Hmm. My comments that merely quote the Quran keep getting deleted. Let's try again: Quran 9:29: "Fight those who do not believe in Allah and the Last Day, nor comply with what Allah and His Messenger have forbidden, nor embrace the religion of truth from among those who were given the Scripture, until they pay the tax [the special tax for non-Muslism] willingly submitting, fully humbled."
Quran was revealed to the prophet Mohammed pbuh. It had direct impact to his circumstance at the time. You have to look at the time period of revelation to understand the context. Merely quoting the translation isn't sufficient
Yes, very clear. I have read the Quran in Arabic and can say that it is written in a very simple - almost simplistic - and straightforward manner, it was written so that even illiterate bedouins could understand it and memorize it. Just like all the other holy books, you don't need scholars to explain the texts but rather to justify the many contradictions and weird teachings that even the simplest of minds struggles to accept.
Jebara is an enlightened reconciliatory Muslim, but he is in the minority and he is an apologist as well, glossing over Islam and Quran. The Quran is full of ambiguity and vagaries, that is why it can be manipulated to promote terrorism or to promote peace and cooperation. You can blame it on the lack of understanding for the Quranic Arabic language but what matters is the outcome. Jebara has his own version of Islam, alas, not the Islam billions of Muslim adopt. That is why mysticism, religions and what believers regard as sacred texts are best kept as things that do belong to the past and should be regarded obsolete. No room for that anachronistic concepts in a modern rational society. Reason, rationality, science and objectivism will serve us better.
And within the Islamic Tradition, any Imam's intepretation is essentially equally valid. Its a very egalitarian concept but, as you pointed out, can also be used and manipulated to justify pretty henious acts.
You said "modern rational society " I was always amazed when Hitchens had such faith that humans would invent another better religion that would replace these older religions. Are humans capable? There is no god so man made god now man wants to be God. What would that look like?
This is not true. In sunni Islam, there is a concept called ijma- meaning consensus. Majority opinions take precedence, outlying opinions are automatically discredited as outliers @@occhams1
sorry but terrorism is not an islam issue. its israhell and usa comitting genocide now in gaza and occupied Palestine and russias war with Ukraine. horros of holocaust by christian/ secular europeans and nazis and ww1 2 ,vietnam ,korea banana republic wars all faught in the name of secularism or christian or jewish names. and now the scapegoat of muslims is used to justify invasion and war of terror ( a never ending war profiteering) so please study more before you just puppet what the corrupt media and zionist and anti islamic rhetoric
@@21972012145525laughable! Majority consensus? Then why do you need the word of any god or gods? If it's ALL a matter of interpretation, then you prove that your scripture is not divine!😊
I admire so much Michael's patience and dignity with this guest speaker. I'm an atheist myself but I do understand that I have been programmed in my culture with religious beliefs so it is important to understand the history in order to understand why we do the things we do.
I greatly respect you, Michael I wish that you gave more direct pushback. You are very subtle in your disagreement. Those who are fans of yours will get how much you’re disagreeing, but I don’t know if your guests really feel like you have disagreed with them.
I enjoyed several parts of Mohamad Jebara's elucidations on Mohamed, the Koran and the history and development of Islam. I am an atheist myself and have had the pleasure to work over several years in both South Yemen and Tunisia. I have found the people in general to be very welcoming. Mr. Jebara's mission, to focus on and reintroduce the goodly essence of the revelation of the Prophet Mohamed for todays followers, seems very positive to me.
I've been reading his biography, I'm about halfway through and just got to the marriage to Ayesha. Now I'm poking around the internet looking for justification for Jebara's claim that she was age 29 when married, which is the oldest age I have ever heard. The notes in the back of the book do not go into any detail explaining how he arrived at that number, but he repeats the claim that all the numerous hadiths claiming she was a young child are based on a "senile" narrator who was simply confused. Not at all convincing.
From a psychological/evolutionary perspective, yes. Like why does it not exist? Is there an inherent impulse? Can it manifest politically; is this the same impulse that makes people join cults? And so on.
I’m an atheist and studied comparative religion to try and understand my fellow humans. When he mentions that the Koran believes and mentions Moses and Jesus and Mary, it is THE perfect example of syncretism in which a ‘new’ religion borrows from the current or past religions in order to validate and promote the new religion. What I mean is that religion just as culture, evolves out of another religion. There are many many examples, for this for instance, Christian holidays overlap the European traditional indigenous religions. The idea of Jesus sacrificing himself was familiar to the people at the time because sacrifice rituals had gone back centuries before. I’m interested in religion in its historical and cultural and anthropological context.
@@scarba I have studied world religions too. And mythology. They are all framed on one single template. That is why they are similar. Myth and religions all share that same template. The template is based on the life of a human and is mentally interactive once interpreted. It is The Buddha's path, but nested in a genre that provides Big brother as religion, or adventure such as Greek Myth. It's conceptual. See if you can spot this pattern in the background. Moses from Exodus and Jason from the Greek Argonautica. 1. Chosen - Both singled out as children and saved 2. Cyclical pain - Phineas's food is defiled daily by the harpies and he gets no relief. Plagues rock Egypt and they get no relief. 3. Struggle to leave past - Jason and Island of Old Gods. Moses and Pharaoh. Both leave, but are then chased after. 4. Supernatural aid - Jason gets help from Goddesses along the way. Moses gets his magical staff on Mt Horeb. 5. Crossing the Threshold - Jason sails through the Clashing Rocks with aid from a goddess. Moses runs through the Red Sea with Gods help. They both barely make it. Etc. They are huge. Think modern media from 2,000 plus years ago. These can all be dissected. I've been working at interpretation full time for several years now. They shake out to that template, which is a path to enlightenment carried in a thousand different looking boxes or Arks. Many carry, few see inside. It's metaphor. 100%. Marduk, Moses, Arjuna, Jason, Job, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, Jesus, King Arthur, The Buddha, Lao Tzu, and many more are all framed on one template packaged differently. They all require interpretation, but it is a simple process. The interpretation plays out in the psyche and only for the one who both finds and uses the template. Lets say I have something unresolved from my past. We know these bother us, cycle out, get triggered, and hurt our life if we can become that aware. So, I am hanging on to a memory that hurts me. This will fit into cycles of pain. I can nest my message by saying, "An anchored ship cannot sail free." The parts of the verse are analogs for me. I am the ship. My unresolved issues is the anchor. I am not free of it as long as I remain anchored or rather, leave it unresolved. So, cycles of pain are part of the lessons and they hide them like this, 1. Buddha - If a man has had an evil thought, pain follows like the wheel of the ox that draws the carriage. 2. Lao Tzu - Caught in desire, you see only the manifestations. 3. Moses - You will continue to have increasing pain in childbirth. 4. Jesus - Do not judge or you will be judged in the same manner. They are all analogous and all interpret in the psyche to the same place once we finish working it through our minds. They are all cause and effect based in a memory and unresolved emotional state. Then we flow in a collective in life based on the quality of what we harbor in our sub-conscious mind. Forgiving the aught against our brother and having rewards in secret as a result alludes to this. That's like casting off the anchor. It's all word play. All of it. Jesus was called as the only son of God, had supernatural power, traveled with hand picked disciples and seeks the Kingdom of Heaven Within. Arthur was called as the only one who could get Excalibur, had Merlin for supernatural power, traveled with hand picked knights and seeks the Holy Grail. Not many can read between the lines and see something in the background. You're seeing it.
@@scarba It's critically important to note, all the terms are analogous. Desire does not mean conscious desire. It means I have something I am not letting go of. An evil thought is not conscious thinking. It is what I harbor that is evil to my life. I may have been a victim but the anger I hold is the evil. Like that. Naked means uncovered. We start in Eden as self aware kids, happy, no issues. First sin represents naming, judging or just having normal judged life. It will now hurt when it emerges but we got covered right after sin. It represents hiding something inside. We are covered, when being naked is desired as an analog. It's why Noah was buzzed off his wine and naked after the flood. That's us on a cleansing or healing journey. We feel good and have removed a cover. But our other parts, called our children but are further iterations of us, covers us back up. It's a journey, not a step. It is many steps. The Bible rolls through these templates in this verbal clue manner. When we turn inward to heal, there will be few of us, (called) it will be due to cyclical pain, we will struggle to leave it behind, we must have knowledge of how to mentally interact with our memories for healing, (Think psychology, self imposed, guided by the nested steps in the stories? And cross the threshold or turn into the narrow gate. We turn inward. Rumi - I have been standing on the lip of insanity, knocking, knocking. The door opens. I have been knocking from the inside. It's all there in the background for anyone who can break through the puzzles. It has to be well known in secret. It is incredibly prevalent.
Always fascinating that apparently rational and intelligent people believe in fairy tales...and poor Michael has to take the irrational belief seriously 🕉 ✡ ☪️ ✝️
@@phukrnd840 Even many eminent scientists (Nobel Prize winners no less) profess a belief in supernatural belief, i.e. religion. There seems to be something deep in the human psyche that almost compels belief in most people.
@@jonnieinbangkok there was a paper written once by some college professor about how the biggest threat to our society is actually stupid people and our inability to recognize them. They are well educated and in respected positions with alot of power in society.. stupid is by no means a limit to a person's level of success or achievement..
@@theinnerlight8016 Have you never watched one of the *dozens* of God debates Shermer has engaged in? He's pretty vocal about it. I don't think he viewed this particular podcast as a good venue to do so, as he was mainly discussing the author's new book.
@@fullmatthew I have seen some of his debates. He's no Christopher Hitchens though, but his books are great. If he doesn't criticize the scourge of humanity, that is Islam, he's basically giving the Imam advertising space. He did the same thing with that crazy feminist lately. If you don't like it, that I don't appreciate this not very sceptical way of Shermer recently, that's too bad.
Why is "cutting parts of your genitals off because it's slightly more difficult to clean than your face" still considered rational? Just because it's not as invasive as female genital mutilation, it's still genital mutilation with adverse effects on sensitivity. It's really not difficult to learn how to clean it.
such people are laughable because? do you understand hadith and tafsir and sciences of the Quran. Or do you laugh because you dont understand much? or do you pretend to know everything and laugh because you think it’s impossible for God to exist? Why do you laugh ?
@@phukrnd840 its more than what you think my friend they devoured philosophy logic literature and scientific method because the quran commands people to learn. the quranic scholars developed systematic rules for proper interpretation( exegesis )and learning from quran, they developed from the quran grammatical knowledge, and then structured the language to enable free thought and a vast vocabulary. They practiced proof based knowledge and reasoning based on injunctions in quran. learn about the holden age ehen the west were up in trees burning women for learning the islamic enterprise emancipated them. Anyways ignorance can be bliss so its up to you to learn or rant
@@phukrnd840 I'll second that. But in my experience in directly talking to, or debating them right here on youtube, is that most religious people are completely cemented into their faith--and to such an extent that there is no rational discussion to be had. I had thought about directly challenging this fellow as you did. But, that impulse lasted about .2 seconds. There is no point in most instances in debating people who make these kinds of comments. Belief in a deity and devotion to an ideology are powerful drivers of behavior and a person's world view.
Female circumcision is OK in Islam -- so long as it's not "too severe": "A woman used to perform circumcision in Medina. The Prophet (ﷺ) said to her: Do not cut severely as that is better for a woman and more desirable for a husband." This is a "sahih" (valid) hadith.
Female circumcision is extremely rare in non Arab/African Muslims, suggesting it's a cultural phenomenon predating Islam. I actually don't know anyone who is circumcised, but have heard it's more common among Somali/yemeni populations. Male circumcision is mandatory
I've never heard a Muslim speak either about or of the prophet Muhammad and NOT say; "...peace and blessings be with him..." in Arabic or rarely English 😮!
Love this channel and the magazine but I would have liked harder hitting questions. Also, I didn't think the guest answered anything, rather he just skirted around the subject matter.
He has written two books. He can not academically survive writing something historically wrong and come up his own version of Islam. As a matter of fact he is planning for a third book. Get rid of bias and search for truth.
@@AzurBlue-b5y He is an absolute deviant and did indeed make up his own version of Islam. I knew him personally me and my family and we actually cut all contact with him. Anybody can make a book these days trying to attempt to refute lets say Islam, though the book is totally wrong.
Muslims believe Arabic is a holy language, thus the revelation of Quran in Arabic. The Quran and Arabic is quoted throughout physical prayer (salah) and dua (prayer in the Christian sense of asking God ). Every letter recited, let alone memorized, is a form of salvation and erasure of sins.
This episode should more accurately have been called "No True Scotsman: Islam Edition". I assume Jebara is accurately quoting things, and that his entire interpretation of everything in the Quran is perfectly reasonable, but also not widely accepted by his fellow travelers in the Muslim world. While I certainly wish that ALL adherents to Islam shared Jebara's version of the faith, seeing as they don't, I think the problem with his brand of peace-love-and-understanding liberal religious types is that they provide cover for all of the abortion clinic bombers and suicide bombing jihadists. They say "No secular world, it'd be wrong to try to get people to stop believing in nonsense, we just need to ensure that people believe in the fairytales the RIGHT WAY… Ya know, MY way. Since I'm the one who has it all figured out, and everyone doing bad things based on our religion is just misinterpreting it!" Maybe he's right. Maybe they are. But like… Where does that leave us?
ITS HARD TO HOLD MY LAUGH HOW SHERMER CAN MANAGE TO DO IT . ITS CLEARLY IMAM GET UNCOMFORTABLE TO BACK WHAT HE AND OTHER MUSLIMS BELIEVES IN THIS NONSENSE
Jebara can keep his Qur'an. I read it once and that was quite enough. It's as false & uninsppired as the Bible is. Jesus and Muhammad both were failed prophets. (Ex-Catholic agnostic-atheist here.)
It seems Mohamad Jebara is a good guy. A nicely Westernized Muslim appreciating Western values, having a cool haircut with no scary beard covering his handsome face. Unfortunately, his (heavily cherry-picked-good-feel) message won't carry any weight in mainstream Islam. As an explicit atheist myself, I wish him all the best for his project to tame the monsters/haters of his cult. 😂
This is the before listening comment, I will update it after I've listened too. Here's what I know about Quran. It's divided into two parts, part one is tolerant, permissive and kind, written before Mohammed became powerful, it's also called, the "before exodus". Part two, extremely intolerant, violent and forbidding, written after Mohammed became an extremely powerful dictator. I also heard that while Quran forbids silly things like pork, there's not a single word at least condemning slavery, let alone forbidding it. Let's hear it now 😃
That is incorrect. However, yes the Quran was revealed throughout the life of the prophet Mohammed pbuh and thus it is important to analyze it in context of revealation if you're attempting to understand Islam. Pork is forbidden because it's considered unclean meat. No different than Judaism or Christianity, no?
At any point where Michael brought up the unethical practices or common behaviors of Islamic states, Jebara would just say that they denounce the practice and those people don't know the Qur'an. This is a ridiculous defense because at no point does it actually challenge why these practices are in place and, while maybe uncommon, only occur in Islamic states. It's an embarrassing denial of the reality their society imposes on women and opposing religions.
Yes, Michael let himself down by indulging this no doubt well meaning man by failing to raise the key issues in belief. Hard to respect the act of devoting one’s life to the purveying of such nonsense. So this humble and illiterate man is spoken to by an angel and scribes write down what he says and 1.4 billion people believe they know the meaning of life - AS hitch said “Do me a favour”.
At around 58 minutes, the guest graciously admits, that yes languages evolve and without proper context, has little to no meaning, and hence left open to interpretation. Funny how that's true for every, and any, holy scripture ever written. Not very original and par for the course.
Nice that you brought a muslim. Now bring in a Rabbi to talk about their beliefs. Questions like what is the Messiah should be interesting. Also what is Amelik that Netanyahu spoke of?
Oh yes, only my specific group of Muslims or Jews or Christians knows how to read our holy book the correct way everyone else that does terrible things in the name of my God and my holy book is just misunderstanding it. But this is not a problem with the holy book or my God, who has a God should have been able to be super clear and make sure that there was a book or way to get his message or her message across so that no one misunderstands it, and does evil in the name of that God no it is not God‘s fault. It’s the individuals fault.
He seemed more intent on promoting his books than addressing the questions. Strange that the father of Mohammad, chosen by god, should die before he was born and his mother a few years later leaving him an orphan. The earliest known bio was written approx 130 years after his death so one has to wonder about its accuracy. All the good practises in the Qur'an that he describes are just common sense ones that do not need some religious envelope. I've always wondered why a creator of this unimaginably vast universe should want the adoration of a bunch of evolved, smelly apes ( think farting, deficating, sweating, bad breath etc), suffering from literally thousands of physical and mental ailments and living in a insignificant rocky sphere, invisible from any of the billions of other galaxies.
Well, I may be boasting here a bit, but I think that my farts are rather, ahem, heavenly smelling! Strangely, no one within nose-shot of my perturbations ever agrees with me on this point. People just don't get me. Maybe I'll start a religion.....and one day be interviewed by Shermer. I'll fart into the microphone as a form of prayer or a blessing. On a serious note, I am a bit puzzled by Shermer for interviewing this particular fellow. I could not even get through the whole discussion. It was hardly worth even that small amount of time I listened in, and it certainly was not worthy of a Shermer interview. I'm disappointed.
Is this a joke? 130 years after his death?! LOL. Do you not know about the hadiths of the prophet on how he prayed, and how he slept (we even know what his pillow was like, and what type of meat did he like to eat). And u here say that he comes in 130 years after him? LOL. There isn't any person who is more heavily documented in the history of humanity, more than prophet Muhammad. From the hundreds of thousands of hadiths talking about everything about him, how many wives he had, how many children he had, what he liked to eat, what he enjoyed drinking, how he looked physically, etc...
At 29:38, Muhammad (i.e., Shermer's guest) talks about how the Qu'ran affirms life with "whoever kills a soul ... it is as if he had slain mankind entirely" Well, the "..." is doing a lot of work here. This is the full text of that passage translated by Maududi: """ Therefore We ordained for the Children of Israel that he who slays a soul unless it be (in punishment) for murder or for spreading mischief on earth shall be as if he had slain all mankind; and he who saves a life shall be as if he had given life to all mankind. And indeed again and again did Our Messengers come to them with clear directives; yet many of them continued to commit excesses on earth. """ Note that for many, "spreading mischief" definitely includes acting against Islam, as should be evident from the last sentence of the passage. A fair reading of the text suggests a Manichean view of the world, and is very much "an eye-for an eye".
Actually, I don't think Harris would have even bothered. I'm honestly puzzled why Shermer even bothered with this fellow. I tried to be open minded, but I could not even finish listening to the whole discussion. It seemed somewhat out of place for someone like Shermer to do, and as much as I tried to take an interest, I had heard more than my fill. I suppose it's because I am so done with religion in any form.
Mr Shermer is first and foremost a businessman. This was nothing more than a paid advertisement, the guest paid for the interview to shill his book. He dodged every question and started the conversation with the No True Scotsman Fallacy, "oh they weren't true muslims." If muslims are peaceful, then why didn't he, or any Muslim, outright condemn their actions! Don't EVER forget Charlie Hebdo 😢
What is killing me how apologists hide the truth and change subject. I don’t care Sharia word root came from water or rock or dirt. What is important how inhumane is cutting peoples hand for stealing a bread for hunger or stoning young girls to death for falling in love
If someone is hungry and the society or state has not provided the opportunity to earn then it is not allowed by Sharia to cut the hands of a thief. Try to learn and ask people before making an opinion.
@@AzurBlue-b5y look at my name ht9xg4….. Don’t tell me I don’t know about Sharia. I certainly know more than you. I lived through it. Have you ever seen stoning videos of Taliban? You are in your fantasy Reality is something else
If you wan't to know the truth about scientology, ask a scientologist. If you want to know the truth about Mormonism ask a Mormon. If you want to know the truth about Islam ask a Muslim. Anyone else see something wrong with this?
Interesting. But this guy is saying nothing different than any other religion which is “No, no. We are really good. It’s not supposed to be that way.” The problem is religion; all religions produce fanatics and destroy reason.
So do not listen or trust this guy. But search for truth in an unbiased manner. Try to find out 1. From where we have come. 2. What is our purpose in this world. 3. Where we are going after this world. Answer to these questions is important for us.
@@AzurBlue-b5y 1. We evolved by natural selection like all other living things on this planet. 2. Asking what is our purpose is the wrong question. You should be asking what is our function as conscious, modern apes. 3. When we die, we rot and our minds cease to exist. We are material beings that become recycled nutrients for the planet.
If Muhammad was illiterate, how come when he was on his deathbed he called for writing material to set down his final words so his followers wouldn’t go astray? He didn’t call for scribes.
Seems like a nice guy but, cherry picks/omits/abbreviates the Koran e.g. Surah 5:32 where he omits the part about corruption and he does not really answer the hard questions IMHO but, ultimately talking ûnsin from West Frisian, onzin from Dutch and old English unsense and from modern English, nonsense.
@@fullmatthew You wonder why the New Atheists attacked Islam so hard. Now we see they divided atheism between radical feminism/DEI/woke/Humus supporters and rationalists.
I've been reading his biography, I'm about halfway through and just got to the marriage to Ayesha. Now I'm poking around the internet looking for justification for Jebara's claim that she was age 29 when married, which is the oldest age I have ever heard. The notes in the back of the book do not go into any detail explaining how he arrived at that number, but he repeats the claim that all the numerous hadiths claiming she was a young child are based on a "senile" narrator who was simply confused. Not at all convincing. This interview left me with the impression that he has that young and enthusiastic "true believer" energy but without much ability to argue persuasively.
Now Michael is obligated to bring a historian on Islam to debunk this Guy
Oh please, this was nothing more than a paid advertisement. The guest paid for the spot to shill his book.😮
A little off topic may be, but I just wanna say that every time I see discussions about religion, I think of the great Christopher Hitchens
Peter Hitchens
Peter > Chris.
hitch is never off topic, more people need to know he existed
no idea what these other people are saying about peter THAT is off topic
@@Drunkbobnopantss Peter > Chris.
Who now totally believes in God.
This whole thing has been so cringeworthy. I think I can clench my face into a fist.
Greed knows NO bounds and Mr Shermer is no exception!
Congrats you just watched a paid advertisement.😊
Hmm. My comments that merely quote the Quran keep getting deleted. Let's try again:
Quran 9:29: "Fight those who do not believe in Allah and the Last Day, nor comply with what Allah and His Messenger have forbidden, nor embrace the religion of truth from among those who were given the Scripture, until they pay the tax [the special tax for non-Muslism] willingly submitting, fully humbled."
Quran was revealed to the prophet Mohammed pbuh. It had direct impact to his circumstance at the time. You have to look at the time period of revelation to understand the context. Merely quoting the translation isn't sufficient
@@21972012145525so are you implying that it does not fit well in this modern world?
@@21972012145525yes however this verse is still active. I haven’t heard that because it was written for that time, it has now been annulled.
You have to have condemnation of hate or violence for your quotation to not get deleted. Quotation without condemnation is just promotion.
Yes, very clear. I have read the Quran in Arabic and can say that it is written in a very simple - almost simplistic - and straightforward manner, it was written so that even illiterate bedouins could understand it and memorize it. Just like all the other holy books, you don't need scholars to explain the texts but rather to justify the many contradictions and weird teachings that even the simplest of minds struggles to accept.
Jebara is an enlightened reconciliatory Muslim, but he is in the minority and he is an apologist as well, glossing over Islam and Quran. The Quran is full of ambiguity and vagaries, that is why it can be manipulated to promote terrorism or to promote peace and cooperation. You can blame it on the lack of understanding for the Quranic Arabic language but what matters is the outcome.
Jebara has his own version of Islam, alas, not the Islam billions of Muslim adopt. That is why mysticism, religions and what believers regard as sacred texts are best kept as things that do belong to the past and should be regarded obsolete. No room for that anachronistic concepts in a modern rational society. Reason, rationality, science and objectivism will serve us better.
And within the Islamic Tradition, any Imam's intepretation is essentially equally valid. Its a very egalitarian concept but, as you pointed out, can also be used and manipulated to justify pretty henious acts.
You said "modern rational society " I was always amazed when Hitchens had such faith that humans would invent another better religion that would replace these older religions. Are humans capable? There is no god so man made god now man wants to be God. What would that look like?
This is not true. In sunni Islam, there is a concept called ijma- meaning consensus. Majority opinions take precedence, outlying opinions are automatically discredited as outliers @@occhams1
sorry but terrorism is not an islam issue. its israhell and usa comitting genocide now in gaza and occupied Palestine and russias war with Ukraine. horros of holocaust by christian/ secular europeans and nazis and ww1 2 ,vietnam ,korea banana republic wars all faught in the name of secularism or christian or jewish names. and now the scapegoat of muslims is used to justify invasion and war of terror ( a never ending war profiteering) so please study more before you just puppet what the corrupt media and zionist and anti islamic rhetoric
@@21972012145525laughable! Majority consensus? Then why do you need the word of any god or gods? If it's ALL a matter of interpretation, then you prove that your scripture is not divine!😊
I admire so much Michael's patience and dignity with this guest speaker. I'm an atheist myself but I do understand that I have been programmed in my culture with religious beliefs so it is important to understand the history in order to understand why we do the things we do.
You're programed by your culture. Your culture is programed by it's environment. If you dig you find Mother Earth is aptly named.
I greatly respect you, Michael I wish that you gave more direct pushback. You are very subtle in your disagreement. Those who are fans of yours will get how much you’re disagreeing, but I don’t know if your guests really feel like you have disagreed with them.
It's hard to be Skeptical about something that you reject at its most basic foundation.
I enjoyed several parts of Mohamad Jebara's elucidations on Mohamed, the Koran and the history and development of Islam. I am an atheist myself and have had the pleasure to work over several years in both South Yemen and Tunisia. I have found the people in general to be very welcoming. Mr. Jebara's mission, to focus on and reintroduce the goodly essence of the revelation of the Prophet Mohamed for todays followers, seems very positive to me.
You are not an atheist, you just think you are
I've been reading his biography, I'm about halfway through and just got to the marriage to Ayesha. Now I'm poking around the internet looking for justification for Jebara's claim that she was age 29 when married, which is the oldest age I have ever heard. The notes in the back of the book do not go into any detail explaining how he arrived at that number, but he repeats the claim that all the numerous hadiths claiming she was a young child are based on a "senile" narrator who was simply confused. Not at all convincing.
I appreciate that religious believers occasionally get featured on the show. Even as an atheist, I find religion endlessly fascinating.
From a psychological/evolutionary perspective, yes. Like why does it not exist? Is there an inherent impulse? Can it manifest politically; is this the same impulse that makes people join cults? And so on.
I’m an atheist and studied comparative religion to try and understand my fellow humans. When he mentions that the Koran believes and mentions Moses and Jesus and Mary, it is THE perfect example of syncretism in which a ‘new’ religion borrows from the current or past religions in order to validate and promote the new religion. What I mean is that religion just as culture, evolves out of another religion. There are many many examples, for this for instance, Christian holidays overlap the European traditional indigenous religions. The idea of Jesus sacrificing himself was familiar to the people at the time because sacrifice rituals had gone back centuries before. I’m interested in religion in its historical and cultural and anthropological context.
@@scarba I have studied world religions too. And mythology. They are all framed on one single template. That is why they are similar. Myth and religions all share that same template. The template is based on the life of a human and is mentally interactive once interpreted. It is The Buddha's path, but nested in a genre that provides Big brother as religion, or adventure such as Greek Myth. It's conceptual. See if you can spot this pattern in the background. Moses from Exodus and Jason from the Greek Argonautica.
1. Chosen - Both singled out as children and saved
2. Cyclical pain - Phineas's food is defiled daily by the harpies and he gets no relief. Plagues rock Egypt and they get no relief.
3. Struggle to leave past - Jason and Island of Old Gods. Moses and Pharaoh. Both leave, but are then chased after.
4. Supernatural aid - Jason gets help from Goddesses along the way. Moses gets his magical staff on Mt Horeb.
5. Crossing the Threshold - Jason sails through the Clashing Rocks with aid from a goddess. Moses runs through the Red Sea with Gods help. They both barely make it.
Etc.
They are huge. Think modern media from 2,000 plus years ago. These can all be dissected. I've been working at interpretation full time for several years now.
They shake out to that template, which is a path to enlightenment carried in a thousand different looking boxes or Arks. Many carry, few see inside. It's metaphor. 100%.
Marduk, Moses, Arjuna, Jason, Job, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, Jesus, King Arthur, The Buddha, Lao Tzu, and many more are all framed on one template packaged differently. They all require interpretation, but it is a simple process. The interpretation plays out in the psyche and only for the one who both finds and uses the template.
Lets say I have something unresolved from my past. We know these bother us, cycle out, get triggered, and hurt our life if we can become that aware. So, I am hanging on to a memory that hurts me. This will fit into cycles of pain. I can nest my message by saying, "An anchored ship cannot sail free." The parts of the verse are analogs for me. I am the ship. My unresolved issues is the anchor. I am not free of it as long as I remain anchored or rather, leave it unresolved. So, cycles of pain are part of the lessons and they hide them like this,
1. Buddha - If a man has had an evil thought, pain follows like the wheel of the ox that draws the carriage.
2. Lao Tzu - Caught in desire, you see only the manifestations.
3. Moses - You will continue to have increasing pain in childbirth.
4. Jesus - Do not judge or you will be judged in the same manner.
They are all analogous and all interpret in the psyche to the same place once we finish working it through our minds.
They are all cause and effect based in a memory and unresolved emotional state. Then we flow in a collective in life based on the quality of what we harbor in our sub-conscious mind. Forgiving the aught against our brother and having rewards in secret as a result alludes to this. That's like casting off the anchor. It's all word play. All of it.
Jesus was called as the only son of God, had supernatural power, traveled with hand picked disciples and seeks the Kingdom of Heaven Within.
Arthur was called as the only one who could get Excalibur, had Merlin for supernatural power, traveled with hand picked knights and seeks the Holy Grail.
Not many can read between the lines and see something in the background. You're seeing it.
@@scarba It's critically important to note, all the terms are analogous. Desire does not mean conscious desire. It means I have something I am not letting go of. An evil thought is not conscious thinking. It is what I harbor that is evil to my life. I may have been a victim but the anger I hold is the evil. Like that. Naked means uncovered. We start in Eden as self aware kids, happy, no issues. First sin represents naming, judging or just having normal judged life. It will now hurt when it emerges but we got covered right after sin. It represents hiding something inside. We are covered, when being naked is desired as an analog. It's why Noah was buzzed off his wine and naked after the flood. That's us on a cleansing or healing journey. We feel good and have removed a cover. But our other parts, called our children but are further iterations of us, covers us back up. It's a journey, not a step. It is many steps. The Bible rolls through these templates in this verbal clue manner.
When we turn inward to heal, there will be few of us, (called) it will be due to cyclical pain, we will struggle to leave it behind, we must have knowledge of how to mentally interact with our memories for healing, (Think psychology, self imposed, guided by the nested steps in the stories? And cross the threshold or turn into the narrow gate. We turn inward.
Rumi - I have been standing on the lip of insanity, knocking, knocking. The door opens. I have been knocking from the inside.
It's all there in the background for anyone who can break through the puzzles. It has to be well known in secret. It is incredibly prevalent.
Doesn't mean they need to be on this show
UA-cam is full of religious preachers anyway
Always fascinating that apparently rational and intelligent people believe in fairy tales...and poor Michael has to take the irrational belief seriously 🕉 ✡ ☪️ ✝️
Ahhh maybe you give too much credit to people.. it's possible and pretty likely these kinda people are neither intelligent or rational..
@@phukrnd840 Even many eminent scientists (Nobel Prize winners no less) profess a belief in supernatural belief, i.e. religion. There seems to be something deep in the human psyche that almost compels belief in most people.
@@jonnieinbangkok there was a paper written once by some college professor about how the biggest threat to our society is actually stupid people and our inability to recognize them. They are well educated and in respected positions with alot of power in society.. stupid is by no means a limit to a person's level of success or achievement..
I can tell the whole time Shermer is just thinking "what a bunch of nonsense." And he is right to think that.
He would do a good job voicing those thoughts and engage in a debate, no?
@@theinnerlight8016 Have you never watched one of the *dozens* of God debates Shermer has engaged in? He's pretty vocal about it. I don't think he viewed this particular podcast as a good venue to do so, as he was mainly discussing the author's new book.
@@fullmatthew I have seen some of his debates. He's no Christopher Hitchens though, but his books are great.
If he doesn't criticize the scourge of humanity, that is Islam, he's basically giving the Imam advertising space.
He did the same thing with that crazy feminist lately.
If you don't like it, that I don't appreciate this not very sceptical way of Shermer recently, that's too bad.
@@theinnerlight8016 What can I say man, you don't have to watch the show if you don't like Shermer's style
Not a real critique though. Most atheists don't really have an argument at all.
Why is "cutting parts of your genitals off because it's slightly more difficult to clean than your face" still considered rational? Just because it's not as invasive as female genital mutilation, it's still genital mutilation with adverse effects on sensitivity. It's really not difficult to learn how to clean it.
female genital mutilation is not part if Islamic teachings at all
@@themistersmith I'm talking about male genital mutilation
i don't know how he resists laughing at people such as this... Its so difficult....
such people are laughable because? do you understand hadith and tafsir and sciences of the Quran. Or do you laugh because you dont understand much? or do you pretend to know everything and laugh because you think it’s impossible for God to exist? Why do you laugh ?
@@readbooks777 i laugh at a group who worship a pedo... i laugh at people who worship iron age gods still...
@@readbooks777i laugh at people who think these books are more than they are.... lol sciences of the quran? gimme a break
@@phukrnd840 its more than what you think my friend they devoured philosophy logic literature and scientific method because the quran commands people to learn. the quranic scholars developed systematic rules for proper interpretation( exegesis )and learning from quran, they developed from the quran grammatical knowledge, and then structured the language to enable free thought and a vast vocabulary. They practiced proof based knowledge and reasoning based on injunctions in quran. learn about the holden age ehen the west were up in trees burning women for learning the islamic enterprise emancipated them. Anyways ignorance can be bliss so its up to you to learn or rant
@@phukrnd840 I'll second that. But in my experience in directly talking to, or debating them right here on youtube, is that most religious people are completely cemented into their faith--and to such an extent that there is no rational discussion to be had.
I had thought about directly challenging this fellow as you did. But, that impulse lasted about .2 seconds. There is no point in most instances in debating people who make these kinds of comments. Belief in a deity and devotion to an ideology are powerful drivers of behavior and a person's world view.
Language is very important to learn anything so as the religion, Beautifully explained by Imam Muhammad jebara
Female circumcision is OK in Islam -- so long as it's not "too severe":
"A woman used to perform circumcision in Medina. The Prophet (ﷺ) said to her: Do not cut severely as that is better for a woman and more desirable for a husband."
This is a "sahih" (valid) hadith.
Female circumcision is extremely rare in non Arab/African Muslims, suggesting it's a cultural phenomenon predating Islam. I actually don't know anyone who is circumcised, but have heard it's more common among Somali/yemeni populations.
Male circumcision is mandatory
It is not
I mean your citation of the Hadith in of itself refutes female circumcision. Basically, don't cut severely = not mandatory
I've never heard a Muslim speak either about or of the prophet Muhammad and NOT say; "...peace and blessings be with him..." in Arabic or rarely English 😮!
Love this channel and the magazine but I would have liked harder hitting questions. Also, I didn't think the guest answered anything, rather he just skirted around the subject matter.
The guest answered all questions posed to him. You didn’t like them is something else.
Harris Sultan is a good source for all things Islam.
No he is not. He does not know a thing about Islam. He is laughable at best.
Michael-
What is the purpose of bringing M. Jebra to your show?
Everyone know what M. Jebra have said is bs.
The GUEST lied so much😮
1:16:05 made my day. This guy launches into this ridiculous song out of nowhere, and Shermer just sits there, taking it.
This guy is ignorant historically. He made up his own version of Islam
He has written two books. He can not academically survive writing something historically wrong and come up his own version of Islam.
As a matter of fact he is planning for a third book.
Get rid of bias and search for truth.
@@AzurBlue-b5y He is an absolute deviant and did indeed make up his own version of Islam. I knew him personally me and my family and we actually cut all contact with him. Anybody can make a book these days trying to attempt to refute lets say Islam, though the book is totally wrong.
What on earth could be the point of memorising a book absent any kind of understanding of the meaning content? Can anyone help me here?
I'm guessing it's to instill a wonder and esteem for the scripture to get you hooked before you realise what the words you are saying actually mean.
Thanks - That makes sense but it amounts to mental conditioning in advance of understanding. Brain washing in fact.
Indoctrination.
No. Many Muslims know how to read Arabic but cannot understand it. @@KrwiomoczBogurodzicy
Muslims believe Arabic is a holy language, thus the revelation of Quran in Arabic. The Quran and Arabic is quoted throughout physical prayer (salah) and dua (prayer in the Christian sense of asking God ). Every letter recited, let alone memorized, is a form of salvation and erasure of sins.
This would be better without the singing. Just saying.
This episode should more accurately have been called "No True Scotsman: Islam Edition".
I assume Jebara is accurately quoting things, and that his entire interpretation of everything in the Quran is perfectly reasonable, but also not widely accepted by his fellow travelers in the Muslim world. While I certainly wish that ALL adherents to Islam shared Jebara's version of the faith, seeing as they don't, I think the problem with his brand of peace-love-and-understanding liberal religious types is that they provide cover for all of the abortion clinic bombers and suicide bombing jihadists. They say "No secular world, it'd be wrong to try to get people to stop believing in nonsense, we just need to ensure that people believe in the fairytales the RIGHT WAY… Ya know, MY way. Since I'm the one who has it all figured out, and everyone doing bad things based on our religion is just misinterpreting it!" Maybe he's right. Maybe they are. But like… Where does that leave us?
This guest does not look trustworthy at all, not in the least bit.
Is that how you judge a person? Seem shallow.
ITS HARD TO HOLD MY LAUGH HOW SHERMER CAN MANAGE TO DO IT . ITS CLEARLY IMAM GET UNCOMFORTABLE TO BACK WHAT HE AND OTHER MUSLIMS BELIEVES IN THIS NONSENSE
Jebara can keep his Qur'an. I read it once and that was quite enough. It's as false & uninsppired as the Bible is. Jesus and Muhammad both were failed prophets. (Ex-Catholic agnostic-atheist here.)
Yup, ask no more!
this guy sure does like telling example of how smart he is like he was talking to relatives.
I wrote the quran when i was bored.
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Please share some of it here as well. Or you are just farting from mouth.
It seems Mohamad Jebara is a good guy. A nicely Westernized Muslim appreciating Western values, having a cool haircut with no scary beard covering his handsome face. Unfortunately, his (heavily cherry-picked-good-feel) message won't carry any weight in mainstream Islam. As an explicit atheist myself, I wish him all the best for his project to tame the monsters/haters of his cult. 😂
This is the before listening comment, I will update it after I've listened too.
Here's what I know about Quran. It's divided into two parts, part one is tolerant, permissive and kind, written before Mohammed became powerful, it's also called, the "before exodus". Part two, extremely intolerant, violent and forbidding, written after Mohammed became an extremely powerful dictator. I also heard that while Quran forbids silly things like pork, there's not a single word at least condemning slavery, let alone forbidding it.
Let's hear it now 😃
Come on random commenter lets not talk about slavery, otherwise your whole white western civilization will be guilty forever!
That is incorrect. However, yes the Quran was revealed throughout the life of the prophet Mohammed pbuh and thus it is important to analyze it in context of revealation if you're attempting to understand Islam.
Pork is forbidden because it's considered unclean meat. No different than Judaism or Christianity, no?
At any point where Michael brought up the unethical practices or common behaviors of Islamic states, Jebara would just say that they denounce the practice and those people don't know the Qur'an. This is a ridiculous defense because at no point does it actually challenge why these practices are in place and, while maybe uncommon, only occur in Islamic states. It's an embarrassing denial of the reality their society imposes on women and opposing religions.
How about who wrote the Bible and why they wrote it?
That's the only kind of cruise I could ever enjoy.
Yes, Michael let himself down by indulging this no doubt well meaning man by failing to raise the key issues in belief. Hard to respect the act of devoting one’s life to the purveying of such nonsense. So this humble and illiterate man is spoken to by an angel and scribes write down what he says and 1.4 billion people believe they know the meaning of life - AS hitch said “Do me a favour”.
Quran was not written down during Mohammad 's time. It was written during caliphate in Baghdad (bin Marwan)
@@SamhizawaNot correct. It was written during the time of Prophet but compiled during First Caliph time.
At around 58 minutes, the guest graciously admits, that yes languages evolve and without proper context, has little to no meaning, and hence left open to interpretation.
Funny how that's true for every, and any, holy scripture ever written. Not very original and par for the course.
Wtf is this.
Nice that you brought a muslim. Now bring in a Rabbi to talk about their beliefs. Questions like what is the Messiah should be interesting. Also what is Amelik that Netanyahu spoke of?
I'm a cognitive psychologist. He did not memorize a whole book before he understood the language.
That's what he said
Yes, totally unlikely. It's more part of the myth-building, like with his prophet.
I'm not a cognitive psychologist but I have common sense. He did not memorize a whole book before he understood the language.
Most of the Quran memorizers are basically none Arabic speakers. So they memorize Quran without knowing the meaning of the text.
more than 10 mil muslim can memorize and recite the whole al quran.
Oh yes, only my specific group of Muslims or Jews or Christians knows how to read our holy book the correct way everyone else that does terrible things in the name of my God and my holy book is just misunderstanding it.
But this is not a problem with the holy book or my God, who has a God should have been able to be super clear and make sure that there was a book or way to get his message or her message across so that no one misunderstands it, and does evil in the name of that God no it is not God‘s fault. It’s the individuals fault.
October 7.
august 17.
1400 years ago.
OK now I want to know how old he is. He does look very young!
He seemed more intent on promoting his books than addressing the questions. Strange that the father of Mohammad, chosen by god, should die before he was born and his mother a few years later leaving him an orphan. The earliest known bio was written approx 130 years after his death so one has to wonder about its accuracy. All the good practises in the Qur'an that he describes are just common sense ones that do not need some religious envelope. I've always wondered why a creator of this unimaginably vast universe should want the adoration of a bunch of evolved, smelly apes ( think farting, deficating, sweating, bad breath etc), suffering from literally thousands of physical and mental ailments and living in a insignificant rocky sphere, invisible from any of the billions of other galaxies.
Islam specifically believes in prayer though. That is unique among other religions
Well, I may be boasting here a bit, but I think that my farts are rather, ahem, heavenly smelling! Strangely, no one within nose-shot of my perturbations ever agrees with me on this point. People just don't get me. Maybe I'll start a religion.....and one day be interviewed by Shermer. I'll fart into the microphone as a form of prayer or a blessing.
On a serious note, I am a bit puzzled by Shermer for interviewing this particular fellow. I could not even get through the whole discussion. It was hardly worth even that small amount of time I listened in, and it certainly was not worthy of a Shermer interview. I'm disappointed.
Is this a joke? 130 years after his death?! LOL. Do you not know about the hadiths of the prophet on how he prayed, and how he slept (we even know what his pillow was like, and what type of meat did he like to eat). And u here say that he comes in 130 years after him? LOL. There isn't any person who is more heavily documented in the history of humanity, more than prophet Muhammad. From the hundreds of thousands of hadiths talking about everything about him, how many wives he had, how many children he had, what he liked to eat, what he enjoyed drinking, how he looked physically, etc...
Get Islam Critqued guy on and ask him… Islam brought war to me - signed, Mr Infrael.
My favorite Dawkins quote “ Ohhhhhh Mrs Garrison !”
The guy is not honest...
sound is to low
At 29:38, Muhammad (i.e., Shermer's guest) talks about how the Qu'ran affirms life with "whoever kills a soul ... it is as if he had slain mankind entirely"
Well, the "..." is doing a lot of work here.
This is the full text of that passage translated by Maududi:
"""
Therefore We ordained for the Children of Israel that he who slays a soul unless it be (in punishment) for murder or for spreading mischief on earth shall be as if he had slain all mankind; and he who saves a life shall be as if he had given life to all mankind. And indeed again and again did Our Messengers come to them with clear directives; yet many of them continued to commit excesses on earth.
"""
Note that for many, "spreading mischief" definitely includes acting against Islam, as should be evident from the last sentence of the passage.
A fair reading of the text suggests a Manichean view of the world, and is very much "an eye-for an eye".
Geotours = CO2 emissions for no good reason. Disappointing.
i wonder how this discussion would have gone had Sam Harris interviewed this fellow.
Actually, I don't think Harris would have even bothered. I'm honestly puzzled why Shermer even bothered with this fellow. I tried to be open minded, but I could not even finish listening to the whole discussion. It seemed somewhat out of place for someone like Shermer to do, and as much as I tried to take an interest, I had heard more than my fill. I suppose it's because I am so done with religion in any form.
Mr Shermer is first and foremost a businessman.
This was nothing more than a paid advertisement, the guest paid for the interview to shill his book.
He dodged every question and started the conversation with the No True Scotsman Fallacy, "oh they weren't true muslims."
If muslims are peaceful, then why didn't he, or any Muslim, outright condemn their actions!
Don't EVER forget Charlie Hebdo 😢
Was a little disappointed that Shermer let his guest ramble on and on, tap dance around the questions, without ever pressing him to concisely answer.
So because he pronounces a lot of exotic sounding Arabic words, we are supposed to buy into his dogma?
What is killing me how apologists hide the truth and change subject. I don’t care Sharia word root came from water or rock or dirt. What is important how inhumane is cutting peoples hand for stealing a bread for hunger or stoning young girls to death for falling in love
If someone is hungry and the society or state has not provided the opportunity to earn then it is not allowed by Sharia to cut the hands of a thief. Try to learn and ask people before making an opinion.
@@AzurBlue-b5y look at my name ht9xg4….. Don’t tell me I don’t know about Sharia. I certainly know more than you. I lived through it. Have you ever seen stoning videos of Taliban? You are in your fantasy Reality is something else
Couldn't listen to all of mos drivel
I was born and raised as a Muslim in Iran. Waste of time listening to the guest's nonsense. Full of lies and distortions.
If you wan't to know the truth about scientology, ask a scientologist. If you want to know the truth about Mormonism ask a Mormon. If you want to know the truth about Islam ask a Muslim. Anyone else see something wrong with this?
Yes, indeed. They're all peddlers of hogshit.
actually, It is well said in the Quran that disbelievers will remain skeptical and find excuses
wow, your religious dealer even told you people would find his claims unbelievable, he must've been a prophet😏
All things Abrahamic say that. It's part of the sheep with arrogance building process.
Interesting. But this guy is saying nothing different than any other religion which is “No, no. We are really good. It’s not supposed to be that way.” The problem is religion; all religions produce fanatics and destroy reason.
So do not listen or trust this guy. But search for truth in an unbiased manner. Try to find out
1. From where we have come.
2. What is our purpose in this world.
3. Where we are going after this world.
Answer to these questions is important for us.
@@AzurBlue-b5y
1. We evolved by natural selection like all other living things on this planet.
2. Asking what is our purpose is the wrong question. You should be asking what is our function as conscious, modern apes.
3. When we die, we rot and our minds cease to exist. We are material beings that become recycled nutrients for the planet.
What a clown.
If Muhammad was illiterate, how come when he was on his deathbed he called for writing material to set down his final words so his followers wouldn’t go astray? He didn’t call for scribes.
The people around him at that moment include who can write.
@@AzurBlue-b5y Read the hadith.
Shermer knows too little about Islam as he admits to probe deeper or push back. Harris or Hitchens would break this guy in no time.
this guy doesn't even know mohammad was named Katham at birth, and Shermer has given him a platform?
Is Shermer so desperate for a speaker?
Seems like a nice guy but, cherry picks/omits/abbreviates the Koran e.g. Surah 5:32 where he omits the part about corruption and he does not really answer the hard questions IMHO but, ultimately talking ûnsin from West Frisian, onzin from Dutch and old English unsense and from modern English, nonsense.
Let's see how soon Michael goes woke 🙄
Woke? Michael is about the farthest from woke as they come.
@@fullmatthew You wonder why the New Atheists attacked Islam so hard. Now we see they divided atheism between radical feminism/DEI/woke/Humus supporters and rationalists.
Never. I've read his work for almost two decades
If anything he is anti-woke
No one needs all this nonsense in this day and age .
the Qur´an supposed to be the word of god but it creates so many misunderstandings und contradictions...
Mr. Jebara is gay 😊
I've been reading his biography, I'm about halfway through and just got to the marriage to Ayesha. Now I'm poking around the internet looking for justification for Jebara's claim that she was age 29 when married, which is the oldest age I have ever heard. The notes in the back of the book do not go into any detail explaining how he arrived at that number, but he repeats the claim that all the numerous hadiths claiming she was a young child are based on a "senile" narrator who was simply confused. Not at all convincing. This interview left me with the impression that he has that young and enthusiastic "true believer" energy but without much ability to argue persuasively.