James Lindsay & Aaron Bastani: Why does the Left support Palestine?
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- Опубліковано 1 лип 2024
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UnHerd's Freddie Sayers sits down with professional troublemaker James Lindsay and Novara Media's Aaron Bastani to discuss the modern and historical relationship between the political Left and support of Palestine.
Read the accompanying article: unherd.com/thepost/why-does-t...
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// TIMECODES //
00:00 - 01:45 - Introduction
01:45 - 05:00 - James Lindsay argues the woke Left are defending Hamas
05:00 - 11:05 - Lindsay on woke’s intellectual lineage
11:05 - 14:02 - The origins of Palestinian liberation movements
14:02 - 19.26 - Joe Biden is often accused of being woke and yet he supports Israel…
19.26 - 27:35 - Decolonization, genocide and a mindset of oppression
27:35 - 29:31 - A potential fascist uprising in the US and Canada
29:31 - 43:01 - Aaron Bastani on the British Left and their alliance with Palestine
43:01 - 47:00 - Bastani and Lindsay find common ground on Free Speech
47:00 - 58:22 - Should the police concern themselves with racist and violent speech?
58:22 - 01:05:40 - the Right’s failure recognizing the relationship between foreign policy and the refugee crisis
01:05:40 - 01:06:08 - Concluding thoughts
#UnHerd #Palestine #Israel
At 45:30, the issue is NOT that the person with the Taliban/Daesh/Shahada/ISIS flag was quietly arrested the next day. What burns my biscuits is why the guy with the St. George's flag was arrested on the spot in the first place. In his own country! That's a big problem.
Yep! Tells me it’s time to leave. Time to retreat. No one seems to be brave enough to do something about it. The vast majority of people are too afraid of being called racist so it’s time to leave and let them deal with the fallout
@@UNITED8993 yup. where do you have picked out?
As far away as possible. Oz most likely. @@garrettlees
@@UNITED8993Australia has fallen. Ir's even worse than London.
@@drwhatson yes, but Oz still has a lot more going for it than the UK. Growth, economy, housing, weather all far better than the UK. I also wouldn’t move to the super liberal areas.
The way I see it, as a Brit we always suffered the sh*tty weather and bad food because being British meant something. That just isn’t the case anymore and being here watching my country go to sh*t is way worst than moving to a country where I am an immigrant myself and therefore can’t complain about immigration.
This level of agreement is what can happen when people speak and listen to each other in good faith.
People who have done their research and know what they're talking about - for a change.
I think it's a lot in the format. If it was an American news TV debate things would be different.
Both sides were given a lot of time to present a view of their view before discussion starts. And they're doing this face to face.
I think the face to face presenting your view part of this is very important.
This level of agreement is boring and uninteresting and does nothing for views, likes, virality and the success of narcissism.
Do not expect many more videos with people agreeing on shit.
@@0xCAFEF00DThat is so true. I didn't see any of these men treating the other as a straw man to attack. Rare, but refreshing.
That’s why I love James Lindsay. He understands the Left, better than the Left.
That’s actually exactly what you see in this video. The Marxist didn’t say much and seemed like he was learning about the history of the left lol
@@chrisgavin2794 You must have difficulties with English comprehension.
No, you haven't met Dr Karlyn Borysenko then, she doesn't sugar coat the fact the CAPITALISM is ultimately what's being attacked by the "Woke"...do yourself a favor, follow her instead.
You are a sheep. Most of his points are completely unsupported and a lot of the evidence he provides is inflated in its real-world impact on todays geopolitical climate. You are just dumb enough to call anyone criticizing the left a genius.
This guy said that the Nazis believed they could "bring about a perfect society through the machinations of Dialectical Materialism" and prior to that, leant credence to the argument that the word "Socialist" being used in the Nazi Party's full name indicates that they were actually Socialist. This is not a serious thinker nor historian.
The first guy put into words the things I’ve been thinking about
The world needs more grown up conversations like this
One side believes in sex changes for kids and the other doesn't. How do you have an adult conversation with someone like that lol
Conversations don't solve problems, ask the palestinians if this conversation made their life better.
He said the nazis were leftists two minutes in.
It’s just worth remembering that. 😂
Thanks dad
@@CarlyonProductionYes, because they were socialists. The Left needed to tag them as right wing to deflect from Soviet leftwing socialist horrors.
The Palestinians are no different than the Nazis: both want(ed) an ethnic homeland.
I am sorry, but I am simply not buying the idea that the participants in these large pro-Palestinian demonstrations are normal and generous people. Two obvious things are glaringly missing from their unilateral focus on the rights of the "opressed ": 1) they never asked for the immediate release of Israeli prisoners in Gaza -not even the children or babies that are known to have been taken; and 2) they refused to condemn Hamas - and not only for the terrorism of October 7 - but also for using Palestinians in Gaza as human shields and preventing them from seeking safety. If you claim to be on the side of the opressed, you should always be most concerned with the immediate threat to those you claim you support. And the children hostages? I am sorry, but that is unforgivable, no matter how ideologized and crazy one is.
One question.. where is safe in Gaza?
@@basicallymussy553 it appears to be where there are no active Hamas fighters left. and this is not specific to Gaza. it was true of every conflict in history. civilian population want to bear no responsibility for what their countries, armies and leadership do. it does not work like that in the real world. in any event, Israel is the only country in the world that actively pursues notifying and giving escape routes to civilians, often at tge cost of the lives of their soldiers and operational goals. it is so grossly dissingenous not to recognizs that fact, that it is simply shocking. by the way, no country ever before in history succeeded to maintsin the casualty ratio of combatants vs. non-combatant civilians at 1 to 1. and to manage this into a super dense urban warfare environment is simply a miracle! if you fail to see and understand this is the result of relentless propaganda and political agitation. it is not hard to look into it more cloely and draw your own conclusions.
@@ConstantinDV wait so you saying Israel killed 25k Hamas fighters ? Since the killed 25k women and children… remember you can’t easily drop warnings and paper unless you not scared of anything happening to your planes meaning they really not fighting a army or soldier just a resistance group with bunch of guns and they using 2000 pound dumb bombs .. ya sounds like they care
Nailed it
Jihad = struggle for power
And death is always on the table
"What's gray area about Jihad?" is the question one wouldn't have thought to be ought to ask in 2023.
What's gray area about 600,000 illegal Jewish settlers in the West Bank?
Whats gray area about american hegemony that has resulted ib literally millions of deaths post WWII? That is a question we should have been asking ourselves for DECADES. Quit pretending we are viewing the world from atop an ivory tower.
Jihad means struggle. 99% of jihad has nothing to do with war.
@@Wakamolewonder True, and misleading at the same time. Jihad means struggle , effort
But there's 2 jihads: internal jihad, and external jihad. Internal jihad is struggle against the self : it's the usual religious bs about resisting sin, repeating the brainwashing chants, constantly convincing yourelf to not doubt about your cult and bowing 5 times a day, etc etc
External jihad is struggle/effort AGAINST THE ENNEMIES OF ISLAM
You really can't say that jihad is 99% unrelated to war lol. Because there's 2 jihad. The jihad we're talking about is 100% about war , terrorism and invasive maneuvers be them political or straight up armed.
Islam is absolutely NOT a religion of peace. No more than communism is the power of the people: it's all a lie , a slogan that claims the exact opposite of what it truly is
@@TheOneAndOnlySame external jihad: giving to the poor, being kind to your neighbors, cleaning up your neighborhood, working a job to support your family.
Youre the guy who’s watched every UA-cam video on black holes and now think you’re a physicist.
I'm very surprised this didn't descend into a slanging match. So refreshing to see people discuss in a civil and reasonable manner.
Well done, Freddie and the Unherd crew, for getting these two together in the same room. I wish we'd had another hour of discussion. Hats off to both James Lindsay and Aaron Bastani for participating in good faith. This is how it's done.
Agreed, this should have been a 2.5-3 hour session rather than just the one.
Was going to comment wish it was longer
To you it’s a great academic discussion but calling for death of Jews on western streets really highlights how the Holocaust happened with these discussions having no clue how Jews felt. And it’s worse now as the enemy has no borders but lives in a house nearby and sits on the school board and the Green benches. Jihad isn’t in any way comparable to onward Christian soldiers - just look at what happened on 7/10. Walked up!
Wake-up
Great discussion indeed! We need many more like this
I about CHOKED at the end with the claim that Biden has been great for our economy. WTF???
Biden is great for the economy like abortion is great for children.
I was struck by how congenial this was. honestly incredible in today's atmosphere. Bravo to all three of you - absolute gentlemen.
Comparing the hymn 'onward christian soldiers' to calls for jihad on our streets is utterly ridiculous
Islamoleftism in a nutshell
Why?
Thank you
@@michelefox9539 because Christians are white and these people are racist
@@michelefox9539 Not an ureasonable question, and needs addressing. I don't think it's fair to call the comparison "utterly ridiculous" but it does conflate two VERY different contexts. The hymn is about spiritual warfare, it's about conquering evil as a moral entity, it's about the battle for the soul and the role of salvation, it is NOT about human war or conflict/conquest of territory or people. Jihad is very clearly about a human context and it promotes violence in a very practical, tangible sense (I don't know that anyone who has every looked into the concept can honestly disagree with that). They are two different realms, so it may seem an honest comparison but it's an ignorant one.
Excellent discussion. I would like to see more of James and Aaron conversing together about the issues of the day. Thanks to Freddie and UnHerd for doing this.
Bastani is not representing the Communist opinion throughout pretty much any of this, though he kind of pick and chose certain facts (especially right off the bat, in regards to the Soviet Union and Israel). The strong belief in free speech is regularly touted by Marxists when they're getting clobbered, but Bastani mostly doesn't seem to be a Marxist, at least in this particular bit of content. The best example of free speech might recently be seen in Australia, where there was a group of people shouting to ""Gas the J" - it's great that free speech let's us know what these people are saying. The question, which James touched on, is what do you do with such people? Or one's shouting terrorist slogans at the top of their lungs? And what if they're university students? The Leftist answer that's been shouted for a decade has been "Punch a Nazi!" but now the one's shouting these things are clearly on the Progressive side, just like the last time such sentiments were shouted. You can't put them all in jail - but as James said, probably opening a file on them by the authorities should at least be on the table.
@shukuffxi I am not really sure what you are trying to say here. It seems pretty obvious that there are multiple confusions happening throughout this discussion, and it seems obvious that James Lindsay has no idea what he is talking about while Aaron Bastani is not equipped due to massive differences culturally between how race functions in the USA and in Britain. For example in USA there have been minimal levels of antisemitism at pro-palestine demonstration, and this due to the fact that one of the major participants in the fight for Palestinian liberation in the USA is Jewish Voices for Peace.
@@nmk5003
"Minimal levels of antisemitism" 😂
Eradicating the only Jewish state in existence sounds kinda antisemtic to me.
American Jews are either devoutly religious or they're devout Marxists. 🤷♂️
There was no discussion, just the mixing of a lot of philosophies that do tend to take from each other but that about only half a per cent of the world (if that) understands.
@@nmk5003 There has been a large turn out of Jewish support for Palestinians in British marches as well though. Na'amod, Jewish Voice for Labour, Jews for Justice for Palestinians, along with the Jewish Socialists' Group all marched and wanted Palestinian liberation. The fact that they are now trying to be painted as antisemitic might in itself be antisemitic. The problem with this issue is that no one is right. The brits messed up big time 80 years ago, and instead of owning their mistake and spending the time to fix it, they wrote a white paper saying sorry we messed up, it's not our problem anymore, it's America's problem now. And America messed up because when they realised there was no solution that was going to work with everyone, they decided to bank role one group and pretend the other didn't exist. The west created an unsolvable problem, made promises to both groups that contradicted each other, and then peaced out. It led to a radicalisation of both sides. Both being pushed to the far right, both having heavy religious ideologies, and both never having owned a state before. There is no morally right answer that takes into account the history of both sides. There is no justification for either stance that holds up to truthful logic. And so both sides think the other is unjustifiable without taking into account that they themselves are unjustifiable.
Antisemitism is an essential part of left wing politics, so is profound stupidity.
I'm left-wing and support Israel. It's important not to lump everyone together.
A lot to learn here. Thank you for a civil and informative discussion. Tired of the "no u" shouting matches on every channel
I feel you buddy
spot on
Aaron Bastani's POV echos most of my liberal friends, and like most of my friends, he seems oblivious to the blind hatred that's festering on the social justice left. The tribalism, the dehumanizing of one's perceived enemies in every conceivable way, the racism and antisemitism. The cultural supremacy they're promoting, good vs evil. It's much like a fanatical religion. I don't believe that most people on the left are full of hate but I do believe that most are in denial about how much alike the far left and far right are. Prone to violence and to genocide if left unchecked. They can't even see it. I believe our checks and balances are still working but we have to debate these extremes for it to remain so.
Great points!
In what way would the social justice warriors committ genocide?
@@StrongbyLee Historically, the far left is capable of genocide, arguably at least equal in scope to the far right, most often defined as Nazism and fascism. We're seeing the same patterns with the Woke religion, as James Lindsay pointed out, it's almost identical to Mao's cultural revolution that led to millions of senseless deaths. As I said, our checks and balances are in place, but recognizing the patterns, the tribalism, is extremely important imo. Dehumanizing one's 'enemies' is the basis for genocidal behavior. Once an enemy is successfully defined as 'cockroach' or 'Nazi fascist', any extreme behavior can be justified.
@@StrongbyLeeIt already happened in the 1960s in China or the Bolshevik take over of Russia. Leftism is a religion of violence and stupidity.
What views of Bastani's are extreme?
this was an excellent debate that was well managed. Thank you Unherd.
I agree. While I abhor both the people debating, but they raised some interesting points.
@@Hartley_Hare I agree also. Except I like them both.
@@Hartley_Hare What abhors you about both of them? Genuine question out of curiosity
Lindsay has woke derangement syndrome and he’s a nutcase on twitter he thinks every problem on earth is because of wokeness
@@thelifeofabee3895 Lindsay thinks the Nazis were leftists and Bastani is the front man for some very... unusual people.
James Lindsay is one of the great thinkers of my generation.
🤡
Unfortunately his take on this is a travesty. Totally biased on the side of Israel side
😂😂😂😂😂
That would only be impressive if it's still age-appropriate for people in your age cohort to still play with Fisher-Price toys. Unfortunately for us, Lindsay is a grown man and not just an annoying pre-K blunderkind. The man's a demonstrably and famously illiterate bullshit artist with zero grasp of the writers and thinkers he claims to "critique".
Please tell me that you are being ironic here.
Thank you for an intelligent conversation. As a conservative, I'm disgusted by & frightened of the violent Left, but I'm also terrified of a violent, fascist movement developing as well.
"fascist"
everyone that disagrees with the left on anything is a "fascist" at this point.
didn't we have leftist lunatics trying to tear down the statues of Winston Churchill in UK a few years ago?
where exactly have you been?
also, you must one of those "conservatives" that votes for useless garbage humans like Sunak, May or Cameron.
no wonder the Conservative Party is a mockery of its former self.
Churchill and Margaret Tatcher are rolling in their graves for what their party and the country itself has become.
a joke with basically foreign invaders that hate us and want cultist fundamentalist theocratic laws from the Middle East into British streets and towns.
Fascism is left. National Socialism, remember?
I'm an old Lefty but they've lost me with their support of Hamas and Islamism. 🇦🇺
@@gabriellecunningham7196 I’m an old lefty and will never agree with ethnic cleansing or apartheid.
Why are you disgusted by and frightened of the violent left? Towards what and whom is their (supposed) violence directed according to you?
That was definitely not how I thought that was going to play out. Kudos to Unherd and to the guests for a thought-provoking, respectful debate.
No matter what your political leanings are, you have to respect both of these men for breaking the mould and having an actual adult conversation.
Very racist conversation and they don't even know it right?? So funny! :D
Lindsay isn't breaking a mould, he's conforming to the tradition of intellectual debate, wherein you listen to your opponent's argument and debate it on it's own merit. His opponent is of course in the wonderful position of being able to superficially respect this tradition while the people he claims to represent not only despise it, but actively undermine it by using the other side's good faith and tolerance against them. Which is Lindsay's point, mired in esoterica as is necessarily is. Bastani, to his credit, is polite and articulate. If palestinians actually thought as he does, perhaps the glassy-eyed mobs waving flags as if they had anything in common wouldn't seem such dupes. But they don't, and they do, respectively.
@@amarissimus29 I don't think Bastani claims to "represent" anyone. He clearly states we should take people on their own individual merit? However he also explicitly suggests there is a puritanical nature to left wing political which he does not agree with.
None of this negates the fact that if we had more conversations like these, between left, right and centre, we'd find more common ground and woke, and whatever the incoming right wing alternative, wouldn't stand a chance.
@amarissimus29 You typed out a whole comment of wordy, bloviating nonsense to justify your refusal to take anyone's opinion you disagree with seriously and projecting bad faith onto others when you refuse to do the bare minimum of research on a topic you obviously know nothing about. The position of the "vacant eyed" (or whatever pretentious crap you wrote) pro Palestinians is simply that Palestinians deserve to have human rights, which Israeli occupation has been denying them for decades. Anyone who has seriously researched the topic will come to the same conclusion, that the Israeli state rules over millions of Palestinians it denies basic human rights to, abuses in a variety of grotesque ways on a daily basis and has been doing so for decades. There is no justification for this. You can bloviate all you want and look down on people whose position you don't even understand, but it is just intellectual and moral cowardice from someone who is unwilling to even do the bare minimum of understanding the topic.
@@amarissimus29also I can tell by the blowhard way you write that you probably consume a load of Jordan Peterson content. You're not clever bro
When I heard 'Marxist' I was expecting Aaron Bastani to be rude and confrontational but I'm so pleased to have my assumptions proved wrong.
Both speakers were exceptional in their analysis and behaviour and it's wonderful to see sensible debate conducted with respect. Well done.
Try reading and listening to Marxists instead of making a fantasy in your head of what they're like based on stereotypes
Except he's an evasive twat.
Ha I know what you mean! I've been following Aarons' stuff for quite a long time now though and I think he's really excellent. I've spent a lot of time in recent years watching right wing speakers as I was formerly quite left wing and wanted to understand their point of view. I then wanted to balance that out with some left wing content but couldn't find anything any good - until I discovered Aaron. I would recommend looking at some of the Novara Media content - specifically, his interviews with people (I think they're called Downstream). He did a great one with Peter Hitchens a couple of months ago for instance. I will say that I don't rate many of the other Novara presenters - Ash Sarkar is improving I think and Michael Walker is pretty decent. But many of the others - Rivka Brown, Moya Lothian-McLean, Dalia Gebrial, Owen (the tosser) Jones - are almost impossible to watch.
@@notgodzod
Bastani might be the most decent Marxist I've ever seen, and I don't rule out the possibility that he's the kind of person I could actually live with in peace despite our many differences, but like all Marxists, he uses easily provable falsehoods to base his positions.
@@IHateEliranAtar I agree, he seems like a sound guy to me. What are the falsehoods you speak of?
Thank you for providing your viewers with a genuine discussion/debate. Please keep them coming!
This was a civil conversation in which all participants listened to each other and acknowledged valid points. Lindsay mostly talked about left intellectuals in the US and Bastani mostly talked about left politics in the UK. Both were interesting. There wasn't much overlap, so there wasn't a great deal of agreement or disagreement.
Mark Lindsay forgot to mention that US right wing companies where heavily involved with the Nazis to begin with. Eugenics foundation was uniqely a american concept that Germany and also Sweden ran with. why the workers party have socialist in it is less with the name itself but Adolf on behalf of his German government, infiltrated it and realised he could usurp power here.
Reading Mein Kampf you will see that there is very little socialism in it.
What a great debate. In these times of toxic discourse and complete polarisation so refreshing to see two opposing positions agree on many issues. That's the best I've ever seen Bastani-he's not been my favourite journo at Novara but he really has stood up to the plate here.
Yes, totally agree.
I'll summarise the debate for those who do not have the time to watch the entire wonderful video;
Question; "Why does the Left support Palestine?"
Answer; "The Nazi's and the Palestinians have always been natural allies and have a long history of working together to eradicate Jewish people"
The mark against Novaro and Bastani is,they didn't sack Rivka Brown when she was joyous regarding the October 7th attack.
You may not be used to dealing with Marxists. They are ultra pragmatic. He was quite careful with the way he phrased things, even when trying hard to seem reasonable and, mainly, balanced in his positions. I don't trust him at all.
I am from a country where Communists were very ready for violent conflict until they realized they couldn't win. Then they suddenly became very "reasonable".
Our U.S. Founding fathers were stupid. They wrote the Constitution on freedom of religion when it should have been freedom of religion but Islamic. Could you imagine if I form a new religion with my book's guidelines is to kill the Amish? I would be arrested. Muslim's Koran is a book that says kill the infidels. New Testament doesn't have "kill the unbelievers". We should amend the U.S. Constitution. Kick Islam out!!!
Thorougly enjoyed this conversation which has left me with lots to think about. I am going to listen to it again to make sure I didn't miss anything. Thank you to all involved. Well done.
Me too. It was a total travesty. On all three sides.
@@ndertor9413, please expand on that. Thanks.
Aaron, "If you had the choice to live in Israel or Gaza, 99.9% would choose to live in Israel." Except that isn't the case. Gazan's could have lived in Israel, but despite the fact that many chose to work there very specifically chose NOT to live in Israel, because they would not live in a Jewish state. And more to the point, they don't even want the Jewish state to exist, to the extent they have forgone the opportunity to have a non-Jewish Muslim state, by rejecting it on several occasions. They'd rather destroy Israel and live in their 'prison' (we DO disagree on that). The fact is that Gaza was left by Israel for Gazans to rule themselves ... and if there're any similarity to a prison it's one of Gazans' making, as Israel closed it's borders, built a wall to keep Gazans out of Israel, not to keep them in Gaza .. that is until it was clear that Gazans were importing terrorists and weapons to continue their attacks on Israel, so Israel instigated a blockade.
The United States should end military aid to Israel.
1. Military Aid to Israel is unnecessary. Israel is a very prosperous country and more than capable of paying for its own military.
2.Military aid to Israel is a security risk to the United States. Israel has been selling American developed military technology to China for more than a decade. These sales have been instrumental in the modernization of China's military.
3.Military aid to Israel is a diplomatic liability,
4, Military aid to Israel is illegal under American law. Israel's human rights violations disqualifies Israel from receiving military aid under the Leahy law and Israel's refusal to allow inspections of its nuclear sites or sign the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty makes any aid to Israel illegal under the Symington Amendment.
Amazing to hear two guests with diametrically different political views having an adult conversation. Refreshing. Freddie is an excellent chairman.
This is how society SHOULD conduct itself.
The Communist groups of Iran supported and were a considerable help to the Iranian Islamist revolution of 1979. What happened to them subsequently is well-known but conveniently forgotten. The Communists of India had supported the creation of Pakistan as an Islamic state and even spared a few of its leaders to cultivate the idea in the old Punjab province. Again the ideology disappeared in Pakistan after the creation of the Islamic state. The ideology of upheaval and the ideology of religious fascism are invariably partners in Opposition and enemies in power - disposition.
Then why did the liberal capitalist west support bin laden and the Mujahedeen to fight the Communists in Afghanistan? Why do they love Saudi Arabia so much? I mean Venezuela has lots of oil, if it's about "morality" then surely Saudis are worse. Why did they arm "moderate rebels" who were islamic terrorists in Libya and Syria to overthrow Gaddafi and assad? It is the Capitalist Imperialist liberal west that weaponises savagery. And that's not even to mention the death squads and fascists elsewhere.
And then Iran monetarily backed the socialist movement in Venezuela. Muslims know how destructive socialists are.
Brilliant comment
Communism is haram
So the useful idiots are the first against the wall.
Yes. It feels like the same energy/spirit behind the nazis.
Freudian slip there “The oppressor can use any means….” And then he self corrected.
Love Dr Lindsay! Heard him speak at an event in defense of getting rid of Marxism in our education system
Schools SHOULD be as politically neutral as possible. No matter what ideology: left, right, center etc.
@It's a religious text, that's why most economists treat it as such.
Most people want a ceasefire. A permanent worldwide ceasefire. But it doesn't matter because it's both warring factions that need to want a ceasefire and they don't.
Hamas broke the ceasefire on Oct 7th. Israel has now had enough of Hamas breaking ceasefires and so now wants to destroy Hamas. They will not want a ceasefire until that is done. Hamas wants a ceasefire so that they can regroup and rearm to then attack Israel again, as they have constantly started.
Hamas and their Gazan supporters do not think the same way as those of us in the West. That is why it is very difficult for Westerners to accept what Hamas and the people of Gaza are.
What a great conversation. Maybe there is hope for the world. I've listened to James and his concerns for about a year. And in recent days I'm watching Novara media. I think the issues in Israel/Palestine are of interest to people who are left, right, centre and politically disinterested; Christian, Jew, Muslim, non religious; young and old and from many countries. I agree with the point that people may have become anti war since the events prior to the war in Iraq. I certainly woke up at that time; I will never forget the propaganda and deceit at that time. I also remember the lack of action at the time of the Rwandan genocide and the time wasted asking if "acts of genocide" or "genocide" were taking place. Sadly, we know what happened in Rwanda. With so many brutal wars in quick succession people are asking questions and can see hypocrisy and double standards.
Does the genocide happening in South Africa and across Europe of the European natives bother you too?
In Yemen there have been killed just as many civilians as in the gaza strip since the latest outbreak. Zero coverage by media. Why?
@@LTYAJSIEIEJGRYAJHSKWHE726Armenians & other Christian peoples are being wiped out, yet unfortunately, unlike Israel, those victims can't fight back effectively.
All the wars started with the mixed Arabs Mouslam called themselves Palestine FAkE PALESTINE'S never had country before mixed Arabs Mouslam occupied original Israel since British colony bought them to worked for the British colony occupied Israel original ISRAEL
I got nothing from Aaron's opening statement. He spoke for 20 minutes without really saying anything. Freddie needed to ask the same questions to both people so we could actually see why marxism is so ridiculous but we never got there.
Accusations of "antisemitism" are NO different than accusations of accusations "Islamophobia".
I like James a lot, but to omit the influence of the Jewish lobby on US politicians is almost obscene.
And a whole lot of other things. I'd love to tell them what I was busy doing as a political activist, I can answer some of his questions. But if I do, YT will ban me for spamming. I've been warned already so my lips are sealed.
This was a debate about why the Left supports Hamas. I don't think this debate was about US support for Israel as such, no more than it was about the greater global Muslim Nation support for Hamas. That is another debate. Unless of course, you think the Left is driven by hatred for the USA or Jews and that is why they support Hamas.
He explained the evolution of US support for Israel.
Plus there is the control of news from Gaza. Over 100 journalists (majority Palestnian) killed by Israel military. And today the ban of Aljeseera news. The lack of news on increased setters in West Bank under cover of Gazan crisis. Hitler implemented "The Hunger Plan" killing est. 7million people.
1. Aaron managed to squirm his way out of the "Of course I would attend a Palestine rally but would only attend an Israeli vigil on professional grounds (which he didn't)"
2. Freedom of speech isn't right-wing, it's a centrist position. You can't conserve a culture if you have freedom of speech and expression". The right curtails speech to conserve their values and the left curtails speech to ensure their revolution/liberation can't be opposed.
Great conversation!
I would argue free speech isn't a political position at all, it's a humanitarian one.
1- Bastani quite clearly states his reasons. He's not "squirming," he is clearly against the actions of the state of Israel and doesn't think it appropriate to show support by attending a vigil in a personal capacity. The reverse is true for those who attend the Israel vigil and not pro-Palestine protests. Not hard to understand.
2 - "Freedom of speech" in abstact a value across the political spectrum, it is not centrist, there are left wingers and right wingers who believe in it too.
He does alot better than Lindsay when confronted with the facts about mass uncontrolled immergration he agrees which makes no sense to his arguments
Eh?
Wokists are not real liberals. They think that they are fighting for some kind of revolution of the self; but their minds are captured by the corporate state, just like most conservatives. The prevailing logic in both factions ends up subverting our natural rights.
I disbelieve that 76% of Britain agree that there should be a ceasefire in Gaza or that they see images on TikTok. That many people do not watch TikTok.
This was a very enjoyable conversation.
Aaron Bastani, and I mean this as a compliment, is a very dangerous man. A reasonable, level headed and convincing Marxist. I don’t agree with his ideology but, unlike some of his colleagues at Novara, he’s an undeniably credible speaker.
I normally hate 'whataboutism' but I'm guilty of it at the moment. I see, in some cases unconscious, anti-Jewish bias over this issue in the way Israel is singled out for hatred.
It is an artificially created state but so are nearly all of the Arab countries in that area. Other countries have had a big say in its creation but the same can be said for Jordan, Syria etc. The Israelis are responsible for the oppression and even murder of many Arabs but the vast majority of oppressed and murdered Arabs are victims of their own states or other Arabs states in wars. The role of Britain and France is an ever present topic of blame politics without the slightest mention of hundreds of years of Turkish imperialist rule which laid the foundations to all this or position of Arab leaders after the First World War. The Palestinians are uniquely supported as the epitome of a stateless people whilst the Kurds, who are still denied a state by the West, the Turks and the Arabs go forgotten. And I have heard racist talk of immigrants in Israel in a way that would be unthinkable if we were talking about immigrants anywhere else. And much as the mass movement of populations is in my opinion wrong we only have to look at Europe in the late 1940s to see millions of German and Polish speaking people moved en masse as the borders between the USSR, Poland and Germany shifted several hundred kilometres to the west. This is not seen as a nakba. Maybe it should be.
Finally, I am disappointed by the lack of interest from Palestinian supporters in the nature of a future Palestinian state. If they imagine some free, democratic, secular state with human rights guaranteed for all its people then I feel they are deluded.
On your last point you could say the same about Germany in the early 1940s - would a future German state be a secular, liberal democratic one? It was in 1942 ‘gripped’ by a totalitarian ideology which the vast majority of people ‘accepted’ as a self-evident truth. After the removal of the regime we ended up with two German states (the people were the same in each area) but very different outcomes. Of course, the two states got very different kinds of support - one got the Marshall rebuilding plan whilst the other got stripped of its assets. We have to be careful of ‘racialising’ people, saying ‘x’ are “incapable” of democracy because of some existing “trait” or “culture”. Churchill said the latter about ‘Indians’, and now India is often quoted as the world’s largest democracy. I think the weakest part of this debate is the Left-Right ‘mapping’, as if this ever really explains things. Milgram’s experiment was much better at explaining the Holocaust than any political analysis of competing ‘ideologies’. The rise of Nazism wasn’t just about ‘ideology’ but what Timothy Snyder refers to as “anticipatory obedience” (in Chp 1, On Tyranny: Twenty Lessons from the Twentieth Century).
The difference between Israel and the Arab states is that Israel is the product of settler colonialism, it is the product of the ethnic cleansing of the indigenous population, those other states weren't. And by the way, what you think a Palestinian state may or may not be like is totally irrelevant, the reality is there is no justification for the continued occupation, violation of Palestinian human rights, and theft of Palestinian land. If you are more concerned with Israel being "singled out" because of a fictional antisemitism rather than its very real oppression of Palestinians) than with the atrocities, mass murder of Palestinians and decades long occupation that's a moral issue and failure on your own part. Pathetic attempt to justify what is blatantly one of the most criminal and disgusting states in existence
Excellent point, well made, especially when considering the Turks and Kurds - I hadn't even thought of that but its interesting to see how the prevailing narratives of the conflict are ignoring the ironies and nuances of the history
Southern Poverty Law Center is a perfect example of a social movement which morphed into a grift
Look out the work of Daryl Davis. As he says, the SPLC cannot ‘recognise’ the KKK because to do so would be to ‘ligitimise’ the KKK. But Davis, as an individual Southern Black man, can and does talk to individual KKK members - he has even caused a few to leave the KKK simply by meeting them. They had never met a Black man before, and were surprised to find they had a lot in common with him.
This was a fascinating discussion and also an excellent display of what we are severely lacking in political discourse these days. Patience, respect and above all actually LISTENING to the other side. Bravo everyone involved
Excellent discussion, thanks Freddie for bringing these two gentlemen together.
Civil discourse is always the best solution to mitigate the divisiveness propagated by those clinging to power. Well done Unherd.
Surprised Freddy doesn’t readily see the connection with what is occurring with the young in the west and the Cultural Revolution in China.
Or turning a blind eye
This was a surprisingly most professional and respectful debate considering the subject matter.
Congratulations to both James and Aaron here 👏👏👏👏
I have followed both of these people for years, and am delighted to see some courteous intelligent debate.
🙏
People are just chanting slogans they've learned from their friends. I don't understand how they didn't see it happen when Hamas literally broadcast their atrocities
The Europeanized Jews, like Africanized bees, by and large have been committing atrocities since they invaded en masse after WWII. I would not doubt if, like 9/11, the "Hamas attacks" were not a ruse to have an excuse to wipe out one more enclave of downtrodden indigenous people.
Because they didn’t watch any of them. They don’t care!
@@kerrylewisRN and they don't want to because it would challenge their views
I’ve come to this thought as well. It seems like SO many people are reacting as if they have NOT seen the videos. I assume that some portion of them have and aren’t very affected by it, but that there must be some non-negligible number of them who managed to not see these frankly traumatizing videos. I think we’re all used to seeing photos of war zones, of people dead or dying from bombs or even gunshots, which are terrible, especially when those people are children, but to watch a live action video of someone having their head separated from their body while they’re still alive has burned my brain in an admittedly different way.
@@kerrylewisRN Have you seen the daily atrocities being committed against Palestinians? They have lost about 90% of their land.
Before listening to the discussion, I'd say the answer to Aaron's opening question is intersectionality. While I'm surprised that misogynistic societies get a free pass from feminists, I can see that 'brown' skinned, supposedly colonized, oppressed and marginalized minorities automatically acquire the status of victimhood, making, yes, those white, patriarchal, capitalist, allegedly European peoples the victimizers. Oh, and twenty-somethings searching for meaning identify with the victims, even though the queer among them would not last long in the countries they claim honorary sympathy with. Still, they won't condemn FGC and other barbarisms. And I'm sick of their lazy, simple-minded, sloganeering intellects.
One problem with ‘intersectionality’ is that it is premised on an underlying ‘methodological individualism’ - the individual is a ‘member of’ Group A, Group B, and Group C - they (the individual) are the ‘intersection’ of three ‘social divisions’ (economics, racial, sexual). This is radically different from Frantz Fanon’s critique (which James Lindsay does misrepresent to an extent) where the individual is divided between two positions: Fanon was a Black man who trained as a doctor in Paris and thus was treated as ‘white’ by other Black men; but as a ‘Black’ doctor he was still not recognised as White by other doctors. The individual is not at an intersection of two, three or four ‘identities’ (poor, black, woman) but a site of struggle - who can I be? Who do I want to be? Should I take this or that path? This leaves the individual as ‘open’ to the future rather than as a ‘victim’ of past circumstance.
Noted socialist and author of 1984 George Orwell argued that the Nazis and USSR Communists had much more in common than not.
It's nice to see an amicable discussion between two people who couldn't be more different ideologically.
i think if Aaron were familiar with American culturewar chicanery, "antiwoke" etc, there would have been more fireworks.
Aaron stayed aloof. which wasn't completely bad for the discussion, but was a hard-cringe for me with pop-right tropes that never got pursued.
@@zalooAstroturfed shit to redirect rage.
Why I left the Left. Why the Left left me.
And the oppressed becomes the oppressor.
This was the first episode of anything UA-cam allowed me to find on a balanced discussion! I appreciate what you do.
Refreshing to discuss differences without getting heated, thanks.
I have not had a chance to listen yet, but I will a bit later. Before listening, I have to state the obvious truth to those who know what Islam teaches as the governments of Gaza and the West Bank and others believe. It is hard to understand why people on the left, who live in freedom here in the US and Europe, would support the government and social / cultural religious system in Palestine, which is opposed to the freedom in which the left exists in the West. If the left succeeds in helping Palestinians gain control of all Israel, which is what “free Palestine” means to the Palestinians, then the left will have set up a government in which they cannot exist. This government and culture will violently suppress and oppress all those who differ from Islam’s teachings. I can only conclude that the left here supports Palestine because they mean something different than what the Palestinians mean when they say, “from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free,” and that they really don’t understand what they are supporting. Another reason the left, perhaps especially those who do know what a “free Palestine” actually means, is supporting Hamas and other Islamist groups, is that the enemy of my enemy is my friend, and that they see Israel as an ally of Western institutions which they want destroyed. The final reason the left supports Palestine here is antisemitism in general which many have openly displayed by attacks on Jews in the US and abroad, Jews who have nothing to do with this conflict. I understand that the state of war existing now in the Middle East is fueling resentment between Palestinians and Israelis. This is the problem of the common man. But if the solution to that is “free Palestine” as the Palestinian governments want, then the end will be worse than current the situation because it will mean no freedom and no Jews or Christians or atheists there at all, no women’s rights at all, death to the alphabet. If the left supports Palestine simply because they want better living conditions, then they had best attack the people running the government there. They have misdiagnosed the illness and so apply the wrong drug. They should use their freedom to critically examine the actual texts Islam uses to make its claims and its governments.
Best response in this comments!
The left also wants a totalitarian state, and they might like Islam's approval of pedophilia.
The base reflex to side with the most dangerous ppl is at work as well. When they play victim you can even feel heroic in your cynicism.
You do know there are Palestinian christians living in gaza.their church was bombed by the idf remember?maybe they thought it was hamas headquarters lol.there are different kinds of moslem..just as there are different kinds of christian...right.not all of them fly planes into buildings.i am not a fan of.religion in general.. buti am old enough to remember the IRA ....fellow christians...and their bombing campaigns.doubt they were very woke either.my point is that every religion has its nutters...have you seen the idf and zionist tiktoks.if you havent..check them out.. very illuminating!
I think the "elite" loves it when we do this left vs right thing. Dividing instead of uniting people.
In my experience most disagreements come from dishonesty.
As long as people are being honest, they tend to agree a lot more than you'd expect.
And you'd also find that people tend to be more honest face to face than online.
Aaron Bastani presupposes there is no difference between the 2 flags. WRONG!
Tony Cliff was indeed born to Jewish parents in Palestine in 1917.
Excellent program, all very interesting and nicely laid out by everyone. I think James Lindsay was particularly equitable in how he presented his views. Great stuff guys, thanks.
Funny cos he’s an absolute nutcase on twitter
@@tevildo45 Aren't most?
@@tevildo45Lindsay is brilliant though bitingly witty. Sorry you can’t discern intellect from insanity.
@toolegit2quit173 I’m sorry you can’t discern wit from stupidity.
@@tevildo45thats cause he is trolling mfers on twitter. he talks openly about it.
Here's a ChatGPT summary:
- War erupts in the Middle East, with culture war parallels in the West.
- The political left often aligns with Palestine, sometimes Hamas; the right aligns with Israel.
- The conversation shifted from statehood and religious destiny to culture war dynamics.
- James Lindsey, a writer, discusses the woke left's identification with Hamas and Palestinian side.
- Lindsey traces intellectual lineage from communist liberation to Palestinian Liberation Project.
- The Palestinian Liberation Organization (PLO) and Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP) had Marxist-Leninist roots.
- PFLP was a USSR-Marxist-Leninist project to counter Western influence post-1948 Israel establishment.
- Arab sympathy for Nazis in the 1930s led to Nazi propaganda targeting Arabs.
- European philosophy influenced Arab thought, including fascism, communism, and Nazism.
- Post-colonial thinkers like Frantz Fanon and Edward Said influenced Arab and Palestinian liberation ideology.
- Hamas, splintering from the Muslim Brotherhood, incorporated these intellectual currents.
- The left's solidarity with Palestinian liberation movements dates back decades.
- The U.S. Democratic base supports Palestine, but political leaders balance this with American commitments.
- Protests in the U.S. and UK echo Black Lives Matter movements, focusing on liberation for oppressed peoples.
- Lindsey sees parallels between Hamas's worldview and woke ideas, both emphasizing liberation from oppression.
- Aaron Bastani, a Marxist political analyst, provides his perspective on the left's support for Palestine.
- Bastani notes the historical support for Israel from the USSR and British Arabism.
- The shift in left support is attributed to the SWP's influence and Britain's colonial history.
- Bastani argues that Israel's military power and high living standards contrast with Gaza's conditions.
- Bastani criticizes the left for failing to recognize Jewish people as victims of racism.
- Both guests discuss the importance of free speech and the dangers of extreme solutions.
- Bastani highlights the potential refugee crisis from Gaza and criticizes conservative foreign policy.
- Lindsey and Bastani find common ground on several issues, despite differing political views.
Main message:
- The discussion explores the complex reasons behind the political left's support for Palestine and the right's support for Israel, touching on historical, ideological, and contemporary factors, while emphasizing the importance of free speech and cautioning against extreme responses.
This is what happens when you get two people who know their shit, and are both educated in what is happening and not just spouting talking points, and understand the complexities and nuances. Normal people can see this is absolutely f**ked driven by people who are emotionally invested and have endured some suffering and want to see the other side gone. There is good and bad and extreme on both sides. The rest of us watch on in horror and wonder if this will ever be sorted.
Also never underestimate the wests ability to remain top dog and use people as pawns for the expansion of their empire.
😢 I feel for all the innocent lives lost. I hope for peace and stability, but for as long as human history has recorded there has and will always be those who want to conquer and rule. 🤷♀️
James Lindsey is a 💎
A thinker can condemn both Hamas and the deadly Israeli response
How should they respond? How else should they get rid of Hamas?
@@sivannatalie by not killing civilians, children, rescue workers
@@aaronbcoleeasier said than done.
28:00 "life, liberty, property" but not for the Palestinians, apparently.
The question could also be: "Why does the right support Israel?"
And: who are the dissident leftists who support Israel and who are the dissidents rightists who do not?
The real right opposes theocracy, pedophilia, slavery, censorship and tribal conquest, which are the heart of Islam.
See Robert Spencer.
Lots of these French philosophers have another thing in common when it comes to age of consent
Evil exceeds politi6
What a fascinating debate. I was surprised about how much common ground there was. Refreshing and, honestly, leaves me with a very hopeful outlook.
Great discussion, excellently hosted by Freddie - thank you! 🙏 Enjoy your beer and singing of peace songs :)
What a delightful surprise Aaron Bastani is. I argue with leftists on the regular and I don't think I've ever seen anyone so simultaneously reasonable and informed. More like him please.
America Britain and Palestine are occupied by the same power.
The WEF, IMF etc.?
Great discussion. Thanks Freddie
Its good to see an intelligent dialogue with some agreement on salient issues. Well done.
I loved watching this. Thank you thank you thank you for being the adults in the room. I took something from both sides
freddie misunderstands Lindsay on nearly every point, and insinuating that he is contributing to the extreme right wing by merely showcasing facts is just insane.
I believe it's because he has little understanding to what has been going on in the United States.
I caught that also.
Thats easy to do. Because as far as I can make out, Lindsay said nothing at all really
that normally happens when you dont understand it either.@@proselytizingorthodoxpente8304
@@ReeTM Lindsay OTOH seems to have little understanding of what is (and especially has) happened outside the US....
Watching this video and then scrolling through many comments has made me feel so much better. Thoughtful, fact-based debate from two VERY different individuals that never ever came anywhere close to antagonism. Calm moderation of the debate. Great stuff. As a ageing slightly left of centre (in American terms) liberal hippie, the lurch to the far left and far right in politics over the course of my lifetime, especially in the last 20 years or so, has been dispiriting. The woke movement and its leaders seem every bit as nasty and self-righteous as the MAGA brigade (and its European or global equivalents). Why oh why don't we have firmly centrist political movements that surely represent the majority in almost every western democracy?
The reason we don't have centrist, or to use a better term, reasonable political movements anymore, is that facts don't matter.
Think of Covid-19 policies, which in the US & Canada have degenerated into a political religious cult. Everywhere in Europe the new boosters are only advised to those with health problems or age >60 to 65 years. But in the US they are advised to everyone >6 MONTHS of age. That is, even babies should get the jab. Surely this disparity between US and EU Covid-19 policies has nothing to do with science.
Same with masking, which has become an American anti-science obsession.
Turning to the Israel-Arab conflict, it is essential to note that this has its roots in a notorious European-Jews conflict, better known as European antisemitism. So Europeans are to blame, not Arabs.
In the European Holocaust the victims were Europeans, the perpetrators were Europeans, the collaborators were Europeans, the bystanders were Europeans, and the rather limited resistance fighters were Europeans.
The Negroes in Africa had nothing to do with it. The Eskimos in the north had nothing to do with it. The Indians with their bowler hats in Bolivia had nothing to do with it. The Aboriginals in Australia had nothing to do with it. The Arabs had nothing to do with it. And the Palestinians had nothing to do with it. They all didn't do it. White Europeans did it.
White Europeans will never forgive the Palestinians for NOT killing the Jews. Hence the continuous, toxic, hysterical barrage of screaming propaganda lies.
Facts don't matter.
Our U.S. Founding fathers were stupid. They wrote the Constitution on freedom of religion when it should have been freedom of religion but Islamic. Could you imagine if I form a new religion with my book's guidelines is to kill the Amish? I would be arrested. Muslim's Koran is a book that says kill the infidels. New Testament doesn't have "kill the unbelievers". We should amend the U.S. Constitution. Kick Islam out!!!
James Lindsey is pro negative rights stemming from the idea of a soul (aka bible),William blackstone and the Magna Carta. While against Gnosticism and dialectical thought necessary for nazism and all socialist and Marxist beliefs.
Because centrist political movements don't represent the majority in almost every western democracy. They represent the establishment's interests in maintaining the status quo for itself, and are not a genuine movement driven by the populace.
What's nasty about strong borders, better trade deals, the return of manufacturing?
43:00 The concept of "solidarity" should ALWAYS be personal, it should NEVER be a corporate policy.
A nuanced and fulsome discussion- lots of food for thought here. Thank you!
3 mature and emotionally developed humans discuss acute societal issues ..successfully.
I wish this was extended for 2 more debates, at least.
Thank you very much for this.
(Kudos from Portugal)
You forget to say the huge. Muslim immigration into the Western has a lot to do with what is going on in the Western World right now.
oh you mean Western wars against Muslims creates Muslim migration? Who could think that!
I think this shows we need a 3 hour discussion with these two. Also, the moderator is top tier.
The first truly intellectual debate on the issue I have heard since October 7th, and maybe ever.
Well done James! And Thank You
most people I encounter may or may not support a side, but they all feel that American tax money should not fund either side of this conflict.
The problem isnt just that American tax money has funded one side, but that it's funded that one side with very few conditions... making Israel think they can do what they want... with really bad outcomes.
@@dellwright1407 america funds both sides, heavily.
that doesn't matter. neither side should be funded by American tax money.
@@Reggieeeeeeee322 America funds a small amount of humanitarian aid for Palestinians and a massive amount for Israel military. With no conditions at all... with has only lead to furthering settlements in the occupied territories. It's a disaster.
Humanity, empathy, decency. There's you're answer.
❤ James Lindsay. I am so grateful for his work. Great podcast!
The name Unherd originally made me think it was a super-reactionary, "anyone who disagrees with me is a sheep" type channel. How wrong I was. You guys produce some of the best and most thoughtful content on UA-cam, and Freddie is an excellent host, always willing to probe in a respectful way and extract meaningful answers from his guests. Thanks for what you do!
I suspect that it is based in that kind of theme, just more generally applied. There are herds of all sorts, the modern tribes, that we should all try to think outside of.
At the 27th minute James came up with a brilliant point. After the Russian revolution, the Germans feared the rise of communism in Germany. A violent attempt to take over the Reichstag in Berlin in 1918, led by the Spartacus League, which was headed by Rosa Luxembourg led to the formation of the Brown shirts to take on the Communists and later the Nazis. The rise of the Left is usually greeted by a growth in the right. This also occurred in France, where the Left's regime of Terror led to opposition from the masses and the middle class, eventually leading to Napoleon and his reign.
Out of the 3 major fascist powers in WW2 2 of them did not have any significant far left movement that preceded the far rights rise to power. I dont think its deeply related.
@@Mezzo396 Let us begin with Germany. The communists garnered 17% of the vote in Germany's elections of 1932. The Spartacus League (Communists) attacked the Reichstag and took over a number of government buildings in 1918, sparking fears of a Soviet inspired revolution.
As for Italy, from 1919 to 1920, Italy was shocked by a period of intense social conflict following the First World War known as the Biennio Rosso (Red Biennium). The revolutionary period was followed by the violent reaction of the Fascist Blackshirt militia and eventually by the March on Rome of Benito Mussolini in 1922.
That is two, now which country is the third, let us see.
Is it the Soviet Union? Well, that is a no brainer.
Is it Spain, again this country saw a surge in Communist Soviet backed activities, Franco was the far-right response.
Are you speaking of Romania?
I suspect you mean Japan. Japan also experienced a growth in their Communist party as well as fears that the Soviet Union which was making moves on Japanese possessions in Mongolia.
So, there are the two obvious one's, Germany and Italy, as well as a number of lesser fascist powers. Japan btw was led by an emperor, thus not textbook fascist.
@@Wawi633 whoever on the left fails to see this, is by definition a ‘useful idiot’.
There was no “left” during the time of Napoleon.
Do you seriously have so little education in history?
French Revolution was against monarchy 😣
@@Wawi633 Well, the Emperor was, and is, a figurehead. But Hideki Tojo was undoubtedly a fascist.
The long lasting damages of French postmodernism.
Bastani, I’m grateful you were willing to talk. I think it’s undeniable that few who hold similar beliefs to you are willing to engage with dissenting viewpoints
I really appreciated this.. It's so reassuring to see thoughtful angles from different 'camps' on one channel in these difficult times. Thanks to you all!
By the way, the Soviet Union initially supported Israel, but started switching sides in the mid 1950s.
Well the reason is so obvious SU saw that as betrayal and backstab from the part of Israel as they wanted to be very careful as new born country and cold war has just began, their people just escaped the the monstrous Nazi, and they can't afford it that the people should go through another war between these giants of the world. Israel simply wanted to nurture and build and develop her own newly independent country, to let it take its own form, not influenced or under the influence or control of others iterests or taking state patron which SU expected them to be under SU patron. SU only interesr was Israel to be its proxy and ally there in the middle east. As SU thought newbabyborn state of Israel should be nurtured by its power while Israel decided to be aelf determinimg their own state, they want to run their own household. SU was so disappointed by that. Red army liberated the Jews from concentration camps, help voting in UN to have their own state, and even in 48 war helping them to purchase weapon as at the time even U.S have banned Israel to be able to buy weapon to defend themselves. And SU had such an expectation on Israel which for Israel look liked a subtle demand.
So SU turned its back right away and thus treated Israel as the enemy of left cause (SU communism) and then started to support all arab nations that wanted to see Israel's destruction. It wasn't anti-semitism that driven the left hatred, but anti-semitism took form and materialised as a result of so many propagandas against Israel. Of course the anti-semitism was one manifestation of relugious hatred against them from the part of their arabs that rulled by religious fascists groups that wanted Jews to be annihilated and they should never have a state of their own. But the main reason is the arabs neighboring countries just see Israel as western entity that pose threat to them, they fear the forming of Israel and the coming of Jews from all.over western world will be threat to their statusquo as the sole influence (pan-arabism) in the region, so they call these Jews immigrants as colonialists and the state of Israel as a colonialist state ni matter how untrue that is, those tyrants leaders words are god's voice for their people, whatever they say are truth to be believed in. And thats exactly what SU looking for as allies even when they hate their religious ideologies SU see them as good allies sharing same enemy.
Really genuinely interesting on both sides. Well done Freddy and co.!
Where does the USA stand on the funding of Hamas by Israel?
Intellectually challenging discussion, but refreshing to watch an actual civilused debate
This is the content I crave - dispassionate rational debate on the crux of our zeitgeist.
Lindsay doesn't actually answer Freddie's excellent question about Israeli nationalism being just another identitarian ideology, he just starts waffling on about Hegel and the US Constitution.
Yep.
Maybe the answer is under his MAGA hat? :-)
Of course jews can't have their own nation which funnyly enough is also their historical homeland. arabs which invaded that land centuries ago should establish their own country as the 23rd arab state. Also all other middle eastern states are in no way nationalist & islamically theocratic. Only Israel should be criticised, which is the great logic of the left
Nationalism is an ideological identity, but it is not part of the ideology called identitarism, aka wokeism
@MrParedex You do know national is just being proud of where you're from right?
I was initially puzzled why so many communists left channels turned towards Palestine side. Then in one recent video I seen them describing Palestinian movement as a communist movement because PLO of Yaser Arafat was "communist". This is so unbelievably lazy , because they have been not since 1970s. In fact there is nothing even remotely resembling any left ideology or idea. And its easy to say its quite the contrary - every idea they have counter left.
They are hard core religious - check , they oppress women - check , They are (murderously) anti gay - check , they are feudal capitalist - check ... Any and everything left hates, they do. Except...except..Antisemitism ... Bingo - here is where they align big time.
This is why I am no longer leftist - since this eye opening moment
Really really appreciate how civil and focused this was, could truly hear and think clearly about the arguments without the shouting