Tettles - "New raid is fine." Also Tettles - "I was 630 ilvl...." So you did a raid that felt fine and balanced, except you were in gear that was significantly better than what drops. I'm glad the bosses encounters are interesting, but it sounds like their numbers were off, again. Outside of race to world first, the numbers in this expansion have felt bad. M+ feels bad, the farm required for the anniversary event feels bad, the anniversary raid feels bad, class tuning feels bad. So why play a game that feels bad?
It didn't sound like that to me. Find some friends and join a guild, socialize in the game to organize some M+. It definetly takes more time than hitting LFG, but if you can get past that initial hurdle, it improves the M+ experience overall. Cheers and good luck out there.
@@Zonalar Maybe some people have a hard time socializing that's why they play a GAME and not an outside group activity... just a possibility among others.
@@whereisthesurvivalhunter9525fine. you have your solo content then. Lots of games out there. WoW have delves now, you can use the followers-function to play the dungeons (i actually did that to learn the mechanics of Dawnbringer), you get to see the story. But in its core, it's still a multiplayer game. So if thats you're problem and you still chose to play an MMO, don't blame me for suggesting to interact with players and try to make friends.
@@whereisthesurvivalhunter9525funny How most outside activities that people use to socialize are… games :O Like soccer, volleyball etc in sports are literally games. Most things people do together as activities are games
Then those people should play a single player game if they are that upset about communication and socializing in a massively multiplayer game trying to do the hardest GROUP COOPPERETIVE content.🤷♂
Wait, they believe you shouldn't time a key after a full wipe? Jesus, these guys are a completely different species from me.. I find that opinion to be ridiculous
It's kinda arbitrary right, like if you can time a key with a wipe, you probably can't time the key the next step up. Conversely, why not 2 wipes? If you go down a level or 2 you can probably wipe 3 times and still time it. IMO it's more fun to lose a key because you missed timer rather than the timer being a complete joke and it's just surviving pulls/bosses that are doing 90% of your hp every ability
@@doubleshine But now you have both you have to survive bolts that do 60-70%+- of your hp even in 10s and can't ever wipe pretty much unless you have a lot of dps to afford it. One bad tank or healer gcd can be like rip whole key, there should be room be some room for failure in that environment.
In theory, yes, you probably shouldn't time a key after a full wipe - after all, you're not beating raid bosses by wiping to them, are you? But that's really only the theoretical argument because, in reality, that argument becomes pretty fucking stupid if you actually think that having a single wipe over a like 30 minute period should just brick your key. Like, imagine fucking Broodtwister progress but every time you wipe the entire raid resets and you have to clear all the previous bosses again. And the argument is especially stupid in a gearing / character progression environment. But I'm glad they at least acknowledged that someone who's pretty much exclusively pugging doesn't really progress these dungeons because they're not playing with a consistent group and the next fucking group is just gonna wipe to the same shit again. All of these are prime reasons as to why a single wipe should probably not ruin your key. And absolutely get lost with that silly "mastery of a key" take - as if your first 2-3 kills of a mythic raid boss would imply you've mastered that boss when what's way more likely is that it'll take you like another 4 IDs before you truly get to the point of mastering the boss (which isn't even a guarantee). So absolutely fucking no, you shouldn't have to "master" a +10 Mists to get your random ass heroic track items that no one really cares about anymore after like 1 week of playing the season. Absolutely lost take from someone lost inside his own bubble. And while it's not bad to be inside your own bubble, it gets pretty fucking bad when you try to be a public figure and speaking on behalf of "the community", advocating for changes to the game when you have seemingly no idea whasoever, or even just a willingness to imagine, what the game looks like for anyone else but the 100 people like you. And get absolutely fucking lost with that constant "just find friends" take that they all keep bringing up over and over - maybe after repeating that take for another 5 years we'll start realizing how worthless it actually is.
@@t.g7545 There is room for failure in this environment though. Of course a bad tank/healer will hold a group back more than dps. Almost every class can kick, even healers. So many classes have aoe stops. Every class has defensives, and cooldowns to increase dps. Brez's exist. A full wipe means something big happened, multiple people failed to do something. Depending on what kind of wipe it was (10% of a boss, vs a pack right next to graveyard), it'll be more punishing. All wipes aren't equal, as well as all dungeons are not equal so honestly messups don't brick a key. You can also still complete a depleted key and you still get the gear in the end and in the vault. But 10s give the highest possible gear in repeatable content. Why shouldn't it be difficult? Shouldn't it be something people actually feel challenged to do? You don't have to be flawless to time a 10.
It's like people before the crest changes in m+ saying "it's not that bad to do 10s at 625 IL". Brother, before 9s you were literally hardstuck 619 all slots and even then had to time 8 keys to get a single upgrade anyway (why did they make crafted 90 crests I have no idea).
This exactly, they are definitely a little out of touch on who this raid is meant for. Take a group in there at 600-606 item level and then let's talk about tuning.
Yeh thats biggest non-sense i have heard in a while like having the incentive to do the raid with full 625 group to get 1 mythic pieces what about all that useless heroic gear that was supposed to be a cool way to have fun and catch up mid of the patch. That podcast is starting to get filled with way too out of touch elitist's takes.
As soon as he said they were 630 ilvl I was like... oh so the thing you overgrared for wasn't hard? No shit Sherlock. You couldn't get the rewards if you didn't overgear it. If you were at the same ilvl as the gear that drops then it was as hard or harder tuned than mythic is for most progging guilds. Tettles was incredibly out of touch in a bubble on this take LOL
As someone who does only 10s, mostly pugs, for my vault, this timer change means nothing. Every run is either super clean and we clear with minutes left, or we have 2 wipes by the first boss and everyone leaves. The timer doesn't exist for my keys, it's just can we stop/defensive 100 web bolt casts or can we not?
I second this as someone who pugs 11s. The timer changes nothing, neither does challenger's peril. whether a group will make it or not becomes apparent pretty early on.
The timer exists for my keys. Arakara and COT are the bane of timing my 10s. For some reason even before I start the last boss I tell the group (pop defensive if you aren't topped during umbral weave, and tremor slam. Or be very careful dispelling yourself to not kill your teammates). So many times, someone does something crazy.
True, interrupt requirements are insane this season and somehow are in their weakest form ever. Some interrupts only have a 2second silence, where aoe stuns become more valuable again
@@Zarod89 while interrupts are insane this season. I have noticed that there is a good amount of must interrupt spells that are cast into channel, so if you hold of on your stop until the channeling starts they still won't recast it and you get to save your kick to stop some of the bolt spam. - ara kara, web mages with the volley thing - mists, harvest essence - GB, the searing mind channel - NW, drain fluids, repair flesh
"You shouldnt time a key where you have a full wipe" - thank you, Tettles, for validating those pug players that instantly leave a key after wiping once. Great take.
I think the take is fine. Tettles is using the argument that timing a key is "mastery" of a key. If you want to go with that logic it checks out. I even think that works if that's going to be intended, with a change. If you make it so your key doesn't degrade down a level, these problems are gone. You can actually play your key to master it. Do the big pull, figure out the coordination and cohesion, it doesn't work you walk out, reset and walk back in. All the toxicity stems from bricking a key and it degrading down a level.
@@Sacdaddicus problem is any tank death is basically always a full wipe. So this means tanks can’t make any mistakes or a key is just dead. Further removing the incentive to tank
@@ZKrinny Oh I know about that. Maining tank right now. I do feel like tanking is heavily disincentivized. It was kind of a trade off before when tanks were a lot stronger relative to DPS. You have a lot more responsibility than DPS players, but realistically didn't have to be as "good" as your DPS as long as you were knowledgeable. After tank/healer changes it's been more stressful and a lot easier to cause one of those full wipes. Also I'm not an amazing player, ~2400io so take my opinion with a grain of salt.
they act like they are journalists giving unbiased commentary and that htey speak for everyone. In reality, they are speaking for their fellow elitist pieces of shit speaking for the 1%
Issue is the average player feels entitled to timing keys they don't deserve to time. In a 10 challenger's peril doesn't matter and if it does maybe your group shouldn't be in a 10 to begin with.
@@caroqt tettles, is that you? Not even close to what the average player wants imo but I won't speak for the populace like you apparently have. Please show us your survey data that you did to compile this shit opinion. People want challenging content with adequate rewards. They don't want to fuck around with rng and systems that reduce their already scarce playing time. THEY DO NOT WANT, bullshit catered to the top 1%. This isn't about 10's. This is about the idea that things are gated due to elitism.
I've watched some title players pug and they'd often rip easy keys, sometimes even vault filler 10s/20s. Tettles needs to do some of those keys with randos to understand what is really going on.
I think Squishei even suggested something very similar in saying "the first death shouldn't count" or something to that effect. This is that so I think its a solid change.
@@poorchris Idk how your experience is so different, I exclusively PuG too and the vast majority of my 10s are pretty chill throughout, low deaths, just handle pull for pull. You make it sound like you're dropping into Vietnam and tank is dropping every other pull lmao
it even adds to tank anxiety, one mistake and the whole key is bricker. I think adding a buffer of 5 deaths to the affix alleviates to anxiety around making mistakes. I ran a Siege the other night where the healer died and ankhed and died and released and died again in the first minute of the dungeon... like thats griefing at that point.
@@poorchrisI am 2.6k+ io. Its 90% the dps throwing the key in pugs. However I have multiple +10's times with 10 deaths, the main difference is our wipes are usually our only mistakes. When I pug lower keys on my alts those key fail because wipes are in addition to all the other mistakes players are making. Challengers Peril isn't the reason keys are failing, people are just legitimately bad at M+
@@johnd2946They are all clueless. They are at the center of the WOW-donut, which is TINY compared to the vast amount of players that play this game. Honestly, with attitudes likte this, they are bad for the game and the community.
If we count actually COMPLETED keys, yeah, I'm sure the statistics are probably in that range. The issue is A LOT of "depletes" never finish. If you wipe before Amarth in NW you are probably better off just zoning out since you are failing before the hard part of the dungeon and the writing is already on the wall.
I am a 629/2651 Bdk who only pugs. While I don’t deal with queue times due to tank privilege, i do generally have success in keys. Last week, only 2 10+ keys were bricked out of about 20. Obviously perspectives differ based off of role, but I don’t think the percentage is that ludicrous.
Average player waits while getting declined for a long ass time in lfg and then wipes on first pull when they get into one key Out of touch as usual lol This sounds like the "I pug keys all the time" take while having a network of friends and/or an m+ team lmao
Get some friends, quit your job, if you have kids sell them, if you have hobbys not wow stop them, if you have a gf dump her. Then you cant start playing half the hours of these guys
I mean... even if you have time for 1 or 2 keys a week, you can talk to the people in those keys and add them if they're good. Eventually you'll have enough people in your friends list where someone will be on at the same time as you.
@@caroqt I mythic raid 4 hours 3 days between that and studying I just queue with randoms depending on the week, If my schedule was based on work and raiding I agree with you. Not to mention with the anniversary time is very limited.
He meant more as “group progress” I think. Obviously you can make progress pugging, but it turns into a slot machine of hoping you get people who have also progged like you.
same for tanks, im sitting on 2750 io , timed all 11s and a 12, im sitting in q over 30+ minutes, only for a dps to die to an avoidable frontal and blaming the heal/tank.
tettles and growl having major issues with m+ getting harder due to scaling issues is hilarious to listen to when it comes right before they both spend 15 minutes wanting m+ to be harder for everyone else.
Yeah, this season sucks. It's sweatlord central. The average player who does M+ casually is really not enjoying this season with the slew of changes that impact player agency (tank nerfs to self-survivability), reduced stops (stuns don't interrupt), insane difficult swings between keys of similar level (Mists vs. Stonevault for example), and challengers peril (which is simply a failed concept). They added high end keys but completely destroyed the casual experience in the process - why? Let 1-10 be attainable by the average player without it being overly painful and let 11+ scale up with no affixes. People like to play alts and run weekly keys for fun - not anymore. Its week 6 and people are over it. These podcasts with players who play this game for a living is a completely different perspective than a normal player who gets an hour or two a few nights a week. The barrier to entry shouldn't be that high, it's destroying the playerbase
@@IIIEPINEPHRINE Completely agree, I usually have a few alts I work on once I do my 3 m+ vault slots, now, i think about trying to do alt keys and know how bad the experience is and just dont bother. I main a tank too and am a high commodity, but I just don't want to. The changes suuuck
@IIIEPINEPHRINE the average player who does m+ casually is fine dude... go enjoy your casual 5s... why are you worrying about high keys. If you're a casual, then you shouldn't be doing high keys as per your definition of that player base.
@IIIEPINEPHRINE people aren't over it, and a lot of players are actually working on their third or fourth character. If you try to give me some shit numbers, you gotta consider the Diablo expansion and other events around the game.
The bench is normally good at not making these out of touch takes, but I think they just heard the changes right as the podcast started and they shared their raw emotions and takes without the time to sit on it. I'll give them a pass for this one.
When I hear these takes I just realize how much wow is not made for me. I just don’t want to invest so much in one videogame. Guess I let my sub run out..
@@kozstreamstv The only problem is that they play wow like a job so they can put in more time in one week than most players play in a month. I think it would give them an interesting perspective change though.
The opinion about the BRD raid is incredibly ignorant. Complaining about it's difficulty is not asking for free loot. The fact of the matter is, that it's numerically overtuned for the gear it expects and the gear it gives out. It's much harder than Nerub'ar Heroic, but rewards early Heroic track gear, despite needing much more. The biggest issue here really, is that the mechanics of each boss are unbelievable easy and mundane, but the numbers tuning around them is incredibly overtuned. Has nothing to do with Freeloot.
100%, in this video Tettles says that if you get a 625 grp it's not that hard like HUH?! dude you know that max heroic track is 626 right? LOL so you need to be full heroic gear to do a heroic raid? bruh moment
"You can get full hero track reasonably from Delves." -- So reasonable loot is 1-2 pieces PER week? completely RNG? For hero track? Tettles has to start an alt and ONLY do Delves on it, and come back and repeat those words with a straight face.
oh yea didnt you hear you can EASILY be at 619ilvl JUST from delves when they reward 608ilvl champion track gear and rarely a 613ilvl hero track item and 8 delves give you enough crests to maybe upgrade one level of an item. (this community is so braindead)
@@azkendarken4403 and the level of progression is just fine if all you are doing is delves. If you are planning on doing harder content then the whole argument is void because you will then progress in that content with its rewards. The brain dead syndrome seems to be there lol
i have come to the podcast these days only to see how out of touch you guys are from week to week, its incredible how skewed you guys are on the real version of the game for most people lol gives me a good laugh each week
Everything these guys talk about is self serving and completely out of touch with the player base. Everything for them is about protecting their online revenue stream. They are pieces of shit.
I don't understand the COMPLETE 180 regarding this group the past 2-3 weeks. Ever since the expansion dropped every week you all have been complaining about Peril and Guile. Now they nerf Peril you say skill issue and it wasn't the problem? Where was this mentality 3 weeks ago where you spent half the episode talking about solutions if not outright removing of Peril??
the gear goggles is kinda wild. The mechanics arent hard when everyone in raid is 620-630. thats just not where most people with lives outside of wow are at.
Also they should ABSOLUTELY balance every single fucking week. You know how bad it sucks to have your class at the bottom and know it will stay there for the entire patch?
lol tettles take on peril is the take of the top 0.1% “wahhhhh my push keys” cool story bro, glad to know you’re so out of touch that your opinion can be safely ignored by the bottom 99.9%. Actual F tier take lol
Adding 90 seconds to the timer tells me that Blizzard is afraid to admit that they made a mistake with the death affix. Holding back from fixing bad designs or tuning because you think it invalidates your progress is just backwards. Blizzard already retroactively applied time to your previous keys as they always have.
It is an extremely ugly and uninspired band aid on an already ugly affix. If they are stubborn and going to keep the death affix they should have made it something like +1s per death with a grace period if deaths occur within same amount of seconds as the penalty. Example: 1st death is 5s penalty, 2nd 6s penalty, 3rd 7s penalty, 4th 8 seconds penalty etc. If entire group have 3 deaths already. And you wipe within 8s you only gets penalized 8s per death (40s total). Instead of 8+9+10+11+12 (50s total) Next time someone dies after this wipe you get penalized 9s with a grace period of 9s.
@@Mangeol I personally think any convoluted solution we can come up is a waste of time when you can just outright remove the affix. Who’s going to complain? Less than 5% of the community? They live in their own bubble and shouldn’t be catered to. If you must keep the affix, why not just add a time bonus after each boss for every player alive by the end of the fight? It rewards doing the mechanics. This argument that I hear from top key pushers, “you shouldn’t be allowed to wipe a dozen times and time the key” doesn’t make sense either. You already lose a significant amount of time on a full wipe with running back and losing your trinket buffs. Every death naturally slows down your time because it’s less damage going out on a boss. Removing the affix doesn’t allow groups with excessive wipes to magically time keys. What it will do is stop this trend of players disbanding keys after one or two wipes.
@MikeyJ232 also, death affix wouldn't be so bad if they actually give us proper checkpoints. People don't realize how long it takes to walk back and there is no reason or rhyme to why some bosses have checkpoints and some doesn't. Giving us a stupid bay to fly is not a checkpoint. This is more infuriating than the death timer affix. The solution should be simple. You kill a boss, you get a checkpoint and after that even if they keep the death timer at 15s, it wouldn't be as punishing.
Honestly both Growl and Tettles have some completely out of touch takes in this episode, it's probably the worst episode of this podcast so far. Imagine unironically saying that BRD is not overtuned because you and your friends with 625-630 ilvl gear were able to do it just fine. Hey idiots, how about you go on an alt with 615 ilvl without it being linked to your main account and see what kind of pug you get accepted by and let us know if you manage to kill the 3rd boss. Also Growl's take that gearing is the best its ever been is so outside the realm of reality that I have to wonder if he's just outright trolling at this point, most people playing in the game are hard stuck at 622 ilvl, but I'm sure they will be filled with joy to hear that he's so happy to still get upgrades so long into the tier on his 635 ilvl characters.
I don't get why they decided to become so precious with Myth-track loot. Putting the myth-track vault 3 shelves higher than in DF without any notice or rationale just doesn't make sense. A large part of the player-base has been able to get myth-track vault spots relatively easily in previous seasons. Making myth-track gear come from 10s which are: Tyrannical AND Fortified AND a -15 sec death affix AND the change to stops/ccs AND the current dungeon difficulty AND then the resulting pugging exclusivity and toxicity, is insane. You don't need to be a little better than before or have a little bit more time. You need to be 5x better and have 5x more time for a LESSER reward: myth-track drops at a lower upgrade level and takes longer to upgrade. The very best players with pre-made groups will always be able to get the best rewards faster than anyone else. Who cares if "worse" players (people who can't game for days at a time) take longer to get the same rewards. The more advanced gamers will always perform better and get higher scores and do their sweaty thing. The divide is firmly in place and the peasant masses just trying to max their vault like they always have been able to are being pushed down and punished more than ever.
@@caroqt Gatekeeping at its finest. Let's talk about the reward structure. I am a player that can and does do 10s. And consistently get CE. The changes from the past expansion to this are much too harsh for a specific set of players. Not in difficulty only but in valuing someone's time. So I can do 10s fine with a group of friends. What is much less consistent is pugging. My question is why continue to gate keep an already time gated source of once a week chance at loot? To me it's not the less skilled players that are hurt by the system. It's the players that don't have as much free time.
As someone who fills my vault with 10s since week 2. I still don’t understand why they put myth gear at 10s. If they want that to be the stretch goal for most players then myth gear at 9 as a way for them to slowly progress and make the goal more attainable makes sense. Also as to your conversation last week. I think a mount recolor of the mythic mount would be a good reward for all 12s and change the token helm and shoulder thing for 2500 to a full class set recolor. That would be like 100x better than the current system.
Disagree on the utility point by growl around 42:45, as a warrior i would kill a dev for more utility; i've even swapped to dracthyr just to have a somewhat useful button!
I think blizzard needs to do a better job making utility more universal. Take utility and defensives off the GCD to remove the "feels bad, lost a GCD", messed up rotation, interrupted ramp issue. Guardian Druid felt best when incapRoar, SI, And Frenzy Regen we're off GCD. The same would go for pretty much any spec. Enhancement kick/dispell/totems would all feel great if they didn't mess with rotation or GCD. Another change I'd make is remove kick overlap eating the CD to be more pug friendly. Yes people will macro it onto shit but if they wanna waste their kick on low priority kicks that's on them. Tune accordingly.
My biggest issue with peril was always that it makes pugging so much harder. Because one guy will stand in swirlies or not defensive and then you lose like 10 deaths just to that one player. As a result pugs are now dramatically more selective about who they bring. This doesn't address that issue at all.
Sure, on a conceptual level that person doesn't deserve to time that key. Depleting the key doesn't make any sense conceptually, unless it was his key, but not timing it is fine. But the second order effects of it taking 3x longer to get into a group aren't worth it. I don't pay a sub just to sit in Dornogol.
Tettles-we are 625 and it's fine. This statement makes sense but there is still a gap in gear progression for gilded crests. If you don't mythic raid or do 8+s you can't get gilded. Let's say it's a group of 10-15 people who are solid players who hop in for raid. The best they can really get is 620 ish unless they start farming out m+ or hugging mythic. I like the idea of 1 myth track per week. Pretending like there is only 1 raid for a second you get 30 gilded if you kill queen and queen is pretty tough so I'm sure many who heroic are still progressing her. But your hero track stuff is still capped. And I think this issue Is more prominent because it's so easy to get Hero track gear. so you go from explosive growth on ilv to stagnation. Smoother curve all around wouls be nice. TLDR: there needs to be a better bridge to myth track. maybe vault is the answer or a weekly?
The issue with BRD is mostly like who is it for? The gear it drops is mostly worse than the gear in nerubar, and save for queen I would argue the difficulty is on par or a little harder in BRD on average. So like it's not good for gearing alts, our mains don't want it, so after you clear it once for fun why ever do it again? It doesn't have to be a loot pinata, but it's much easier to pug the first few bosses on heroic for gear than try to do heroic BRD. Edit: also tettles take of "I don't want it to be nerfed because if you over gear the content by 6 entire item levels, half a tier of gear, it's not bad" is not great.
The problem with Chalenger's Peril isn't that blizz is failing to achieve what the want, the problem is that what they want is fundamentally less fun then how m+ used to be. It is FUN to try to double and triple pull packs and they are doing everything they can to make that not happen. Dratnos had a spot on take about this. The game in legion had an issue with people being able to pull wayyy too much and just wipe kill trash too easily. That has not been the case in a long time though, yet, blizzard keeps trying to push people towards never doing anything interesting and just playing safe in their keys.
I agree, I feel they shifted the threshold where missed globals leads to deaths all the way down to weekly vault key levels. In shadowlands, you didn’t wipe for missing a kick til 5 keys over the max vault reward.
As someone with no friends who is shit at this game, the change didn't effect me much. I am one Heroic Queen kill away from being done with the season after getting KSM.
I think the change to challengers peril is a good change for community perception. The amount of leavers after one wipe or death in 5-8 keys is insanely high. They truely believe they wont time the key, and its very untrue at those key levels.
4:04 great change. No point in crying over "what might have been" if this change existed earlier. We are where we are now, and I'm glad to have the extra time. Would I rather the entire affix not exist? Yes, but this is better than just having the 15s penalty without added time.
The OL rogue exploit talk, especially from Growl, is psychotic. If the bank accidentally leaves the vault open, that doesn't mean it's totally legal to go in and take as much cash as you can stuff into your pockets. That's still stealing and you should still be punished.
yeah i thought that was maybe the most egregious take of this entire podcast, and there were bad takes all around. Like bruh, if you have to do a 10 step sequence to break your rotation and double your dam, that is obviously an intentional exploit. it's no different from smoke bombing on lich king.
my problem with peril is it doesn't really doooo anything other than lower the natural failure threshold. Like they're talking about how you shouldn't be able to time a key if you wipe, which first of all lol, but also that was already the case once you got high enough. The deaths were already punishing with the 5 seconds, the loss of dps and the runback, if you were doing like, an 18 ulda last season, it was pretty common that if you DID wipe one time, that key is basically bricked. All this affix did was lower that failure point x amount of key levels, x being different based on whatever group your in skill level/dps to make up for it. It seems entirely unnecessary and all it did was create an enviornment that makes people disband more often even if they can still time the key, it just shifted the mentality in a negative way.
M+ player.....2 weeks in a row now all my mythic track pieces i either already have or are downgrades.....only wearing 2 crafted myth and 1 myth track from vault. Huge let down on reset when there are so many upgrades I need but have only got the same slots every week. That kind of terrible luck makes ppl very frustrated.
I agree on coordinated in com groups with what you all say. However most of the player base is pugging and much less talented. I consider myself a good tank but not great. I study videos, routes and spend a good amount of time learning what is best. And it’s not the peril by itself. It’s that mixed with stuns not stopping the ICD of the 55 gazillion rapid fire casters. They set up the dungeons to pull less even in great teams. The peril is just more punishing on top. Move it to 12’s and take away guile and that fixes it all.
Yeah, the take that BRD isn't that bad. It feels like a "heroic raid" take from people that are 630 ilvl and over half way fully mythic geared. That means the raid is overtuned for the loot it drops, because you're characters should make it feel like a normal raid at that Ilvl. If the loot were better it might feel more worthwhile, but I went into it expected it to be a relatively easy time for my guild that is progressing early mythic bosses. We were clearing bosses, but I was having a miserable time. The expectation was not set for this raid to feel as highly tuned as it was. That's what bothers me the most, I am fine to progress difficult content. But a anniversary timewalking event raid would normally be more for novelty then difficulty.
I think we have seen a massive ramp in M+ and a massive decrease in the rewards you can get. Mythic track gear used to be much easier to obtain in M+ in DF compared to now and that accompanied with a ramp in M+ difficulty has gotten a negative outlook from the community. I understand it because people in WoW complain about everything but the difficulty vs reward curve just feels bad even as a midcore player. I think the top end community of M+ might be happy but everyone else doesn't really want to participate and I have seen plenty of people avoid it all together or just do one key for vault all week.
Its def a feel bad moment since they squished the reward curve in a bad way. I used to work to getting myth track vaults then after getting a few of those then work to portals. Now all the rewards are tied to 10s. That combined with delves being so brain dead easy makes that gap between t8 delves and even +8 keys feel like an absolutely insurmountable chasm of dificulty.
1: I think they did revert all the top Outlaw keys @tettles 2: THey should have made a mythic difficulty of BRD, tuned down heroic a bit and actually made it a fully progable raid tier with appropriate rewards. It's too difficult for people in 619 gear, no incentive to do it in higher gear.
For the last 3 expansions, the entire aim of the dev team is to reduce big pulls. Big pulls throws off the game engine, class balance and many more. This is how we got capped aoe, the inspired affix and many more game features such as the current ara kara damage reduction of big mobs etc. They went with death timer and static linear dungeon pulls just to force this. Also, the stops not acting like an interrupt is another feature in this regard. They will do anything to stop people from pulling big, and pulling big is fun.
They had the curve perfect in s4 of dragonflight and I hoped the changes would be more fun but they aren't. There are no push goals in M+ anymore. All the rewards are from 10s now. I used to casually farm myth tracks then work on portals. Now its one and the same so its just 10s for all the stuff and its just a question is it worth the effort to go from t8 delves hero gear to farming 10s for the next tier of gear and portals.
I’m 45 min in and this is just full of bad takes. I’m an Ele player and have been for way too long. Got no sympathy for ele they are eating pretty good. But just managing to be in the top quarter of classes we are eating good this expac? If it is what you’ve accepted that it’s meta driven and different classes are strong at different times. Ok fine. As someone who prefers to play one or two specs that’s ok sometimes I will be strong sometimes I will be weaker. So where’s the sympathy for ele? We have been strong for two days since mythic plus was released in legion. One raid tier where we were good and that was a three boss tier. We are back to bottom tier in single target and middle of the pack aoe in general play. The class was ok in 11.0 and didn’t need to be touched. Dude the class hasn’t seen a rework since legion. It’s been neglected and brushed off to the side repeatedly while the classes that are always strong get tons of attention. We finally get n attempt at a rework and it’s broken in half because we are an afterthought. Do you have any idea of the degenerative game play we had in 11.0 hoping the rest of the rework would make sense? It does the class is much more fun to play and more dynamic. But now we back to the gutter. Not even elitest takes which are fine for your audience but just ignorant unaware commentary.
1:19:24 "I didn't think it was too hard just bring a group full of 625 people" Brother, the raid drops 613 gear. No one 625 has any reason to go in. You are TWENTY IL over the people this difficulty is designed for. No shit it isn't hard.
Couple of things here, 1st does it matter if your runs previous to changes feel invalidated when you all are just going to push the highest keys possible anyways? Like the high end key pushers make the game more difficult than the average player can do anyways so why does it matter? 2. This change only affects 11s below, the timers aren’t longer for the dungeon, you only get the additional 90 seconds if the affix is active on the key so it doesn’t matter once you get into 12s and up
This affix 100% kills pugs. The issue is that coordinated groups can deal with it. But when 1 wipe makes pugs FEEL the key is bricked and they just leave. The key adds to the kind of performance pressure that over arches the toxicity in pug m+. Edit: the graveyard problem is 100000000% overlooked. Amazing point.
How? I pugged to 3k as a healer. It doesn't kill pugs, it just makes bad players (there's a lot of them in lfg, I get it) struggle to climb which is very different from the free 23-27 keys we had in s3 DF. The truth is the bad players should not make it to 12s or higher until they deserve to.time those keys instead of dying 10 times and getting carried.
I have pugged 2 toons to 2.6k io, all 10s, that challengers peril discussion is the most out of touch thing ive ever heard. So many times in a pug you have one person do a mechanic wrong and wipe a group or one dps dying over and over or a healer that doesnt hit his cds fast enough. Its already punishing losing the time of the deaths and runbacks themselves, the extra 15s is very unnecessary
Even before the change you could have deaths in +10s and still time. Hell in several of my timed 10's we've had a full wipe and added a few stray deaths as well. Does rolling the dice on if your group will make enough mistakes to deplete suck? Yeah it does, but that is literally part of the game. Adapt or find a level of playing the game that is more appropriate to your skill level.
They do need to be careful tuning Enh Shaman, because there’s a HUGE disparity between an average vs good player in dps. Enhance only shines in the right hands. Just look at all the geared horrible Enh Shammy in LFG
Time and challengers peril is not what is making people quit. The tuning and sheer amount of mechanics compared to DF on top of the gear progression changes has killed the want to play for so many people. Also it is ridiculous that people think that 1 full wipe should end up in not timing a key. Wherever that "deaths vs timing" line lies, 1 full wipe is ridiculous to have that line at... IMO that line should be 3 full wipes worth of deaths with above average dps. This elitism needs to stop, it is really killing the playerbase.
Growls how bumed out we feel is related to how fun we are having hit me hard. I was having so much fun in dragonflight and I have not been having fun in TWW. So I'm not that bumed out from the patch but the expansion as a whole have been buming me out.
I dont remember if it was just the community or blizzard but I thought blizzard wanted to avoid the shadowlands balancing issues. Adding the new talent trees then putting hero talents on top of them seems similar to shadowlands where there are so many variables they have to deal with. They are making more work for themselves that they dont need to be doing. How many class and talent reworks are there constantly? Its just bad management that they are making problems for themselves.
The bench podcast is in shambles with all these comments. I want to see them reply to these comments saying theyre out of touch and elitist. I love it.
Its just a bad affix all together and it breeds toxicity. The group already loses so much time when people die purely on dps loss. We have all been in that pug where a VDH double jumps the entire stone vault hallway dies and then says keys already over.
@@Ratatoeskrrr I assume your calling me toxic, but either way I just want my keys to not be bricked and uncompleted because of one mistake. I don't care if someone makes mistake I just hate that the mistake leads to people leaving because they can no longer time it after one wipe. Once again, there's enough time loss from simply one dps dying why double down on that.
@@Ratatoeskrrr your missing the point though, why is blizzard doubling down on punishment. It is a lazy addition to m+ because they couldn't come up with better ideas.
At around 15:50 they briefly show a CD spreadsheet for the last boss of CoT is there an already made one like this for every dungeon that someone can share??
Ele Shaman here. (not Resto or Enhance) we have not been eating well this expansion. This last week has been whiplash (recraft gear, be OP, be forecasted to be bottom of the charts)
There's one massive thing that everyone's overlooking with the rework as well. We took a massive nerf to defensives with the removal of Flash of Lightning's cooldown reduction. Basically doubled defensive cds. Ele is fine in lower keys but everything except Astral Shift is almost useless in like 13+s. You're forced to get covered by rescues, sacs, or other externals. Doesn't matter for vast majority of people but sucks for such a big change in the middle of the season.
"The concept of ‘Blizzard polish’-the extreme care and loving detail put into every aspect of the games we make-is something we take seriously and pride ourselves on delivering to our players."
Peril spreads the impact off just tanks and healers??? I bricked a key because a tank died instantly on a pack, wiping the whole group. Who cares if we’re back at the pack in no time when we’ve lost a minute and a half off the timer in just 15seconds. It just feels bad when there is literally no recovering from that. You can’t just squeeze a little more dps in the last few packs to make it up.
I’m currently doing 8/9s in PUGs and I don’t see this making a huge difference honestly. Most of my issues are still with specific bosses not dying to trash. I got to the last boss in Ara Kara with 10 mins to go last week in a PUG +9 and we finished it 30 mins later…
The thing it feels like they aren't getting about Challenger's Peril is that for PUGs, you're just WAY more likely to have a "stinker" in your group, so it feels like a real crapshoot if you can time the key. And there isn't really a great mechanism to tell because even with IO, people can underperform, tanks and healers might not gel, etc so there's just way more variation that the Challenger's Peril exacerbates, even without full wipes.
Yeah I'm done listening to a 45 minute circlejerk every single week over how PUGs handle M+ when none of these guys do PUGs as their main method of running it. Completely out of touch.
The problem was never timer. It's that to get beyond heroic level gear you are required to do content that is simply harder than it ever has been for that level of reward. We're not even talking about doing more damage here, it's surviving. Previously you roll your face along the keyboard and do keys that gave you myth 1 gear. I'm guessing blizzard is seeing key failure stats and thinking timing will be an easy fix, they fail to realize the group will just disband on the 2nd wipe now. I'd suggest if you'd like to see the pub situation right now, throw on some heroic (4/6) delve gear and try to time some 10s in a pub.
This is the only person in the comments that gets it. The gap between T8 delves and M+ 10's is ridiculous - and Challengers peril just magnifies this 1000%. If the Myth track rewards were at a 9 then you would only get one of either Tyran or Fort and way more keys would be timed (regardless of Challengers Peril) - which in time would lead to 10's being timed as the gear would allow people to catch up.
@barreh69 most of the time gear is not the issue though. That's a misconception. People giving up after first wipe is a problem even after they wait in queue to invite over geared people. People dying to swirlies, and frontals is an issue not the gear... so yeah what's the point of having gear if people can't even time their dps cds correctly. That's a clear excuse and has nothing to do with why pugs fail a lot of the keys. Pugs don't show the effort required to time a key and they are not willing to learn from their mistakes. They want to be carried and give up when the carry doesn't happen, it's simple as that.
@@artug92 I agree with everything you said. I didn’t say gear was the issue. I said the gap between a T8 delve and a M+ 10 is huge, which is natural gearing progression. Maybe nerfing delve rewards and forcing people into M+ sooner to actually learn the content would be the best fix. I also said in time gear would help, which it would… no it doesn’t fix stupidity but it does mean less damage taken, higher healing, more health, more damage done etc
Yeah try doing 10s week 1-4 where you don't have gear or io so it's a struggle to get a half decent group together and watch the veng dh tank die on the first pull and leave, now you gotta do a 9 nice try, repeat until you get a couple 10s timed, and then you can finally actually do keys without it being a coin flip if you can complete it or not.
Totally agree with having another intermediate step up from AotC but can't do Mythic Raid because of forced group size. My guild was planning on basically quitting after AotC but now we have something to keep doing. I think we may be unique though that we just enjoy doing the content for content as a group of friends, not because BiS Gear is the goal.
Every single take is wrong here, what just happened ? Exploiters shouldnt get banned from Growl. Heroic BRD is fine, just get your 630 ilvl MDI mythic pushers friends and its easy from Tettles. Dripfed timegated gacha gearing is fine from Growl. I like the podcast but that must have been the most out of touch 0.01% top players takes I have ever seen. I've never given credit to the idea that Blizzard designs for the top and bottom 1% but this podcast was horrible in that regard.
Growl been on the cheaters' side this whole expac so far its kind of funny. Ridiculous these guys think they can speak for the community. Personally I think perma-bans would do nicely.
Agree with most of the comments down below that this feels like the most out of touch The Bench has been since the start of the podcast. BRD is harder than Nerub-ar on Heroic and the difficulty in itself isnt bad if you put difficulty in a Vacuum, but the difficulty is way to high for the rewards you get. The Bench should go in with a group that is 610 to 615 and then go through it. If you run in there with 625-630 it obviously will feel ok. Won't harp on the 75-80% successful pug runs. Overall from 2-9, maybe, but I think the 7-9 pug runs are dragging it down the most. THis is due to the easy gear track from delves which has been beaten to death. For the challengers peril add 90 seconds. Just make Xala'taths Guilde subtract 90 seconds and you fix the 12+ problem that Growl pointed out.
Guys, you're not gear driven because you no life the game and already have the gear. People sitting around 605-610 who want to progress but can only play for an hour or two a day absolutely need the difficulty of content to correlate with the gear dropped. If you're still badly needing gear and they drop another raid to prog that doesn't drop the gear you need to prog it, that content is a total waste of time.
The issue is not peril on its own. The issue is Blizzard has done nothing but actively make mythic+ worse this entire expansion. It is a combination of tank nerfs, classes being unplayable week to week, the dungeons being over designed with 45 mechanics per pack, stuns doing basically nothing (and actively hurting the pull rather than helping in some cases) etc.
stops do something... you just have to use your brain. It can buy you time for your interrupt to come back. But people just want to faceroll into hardest content without any challenge. Stop change has nothing to do with whats going on here. The game has bigger problems with mechanic overload.
@@artug92 The game does a mechanics problem. It has too many caster mobs and incidental casts that are impossible to manage in a PUG. The fact that an interrupt can overlap is bad design. There’s no way to coordinate kicks in a PUG either, we shouldn’t have to rely on an add-on for assignments either. Just change the way interrupts go on CD if your kick overlapped, perhaps refund or reduce the CD. AoE stops was the answer to that. They failed to cut back on the number of things that need to be interrupted to compensate for the change.
@MikeyJ232 no it's not directly related to stop changes. Because the dungeons were overloaded before the change was made and that's why vdh was meta because it was the only tank that could deal with the mechanic overload issue. However, the new stops are still useful, players just need to be more attentive. Does not change the fact that the mobs definitely need to have reduced mechanics and no mob should chain cast a deadly spell.
Yeah, we get it. You guys cant relate with an average player anymore, so painful to listen to top players with reliable groups tell us why the affix is okay because it doesnt effect them.
Cant carry friends in 8-10 after they max out on heroic gear, only get 5 crests on a deplete so it feels like shit, so have to play without some friends to progress my character and they give up, now I stand in dornogal with my gear and guild dying, I miss dragonflight bros.
As a tank, I can live pulling 2-3 packs at 10ish keys. The group can't live that. I need to pull small because dps drop like flies due to aoe or heal checks I have no control over. Making tanks stronger won't change this.
@@moldgrim1 but it makes easier because as healer you can use defs on others, not like me using both ps to tank cause they dyin all the time with 3-4 packs on them on 12-14 keys
Regarding Timer, it doesn't matter to the 7-10 key range. It is where I am stuck and I can't get an invite or group anyway. Tank and Healer changes making these roles unplayable in Pugs is what killed the saison for me. I literally can't get into +7-8 keys as I have 618/2.2k and they only take 625/2.5k people.
I'm playing Mistweaver this season. The lowest represented healer as best I can tell. I have exclusively pugged my way up to 625/2600 IO. This season is not unplayable, its just more grindy, which is really unfortunate for those with less time to play. I found very quickly that most groups were unwilling to take me in a key unless I had timed the previous key level and had a decent IO/ilvl. Now that I'm a high enough ilvl people are finally accepting me into keys that jump a single key level. None of the healers or tanks are so bad that you cannot do +10s, you just have to be a skilled enough player to actually earn it. Work on your own skill and you will move up through key levels.
“Heroic BRD wasn’t that bad, my group of 630 players blind progged it”
hilarious take, the raid drops 610 ilvl, they should try it at 600 ilvl its brutal
Dont forget the CE players
Tettles - "New raid is fine." Also Tettles - "I was 630 ilvl...." So you did a raid that felt fine and balanced, except you were in gear that was significantly better than what drops. I'm glad the bosses encounters are interesting, but it sounds like their numbers were off, again. Outside of race to world first, the numbers in this expansion have felt bad. M+ feels bad, the farm required for the anniversary event feels bad, the anniversary raid feels bad, class tuning feels bad. So why play a game that feels bad?
this is the first bench podwast i couldnt listen to further then a few minutes, it's unbeliavable how out of touch they are
Same, I was liking it, but this episode left a super sour taste in my mouth. Reading the comments, looks like we're not alone.
Elitist pricks
"i pugged brd on lfg it was fine"
- gets 630 ilvl group of high-key pushers and Hof raiders
PUG but knows who they are lmao
@HappyPow as an aotc raid leader, brd heroic was incredibly out of line with heroic raid expectations.
gotta be 625 for heroic raid when heroic track is max 626 LOL what is this logic
whats an Hof raider?
@@user-vq1vs2xh6i hof is hall of fame. aka the first 100 guilds to clear mythic raid.
“Just get a professional, MDI capable group and make wow a second job” is definitely a take.
Back into your mole holes, mole people.
It didn't sound like that to me.
Find some friends and join a guild, socialize in the game to organize some M+.
It definetly takes more time than hitting LFG, but if you can get past that initial hurdle, it improves the M+ experience overall.
Cheers and good luck out there.
@@Zonalar Maybe some people have a hard time socializing that's why they play a GAME and not an outside group activity... just a possibility among others.
@@whereisthesurvivalhunter9525fine. you have your solo content then. Lots of games out there. WoW have delves now, you can use the followers-function to play the dungeons (i actually did that to learn the mechanics of Dawnbringer), you get to see the story.
But in its core, it's still a multiplayer game. So if thats you're problem and you still chose to play an MMO, don't blame me for suggesting to interact with players and try to make friends.
@@whereisthesurvivalhunter9525funny How most outside activities that people use to socialize are… games :O
Like soccer, volleyball etc in sports are literally games.
Most things people do together as activities are games
Then those people should play a single player game if they are that upset about communication and socializing in a massively multiplayer game trying to do the hardest GROUP COOPPERETIVE content.🤷♂
Wait, they believe you shouldn't time a key after a full wipe? Jesus, these guys are a completely different species from me.. I find that opinion to be ridiculous
It's kinda arbitrary right, like if you can time a key with a wipe, you probably can't time the key the next step up. Conversely, why not 2 wipes? If you go down a level or 2 you can probably wipe 3 times and still time it. IMO it's more fun to lose a key because you missed timer rather than the timer being a complete joke and it's just surviving pulls/bosses that are doing 90% of your hp every ability
@@doubleshine But now you have both you have to survive bolts that do 60-70%+- of your hp even in 10s and can't ever wipe pretty much unless you have a lot of dps to afford it. One bad tank or healer gcd can be like rip whole key, there should be room be some room for failure in that environment.
In theory, yes, you probably shouldn't time a key after a full wipe - after all, you're not beating raid bosses by wiping to them, are you?
But that's really only the theoretical argument because, in reality, that argument becomes pretty fucking stupid if you actually think that having a single wipe over a like 30 minute period should just brick your key. Like, imagine fucking Broodtwister progress but every time you wipe the entire raid resets and you have to clear all the previous bosses again.
And the argument is especially stupid in a gearing / character progression environment. But I'm glad they at least acknowledged that someone who's pretty much exclusively pugging doesn't really progress these dungeons because they're not playing with a consistent group and the next fucking group is just gonna wipe to the same shit again.
All of these are prime reasons as to why a single wipe should probably not ruin your key. And absolutely get lost with that silly "mastery of a key" take - as if your first 2-3 kills of a mythic raid boss would imply you've mastered that boss when what's way more likely is that it'll take you like another 4 IDs before you truly get to the point of mastering the boss (which isn't even a guarantee). So absolutely fucking no, you shouldn't have to "master" a +10 Mists to get your random ass heroic track items that no one really cares about anymore after like 1 week of playing the season.
Absolutely lost take from someone lost inside his own bubble. And while it's not bad to be inside your own bubble, it gets pretty fucking bad when you try to be a public figure and speaking on behalf of "the community", advocating for changes to the game when you have seemingly no idea whasoever, or even just a willingness to imagine, what the game looks like for anyone else but the 100 people like you. And get absolutely fucking lost with that constant "just find friends" take that they all keep bringing up over and over - maybe after repeating that take for another 5 years we'll start realizing how worthless it actually is.
@@t.g7545 There is room for failure in this environment though. Of course a bad tank/healer will hold a group back more than dps. Almost every class can kick, even healers. So many classes have aoe stops. Every class has defensives, and cooldowns to increase dps. Brez's exist.
A full wipe means something big happened, multiple people failed to do something. Depending on what kind of wipe it was (10% of a boss, vs a pack right next to graveyard), it'll be more punishing. All wipes aren't equal, as well as all dungeons are not equal so honestly messups don't brick a key. You can also still complete a depleted key and you still get the gear in the end and in the vault.
But 10s give the highest possible gear in repeatable content. Why shouldn't it be difficult? Shouldn't it be something people actually feel challenged to do? You don't have to be flawless to time a 10.
Its all about key level relative to skill. Should you be able to time a 17 with a wipe? Probably not. A 7? Probably so
“We were 625/630 ilvl and the raid isn’t too hard”… the one dropping hero track 613 gear LOL 🤡
Reminds me of the people that said BRD Heroic tuning wasn’t bad. Yeah, maybe if you had mythic geared players lol
It's like people before the crest changes in m+ saying "it's not that bad to do 10s at 625 IL".
Brother, before 9s you were literally hardstuck 619 all slots and even then had to time 8 keys to get a single upgrade anyway (why did they make crafted 90 crests I have no idea).
This exactly, they are definitely a little out of touch on who this raid is meant for. Take a group in there at 600-606 item level and then let's talk about tuning.
Yeh thats biggest non-sense i have heard in a while like having the incentive to do the raid with full 625 group to get 1 mythic pieces what about all that useless heroic gear that was supposed to be a cool way to have fun and catch up mid of the patch. That podcast is starting to get filled with way too out of touch elitist's takes.
As soon as he said they were 630 ilvl I was like... oh so the thing you overgrared for wasn't hard? No shit Sherlock.
You couldn't get the rewards if you didn't overgear it. If you were at the same ilvl as the gear that drops then it was as hard or harder tuned than mythic is for most progging guilds.
Tettles was incredibly out of touch in a bubble on this take LOL
These guys have absolutely no idea what pug life is like
💯
As someone who does only 10s, mostly pugs, for my vault, this timer change means nothing. Every run is either super clean and we clear with minutes left, or we have 2 wipes by the first boss and everyone leaves. The timer doesn't exist for my keys, it's just can we stop/defensive 100 web bolt casts or can we not?
I second this as someone who pugs 11s.
The timer changes nothing, neither does challenger's peril. whether a group will make it or not becomes apparent pretty early on.
The timer exists for my keys. Arakara and COT are the bane of timing my 10s. For some reason even before I start the last boss I tell the group (pop defensive if you aren't topped during umbral weave, and tremor slam. Or be very careful dispelling yourself to not kill your teammates). So many times, someone does something crazy.
True, interrupt requirements are insane this season and somehow are in their weakest form ever. Some interrupts only have a 2second silence, where aoe stuns become more valuable again
@@Zarod89 while interrupts are insane this season. I have noticed that there is a good amount of must interrupt spells that are cast into channel, so if you hold of on your stop until the channeling starts they still won't recast it and you get to save your kick to stop some of the bolt spam.
- ara kara, web mages with the volley thing
- mists, harvest essence
- GB, the searing mind channel
- NW, drain fluids, repair flesh
@@TheLeroy125as someone who's pugging 14s 15s and finished 13s recently this time literally retroactively timed multiple keys for me lol
"You shouldnt time a key where you have a full wipe" - thank you, Tettles, for validating those pug players that instantly leave a key after wiping once. Great take.
This is the problem with the high level M+ community. They don’t know what it’s like to PUG and how many accumulated hours get wasted each season.
I think the take is fine. Tettles is using the argument that timing a key is "mastery" of a key. If you want to go with that logic it checks out. I even think that works if that's going to be intended, with a change. If you make it so your key doesn't degrade down a level, these problems are gone. You can actually play your key to master it. Do the big pull, figure out the coordination and cohesion, it doesn't work you walk out, reset and walk back in. All the toxicity stems from bricking a key and it degrading down a level.
@@Sacdaddicus problem is any tank death is basically always a full wipe. So this means tanks can’t make any mistakes or a key is just dead. Further removing the incentive to tank
@@ZKrinny Oh I know about that. Maining tank right now. I do feel like tanking is heavily disincentivized. It was kind of a trade off before when tanks were a lot stronger relative to DPS. You have a lot more responsibility than DPS players, but realistically didn't have to be as "good" as your DPS as long as you were knowledgeable. After tank/healer changes it's been more stressful and a lot easier to cause one of those full wipes. Also I'm not an amazing player, ~2400io so take my opinion with a grain of salt.
Not to mention that your tank could, if that were the case, brick your entire key with 2 GCDs of mistake x)
Man, some of these takes are quintessential "WoW is my job so I don't understand the average player perspective." Woof.
they act like they are journalists giving unbiased commentary and that htey speak for everyone. In reality, they are speaking for their fellow elitist pieces of shit speaking for the 1%
Issue is the average player feels entitled to timing keys they don't deserve to time. In a 10 challenger's peril doesn't matter and if it does maybe your group shouldn't be in a 10 to begin with.
@@caroqt tettles, is that you? Not even close to what the average player wants imo but I won't speak for the populace like you apparently have. Please show us your survey data that you did to compile this shit opinion.
People want challenging content with adequate rewards. They don't want to fuck around with rng and systems that reduce their already scarce playing time. THEY DO NOT WANT, bullshit catered to the top 1%. This isn't about 10's. This is about the idea that things are gated due to elitism.
"It shouldn't be the norm to full wipe and time a key" - Tettles completely out of touch with the pug scene.
I've watched some title players pug and they'd often rip easy keys, sometimes even vault filler 10s/20s. Tettles needs to do some of those keys with randos to understand what is really going on.
I think Squishei even suggested something very similar in saying "the first death shouldn't count" or something to that effect. This is that so I think its a solid change.
@@poorchris Idk how your experience is so different, I exclusively PuG too and the vast majority of my 10s are pretty chill throughout, low deaths, just handle pull for pull. You make it sound like you're dropping into Vietnam and tank is dropping every other pull lmao
it even adds to tank anxiety, one mistake and the whole key is bricker. I think adding a buffer of 5 deaths to the affix alleviates to anxiety around making mistakes. I ran a Siege the other night where the healer died and ankhed and died and released and died again in the first minute of the dungeon... like thats griefing at that point.
@@poorchrisI am 2.6k+ io. Its 90% the dps throwing the key in pugs. However I have multiple +10's times with 10 deaths, the main difference is our wipes are usually our only mistakes. When I pug lower keys on my alts those key fail because wipes are in addition to all the other mistakes players are making. Challengers Peril isn't the reason keys are failing, people are just legitimately bad at M+
Brd wasn’t too bad. Ignores that he had a group of 625’s and hero track starts at 610…
Yea the gear disparity between mythic and non-mythic raiders this xpac feels like shit
"Average players usually have 75-80% key success rate" Tettles is LOST lmao
They need someone on this panel who is a 2500-2700 player who mainly pugs and can give a legit perspective. Tettles is clueless.
@@johnd2946They are all clueless. They are at the center of the WOW-donut, which is TINY compared to the vast amount of players that play this game. Honestly, with attitudes likte this, they are bad for the game and the community.
If we count actually COMPLETED keys, yeah, I'm sure the statistics are probably in that range.
The issue is A LOT of "depletes" never finish. If you wipe before Amarth in NW you are probably better off just zoning out since you are failing before the hard part of the dungeon and the writing is already on the wall.
I am a 629/2651 Bdk who only pugs. While I don’t deal with queue times due to tank privilege, i do generally have success in keys. Last week, only 2 10+ keys were bricked out of about 20. Obviously perspectives differ based off of role, but I don’t think the percentage is that ludicrous.
Average player waits while getting declined for a long ass time in lfg and then wipes on first pull when they get into one key
Out of touch as usual lol
This sounds like the "I pug keys all the time" take while having a network of friends and/or an m+ team lmao
"Get some friends" dude has more time on his hands to line up schedules with friends, meanwhile its Tuesday and I haven't done any 10s 😂
Get some friends, quit your job, if you have kids sell them, if you have hobbys not wow stop them, if you have a gf dump her. Then you cant start playing half the hours of these guys
I mean... even if you have time for 1 or 2 keys a week, you can talk to the people in those keys and add them if they're good. Eventually you'll have enough people in your friends list where someone will be on at the same time as you.
@@caroqt I mythic raid 4 hours 3 days between that and studying I just queue with randoms depending on the week, If my schedule was based on work and raiding I agree with you. Not to mention with the anniversary time is very limited.
My eyes have never rolled back so hard than after listening to this episode.
As a DPS in pugs, you *definitely* do progress keys because you need the rating to get allowed into higher keys.
He meant more as “group progress” I think. Obviously you can make progress pugging, but it turns into a slot machine of hoping you get people who have also progged like you.
same for tanks, im sitting on 2750 io , timed all 11s and a 12, im sitting in q over 30+ minutes, only for a dps to die to an avoidable frontal and blaming the heal/tank.
tettles and growl having major issues with m+ getting harder due to scaling issues is hilarious to listen to when it comes right before they both spend 15 minutes wanting m+ to be harder for everyone else.
Yeah, this season sucks. It's sweatlord central. The average player who does M+ casually is really not enjoying this season with the slew of changes that impact player agency (tank nerfs to self-survivability), reduced stops (stuns don't interrupt), insane difficult swings between keys of similar level (Mists vs. Stonevault for example), and challengers peril (which is simply a failed concept).
They added high end keys but completely destroyed the casual experience in the process - why? Let 1-10 be attainable by the average player without it being overly painful and let 11+ scale up with no affixes. People like to play alts and run weekly keys for fun - not anymore. Its week 6 and people are over it.
These podcasts with players who play this game for a living is a completely different perspective than a normal player who gets an hour or two a few nights a week. The barrier to entry shouldn't be that high, it's destroying the playerbase
@@IIIEPINEPHRINE Completely agree, I usually have a few alts I work on once I do my 3 m+ vault slots, now, i think about trying to do alt keys and know how bad the experience is and just dont bother. I main a tank too and am a high commodity, but I just don't want to. The changes suuuck
@IIIEPINEPHRINE the average player who does m+ casually is fine dude... go enjoy your casual 5s... why are you worrying about high keys. If you're a casual, then you shouldn't be doing high keys as per your definition of that player base.
@IIIEPINEPHRINE people aren't over it, and a lot of players are actually working on their third or fourth character. If you try to give me some shit numbers, you gotta consider the Diablo expansion and other events around the game.
What they want is the way it was in the past: m+ that is so easy that you can play 8 hours a week and get max ilvl mythic gear from the vault.
The m+ timer talk was the most out of touch thing i’ve listened to
The bench is normally good at not making these out of touch takes, but I think they just heard the changes right as the podcast started and they shared their raw emotions and takes without the time to sit on it. I'll give them a pass for this one.
I have to agree 100%
Couldn't agree more. I would love to see all 3 of these guys pug on an alt that isn't linked to their main for 1 full week and try again
When I hear these takes I just realize how much wow is not made for me. I just don’t want to invest so much in one videogame. Guess I let my sub run out..
@@kozstreamstv The only problem is that they play wow like a job so they can put in more time in one week than most players play in a month. I think it would give them an interesting perspective change though.
Should change the name to "The Elistist" podcast
Or the mole people podcast lol
nolifes, unemployed, welfare benefiters
Are you hurt?
If you want to follow creators that play worse than you, there'll be nothing to learn from them.
Chill they are not that good, you suck that's why you think they are good
The opinion about the BRD raid is incredibly ignorant. Complaining about it's difficulty is not asking for free loot. The fact of the matter is, that it's numerically overtuned for the gear it expects and the gear it gives out. It's much harder than Nerub'ar Heroic, but rewards early Heroic track gear, despite needing much more. The biggest issue here really, is that the mechanics of each boss are unbelievable easy and mundane, but the numbers tuning around them is incredibly overtuned. Has nothing to do with Freeloot.
Also the gear itself is pretty bad and lacks all mastery, so you're probably polluting your vault pool by running it. Good design.
100%, in this video Tettles says that if you get a 625 grp it's not that hard like HUH?! dude you know that max heroic track is 626 right? LOL so you need to be full heroic gear to do a heroic raid? bruh moment
For someone who watches OneAzeroth often, Growl sure is out of touch and Tettles is far worse having hardly pugged in his life it seems.
"You can get full hero track reasonably from Delves." -- So reasonable loot is 1-2 pieces PER week? completely RNG? For hero track? Tettles has to start an alt and ONLY do Delves on it, and come back and repeat those words with a straight face.
and also play it maybe 10-20 hours a week at most. 6-10 hours a day
if all you are doing is delves then the gear progression is just fine
you can get to 619 just from delves easly
oh yea didnt you hear you can EASILY be at 619ilvl JUST from delves when they reward 608ilvl champion track gear and rarely a 613ilvl hero track item and 8 delves give you enough crests to maybe upgrade one level of an item. (this community is so braindead)
@@azkendarken4403 and the level of progression is just fine if all you are doing is delves. If you are planning on doing harder content then the whole argument is void because you will then progress in that content with its rewards. The brain dead syndrome seems to be there lol
i have come to the podcast these days only to see how out of touch you guys are from week to week, its incredible how skewed you guys are on the real version of the game for most people lol gives me a good laugh each week
Everything these guys talk about is self serving and completely out of touch with the player base. Everything for them is about protecting their online revenue stream. They are pieces of shit.
I don't understand the COMPLETE 180 regarding this group the past 2-3 weeks. Ever since the expansion dropped every week you all have been complaining about Peril and Guile. Now they nerf Peril you say skill issue and it wasn't the problem? Where was this mentality 3 weeks ago where you spent half the episode talking about solutions if not outright removing of Peril??
They wanna gatekeep
the gear goggles is kinda wild. The mechanics arent hard when everyone in raid is 620-630. thats just not where most people with lives outside of wow are at.
Also they should ABSOLUTELY balance every single fucking week.
You know how bad it sucks to have your class at the bottom and know it will stay there for the entire patch?
Tettles so out of touch with PUGs. Yeah maybe 14+ keys, sure wipe-> deplete but like any key under that is just stupid in PUG group
lol tettles take on peril is the take of the top 0.1% “wahhhhh my push keys” cool story bro, glad to know you’re so out of touch that your opinion can be safely ignored by the bottom 99.9%. Actual F tier take lol
Adding 90 seconds to the timer tells me that Blizzard is afraid to admit that they made a mistake with the death affix.
Holding back from fixing bad designs or tuning because you think it invalidates your progress is just backwards. Blizzard already retroactively applied time to your previous keys as they always have.
It is an extremely ugly and uninspired band aid on an already ugly affix. If they are stubborn and going to keep the death affix they should have made it something like +1s per death with a grace period if deaths occur within same amount of seconds as the penalty.
Example:
1st death is 5s penalty, 2nd 6s penalty, 3rd 7s penalty, 4th 8 seconds penalty etc.
If entire group have 3 deaths already. And you wipe within 8s you only gets penalized 8s per death (40s total). Instead of 8+9+10+11+12 (50s total)
Next time someone dies after this wipe you get penalized 9s with a grace period of 9s.
@@Mangeol
I personally think any convoluted solution we can come up is a waste of time when you can just outright remove the affix. Who’s going to complain? Less than 5% of the community? They live in their own bubble and shouldn’t be catered to.
If you must keep the affix, why not just add a time bonus after each boss for every player alive by the end of the fight? It rewards doing the mechanics.
This argument that I hear from top key pushers, “you shouldn’t be allowed to wipe a dozen times and time the key” doesn’t make sense either.
You already lose a significant amount of time on a full wipe with running back and losing your trinket buffs. Every death naturally slows down your time because it’s less damage going out on a boss.
Removing the affix doesn’t allow groups with excessive wipes to magically time keys. What it will do is stop this trend of players disbanding keys after one or two wipes.
@MikeyJ232 also, death affix wouldn't be so bad if they actually give us proper checkpoints. People don't realize how long it takes to walk back and there is no reason or rhyme to why some bosses have checkpoints and some doesn't. Giving us a stupid bay to fly is not a checkpoint. This is more infuriating than the death timer affix. The solution should be simple. You kill a boss, you get a checkpoint and after that even if they keep the death timer at 15s, it wouldn't be as punishing.
it really feels like they're speedrunning how fast they can burn up all of the good will they established in Dragonflight
All burnt already imo
Honestly both Growl and Tettles have some completely out of touch takes in this episode, it's probably the worst episode of this podcast so far. Imagine unironically saying that BRD is not overtuned because you and your friends with 625-630 ilvl gear were able to do it just fine. Hey idiots, how about you go on an alt with 615 ilvl without it being linked to your main account and see what kind of pug you get accepted by and let us know if you manage to kill the 3rd boss.
Also Growl's take that gearing is the best its ever been is so outside the realm of reality that I have to wonder if he's just outright trolling at this point, most people playing in the game are hard stuck at 622 ilvl, but I'm sure they will be filled with joy to hear that he's so happy to still get upgrades so long into the tier on his 635 ilvl characters.
I don't get why they decided to become so precious with Myth-track loot. Putting the myth-track vault 3 shelves higher than in DF without any notice or rationale just doesn't make sense. A large part of the player-base has been able to get myth-track vault spots relatively easily in previous seasons. Making myth-track gear come from 10s which are: Tyrannical AND Fortified AND a -15 sec death affix AND the change to stops/ccs AND the current dungeon difficulty AND then the resulting pugging exclusivity and toxicity, is insane. You don't need to be a little better than before or have a little bit more time. You need to be 5x better and have 5x more time for a LESSER reward: myth-track drops at a lower upgrade level and takes longer to upgrade. The very best players with pre-made groups will always be able to get the best rewards faster than anyone else. Who cares if "worse" players (people who can't game for days at a time) take longer to get the same rewards. The more advanced gamers will always perform better and get higher scores and do their sweaty thing. The divide is firmly in place and the peasant masses just trying to max their vault like they always have been able to are being pushed down and punished more than ever.
This is the take right here
But why should you get myth track if you can't do a simple +10? And if you're not doing high content what do you need myth track for? 😂
@@caroqt Gatekeeping at its finest. Let's talk about the reward structure. I am a player that can and does do 10s. And consistently get CE. The changes from the past expansion to this are much too harsh for a specific set of players. Not in difficulty only but in valuing someone's time. So I can do 10s fine with a group of friends. What is much less consistent is pugging. My question is why continue to gate keep an already time gated source of once a week chance at loot? To me it's not the less skilled players that are hurt by the system. It's the players that don't have as much free time.
As someone who fills my vault with 10s since week 2. I still don’t understand why they put myth gear at 10s. If they want that to be the stretch goal for most players then myth gear at 9 as a way for them to slowly progress and make the goal more attainable makes sense.
Also as to your conversation last week. I think a mount recolor of the mythic mount would be a good reward for all 12s and change the token helm and shoulder thing for 2500 to a full class set recolor. That would be like 100x better than the current system.
One podcast has Day9 the other one has you shouldn't be able to time a key after 1 wipe takes. I know who is winning the war.
With the way respawn points are in a few dungeons, 90 seconds does not equal 6 deaths.
Disagree on the utility point by growl around 42:45, as a warrior i would kill a dev for more utility; i've even swapped to dracthyr just to have a somewhat useful button!
I think blizzard needs to do a better job making utility more universal. Take utility and defensives off the GCD to remove the "feels bad, lost a GCD", messed up rotation, interrupted ramp issue.
Guardian Druid felt best when incapRoar, SI, And Frenzy Regen we're off GCD. The same would go for pretty much any spec. Enhancement kick/dispell/totems would all feel great if they didn't mess with rotation or GCD.
Another change I'd make is remove kick overlap eating the CD to be more pug friendly. Yes people will macro it onto shit but if they wanna waste their kick on low priority kicks that's on them. Tune accordingly.
I play all roles of Pally because of how good the utility feels.
My biggest issue with peril was always that it makes pugging so much harder. Because one guy will stand in swirlies or not defensive and then you lose like 10 deaths just to that one player. As a result pugs are now dramatically more selective about who they bring. This doesn't address that issue at all.
Sure, on a conceptual level that person doesn't deserve to time that key. Depleting the key doesn't make any sense conceptually, unless it was his key, but not timing it is fine.
But the second order effects of it taking 3x longer to get into a group aren't worth it. I don't pay a sub just to sit in Dornogol.
Tettles-we are 625 and it's fine. This statement makes sense but there is still a gap in gear progression for gilded crests. If you don't mythic raid or do 8+s you can't get gilded. Let's say it's a group of 10-15 people who are solid players who hop in for raid. The best they can really get is 620 ish unless they start farming out m+ or hugging mythic. I like the idea of 1 myth track per week. Pretending like there is only 1 raid for a second you get 30 gilded if you kill queen and queen is pretty tough so I'm sure many who heroic are still progressing her. But your hero track stuff is still capped. And I think this issue Is more prominent because it's so easy to get Hero track gear. so you go from explosive growth on ilv to stagnation. Smoother curve all around wouls be nice.
TLDR: there needs to be a better bridge to myth track. maybe vault is the answer or a weekly?
The comments made me sigh of relief that I’m not the only one who thought these were some of the worst takes on what’s going on with WoW…
The issue with BRD is mostly like who is it for? The gear it drops is mostly worse than the gear in nerubar, and save for queen I would argue the difficulty is on par or a little harder in BRD on average. So like it's not good for gearing alts, our mains don't want it, so after you clear it once for fun why ever do it again? It doesn't have to be a loot pinata, but it's much easier to pug the first few bosses on heroic for gear than try to do heroic BRD.
Edit: also tettles take of "I don't want it to be nerfed because if you over gear the content by 6 entire item levels, half a tier of gear, it's not bad" is not great.
The problem with Chalenger's Peril isn't that blizz is failing to achieve what the want, the problem is that what they want is fundamentally less fun then how m+ used to be. It is FUN to try to double and triple pull packs and they are doing everything they can to make that not happen.
Dratnos had a spot on take about this. The game in legion had an issue with people being able to pull wayyy too much and just wipe kill trash too easily. That has not been the case in a long time though, yet, blizzard keeps trying to push people towards never doing anything interesting and just playing safe in their keys.
I agree, I feel they shifted the threshold where missed globals leads to deaths all the way down to weekly vault key levels. In shadowlands, you didn’t wipe for missing a kick til 5 keys over the max vault reward.
@@validname10 if u missed a kick in a SL 15 you were dead. Your memory is messing with you.
Wow this brd feels like a heroic raid. It just takes longer than a mythic boss to kill with people who are 630 ilvl
As someone with no friends who is shit at this game, the change didn't effect me much. I am one Heroic Queen kill away from being done with the season after getting KSM.
30-40 minutes getting into a PUG group, only to disband after a wipe. Back to the queue-pugging this season is a nightmare
Sometimes wow players make me feel old, but hearing Tettles not know what Internet Relay Chat is was on another level.
I think the change to challengers peril is a good change for community perception. The amount of leavers after one wipe or death in 5-8 keys is insanely high.
They truely believe they wont time the key, and its very untrue at those key levels.
4:04 great change. No point in crying over "what might have been" if this change existed earlier. We are where we are now, and I'm glad to have the extra time. Would I rather the entire affix not exist? Yes, but this is better than just having the 15s penalty without added time.
The OL rogue exploit talk, especially from Growl, is psychotic.
If the bank accidentally leaves the vault open, that doesn't mean it's totally legal to go in and take as much cash as you can stuff into your pockets. That's still stealing and you should still be punished.
yeah i thought that was maybe the most egregious take of this entire podcast, and there were bad takes all around. Like bruh, if you have to do a 10 step sequence to break your rotation and double your dam, that is obviously an intentional exploit. it's no different from smoke bombing on lich king.
It will never not be funny to me to know that some people genuinely thought Growl was a man of the people, insane
He's literally made up multiple slurs for casuals “civillians” and “mole people” people can take that how they want.
my problem with peril is it doesn't really doooo anything other than lower the natural failure threshold. Like they're talking about how you shouldn't be able to time a key if you wipe, which first of all lol, but also that was already the case once you got high enough. The deaths were already punishing with the 5 seconds, the loss of dps and the runback, if you were doing like, an 18 ulda last season, it was pretty common that if you DID wipe one time, that key is basically bricked. All this affix did was lower that failure point x amount of key levels, x being different based on whatever group your in skill level/dps to make up for it. It seems entirely unnecessary and all it did was create an enviornment that makes people disband more often even if they can still time the key, it just shifted the mentality in a negative way.
M+ player.....2 weeks in a row now all my mythic track pieces i either already have or are downgrades.....only wearing 2 crafted myth and 1 myth track from vault. Huge let down on reset when there are so many upgrades I need but have only got the same slots every week. That kind of terrible luck makes ppl very frustrated.
I agree on coordinated in com groups with what you all say. However most of the player base is pugging and much less talented. I consider myself a good tank but not great. I study videos, routes and spend a good amount of time learning what is best. And it’s not the peril by itself. It’s that mixed with stuns not stopping the ICD of the 55 gazillion rapid fire casters. They set up the dungeons to pull less even in great teams. The peril is just more punishing on top. Move it to 12’s and take away guile and that fixes it all.
Raid leader "hey Steve is doing 3x his normal damage. Nothing wrong here"
Yeah, the take that BRD isn't that bad. It feels like a "heroic raid" take from people that are 630 ilvl and over half way fully mythic geared. That means the raid is overtuned for the loot it drops, because you're characters should make it feel like a normal raid at that Ilvl. If the loot were better it might feel more worthwhile, but I went into it expected it to be a relatively easy time for my guild that is progressing early mythic bosses. We were clearing bosses, but I was having a miserable time.
The expectation was not set for this raid to feel as highly tuned as it was. That's what bothers me the most, I am fine to progress difficult content. But a anniversary timewalking event raid would normally be more for novelty then difficulty.
"I hate that dooming gets clicks and I worry about being a part of it" in a video called WORST PATCH EVER!?!? is extremely based, lmao
I think we have seen a massive ramp in M+ and a massive decrease in the rewards you can get. Mythic track gear used to be much easier to obtain in M+ in DF compared to now and that accompanied with a ramp in M+ difficulty has gotten a negative outlook from the community. I understand it because people in WoW complain about everything but the difficulty vs reward curve just feels bad even as a midcore player. I think the top end community of M+ might be happy but everyone else doesn't really want to participate and I have seen plenty of people avoid it all together or just do one key for vault all week.
I embraced my status as a mole person this season so I get my entertainment from watching Timewalking dungeons explode due to the wacky scaling.
Its def a feel bad moment since they squished the reward curve in a bad way. I used to work to getting myth track vaults then after getting a few of those then work to portals. Now all the rewards are tied to 10s. That combined with delves being so brain dead easy makes that gap between t8 delves and even +8 keys feel like an absolutely insurmountable chasm of dificulty.
1: I think they did revert all the top Outlaw keys @tettles
2: THey should have made a mythic difficulty of BRD, tuned down heroic a bit and actually made it a fully progable raid tier with appropriate rewards. It's too difficult for people in 619 gear, no incentive to do it in higher gear.
For the last 3 expansions, the entire aim of the dev team is to reduce big pulls. Big pulls throws off the game engine, class balance and many more. This is how we got capped aoe, the inspired affix and many more game features such as the current ara kara damage reduction of big mobs etc. They went with death timer and static linear dungeon pulls just to force this. Also, the stops not acting like an interrupt is another feature in this regard. They will do anything to stop people from pulling big, and pulling big is fun.
They had the curve perfect in s4 of dragonflight and I hoped the changes would be more fun but they aren't. There are no push goals in M+ anymore. All the rewards are from 10s now. I used to casually farm myth tracks then work on portals. Now its one and the same so its just 10s for all the stuff and its just a question is it worth the effort to go from t8 delves hero gear to farming 10s for the next tier of gear and portals.
It's a weird arc where I feel like I need to listen to the PoddyC for normie takes.
Correction: they did not know these affixes were a thing because the affixes were designed way after the dungeons were designed
Tettles, I don't think you can judge how difficult the raid was if your group had 630 item level, try it on an alt.
Who does tettles think he is being the arbiter of myth track gear from BRD.
I’m 45 min in and this is just full of bad takes. I’m an Ele player and have been for way too long. Got no sympathy for ele they are eating pretty good. But just managing to be in the top quarter of classes we are eating good this expac? If it is what you’ve accepted that it’s meta driven and different classes are strong at different times. Ok fine. As someone who prefers to play one or two specs that’s ok sometimes I will be strong sometimes I will be weaker. So where’s the sympathy for ele? We have been strong for two days since mythic plus was released in legion. One raid tier where we were good and that was a three boss tier. We are back to bottom tier in single target and middle of the pack aoe in general play. The class was ok in 11.0 and didn’t need to be touched. Dude the class hasn’t seen a rework since legion. It’s been neglected and brushed off to the side repeatedly while the classes that are always strong get tons of attention. We finally get n attempt at a rework and it’s broken in half because we are an afterthought. Do you have any idea of the degenerative game play we had in 11.0 hoping the rest of the rework would make sense? It does the class is much more fun to play and more dynamic. But now we back to the gutter. Not even elitest takes which are fine for your audience but just ignorant unaware commentary.
1:19:24 "I didn't think it was too hard just bring a group full of 625 people"
Brother, the raid drops 613 gear. No one 625 has any reason to go in. You are TWENTY IL over the people this difficulty is designed for. No shit it isn't hard.
they don't get the pug scene at all, this timer is giving us more breathing room because someone stupidity that's pretty much it
Couple of things here, 1st does it matter if your runs previous to changes feel invalidated when you all are just going to push the highest keys possible anyways? Like the high end key pushers make the game more difficult than the average player can do anyways so why does it matter?
2. This change only affects 11s below, the timers aren’t longer for the dungeon, you only get the additional 90 seconds if the affix is active on the key so it doesn’t matter once you get into 12s and up
This affix 100% kills pugs.
The issue is that coordinated groups can deal with it. But when 1 wipe makes pugs FEEL the key is bricked and they just leave.
The key adds to the kind of performance pressure that over arches the toxicity in pug m+.
Edit: the graveyard problem is 100000000% overlooked. Amazing point.
How? I pugged to 3k as a healer. It doesn't kill pugs, it just makes bad players (there's a lot of them in lfg, I get it) struggle to climb which is very different from the free 23-27 keys we had in s3 DF. The truth is the bad players should not make it to 12s or higher until they deserve to.time those keys instead of dying 10 times and getting carried.
I like how growls take is blizzard thinks we suck so they give us more time rather than these dungeons are too hard in general
I have pugged 2 toons to 2.6k io, all 10s, that challengers peril discussion is the most out of touch thing ive ever heard. So many times in a pug you have one person do a mechanic wrong and wipe a group or one dps dying over and over or a healer that doesnt hit his cds fast enough. Its already punishing losing the time of the deaths and runbacks themselves, the extra 15s is very unnecessary
We should be able to do a 10 with some deaths absolutely... no death runs should be for people who are pushing high keys which are currently 15's
Even before the change you could have deaths in +10s and still time. Hell in several of my timed 10's we've had a full wipe and added a few stray deaths as well. Does rolling the dice on if your group will make enough mistakes to deplete suck? Yeah it does, but that is literally part of the game. Adapt or find a level of playing the game that is more appropriate to your skill level.
They do need to be careful tuning Enh Shaman, because there’s a HUGE disparity between an average vs good player in dps. Enhance only shines in the right hands. Just look at all the geared horrible Enh Shammy in LFG
that never applied to other difficult specs in the past, both for over and under performers.
@@Jayberryjam well yeah, the point is not to make the same mistakes of the past out of being envious, the point is to be better.
Time and challengers peril is not what is making people quit. The tuning and sheer amount of mechanics compared to DF on top of the gear progression changes has killed the want to play for so many people. Also it is ridiculous that people think that 1 full wipe should end up in not timing a key. Wherever that "deaths vs timing" line lies, 1 full wipe is ridiculous to have that line at... IMO that line should be 3 full wipes worth of deaths with above average dps. This elitism needs to stop, it is really killing the playerbase.
Growls how bumed out we feel is related to how fun we are having hit me hard. I was having so much fun in dragonflight and I have not been having fun in TWW. So I'm not that bumed out from the patch but the expansion as a whole have been buming me out.
Remember at the start of the season when they were reducing dungeon timers? Pepperidge farm remembers.
As a shaman player since BC i dunno why people ever thought we were allowed to be good. theres no way this lasts lol
I dont remember if it was just the community or blizzard but I thought blizzard wanted to avoid the shadowlands balancing issues. Adding the new talent trees then putting hero talents on top of them seems similar to shadowlands where there are so many variables they have to deal with. They are making more work for themselves that they dont need to be doing. How many class and talent reworks are there constantly? Its just bad management that they are making problems for themselves.
The bench podcast is in shambles with all these comments. I want to see them reply to these comments saying theyre out of touch and elitist. I love it.
Its just a bad affix all together and it breeds toxicity. The group already loses so much time when people die purely on dps loss. We have all been in that pug where a VDH double jumps the entire stone vault hallway dies and then says keys already over.
That Azralon/Ragnaros/Quelthalas VDH who dies on the first pull and leaves immediately.
@@johnd2946 hahahaha i didnt want to say that but yes....
@@Ratatoeskrrr I assume your calling me toxic, but either way I just want my keys to not be bricked and uncompleted because of one mistake. I don't care if someone makes mistake I just hate that the mistake leads to people leaving because they can no longer time it after one wipe. Once again, there's enough time loss from simply one dps dying why double down on that.
@@Ratatoeskrrr your missing the point though, why is blizzard doubling down on punishment. It is a lazy addition to m+ because they couldn't come up with better ideas.
@@Ratatoeskrrr get rid of key deplete and ill be happy, at least when someone randomly disconnects, or rage leaves I can redo it
At around 15:50 they briefly show a CD spreadsheet for the last boss of CoT is there an already made one like this for every dungeon that someone can share??
Ele Shaman here. (not Resto or Enhance) we have not been eating well this expansion. This last week has been whiplash (recraft gear, be OP, be forecasted to be bottom of the charts)
There's one massive thing that everyone's overlooking with the rework as well. We took a massive nerf to defensives with the removal of Flash of Lightning's cooldown reduction. Basically doubled defensive cds. Ele is fine in lower keys but everything except Astral Shift is almost useless in like 13+s. You're forced to get covered by rescues, sacs, or other externals. Doesn't matter for vast majority of people but sucks for such a big change in the middle of the season.
"The concept of ‘Blizzard polish’-the extreme care and loving detail put into every aspect of the games we make-is something we take seriously and pride ourselves on delivering to our players."
Peril spreads the impact off just tanks and healers??? I bricked a key because a tank died instantly on a pack, wiping the whole group. Who cares if we’re back at the pack in no time when we’ve lost a minute and a half off the timer in just 15seconds. It just feels bad when there is literally no recovering from that. You can’t just squeeze a little more dps in the last few packs to make it up.
I’m currently doing 8/9s in PUGs and I don’t see this making a huge difference honestly. Most of my issues are still with specific bosses not dying to trash. I got to the last boss in Ara Kara with 10 mins to go last week in a PUG +9 and we finished it 30 mins later…
The thing it feels like they aren't getting about Challenger's Peril is that for PUGs, you're just WAY more likely to have a "stinker" in your group, so it feels like a real crapshoot if you can time the key. And there isn't really a great mechanism to tell because even with IO, people can underperform, tanks and healers might not gel, etc so there's just way more variation that the Challenger's Peril exacerbates, even without full wipes.
Yeah I'm done listening to a 45 minute circlejerk every single week over how PUGs handle M+ when none of these guys do PUGs as their main method of running it. Completely out of touch.
The problem was never timer. It's that to get beyond heroic level gear you are required to do content that is simply harder than it ever has been for that level of reward. We're not even talking about doing more damage here, it's surviving. Previously you roll your face along the keyboard and do keys that gave you myth 1 gear. I'm guessing blizzard is seeing key failure stats and thinking timing will be an easy fix, they fail to realize the group will just disband on the 2nd wipe now.
I'd suggest if you'd like to see the pub situation right now, throw on some heroic (4/6) delve gear and try to time some 10s in a pub.
Pubs usually dont have good internet... I wont do a key in a pub man... Pubs are also very loud, cant focus
This is the only person in the comments that gets it. The gap between T8 delves and M+ 10's is ridiculous - and Challengers peril just magnifies this 1000%.
If the Myth track rewards were at a 9 then you would only get one of either Tyran or Fort and way more keys would be timed (regardless of Challengers Peril) - which in time would lead to 10's being timed as the gear would allow people to catch up.
@barreh69 most of the time gear is not the issue though. That's a misconception. People giving up after first wipe is a problem even after they wait in queue to invite over geared people. People dying to swirlies, and frontals is an issue not the gear... so yeah what's the point of having gear if people can't even time their dps cds correctly. That's a clear excuse and has nothing to do with why pugs fail a lot of the keys.
Pugs don't show the effort required to time a key and they are not willing to learn from their mistakes.
They want to be carried and give up when the carry doesn't happen, it's simple as that.
@@artug92 I agree with everything you said.
I didn’t say gear was the issue. I said the gap between a T8 delve and a M+ 10 is huge, which is natural gearing progression. Maybe nerfing delve rewards and forcing people into M+ sooner to actually learn the content would be the best fix.
I also said in time gear would help, which it would… no it doesn’t fix stupidity but it does mean less damage taken, higher healing, more health, more damage done etc
Yeah try doing 10s week 1-4 where you don't have gear or io so it's a struggle to get a half decent group together and watch the veng dh tank die on the first pull and leave, now you gotta do a 9 nice try, repeat until you get a couple 10s timed, and then you can finally actually do keys without it being a coin flip if you can complete it or not.
BRD feels really bad because it doesn't give any mastery gear and they hurt possibility of great vault
As a pokemon vgc player nothing scarier than Squishys costume.
Totally agree with having another intermediate step up from AotC but can't do Mythic Raid because of forced group size. My guild was planning on basically quitting after AotC but now we have something to keep doing. I think we may be unique though that we just enjoy doing the content for content as a group of friends, not because BiS Gear is the goal.
Every single take is wrong here, what just happened ?
Exploiters shouldnt get banned from Growl.
Heroic BRD is fine, just get your 630 ilvl MDI mythic pushers friends and its easy from Tettles.
Dripfed timegated gacha gearing is fine from Growl.
I like the podcast but that must have been the most out of touch 0.01% top players takes I have ever seen. I've never given credit to the idea that Blizzard designs for the top and bottom 1% but this podcast was horrible in that regard.
You know that’s growl right?
@@justin9744 Mb, mister cat avatar, edited post :p
Growl been on the cheaters' side this whole expac so far its kind of funny. Ridiculous these guys think they can speak for the community. Personally I think perma-bans would do nicely.
Agree with most of the comments down below that this feels like the most out of touch The Bench has been since the start of the podcast.
BRD is harder than Nerub-ar on Heroic and the difficulty in itself isnt bad if you put difficulty in a Vacuum, but the difficulty is way to high for the rewards you get. The Bench should go in with a group that is 610 to 615 and then go through it. If you run in there with 625-630 it obviously will feel ok.
Won't harp on the 75-80% successful pug runs. Overall from 2-9, maybe, but I think the 7-9 pug runs are dragging it down the most. THis is due to the easy gear track from delves which has been beaten to death.
For the challengers peril add 90 seconds. Just make Xala'taths Guilde subtract 90 seconds and you fix the 12+ problem that Growl pointed out.
Guys, you're not gear driven because you no life the game and already have the gear. People sitting around 605-610 who want to progress but can only play for an hour or two a day absolutely need the difficulty of content to correlate with the gear dropped. If you're still badly needing gear and they drop another raid to prog that doesn't drop the gear you need to prog it, that content is a total waste of time.
The issue is not peril on its own. The issue is Blizzard has done nothing but actively make mythic+ worse this entire expansion. It is a combination of tank nerfs, classes being unplayable week to week, the dungeons being over designed with 45 mechanics per pack, stuns doing basically nothing (and actively hurting the pull rather than helping in some cases) etc.
stops do something... you just have to use your brain. It can buy you time for your interrupt to come back. But people just want to faceroll into hardest content without any challenge. Stop change has nothing to do with whats going on here. The game has bigger problems with mechanic overload.
@@artug92
The game does a mechanics problem. It has too many caster mobs and incidental casts that are impossible to manage in a PUG.
The fact that an interrupt can overlap is bad design. There’s no way to coordinate kicks in a PUG either, we shouldn’t have to rely on an add-on for assignments either. Just change the way interrupts go on CD if your kick overlapped, perhaps refund or reduce the CD.
AoE stops was the answer to that. They failed to cut back on the number of things that need to be interrupted to compensate for the change.
@@MikeyJ232 already mentioned the mechanic overload issue..
@@artug92 Yes but that is directly related to the stops change. That plus the changes to tanking has made M+ a lot less enjoyable.
@MikeyJ232 no it's not directly related to stop changes. Because the dungeons were overloaded before the change was made and that's why vdh was meta because it was the only tank that could deal with the mechanic overload issue. However, the new stops are still useful, players just need to be more attentive. Does not change the fact that the mobs definitely need to have reduced mechanics and no mob should chain cast a deadly spell.
Yeah, we get it. You guys cant relate with an average player anymore, so painful to listen to top players with reliable groups tell us why the affix is okay because it doesnt effect them.
Cant carry friends in 8-10 after they max out on heroic gear, only get 5 crests on a deplete so it feels like shit, so have to play without some friends to progress my character and they give up, now I stand in dornogal with my gear and guild dying, I miss dragonflight bros.
also heroic BRD is not doable at the ilvl they recommend for it and ofc it's easy at 625 ilvl.
I'd rather they make tanks tankier than nerf affixes. It really feels like they're balanced around having an aug, and no one in my guild plays it lol
As a tank, I can live pulling 2-3 packs at 10ish keys. The group can't live that. I need to pull small because dps drop like flies due to aoe or heal checks I have no control over. Making tanks stronger won't change this.
@@moldgrim1 but it makes easier because as healer you can use defs on others, not like me using both ps to tank cause they dyin all the time with 3-4 packs on them on 12-14 keys
Regarding Timer, it doesn't matter to the 7-10 key range. It is where I am stuck and I can't get an invite or group anyway. Tank and Healer changes making these roles unplayable in Pugs is what killed the saison for me. I literally can't get into +7-8 keys as I have 618/2.2k and they only take 625/2.5k people.
Make your own group and take those 625/2.5k ppl to carry you problem solved
@@gusp1456 This. Those people want easy crests and queue up to blast some dungeons in the 8-10 range.
run your own key, if you think you can time all those keys without a problem. Problem solved.
I'm playing Mistweaver this season. The lowest represented healer as best I can tell. I have exclusively pugged my way up to 625/2600 IO. This season is not unplayable, its just more grindy, which is really unfortunate for those with less time to play. I found very quickly that most groups were unwilling to take me in a key unless I had timed the previous key level and had a decent IO/ilvl. Now that I'm a high enough ilvl people are finally accepting me into keys that jump a single key level.
None of the healers or tanks are so bad that you cannot do +10s, you just have to be a skilled enough player to actually earn it. Work on your own skill and you will move up through key levels.
@@Cyax0k exactly