I expect that Numenor's "missiles" were meant to be more like artillery rather than guided rockets that we call "missiles" for military use today. An arrow is also a "missile" in the slightly old fashioned sense that Tolkien was fond of using.
I'm guessing those "missiles" took a heavy dose of inspiration from Germany's V-2 rockets in WWII. I know that most of Tolkein's wartime allegories relate to his experience serving in WWI, but of course he did live through WWII (and therefore the Blitz) as well. Tolkein's description of those Numenorean missiles sounds exactly like how one would experience V-2s flying overhead, and then hearing them strike a target off on the horizon.
@@Wolfeson28 the V2 was supersonic, so you'd only hear it once it has already passed (one of the most terrifying aspects of it was that you'd get no audible warning as it approaches) That minor nitpick aside, I agree wholeheartedly about the WWII influence, including the V2 inspiration
I like the scene in the book where elves are giving the Fellowship the elven cloaks in Lorien. Pippin asks whether the cloaks are magic, and the elf he asks doesn't know what he means by that. Magic is not a concept native to the elven way of thinking - they see it as just a part of their ordinary abilities. So earlier when Galadriel asks Sam "did you not say you wished to see elf magic?" she may be poking fun just a little, knowing that is what hobbits call anything an elf can do but a hobbit can't. I think that is the only occasion when an elf in the Legendarium uses the word "magic."
Yeah for elves what w e all magic is simply the ultimate perfection of craft even to the spiritual level. A song that is meant to make you at ease will literally raise your spirits and compel you to be at ease unless something opposes it because it is literally perfected in its intent. Similarly an elven sword is not “magic” it’s a sword that is perfect(in theory) so to never dull, always cut perfectly, always remain clean, etc… Similarly wlven healing in many cases has the power to heal spiritual wounds as well
I always read the "engines" the Numenoreans built as being in the medieval or earlier sense- as in siege engines and their ilk: catapults, ballistae, siege towers etc.
Exactly - From Middle English "engyn", Old French engin (“skill, cleverness, war machine”), from Latin ingenium (“innate or natural quality, nature, genius, a genius, an invention, [in Late Latin] a war-engine, battering-ram”).
One of the more fantasy elements of the lost tales. I would have liked to have seen it in the books. However, the idea of Middle Earth being almost post apocalyptic is still present in LOTR. Empty lands, dwindling population due to plague and warfare, numerous ruins like Moria, Osgiliath, Minas Ithil, Fornost, Amon Sul, Eregion, Dale, Amon Hen etc. The land is dominated by ruins,
The Lotr world is about the things we lost. The Elves go west, the Númenorians loose their long age and majesty. Everything in the story fuels nostalgia.
Great point. The ruin of beleriand, the fall of numenor, the last alliance, then the fall of arnor were all apocalyptic setbacks to civilisation and technology. And there are many minor ones - the fading of the elves, durins bane and the dragons wiping out dwarven civilisation also ensured no one really got off the ground again. Gondor is a remnant, like a part of the Byzantine empire holding on.
I think he was also inspired by the tons of ruined catolic churches that dot the English landscape, many of them purposofully left to disrepair after the Reformation.
There's also a bit in the Hobbit suggesting that the orcs had a bit of technological advancement and probably acquired more later: "It is not unlikely that they invented some of the machines that have since troubled the world, especially the ingenious devices for killing large numbers of people at once, for wheels and engines and explosions always delighted them."
@@7QWERTY13 I always considered the Hobbit to be from a different strain of the tradition of the tale. Kinda like there are early modern romance novels about the arthurian legend and then there is medieval verse epics.
I always think of this quote when it comes to questions of technology in middle earth. Tolkien was deeply wary of technology, so orcs introducing more modern weapons isn't surprising.
@@adiuntesserande6893 I prefer Girl Genius' version: "Any sufficiently analysed magic is indistinguishable from technology." But of course, "magic" really mostly seems to me "something we don't know how to do, but some people think it happens/ed". I mean, we use telepathy every day - transferring thoughts to other brains? All communication is about that. It's just that we use "mundane" means of telepathy - like pictures, gestures, sounds, touch... Speech and written word in particular are almost literally about evoking thoughts in others - all the way to being able to almost fully control other people, if they turn out to be susceptible to our particular techniques. But you can't consider that magic, because it's something everyone does (and that nobody disputes), right? :D I like to draw the line between magic and technology at a certain kind of awareness. For example, it's easy to imagine there might be a technical means for travel through wormholes to other planets in a split-second; if we actually discovered a way to do that, noone would really bat an eye. But look at Stargate, and there's a decidedly magical element to the titular device - for example, when it closes. There's never a case where some member hesitates after everyone else steps through the gate and is stranded - and yet, the second the last team member goes through, the gate closes immediately. There is no real technical explanation for this (some attempts were made, but none were ever remotely consistent); it's of course primarily a dramatic device. In the same vein, how does the Stargate decide when to send some "thing" through? We have a lot of exploration of that topic in the series, but ultimately, there's some sense in which the gate considers something an object, and waits for the whole object to be in before sending it. Which is very reasonable for a portal-like device that actually doesn't directly connect the two opposing sides - but also extremely magical. Of course, you can give an technological explanation for the magical awareness too - namely, a full-blown smart AI. But that's kind of the point - you need something thinking sort-of like a human to get real magic. Sometimes that's provided by the magic users mind (though again, it somehow happens to have an element of control that's really unrealistic; granted, in harder magic stories, keeping control of your magic is considered the hard part, and the reason most attempts to use magic don't end well :D). Most instances of magic in stories have some level of this.
From what I understand of Tolkien and his writing style, I would suspect that when he says "missile" he means it in the same way one might call a sling stone or catapult load a missile. That leads me to conclude that he might mean it as a metaphor for the shells fired from large cannon, such as field artillery or naval guns of the Great War, and not rockets.
It doesn't take much more than gunpowder to make some unguided rockets, though, so one should suppose that if they had one, they had both. And if some enterprising necromancer could bind spirits into the rockets that could turn them by willpower, kind of like how they did the guardian statues at Minas Morgul, they'd have guidance too (though supply would be limited by how fast the necromancer(s) could work without endangering themselves with unbound spirits from sloppy rituals)
@@semi-useful5178 Or the V-2. Plus, considering that many early fireworks were rocket-like in design, it's not that much of a leap to think of actual rockets being invented in Middle-Earth.
"Engines" as used in the published Silmarillion does not refer to motor engines that produce power (i.e. petrol, diesel, steam), but war engines - catapults, trebuchets, ballistas, etc
Worth noting as well that as a philologist Tolkien was noting the etymological connection between magic and machine. English magic finds its root in the Latin magia, referring to any kind of unlawful religious practice. The Romans borrowed the word from the Greek μαγεία, who borrowed it from the Persians to refer to the practices of Zoroastrian priests (aka Magi). The Indo-European root from which the Persian word is derived gave rise in Greek to the word μεχανή, a contrivance, gear, or device, which is the source of the English words machine and mechanism. Tolkien's linking of magic/machine as religiously illicit strikes me as primarily philological, but you can see how he explores that in the treatment of the machine and magic in LoTR and the Silmarillion.
@@jjthefish446 Excuse me, but have you ever heard about the Greater Good? You should really explore that idea, and you may even find out that there are ways to improve yourself and the others quality of life.
Sorry, can you explain where the philological connection is? I couldn't figure out from your comment. The only thing in common seems to be that they words both come from Greek which is...not a unique connection.
So glad you addressed this motif in Tolkien. Tolkien could be called a Luddite for his views on technology and his ideal world as pastoral. But it is more subtle than that. Instead he acknowledged the inevitability of technology and placed the onus on the ethics of Men. Anyway, great job as always and thanks again for another thoughful piece of work.
It was a literal space ship, though, like the one from a Russian faerie tale. I don't think there was any advanced technology in it, only the magic of the Valar.
Something that I thought would have been worth noting for the sake of balance is that Tolkien was likely not using "Engine" in the modern context that we tend to assume it means; a device that creats movement or energy, but as a purely mechanical device to perform work of some kind. More specifically, I think his interpretation of "Engine" in the context of Middle Earth was inextricably tied to his views on machinery and industry as a whole, as a weapon of war; Grond and other large battering rams, siege towers, catapults, twould likely be what Tolkein was imagining when he wrote down "engines".
Yes, and whatever else Sauroman had going under Isengard. I’m an old ENGINEer and my profession is older than steam power. Source: we built the pyramids, and it all started with … 😂
So, when Tolkien says "missile" here, I can 100% guarantee that he didnt mean it in the modern sense of "a guided rocket with an explosive payload", simply because not only did that definition of the word not exist yet, but the device it referred to hadnt been invented yet. If we're talking about Tolkien's early-ish drafts that would have been written in the 20s through to the 40s, and only at the very end of that period were weapons that we would recognize as "missiles" in the modern sense brought into service. And even then they weren't called that yet; they called them "rockets" or "flying bombs". The term missile as we understand it today wouldnt really emerge until after World War 2. Prior to that the word was basically just a synonym for "projectile", referring to arrows, spears, cannonballs, bullets, etc.
You've hit on it with the tank parallel. It's his 1st world war trauma right on the surface. Tanks, flamethrowers, zeppelins, artillery bombardment. The bomb craters left by Grond as Morgoth crushes Fingolfin. Poisonous gas clouds over Hithlum. The origins of those tales were written when he was convalescing. It's astonishing how he was able to sublimate such a horrific experience into something so wonderful.
The most interesting thing to me is the cognitive dissonance at play when it comes to things that relate to his war experience. He wanted to express the horror and futility of war and what power does to even the well-intentioned, but he also wanted to create a nationalist myth in which morality is uncomplicated, outsiders are pure evil, and the reader can enjoy the good guys doing violence to the bad guys with a clean conscience. His love of equating orcs with any modern people he didn't like was deeply creepy. He was both proud and ashamed of what he did. The personal stories of Frodo and Aragorn have opposite messages, but they coexist because they coexisted in Tolkien's mind.
That’s a great point, and people are complicated. However, I wanted to mention something relevant that I recently saw in an old Tolkien interview. He mentioned that just because something was in his stories, or seemed good in the stories, doesnt mean he agreed with them or supported it in the real world. The interviewer brought up the notion of hereditary monarchies which are prevalent in his works and Tolkien said he used them because they made for good stories, not because he thought that they were a superior type of government in reality. That’s just one example.
The point of Tolkien was general. To equate the craters of the Hammer of the Underworld with WWI is biographically likely but obscures the point and goal of applicability instead of analogy.
@@billvolk4236 Don't be that guy. That guy is not welcome in the Tolkien fandom. We don't analyze Tolkien like that. Have some fucking reverence. It's like shit talking the Mona Lisa because da Vinci didn't like fat girls, or whatever arbitrary hypercontemporary grievance lens of analysis you just made up 15 minutes ago. Don't bring that bullshit in this house.
Yes, JRRT knew that machines could be used for good or evil and that it depended on what was in the heart of the designer, the builder and the end user. He also recognized that it was the desire for power, money and control that drove the manufacture of war machines. Sadly, that is still true even now.
How could the Numenoreans of old have reported that the world was round when the world was flat until the Akallabeth happened and Numenor was destroyed?
The word “factories” in the description of Numenorean settlements is very likely meant in its older way, as a trading post and warehousing area, as in the British East India and Hudson’s Bay Company era. That entire description reads like that era.
It does sound more like age of sail/pre industrial versions of trade and colonisation to me rather than leaning towards steampunk. My initial thoughts when hearing it actually went to the Dutch East India company era. This is just listening to the language, not a comment on the intent of Tolkien. The thing that stands out against it is that the air arm of the East India company left little mark on history. Maybe they had dragons there, if this happened before the Doom of Valerya 😂
Hearing about these mechanical innovations also got me thinking about Sauron's possible loss of knowledge as well as power; he pushed the Numenoreans to greater heights, but he didn't replicate these devices himself after the fall.
Not everything was done by Sauron alone, obviously, the highly skilled workforce of Númenor helped him. Clearly working with Númenoreans or Noldor was not the same as working with Orcs or Wild Southern Men.
Exactly. As with "missiles" and "engines", the entire premise of this video seems to be founded on 20th/21st century definitions of words being used by an author firmly rooted in medieval language. It's as childishly simplistic as people who argue that, when Gandalf said "fly, you fools" he was telling them to take the Eagle Taxi Service.
@@asdfasdf-dd9lk In early drafts of The Fall of Gondolin, there's mention of artificial dragons, made of metal, that are full of orcs and balrogs (when balrogs were less significant). But all of that, along with the flying ships etc, were abandoned and occupy the same relation to Tolkien's more developed and mature vision of his work, as the word "gnome" for the Noldor, or Tevildo, Prince of Cats in the role that would eventually go to Sauron. None of it, ultimately, has relevance to Tolkien's ultimate vision, beyond being interesting glimpses into his development of the tales.
Tolkien was almost certainly using the archaic definition of a factory:A trading establishment, especially set up by merchants working in a foreign country.
Technomancy has always been at the heart of Lord of the Rings. After all what are the Rings of Power if not constructed items imbued with magic for domination and control? The main point for Tolkien is they are not “mass-produced” and his opinion is that a technology escaped from its original creators has gone too far. I don’t think Tolkien understands (or wants to) real mass-production, where the power of industry is a reinforced concrete I-beam, making factory spaces as large as an architect can imagine. Tolkien’s manufacture is in workshops, where everyone knows and is involved in the life and family of everyone who works with you. A world frozen in artisanal pre-industrialisation. So he’s creating a reality without industrialisation, but not without invention. This is fitting for a writer descended from clockmakers. Cannons logically should exist in Middle Earth, that they don’t suggests its creator doesn’t want them to. You can say that the metallurgy is too primitive to make reliable barrels, but it clearly isn’t. The “bomb” at Helm’s Deep suggests they only don’t exist, because no-one in (or the God of) Middle Earth wants them to exist. As this is Tolkien, you have to assume this is from personal experience.
Interestingly, cannons were not used all that much in China (and neighbouring states) either, despite having significantly more experience and knowledge of gunpowder (not to mention time and metallurgy). The current prevailing idea seems to be that they were mostly stunted because the typical fortifications were too strong to be harmed by early cannons, so they mostly remained a quaint curiosity (gunpower-based rockets were also used to fire _over_ the fortifications). In contrast, Europe had very poor fortifications where cannons made a difference - and both developed in tandem, leading to cannons that were eventually able to harm even the Chinese-style fortifications. Looking at Middle Earth, the same explanation works great for the absence of cannons. There just wasn't any military use for them - the fortifications we see are either wooden palisades at best... or nigh-on impenetrable ancient walls that require explosives to do any perceptible damage (needless to say, using explosive charges in cannons is a _very_ late development, for obvious reasons; and even Saruman couldn't do it, even with help from Sauron). During the times of more centralised power, they would also be unnecessary - e.g. the Roman standard siege technique was building up a ramp to go _over_ fortifications, and it was pretty much used every time you had enough people on hand (this of course wasn't available to feudal lords for a _long_ time; keeping so many people at arms in the first place and worse than that, keeping them fed, was beyond even the most powerful feudal lords).
Maybe cannons should have existed in Middle Earth? Perhaps. But maybe the black powder was still new, expensive and rare, not known to many except to few alchemists and wizards and because it is so very dangerous to handle those who did know its secret were hestitant to make it for widespread use? Saruman made a one single big bomb for one very specific use, he probably couldn't exactly trust his unruly orcs to handle anything more. 😁 As far as real life goes, the above mentioned China is a good example, they knew fireworks and had gunpowder weapons but it they were not that common compared to conventional bows and melee weapons. And this may come to surprise to some but Europeans were also aware of black powder during the later middle ages, around year 1300, and experimented with it. There were functional (albeit dangerous) medieval cannons and even primitive hand cannons but it was melee weapons, bows and crossbows that ruled the battlefield for many many years before gunpowder weapons finally became advanced enough that they made other ranged weapons and artilleries obsolete.
I've never seen it like that, but now it's obvious; Middle Earth has artisanal technology, not mass production. That's why elves and maiar are able to make artifacts with a certain spiritual technology or spiritual charge, you can't make spiritual/magical artifacts in mass production, you need artisans. That's why orcs do have degrees of industrialization, because they're not spiritual, they don't get magic, they can't be skilled artisans like a noldor or a dwarven lord.
I've never seen it like that, but now it's obvious; Middle Earth has artisanal technology, not mass production. That's why elves and maiar are able to make artifacts with a certain spiritual technology or spiritual charge, you can't make spiritual/magical artifacts in mass production, you need artisans. That's why orcs do have degrees of industrialization, because they're not spiritual, they don't get magic, they can't be skilled artisans like a noldor or a dwarven lord.
I've never seen it like that, but now it's obvious; Middle Earth has artisanal technology, not mass production. That's why elves and maiar are able to make artifacts with a certain spiritual technology or spiritual charge, you can't make spiritual/magical artifacts in mass production, you need artisans. That's why orcs do have degrees of industrialization, because they're not spiritual, they don't get magic, they can't be skilled artisans like a noldor or a dwarven lord.
I so loved this! When I read the Histories, I took that in, and then moved on to the interpersonal interactions and the spiritual issues (that is where my mind goes and my personal interests lie). But as a trained scientist, I always assumed Feanor over his millennia had cracked nuclear energy and worked on subatomic particles and even quantum physics, which would have laid the basis for the palantiri, the lamps, even the Silmarils. And it was obvious that Melkor was a technological expert (if you filtered the writings through untrained Middle Age cultural understanding). I hadn’t given a whole lot of thought to Numenor, but it seemed obvious that they had advanced technology. Thank you, Robert, for another incredibly thoughtful presentation.
Earindel's ship comes to mind when i think of this concept. Someone once said " to the uneducated ( or un enlightened) science is indistinguishable from magic"
Yes, the technology is certainly part of Middle Earth, but it probably is not Shire-make. It probably comes from Dwarven craftsmen, and is not common. I think that umbrellas were mentioned in conjunction with the Mathom House, and was not considered practical gear. The few specimens might even have been relics of the pre-Smaug market of the Dale, an outlet of Dwarvish contrivances, which made its way abroad.
@@digitalnomad9985Actually, Lobelia Sackville-Baggins has an umbrella, and a foldable one, since it is said that she hides several things into it, when she comes to Bag End after Bilbo's party.
I suspect these ideas may have influenced Robert Jordan when writing his Wheel of Time series (I'm currently on Book 11). In that series, humanity was in a post-modern utopia where technology and magic met, but after an evil god cast his influence on this world, it fell into a brutal world war that resulted in societal collapse. The aftermath was that for thousands of years, humanity effectively reentered Medievalism and Feudalism, unconsciously rejecting the 'machines' which has so very nearly destroyed them. This sounds almost exactly what we see here.
Sword of Shannara started out as a direct Tolkien rip-off and (I believe) mutated into a post-apocalyptic tale, with dwarves and elves being future evolutions of humans after the apocalypse. I tried reading the book in junior high after reading LOTR but gave it up and never looked into the rest of the series; I found the writing terrible. (It's been 45 years but I still remember the phrase "taciturn dwarf" was used over and over. And over.)
Huh, now that u concisely summarized the backstory of Wheel of Time there, I realize how similar (but not identical) my own worldbuilding is, even though I had begun it long before I read the Wheel of Time, I’m sure some of it influenced my thoughts and retrofitted themselves into my lore lol.
But then again, the idea of a fallen lost ancient super powerful civilization is a really old idea and is prevalent in fantasy, and my original inspiration came from various other places, not Wheel of Time directly. It might be mostly coincidental by the prevalence of that trope that they’re similar. The most direct similarity to my work is probably the way people reacted to magic afterwards, rejecting it and fearing it because of the destruction it wrought, without really understanding it.
And how did that evil god came to influence the world? By having the characters looking for a new power source and (partly) releasing him :P It's not nearly as anti-industrial as Tolkien, though; more of a warning tale against greed in general. And how futile that warning is when it only takes a couple of greedy people to ruin the whole world.
I think the key is Tolkien’s absolute mastery of the English language and his ability to reach back to earlier and even archaic definitions. Factory… an establishment for traders conducting business in a foreign country. Likewise the earlier comments about engines.
I remember reading a very good article about how magical worlds always seem like medieval. In that same article, the author drew a parallel with our world today. I recall how he mentioned that technology in our time is enabling the creation of increasingly powerful, elegant, and smaller devices (not all of them, but the idea behind all technology is to improve it and make it as portable as possible). And how there is a growing global concern about how we live and protect natural resources, as there is an increasing awareness of policies and practices that are more environmentally conscious and focused on keeping the planet cleaner, safer. In the end, he concluded that perhaps the fantasy worlds we read about in books and see in movies/series are not actually the past, but the future. A future where we can create devices so powerful that they can change the environment around us, and we can return to a state where the primary concern is the environment. Do I think this will be the future? I don't know. But I liked how it makes a certain sense and is a passionate and positive vision of our nature.
Or maybe those are visions of our world where we have failed and have lost significant portion of our knowledge and ability to keep modern society running and nature simply took significant portion of world back. Either by deliberate mismanagement of society and economy as we see today or by "natural" depopulation as we are starting to see today.
@@MrToradragon None of the depopulation that is now going on is natural. The economic and social circumstances to make that happen have been very deliberately put in place over the past eighty years.
People who complain about fantasy not developing fast enough technologically need to realize that the exponential technological development that we see in modern times was foreign to probably 95% or more of human history
You're not wrong, but in the interest of balance, I'll point out that things were not simply stagnant before the industrial revolution, or even stagnant before, say, Rome came along. The progression of technology, yes, was more gradual, but it was still there. I think it's also just something that's hard for us to notice with our modern sense of what technological growth looks like. There are a lot of ostensibly small, iterative changes to the designs of things through history that, I think, we are liable to overlook. Like, take the heavy plow. To us, who gives a shit? It was a plow, so what? I certainly wouldnt be able to tell the difference off the top of my head. At the time, it was a very useful tool that made farming even more productive.
You hit my nerd-bone, so I'll have to join in to a six months old conversation that probably nobody will ever see. The thing about our modern technological progress isn't just that it's so fast, but also that it's continuous. The Bronze Age Collapse set people back pretty far from the height of ancient near eastern/Mediterranean civilization, then recovery and advancement until Rome, then the fall of Rome set technology back nearly 1000 years, and only THEN do we start getting the scientific revolution and the real era of continuous progress.
My mind initially went to the aesthetic of The Last Airbender before watching this video, but now I'm wondering how Tolkien would have felt about the ideals of *Solar*Punk
@@semi-useful5178 Yeah, I didn't think about the fact that SolarPunk hasn't had a big enough impact yet for people to agree on a single definition for what the term even means.
SolarPunk is what the name described. Technology that is powered by the sun, and no other source. That is tech we are currently at the point of doing. @@LOBricksAndSecrets
@@LOBricksAndSecrets Even steampunk doesn't make anything more than a vague aesthetic. the only one with any solid themes attached is Dieselpunk with its explorations into Authoritarianism, War, and Corruption.
There's a throughline in Tolkien's work of treating what we call magic as basically deep knowledge and understanding of something, and the ability to manipulate it. In Tolkien's world, an elven smith can become so good at smithing that they can imbue a ring with the power of fire, or an elven weaver can become so good at weaving that they can make a cloak that makes someone invisible. When Frodo and the others meet Galadriel, iirc, she comments on how the hobbits and the Men call both what the elves do and what Sauron does "magic" but she regards them as completely different things. I think that's meant to imply that there's different approaches of manipulating the world, some exploitative, and some not. In other words, to Tolkien, both technology and magic are form of "craft" which are so advanced they can't be understood by the layman, and can achieve things which seem miraculous. Whether they conform to what we in the real world see as technological and scientific is sort of besides the point, as also highlighted in the video.
I reckon Saruman had the steam engine. All that rumbling underground, smoke and steam constantly rising and the massive deforestation of Fangorn. He tried it in the Shire as well, which was what the great chimney was about. And what wheels was the miller's lad cleaning? Pulleys and flywheels connected to a steam engine. John W. Australia
From what I understand the printing press IS in Middle Earth. Bilbo wrote an autobiography, and it’s sort of implied he published it. IDK I feel like the Hobbits are the furthest along tech wise. When you think of the Hobbits you think of the 18th century in terms of culture.
Books were very much still "published" before the printing press, it was just done by hand by a larger number of people, took longer, and therefore was more expensive.
@@Alicorn_ The way The Hobbit talked about Bilbo writing a autobiography struck me as there had to be presses in the Shire. ( the book literally calls it an autobiography) Also the Hobbits have tobacco as well as coffee.
@@meganofsherwood3665 Yeah Narina seems to have the same thing going on. The Beavers, Tumnus and even the old Narnians living in caves a hundred years after the fall of their civilization in Prince Caspian are still civilized enough to have tea and crumpets!
At 2:40, I believe that Tolkien is using "factory" here in the archaic usage, meaning: "an establishment for factors and merchants carrying on business in a foreign country," as was done especially by the English and French when establishing fur trading outposts in North America; see for instance Moose Factory in Canada on James Bay.
Wow that Tolkien letter than introduces the Silmarilion is seeming more and more prophetic. It’s like wise people can see the trends in the world and where they will lead.
This is fascinating content. Despite what you say that technology isn't inherently bad, accordint to Tolkien, I get a didferent vibe anr message about him from the totality or the video
I see what you mean, but although it’s not clarified, I think Tolkien was specifically singling out certain types of technology, not all tech in general. Just like he showed examples of both good and bad magic, and it was mentioned in the video that the intention behind it is what counts. I’m sure Tolkien would approve of technology who’s purpose is to help, heal, and protect, and things like that. I don’t even think he was against flying machines in general, just those that were used as weapons of war.
Tolkien was deeply biased by his experience. Thats why he created world where people somehow had abundance of food without artificial fertilizers thus making their pre-industrial lifestyle significantly more pleasant than in the real world, thus removing the immediate need that the common folks would feel for a new technology. And when it comes to warfare, he saw people getting shot, or blown to pieces by artillery. He didnt see the brutality of a medieval melee with pikes, maces and axes. If he did, Im very much sure that Anduril would be a repeating rifle.
The interesting thing about this also pertains to the questions "Do orcs have families, and are they irredeemable." I think the fact that in The Lord of the Rings at least it is true that evil cannot create. it can only destroy and corrupt mean that Morgoth could not have devised those war machines himself. Either the Elves and Men were bringing them to war first and he was stealing their designs and building his own, the same way he used Celebrimbor to make the rings and Numinor to make more ships, or else he must have someone good on his side designing these things for him. It's possible it was an Elf or Man, but I like to think of it as a rare Orc who became more inventive, designed something new out of his drive to keep his ally Orcs alive in battle because he genuinely cared for their lives, but was ultimately kept captive and forced to do Morgoth's bidding as this Orc later learned how much destruction his creations brought to others. This, I think, is the most interesting character to explore among those that might be shows as Orcish perspective characters. Sure a Lurts is fun from time to time, but as a villain. If Rings of Power were to explore the concept of this Orc as a free thinking and more kind Orc at first and tells the story as he comes to terms with the fact that other Orcs are not so kind as he had become, and eventually in mourning for their corruption quits making the technology to save his friends and accepts their deaths only to be leashed by Sauron and forced to continue the work instead. In The Rings of Power season 2 we do see a similarly good Orc story explored which seemed rough at first but ends with good writing and I think ends faithful to Tolkien (Spoilers ahead on the details). The orcs in Season 2 are shown to betray Adar their father, kill him violently, and actively choose Sauron mostly out of a growing disdain or hate for their father rather than a love for Sauron. Mostly for Sauron it was respect that they felt, especially after killing him themselves and seeing him return to life and power. But seeing the Orcs unanimously choose to murder their father and side with Sauron is the very story Tolkien would have approved as it mirrors the fall of Lucifer and the other angels as well as the corruption of sinners that choose to do evil and hate God their father, crucifying Jesus who is both the son of God and God himself. Adar dies with his arms held out to the sides by his children and grandchildren in Jesus pose, stabbed to death y others of his children, and as he falls to the ground they drop him naturally again in the arms spread Jesus pose. For the Orcs Adar was Jesus, but he wasn't able to die for their sins because when they killed him none were repentant. When later in the episode one of his children shows doubt that they did the right thing, Sauron executes him before he can sew that doubt among the legion. Thus this story in The Rings of Power has shown exactly why the Orcs are so evil by starting off showing their children and wives, and ending showing them as the Orcs we know from The Lord of the Rings. Anyway, this story of the engineer Orc is another that would fit well in that. By showing the goodish Orc father in Adar, and the good Orc grandchild in the engineer, a light would be shown on the evil Orcs to reveal their motivation. And the dark hearts of the Orcs would be revealed in that moment to be as corrupt and evil as we are lead to believe. They choose evil and destruction unanimously, and though they could rally together to end that evil and destruction in rebellion to the shadow, they continue to persist in that evil for desire to do evil and no other thing. The engineer weeps as his inventions are used to sew further destruction, and eventually must be chained and tortured to continue his work.
4:25 remember that Tolkien said his books are "history" and not fantasy. This means Tolkien was an "ancient astronaut theorist" but instead of it being aliens, they were Atlanteans (Numenoreans) Read Graham Hancocks books for more info on historical Atlantis
I've been waiting for one of the UA-cam Tokienists to do this episode, for years. Brilliant! Two thumbs up! Without this information about industrialization, mechanization, and blind technological overindulgence, most people don't think any farther than Saruman cutting down trees, and Ted Sandyman's mill becoming -- evidently -- steam powered. Professor Tolkien's universe is magic and pixie dust without the knowledge that it contains machinery, too -- but machinery isn't the star of the Lord of the Rings ... not even the clear elements of advanced technology like wizard staffs or Palantiri or Rings of Power, for that matter. The Professor's mythology for the British people was personal, agenda-driven, and highly moral. In the Lord of the Rings, we get such a tiny sliver of all that Professor Tolkien believed and wanted to say. You have just outed some -- in my opinion -- critical elements that help not only deconstruct his complex philosophy, but also his religious views and beliefs, with which far too many modern enthusiasts do not want to be bothered. I'm glad we didn't really have a steampunk Lord of the Rings (who needs Orcs with AK-47's), but the dual-edged swords of progress and invention are a couple of the most foundation themes underpinning all of Professor Tolkien's mythology. I am so glad you hauled them out for everyone to see and ponder. Well done! I salute your scholarship! 👍👍
To me, Numenor was always analogous to the British Empire. Blessed by the Powers and splendidly isolated, but that wasn't good enough. The Numenoreans were driven to conquer and colonize. All of which led to disaster for Numenor, just as it did for England, though JRRT didn't live long enough to see the full horror of it. Tolkien never considered himself 'British'. One can wonder if JRRT blamed his father's death upon the existence of the Empire.
In the art credits, you missed the illustration on the left at 8:13, which is from the original edition of Twenty Thousand Leagues Under the Sea. It depicts Captain Nemo showing Professor Arronax the engine room of the Nautilus.
Tolkein was touching on ancient advancement and regression in our world. Look at rome 2000 years ago, how far they got and then in the near blink of an eye they collapsed and human society regressed centuries, technology was lost and progress didn't resume for 1000 years. So saying that at one point the mumenorians were this advanced and then basically over night it all vanished and was swallowed by the sea and time, shows how the age we live in now could just as easily vanish beneath the dust and dirt of the earth and be forgotten to future men.
9:14 Holy Moly!! I had no idea J--Mann from Mushroomhead was a Darklord. That artwork could be right from their 2014 look. Seriously, right down to the detail on the helmet and facial 🤔.
You should expand your channel to cover The Cosmere. Mistborn and Stormlight Archive are both partially built on the premise of society advancing and they're better books than ASOIAF without a doubt.
A lot of people think metal-clad ships are relatively modern (1860s onward). But Frigates in the 18th Century had copper cladding on the bottom. The US built a few for the Barbary Pirates in an effort to keep them molif. I imagine Numenorean Drommonds could have had such metal cladding.
@@macrosense My point exactly. This is not even in the top 10 of the problems with that show, but the only difference between Numenor and the "Southlands", as far as we could tell, were some giant statues and cleaner buildings.
@@kingofcards9 The differences in technology and culture between the men of Middle Earth and Numenor should be obvious. Have them communicate via palantir, so they can talk to the home base even when they're off conquering Middle-Earth. Give them massive ships, enough for an occupying force. Maybe steam- or coal-powered, or at least some impressive sailing vessels. Show us a printing press, maybe, aqueducts and indoor plumbing. Go into a Numenorean hospital and show off the fantastic healing herbs they've discovered, far better that what they'll have in Gondor in the distant future. We shouldn't have to be TOLD that Numenor is humanity at its peak, we should see it in every scene. Give the royals some mithril jewelry, since mithril was available on the island. Show off some classic architecture with a distinct half-elven/half-human style, especially in Andunie, and then the technologically advanced but awful-looking towers of the future. And when it's time to build up your characters, show how under all of that, they're terrified of death and willing to buy whatever snake oil might prolong their lives a little. Show off their arrogance when they hunt down other humans and steal their stuff. Give us the Meneltarma, overgrown with weeds while Sauron goes all out with his temple of evil. Show us that this is a blessed race running heedless to its own destruction.
I didn't read 'engines' as being 'engines' in the modern sense, until I heard of the notion JRR had and abandoned of a Numenor with airships, and that the Orcs and dark powers built things like tanks ( there's abandoned versions of LOTR that mention the Orcs having tank-like machines ), since when I have wondered. The abandoned description of the Numenorean airships - that they were actually aiming for something more than airships - almost sounds like they were trying to have a sort of space program. I'll admit, I like the idea that Numenor was more technologically advanced, it's an interesting take.
This brought to mind the chapter The Scouring of the Shire at the end of The Return of the King. Saruman and his Men have 'industrialized' the Shire, making it a reflection of Barad-dur and Isengard. Merry, Pippen, and the gang wage war to take back control, and then the Hobbits cleanse the Shire of those works. And now that brings to mind the future Ages of Middle-Earth, that connect into our present day (saw that in a video from somewhere). How far was it into the future of Middle-Earth before the achievements and skills of Numenor were seen again?
Oh ... dear. The modern use of factory is not what Tolkien meant, he was talking about the 17th - 18th Century use of the term where the East India Company settlements in India were "factories" gathering in hand crafted goods from the hinterlands. Equally "engines" does not in any way imply steam engines because engines of war meant anything from crossbows through to battering rams, galleys, sailing ships and trebuchets.
That could be, but I'm not sure how you could know what Tolkien precisely meant here, especially since we're considering text that he ultimately decided not to include in published versions. It's quite plausible that he played around with explicit industrialization in the stories and then later decided it wasn't needed or pushed the story too close to modern realism, just as he never spelled out a highly codified magic system.
I'm an illustrator who's devoted quite a bit of time to what the engines of flame, in great serpents, who upon breaching gondolins gates, emptied orcs from them. I've sketched many tanks/troop carriers blended with a dragon/serpent form. I always figured the ambiguity around them lent itself to at least a comparable impression one might get oh, say, on the battlefields of ww1 seeing a tank for the first time. It walks the line of machine, organic, and/or magic and I love how open to interpretation they are! It also gives me a way out of a more impractical design.😉
I think Christoffer is wrong about the flying ships only appearing in the case of Numenor. Vingilot is used to slay Ancalagon the black in the first age while Numenor arises in the second age if Im not mistaken?
It sounds like he means technological flying ships specifically. Vingilot was sent by the Valar through the Door of Night, entering the heavens and empowered by a Silmaril. This is magic rather than craft, whereas the Numenorean flying ships flew via lift and thrust.
@@meganofsherwood3665 Sure, but Christopher Tolkien isn't an elf. Or less glibly, Tolkien does seem to draw some kind of distinction there, as industrial capabilities are consistently associated with evil in his stories, even though doing the same sorts of things with magic isn't. The power of the Valar sank Beleriand, and this is viewed as tragic but not evil. Yet if a mechanical weapon had done that, we can be quite sure it would be orcish and eloquently reviled in the text.
This video was very interesting. I haven’t made it all the way through the Silmarillion yet but I cherry picked sections about Numenor before Rings of Power aired just to get familiar with the setting & people, & I never absorbed the info that Numenor had powered ships & flying machines. Sometimes I can read a passage & it just doesn’t enter my mind adequately to realize just what it says. Your vudeo made the references much clearer & I love the idea of Steampunk engines! Thanks.
I've read those early versions of the tales of "Mechanized Númenor" and while they make for a fascinating what-if tale, it doesn't really fit with the rest of the Legendarium. The Númenor we got is a much more fitting one.
LONG AGO .. I noticed that Numenor, at the height of it's power was at a technological level equivalent to that of the final publication dote of LotR - about 1955 Missiles that fly for many miles with a great roaring sound that do not miss theor mark, is a phrase I remember And the steel bows of the Numenoreans - they actually existed up until about 1980 & I still have one ...
I believe bilbo during the Hobbit mentions a smell of gunpowder after Gandalf blows up some goblins in goblin town. I believe he also compares a sound he here's to a pop gun, which is of course a toy gun. There is also a reference to a clock at one point. For him to reference all these things it would imply that they exist and are common enough for Bilbo to be familiar with them.
I think some slight steampunk elements would've worked very very well in Middle Earth! Especially with Dwarves and Orcs. With flying ships I think every battle would've looked totally different but some certain tools, weaponry and architecture would've worked. I mean imagine the Rohirrim riding through the Mark and two riders and catch a horde of Orcs with a flexible metal rod... 😂
Being familiar only with The Hobbit, LOTR and the books not (explicity) set in middle earth - Smith of Wootton Major, Farmer Giles of Ham, etc.) I found this very interesting and revealing. It makes explicit what is implied in the works that I do know - that labour has its own value, and to use technology (whether magical or metallurgical) as a 'shortcut' is destructive of the user because it is against the 'natural' (or god-given) order.
Thank You for putting these elements in perspective. As much as I love the films and the work of Christopher Tolkien to publish more of his father's work, I fear that in some ways one small flaw that came with both efforts was an overemphasis or revisionism about these elements and a more anti-any-tech/industry vibe that may slightly more betray where Christopher was as opposed to JRR himself, who made his points but never belaboured or obsessed-on this one.
Factories in this context refers to trade outposts of the colonial expansion of europe. If you read a history book, you can see that for example, the trade outposts the portugese established in india were called factories. Engines refers to engines of war, like siege towers, catapults and so on.
To the faithful 'In Deep Geekians'; I am not new to LOTR, but am to the books - I have just finished all of tolkein's work and asking for suggestions on other similar novels... though one accepts that such a matter class in writing can never be replicated
The Wheel of Time novels would probably be a popular and good recommendation! Just a heads up, the beginning of the first book intentionally is very similar to the beginning of the Fellowship of the Ring, but it soon after diverges into more original territory as the author brings in more of his own ideas instead of continuing to follow the tropes.
I'd suggest Ursula K. LeGuin's 'Earthsea' books. There's the original trilogy from the early 1970s, 'A Wizard of Earthsea', 'The Tombs of Atuan', and 'The Farthest Shore' which is the story of the magician Ged. Many years later she wrote two further novels 'Tehanu', and its sequel 'The Other Wind', and 'Tales from Earthsea' a short story collection. These are well worth reading, and after Middle Earth, the world of Earthsea is one of the best imaginary worlds. Then there's Robert Holdstock's 'Ryhope Wood' series 'Mythago Wood', 'Lavondyss', 'The Bone Forest', 'The Hollowing', 'Merlin's Wood', 'Gate of Ivory', and 'Avilion'. The series is set in a magical forest, which like Doctor Who's Tardis is much much bigger on the inside and people who enter it sometimes never return. It appears on a map to only be three square miles in size but as you travel into the wood you travel back into Britain's mythic past, and it's inhabited by beings drawn from that mythic past. The series is well worth checking out, though it's a cycle rather than a series. For a simple standalone novel, check out Lud-in-the-Mist by Hope Mirrlees What I like about both series is that they are great fantasy series, but not trying to be like Tolkien in the slightest. Tolkien created the greatest fantasy series there has been, but subsequent writers in the genre often just try to copy him - with IMHO very mixed results.
I would argue that there is an important difference between the use of magic and the use of machines though in Tolkien: while magic is used both by good and evil characters, machines are solely used by evil characters. Morgoth, Sauron, Saruman and the later Numenoreans use them, but none of the protagonist factions.
I absolutely love the idea of how discovering that the world is round is tied to the abandonment of gods and faith. As if knowledge, or lack of mystery, is the killer of religion. Which it is. You can either be religious or smart. Love it.
I think much of the imagery of what the monsters could do in Middle Earth was derived from Tolkien's traumatic experiences at the Battle of the Somme. I have known for a long time that Tolkien had many misgivings about industrialization and its reckless damage to both people and the ecosystems of the earth. I share his misgivings.
Yes, but it was also an inherent bias, because he lived through the misery of industrial warfare, but have never seen the misery of pre-industrial warfare. He spoke through the mouth of his character Faramir, and described the ancient weapons like swords and bows as something not to be admired, but also as something usable, especially for defense. A more modern equipment should also fall into that category, as both can be used, and both can be misused. But he didnt see the world where people bash one another with maces (even though that happened a few times even in WW1), he only saw the world where people shot at each other with rifles and cannons. So he developed a bias that from both a historical standpoint and from a moral standpoint is difficult to argue for.
The criticism of fantasy fictional societies never evolving beyond "medieval" technology (especially in the realm of warfare) is, to my mind, somewhat unfair. Actual human society did not move that much over thousands of years from the dawn of civilisation to around 1500AD. Gunpowder was only just beginning to have a significant effect upon warfare at that point. We are nowadays too used to a rapid technological change to appreciate how slowly things moved between Ur and Elizabethan London. The industrialised era is a small timeslot within the span of human experience, about 3%. Moreover, throughout those six or seven millennia, technologies - some of them advanced and complex - did exist, created by the great craftsmen of their ages. Sometimes at near-industrial intensities, but often rare and expensive, for the use of great people only. Much as with the important artifacts in fantasy tales.
What I want to know is, how are potatoes a thing in the Shire when Middle Earth is clearly based on Western Europe and potatoes weren't introduced to Europe until the 16th century?
After Preston Jacobs' "Is A Song of Ice and Fire post-apocalyptic sci-fi?", we now get In Deep Geek's "Is Lord of the Rings post-apocalyptic sci-fi?", and I'm _so_ here for it. 😁
This is one of the things about power in LOTR that I always felt was compelling. In Tolkien's soft magic world, the source of the power was mysterious, be it magic or machine. Some might say the distinction is irrelevant, but I would say that it is "not for us to know". The great wisdom of the ancient might understand it, but it was so advanced that nobody else in the stories would, and that gave it incredible, sacred, dangerous impact. The movies actually summed up this feeling quite well in the scene where Wormtongue brings fire a little too close to Saruman's black powder bomb, even if it was a little on the nose.
The real reason that the tanks and air ships weren't prominent is because when the Numenoreans first started producing them, Galadriel sensed their production, swam to Numenor from Middle Earth, and utterly destroyed each machine with a single punch. Then she went to the factories and destroyed each factory with a single punch. So great was the number of factories and war machines, that for six days and six nights Galadriel punched without ceasing until at last she punched the great factory Durngrath, the Mother of Factories, atop Meneltarma. And just like that, Numenor's industrial revolution and its war machine were destroyed.
Everything that we think we made for the common man to survive is actually a product of war. Take super glue for example It was not made for the sole fact of keeping things together tight and strong but also was for in the military and they needed something to be strong enough to be used on the moment's notice. It was also used them to seal wounds in the minutes of battle without any supplies.
I'll add that some technology was painted positivly, after all hobbits did have mills and forges, the difference is that those where used for agriculture, make tools and grind wheat. The hobbits didn't go further because that was enougth. Adding Gandlaf's fireworks, we can say that technology in arda is good so long as it's purpose is tocreate or bring joy. The hobbit and annexes also refer the dwarves developping crafting skills in the ways of architecture and making the likes of aqueducs.
Many fantasy civilisations dont see the need for such developement. Magic fulfills the role of technology there. Why use steam engines when you have griffins flying around, and portals at the mages academy provide long distance travel for the affluent? In the healing arts the advances of the chirurgeons science take second place to healing priests who do it far more efficiently as per the power of their gods. Regrown limbs, no problem, donate a large swath of forest to your friendly druids! Only the villains need tech. So shown in Tolkiens work. Saruman as a captain of industry as well as a leading wizard, he knows what he is doing. Far more advanced than Sauron, if you ask me. That one relies too much on brute force, to satisfy his need for domination!
Everything Saruman did was in IMITATION of Sauron (Sauron did it first - well, Morgoth did it first, but Sauron did it before Saruman). Tolkien states that Isengard and Saruman's forces were just a child's copy, a plaything, compared to Sauron.
I've read enough Cyberpunk to know, swords are incredibly practical. Even and especially in high-tech environments. To quote Sean Connery in The Hunt for Red October: "There are things in there that don't react well to bullets." Besides, you used a picture of a wheelbarrow. I worked on farms and construction sites. Both with their own advanced industrial technology. Guess what they both still use?
I wondered, when I first read TLOTR, why middle earth remained in a medieval level of technology for over 6,000 years. In that same amount of time, Western civilization went from clay tablets to space stations. I mean, they invented chemical batteries and steam powered machines by the time of the Romans. They just didn't go anywhere with these potential technologies because slave labor was cheap and available. 😢 I figured finally that the constant attacks by Sauron, directly or indirectly, caused a cultural and technological stagnation throughout the 2nd and 3rd ages.
Development of technology in real world is more complex than linear from clay to space station (even thou I would say that LHC in CERN is greater feat of engineering). You have to take in account number of variables, like several collapses several "world wars", number of people, ease of communication between nations and societal structure. The fact that we went from basic mechanics, evil spirits and writing on parchment to nuclear fission, fusion and electronic communication, does not mean that it would happen everywhere, we just had extremely favourable conditions for that. Especially favourable was collapse of medieval order in general crisis that led to rise of middle class in western Europe. But first we had to had medieval society that was not of despotic nature as societies in other parts of the world were. E.g. In japan their own "general crisis" - sengoku period let not to rise of freer class system, but to more rigid one. And in period of 250 years that the west went from basic technology to steamships, mass manufacturing, railways and basic understanding of electricity and magnetism, they remained more or less on same level of technological development. Even thou they developed beautiful arts. Now the situation would be perhaps similar if outcome of 30 years war was different. For example if the Europe would not be split between Protestants and Catholics, but Catholics would totally won, I have no doubt that the development would be significantly stalled if not reverted. I don't think they would be keen on printing of books, they would most likely try to assert firm control over education and prevent any future "heresy". Yet they would most likely heavily invest in architecture and arts as sort of way how to display power of god to common people. Little bit in a same way they did it in Czech Lands after 30 years war, the result is that up to these days many towns and villages have churches far greater than they would ever need and the whole land is dotted with various chapels and wayside shrines. On the other hand it is hard to say how they would act if there would be no competition.
So Spelljamming is in the histories of Lord of the Rings, excellent. I have always had some difficulty talking other D&D players in to Spelljamming because of the lack of imagination with Fantasy settings but also being part of a crew is not the same as being part of an adventuring group in most players minds. We all resist authority even in our role playing. Star Trek type thing is also not what D&D players run to because of the lack of free decision making. I hope One Piece helps change peoples minds on this. It just takes some creative problem solving to deal with travel to and from a ship in space and the fantasy world planet. Plus it makes these strange fantasy planets feel more a part of something far greater. Pirates seemed to enjoy the freedoms a pirate ship provided so it can interest players too. What your saying can be applied to this D&D issue as well. Spelljamming is a fantasy setting. Like I always thought The Black Hole movie is a dungeon in space complete with undead. 😆
I expect that Numenor's "missiles" were meant to be more like artillery rather than guided rockets that we call "missiles" for military use today. An arrow is also a "missile" in the slightly old fashioned sense that Tolkien was fond of using.
"Having a sound like thunder as they fly" implies a rocket to my imagination
Unguided rockets were a thing for a long time
I'm guessing those "missiles" took a heavy dose of inspiration from Germany's V-2 rockets in WWII. I know that most of Tolkein's wartime allegories relate to his experience serving in WWI, but of course he did live through WWII (and therefore the Blitz) as well. Tolkein's description of those Numenorean missiles sounds exactly like how one would experience V-2s flying overhead, and then hearing them strike a target off on the horizon.
@@Wolfeson28 the V2 was supersonic, so you'd only hear it once it has already passed (one of the most terrifying aspects of it was that you'd get no audible warning as it approaches)
That minor nitpick aside, I agree wholeheartedly about the WWII influence, including the V2 inspiration
I think he was talking about cannons
@@EnDungeoned Cannons sound like thunder.
I like the scene in the book where elves are giving the Fellowship the elven cloaks in Lorien. Pippin asks whether the cloaks are magic, and the elf he asks doesn't know what he means by that. Magic is not a concept native to the elven way of thinking - they see it as just a part of their ordinary abilities. So earlier when Galadriel asks Sam "did you not say you wished to see elf magic?" she may be poking fun just a little, knowing that is what hobbits call anything an elf can do but a hobbit can't. I think that is the only occasion when an elf in the Legendarium uses the word "magic."
Yeah for elves what w e all magic is simply the ultimate perfection of craft even to the spiritual level.
A song that is meant to make you at ease will literally raise your spirits and compel you to be at ease unless something opposes it because it is literally perfected in its intent.
Similarly an elven sword is not “magic” it’s a sword that is perfect(in theory) so to never dull, always cut perfectly, always remain clean, etc…
Similarly wlven healing in many cases has the power to heal spiritual wounds as well
I always read the "engines" the Numenoreans built as being in the medieval or earlier sense- as in siege engines and their ilk: catapults, ballistae, siege towers etc.
Exactly - From Middle English "engyn", Old French engin (“skill, cleverness, war machine”), from Latin ingenium (“innate or natural quality, nature, genius, a genius, an invention, [in Late Latin] a war-engine, battering-ram”).
That wouldn’t make a lot of sense, because they already exist in wider Middle Earth, so wouldn’t be terribly impressive.
@@ZveeboThey may not have already existed. Numenor was established about 6000 years before the Barrad Dur fell.
Except a metal ship without a sail as the Numenoreans built would require an engine in the modern sense.
@@michaelkelleypoetry. . . Unless it was some kind of galley (presumably rowed by slaves).
One of the more fantasy elements of the lost tales. I would have liked to have seen it in the books. However, the idea of Middle Earth being almost post apocalyptic is still present in LOTR. Empty lands, dwindling population due to plague and warfare, numerous ruins like Moria, Osgiliath, Minas Ithil, Fornost, Amon Sul, Eregion, Dale, Amon Hen etc. The land is dominated by ruins,
Wow, never looked at Middle Earth like that! Makes sense
Tolkien viewed the ruins of Britain as reminder of an “ancient but venerable” civilization, that had become just a memory.
The Lotr world is about the things we lost. The Elves go west, the Númenorians loose their long age and majesty. Everything in the story fuels nostalgia.
Great point. The ruin of beleriand, the fall of numenor, the last alliance, then the fall of arnor were all apocalyptic setbacks to civilisation and technology. And there are many minor ones - the fading of the elves, durins bane and the dragons wiping out dwarven civilisation also ensured no one really got off the ground again. Gondor is a remnant, like a part of the Byzantine empire holding on.
I think he was also inspired by the tons of ruined catolic churches that dot the English landscape, many of them purposofully left to disrepair after the Reformation.
There's also a bit in the Hobbit suggesting that the orcs had a bit of technological advancement and probably acquired more later: "It is not unlikely that they invented some of the machines that have since troubled the world, especially the ingenious devices for killing large numbers of people at once, for wheels and engines and explosions always delighted them."
@user-pd3gn3ep4f "Goblin" and "orc" are interchangeable words for the same creature in Middle Earth.
@user-pd3gn3ep4f I'm pretty sure the G-word is racist. ;)
@@7QWERTY13 I always considered the Hobbit to be from a different strain of the tradition of the tale.
Kinda like there are early modern romance novels about the arthurian legend and then there is medieval verse epics.
I always think of this quote when it comes to questions of technology in middle earth. Tolkien was deeply wary of technology, so orcs introducing more modern weapons isn't surprising.
I fell that’s more referring to siege engines, like siege towers
I was immediately reminded of Clarke's Law. "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
*same thoughts came to my mind as well*
there will be no treaty and NO VACCINE!!
Pratchett's Corollary also applies: "Any sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology."
@@adiuntesserande6893 I prefer Girl Genius' version: "Any sufficiently analysed magic is indistinguishable from technology."
But of course, "magic" really mostly seems to me "something we don't know how to do, but some people think it happens/ed". I mean, we use telepathy every day - transferring thoughts to other brains? All communication is about that. It's just that we use "mundane" means of telepathy - like pictures, gestures, sounds, touch... Speech and written word in particular are almost literally about evoking thoughts in others - all the way to being able to almost fully control other people, if they turn out to be susceptible to our particular techniques. But you can't consider that magic, because it's something everyone does (and that nobody disputes), right? :D
I like to draw the line between magic and technology at a certain kind of awareness. For example, it's easy to imagine there might be a technical means for travel through wormholes to other planets in a split-second; if we actually discovered a way to do that, noone would really bat an eye. But look at Stargate, and there's a decidedly magical element to the titular device - for example, when it closes. There's never a case where some member hesitates after everyone else steps through the gate and is stranded - and yet, the second the last team member goes through, the gate closes immediately. There is no real technical explanation for this (some attempts were made, but none were ever remotely consistent); it's of course primarily a dramatic device. In the same vein, how does the Stargate decide when to send some "thing" through? We have a lot of exploration of that topic in the series, but ultimately, there's some sense in which the gate considers something an object, and waits for the whole object to be in before sending it. Which is very reasonable for a portal-like device that actually doesn't directly connect the two opposing sides - but also extremely magical.
Of course, you can give an technological explanation for the magical awareness too - namely, a full-blown smart AI. But that's kind of the point - you need something thinking sort-of like a human to get real magic. Sometimes that's provided by the magic users mind (though again, it somehow happens to have an element of control that's really unrealistic; granted, in harder magic stories, keeping control of your magic is considered the hard part, and the reason most attempts to use magic don't end well :D). Most instances of magic in stories have some level of this.
From what I understand of Tolkien and his writing style, I would suspect that when he says "missile" he means it in the same way one might call a sling stone or catapult load a missile. That leads me to conclude that he might mean it as a metaphor for the shells fired from large cannon, such as field artillery or naval guns of the Great War, and not rockets.
It doesn't take much more than gunpowder to make some unguided rockets, though, so one should suppose that if they had one, they had both. And if some enterprising necromancer could bind spirits into the rockets that could turn them by willpower, kind of like how they did the guardian statues at Minas Morgul, they'd have guidance too (though supply would be limited by how fast the necromancer(s) could work without endangering themselves with unbound spirits from sloppy rituals)
For me I imagined screaming rocket artillery like the Hwatcha or Katyusha.
*that was my thinking as well*
@@semi-useful5178 Or the V-2.
Plus, considering that many early fireworks were rocket-like in design, it's not that much of a leap to think of actual rockets being invented in Middle-Earth.
@@Wolfeson28
The V2 very notably screamed too.
"Engines" as used in the published Silmarillion does not refer to motor engines that produce power (i.e. petrol, diesel, steam), but war engines - catapults, trebuchets, ballistas, etc
Worth noting as well that as a philologist Tolkien was noting the etymological connection between magic and machine. English magic finds its root in the Latin magia, referring to any kind of unlawful religious practice. The Romans borrowed the word from the Greek μαγεία, who borrowed it from the Persians to refer to the practices of Zoroastrian priests (aka Magi). The Indo-European root from which the Persian word is derived gave rise in Greek to the word μεχανή, a contrivance, gear, or device, which is the source of the English words machine and mechanism. Tolkien's linking of magic/machine as religiously illicit strikes me as primarily philological, but you can see how he explores that in the treatment of the machine and magic in LoTR and the Silmarillion.
Sweet Omnissiah, guide this missile into the hearts of Your foes. Spirit of fire,. Prime this weapon,. And blast the foe
Awesome insight, thanks!!!!
@@jjthefish446 Excuse me, but have you ever heard about the Greater Good? You should really explore that idea, and you may even find out that there are ways to improve yourself and the others quality of life.
on that note, I love the quote: "Advanced enough technology is indistinguishable from magic"
Sorry, can you explain where the philological connection is? I couldn't figure out from your comment. The only thing in common seems to be that they words both come from Greek which is...not a unique connection.
Steampunk Numenor would certainly explain how they forced Sauron to kneel without even a fight.
So glad you addressed this motif in Tolkien. Tolkien could be called a Luddite for his views on technology and his ideal world as pastoral. But it is more subtle than that. Instead he acknowledged the inevitability of technology and placed the onus on the ethics of Men. Anyway, great job as always and thanks again for another thoughful piece of work.
Despite Tolkien's misgivings about technology, reminder that Earendil literally rammed a spaceship into Ancalagon the Black
It was a literal space ship, though, like the one from a Russian faerie tale. I don't think there was any advanced technology in it, only the magic of the Valar.
Something that I thought would have been worth noting for the sake of balance is that Tolkien was likely not using "Engine" in the modern context that we tend to assume it means; a device that creats movement or energy, but as a purely mechanical device to perform work of some kind. More specifically, I think his interpretation of "Engine" in the context of Middle Earth was inextricably tied to his views on machinery and industry as a whole, as a weapon of war; Grond and other large battering rams, siege towers, catapults, twould likely be what Tolkein was imagining when he wrote down "engines".
Yes, and whatever else Sauroman had going under Isengard. I’m an old ENGINEer and my profession is older than steam power. Source: we built the pyramids, and it all started with … 😂
So, when Tolkien says "missile" here, I can 100% guarantee that he didnt mean it in the modern sense of "a guided rocket with an explosive payload", simply because not only did that definition of the word not exist yet, but the device it referred to hadnt been invented yet.
If we're talking about Tolkien's early-ish drafts that would have been written in the 20s through to the 40s, and only at the very end of that period were weapons that we would recognize as "missiles" in the modern sense brought into service. And even then they weren't called that yet; they called them "rockets" or "flying bombs". The term missile as we understand it today wouldnt really emerge until after World War 2. Prior to that the word was basically just a synonym for "projectile", referring to arrows, spears, cannonballs, bullets, etc.
You've hit on it with the tank parallel. It's his 1st world war trauma right on the surface. Tanks, flamethrowers, zeppelins, artillery bombardment. The bomb craters left by Grond as Morgoth crushes Fingolfin. Poisonous gas clouds over Hithlum.
The origins of those tales were written when he was convalescing. It's astonishing how he was able to sublimate such a horrific experience into something so wonderful.
The most interesting thing to me is the cognitive dissonance at play when it comes to things that relate to his war experience. He wanted to express the horror and futility of war and what power does to even the well-intentioned, but he also wanted to create a nationalist myth in which morality is uncomplicated, outsiders are pure evil, and the reader can enjoy the good guys doing violence to the bad guys with a clean conscience. His love of equating orcs with any modern people he didn't like was deeply creepy. He was both proud and ashamed of what he did. The personal stories of Frodo and Aragorn have opposite messages, but they coexist because they coexisted in Tolkien's mind.
That’s a great point, and people are complicated. However, I wanted to mention something relevant that I recently saw in an old Tolkien interview. He mentioned that just because something was in his stories, or seemed good in the stories, doesnt mean he agreed with them or supported it in the real world. The interviewer brought up the notion of hereditary monarchies which are prevalent in his works and Tolkien said he used them because they made for good stories, not because he thought that they were a superior type of government in reality. That’s just one example.
The point of Tolkien was general. To equate the craters of the Hammer of the Underworld with WWI is biographically likely but obscures the point and goal of applicability instead of analogy.
@@billvolk4236 Don't be that guy. That guy is not welcome in the Tolkien fandom. We don't analyze Tolkien like that. Have some fucking reverence. It's like shit talking the Mona Lisa because da Vinci didn't like fat girls, or whatever arbitrary hypercontemporary grievance lens of analysis you just made up 15 minutes ago. Don't bring that bullshit in this house.
@@BanjoSick Not a hint of pomposity or condescension. Well done.
Yes, JRRT knew that machines could be used for good or evil and that it depended on what was in the heart of the designer, the builder and the end user. He also recognized that it was the desire for power, money and control that drove the manufacture of war machines. Sadly, that is still true even now.
How could the Numenoreans of old have reported that the world was round when the world was flat until the Akallabeth happened and Numenor was destroyed?
That part was changed later. The version we now know, where Arda becomes round, was a later addition.
The word “factories” in the description of Numenorean settlements is very likely meant in its older way, as a trading post and warehousing area, as in the British East India and Hudson’s Bay Company era. That entire description reads like that era.
I together the same thing.
It does sound more like age of sail/pre industrial versions of trade and colonisation to me rather than leaning towards steampunk. My initial thoughts when hearing it actually went to the Dutch East India company era. This is just listening to the language, not a comment on the intent of Tolkien. The thing that stands out against it is that the air arm of the East India company left little mark on history. Maybe they had dragons there, if this happened before the Doom of Valerya 😂
Hearing about these mechanical innovations also got me thinking about Sauron's possible loss of knowledge as well as power; he pushed the Numenoreans to greater heights, but he didn't replicate these devices himself after the fall.
Not everything was done by Sauron alone, obviously, the highly skilled workforce of Númenor helped him. Clearly working with Númenoreans or Noldor was not the same as working with Orcs or Wild Southern Men.
Well Tolkien had suffered enough for a lifetime at the hands of technological advances, can't blame him for blocking it off
What do you mean ?
@@fish5671 WW1 was a DIFFERENT war, albeit the USA secession one had elements of what OP is talking about.
the word factory might actually be being used in its older context as a sort of store house for trade goods you'd find in European colonies
like the Portuguese ports in africa and india
Exactly.
As with "missiles" and "engines", the entire premise of this video seems to be founded on 20th/21st century definitions of words being used by an author firmly rooted in medieval language.
It's as childishly simplistic as people who argue that, when Gandalf said "fly, you fools" he was telling them to take the Eagle Taxi Service.
@@Murdo2112 yeah i can't help but agree. that said the mentions of iron ships and flying vehicles are kind of indisputable.
@@asdfasdf-dd9lk In early drafts of The Fall of Gondolin, there's mention of artificial dragons, made of metal, that are full of orcs and balrogs (when balrogs were less significant).
But all of that, along with the flying ships etc, were abandoned and occupy the same relation to Tolkien's more developed and mature vision of his work, as the word "gnome" for the Noldor, or Tevildo, Prince of Cats in the role that would eventually go to Sauron.
None of it, ultimately, has relevance to Tolkien's ultimate vision, beyond being interesting glimpses into his development of the tales.
@@Murdo211209:00 in the video
I always thought the Numenorians were supposed to be in allegory for the Atlantis that are comparably in our world.
I thought it was spelled out pretty plainly when the text refers to the island being called Atalante in Elvish after its destruction.
Tolkien was almost certainly using the archaic definition of a factory:A trading establishment, especially set up by merchants working in a foreign country.
Exactly what I was thinking!
Thank you!
It is believed by some that Uncle Andrew sings the praises of Numenorean (Atlantean) science in 'The Magician's Nephew'.
Does he? Can u help me find where in the book that is? I love stuff like that!
@@MerkhVision When he monologues about the origin of the magic dust.
Ooh! I hadn't thought of that!
Thanks!
Ty for all theses videos Robert. I love your voice. It’s very soothing. Love your content, too. Take care 🤗
Technomancy has always been at the heart of Lord of the Rings. After all what are the Rings of Power if not constructed items imbued with magic for domination and control? The main point for Tolkien is they are not “mass-produced” and his opinion is that a technology escaped from its original creators has gone too far.
I don’t think Tolkien understands (or wants to) real mass-production, where the power of industry is a reinforced concrete I-beam, making factory spaces as large as an architect can imagine.
Tolkien’s manufacture is in workshops, where everyone knows and is involved in the life and family of everyone who works with you. A world frozen in artisanal pre-industrialisation. So he’s creating a reality without industrialisation, but not without invention. This is fitting for a writer descended from clockmakers.
Cannons logically should exist in Middle Earth, that they don’t suggests its creator doesn’t want them to. You can say that the metallurgy is too primitive to make reliable barrels, but it clearly isn’t. The “bomb” at Helm’s Deep suggests they only don’t exist, because no-one in (or the God of) Middle Earth wants them to exist. As this is Tolkien, you have to assume this is from personal experience.
Interestingly, cannons were not used all that much in China (and neighbouring states) either, despite having significantly more experience and knowledge of gunpowder (not to mention time and metallurgy). The current prevailing idea seems to be that they were mostly stunted because the typical fortifications were too strong to be harmed by early cannons, so they mostly remained a quaint curiosity (gunpower-based rockets were also used to fire _over_ the fortifications). In contrast, Europe had very poor fortifications where cannons made a difference - and both developed in tandem, leading to cannons that were eventually able to harm even the Chinese-style fortifications.
Looking at Middle Earth, the same explanation works great for the absence of cannons. There just wasn't any military use for them - the fortifications we see are either wooden palisades at best... or nigh-on impenetrable ancient walls that require explosives to do any perceptible damage (needless to say, using explosive charges in cannons is a _very_ late development, for obvious reasons; and even Saruman couldn't do it, even with help from Sauron). During the times of more centralised power, they would also be unnecessary - e.g. the Roman standard siege technique was building up a ramp to go _over_ fortifications, and it was pretty much used every time you had enough people on hand (this of course wasn't available to feudal lords for a _long_ time; keeping so many people at arms in the first place and worse than that, keeping them fed, was beyond even the most powerful feudal lords).
Maybe cannons should have existed in Middle Earth? Perhaps. But maybe the black powder was still new, expensive and rare, not known to many except to few alchemists and wizards and because it is so very dangerous to handle those who did know its secret were hestitant to make it for widespread use? Saruman made a one single big bomb for one very specific use, he probably couldn't exactly trust his unruly orcs to handle anything more. 😁
As far as real life goes, the above mentioned China is a good example, they knew fireworks and had gunpowder weapons but it they were not that common compared to conventional bows and melee weapons. And this may come to surprise to some but Europeans were also aware of black powder during the later middle ages, around year 1300, and experimented with it. There were functional (albeit dangerous) medieval cannons and even primitive hand cannons but it was melee weapons, bows and crossbows that ruled the battlefield for many many years before gunpowder weapons finally became advanced enough that they made other ranged weapons and artilleries obsolete.
I've never seen it like that, but now it's obvious; Middle Earth has artisanal technology, not mass production. That's why elves and maiar are able to make artifacts with a certain spiritual technology or spiritual charge, you can't make spiritual/magical artifacts in mass production, you need artisans.
That's why orcs do have degrees of industrialization, because they're not spiritual, they don't get magic, they can't be skilled artisans like a noldor or a dwarven lord.
I've never seen it like that, but now it's obvious; Middle Earth has artisanal technology, not mass production. That's why elves and maiar are able to make artifacts with a certain spiritual technology or spiritual charge, you can't make spiritual/magical artifacts in mass production, you need artisans.
That's why orcs do have degrees of industrialization, because they're not spiritual, they don't get magic, they can't be skilled artisans like a noldor or a dwarven lord.
I've never seen it like that, but now it's obvious; Middle Earth has artisanal technology, not mass production. That's why elves and maiar are able to make artifacts with a certain spiritual technology or spiritual charge, you can't make spiritual/magical artifacts in mass production, you need artisans.
That's why orcs do have degrees of industrialization, because they're not spiritual, they don't get magic, they can't be skilled artisans like a noldor or a dwarven lord.
I so loved this! When I read the Histories, I took that in, and then moved on to the interpersonal interactions and the spiritual issues (that is where my mind goes and my personal interests lie). But as a trained scientist, I always assumed Feanor over his millennia had cracked nuclear energy and worked on subatomic particles and even quantum physics, which would have laid the basis for the palantiri, the lamps, even the Silmarils. And it was obvious that Melkor was a technological expert (if you filtered the writings through untrained Middle Age cultural understanding). I hadn’t given a whole lot of thought to Numenor, but it seemed obvious that they had advanced technology. Thank you, Robert, for another incredibly thoughtful presentation.
it's interesting to contrast the LOTR anti-technological worldview with Star Trek's techno optimistic view
Earindel's ship comes to mind when i think of this concept. Someone once said " to the uneducated ( or un enlightened) science is indistinguishable from magic"
I noice, even in the first chapter, that hobbits have [presumably] collapsible umbrellas. That's some pretty intricate mechanical technology.
If you think of their bumbershoots as merely more robust parasols, the mechanics become less impressive. =^[.]^=
Don't Hobbits also have indoor plumbing?
@@meganofsherwood3665 good question!
Yes, the technology is certainly part of Middle Earth, but it probably is not Shire-make. It probably comes from Dwarven craftsmen, and is not common. I think that umbrellas were mentioned in conjunction with the Mathom House, and was not considered practical gear. The few specimens might even have been relics of the pre-Smaug market of the Dale, an outlet of Dwarvish contrivances, which made its way abroad.
@@digitalnomad9985Actually, Lobelia Sackville-Baggins has an umbrella, and a foldable one, since it is said that she hides several things into it, when she comes to Bag End after Bilbo's party.
I'm sorry! Dreadnaughts and torpedoes to attack Valinor cracked me up! Talk about bringing a knife to a gunfight!
Numenoreans were the ones who brought the knife...
I suspect these ideas may have influenced Robert Jordan when writing his Wheel of Time series (I'm currently on Book 11). In that series, humanity was in a post-modern utopia where technology and magic met, but after an evil god cast his influence on this world, it fell into a brutal world war that resulted in societal collapse. The aftermath was that for thousands of years, humanity effectively reentered Medievalism and Feudalism, unconsciously rejecting the 'machines' which has so very nearly destroyed them. This sounds almost exactly what we see here.
Sword of Shannara started out as a direct Tolkien rip-off and (I believe) mutated into a post-apocalyptic tale, with dwarves and elves being future evolutions of humans after the apocalypse. I tried reading the book in junior high after reading LOTR but gave it up and never looked into the rest of the series; I found the writing terrible. (It's been 45 years but I still remember the phrase "taciturn dwarf" was used over and over. And over.)
Huh, now that u concisely summarized the backstory of Wheel of Time there, I realize how similar (but not identical) my own worldbuilding is, even though I had begun it long before I read the Wheel of Time, I’m sure some of it influenced my thoughts and retrofitted themselves into my lore lol.
But then again, the idea of a fallen lost ancient super powerful civilization is a really old idea and is prevalent in fantasy, and my original inspiration came from various other places, not Wheel of Time directly. It might be mostly coincidental by the prevalence of that trope that they’re similar. The most direct similarity to my work is probably the way people reacted to magic afterwards, rejecting it and fearing it because of the destruction it wrought, without really understanding it.
@@MerkhVisionjust consider your story as another turning of the wheel
And how did that evil god came to influence the world? By having the characters looking for a new power source and (partly) releasing him :P
It's not nearly as anti-industrial as Tolkien, though; more of a warning tale against greed in general. And how futile that warning is when it only takes a couple of greedy people to ruin the whole world.
Flying ships would sure make Rings of Power a lot more interesting. Fascinating video had no idea!
I always thought by “engines” they meant siege engines.
You usually build siege engines on site. Unless it talks about ballistae and catapults. But maybe.
I think the key is Tolkien’s absolute mastery of the English language and his ability to reach back to earlier and even archaic definitions. Factory… an establishment for traders conducting business in a foreign country. Likewise the earlier comments about engines.
I remember reading a very good article about how magical worlds always seem like medieval. In that same article, the author drew a parallel with our world today. I recall how he mentioned that technology in our time is enabling the creation of increasingly powerful, elegant, and smaller devices (not all of them, but the idea behind all technology is to improve it and make it as portable as possible). And how there is a growing global concern about how we live and protect natural resources, as there is an increasing awareness of policies and practices that are more environmentally conscious and focused on keeping the planet cleaner, safer.
In the end, he concluded that perhaps the fantasy worlds we read about in books and see in movies/series are not actually the past, but the future. A future where we can create devices so powerful that they can change the environment around us, and we can return to a state where the primary concern is the environment.
Do I think this will be the future? I don't know. But I liked how it makes a certain sense and is a passionate and positive vision of our nature.
Or maybe those are visions of our world where we have failed and have lost significant portion of our knowledge and ability to keep modern society running and nature simply took significant portion of world back. Either by deliberate mismanagement of society and economy as we see today or by "natural" depopulation as we are starting to see today.
@@MrToradragon None of the depopulation that is now going on is natural. The economic and social circumstances to make that happen have been very deliberately put in place over the past eighty years.
People who complain about fantasy not developing fast enough technologically need to realize that the exponential technological development that we see in modern times was foreign to probably 95% or more of human history
You're not wrong, but in the interest of balance, I'll point out that things were not simply stagnant before the industrial revolution, or even stagnant before, say, Rome came along. The progression of technology, yes, was more gradual, but it was still there. I think it's also just something that's hard for us to notice with our modern sense of what technological growth looks like. There are a lot of ostensibly small, iterative changes to the designs of things through history that, I think, we are liable to overlook.
Like, take the heavy plow. To us, who gives a shit? It was a plow, so what? I certainly wouldnt be able to tell the difference off the top of my head. At the time, it was a very useful tool that made farming even more productive.
You hit my nerd-bone, so I'll have to join in to a six months old conversation that probably nobody will ever see. The thing about our modern technological progress isn't just that it's so fast, but also that it's continuous. The Bronze Age Collapse set people back pretty far from the height of ancient near eastern/Mediterranean civilization, then recovery and advancement until Rome, then the fall of Rome set technology back nearly 1000 years, and only THEN do we start getting the scientific revolution and the real era of continuous progress.
My mind initially went to the aesthetic of The Last Airbender before watching this video, but now I'm wondering how Tolkien would have felt about the ideals of *Solar*Punk
I don't think he'd like Solarpunk as it is thematically incoherent, it is an aesthetic, and one that I think he would find too alien and industrial.
@@semi-useful5178 Yeah, I didn't think about the fact that SolarPunk hasn't had a big enough impact yet for people to agree on a single definition for what the term even means.
SolarPunk is what the name described. Technology that is powered by the sun, and no other source.
That is tech we are currently at the point of doing. @@LOBricksAndSecrets
@@LOBricksAndSecrets
Even steampunk doesn't make anything more than a vague aesthetic. the only one with any solid themes attached is Dieselpunk with its explorations into Authoritarianism, War, and Corruption.
There's a throughline in Tolkien's work of treating what we call magic as basically deep knowledge and understanding of something, and the ability to manipulate it. In Tolkien's world, an elven smith can become so good at smithing that they can imbue a ring with the power of fire, or an elven weaver can become so good at weaving that they can make a cloak that makes someone invisible. When Frodo and the others meet Galadriel, iirc, she comments on how the hobbits and the Men call both what the elves do and what Sauron does "magic" but she regards them as completely different things. I think that's meant to imply that there's different approaches of manipulating the world, some exploitative, and some not. In other words, to Tolkien, both technology and magic are form of "craft" which are so advanced they can't be understood by the layman, and can achieve things which seem miraculous. Whether they conform to what we in the real world see as technological and scientific is sort of besides the point, as also highlighted in the video.
yet another wonderful and informative video. You're fantastic! Keep up the amazing work!
I reckon Saruman had the steam engine. All that rumbling underground, smoke and steam constantly rising and the massive deforestation of Fangorn. He tried it in the Shire as well, which was what the great chimney was about. And what wheels was the miller's lad cleaning? Pulleys and flywheels connected to a steam engine. John W. Australia
Of course there’s also the smoke belching factory which replaced the mill in The Scouring of the Shire.
Maybe one of the best closing lines you’ve had to a video essay. Quite cheeky.
From what I understand the printing press IS in Middle Earth. Bilbo wrote an autobiography, and it’s sort of implied he published it. IDK I feel like the Hobbits are the furthest along tech wise. When you think of the Hobbits you think of the 18th century in terms of culture.
Books were very much still "published" before the printing press, it was just done by hand by a larger number of people, took longer, and therefore was more expensive.
@@Alicorn_ The way The Hobbit talked about Bilbo writing a autobiography struck me as there had to be presses in the Shire. ( the book literally calls it an autobiography) Also the Hobbits have tobacco as well as coffee.
They have running water too, don't they?
@@meganofsherwood3665 Yeah Narina seems to have the same thing going on. The Beavers, Tumnus and even the old Narnians living in caves a hundred years after the fall of their civilization in Prince Caspian are still civilized enough to have tea and crumpets!
Love your choice of topics for their depth. Keep up the great stuff!
At 2:40, I believe that Tolkien is using "factory" here in the archaic usage, meaning: "an establishment for factors and merchants carrying on business in a foreign country," as was done especially by the English and French when establishing fur trading outposts in North America; see for instance Moose Factory in Canada on James Bay.
Also the Portuguese Trading Empire made use of ‘fattoria’ - fortified warehouses with ports for trade and naval shipping.
Given that it's Tolkien the philologist, I could see it meaning either, or a bit of both
Wow that Tolkien letter than introduces the Silmarilion is seeming more and more prophetic. It’s like wise people can see the trends in the world and where they will lead.
This is fascinating content. Despite what you say that technology isn't inherently bad, accordint to Tolkien, I get a didferent vibe anr message about him from the totality or the video
I see what you mean, but although it’s not clarified, I think Tolkien was specifically singling out certain types of technology, not all tech in general. Just like he showed examples of both good and bad magic, and it was mentioned in the video that the intention behind it is what counts. I’m sure Tolkien would approve of technology who’s purpose is to help, heal, and protect, and things like that. I don’t even think he was against flying machines in general, just those that were used as weapons of war.
Tolkien was deeply biased by his experience. Thats why he created world where people somehow had abundance of food without artificial fertilizers thus making their pre-industrial lifestyle significantly more pleasant than in the real world, thus removing the immediate need that the common folks would feel for a new technology. And when it comes to warfare, he saw people getting shot, or blown to pieces by artillery. He didnt see the brutality of a medieval melee with pikes, maces and axes. If he did, Im very much sure that Anduril would be a repeating rifle.
The interesting thing about this also pertains to the questions "Do orcs have families, and are they irredeemable." I think the fact that in The Lord of the Rings at least it is true that evil cannot create. it can only destroy and corrupt mean that Morgoth could not have devised those war machines himself. Either the Elves and Men were bringing them to war first and he was stealing their designs and building his own, the same way he used Celebrimbor to make the rings and Numinor to make more ships, or else he must have someone good on his side designing these things for him. It's possible it was an Elf or Man, but I like to think of it as a rare Orc who became more inventive, designed something new out of his drive to keep his ally Orcs alive in battle because he genuinely cared for their lives, but was ultimately kept captive and forced to do Morgoth's bidding as this Orc later learned how much destruction his creations brought to others.
This, I think, is the most interesting character to explore among those that might be shows as Orcish perspective characters. Sure a Lurts is fun from time to time, but as a villain. If Rings of Power were to explore the concept of this Orc as a free thinking and more kind Orc at first and tells the story as he comes to terms with the fact that other Orcs are not so kind as he had become, and eventually in mourning for their corruption quits making the technology to save his friends and accepts their deaths only to be leashed by Sauron and forced to continue the work instead. In The Rings of Power season 2 we do see a similarly good Orc story explored which seemed rough at first but ends with good writing and I think ends faithful to Tolkien (Spoilers ahead on the details).
The orcs in Season 2 are shown to betray Adar their father, kill him violently, and actively choose Sauron mostly out of a growing disdain or hate for their father rather than a love for Sauron. Mostly for Sauron it was respect that they felt, especially after killing him themselves and seeing him return to life and power. But seeing the Orcs unanimously choose to murder their father and side with Sauron is the very story Tolkien would have approved as it mirrors the fall of Lucifer and the other angels as well as the corruption of sinners that choose to do evil and hate God their father, crucifying Jesus who is both the son of God and God himself. Adar dies with his arms held out to the sides by his children and grandchildren in Jesus pose, stabbed to death y others of his children, and as he falls to the ground they drop him naturally again in the arms spread Jesus pose. For the Orcs Adar was Jesus, but he wasn't able to die for their sins because when they killed him none were repentant. When later in the episode one of his children shows doubt that they did the right thing, Sauron executes him before he can sew that doubt among the legion. Thus this story in The Rings of Power has shown exactly why the Orcs are so evil by starting off showing their children and wives, and ending showing them as the Orcs we know from The Lord of the Rings.
Anyway, this story of the engineer Orc is another that would fit well in that. By showing the goodish Orc father in Adar, and the good Orc grandchild in the engineer, a light would be shown on the evil Orcs to reveal their motivation. And the dark hearts of the Orcs would be revealed in that moment to be as corrupt and evil as we are lead to believe. They choose evil and destruction unanimously, and though they could rally together to end that evil and destruction in rebellion to the shadow, they continue to persist in that evil for desire to do evil and no other thing. The engineer weeps as his inventions are used to sew further destruction, and eventually must be chained and tortured to continue his work.
4:25 remember that Tolkien said his books are "history" and not fantasy. This means Tolkien was an "ancient astronaut theorist" but instead of it being aliens, they were Atlanteans (Numenoreans)
Read Graham Hancocks books for more info on historical Atlantis
I've been waiting for one of the UA-cam Tokienists to do this episode, for years. Brilliant! Two thumbs up! Without this information about industrialization, mechanization, and blind technological overindulgence, most people don't think any farther than Saruman cutting down trees, and Ted Sandyman's mill becoming -- evidently -- steam powered. Professor Tolkien's universe is magic and pixie dust without the knowledge that it contains machinery, too -- but machinery isn't the star of the Lord of the Rings ... not even the clear elements of advanced technology like wizard staffs or Palantiri or Rings of Power, for that matter. The Professor's mythology for the British people was personal, agenda-driven, and highly moral. In the Lord of the Rings, we get such a tiny sliver of all that Professor Tolkien believed and wanted to say. You have just outed some -- in my opinion -- critical elements that help not only deconstruct his complex philosophy, but also his religious views and beliefs, with which far too many modern enthusiasts do not want to be bothered. I'm glad we didn't really have a steampunk Lord of the Rings (who needs Orcs with AK-47's), but the dual-edged swords of progress and invention are a couple of the most foundation themes underpinning all of Professor Tolkien's mythology. I am so glad you hauled them out for everyone to see and ponder. Well done! I salute your scholarship! 👍👍
To me, Numenor was always analogous to the British Empire. Blessed by the Powers and splendidly isolated, but that wasn't good enough. The Numenoreans were driven to conquer and colonize. All of which led to disaster for Numenor, just as it did for England, though JRRT didn't live long enough to see the full horror of it. Tolkien never considered himself 'British'. One can wonder if JRRT blamed his father's death upon the existence of the Empire.
What a fascinating concept
In the art credits, you missed the illustration on the left at 8:13, which is from the original edition of Twenty Thousand Leagues Under the Sea. It depicts Captain Nemo showing Professor Arronax the engine room of the Nautilus.
Tolkein was touching on ancient advancement and regression in our world. Look at rome 2000 years ago, how far they got and then in the near blink of an eye they collapsed and human society regressed centuries, technology was lost and progress didn't resume for 1000 years. So saying that at one point the mumenorians were this advanced and then basically over night it all vanished and was swallowed by the sea and time, shows how the age we live in now could just as easily vanish beneath the dust and dirt of the earth and be forgotten to future men.
Well, there goes my peaceful sleep for the foreseeable future, lol
9:14 Holy Moly!! I had no idea J--Mann from Mushroomhead was a Darklord. That artwork could be right from their 2014 look. Seriously, right down to the detail on the helmet and facial 🤔.
You should expand your channel to cover The Cosmere. Mistborn and Stormlight Archive are both partially built on the premise of society advancing and they're better books than ASOIAF without a doubt.
A lot of people think metal-clad ships are relatively modern (1860s onward). But Frigates in the 18th Century had copper cladding on the bottom. The US built a few for the Barbary Pirates in an effort to keep them molif. I imagine Numenorean Drommonds could have had such metal cladding.
That makes a lot more sense
Imagine if someone with Hollywood studio money actually bothered to represent Numenor, not just a generic fantasy island with giant statues.
Amazon’s representation was not very impressive
How would you present it?
@@macrosense My point exactly. This is not even in the top 10 of the problems with that show, but the only difference between Numenor and the "Southlands", as far as we could tell, were some giant statues and cleaner buildings.
@@kingofcards9 The differences in technology and culture between the men of Middle Earth and Numenor should be obvious. Have them communicate via palantir, so they can talk to the home base even when they're off conquering Middle-Earth. Give them massive ships, enough for an occupying force. Maybe steam- or coal-powered, or at least some impressive sailing vessels. Show us a printing press, maybe, aqueducts and indoor plumbing. Go into a Numenorean hospital and show off the fantastic healing herbs they've discovered, far better that what they'll have in Gondor in the distant future. We shouldn't have to be TOLD that Numenor is humanity at its peak, we should see it in every scene. Give the royals some mithril jewelry, since mithril was available on the island. Show off some classic architecture with a distinct half-elven/half-human style, especially in Andunie, and then the technologically advanced but awful-looking towers of the future. And when it's time to build up your characters, show how under all of that, they're terrified of death and willing to buy whatever snake oil might prolong their lives a little. Show off their arrogance when they hunt down other humans and steal their stuff. Give us the Meneltarma, overgrown with weeds while Sauron goes all out with his temple of evil. Show us that this is a blessed race running heedless to its own destruction.
@@kingofcards9 I would have had Guyladriel in an Bumble-bee-exo-suit going to Angband and take out Glaurung
I didn't read 'engines' as being 'engines' in the modern sense, until I heard of the notion JRR had and abandoned of a Numenor with airships, and that the Orcs and dark powers built things like tanks ( there's abandoned versions of LOTR that mention the Orcs having tank-like machines ), since when I have wondered. The abandoned description of the Numenorean airships - that they were actually aiming for something more than airships - almost sounds like they were trying to have a sort of space program. I'll admit, I like the idea that Numenor was more technologically advanced, it's an interesting take.
This brought to mind the chapter The Scouring of the Shire at the end of The Return of the King. Saruman and his Men have 'industrialized' the Shire, making it a reflection of Barad-dur and Isengard. Merry, Pippen, and the gang wage war to take back control, and then the Hobbits cleanse the Shire of those works.
And now that brings to mind the future Ages of Middle-Earth, that connect into our present day (saw that in a video from somewhere). How far was it into the future of Middle-Earth before the achievements and skills of Numenor were seen again?
And here I thought I knew much about Tolkien. This vid is very informative. One of your best. Thanks for that.
Oh ... dear.
The modern use of factory is not what Tolkien meant, he was talking about the 17th - 18th Century use of the term where the East India Company settlements in India were "factories" gathering in hand crafted goods from the hinterlands. Equally "engines" does not in any way imply steam engines because engines of war meant anything from crossbows through to battering rams, galleys, sailing ships and trebuchets.
I think you're probably right, but this is also Tolkien. It's not like he wouldn't be aware of both the antiquated and modern meanings of a word
Oh... dear.
That could be, but I'm not sure how you could know what Tolkien precisely meant here, especially since we're considering text that he ultimately decided not to include in published versions. It's quite plausible that he played around with explicit industrialization in the stories and then later decided it wasn't needed or pushed the story too close to modern realism, just as he never spelled out a highly codified magic system.
What fascinating insights into the worlds of Tolkien! Countless thanks for sharing with us all! 👍👍 10⭐
I'm an illustrator who's devoted quite a bit of time to what the engines of flame, in great serpents, who upon breaching gondolins gates, emptied orcs from them. I've sketched many tanks/troop carriers blended with a dragon/serpent form. I always figured the ambiguity around them lent itself to at least a comparable impression one might get oh, say, on the battlefields of ww1 seeing a tank for the first time. It walks the line of machine, organic, and/or magic and I love how open to interpretation they are!
It also gives me a way out of a more impractical design.😉
Alas for the fall of Gondolin.
I think Christoffer is wrong about the flying ships only appearing in the case of Numenor. Vingilot is used to slay Ancalagon the black in the first age while Numenor arises in the second age if Im not mistaken?
It sounds like he means technological flying ships specifically. Vingilot was sent by the Valar through the Door of Night, entering the heavens and empowered by a Silmaril. This is magic rather than craft, whereas the Numenorean flying ships flew via lift and thrust.
@@davidshaffer511at least, as far as we know. Wasn't there a quote somewhere about Elves not seeing a difference between "craft" and "magic"?
@@meganofsherwood3665 Sure, but Christopher Tolkien isn't an elf.
Or less glibly, Tolkien does seem to draw some kind of distinction there, as industrial capabilities are consistently associated with evil in his stories, even though doing the same sorts of things with magic isn't. The power of the Valar sank Beleriand, and this is viewed as tragic but not evil. Yet if a mechanical weapon had done that, we can be quite sure it would be orcish and eloquently reviled in the text.
The word missile has been used for a while to refer to spear/javelins, they could also be kind of like Roman candles
This video was very interesting. I haven’t made it all the way through the Silmarillion yet but I cherry picked sections about Numenor before Rings of Power aired just to get familiar with the setting & people, & I never absorbed the info that Numenor had powered ships & flying machines. Sometimes I can read a passage & it just doesn’t enter my mind adequately to realize just what it says. Your vudeo made the references much clearer & I love the idea of Steampunk engines! Thanks.
Great video, going to the heart of Tolkiens worldview and probably even to his creative process.
I've read those early versions of the tales of "Mechanized Númenor" and while they make for a fascinating what-if tale, it doesn't really fit with the rest of the Legendarium. The Númenor we got is a much more fitting one.
LONG AGO .. I noticed that Numenor, at the height of it's power was at a technological level equivalent to that of the final publication dote of LotR - about 1955
Missiles that fly for many miles with a great roaring sound that do not miss theor mark, is a phrase I remember
And the steel bows of the Numenoreans - they actually existed up until about 1980 & I still have one ...
I believe bilbo during the Hobbit mentions a smell of gunpowder after Gandalf blows up some goblins in goblin town. I believe he also compares a sound he here's to a pop gun, which is of course a toy gun. There is also a reference to a clock at one point. For him to reference all these things it would imply that they exist and are common enough for Bilbo to be familiar with them.
I think some slight steampunk elements would've worked very very well in Middle Earth! Especially with Dwarves and Orcs. With flying ships I think every battle would've looked totally different but some certain tools, weaponry and architecture would've worked. I mean imagine the Rohirrim riding through the Mark and two riders and catch a horde of Orcs with a flexible metal rod... 😂
I really enjoyed this! Awesome job In Deep Geek! Really made me think! I enjoyed that.
Being familiar only with The Hobbit, LOTR and the books not (explicity) set in middle earth - Smith of Wootton Major, Farmer Giles of Ham, etc.) I found this very interesting and revealing. It makes explicit what is implied in the works that I do know - that labour has its own value, and to use technology (whether magical or metallurgical) as a 'shortcut' is destructive of the user because it is against the 'natural' (or god-given) order.
Thank You for putting these elements in perspective. As much as I love the films and the work of Christopher Tolkien to publish more of his father's work, I fear that in some ways one small flaw that came with both efforts was an overemphasis or revisionism about these elements and a more anti-any-tech/industry vibe that may slightly more betray where Christopher was as opposed to JRR himself, who made his points but never belaboured or obsessed-on this one.
Fascinating stuff! Thanks for sharing your research.
Factories in this context refers to trade outposts of the colonial expansion of europe. If you read a history book, you can see that for example, the trade outposts the portugese established in india were called factories. Engines refers to engines of war, like siege towers, catapults and so on.
To the faithful 'In Deep Geekians'; I am not new to LOTR, but am to the books - I have just finished all of tolkein's work and asking for suggestions on other similar novels... though one accepts that such a matter class in writing can never be replicated
The Wheel of Time novels would probably be a popular and good recommendation! Just a heads up, the beginning of the first book intentionally is very similar to the beginning of the Fellowship of the Ring, but it soon after diverges into more original territory as the author brings in more of his own ideas instead of continuing to follow the tropes.
I'd suggest Ursula K. LeGuin's 'Earthsea' books. There's the original trilogy from the early 1970s, 'A Wizard of Earthsea', 'The Tombs of Atuan', and 'The Farthest Shore' which is the story of the magician Ged. Many years later she wrote two further novels 'Tehanu', and its sequel 'The Other Wind', and 'Tales from Earthsea' a short story collection. These are well worth reading, and after Middle Earth, the world of Earthsea is one of the best imaginary worlds.
Then there's Robert Holdstock's 'Ryhope Wood' series 'Mythago Wood', 'Lavondyss', 'The Bone Forest', 'The Hollowing', 'Merlin's Wood', 'Gate of Ivory', and 'Avilion'. The series is set in a magical forest, which like Doctor Who's Tardis is much much bigger on the inside and people who enter it sometimes never return. It appears on a map to only be three square miles in size but as you travel into the wood you travel back into Britain's mythic past, and it's inhabited by beings drawn from that mythic past. The series is well worth checking out, though it's a cycle rather than a series.
For a simple standalone novel, check out Lud-in-the-Mist by Hope Mirrlees
What I like about both series is that they are great fantasy series, but not trying to be like Tolkien in the slightest. Tolkien created the greatest fantasy series there has been, but subsequent writers in the genre often just try to copy him - with IMHO very mixed results.
I would argue that there is an important difference between the use of magic and the use of machines though in Tolkien: while magic is used both by good and evil characters, machines are solely used by evil characters. Morgoth, Sauron, Saruman and the later Numenoreans use them, but none of the protagonist factions.
Brilliant as ever Robert
GREAT video. One of your best. Thank you.
I absolutely love the idea of how discovering that the world is round is tied to the abandonment of gods and faith. As if knowledge, or lack of mystery, is the killer of religion. Which it is. You can either be religious or smart. Love it.
I think much of the imagery of what the monsters could do in Middle Earth was derived from Tolkien's traumatic experiences at the Battle of the Somme. I have known for a long time that Tolkien had many misgivings about industrialization and its reckless damage to both people and the ecosystems of the earth. I share his misgivings.
Yes, but it was also an inherent bias, because he lived through the misery of industrial warfare, but have never seen the misery of pre-industrial warfare. He spoke through the mouth of his character Faramir, and described the ancient weapons like swords and bows as something not to be admired, but also as something usable, especially for defense. A more modern equipment should also fall into that category, as both can be used, and both can be misused. But he didnt see the world where people bash one another with maces (even though that happened a few times even in WW1), he only saw the world where people shot at each other with rifles and cannons. So he developed a bias that from both a historical standpoint and from a moral standpoint is difficult to argue for.
The criticism of fantasy fictional societies never evolving beyond "medieval" technology (especially in the realm of warfare) is, to my mind, somewhat unfair. Actual human society did not move that much over thousands of years from the dawn of civilisation to around 1500AD. Gunpowder was only just beginning to have a significant effect upon warfare at that point. We are nowadays too used to a rapid technological change to appreciate how slowly things moved between Ur and Elizabethan London. The industrialised era is a small timeslot within the span of human experience, about 3%.
Moreover, throughout those six or seven millennia, technologies - some of them advanced and complex - did exist, created by the great craftsmen of their ages. Sometimes at near-industrial intensities, but often rare and expensive, for the use of great people only. Much as with the important artifacts in fantasy tales.
What I want to know is, how are potatoes a thing in the Shire when Middle Earth is clearly based on Western Europe and potatoes weren't introduced to Europe until the 16th century?
After Preston Jacobs' "Is A Song of Ice and Fire post-apocalyptic sci-fi?", we now get In Deep Geek's "Is Lord of the Rings post-apocalyptic sci-fi?", and I'm _so_ here for it. 😁
That’s crazy! Wow, I never knew he had put this in the lore
This is one of the things about power in LOTR that I always felt was compelling. In Tolkien's soft magic world, the source of the power was mysterious, be it magic or machine. Some might say the distinction is irrelevant, but I would say that it is "not for us to know". The great wisdom of the ancient might understand it, but it was so advanced that nobody else in the stories would, and that gave it incredible, sacred, dangerous impact. The movies actually summed up this feeling quite well in the scene where Wormtongue brings fire a little too close to Saruman's black powder bomb, even if it was a little on the nose.
The real reason that the tanks and air ships weren't prominent is because when the Numenoreans first started producing them, Galadriel sensed their production, swam to Numenor from Middle Earth, and utterly destroyed each machine with a single punch. Then she went to the factories and destroyed each factory with a single punch.
So great was the number of factories and war machines, that for six days and six nights Galadriel punched without ceasing until at last she punched the great factory Durngrath, the Mother of Factories, atop Meneltarma. And just like that, Numenor's industrial revolution and its war machine were destroyed.
And then she stole their horse and rode into the sunset xD
You forgot the part where she insulted the people in charge and they immediately submitted to her will
Totally accurate. 😂
Everything that we think we made for the common man to survive is actually a product of war. Take super glue for example It was not made for the sole fact of keeping things together tight and strong but also was for in the military and they needed something to be strong enough to be used on the moment's notice. It was also used them to seal wounds in the minutes of battle without any supplies.
I had not thought of the opening question before, thanks.
I read that passage in "The Fall of Gondolin" just this morning!
I'll add that some technology was painted positivly, after all hobbits did have mills and forges, the difference is that those where used for agriculture, make tools and grind wheat. The hobbits didn't go further because that was enougth. Adding Gandlaf's fireworks, we can say that technology in arda is good so long as it's purpose is tocreate or bring joy. The hobbit and annexes also refer the dwarves developping crafting skills in the ways of architecture and making the likes of aqueducs.
Tolkien always shows and rarely tells. Something ever more difficult to find.
That’s a great point!
Many fantasy civilisations dont see the need for such developement. Magic fulfills the role of technology there. Why use steam engines when you have griffins flying around, and portals at the mages academy provide long distance travel for the affluent? In the healing arts the advances of the chirurgeons science take second place to healing priests who do it far more efficiently as per the power of their gods. Regrown limbs, no problem, donate a large swath of forest to your friendly druids! Only the villains need tech. So shown in Tolkiens work. Saruman as a captain of industry as well as a leading wizard, he knows what he is doing. Far more advanced than Sauron, if you ask me. That one relies too much on brute force, to satisfy his need for domination!
Everything Saruman did was in IMITATION of Sauron (Sauron did it first - well, Morgoth did it first, but Sauron did it before Saruman). Tolkien states that Isengard and Saruman's forces were just a child's copy, a plaything, compared to Sauron.
I've read enough Cyberpunk to know, swords are incredibly practical. Even and especially in high-tech environments.
To quote Sean Connery in The Hunt for Red October: "There are things in there that don't react well to bullets."
Besides, you used a picture of a wheelbarrow. I worked on farms and construction sites. Both with their own advanced industrial technology. Guess what they both still use?
I wondered, when I first read TLOTR, why middle earth remained in a medieval level of technology for over 6,000 years. In that same amount of time, Western civilization went from clay tablets to space stations. I mean, they invented chemical batteries and steam powered machines by the time of the Romans. They just didn't go anywhere with these potential technologies because slave labor was cheap and available. 😢 I figured finally that the constant attacks by Sauron, directly or indirectly, caused a cultural and technological stagnation throughout the 2nd and 3rd ages.
Development of technology in real world is more complex than linear from clay to space station (even thou I would say that LHC in CERN is greater feat of engineering). You have to take in account number of variables, like several collapses several "world wars", number of people, ease of communication between nations and societal structure. The fact that we went from basic mechanics, evil spirits and writing on parchment to nuclear fission, fusion and electronic communication, does not mean that it would happen everywhere, we just had extremely favourable conditions for that. Especially favourable was collapse of medieval order in general crisis that led to rise of middle class in western Europe. But first we had to had medieval society that was not of despotic nature as societies in other parts of the world were. E.g. In japan their own "general crisis" - sengoku period let not to rise of freer class system, but to more rigid one. And in period of 250 years that the west went from basic technology to steamships, mass manufacturing, railways and basic understanding of electricity and magnetism, they remained more or less on same level of technological development. Even thou they developed beautiful arts.
Now the situation would be perhaps similar if outcome of 30 years war was different. For example if the Europe would not be split between Protestants and Catholics, but Catholics would totally won, I have no doubt that the development would be significantly stalled if not reverted. I don't think they would be keen on printing of books, they would most likely try to assert firm control over education and prevent any future "heresy". Yet they would most likely heavily invest in architecture and arts as sort of way how to display power of god to common people. Little bit in a same way they did it in Czech Lands after 30 years war, the result is that up to these days many towns and villages have churches far greater than they would ever need and the whole land is dotted with various chapels and wayside shrines. On the other hand it is hard to say how they would act if there would be no competition.
So Spelljamming is in the histories of Lord of the Rings, excellent. I have always had some difficulty talking other D&D players in to Spelljamming because of the lack of imagination with Fantasy settings but also being part of a crew is not the same as being part of an adventuring group in most players minds. We all resist authority even in our role playing. Star Trek type thing is also not what D&D players run to because of the lack of free decision making. I hope One Piece helps change peoples minds on this. It just takes some creative problem solving to deal with travel to and from a ship in space and the fantasy world planet. Plus it makes these strange fantasy planets feel more a part of something far greater. Pirates seemed to enjoy the freedoms a pirate ship provided so it can interest players too. What your saying can be applied to this D&D issue as well. Spelljamming is a fantasy setting. Like I always thought The Black Hole movie is a dungeon in space complete with undead. 😆