Why didn't Ned tell Cat about Jon?
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- Опубліковано 10 лют 2025
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I can answer with a quote from Benjamin Franklin: "Three can keep a secret if two of them are dead."
Old Ben was a man of wisdom.
A lot knew about Jon then 3
What if one of them is dead? Lyanna already was
@dakotalange2858 other than Three Eyed Crow, who?
And that is how the secret was kept. The other two are dead
Cat’s ire for the boy only solidified the lie was truth even more. Ned was smart not to tell Cat just for that simple extra bit of protection for Jon. Her anger made the lie plausible.
Good point
Nothing about Ned was ever done by savviness. The man was ruled by his honor. For better or worse. Even if this one act HAPPENED to be what a more intelligent game player would do, Ned did not do it because it was the smart thing to do. he did it because he considered it the RIGHT thing to do.
Was thinking same thing. He knew how jealous and/or petty she was and wanted the optics to make it that much more plausible.
nah. He could just as easily have pulled the ''I am the Lord you should obey me, and I am honourable so I won't let my wife treat my son like crap'' card. He just allowed it cos he was weak willed.
@@DraconimLt Wow! I'm sure your "Lordly Authority" could stop any negative emotions from growing secretly and protect the child from daggers. Way to go Champ!
He just saw the mountain crush the head of the last king's children.
It would be a question of - "how long before the Mountain is sent to kill Jon?" - I better keep this quiet as long as I can...
I think another good question is what would Ned do if they came north to kill Jon? Would Ned go to war behind it?
@@kyantechristian9747 he would defy them for a moment. Put Jon on a boat to Bravos. Then present a (fake - not Jon) dead kid to Robert.
Yes, I think he would.
@@kyantechristian9747Ned would absolutely go to war for Jon. He went to war for his mother
@@peterwindhorst5775I don’t think he would sacrifice another innocent baby, to save Jon though
It's very clear why. Because Ned promised. And Ned keeps his word. Also, i think therexs something of Neds character at play. The Silent Wolf. He keeps his thoughts and secrets to himself.
But as usual, Robert has a great take here.
Promise me, Ned
That’s why
Silent Wolf. I like that. I think there were several reasons, but Jon safety is the most important thing
Silent Wolf is a beautiful idea, because, and correct me if I'm wrong, Ghost is named Ghost because he's so silent. Like the secret about Jon's parents reflects in his wolf
Another reason is that Cat is a Tully and their motto "Family, Duty, Honor." Family comes first, then duty and honor is last. Ned was probably afraid that if Cat would be forced to choose between Jon and her own children, she would choose them. Also Cat could've told someone she trusted like her sister Lysa or her childhood friend Petyr which would've been a disaster.
He had clearly never really given it that kind of thought until he was in King's Landing.
I literally just finished the chapter where Sansa makes him realize Robert's kids aren't his.
He has clearly never looked at the scale of Jon vs the Stark kids like this before that point.
I think the "family, duty, honor" is a big reason for him not telling cat. I also think cat would've respected Ned less if he did tell her, because he wouldn't be putting his own family above honor or duty.
@@jeffwhite5007 Jon is his sister’s son making him family
If the point of all this is to keep Jon safe and If Cat was forced to choose between Jon and her own children while thinking Jon is her nephew, how is that worse than her thinking Jon is her husband's bastard?
@@xi0because the bastard jon snow would not be much in danger but jon Targaryen would be
There was no way Jon would be safe if it got out. The way people spied and gossiped, Ned couldn't take the chance that they were over heard, or she told her sister, who would then tell Little Finger. I am sure there were times he saw Cat mistreat Jon that Ned wanted to tell her. Unfortunately by then if she started treating Jon differently then people would notice and want to know why.
Great point.
"Tragic, flawed, but wonderful Ned."
Robert in the first days of his crown would have had him killed. The betrayal of lyanna would have sealed it. That would have hurt him worse than thinking she was kidnapped and raped. If she had loved that dragon spawn, his fury would be terrifying
Iyanna didn’t betray him. She never liked him! The war literally started because a man couldn’t control his emotions. Just like in real life……
You don't understand Robert, he's trash, but hates getting his hands dirty.
With Elia's kids for example, he wouldn't have had them killed, but in a small way, he's glad the Lannisters did it for him, freeing him from responsibility
, *rash*
Robert isn't a child killer. He may have been glad the Lannisters killed the Targaryen children, but he wouldn't have made that decision on his own. He was very easily persuaded not to kill Dany who was a teenager
Its very likely Ned *promised* Lyanna specifically to never to tell anyone about Jon. Eddard doesn’t really break promises unless totally forced. Keeping a promise is more important than telling the truth, to Ned
He may have also had collaborators still alive who he needed to protect
I think this is the most compelling theory of them all
Ned made promises, plural, to Lyanna. He thinks of “the price he paid to keep them” but he also thinks of “blood and broken promises.” I think it’s more likely that Ned was left in a dilemma.
He promised Lyanna to keep Jon safe, that’s the promise he paid to keep, but he also promised to crown Jon, the promise he broke, because he obviously couldn’t do both.
Howland Reed almost certainly knows and the lie about Jon's parentage also protects Howland, Ned doesn't betray his bannermen either (so long as they are loyal and don't break the law.) If Howland's wife Jyanna is really Ashara Dayne, the lie keeps the cover story of her suicide intact and she remains hidden in the Neck.
Howland is probably the only one who knows knows, and he's essentially exiled himself back to his own lands and hasn't been seen in a long time. Everyone else who knew is dead (presumably, at least). There's even a plausible 'suspect' as the mother in Ashara - who is also dead.
@ There was also Wylla as a suspect in case a certain King decided he wanted to know. Ned can't refuse a King's Question, but he did refuse to give a truthful answer,
Honestly, the tower of joy plus witnessing the savage butchery of Rhegars kids probably deeply traumatized Ned. He probably saw those poor kids and Elia in his mind whenever telling Cat about Jon (if ever) was in his mind. Lyanna on her death bed to protect Jon, can you imagine what something like that does to someone? Ned truly is a man of honor to keep his word despite how easyll he couldve dumped Jon somewhere on his way home North or sent Jon away to appease Cat
Yea he could’ve easily pawned him off on Howland Reed but Ned would never do that ofc
@FirstOfTheMagi howland was probably the only person Ned could Trust Jon with. He'd at the very least give him a similar life to what Ned gave him while protecting the secret
Ned made a promise to his sister on her deathbed that in one form or another required his absolute silence.
Eddard Stark is the type of man who would keep a promise to his dog.
I think that the worst things that Cat ever did were done out of fear for the safety of her children, and she too saw how dangerous Robert could be. She did not hesitate to see a terrible omen in the dire wolf killed by a stag. Had she known that keeping Jon in Winterfell might put the Starks at odds with Robert, I do not believe she would have seen him with kinder eyes.
This is a very good insight
My thinking on why Ned hates his memories of the Tower of Joy is that it's not only about Liana's death, or even the battle with her guardians, including Arthur Dane. I think that we've all almost completely forgotten that a noble does not travel, or even hide, fully alone. Who was tending to Liana during labor? Who was bringing and distributing food and drink? Who was dealing with something as mundane as trash removal or cleaning? These people, innocent peasants, or perhaps lower stationed nobles as well, had to have been there at the Tower of Joy in order to keep things functioning while Liana was hiding there. That's a lot of people who would have known at least part of the secret, and lots of liabilities to Ned keeping Jon safe.
The tragedy eating at Ned isn't only the cost of his honor for not telling anyone, it's what he had done to make sure his promise was realistic to keep. All those servants and all those workers at the Tower were also killed and buried under the rubble, not just the members of the King's Guard who were there. Ned had killed innocents himself to protect the secret of Jon's parentage, and it ate at his heart for the rest of his life.
Not being a book reader, I always wondered what happened to Liana's attendants.
I can't imagine Ned having to "get rid of' all witnesses but you're right to keep the secret he couldn't just let Liana's attendants just go home.
The thought of it sickens me. Ned having PTSD over the Tower of Joy makes sense.
Lyanna*
It does say "they" when talking about discovering Ned in the Tower, so it was definitely more than just Ned and Howland
He didn’t have them killed Jon’s wetnurse was supposed to be a servant from house Dayne there is a boy there named after Ned that tells one of the stark kids I don’t remember which one about it like it’s common knowledge there. There is also a different story in the Vale they think Jons mother was a daughter of a ferryman. Each region has there own story they seem to see as common knowledge of who Jons mother is. The books cause alot of doubt he is Targaryen as well it would undercut the whole theme of what Jon Aryan was looking into and the extreme importance of unique characteristics in bloodlines.
@@Pap602 "They" might have included Ashara Dayne; the servants might have been sent there by her. Interesting tiny side note in a huge story.
She wouldn’t have been able to keep it a secret .. I think ned knows this..
Emotion guides cats actions more often then not..
her letting the king slayer go for the girls is a prime example
That's been my interpretation as well. I don't think he generally mistrusted Cat, but he both felt he couldn't 100% trust her with this extremely dangerous information, and he didn't want to drag her into a potentially very dangerous situation should the secret be revealed.
I think it's one step deeper - it's not a secret he could ask her to keep. He's the one who swore an oath to secrecy. You can be oathsworn to another person's secret, but you can't pass your own oath to someone else.
It's not even about risk - it simply isn't an option in keeping with Ned's principles.
The walls have ears in ASOIAF.
Women, amiriiiiiiite
@@brian177this! And I’ll add that even if his wife keeps the secret; Ned can’t be sure someone else won’t gleam the truth from her behaviour. Presumably she would have accepted Jon more if she’d known the truth
Robert: Firstly, I've been following your channel for a long while. You cover some of my favorite work, and you do it with the professionalism of... well, a professor. Secondly, it's rather silly but, you've got a very soothing voice. I could listen to you exposit for hours (and I have) and I find your ability to tell stories very enthralling, yet calming.
Thank you for what you do. The smooth and natural flow of your videos might make it "seem" as though you are just casually and effortlessly sowing these little seeds of insight, contemplation and critical thinking. But I do know you put so very much hard work into everything you do. I greatly appreciate it, and always look forward to new IDG content.
Me too. I got to meet him in 2019!!! Con of Thrones. It was awesome! He is a great guy. I used to make videos and he would promote my channel. I'd always study how he does his videos, but I can never be as good as him❤️
Cat was too hotheaded to trust. In GOT Ned asked her to keep her cool with the lannisters while they gathered evidence, and then she immediately abducted Tyrion first chance she had.
She also freed Jamie, costing them the Karstarks.
This ! She’s extremely reactionary
Tragic, wonderful and flawless. Outstanding work, Robert. As always. Thank you.
Ned telling Kat, would have made her a party to treason, had Robert ever found out. So to keep her safe, he kept that secret to himself.
That's a really good point; It never occurred to me.
I only thought about it from the perspective of protecting Jon and the people that would have known about anything at the Tower of Joy that survived.
I wondered about that since i first saw the series, such a sweet and loving lady would surely honor the memory of Neds beloved sister.
Then i read the book and i couldnt help but imagining patting Ned on the back for this smart decision.
Would love to see similar content related to the Witcher BOOKS
Even after 13 years of no new content from ASOIAF, this channel still manages to make great content. Hopefully we're not scraping the bottom of the barrel. ❤
Cat is as much of a shark in the game of thrones as much as anyone else in this setting. Not to mention the lady of the house treating a bastard with anything other than contempt would most likely drag unnecessary attention.
Yeah, I think she’d have used his identity as a bargaining chip when war broke out.
Shed tell her sister in the need "to get off her chest" and little finger would know immediately@@bwweaver78
Beautifully done.
He probably never told her because he was afraid that she would do exactly what Sansa did when she found out Jons parentage. Smart move by Ned for keeping quiet.
Wow. Ned really went through it over the years after the war. I didn't really deep it enough how much he lost and the position he was put into afterwards having to protect Jon by taking him in as a bastard. Imagine him watching Jon get treated badly by HIS own wife and mocked around the casyle for being a bastard all while knowing Jon is the rightful king of Westeros and that if the King, his best friend Robert finds out he'll probably want to kill the boy. That's some serious mental fortitude and dedication.
Wow, i was listening the audiobook a hour ago, and this was exactly my first questioning 😮
Was rewatching S1E1 with my fiancé last night and we had the same question, timing!
Just want to say you guys are so so good at this kind of video, really a cut above.
Cat would only have to make one slip up. Especially if she told Lyssa, who would immediately tell Littlefinger.
I’ve often thought about this, but man the consequences of that secret getting out would have been drastic. Assuming Jon is Rhaegar son, let’s imagine that he gets the idea that he actually wants to pursue his birthright. Well his adoptive brothers wouldn’t have let him face that trial alone, and the second Robert got wind Ned would’ve been forced to protect his family. Even if Jon decided to do nothing with the information(hard to believe he would have chosen the wall), many would have flocked to his side just to oppose the current power and Robert would have been forced to deal with the potential threat. I think Ned decided it was safer for everyone to just keep the secret, at least until Jon had given up all rights and taken Black. I think Ned knew that Cat couldn’t have been trusted to keep that secret without reacting in some way, and even if she could, why put that unnecessary burden on her. He probably felt it was better for her to hate him and keep her distance.
Agreed.
Ned promised to tell John the truth as soon as he returned from Kings Landing which never happened.
By then John would have taken the black and he would have had another Targaryen (his great great uncle), who gave up the crown to guide him regarding duty to the Wall.
The real reason: George Martin needs it to be a secret to structure Jon's arc.
In world? Ned knows that Cat would always favor her own children. If they were ever in danger she could use this knowledge.
Also you can never trust someone 100% to keep a secret. If this secret leaks it's going to spread like wildfire. Whoever is in power would want to deal with Jon.
You would think that a man could trust his own wife. But as Robert says, Ned had only just met Cat. Also consider the marriages of Jon Arryn, Doran Martell and Robert Baratheon - their wives poisoned them, left them and tried to get them killed while cheating on them. You can't always trust someone just because they married you.
@@dromankass8655 When he returned from the tower of joy, he still hardly knew Cat. After a few years, he might have been able to trust her with that secret, but she openly disliked Jon, so what's the point
Had anyone even known a woman to keep a secret?
The 'Direwolf pack' theme holds true for most of the Starks. They never betray the family and the idea of, "the burdens we bear" in pursuit of this and upholding the family ideals, integrity and bonds is very strong. This could be challenged when Rob has to give the execution to the branch family members of the Karstarks, but; this was more out of honour and laws. But digressing, Ned would hold that secret to death, because; he knew that if anyone else found out it would endanger his family and realm.
Lyanna: 'Tell no one'
*Years later as Ned's ghost appears to Arya*
Arya: 'Thanks for telling me but I don't think that's what she meant'
How can you not love Ned man. He was fully commited to keeping his promise and protecting John no matter what.
I feel like all of those reasons are valid. They are what you would have to do to follow through.
This also brings to mind the nudging John towards the Watch and the wall, perhaps he knew who else was really at the wall? While also adding an extra layer of protection from Robert if he ever did discover who/what John was.
Just a thought that crossed my mind.
Never thought I'd ever have to do this, but at 2:49 you talk about Ned's older brother Brandon, while showing a picture of Fergus Leathem, credited as Young Rodrick Cassel (same whiskers!).
I'm pretty sure that picture of Ashara Dayne is actually Alexandra Daddario, too ;)
Based on his promise. He could tell Jaquen Hagar
Lyanna just wanted him to take care of Jon. Ned realized the need for secrecy on his own.
Well done...like always. TY 😊
I believe that Benjin knew. I think Ben's and Jon's convo at the winterfell feast hints at this. I always subscribed to the idea that the promise Lyana asked Ned to keep was, please help him gain his throne. His birth right. Please Ned.
And I think that's why Ned thinks back about promises, broken promises, promises not kept. The guilt he has from not keeping the promise haunts him. He chose to keep Jon safe, and to protect him, to not plunge the realm into another civil war against his friend Robert, over keeping that promise to his dieing sister and he feels dishonorable about it.
Just how I read it though!
It honestly lines up a lot better than her simply telling him to keep him safe.
Ned Stark’s promise was the most important promise in the whole of Westeros and saved the entire world. If Ned told Cat then Jon never would have gone to the wall as would have been given a warm reception at winterfell to want to stay with his family and not leave, Cat wouldn’t of told Jon after Ned’s death because they still needed the alliance of the Berathons, and his identity was still crucial to remain secret. So Robb would still be crowned king of the north, and Jon like the rest of the Starks would have died at the red wedding. So with Jon dying there, the wildlings would kill the nights watch and get past the wall, which would of stopped the wildlings and the north houses coming together as one, also with that everyone but the wildlings would be oblivious to the army of the dead, the wildlings would end up in a fight till the death with the kingdom of Westeros and would eventually be killed off, and the knowledge of the army of the dead would die with them, or a few that revealed the knowledge wouldn’t have been taken seriously, and been received as wildlings lies and wet nurse tales, all while death literally marches towards them. Eventually the dead would make it past the wall and kill everyone and the living would know to late to form any type of defence, research on how to kill them, or have the dumb luck to find out dragon glass or vaylaryn Steele can kill a white walker and fire to kill the dead soldiers, while the army gains more soldiers after every slaughter. So thanks to Ned’s promise, Jon was where he needed to be at the time Westeros needed a saviour against the White Walkers, and that was at the wall thinking he was a bastard and nothing more, while fulfilling his destiny to unite the living against the army of the dead.
I like this thought. Westeros could've been changed completely.
It'd be an oddly specific promise in my opinion, that I have trouble seeing being asked by lyanna in that moment. Obviously she'd ask him to keep her son safe, even maybe specify making sure Robert doesn't find our but telling him no one should learn about seems to working backwards from a conclusion to me.
I think he feared she'd play the Game of Thrones, not because she'd wants to but because she'd feel they're already on the board for even harbouring Jon and they have only the choice of trying to win.
He must realise himself that he's playing a risky game himself, coming back with a child after seeking his sister in Dorne, that no one links those two things together. It's only his reputation that's holding people back from this conclusion.
I would assume she would make him promise to: "Keep him safe, tell noone, promise me Ned." Or just keep him safe and Ned would just not talk about it. We will see when George finishes his book. Any day now George.
I can't say that this was the best decision, but it was 100% in character with Ned and how he lived.
I always wondered why Ned never told Kat the truth, Deep Geeks explanation offers the best explanation I've heard so far.
I've always assumed that, "Promise me, Ned." was a direct imploring to keep Jon's identity secret, not just to keep the boy safe and raise him.
Guess I should have waited til the end of the video
I wish Ned got a chance to talk to Jon , and as he promised while going on the kingsroad, told Jon about his mother. It might have been great to see them talk about Lyanna and Jon knowing that he's not a bastard afterall.
Cat was so worried about Jon or Jon’s children challenging Robb for Winterfell one day Jon would never have been safe if she knew. Say in another timeline, Robert lives, the WOTFK never happens, Jon is given lands in The Gift as Ned once contemplated, but Ned passes away from some other cause. The minute a few Northern lords got frustrated with Robb and went looking for Jon to create a Daemon Blackfyre situation she would’ve snitched about Jon’s Targaeryen claim. Maybe Robert would’ve spared him out of love for Ned and Lyanna, but definitely not a chance I’d take. Also, once Joffrey took the throne, can you imagine the pressure on Jon to press his claim if the Northerners ever found out one of their own was actually the rightful king? More war. I do believe Benjen knew the truth, though. He either helped Lyanna and Rhaegar run off, or went to the wall knowing Jon would likely have to follow him there one day.
Cat Stoneheart can still learn the truth. That'd be wild.
I think the better question is why Cat never guessed that there was something more to the story, especially after getting to know him over a decade
Love your style and videos!
Excellent as always ❤
Another fantastic video!
The promise to Lyanna was simply to keep Jon safe, and Robert was Jon's biggest threat. Robert had proven he'd go out of his way to kill Targaryens, be they innocent children or not. And as you pointed out, until he got to know Cat, he didn't know whether he could trust her with Jon's true identity, and by the time he knows he can trust her, it's too late because she has shown nothing but contempt and disdain for Jon. If Ned told her and all of a sudden she began treating Jon more kindly, it would raise questions, risking people digging into it and telling Robert. I don't think the promise to Lyanna was as complex as "Keep his identity secret," because circumstances could change where Jon's safety wouldn't be at risk if people knew who he was. The broken promise to Lyanna was that he couldn't guarantee Jon's safety. To protect the boy from Robert, Ned had to send Jon to one of the most dangerous groups in the Seven Kingdoms and far outside of Ned's protection. He essentially was trading in one threat for another.
I’d love a deep dive on illuvatar, creation, and anything sillmarlion related in general.
100% She would've told her Sister. Then Little Finger would've known.
The secret was so close to reaching its end when Jon left for the wall, that’s why Ned says just as they part ways, “Next time we see each other, we’ll talk about your mother.” Because by then being a nights watchman would protect him from king Robert, and then the secret could be revealed finally. That’s what makes the story even more tragic.
It may be that Ned thought she wouldn't believe him as well as not wanting to burden her with secret.
I wish Ned had told Cat but of course it would've increased the risk of the secret getting out. Obviously at first Ned didn't know Cat well enough to trust her with it. And by the time he did, it would've been suspicious if she suddenly started being nicer to Jon. Also, I think there's a degree of Ned telling himself the lie over and over until it becomes his reality. Once he starts referring to Jon as his nephew to Cat, it becomes much easier to slip up to someone else.
I think it’s as simple as if you want to keep a secret that important don’t tell anybody, also Kat might have told someone so why even risk it at all, once again if less people know there’s less risk it’s just that simple
Yeah, if he tells her, then why wouldn't she tell someone else?
Before watching my guesses would be:
-a secret has exponential chance to be uncovered when more people know it.
-the lie is that Jon is Ned's bastard and Kat needs to act the part. Having her response be genuine is easier. She isn't burdened with the very dangerous secret.
- even when talking amongst themselves, servants are never far in a lord's castle. A master of whisperers would obviously have some of those servants in his pocket.
I know a large percentage of ASOIAF fans lean toward the excitement of magic and dragons of the Targaryens, but Ned has been and always will be my favorite character in this world.
Haven’t watched the vid yet, but many times in the book Cat gives others info she shouldn’t or doesn’t do things Ned asks her to do that lead to Neds death. She does the Same with Rob.
She lets Jamie Lannister go.
Shes a great POV character because she thinks she knows more than she does.
Ned knew he couldn’t trust her, he only relied on her when he had no other choice.
I had to live clothed in a protective lie for a period of time in my life. While I wasn't as absolutely protective of the lie as Ned was, there were many people I trusted whom I did not tell, so that they wouldn't have to lie.
A reread of "A Game of Thrones" (the first novel) reveals the anxiety that Ned had about Robert's visit to Winterfell. Was Robert there for John? It must have been a question in the back of Ned's mind...especially when Robert's first thing in Winterfell was to drag Ned down to the Crypts and Lyanna's tomb. He HAD to keep Jon's parentage an absolute secret...Robert was was trying to kill every last Targaryen...including Danny.
I do wish Ned told Jon himself, to make him think before he joined the Night’s Watch. But also wonder how Ned would have treated Jon if Lyanna never asked Ned to promise her anything?
I am still convinced that there was a baby swap at hand, After Tower of Joy, Ned went to Starfall (which is not on the way to north). Rheagar and Lyanna gave birth to Targ looking baby (Danny), and taking Targ to North would not be easy to hide from Robert, or any northern house. So he left Danny in Starfall (she remembers lemons, sun and bright colors which are not in Bravos) and took John who is Brandon and Ashara's son north. Both John and Danny are Stark blood, so Ned kept them both safe any way he could. He kept his promise to Lyanna.
I don’t think he can have promised specifically never to tell anyone. He says he’ll tell Jon about his mother when they next meet (ie after he’s joined the watch and is no longer a claimant to the iron throne), so the promise was much more likely to be to keep Jon safe.
This seems entirely in character for Ned when you consider it was to protect his sister’s son. He would give up even his honor for family
Outside of Ned and Howland Reed. Benjen and of course Bloodraven are only other 2 who know about Jon's parentage
I feel that certain members of House Dayne also know. After the Tower of Joy, Ned went straight to Starfall. Robert has argued before that House Dayne (and likely Doran Martell) were in this up to their eyes. They knew Rhaegar was at the Tower and that Lyana was with him.
Then Ned and Howland (and perhaps even Arthur Dayne) all turn up at Starfall with a new-born baby needing milk. It's quite likely that Ashara Dayne was also at the Tower, and came back with them to Starfall. So they all had to do some serious plotting to get their stories straight and agree how they were going to cover this all up:
Jon would be Ned's bastard, and he would bear the shame of this. But Jon would be safe.
Ashara, friend and lady-in-waiting of Rhaegar's now dead first wife, and marked for death by the new regime, would be declare to have killed herself. But actually travelled to live in secret in the Neck with Howland, and would be safe.
Arthur Dayne - perhaps he did die at the Tower. Yet I can't see him loosing a fight, nor House Dayne being so welcoming had Ned and Howland actually killed him. So Howland stopped the fight some other way, and Arthur returned with them to Starfall (bring his own da*m sword back). But if he lived, where he is now I cannot suggest.
I think Master Aemond might have known from his talking with Rhaegar
He didn’t know if he could trust his wife but went to Kings Landing and trusted everyone untrustworthy..
This video reminded me of that amazing fanart by Plague Cattle of Lady Stoneheart crowning a resurrected Jon Snow King in the North.
He knew that if she was ever embarrassed by other people she would try to protect her honor not knowing how dangerous it might be. Look at the damage her sister caused because of her jealousy of Catelyn.
In Gurps terms, which GRRM used to make his characters, Ned has Honesty but not Truthfulness. He can lie but will not break laws. Being the one that passes down laws in his own land this rarely comes to light.
Ned also has taken at least one Vow which is why he focuses on "Promise me".
Until the story comes up with a reason and he buys off these disadvantages they will remain with him. If Jon's parentage became public knowledge through some other means he might be able to break the Vow and tell what he knows, or if he doesn't buy it off he would remain fast to the deception no matter what despite what everyone already knows.
I doubt that Lyanna's dying wish was that no one ever find out about the perfectly legitimate parentage of her son. I think it's much more likely that her wish, and Eddard's promise to her, was to keep the boy safe, and possibly to raise him himself. In the aftermath of the war, the only way that could happen is if no one knew the truth -- Robert would have had him killed, seeing Lyanna's marriage to Prince Rheagar as a betrayal (whether or not Lyanna ever returned his love), and the Martels would have seen Rheagar's setting aside of Elia as a betrayal and shaming worth killing over.
I don't remember if it's in the book, but in the show, Ned tells Jon that "Next time we meet" he would tell him about his mother. Once Jon Snow is a sworn brother of the Night's Watch, he is no danger to Robert, and it is less risky. Jon would be advised to keep his real identity a secret, but even if it got out there was less of a chance someone would try to kill him at the Wall. But if Ned "promised" to never tell, what was he planning to say to Jon?
That promise seems more like a curse in retrospect.
"Promise me, Ned." Lyanna could have just told him to promise not to tell a soul. Ned is nothing but literal when it comes to his honor.
She would have have said something because she would think it was keeping her kids safe, while actually putting them in more danger because she doesn't understand the way the world really works. She captured Tryion when she shouldn't. I have no doubt she would have offered Jon up for the life of any of her children. She doesn't realize she would have damned her own family for doing it.
I agree, it was to protect everyone. If someone found out, his family would be spared.
It is my theory that Caitlin Stark resurrects Jon Snow in the final book by passing on the last kiss of R'hllor that resurrected her after the Red Wedding. This would be an ironic yet fitting way to tie her animosity to Jon since she once harbored murderous thoughts about him. (Of course, Lady Stoneheart is not in the TV series)
I really love seeing discussion about Ned's PTSD. It's such an interesting and heartbreaking part of his character.
To add to the answer, Robert Baratheon wasn't just his friend at that point, he was his king. And lying to the king is dangerous business. Depending on the king's mood, it could be considered treason even. By telling Cat the secret, he would have asked her to shoulder all the dangers that come with it, perhaps even make her a traitor in Robert's eyes as well. Ned wouldn't do that.
How many times even just in normal life has someone been told to keep a secret, thought to themselves “Oh but I can tell X, they won’t tell anyone”, and then before you know it it’s common knowledge
I think in the age of the internet, smart phones, etc, we sometimes forget that in an environment without that kind of access to information the best way to hide or obfuscate the truth of something like R+L=J would simply be to drastically limit the amount of people who knew the truth, never discuss it with anyone who didn't already know (and even then, do it in a very limited fashion) and not write anything down for anyone to find. Anything that pops up from someone the outside of that small circle (likely just Ned, Howland, Benjen and a few folks at Starfall) could be easily dismissed as a baseless rumor - so long as its origin could never be plausibly tied back to Ned, himself. The easiest way to keep up the deception would be for Jon and the other Stark kids to grow up assuming the cover story was the truth. That goes for Cat too, honestly. The more people who believed it, the more hidden it was. Ned's plan to keep Jon's parentage secret was actually genius in that he played on his own reputation as someone who always acted honorably while admitting and living with a dishonorable thing. He did it because he knew Robert wouldn't actually care about Ned being unfaithful - he might even find it endearing given his own stance on carousing with the ladies - and Robert was THE primary threat to Jon. But no one, even Robert and Jon Arryn, thought Ned being able to lie that he fathered a bastard. In fact, they likely believed him incapable of that kind of self-tarnishing deception. They all assumed that an honorable man such as Ned could have a moment of weakness that his guilt would eventually force him to disclose, but never execute a decades long deception of his family, friends and vassals. I suspect that could one reason Ned never told Cat the truth... there was no guarantee Cat would have reacted favorably. She may have been upset about Ned having been unfaithful once, right after they met and married and when he was thousands of miles away in a war he may never return from. But could he guarantee that she would simply gloss over an 18-year deception that would likely make her feel guilty for how she treated Jon all those years? No, there's no way to tell how someone would react to their husband perpetrating and living a lie, no matter how justified the lie may have been. Given that Ned and Cat had developed a loving marriage in spite of the 'original sin', so disclosing the truth was a risk Ned wasn't willing to take in the event it eroded the trust the two of them had built over the years.
Ned did promise to “talk about your mother” when Jon and he next met, as Jon rode north to Castle Black.
Perhaps Ned thought it’d be safe to tell only Jon himself when Jon enjoyed “The Black’s” protection?
Beautiful, tragic Ned 😢
There is one man who probably at least suspected who Jon's true parentage was, Howland Reed. He was at the Tower of Joy and survived to see Ned emerge with a newborn baby. He was close to the Stark children and was present at the Tourney of Harrenhall. He too had seen Raygar's shine to Lyanna and possibly even what happened when the Prince found the Knight of the Laughing Tree, aka Lyanna. But Howland didn't use this knowledge to barter favor with the new King Robert. Instead, he kept silent and probably implicitly in order for Ned's help in protecting someone else on Robert's hit list, Ashara Dane.
Howland is a true friend and ally
idg once said something like “ned doesn’t do things out of honor, he does it out of love, love for family”
bring the playlist back!!!!!
So if Ned lived and Arya still somehow went to Bravos he could tell her
This would mean that Ned never told Howland Reed either. But I think Howland would've known that Lyanna was the mother, and then based on Ned's secrecy, he probably connected the dots to figure out that Rhaegar was the father.
This isn't even a thing to wonder about tho.. Howland Reed was there at the tower. The official story is that Rhaegar kidnapped and raped Lyanna. Nothing to even connect, obviously for Howland Reed they are the only 2 parents he would even consider.
The only thing that Reed may potentially be wrong about (although I find it very unlikely) is that he might still believe it was rape and not love.
Well, if you read the book you’d know Cat wasn’t the sharpest tool in the shed.
Coler of Voice, pacing, Script, Cut --> 10 out of 10 !!!
The biggest plot hole in asoiaf is that anyone could believe that NED STARK would cheat on his wife. That's another type of broken promise.
Yes, and Jon wouldn’t look like him raising even more questions about his parents.
It's because it makes it better for the reader to sympathize with Jon to have such a cold "step mom".
Because she would have snitched the minute she found out. She hates Jon and turns into gollum whenever he's mentioned, "No, no we hateses Jon, we hates him forever."
If he tells Catlyn she’s treats him well and people are far more likely to ask why is this high lady treating a ‘bastard’ as well as all her natural born children. Cat’s anger was cover for Jon. Robert would’ve killed him, or at least tried to, if he found out. Of course, Ned would’ve called his banners and went to civil war with Robert in the attempt.
Ned didn't tell her because he knew there were people around her (like Petyr & Lysa) that were not good secret keepers. He knew he could never trust Petyr no matter how much Cat vouched for him bc, he could never fully trust a man that was and is still in love with his wife. And Lysa was always unpredictable and unstable. He was right not to trust her with Lyanna's secret.
Everyone draws ashara as such a beauty.. 🤩
I think a large part of it could simply be Ned's honour at play again. He promised his sister he would protect Jon's identity - so he did, even if it would have been convenient to tell Catelyn.
Jon is Lyanna's son in the show. We don't know about who he will turn out to be in the books. He might very well be Ned and Ashara's son.
Love you love your voice thank you for the videos
He could've told her that Jon wasn't his son, but couldn't tell her whose he was to protect him.
To paraphrase Pitch Meeting, because the story needed to happen.
Exactly and very unrealistic, a man who loves and trusts his wife will eventually let the truth slip.
If GRRM prioritized making a story HAPPEN over making a story make SENSE, we'd have the rest of the books by now. He'd just bang them out. The whole delay is that he needs it all to fit together, and then gets harder the longer the series goes on and the more complex it gets