part of photography is the artistic freedom. There are always ways to make a photo “technically” better and sometimes there is room for solicited critique, but at the end of the day if the photographer and/or THIER target audience react appropriately to the photo, it’s a great photo.
Definitely the artistic freedom I post my photographs to Facebook only for my friends which are very limited to about maybe three and my family members so they can see where I've been and some of my family members can't even get out so it brings them joy just to look at them brings me Joy that they get a chance to look at the beauty I get the chance to see granted my editing skills are lackluster but all in all not too shabby and the grand scheme of things
The best quote I found from a pro photographer went something like this: "If you told me that you liked my photo, I would say 'Thank you'. If you told me you didn't like my photography, that's fine too. I didn't take this photography for you. You weren't there when I took this photograph. I took this photograph for me." and I think that really sums up what people should keep in mind when they photograph. Unless of course your doing commercial photography, then the client has to like the photograph or you're not likely to be paid. But for everyone else, who is doing this for "fun" as a hobby, do it for that reason. Don't let these people get you down. This is also why I sort of shy away from negatively criticizing others photos too, because if they looked through my photo library I'm sure they could find ones that even I would be ashamed of or not exactly proud of, or ones that I've made a mistake (technical) so I'm not perfect either. But when I do have to critique a photo I try to keep it technical (analyze the technical aspects) and the composition aspect of it, but try to leave out the subject (my bias towards/against the subject matter, and the photographer).
I had a recent experience where I put 2 images I love in to a local camera club competition for the first time. They were rated as 9 and 10 out of 20 in B Grade. Yet these same 2 images were part of a portfolio that got me admitted to a Master of Arts degree in photography!! They were experimental images that were not the norm, and obviously hated by the judge, but loved by the lecturers at the college I attend!! I now no longer go to that photography club......to restrictive in what they judge as good.
Be careful though because it doesn’t mean they are wrong and the college is right or vice versa. This video isn’t about how you rated in a contest. It is about how gatekeepers crap on your work unsolicited
@@jamesg1974a I agree with you in general, but my experience at this camera club was that the judges were gatekeepers and marked down anything that was not “conventional” imagery. Gatekeepers occur everywhere, not just on the internet:-)
Well said! I think people who are “gatekeepers” are often people with little control over their own lives and want to do anything (good or bad) to control others / it makes them feel powerful.
After about 7 years, I realized that photographers are often toxic and in the end, my photos will be most appreciated by me. I left almost all of my photography groups because it wasn't helping me to improve. Photography is art. Art is subjective.
Awesome video,!!! When I was 16 and starting out my photographic journey I attended a photography club in Basildon Essex and submitted 2 photo's for review to encounter not a single word of encouragement in 5 minute review. This experience left me with a vivid memory and emotions which stopped me taking photographs for 6 months. Now 40 years I focus on my photography ignoring the opinions of all but a few people who are objective, experienced and innovative. Your opinions are spot on Alex. Thank you for making a yet another sensible video which encourage people.
@@netweters Being a hobby photographer doesn't mean you're not skilled or capable. It just means you're not driven by external pressures or extreme demands, but instead by your own enjoyment and personal rules. While professionals can definitely pursue their own creative vision, they often hold themselves to very high standards and may feel constrained by what they believe represents their best quality. This can limit their freedom to experiment or try things outside of what they perceive as top-tier work.
This happens a whole lot in the cinematography/filmmaking community too. I find the biggest criticisms often come from the people with the least amount of work put out too. The people who are the most afraid to take chances or experiment or try new things. The people who spend all their times trawling forums and debating specs and charts but never actually create anything of their own.
Just avoid forums. Invariably filled with pixel peeping bores that lack the creative wisdom to offer helpful advice. Best thing I ever did was avoid them. I'll add camera clubs too, but that's only due to personal experience.
On the one hand, I couldn't agree more 🙂 But I've learned a ton about the technical aspects of taking a super clean, sharp shot from forums. Admittedly, I get fed up with the negativity after a bit then need to take a break for a few months or a year 🙂 ...like right now 🙂
Thank you for saying what needs to be said loudly, clearly, and repeatedly, so that all photographers can hear the message. We all need help, support, compassion, and yes healthy constructive criticism. However, we don't need those who would just tear us down to make themselves feel superior.
Thank you for voicing this for all lovers of photography. Some people are just miserable and need to drag others into their misery. Grow! Be better than you were yesterday . This applies to everything in life just do your best and grow. Just be your unique beautiful self and no one else!
I love doing my photography ... I do it for myself , what i like and no one else. Thank you for this video ... all photographers should just ignore all the people out there that believe they are the only ones that have ever used a camera , and their way is the only way .. thanks for your channel .. keep doing what you do . ☑
That's why I never post my stuff on social media. I do have an account on Flickr with no photos, and that rubs some people wrong, but in fairness I only comment on photos of people who's work I do like and refrain from negative comments on photos I don't like.
Thanks for this Alex. I recently quit a M4/3rds group after a photo I posted was piled on by haters. It wasn’t so much the criticism of the actual photo, I have been around long enough to understand constructive criticism. However it was the vitriol toward the subject of the photo that got me. She was a lovely mum and business woman who didin’t deserve the hate thrown at her. It was a simple outdoor portrait yet it set off a firestorm. My biggest disappointment was the Admins of the group did nothing and allowed the madness to continue. I expected more from the group, however I was naive and decided to call it a day. Cheers mate, some words of wisdom here.
I love sunset shots. I used to get told i was underexposing. How else do i get the mountains black and deep orange sky glow? I used to do 50:50 water reflection shots. Also some would say thirds only. My shots come out well and i love them. I show others to follow passion, experiment, find their style. And enjoy. Love your channel ❤
You do reflection shots like me, 50/50. To me it seemed natural to place the horizon in the middle for such shots…with variations for the best of what your eye is seeing. There are always those that judge and belittle others, maybe they are jealous of your creativity and skill. Carry on sir, all the best 💪
@@user-tn1vc1xz5d hahaha, yes, I have the same problem at times, getting it to the right place at the right time, never easy. Nice little camera that Canon, I used to have a Nikon, sorry, lol. I tend to revisit the same places multiple times, different times, different weather etc, just so I may be lucky and get the shot I’m can see in my minds eye….not always successful though, but hey, we try huh. Keep snapping and all the best to you 🙂
they're called haters. they exist everywhere and are looking at your content all the time. jealousy and envy are their fuel, they will never be happy. just block and ignore. you do great work, keep going 🤝
@@ThePhotographicEye i hope many people see this video and are inspired to keep experimenting. i always tell people starting out to pick up a cam and shoot what they like. eventually they should learn technical knowledge such as: iso, aperture, and speed. learn the skills while breaking the rules. compositions will vary and that's the beauty of photography
I remember the disapproving criticism of an established architectural photographer, made some forty years ago, of Michael Kenna's early work. This photographer considered Kenna's images to be too grainy.
So, the internet is not the right place, camera clubs are also not the place to be. Well, then we'll do the Vivian-Maier approach and hope to be recognised after we have been long gone.
This is the positivity I needed in my day. I picked up cameras because of the enjoyment I got from taking pictures and trying out new things. I’m glad I started expanding my ideas to consider composition and learning about photography greats, but there comes a point where you can go too far down that rabbit hole and forget why you were doing photography in the first place.
Unfortunately I found this happened to me via a camera club. I eventually left as it was destroying my self confidence. Once I threw off all their rules I started to enjoy photography again.
I found the same as most of the clubs & their judges are all linked to the PAGB which like to dictate what you do in your spare time and I am no longer a member.
@@johnarmstrong5727 same here. I started art school (learned to look a different way) and they though the pictures I made where arogent and elitist, jsut because I stopped following the "rules" (I love to shoot with holga and old expired films). I left, becaus the pictures I made and what they thought I should make (right light en pin sharp) where 180 degrees oposite. They simply didn't understand it anymore.
I am just a hobbyist who will never get photographs like you Pro guys, and do I care? not a bit. That doesn’t mean I can’t learn anything from you guys far from it I just watch a video with hints and tips that I am interested in learning from and that is it. I am more than happy with my photography it may not be up to much but it’s the results I get make me happy. The thing that pisses me off are the idiots that say wish I learned this setting years ago or this camera changed my life nonsense. UA-cam is full of them and I avoid them like the plague at all costs. Listening to someone who has knowledge and experience is the best way to learn. So thank you for that Sir.
I read a line once that went something like "Toxic people that tells you you're no good have nothing to show them selves". I can't remember the exact quote but it was something like that and I've discovered that it's true in a majority of times. People who tries to put you down with toxic comments or whatever RARELY have the courage to post some of their own work or they repost others work. I try to let all the negative comments be like water on a goose and I always have a quote from a swedeish politican in the back of my head "Never argue with an idiot, sooner than later they'll bring you down to their level and win by experience." Thanks for this video!
If someone comments negatively on your work could you just reply with "Thank you for spending so much time looking at my photos, I'm glad you felt compelled to study it long enough to critique it!"
Everything you said strikes a chord with me. Years ago, I put together a small display of my favourite landscape images at the local boat club and someone commented that anyone with a phone could take these photos. Initially I was fairly hurt by this but it left me thinking about ways to develop my images in different ways and I then got into ICM and long exposure images which, at the time, couldn’t be done with a phone camera. So, ultimately the negative comment was helpful to me. Very recently I was looking for inspiration and went along to a couple of meetings of the local photo club only to discover that it was dominated by 2 or 3 individuals who were only too happy to give negative feedback to others and tell them how they would have done things better without offering any positive suggestions. I quickly decided that this wasn’t the club for me and haven’t been back. Your video confirms that I took the right steps on both occasions And, by the way, I enjoyed the song title headings throughout this video - very clever!
For a brightly illuminated landscape, a cellphone works remarkably well especially if the final image is going to be tiny. It is when you go BIG that it starts to matter, and by that, a large format camera will outperform a medium format camera which will outperform even a 45 megapixel 35mm full frame dslr. Rather a lot has to do with the density of photons per unit area (pixel) and that in turn creates subtle nuances of tone and color. The image will simply have more snap or "acuity" than smaller sensors.
Wonderful video... for years I tutored photography and I always lead with "There is no good photo, just one that you enjoy taking". This was something that set me apart. I was a camera club member for years, but left after feeling 'less than' because those critics became the noise you speak of. I stopped taking photos I wanted to because I DO not follow the rules. Thank you for making this video. I believe we can learn to improve, but with that knowledge we should NEVER stop finding the joy in exploring our own vision.
Hi Alex!! Screw the haters. Period. If they don't like it, I just tell them "So don't look at it." That's always been effective. They're certainly not going to affect my eating, sleeping, or life one way or another. Thank you for all you do, sincerely. Randy
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. A person taking a photograph is the beholder of that beauty. They saw something in the image that gave them a good feeling.
I've learned just 2 ignore these trolls. They're never content with anything. You hit on the nail when you mentioned experimentation. Photography 4 me is to enjoy the process. These trolls are miserable, and their goal is to make others feel the same way. Great video!
Alex, your videos have consistently inspired me to realize that while I am learning the rules, the rule breakers are the photographers that fill me with awe, especially when it comes to black and white. I start watching your videos with a sense of anticipation, always, because I know I will walk away fired up and excited to study and experiment. And by the way, all of your photography makes me gasp with wonder. You are sensitive and kind and it comes through in your work. You are so right to help us new photographers navigate the gatekeepers, especially having experienced the negativity yourself. Your words of encouragement mean so much. Thank you, Alex!
As a hobbyist, I make photographs first for my own pleasure. Being appreciated is certainly very nice, but not a must. That's why I simply ignore those "toxic criticisms". Actually this applies to any form of art (music, sculpture, etc etc). What's considered beauty by A may be seen as rubbish by B. Oh well :D
Thank you, Alex, for calling out this sort of toxic behavior and providing some useful suggestions for how to deal with the inevitable gatekeeping and otherwise negative feedback any creative person will encounter when they share their work.
There will always be people that don’t like your work for various reasons. Sometimes it feels personal and others it’s just someone’s opinion. I always remind myself that there are people that don’t like Van Gough’s The Starry Night, shrug at the Sistine Chapel, and don’t like any music by the Beatles. And that is okay. It’s their opinion. Not mine. So why should I expect everyone to like my work if I don’t even like all of it? One of the greatest challenges in photography and pretty much all art mediums is finding the right person/people to critique your work. I personally never thought my work was very good, despite winning several contests and being published until my brother told me he thought it was good. He never would say something nice to make me feel better. But he would never rip apart my work to make me feel better about it either. My enjoyment and passion wasn’t dependent on his opinion, but it is important to find the right people that you trust to talk to you about your work that are worth listening to.
Truth. I know that I have seen many "works" of art that just don't do anything for me. I appreciate how good they are and what they represent, but they just never excited me. On the other hand, as I suspect everyone else has, I have seen some artwork that would make a critic cringe that I thought was very interesting because the artist did something that was interesting to me. Art is subjective at the very core of its existence, what makes one person (or many) excited about looking at it, just doesn't do anything for others.
You photograph the kind of architecture I tend to ignore and overlook, but you bring focus to the patterns and textures as well as contrast that make me really enjoy your photos. I've even seen buildings I've been in before that you have photographed. I look for beauty in totally different things, so your photos are great for me, because they draw my attention to the things I would otherwise miss while looking at things with my own particular photographic eye.
I've only been into photography 50 years (honestly!) and never had the urge to go beyond taking pictures that I liked. I chuckle fondly at the youngsters just discovering film photography... I was also in a photo club 50 years ago, when I was very green, realised that I wasn't cut out for what others considered right, so went my own way. Now I really want to troll the trolls on Social Media... 🤣
This freaks out a lot of people. The very idea that someone might take a picture because it's significant to them alone and not because they are trying to build a portfolio of saleable images to show off. There was a time I made a living with a camera. I still can take very good documentary photos in covering weddings and events. I don't have a business Facebook page, I don't keep a business web site. What people do see is family snapshots and travel photos on my personal page. Because I don't maintain a body of "professional" work online that is easily accessible, any comments I might make are automatically dismissed.
Thank you for this! I am perpetually irked by these people, but also recognized their influence on my work as you spoke (& I’m only halfway through). Feeling grateful & inspired. 🥂
Good valid points. Add the ‘photographers’ who only do it as a hobby deriding those who do it for a business & decide for business reasons there’s no need to upgrade to every single camera release. I stopped engaging in comments on photography channels on UA-cam many years ago because of the toxicity.
There are tons of people who believe they lift themselves up by tearing others down. It's the only way they can feel good about themselves. Those people are not just common to Photography but they are present in every walk of life.
Great video. Photography is an artform, so subjective by definition. I like some photos, others I don't but I keep my opinions to myself unless invited (and then if I think the feedback will be constructive), as I have listened to 'experts' in other fields and it stopped me being creative. Now I would hopefully say 'stuff 'em'.
Thank you for bringing this topic up. I find in my circumstances it is more related to people being jealous. I just ignore and continue doing what I most enjoy in photography. Keep clicking and enjoy it!
These people are found in every hobby, my second hobby is Hifi and music. I have a great system but it is not in a dedicated listening room, how many hate responses I have got because of that.🤦🏼 But what they think or say is of no importance at all, they won't tell me how I have to enjoy my hobby's. And in photography things like the rule of thirds is not a rule at all, it is a guideline.
I can relate! I have three major hobbies: music making, amateur radio and photography, and I interact with likeminded people on social media. Most interactions with any of the groups are respectful and encouraging. However, the most contentious, insulting and discouraging comments happen only inside the photography groups.
Amen brother. I thought it was just me, with my tiny 10k channel and 40 years a pro who was constantly being bitten by the photography gatekeepers (that’s a great title for em btw). Big kudos to you for calling them out, and letting fellow snappers know they are not alone. The great photographer Bill Brandt summed it up perfectly when he said “photography is not a sport, there are no rules”. Great work putting this one out there , you’ve made my day 👏👏
Wise words indeed. I think this applies to just about anything you care to image, there will be the insecure, negative, the trolls. So many of the greats in the arts have been controversial, there's no shame in ruffling some feathers!
It’s art. Be thick-skinned when hearing criticism (unless it’s invited and coming from a knowledgeable source) and very suspicious of rules. Thanks for another inspiring video. 🙏
Yep - last year I tried to get local "professionals" to get a regular photo challenge private group together. Nobody wanted to be critiqued or seen as "learning" new things, so they weren't interested. It was telling how fixed they were in their ways, and how loathe they were to break out of their comfort zones and the formula that they've used for years. I ended up joining a group for a city a few hours away and couldn't be happier.
I would just like to add that I am certainly not the only one who looks at your work and appreciates your creativity, your style and the art, they are clearly your vision and I find it inspiring and I enjoy looking at these photographs. I can see that even in those who don't appeal to me as much. Anyone who cannot enjoy the success and development of others is poor in many qualities.
I really enjoyed watching this video, Alex. I’m 62 and took up photography during Covid. I do it purely because I enjoy it. I continually experiment with different genres, and feel like a kid again when I produce something I like. I get out in the fresh air, see wonderful aspects of nature, and produce photos with that truly magical contraption called a camera. There will always be those who try to tear someone down. It’s usually because they’re not happy within themselves. I’m old enough not to care. 😂 It’s unfortunate that they can put someone younger off their hobby/passion because ‘they’ are not happy. Ignore the haters, folks.
Thank you for this. Negativity can really hinder and even spoil creativity. Over the years I have learned not to pay much attention to the negative souls since I don't shoot for them, I make my art for me.
Well put. I was once hounded by a so called “Gatekeeper” who would even try to put my clients off. Only problem for him, my clients loved my photos, and only their opinion and my own critique of the photos (and I’m very critical of my own) matter. 😁
People who judge others by their standards are the worst. When you want to share your photos and share your techniques, someone comes along who, not only tells you ‘you are doing it all wrong’ but they insult you and use negative language towards you. I made the mistake once of answering one of those comments questioning their abusive language and they just doubled down and ranted how they can do what they like, blah, blah, blah. I try to ignore those people. If they want to be abusive it says more about them than anything else.
You're right on. Online forums has made this noise worse and it often get personal. It's amazing what people will say online when they know you can't punch them in the nose.
It's not just in photography, but all over. In the classic motorcycle world there are "rivet counters"; men who will tell you that your nicely (and expensively) restored motorcycle is not quite as it left the factory, and they'll tell you why, in detail. But there's a subset of these types, who upon seeing the new BSA 650cc Gold Star parked up have to tell the proud owner why it isn't a "real BSA" and that they would never buy one. I think it's because the BSA name has been bought by an overseas company and they feel their World is broken.
I was going to comment along the same lines of experiencing these "kind" folk outside photography. Someone always had something destructive to say but when pressed offer no real solutions. That's why I don't bowl and I don't do softball. 🤣 There's always "professionals" who impede on a good time. 😂
Alex, I just wanted to say "thank you" for your channel! I've learned so much, and your strategies, thought processes, and your street photography samples you present here have started effecting me as I'm lining up my own shots! You do a great service to society, and society owes you a cup of tea. :) We need to always consider the source, as there is a lot of cultural harassment going on all over the internet, as it's a free and easy platform for them to attack. By them, I mean people at all of the extremes; of politics, religion, traditional vs. progressive values, economics, etc. Just being here can make us a target to someone. I just wish we wouldn't have to deal with this, but it is what it is at this point. Best wishes to you and thank you again for all you do.
Great video Alex... " not enough details in the shadows" is a favourite with Camera Club judges when it comes to my B&W images.. More often than not if i look at these judges websites i find they havent posted anything since 2010.! .
Peter Elgar (on UA-cam) a retired regional press photographer, showed on of his photographs of a church in Europe he entered into his local camera club. Was told the picture would have looked better photo stacked. Peter replied: 'That's hard to do with film'.🤣
"Really," you should reply, "have you seen Ansel Adams' work? He seemed to do ok!" Sometimes you want some shadows to disappear into mystery. This tendency to make every image look like HDR, with a virtual obsession to have detail in every millimeter does not appeal to me.
These malcontented, toxic web creepers are all over the place, putting people down every chance they get, just miserable humans. Thank you for saying this nice and loud so people can hear it. A newcomer should be encouraged and if they ask for constructive criticism, do it with grace and empathy. The adage of an old hippie rings true: treat others as you would like to be treated.
Joined a photography club and all they asked me was what camera did I use. When I said Canon, one older man mentioned that it was a good starter camera. Such harsh criticism and ridicule for some images that were quite good. I didn't dare submit at first but later did. During Covid and afterwards, we had such great photographers speak via Zoom and they all asked the same question "what camera do you use? The best answer was "the older the better!" I left the club and wish I could find a group that I could learn from. I listen to your videos and really enjoy them. I don't understand the nasty comments. What do they gain from that toxic energy? Keep up your great work. Thank you
This hit the spot. I was in a FB group where I knew I was not good enough for their magazine. But members took joy in telling me this unsolicited. It drove me out as life is just too short to fight that kind of community.
I love to follow your channel because it introduces me to photographers and their work that I have never known before, but there are topics, such as this, that need to be discussed. I make it a habit never to disparage another photographer’s work, no matter their experience level. We all belong to the world wide group known as the Photography Club.
About 15 years ago I took a picture that I loved. A lot. I captured a diesel locomotive on a side track rumbling over dusty rails, while a pedestrian walked nearby, Golden hour lighting. I was proud of it because the industrial gritty feel of the area where I captured it in Seattle. No on else liked it. It got rejected multiple times on a railfan website, and collected multiple negative critiques. I shared it a couple times since then, and still the lukewarm responses continued. To this day I still love the photo, maybe because I remember the moment or I love where I live. I still have that inner voice - that ultimate critic - who makes me question the shots I take. I'm learning to shut out that voice and capture what I love. Thanks for sharing this, and giving words to a feeling and experience that all of use have lived!
Like how you titled each chapter with a title or line from 80s music 😊I've listened to music on many different media platforms over my life and I've also dabbled in photography in different platforms and the one thing that it all has in common is that I did it because it makes me feel good 😊
I am so glad I came across this video. I have been enjoying photography from an amateur standpoint for all of my considerable life, and I don't consider myself particularly creative. With no eye for colour (I suffer from the hindrance of many males with difficulty distinguishing red from green), I just take photos which please me, with thoughts for those photos I have admired taken by others, applying the technical experience, such as it is, of my years. That is all you need. Thanks for pointing out what I already knew in my heart. Go out and have fun!
When I was 17 (1970'S) with my new Nikon FE I went to my local camera club to help me progress in my chosen hobby and was treated like two week old roadkill. I vowed never to go near such a place again. I shot for a while with a good friend and we inspired each other. Sadly his interest waned before mine and I became a holiday only photographer. In 2007 a chance meeting found another source of inspiration and I became a motorsport photographer but business pressures outside of photography meant that this time it was my interest that waned after 7 or 8 very good years. I picked up my cameras again in 2022 to do a wedding for my sister in law and this inspired me to trade up two tired D3's to the new world of mirrorless. I discovered that someone that I have known for over ten years was also a photographer and a good one at that and now we inspire each other. I totally agree shoot what makes you happy, don't critique the work of others in public as it makes you look either foolish or an ass. Save the critic in you for your inner voice to inspire you to create and grow not diminish others. Seek the company of like minded individuals not those who are influenced by a pack mentality.
Wow! 100% agreed! I had a similar rant about the PSSA (from from your accent, i suspect you don't need me to elaborate on the abbreviation) 10 years ago. They would indoctrinate their members using very regimented judging criteria. Their members would move up through the ranks, by conforming to these strict requirements with their own photographic submissions and ultimately become judges themselves and perpetuate the regime. That aside, well said! That is a very healthy attitude towards destructive criticism.
I just picked up photography again more seriously after years of just making snapshots with my phone. What you’re saying really helps me to do just what I like. I really like your photos as well!
I quit the whole photography club because it was dominated by negativity. I find your stuff super inspiring. I was told my work had no subject without a human in it. I was told my work had no value if it didn't tell a story. Nobody there understood the artful eye of photography. Just the image as human framed object for human consumption. A fantasy or a memory shared. Yet it can be more like a painting, the subject about it's lines and shapes or the movement thereof, rather than some anthropocentric function. I left feeling frustrated and disappointed rather than shamed. I also felt I did not get the learning and maturing I sought in such staid atmosphere. Honestly, this video has just hit the on switch for the first time in years and its not herons I want to photograph now! Moar pylons and trusses!!!
I could have responded to your video with a huge tract of text but in the end it all comes down to this: I agree with you 100% and you have put your thoughts across really well.
”If you can’t grow by yourself, cut someone else’s legs”, is a Swedish quote that I have kept in my mind for 30 years. I’m so fed up with people that have to spread their negativity around! Their selfishness is suffocating. Unfortunately these gatekeepers are the reason I don’t join photo groups, I rather learn from UA-camrs that show photos they are proud of even if the photos are 30 years old. I call that perspective and insight into what it means to grow, and I’m grateful that someone takes their time and knowledge to make videos teaching photography. So, thank you Alex!
My comment on your images --- Wow! You are framing the images to show action, often cutting off part of a subject to throw us into the middle of that action. It's a great technique. I tend to do the opposite: "I have to fit everything into the frame." This gives me ideas for, well, breaking that frame.
The biggest mindset change anyone can have when it comes to toxic and hateful online comments is to approach it with empathy. Feel sorry for these people. You have to be in a very sad and depressed state that you choose to go online (when you could choose to do anything else) and try to bring others down by leaving nasty remarks. Their comments are a reflection of how they must be feeling inside. Feel sorry for these people for 5-10 seconds and realise they must be in a really dark place... then move on with your life.
Absolutely agree with everything you have said. I am an elderly enthusiast shooting entirely for my own enjoyment and apart from very useful post processing instruction on UA-cam for example I have now studiously avoided' Clubs' and' Rules ( especially Rules ) and' How to' and competitions and Instagram - and feel quite liberated as a result. Looking at pictures of past photographers has been the most useful learning lesson for me and the most important factor that matters to me is the 'emotional' connection I might have with a shot
When I was a working, successful photographer, I only cared that two people liked my photos - Me and my client. Now, that I am retired, I have lowered that number to one.
Absolutely
Perfect!
Bravo.
So right !!!
That's also my chief aim 😀
Quitting the camera club was the best thing for my photography. " This years dragonflies look so much better than last years"!
Strange comment. I get a lot out of my Camera club and if I did not I would look for another Club. Cheers.
@@baobo67 There are always being poseurs into Camera/photo clubs, who are thinking, they're the best, and with a silly, toxic, entitled attitude.
Interesting. I gave up going to camera clubs decades ago when I realized I didn't need to be judged so long as I was happy learning from my mistakes and educating myself
Years ago I worked as a photographer for a local newspaper. I was asked to be a judge at a local camera club competition. I found the vast majority of the photos to be nearly clones of each other. It seemed to me that the club had a certain idea of how photos should look and everyone followed what they considered the norm. There was very little creativity. I also noticed that the same three people had won every competition in the past; they were the senior officers of the club. I picked what I felt were the most creative of the photos and they did not include the three officers work. I was never asked to be judge again.
Me too.. after a few years as a Press Photographer on a Regional Evening paper ( change of career but still was a passionate "hobbyist" When I retired I decided to joying the local camera club..... After 2 months of trying my damn best to "integrate" and show interest, to see the same people win every club comp. The rest seemed to simply treat the club as a social club, a place to meet to chat and not take part in any photography related way. There were little cliques huddled in groups that made no effort to welcome and encourage new members...... I left after that 3 months, my suspicions proven....
I've been a member of photo clubs for quite sometime now, at least 20 years or more, and have always found them to be places where I have improved and learnt new technics. I don't always appreciate the style of other people's photos, but I can still learn something from them. I guess I've been lucky with the different clubs I've joined, where friendship, encouragement and constructive criticism are values that rank highly, and it's not about simply obeying photo technics and rules!
I was a complete newcomer to photography when I joined up with our local photography group - I didn't even know how to copy photos onto an usb stick [ got laughed at for that ] - everyone was on a different level with myself at the bottom - the same 3 people would win Photo of the Week so I decided my time would be better spent at home or outside with my camera .
That was 10 years ago , I'm still not that confident of showing my photos on photography forums so I post them on my FB page for friends to critique [ and yes I realise that's the wrong way to go about things too ] .
@peterwilliams6114 no it isn't Peter. Take pictures for yourself first. Over 40 years behind a camera, I have almost 90,000 images. I accept about 1% as up to standard, and even those I don't show.
Years ago I was complaining about a photographers style to a co-worker (we’d just finished marketing headshots with the photographer). The co-worker said to me “it’s not cool to bash this other photographer, it shows a lack of class and says more about you than the photographer.” I took that single statement to heart. If I don’t like someone’s work I keep my mouth shut OR I find something about the image to compliment the photographer on. Thanks for the video and reminder to always be kind.
I think there are 2 types of criticism, and they both attempt to do the same thing. First you got the compliment-crtique method, which is what you mentioned. I start with all of the things I like, and then talk about the things I dont like and potential reasons why I do and dont like them. Which works well. Then you have tough love, where you just talk about the things you dont like about it.
Both are good, but tough love is mostly for more advanced people and shouldn't be used on newer people. The mountain of knowledge becomes overwhelming when you force a landslide on their heads.
@ReadIcculus93 Tough love is not even love. It is a label people use to get away with abusing others and disrespecting people. They use it to make themselves feel better about the horrible way they are treating others.
Anything referred to as "tough love" is just abuse. If you (ANY HUMAN) absolutely have to give someone "tough love" then the problem is you or your thoughts and not the individual. There's no justifiable reason to be terrible to someone and try and act like it's "love" when it's very much not.
Tough love is an act of hate.
And we all need to acknowledge this and stop trying to act like it's anything other than that because it's not.
@@thehuntressdanni2972 I see tough love as being constructive criticism these days. Old School tough love was a little more, being mean for the sake of being mean. I dont see constructive criticism as being mean.
A lot of people who are new to a field, like photography, criticism isnt as important as building confidence. As people advance, it is almost required to be held to a higher standard, either by yourself, or others. That is when tough love is not just necessary, it is required to grow and become great at anything.
@@thehuntressdanni2972 If I send my photos into an award winning photographer and they tell me, "these are awful. Your shutter speed is too low, your ISO is too high, the whole thing is overexposed, and your composition is horrible, you would never get these published."
If I was new, I might not ever pickup a camera again. If I'm submitting these photos to a competition and I want to be an award winning photographer, I expect to get this response if it is true.
@@thehuntressdanni2972 I wouldn't say *anything* labeled as tough love is abuse but a lot is.
Life is easier if you choose to ignore all the assholes you occasionally come in contact with.
It does get a lot better, you're right
Right mac. Don,t let that .01% spoil you day and love Karma. Cheers
it may well be easier but only having people blow smoke up your ass all the time might not be a fair reflection either.
@@ThePhotographicEye People in something artistic (like photography, music, oil painting) having a set way is a contradiction in terms. An engineer has to build a bridge that won't fall down, that is a must in bridge building, and that necessarily makes things narrower in scope. One has a narrow scope at work no matter what one does for a living, artistic photography is a break from all that, whether participating in the making of it or the viewing of it. To be narrow in one's approach to it takes away the very artistic nature of it and turns it into a form of accounting. Leave the accountancy to the CPAs and while they are at work.
Only a photographer that does it for a living without a non-photographic day job can look at it this way (and I'm not saying ALL pro photographers have this narrow conception), totally forgetting about the artistic component to it, those of us who are not pro photographers use it as an artistic escape because our jobs are not particularly creative HATE to see an artistic pursuit reduced to a formula.
@@ThePhotographicEye Imagine if David Bowie or Mozart approached music this way, or any other number of musician types. It'd be technically correct but boring because there'd be no soul, creativity or style to it. When we hear a piece of music that really speaks to us as people it isn't because it is technically correct, but because there is an emotion to that rendition that really gets us. Music shouldn't be approached as if one was manufacturing a steel beam, as important as steel is to modern life, no one reacts to steel the way they do to art.
The biggest mistake people make in photography or any art form is caring about the opinion of strangers.
@@Caballeroshot you are right but you can learn from the input of others.
@@theaudiofool5475 Critique is beneficial, making art to satisfy the public however makes it commercial which stops making it art IMO.
@@Caballeroshot but who said that you have yo satisfy the public? You can still develop your own style, and also learn or get inspired by the comments and ideas of people that have more experience
@@theaudiofool5475 Yes that is what "critique" means and I considered that valuable.
Evey criticism isn’t necessarily “toxic”. Sometimes it’s just someone’s opinion.😀
Just thought I'd tell you that I spent the whole of this video nodding in agreement with everything you said. I've found over the years, that these so called 'Gatekeepers' don't just criticise your photography, but they can also criticise your photography gear! For instance, years ago when I was just starting out, and all I had was a Bridge Camera, (which was in actual fact one of the best cameras I've ever owned) and someone had the audacity to tell me that because I wasn't using a DSLR, it was not a 'proper' camera! Shear snobbery, that's all it is!
Great advice! Why I quit my camera club … getting feedback from people stuck in a rut … a dull one.
Great advice! Why I quit my camera club … getting feedback from people stuck in a rut … a dull one.
On Pexels, I have seen great, heart-stopping photography work with cell phones and drones. The image comes from the eye of the photographer and other than understanding the best way to use it, the equipment is completely irrelevant. With all the great new gear, why aren't there 10,000 Ansel Adams clones running about making brilliant images that make people swoon?
A photography friend of mine Mike Browne has a saying. `Cameras don't take pictures people do' and the old saying `It's not what you have it's how you use it'. I don't think when you look at any image you can instantly tell what it was taken on especially these days with camera phones as well.
The latest fad is those with mirrorless cameras saying the DSLR I use is now outdated (14 years old & still works well) and you also need to be using umpteen apps on the latest phone to be a proper photographer.
Make photos that make you happy!
totally
When the toxic voices arise, you can be sure that you are on the right path. Thanks for your great work.
That is of course one way of looking at it and I do agree that often if you are getting some pushback than at least you means you’re doing something that’s a little bit different from the normal
I began enjoying photography again when I started tuning out the "experts." Thank you for this channel!
One of my friend told me some day that my photographs have a lack of inner movement. I said Ok. I've been thinking a lot about it. 2 months later, she came back with the same words. And I told her, my photographs will never contain any movement because my approach and my photography is about silence and immobility. I cant be another person. So yeah. You are right. She is a woman that moves all the time in vain, to exist.
Sounds like you are successfully executing your technique if even a vapid imbecile can get the point.
One of the best part of photography is the artistic freedom.
There are always ways to make a photo “technically” better and sometimes there is room for solicited critique, but at the end of the day if the photographer and/or THIER target audience react appropriately to the photo, it’s a great photo.
True, true
Loved the photos you showed.
Definitely the artistic freedom
I post my photographs to Facebook only for my friends which are very limited to about maybe three and my family members so they can see where I've been and some of my family members can't even get out so it brings them joy just to look at them brings me Joy that they get a chance to look at the beauty I get the chance to see granted my editing skills are lackluster but all in all not too shabby and the grand scheme of things
The best quote I found from a pro photographer went something like this: "If you told me that you liked my photo, I would say 'Thank you'. If you told me you didn't like my photography, that's fine too. I didn't take this photography for you. You weren't there when I took this photograph. I took this photograph for me." and I think that really sums up what people should keep in mind when they photograph. Unless of course your doing commercial photography, then the client has to like the photograph or you're not likely to be paid. But for everyone else, who is doing this for "fun" as a hobby, do it for that reason. Don't let these people get you down. This is also why I sort of shy away from negatively criticizing others photos too, because if they looked through my photo library I'm sure they could find ones that even I would be ashamed of or not exactly proud of, or ones that I've made a mistake (technical) so I'm not perfect either. But when I do have to critique a photo I try to keep it technical (analyze the technical aspects) and the composition aspect of it, but try to leave out the subject (my bias towards/against the subject matter, and the photographer).
I say no one cares about your photography but that does not mean you should not care about the work you do.
I had a recent experience where I put 2 images I love in to a local camera club competition for the first time. They were rated as 9 and 10 out of 20 in B Grade. Yet these same 2 images were part of a portfolio that got me admitted to a Master of Arts degree in photography!! They were experimental images that were not the norm, and obviously hated by the judge, but loved by the lecturers at the college I attend!! I now no longer go to that photography club......to restrictive in what they judge as good.
Camera Clubs not the place to go to be different thats for sure.
This is why I have avoided clubs. I do wish I had a friend or three that would enjoy getting out with a camera every now and then just for fun
Be careful though because it doesn’t mean they are wrong and the college is right or vice versa. This video isn’t about how you rated in a contest. It is about how gatekeepers crap on your work unsolicited
@@jamesg1974a I agree with you in general, but my experience at this camera club was that the judges were gatekeepers and marked down anything that was not “conventional” imagery. Gatekeepers occur everywhere, not just on the internet:-)
@@garymckenzie9307 understood. That definitely can and does happen.
Well said! I think people who are “gatekeepers” are often people with little control over their own lives and want to do anything (good or bad) to control others / it makes them feel powerful.
After about 7 years, I realized that photographers are often toxic and in the end, my photos will be most appreciated by me. I left almost all of my photography groups because it wasn't helping me to improve. Photography is art. Art is subjective.
Awesome video,!!! When I was 16 and starting out my photographic journey I attended a photography club in Basildon Essex and submitted 2 photo's for review to encounter not a single word of encouragement in 5 minute review. This experience left me with a vivid memory and emotions which stopped me taking photographs for 6 months. Now 40 years I focus on my photography ignoring the opinions of all but a few people who are objective, experienced and innovative. Your opinions are spot on Alex. Thank you for making a yet another sensible video which encourage people.
This is why I call myself a hobby photographer because when it’s a hobby you can do what you want because i do it for me not for them.
As a professional photographer you can still do what you want. You will get clients that hire you because of what you do.
@@netweters Being a hobby photographer doesn't mean you're not skilled or capable. It just means you're not driven by external pressures or extreme demands, but instead by your own enjoyment and personal rules. While professionals can definitely pursue their own creative vision, they often hold themselves to very high standards and may feel constrained by what they believe represents their best quality. This can limit their freedom to experiment or try things outside of what they perceive as top-tier work.
This happens a whole lot in the cinematography/filmmaking community too. I find the biggest criticisms often come from the people with the least amount of work put out too. The people who are the most afraid to take chances or experiment or try new things. The people who spend all their times trawling forums and debating specs and charts but never actually create anything of their own.
Stay positive and ignore the HATERS... They are very unhappy people who have nothing in their lives but hate.
Just avoid forums. Invariably filled with pixel peeping bores that lack the creative wisdom to offer helpful advice. Best thing I ever did was avoid them. I'll add camera clubs too, but that's only due to personal experience.
On the one hand, I couldn't agree more 🙂 But I've learned a ton about the technical aspects of taking a super clean, sharp shot from forums. Admittedly, I get fed up with the negativity after a bit then need to take a break for a few months or a year 🙂 ...like right now 🙂
Thank you for saying what needs to be said loudly, clearly, and repeatedly, so that all photographers can hear the message. We all need help, support, compassion, and yes healthy constructive criticism. However, we don't need those who would just tear us down to make themselves feel superior.
This channel is literally the best photography channel. Make less time for trolls- you're content is the most thoughtful.
Thank you for voicing this for all lovers of photography. Some people are just miserable and need to drag others into their misery. Grow! Be better than you were yesterday . This applies to everything in life just do your best and grow. Just be your unique beautiful self and no one else!
I love doing my photography ... I do it for myself , what i like and no one else. Thank you for this video ... all photographers should just ignore all the people out there that believe they are the only ones that have ever used a camera , and their way is the only way .. thanks for your channel .. keep doing what you do . ☑
That's why I never post my stuff on social media. I do have an account on Flickr with no photos, and that rubs some people wrong, but in fairness I only comment on photos of people who's work I do like and refrain from negative comments on photos I don't like.
Thanks for this Alex. I recently quit a M4/3rds group after a photo I posted was piled on by haters. It wasn’t so much the criticism of the actual photo, I have been around long enough to understand constructive criticism. However it was the vitriol toward the subject of the photo that got me. She was a lovely mum and business woman who didin’t deserve the hate thrown at her. It was a simple outdoor portrait yet it set off a firestorm. My biggest disappointment was the Admins of the group did nothing and allowed the madness to continue. I expected more from the group, however I was naive and decided to call it a day. Cheers mate, some words of wisdom here.
I love sunset shots. I used to get told i was underexposing. How else do i get the mountains black and deep orange sky glow? I used to do 50:50 water reflection shots. Also some would say thirds only. My shots come out well and i love them. I show others to follow passion, experiment, find their style. And enjoy.
Love your channel ❤
You do reflection shots like me, 50/50. To me it seemed natural to place the horizon in the middle for such shots…with variations for the best of what your eye is seeing. There are always those that judge and belittle others, maybe they are jealous of your creativity and skill. Carry on sir, all the best 💪
Thanks very much 😊😊. I use a trusty Canon 650D. It's all I need, the hard bit is getting it into the right place at the right time 😂😂😂
@@user-tn1vc1xz5d hahaha, yes, I have the same problem at times, getting it to the right place at the right time, never easy. Nice little camera that Canon, I used to have a Nikon, sorry, lol. I tend to revisit the same places multiple times, different times, different weather etc, just so I may be lucky and get the shot I’m can see in my minds eye….not always successful though, but hey, we try huh. Keep snapping and all the best to you 🙂
they're called haters. they exist everywhere and are looking at your content all the time. jealousy and envy are their fuel, they will never be happy. just block and ignore. you do great work, keep going 🤝
Yeah, these days I just delete the comments, but wanted to share the experience with people who might give up on photography if it happens to them
@@ThePhotographicEye i hope many people see this video and are inspired to keep experimenting. i always tell people starting out to pick up a cam and shoot what they like. eventually they should learn technical knowledge such as: iso, aperture, and speed. learn the skills while breaking the rules. compositions will vary and that's the beauty of photography
I remember the disapproving criticism of an established architectural photographer, made some forty years ago, of Michael Kenna's early work. This photographer considered Kenna's images to be too grainy.
So, the internet is not the right place, camera clubs are also not the place to be. Well, then we'll do the Vivian-Maier approach and hope to be recognised after we have been long gone.
This is the positivity I needed in my day. I picked up cameras because of the enjoyment I got from taking pictures and trying out new things. I’m glad I started expanding my ideas to consider composition and learning about photography greats, but there comes a point where you can go too far down that rabbit hole and forget why you were doing photography in the first place.
Unfortunately I found this happened to me via a camera club. I eventually left as it was destroying my self confidence. Once I threw off all their rules I started to enjoy photography again.
I found the same as most of the clubs & their judges are all linked to the PAGB which like to dictate what you do in your spare time and I am no longer a member.
@@johnarmstrong5727 same here. I started art school (learned to look a different way) and they though the pictures I made where arogent and elitist, jsut because I stopped following the "rules" (I love to shoot with holga and old expired films).
I left, becaus the pictures I made and what they thought I should make (right light en pin sharp) where 180 degrees oposite. They simply didn't understand it anymore.
I am just a hobbyist who will never get photographs like you Pro guys, and do I care? not a bit. That doesn’t mean I can’t learn anything from you guys far from it I just watch a video with hints and tips that I am interested in learning from and that is it. I am more than happy with my photography it may not be up to much but it’s the results I get make me happy. The thing that pisses me off are the idiots that say wish I learned this setting years ago or this camera changed my life nonsense. UA-cam is full of them and I avoid them like the plague at all costs. Listening to someone who has knowledge and experience is the best way to learn. So thank you for that Sir.
I always say "It's my picture, I took it, It's my perspective". That's the beauty of creating art. It's your vision on something.
I read a line once that went something like "Toxic people that tells you you're no good have nothing to show them selves". I can't remember the exact quote but it was something like that and I've discovered that it's true in a majority of times. People who tries to put you down with toxic comments or whatever RARELY have the courage to post some of their own work or they repost others work. I try to let all the negative comments be like water on a goose and I always have a quote from a swedeish politican in the back of my head "Never argue with an idiot, sooner than later they'll bring you down to their level and win by experience." Thanks for this video!
Thank you for watching. I’m glad it resonated with you and indeed are quite right about arguing with an idiot.
If someone comments negatively on your work could you just reply with "Thank you for spending so much time looking at my photos, I'm glad you felt compelled to study it long enough to critique it!"
Everything you said strikes a chord with me.
Years ago, I put together a small display of my favourite landscape images at the local boat club and someone commented that anyone with a phone could take these photos. Initially I was fairly hurt by this but it left me thinking about ways to develop my images in different ways and I then got into ICM and long exposure images which, at the time, couldn’t be done with a phone camera. So, ultimately the negative comment was helpful to me.
Very recently I was looking for inspiration and went along to a couple of meetings of the local photo club only to discover that it was dominated by 2 or 3 individuals who were only too happy to give negative feedback to others and tell them how they would have done things better without offering any positive suggestions. I quickly decided that this wasn’t the club for me and haven’t been back.
Your video confirms that I took the right steps on both occasions
And, by the way, I enjoyed the song title headings throughout this video - very clever!
For a brightly illuminated landscape, a cellphone works remarkably well especially if the final image is going to be tiny. It is when you go BIG that it starts to matter, and by that, a large format camera will outperform a medium format camera which will outperform even a 45 megapixel 35mm full frame dslr. Rather a lot has to do with the density of photons per unit area (pixel) and that in turn creates subtle nuances of tone and color. The image will simply have more snap or "acuity" than smaller sensors.
Wonderful video... for years I tutored photography and I always lead with "There is no good photo, just one that you enjoy taking". This was something that set me apart. I was a camera club member for years, but left after feeling 'less than' because those critics became the noise you speak of. I stopped taking photos I wanted to because I DO not follow the rules. Thank you for making this video. I believe we can learn to improve, but with that knowledge we should NEVER stop finding the joy in exploring our own vision.
Keep wearing that badge of honor, I support every word in this video.
Hi Alex!!
Screw the haters. Period. If they don't like it, I just tell them "So don't look at it." That's always been effective. They're certainly not going to affect my eating, sleeping, or life one way or another.
Thank you for all you do, sincerely.
Randy
Hi Randy
Thanks ever so much for your comment taking the time to watch the video appreciate your support
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. A person taking a photograph is the beholder of that beauty. They saw something in the image that gave them a good feeling.
I've learned just 2 ignore these trolls. They're never content with anything. You hit on the nail when you mentioned experimentation. Photography 4 me is to enjoy the process. These trolls are miserable, and their goal is to make others feel the same way. Great video!
Alex, your videos have consistently inspired me to realize that while I am learning the rules, the rule breakers are the photographers that fill me with awe, especially when it comes to black and white. I start watching your videos with a sense of anticipation, always, because I know I will walk away fired up and excited to study and experiment. And by the way, all of your photography makes me gasp with wonder. You are sensitive and kind and it comes through in your work. You are so right to help us new photographers navigate the gatekeepers, especially having experienced the negativity yourself. Your words of encouragement mean so much. Thank you, Alex!
As a hobbyist, I make photographs first for my own pleasure. Being appreciated is certainly very nice, but not a must. That's why I simply ignore those "toxic criticisms". Actually this applies to any form of art (music, sculpture, etc etc). What's considered beauty by A may be seen as rubbish by B. Oh well :D
Totally it’s a completely objective art form and I really don’t understand why people get so dogmatic about what’s wrong
It is so frustrating that folks need to tear people down to make themselves feel better. So much nonsense.
Thank you, Alex, for calling out this sort of toxic behavior and providing some useful suggestions for how to deal with the inevitable gatekeeping and otherwise negative feedback any creative person will encounter when they share their work.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. If you're photographing for yourself, then it's up to you what's art. And don't let anyone else say different.
There will always be people that don’t like your work for various reasons. Sometimes it feels personal and others it’s just someone’s opinion. I always remind myself that there are people that don’t like Van Gough’s The Starry Night, shrug at the Sistine Chapel, and don’t like any music by the Beatles. And that is okay. It’s their opinion. Not mine. So why should I expect everyone to like my work if I don’t even like all of it?
One of the greatest challenges in photography and pretty much all art mediums is finding the right person/people to critique your work. I personally never thought my work was very good, despite winning several contests and being published until my brother told me he thought it was good. He never would say something nice to make me feel better. But he would never rip apart my work to make me feel better about it either. My enjoyment and passion wasn’t dependent on his opinion, but it is important to find the right people that you trust to talk to you about your work that are worth listening to.
Truth. I know that I have seen many "works" of art that just don't do anything for me. I appreciate how good they are and what they represent, but they just never excited me. On the other hand, as I suspect everyone else has, I have seen some artwork that would make a critic cringe that I thought was very interesting because the artist did something that was interesting to me. Art is subjective at the very core of its existence, what makes one person (or many) excited about looking at it, just doesn't do anything for others.
You photograph the kind of architecture I tend to ignore and overlook, but you bring focus to the patterns and textures as well as contrast that make me really enjoy your photos. I've even seen buildings I've been in before that you have photographed. I look for beauty in totally different things, so your photos are great for me, because they draw my attention to the things I would otherwise miss while looking at things with my own particular photographic eye.
I like to take snapshots. I don't say I'm a photographer. It's a hobby for me, not a job so I don't feel any pressure to make a "nice" pic 👍😎
Same here, I once put on a macro lens and spent a weekend taking pictures of the wood grain on the wall. And I was perfectly happy.
I've only been into photography 50 years (honestly!) and never had the urge to go beyond taking pictures that I liked. I chuckle fondly at the youngsters just discovering film photography... I was also in a photo club 50 years ago, when I was very green, realised that I wasn't cut out for what others considered right, so went my own way. Now I really want to troll the trolls on Social Media... 🤣
This freaks out a lot of people. The very idea that someone might take a picture because it's significant to them alone and not because they are trying to build a portfolio of saleable images to show off.
There was a time I made a living with a camera. I still can take very good documentary photos in covering weddings and events. I don't have a business Facebook page, I don't keep a business web site. What people do see is family snapshots and travel photos on my personal page. Because I don't maintain a body of "professional" work online that is easily accessible, any comments I might make are automatically dismissed.
Same here. I maintain an IG acct that I make sure all photos that I make that I really like are posted to.
Love to see you are back online
Thank you for this! I am perpetually irked by these people, but also recognized their influence on my work as you spoke (& I’m only halfway through). Feeling grateful & inspired. 🥂
Good valid points. Add the ‘photographers’ who only do it as a hobby deriding those who do it for a business & decide for business reasons there’s no need to upgrade to every single camera release. I stopped engaging in comments on photography channels on UA-cam many years ago because of the toxicity.
Your comment at 5:20. So right. These negative somewhat personal comments says more about them than it does you.
There are tons of people who believe they lift themselves up by tearing others down. It's the only way they can feel good about themselves. Those people are not just common to Photography but they are present in every walk of life.
Great video. Photography is an artform, so subjective by definition. I like some photos, others I don't but I keep my opinions to myself unless invited (and then if I think the feedback will be constructive), as I have listened to 'experts' in other fields and it stopped me being creative. Now I would hopefully say 'stuff 'em'.
Thank you for bringing this topic up. I find in my circumstances it is more related to people being jealous. I just ignore and continue doing what I most enjoy in photography. Keep clicking and enjoy it!
These people are found in every hobby, my second hobby is Hifi and music. I have a great system but it is not in a dedicated listening room, how many hate responses I have got because of that.🤦🏼
But what they think or say is of no importance at all, they won't tell me how I have to enjoy my hobby's.
And in photography things like the rule of thirds is not a rule at all, it is a guideline.
Could well be your most important video! The most critical skill in art is courage!! Cheers Alex!!
I belong to a photography group here in Alaska .So far we have not run into any negative comments.Everyone is very supportive!!!!
I can relate! I have three major hobbies: music making, amateur radio and photography, and I interact with likeminded people on social media. Most interactions with any of the groups are respectful and encouraging. However, the most contentious, insulting and discouraging comments happen only inside the photography groups.
Amen brother. I thought it was just me, with my tiny 10k channel and 40 years a pro who was constantly being bitten by the photography gatekeepers (that’s a great title for em btw). Big kudos to you for calling them out, and letting fellow snappers know they are not alone. The great photographer Bill Brandt summed it up perfectly when he said “photography is not a sport, there are no rules”. Great work putting this one out there , you’ve made my day 👏👏
Wise words indeed. I think this applies to just about anything you care to image, there will be the insecure, negative, the trolls.
So many of the greats in the arts have been controversial, there's no shame in ruffling some feathers!
One thought to always to consider. They maybe wrong or ignorant. Even if they may be sincere
It’s art. Be thick-skinned when hearing criticism (unless it’s invited and coming from a knowledgeable source) and very suspicious of rules. Thanks for another inspiring video. 🙏
Yep - last year I tried to get local "professionals" to get a regular photo challenge private group together. Nobody wanted to be critiqued or seen as "learning" new things, so they weren't interested.
It was telling how fixed they were in their ways, and how loathe they were to break out of their comfort zones and the formula that they've used for years.
I ended up joining a group for a city a few hours away and couldn't be happier.
I would just like to add that I am certainly not the only one who looks at your work and appreciates your creativity, your style and the art, they are clearly your vision and I find it inspiring and I enjoy looking at these photographs. I can see that even in those who don't appeal to me as much. Anyone who cannot enjoy the success and development of others is poor in many qualities.
I really enjoyed watching this video, Alex.
I’m 62 and took up photography during Covid.
I do it purely because I enjoy it. I continually experiment with different genres, and feel like a kid again when I produce something I like.
I get out in the fresh air, see wonderful aspects of nature, and produce photos with that truly magical contraption called a camera.
There will always be those who try to tear someone down. It’s usually because they’re not happy within themselves. I’m old enough not to care. 😂
It’s unfortunate that they can put someone younger off their hobby/passion because ‘they’ are not happy.
Ignore the haters, folks.
That last paragraph is why I made this video. I don’t want people to be put off pursuing their hobby because of some harsh words
Thank you for this. Negativity can really hinder and even spoil creativity. Over the years I have learned not to pay much attention to the negative souls since I don't shoot for them, I make my art for me.
Well put. I was once hounded by a so called “Gatekeeper” who would even try to put my clients off. Only problem for him, my clients loved my photos, and only their opinion and my own critique of the photos (and I’m very critical of my own) matter. 😁
People who judge others by their standards are the worst. When you want to share your photos and share your techniques, someone comes along who, not only tells you ‘you are doing it all wrong’ but they insult you and use negative language towards you. I made the mistake once of answering one of those comments questioning their abusive language and they just doubled down and ranted how they can do what they like, blah, blah, blah. I try to ignore those people. If they want to be abusive it says more about them than anything else.
You're right on. Online forums has made this noise worse and it often get personal. It's amazing what people will say online when they know you can't punch them in the nose.
It's not just in photography, but all over. In the classic motorcycle world there are "rivet counters"; men who will tell you that your nicely (and expensively) restored motorcycle is not quite as it left the factory, and they'll tell you why, in detail. But there's a subset of these types, who upon seeing the new BSA 650cc Gold Star parked up have to tell the proud owner why it isn't a "real BSA" and that they would never buy one. I think it's because the BSA name has been bought by an overseas company and they feel their World is broken.
I was going to comment along the same lines of experiencing these "kind" folk outside photography.
Someone always had something destructive to say but when pressed offer no real solutions.
That's why I don't bowl and I don't do softball. 🤣 There's always "professionals" who impede on a good time. 😂
OUTSTANDING commentary!!! LOVE your channel!!! GREAT pix!!!
Alex, I just wanted to say "thank you" for your channel! I've learned so much, and your strategies, thought processes, and your street photography samples you present here have started effecting me as I'm lining up my own shots! You do a great service to society, and society owes you a cup of tea. :) We need to always consider the source, as there is a lot of cultural harassment going on all over the internet, as it's a free and easy platform for them to attack. By them, I mean people at all of the extremes; of politics, religion, traditional vs. progressive values, economics, etc. Just being here can make us a target to someone. I just wish we wouldn't have to deal with this, but it is what it is at this point. Best wishes to you and thank you again for all you do.
Great video Alex... " not enough details in the shadows" is a favourite with Camera Club judges when it comes to my B&W images.. More often than not if i look at these judges websites i find they havent posted anything since 2010.!
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Step 1, refer them to Ralph Gibson. Step 2, there is no step 2.
Peter Elgar (on UA-cam) a retired regional press photographer, showed on of his photographs of a church in Europe he entered into his local camera club. Was told the picture would have looked better photo stacked. Peter replied: 'That's hard to do with film'.🤣
I think Alex addressed this quite well, sometimes I (could be anyone) just don't want the details in the shadows.
@@Resgerr Peter is wonderful. Love his channel.
"Really," you should reply, "have you seen Ansel Adams' work? He seemed to do ok!" Sometimes you want some shadows to disappear into mystery. This tendency to make every image look like HDR, with a virtual obsession to have detail in every millimeter does not appeal to me.
These malcontented, toxic web creepers are all over the place, putting people down every chance they get, just miserable humans. Thank you for saying this nice and loud so people can hear it. A newcomer should be encouraged and if they ask for constructive criticism, do it with grace and empathy. The adage of an old hippie rings true: treat others as you would like to be treated.
Joined a photography club and all they asked me was what camera did I use. When I said Canon, one older man mentioned that it was a good starter camera. Such harsh criticism and ridicule for some images that were quite good. I didn't dare submit at first but later did. During Covid and afterwards, we had such great photographers speak via Zoom and they all asked the same question "what camera do you use? The best answer was "the older the better!" I left the club and wish I could find a group that I could learn from. I listen to your videos and really enjoy them. I don't understand the nasty comments. What do they gain from that toxic energy? Keep up your great work. Thank you
This hit the spot. I was in a FB group where I knew I was not good enough for their magazine. But members took joy in telling me this unsolicited. It drove me out as life is just too short to fight that kind of community.
I love to follow your channel because it introduces me to photographers and their work that I have never known before, but there are topics, such as this, that need to be discussed. I make it a habit never to disparage another photographer’s work, no matter their experience level. We all belong to the world wide group known as the Photography Club.
About 15 years ago I took a picture that I loved. A lot. I captured a diesel locomotive on a side track rumbling over dusty rails, while a pedestrian walked nearby, Golden hour lighting. I was proud of it because the industrial gritty feel of the area where I captured it in Seattle. No on else liked it. It got rejected multiple times on a railfan website, and collected multiple negative critiques. I shared it a couple times since then, and still the lukewarm responses continued. To this day I still love the photo, maybe because I remember the moment or I love where I live. I still have that inner voice - that ultimate critic - who makes me question the shots I take. I'm learning to shut out that voice and capture what I love. Thanks for sharing this, and giving words to a feeling and experience that all of use have lived!
Thanks for covering this topic, there's alot of folks out there that listen to the wrong people. Another great video!
I've often found that the gatekeepers own work is usually static and dull. They may be technically strong but they rarely stray from textbook images.
I needed to hear this and I'm not even a photographer. It's universal. Thanks.👍
Happens in almost every technical hobby. Just enjoy what you do and don't worry too much about strong opinion whilst you improve your craft.
Like how you titled each chapter with a title or line from 80s music 😊I've listened to music on many different media platforms over my life and I've also dabbled in photography in different platforms and the one thing that it all has in common is that I did it because it makes me feel good 😊
Good advice and a wonderful lecture about progressing as a photographer.
photography is like beauty in the eye of the beholder
I am so glad I came across this video. I have been enjoying photography from an amateur standpoint for all of my considerable life, and I don't consider myself particularly creative. With no eye for colour (I suffer from the hindrance of many males with difficulty distinguishing red from green), I just take photos which please me, with thoughts for those photos I have admired taken by others, applying the technical experience, such as it is, of my years. That is all you need. Thanks for pointing out what I already knew in my heart. Go out and have fun!
When I was 17 (1970'S) with my new Nikon FE I went to my local camera club to help me progress in my chosen hobby and was treated like two week old roadkill. I vowed never to go near such a place again. I shot for a while with a good friend and we inspired each other. Sadly his interest waned before mine and I became a holiday only photographer. In 2007 a chance meeting found another source of inspiration and I became a motorsport photographer but business pressures outside of photography meant that this time it was my interest that waned after 7 or 8 very good years. I picked up my cameras again in 2022 to do a wedding for my sister in law and this inspired me to trade up two tired D3's to the new world of mirrorless. I discovered that someone that I have known for over ten years was also a photographer and a good one at that and now we inspire each other.
I totally agree shoot what makes you happy, don't critique the work of others in public as it makes you look either foolish or an ass. Save the critic in you for your inner voice to inspire you to create and grow not diminish others. Seek the company of like minded individuals not those who are influenced by a pack mentality.
Really sucks when they run photo organizations
Wow! 100% agreed! I had a similar rant about the PSSA (from from your accent, i suspect you don't need me to elaborate on the abbreviation) 10 years ago. They would indoctrinate their members using very regimented judging criteria. Their members would move up through the ranks, by conforming to these strict requirements with their own photographic submissions and ultimately become judges themselves and perpetuate the regime. That aside, well said! That is a very healthy attitude towards destructive criticism.
When I started decades ago I was told I needed to do this and that etc... Glad I didn't listen to any of them.
I just picked up photography again more seriously after years of just making snapshots with my phone. What you’re saying really helps me to do just what I like. I really like your photos as well!
I quit the whole photography club because it was dominated by negativity. I find your stuff super inspiring. I was told my work had no subject without a human in it. I was told my work had no value if it didn't tell a story. Nobody there understood the artful eye of photography. Just the image as human framed object for human consumption. A fantasy or a memory shared. Yet it can be more like a painting, the subject about it's lines and shapes or the movement thereof, rather than some anthropocentric function. I left feeling frustrated and disappointed rather than shamed. I also felt I did not get the learning and maturing I sought in such staid atmosphere. Honestly, this video has just hit the on switch for the first time in years and its not herons I want to photograph now! Moar pylons and trusses!!!
Thank you. This was a very encouraging chat. Very.
I could have responded to your video with a huge tract of text but in the end it all comes down to this: I agree with you 100% and you have put your thoughts across really well.
”If you can’t grow by yourself, cut someone else’s legs”, is a Swedish quote that I have kept in my mind for 30 years. I’m so fed up with people that have to spread their negativity around! Their selfishness is suffocating. Unfortunately these gatekeepers are the reason I don’t join photo groups, I rather learn from UA-camrs that show photos they are proud of even if the photos are 30 years old. I call that perspective and insight into what it means to grow, and I’m grateful that someone takes their time and knowledge to make videos teaching photography. So, thank you Alex!
I like your mindset about photography a lot. Actually it took me back to photography again. Thank you!
That’s awesome to hear. I’m so very very pleased.
My comment on your images --- Wow! You are framing the images to show action, often cutting off part of a subject to throw us into the middle of that action.
It's a great technique.
I tend to do the opposite: "I have to fit everything into the frame." This gives me ideas for, well, breaking that frame.
The biggest mindset change anyone can have when it comes to toxic and hateful online comments is to approach it with empathy. Feel sorry for these people. You have to be in a very sad and depressed state that you choose to go online (when you could choose to do anything else) and try to bring others down by leaving nasty remarks. Their comments are a reflection of how they must be feeling inside. Feel sorry for these people for 5-10 seconds and realise they must be in a really dark place... then move on with your life.
Absolutely agree with everything you have said. I am an elderly enthusiast shooting entirely for my own enjoyment and apart from very useful post processing instruction
on UA-cam for example I have now studiously avoided' Clubs' and' Rules ( especially Rules ) and' How to' and competitions and Instagram - and feel quite liberated as a result. Looking at pictures
of past photographers has been the most useful learning lesson for me and the most important factor that matters to me is the 'emotional' connection I might have with a shot