Speed Control for Shaded Pole and PSC motors; How they work!: 039
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- Опубліковано 12 сер 2017
- Explaining the speed control method used in common fans... Specifically shaded pole motors, and permanent split capacitor (PSC) motors.
This was a common question during my "How Motors Work" series which can be found here.
Watch the Whole Series Here.
• Introduction To Motors...
If you want to chip in a few bucks to support more content like this, please visit my patreon page.
/ jeremyfieldingsr
My website www.jeremyfielding.com
Technical Notes and Corrections
Nothing to report yet.
Resources used in this series
Video references
AC Motors
• AC MOTORS
Motor Basics (three phase)
• Video
AC Motors and Generators
• AC MOTORS AND GENERATORS
DC Motors and Generators
• DC MOTORS AND GENERATORS
Brushless DC Motors and Brushed DC Motors Explained
• Brushless DC Motors an...
What is Ground
• What is Ground? Earth ...
What is electricity
• Video
How to read a schematic
rimstar.org/science_electronic...
• How to Read a Schematic
Websites
www.studyelectrical.com/2016/0...
www.leeson.com/TechnicalInform...
www.johnsonelectric.com/en/res...
motors/principle-of-operation
rimstar.org/science_electronic...
www.usmotors.com/TechDocs/Elec...
Induction motor as a Generator
www.usmotors.com/TechDocs/ProF...
Books
Single -Phase Motor series number 723 by Edward Amrein
Not on amazon.
Amazon affiliate links
DC Theory by NJATC
amzn.to/2vMRwDn
AC Theory (get the used one, don’t spend $100) by NJATC
amzn.to/2wjgaNA
Three Phase Motors Series number 724 by Edward Amrein
amzn.to/2fUo217
Innova Multimeter 3320
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Tachometer RPM gauge
amzn.to/2x35Bv6 - Навчання та стиль
Dude, I think you might be the only person on the internet who managed to explain PSC Motors in an elegant way. Thank you for making this video! Many forums shall benefit from seeing this.
Thank you for this! I've been looking at ways to control speed of a whole house fan using a remote, and options are very limited. I've read some resources on PSC motors, but this video is the only one that explained how these motors work on a practical level with restricting the coil, and it finally made it click for me.
Jeremy... you sir, are a wizard. Thanks, and keep doing what you're doing!!
This is great. I had spent a lot of time googling around trying to find an easy to follow explanation of how to regulate shaded pole motors and this is perfect. Thanks!
found you yeasterday and have watched a 1/4 of your videos. Love it. Learn a ton. Never would of thought to save all these components and repurpose them the way you do. And you are great at explaining everything in a really basic simple way.
Understand, love the videos, more informative than others I've viewed.
Another awesome video. Thank you for answering my question from last week.
Absolutely! It was a great question. I just wish I had thought to mention it in the previous video.
You are so good at explaining stuffs. Thank you for your efforts
Thanks again Jeremy, I constantly struggle to remember the details and frequently discover your material in my searches.
I always enjoy a new video from you. I appreciate all of the work you put into each video. Thank you and take care. Paul.
+ThePwcj thank you!
My man awesome video. I really learned what I can and can't do with induction motors.
Thanks a million
Happy to do it.
I like your intellectual vocabulary. Great videos buddy
Awesome video, a year later after you uploaded and I’m so intrigued by them. Trying to learn everything I can. Thank you
thanks for the video,
keep up the good work. the knowledge that you have are a blessing to us!!
Dang, wish you were my neighbor. It'd be so cool to be able to hang out with you. I guess that's what the videos are for.
Thank you. We do have our virtual community right here. It works 24 hours a day. Come by anything and we can talk!
Kento Wakai Agree!
What a brilliant video. In my motor course they dogmatically stated that by adjusting applied voltage (or winding turn numbers) to control AC induction motor speed is ineffective, especially in shaded pole motors. With a brief practical demo, you showed that even though it isn't great in terms of efficiency, it does have practical application. Certainly it's a lot easier than changing frequency, though I suppose by increasing slip, the motor shifts over to a region of the torque curve that draws more current and puts more heat on the windings. Evidently for low torque applications like a fan, that works OK.
I not even have a workshop but this videos are so awesome!!
Thanks for the video.
The component you mentioned is a Teccor brand X25783 triac.
Thank you!
thanks again from aus. informative and concise and a pleasure to watch and listen!
+Gary Rogers awesome
You're like my morning coffee 😅 thanks for the edu bits, Jeremy!
I agree with you about the terminology with the term shorting the windings....
Thank you!! I looked all over the internet for a detailed explanation about regulating speed on this type of motor and ended up here. Funny thing is I was already subscribed to your channel but somehow missed this video.
I really enjoy your videos. Thanks
Thanks for sharing. I find your videos very informative.
Your videos are an extra class. They belong to 'Look, hear and learn'. Should be collected for education.
Regards from Germany.
+Alfred Neumann Thank You! It is so wonderful to know people from all over the world enjoy this stuff as much as I do
I used to service Record players in the 80's and a large amount of those used Shaded-pole synchronous motors.
Jeremy, As a curious thinking guy, but with an automotive background, a single speed shaded pole motor, simply uses mutual induction but to a rotor. Now I have a devious idea. On lawnmowers, snowblowers and most small engines, they imbed a pair of strong magnets into the flywheel. It’s only purpose is to force mutual induction into a laminated core, but a number of wire turns creates high voltage at very low amperage. This spark timed by the flywheel.
What happens if we take the outside diameter of the flywheel and cut the shaded pole motor to use mutual induction to produce electricity? This is the arrangement of large lawn equipment that has lights on them. With a tight air gap, a shaded pole frame cut to fit the outside diameter and use a wheat-bridge rectifier to produce DC voltage, it could be used to operate LED strips in housings or simple double faced tape to shine light on the work on our short winter days.
Now, with an unknown number to wire turns, ran thru a rectifier (Slight voltage drop) but perhaps a regulator for 12 VDC. It can be $200 more to purchase a light kit or more installed at the factory. This could be a cheap interesting experiment just to see the voltage produced (120 Vac / 12 VDC) and the current should equal the fans usage at speed. Easy to operate LED lights using current limiting, or bulb operated lights depending on output.
Curious, daylight savings makes it dark to mow or bag leaves to till into garden. Grow dirt!
Thanks again for the video and clear info. I have a big fan, I plan on drilling holes into the sintered bronze bearing, tap and install grease fittings. So I can get it working again!
Thank you that was a big help on my project!
I wish you had been my Grade 10 Science teacher! :) Glad you made these videos.
great videos, as a student without machines and devices I can afford to take apart, these are super helpfull
awesome video, always enjoy your videos!
Thanks Jeremy, well done and very helpful
Great video, good work
I have used a regular dimmer for old incandescent bulbs lamp, to control my fan speed, it works great.
very well explained, thank you!
Wel done! Great vid!
Thanks for uploading these videos. Top quality very informative. :-)
It's been a great experience hanging out with you this afternoon Jeremy, such interesting info, things I needed to know. To my knowledge the motors from the front loader washing machines have the most torque to drive anything even an electric car in my opinion but don't know enough about it. How about one of those with a spead controller driving a single phase motor to generate power. Some sort of demonstation of that would be interesting to watch.
Nice. Thank you you're video. im about to install a dimer light switch to my industrial floor fan
Another great video Thank you
As always interesting and useful video!
+BUK thanks
Interesting! I made a fan out of an old record player shaded pole motor. To control speed, I used the simplest possible thing: incandescend light bulbs in series to reduce the voltage.
You’re awesome, Jeremy! Thank you so much for this video :]
Great stuff!
Thank you kind sir. Keep doing what you're doing. This is from the Caribbean Sea, Trinidad and Tobago. Your videos are divine gifts my friend. They spark all sorts of DIY projects into my head... what type of motor/would I use for a wind turbine generator ?
I started watching your video's about 2 months ago. Now I have about 6 electric motors. Thanks
😂 my job here is done ✅
I know a video is possible for single phase but man trying to plan one out is working my brain over hard. There is so much to work out. It's fun to think about but there are better solutions that are going to be cheaper.
Great video sir...
The star-delta wiring for 3 phase motors use 2 contactor to switch between the to modes after the initial startup phase set with a timer. interesting setup. there are a few youtube videos about this.
Great video!
Got some wheelchair motors and going to use them on a project soon. Thanks for the videos it help's me a lot.
+Robert Evans thanks! sounds fun. What is the voltage? Just curious if they are 12-24 volt?
24 volts
Me too. What are your plans with yours? I plan on making a motorized under the car dolly. With tilting neck and head lift for comfort.
A wood lathe with VS control...something simple, but i am digging your idea...
@@CSSIandAssociate How did your automatic nose crusher turn out? Would love to see a build!
Great video..
I need this tee shirt: "No, I'm not an engineer, but I've watched all of Jeremy Fielding's videos." 😁
Brilliant video. I’m currently going through “Rotating Machines” (including induction Motors) for my studies.
This video was very helpful.
Well explained and great for visualising. Thanks :D
You skipped over the oscillator mechanism! Another great video and an excellent series. Thanks for sharing your knowledge!
+Kevin Bowker lol I forgot!
Great content!!!
I am using a hair dryer as a forge blower for blacksmithing. I have been following your motor series and appreciate how helpful it is. I am hoping to built a belt sander out of a treadmill motor at some point. My main concern regarding this video, is does this mean I can hook a small fan, such as a hair dryer with a cold setting that bypasses the heat element, up to a fan dimmer switch? Off hand I don't know why it wouldn't work, but I don't understand enough about what you are teaching yet to have much confidence I am not missing something. Thanks Jeremy. Keep up the good work
like my air compressor. good tips in this video.
You mentioned some "free energy guys" earlier and what they're doing is probably of great interest to most of your viewers. Me for one would really like a self running electric producer but don't know enough to build a good one.
Thank you, Sir. I learned a lot. :)
It's an internally triggered triac, so no separate diac. It's manufactured by Teccor which is now owned by Littlefuse. Apparently the X25783 was a house number part made for Leviton. Hard to find a datasheet specifically for the X25783, but datasheets for the equivalent Q2101LT are around.
Thank you!
Steve Hodge how did you go about identifying the house number maker etc? Are there any like secret databases anywhere to decode house chips or just custom print jobs on generic ICs?
I just did some google sleuthing. I don't know of any databases that track this sort of thing.
Thank you!
Jeremy, I'm a big fan of your channel and people say I talk too much!
lol Thank you!
Hey Jeremy in the future can you include a schematic for each type of motors you take apart.
Thanks
Thank you so much for your videos! They have rekindled my inner maker and I have started on a project to make a circulating fan for my wood stove using a salvaged PSC.
I threw away the speed control switches (without thinking about the fact I could reuse them).
My question is, what is a cheap & effective speed control to use with it? I was thinking of just using a hood fan switch but was curious what you might use.
You're lucky to live in a place where you need a cooling fan! I removed the cooling fan from our microwave which died recently! Interestingly the plate rotation motor is tapped from the cooling fan winding to give its 30 volt supply.
Jeremy, you’re a spectacular presenter of some much appreciated knowledge.
Can you tell me what the most economical way to generate between 5000 and 20000 watts and put it through a motor that will be used in a marine electric repower?
I have a 100 lbs. 15 horsepower 3 phase AC motor and a 6 hp dc 12 volt 400 amp motor. Either of these motors can push my 27 ft 7000 lbs sailboat. It currently gets around with a 4 stroke gas guzzling 9.9hp Honda outboard. I was thinking of replacing a used typical outboard upper unit motor I acquired with the 12 volt 6 hp electric dc motor I have and doing inboard power with a motor between 10 and 50 hp directly in line with the drive shaft. I’d really appreciate advice on the cheapest sensible ways to power and control a motor that can spin a shaft fast and with high torque. Should I throw out the AC motor or is there a way to use it from my DC battery banks to 230 / 460 3 phase AC without breaking the bank? Cheap inverters or vfds, or ways of getting around a VFD to generate 460 volts and 20 amps at varying hertz frequencies to control speed? Thanks
Will the light dimmer switch control the fan speed of the second motor, the one with the capacitor?
Thanks
thanks
Thank you! This is useful info for me. Do you have a video about changing the speed of a high torque motor? If you do, I may have even watched it but forgot. I'm terrible that way, haha.
+Johnny Crochet the type of motor matters a lot. Have you seen part one of this? ua-cam.com/video/tXJOtWPPRwE/v-deo.html. I recommend you watch the series. I have one series on how to wire motors and one on how the different motors work. It's all listed on my channel
I've been experimenting with a shaded pole AC fan motor. I know if I remove the two shaded pole copper loops that the motor will still run if I start it by hand because it still has 2 magnetic poles working on opposite sides of the rotor. What I'm trying to find out is that if I physically remove one of those magnetic poles if the motor can still run under no load, of course it will have to be hand started. I've sawed the stator frame in half to do this and removed one side. So far no luck in getting it to run. I have demonstrated that a synchronous AC motor (with a permanent magnet rotor) will run in this configuration. I'm just trying to see if it is impossible for an asynchronous AC motor with a solid rotor to run in this configuration under no load. No reason for all of this other than to solve my own curiosity.
Very informative! Can you possibly talk about how you could add a fan speed control knob on an oscillating fan? I don’t want to add the speed control without bypassing the oscillating motor, for fear of burning out the oscillating motor. This is for a 30” industrial fan. Thank you!
Ok so I learned it should only be one motor. So it seems the cork rage control switch should not hurt the oscillating function. So do I just wore it up?? Lol just thinking out loud but thought I’d check in.
Hi Jeremy, big fan. Making a lapidary machine with single phase brushed motors with start capacitor. Was hoping to run it right off the motor. What would be the best method of speed control? Or should I just maybe use pulleys? Thanks for all your great videos. I am very new to this so watch them multiple times. 👍
So can i use regular dimmer switch to control speed of small fan (bathroom type fan)
Yes
I'm not 100% on this but i think a shunt is an intentional short maybe the poles on the rotor are shunted? I learn a ton from your videos. great series.
+Daniel Milloy -the way I described was careful and precise. While It is generally accepted to say shorted, that is not technically correct regarding the rotor. It actually is confusing I think to call it a short. As far as shunt... a induction motor rotor is not "wound" or connected in any way. To say that a motor is shunt wound only means the rotor and stator are connected in parallel. In this case nothing is connected to the rotor. Thanks for the kind remarks!
I'm still a little confused then. Does the rotor of a an induction motor have any windings at all or is it just a series of lobes [of metal]? I understand that whatever the rotor is it is not electriaclly connected to any stationary part of the motor.
Just a suggestion, you've obviously done a lot of research and self-teaching on these motor and good on you for wanting t share your knowledge. It might be more information if you could put up a schematic when talking about the motor windings.
In any case, keep up the good work.
+Richard Marton. Think of it this way. The metal bars are the windings. Exactly the same as very thick wire.
Some are intimidated by drawings and schematics. I thought hands on would be more appealing based on feedback from others. You and only one other person has asked for schematics. They make sense to people who already understand what the symbols mean. I didn't want to do a whole video on that.
Great Explanation. How would one go about searching for just the speed coil? I have a vintage fan that I want to add a speed coil to make it 3 speed. I don't want to wind my own speed coil. I just want to perhaps find one already made or scavenge/salvage one from somewhere else.
Thank you Mr. Fielding. Good video. (Is it ok to to call you Jeremy? You can use my 1st name too.) We've never met but it seems like I know you from watching these. I subscribed a several videos ago. Glad I did. This medium is a far cry from watching NOVA or reading Popular Electronics from years ago. The idea of communication with a program producer is great but still kind of new. I imagine you get hundreds of messages daily, so no hurry on the reply. I understand. Thanks again.
I read every message. You can call me Jeremy. I love it!
Jeremy I have a very expensive $189 shaded pool motor and it is single speed and coil is shorted☹️. More windings is more torque.....what Would happen if I used a larger size wire or a smaller size wire does it simply mean that a smaller size wire will take more windings that’s more torque? And a larger wire would not support more turns but less turns meaning less torque? But with a bigger wire be any benefit? Thank you for all these educational videos you put out I’ve learned so much from you
that helped :)
vintage fans use a choke coil for the medium and low speeds to the motor when speeds are high current flows directly to the motor medium and low one end of the taps go through the choke coil then to one of the motor leads. which is used in both shaded pole and PSC motors. and there is triac speed controls. the ones specifically designed for PSC and Shaded pole motors and the max FLA or full load amps is labled on the switch but never use a lamp dimmer switch with a motor as those are for dimming incadecent bulbs. the speed taps in any motor with multiple wires coming out motor speeds are lowest when current flows through the entire coil. and are highest when it flows through the smallest segment. as that also applies to the taps on an AC-DC universal motor. as now the new ECM motors are fastly replacing these motors used in fans and HVAC. the speeds are regulated electronically via componets on a printed circuit board as well the electronic componets on the board that makes the motor run. as sometimes on the ECM motors the boards go bad meaning the motor has to be replaced. even though they are energy efficient than some PSC and low efficiency shaded pole motors. they run at a slightly higher RPM. but they cost more.
Thanks for the input... you might find the first part of the series interesting... #42 ua-cam.com/video/tXJOtWPPRwE/v-deo.html, I cover some of the things you mention here.
A lot of shaded pole fan motors put High first for the torque to get the fan spinning easier...
Thanks Jeremy. It's very helpful.i have a doubt though. In my table fan when I took it apart. There were 4 wires... 1)Common yellow 2) lowspeed red 3) medium speed white 4) high-speed blue. The white and blue wires are shorted ( shows 10 ohm resistance on my multimeter) . The others aren't shorted. Is this a problem?
Do you consider salvaged motors to be a good source of magnet wire, or is it too troublesome to collect to be worthwhile?
I've tried winding coils for crystal radios from salvaged motors with mixed results... (although my lack of knowledge about inductance probably foiled most of those projects) Thanks for the videos!
In German the squirrel-cage rotor is called "Kurzschlussläufer" ("short circuit runner"). I know what you mean though. I don't know why, but for me there is a slight difference in meaning between "a short circuit" and "to short circuit something". The former is something accidental, the latter something you do on purpose, even though the physical result is the same.
Thank you for the insight... For me I found it most confusing when I first became interested in this topic, but knew very little. It is reflecting on that feeling as a beginner that prompted the comment in the video. I have the same feeling, I understand "now" why they call it that, but I feel it delayed my understanding of what was actually happening. It seemed I didn't understand what a short circuit was or the presenter was mistaken which also didn't make sense.
I still say that you've got all the makings of a lifesize robotic test platform Lawrence Turner
Hi Mr Fielding, could you perform a hair dryer motor tear down? I was hoping to reuse my old hair dryer motor for another application but have no idea how to dismantle the heating coils and how to power it up without blowing myself or the motor up!
I wonder if when using the speed setting that uses the 1/3-way tap, if an autotransformer effect happens and induces a higher voltage in the remaining over-winding?
wondering how he would break a part of making a running string with metal blinking on to use to train shooting with little metal motion blinking as they come or they turn so you do not see how thick the flash is and then turn around automatically then you have to be ready to shoot those who turn first so you can shoot it before the next turn so you have the opportunity to hit it too
Exellent work my friend. I have one question. I have one AC motor from kichen aspirator. How can I change motor rotation clockwise and vice versa? The motor have two wires.
I have one of those big 24 inch shop fans. Are those also ajustable by lowering the voltage like you mentioned here?
Have you made anything using that fan you sacrificed? I hàve one just like it I hesitate to get rid of. Love your channel!
Can I use the old fan motor just like that for making drill press, attaching a chuck with a coupler
Great video and excellent explanations, much appreciated !!!
I have a 220V table fan who looks like the one you used at the beginning in your video, the problem is that it is very loud even on speed 1 which is the lowest. Can I reduce the voltage by plugging it into a 110V transformator ? To be honest, I tried it and it works like a charm, but so many people told me that this is dangereous because it will damage the motor which will overheat at low voltage, and the fan can even catch fire in the worst case. I can also mount it with a lamp dimmer which I own (the kind of wall mounted dimmers used in the seventies with normal lamps) ?What do you think ?
Hi Jeremy, just found your channel and I love your explanations for different motors. Greatly appreciated. Do you know if multi speed ceiling fans are PSC motors? There isn't a lot on youtube regarding them except for making wind turbine generators and the like. I'm not sure if they can really be used for garage diy applications. Electricity is still kind of magic to me at 44 so I'm still not too confident with experimenting with it.
Thanks again for your contributions. I subscribed and look forward to your future videos
First Welcome to my neighborhood! I have not opened a ceiling fan personally. But I would expect them to be PSC fans like the oscillating fan I show in this video.
Our nutone 765hfl-a exhaust ceiling fan quit; label says 1/100 HP ; 1000 rpm thermally protected. 3 wires in-black,white with green stripe, and white. The plug gave 80 vac b-w and 12 vac b-green stripe. Putting 120 vac on b and w does nothing; how to find the problem in the PSC circuit?
Great video and instruction; thanks
If you connect a switch to the capacitor connection into a single phase motor, are you able to control it using the change in frequency? And can you control single phase motors with capacitor start using voltage without risking overheat ? Of course lowering voltage from nominal
So being able to tap the coil at difference points and being able to change the supply voltage as well would create a huge variation of speeds and torque if combine?
Jeremy this is great, but I need some help figuring out a GE Vintage Vortalex fan. It has an induction motor and I didn't locate a capacitor. I wired one straight in without going through the 3 speed switch control, and got it to work on just the high speed, but I couldn't figure out how to run it through the switch, capacitor, and speed coil. All those items continuity check good, but I can't get it to run
i'v angle grinder from bosch with carbon brush without speed selector... is it ok if i use dimmer for it?
Great video very informative 🙋🏽♂️ just have one question..
Is there anyway i can change the speed of a PSC motor further than how it comes already by design as it's pre tapping into different sections of the winding.. can i get my fan motor to spin abit slower than the lowest set speed it comes with? 🤔 say adding a different capacitor or another cap to inpact the wave to change the speed??
Lower voltage for a fan