This is, without a doubt, the best scene in the movie. When I first saw this, after Lincoln said “that's fairness“, I said to myself the same thing Lincoln ended up saying out loud, and we both said “That’s justice.“ at exactly the same time. It was at that moment I realized that I had seen something special and it’s one of only a handful of movies I have seen 3 times in the theaters, proudly own and now consider one of my all-time favorites. He's the greatest President in American history.
Treat yourself to Doris Kearns Goodwin's "Team of Rivals" - it's extremely well written and well notated - it's easily one of my favorite biographical books and what's awesome is that the movie "Lincoln" shows about 60-90 pages of a 800+ page book with 100+ pages of references and quotes. This talk or something very close to it actually happens - as do some of the debates he has with characters like Thaddeus Stevens.
I love how the engineer stands up as Lincoln left the room, from the sheer respect he had, and for the greatness he just personally witnessed. It was a profound moment for him, and we was awestruck. One of Lincoln’s biggest strengths was his ability to relate to anyone; he was a man of the People, but also, almost ironically, apart from the People, at the same time. He was immensely intelligent, had a remarkable memory, was a savvy politician, and a shrewd negotiator. And he was truly great. General William Tecumseh Sherman remarked from the last meeting he had with Lincoln aboard the River Queen, General Grant’s headquarters, that, “Of all the men I ever met, he seemed to possess more of the elements of greatness, combined with goodness, than any other.” Lincoln often left a profound mark on those who had the privilege of meeting him. By all accounts, he was affable, humble, and loved to tell anecdotes. If I could go back in time, and talk with one historical figure, he would definitely be on my short list.
The way Adam Driver subtly but clearly widens his eyes, ever so slightly at 2:49, as he realizes the connection that Lincoln just made … there truly are no small parts, only small actors.
I like how Adam Driver's character asks Lincoln if he wants him to transmit the first message but not the second. Maybe it was just to advance the scene but I'd like to think that he recognized Lincoln's apprehension and gave one last chance to consider it, if only because he believed that seeking peace at the cost of not passing the amendment was not right.
@@thalesn if you watch a whole movie you would know that Spielberg didn’t deify Lincoln. Tons of dirty backroom deals were made to reach his goal: 13th Amendment. As to quote from Thaddeus Stevens played by Tommy Lee Jones, “The greatest measure of the century, passed by corruption, aided and abetted by the purest man in America.” Lincoln knew how to be pragmatic and played politics well.
One takeaway for me is that truths are self evident, meaning that no people have a monopoly on truth. And neither is it locked away in a book on a shelf or a pundit’s, Imam’s, rabbi’s, judge’s or priest’s robes. Any wretch stranded on a desert island willing to strain enough to look, or ask enough questions can arrive at the truth. Just like geometry, it’s there, in the same sunlit beams that reach any and all of us…
Mathematical truth is the purest truth. It can't fall to anyone's ideology. Yet, such an emotional point of reasoning equality seems to be (or seemed to have been, rather). But actually this man was able to connect abolition to sound and undeniable, self-evident reality. I can nerd out on this forever. So awesome. I find myself loving this film more and more.
Yes. I believe it's a recording of the watch he took to Ford's theatre the night he was shot?? Not sure.....I know it was a big deal to get an actual watch of Lincoln's!!! Love it! ❣️
Years ago, I heard an old timer remark that grade schoolers in our state (Wisconsin, land of Spooner, La Follette, Proxmire, Nelson) were required to memorize Lincoln's Gettysburg Address. How far have we've fallen?
I finally figured out why this scenes works so well, not just writing-wise, but characterization-wise (regarding Lincoln), and also, in a very heavy historically thematic way as well. Up until this moment, Lincoln had been agonizing over the best, most politically safe way to both ensure the passage of the 13th Amendment and brokering peace talks with the Confederate commissioners. We saw him pace back and forth, disturb poor Hay and Nicolay from their sleep (lol), and now he's on the verge of taking a precarious plunge without much a plan,...until he starts talking to Beckwith (Driver) and his fellow clerk (the engineer). He let his defenses down, he relaxed, and he engaged in an introspective, friendly, genuine, and intelligent conversation about destiny, learning, Euclid, and equality. And once he started to muse about equality, balance, fairness, and justice, he finally got the epiphany he was looking for. Once "balance" and "fairness" entered his mind, he found the way he had been seeking; by mediating the situation with balance and fairness, i.e. by not bringing the commissioners all the way to Washington, but balancing it out by conveying them only to Hampton Roads. And by musing about equality as the origin, it led to balance and fairness, and that led to his final musing...justice (the ultimate goal of the 13th Amendment and the war itself). Equality, balance, and fairness ultimately lead to justice. And how did this happen? By playing to his most natural and most endearing characteristic; his genuine relations with the people, which I think underscores a timeless historical theme about how a leader's power derives from his relationship and dialogue with the people he leads. In short, a leader's greatest strength is the people, and a people's greatest strength is in finding a man (like Lincoln), who naturally recognizes that, to lead them.
'The guy from Black Klansman?' It's Adam Driver, he's the main antagonist in Star Wars, you know, the movie franchise most people on the planet except for uncontacted tribes have heard of?
Lincoln "Things which are equal to the same things are equal to each other. That's a rule of mathematical reasoning and its true because it works - has done and always will do." Trump "I'm the most least racist person in this room"
To be fair, Trump's drama is a rare/new entity in modern politics, mainly fueled by citizens. If voters had acted in the manner as during Lincoln's Presidency, today's politics would be different.
Still gonna have to give that one to General Washington, wouldn't have even been a presidency without him. But I can respect Lincoln as likely the second best, although I will always hold it against him how he overstepped the Constitution.
@@somethingtojenga you are a mere animal. Why do you think you're better or distinct from other animals? If it's human intelligence, then also the stratas of human intelligence must separate humans into different quality of human. That's what you'd be implying.
@@rockclimbinghacks9222 Like it or not, we emerged from natural selection able to do what other animals can't. Other animals might have the pieces of language, the pieces of logic, the pieces of symbolic association, our closest relatives might have almost all of that, but they haven't created societies of learning about what's beyond them, have they? So our society is for humans. That being said, we've discovered that we're 99.9% alike, even when things go wrong (or right) and mutations occur. So we have these things to go by--the intelligence to be able to at least live in and communicate within a society to some degree, and the overwhelming similarity of our DNA. With that, it should be easy to reason that fairness and justice would dictate giving people the same treatment at birth. But to say that because a human brain has a developmental disability or otherwise is limited, means that it is equal to an animal brain, is like saying that breaking your spine is the same as being an invertebrate.
@@somethingtojenga I'm not talking about disabled people, I say all people are animals. The groups I'm talking about are subspecies within humans. Different subspecies have different cognitive abilities on average, just like some dog breeds are smarter than others. Some human subspecies are less genetically suited to industrial society, so they will never perform as well on average as other subspecies in the society. Evolution did not stop at the neck. Read the Bell Curve.
This is, without a doubt, the best scene in the movie. When I first saw this, after Lincoln said “that's fairness“, I said to myself the same thing Lincoln ended up saying out loud, and we both said “That’s justice.“ at exactly the same time.
It was at that moment I realized that I had seen something special and it’s one of only a handful of movies I have seen 3 times in the theaters, proudly own and now consider one of my all-time favorites. He's the greatest President in American history.
Treat yourself to Doris Kearns Goodwin's "Team of Rivals" - it's extremely well written and well notated - it's easily one of my favorite biographical books and what's awesome is that the movie "Lincoln" shows about 60-90 pages of a 800+ page book with 100+ pages of references and quotes. This talk or something very close to it actually happens - as do some of the debates he has with characters like Thaddeus Stevens.
@@proadmin1 And books on Lincoln's letters.
I love how the engineer stands up as Lincoln left the room, from the sheer respect he had, and for the greatness he just personally witnessed. It was a profound moment for him, and we was awestruck. One of Lincoln’s biggest strengths was his ability to relate to anyone; he was a man of the People, but also, almost ironically, apart from the People, at the same time. He was immensely intelligent, had a remarkable memory, was a savvy politician, and a shrewd negotiator. And he was truly great. General William Tecumseh Sherman remarked from the last meeting he had with Lincoln aboard the River Queen, General Grant’s headquarters, that, “Of all the men I ever met, he seemed to possess more of the elements of greatness, combined with goodness, than any other.” Lincoln often left a profound mark on those who had the privilege of meeting him. By all accounts, he was affable, humble, and loved to tell anecdotes. If I could go back in time, and talk with one historical figure, he would definitely be on my short list.
Learning much about him lately, in this nation dealing with “critical race theory” how can anyone neglect what he had to say?
@@jordanmcbride9215 Well, if they think they're somehow greater than he was...
Who else would be on your list of historical people from the past to talk to?
Favorite scene. Lincoln was self educated, and an avid reader. Championship wrestler too - but that’s for another movie.
Someone really needs to make a Lincoln prequel/origin story film.
Who would've thought Rust Cohle was a Lincoln fan
@@rvc1_ 😂brilliant
Vampire Slayer. Come on. That tops all of it. They actually made a documentary about it too!
The champion wrestler part was covered in Abraham Lincoln: Vampire Hunter.
God, the hand on the shoulders and the standing-up as he leves the room breaks me everytime. One of the best Americans and men who have ever lived.
“Do you think we choose to be born? Or are we fitted to the times we are born into?”
That’s some deep shit that really gets you thinking
The way Adam Driver subtly but clearly widens his eyes, ever so slightly at 2:49, as he realizes the connection that Lincoln just made … there truly are no small parts, only small actors.
I like how Adam Driver's character asks Lincoln if he wants him to transmit the first message but not the second. Maybe it was just to advance the scene but I'd like to think that he recognized Lincoln's apprehension and gave one last chance to consider it, if only because he believed that seeking peace at the cost of not passing the amendment was not right.
Think that’s spot on. He sensed wasn’t the right thing to do...
Spielberg’s most underrated film.
I'd say quite the opposite: it's one of his most overrated films. It's well made from a technical standpoint, but it treats Lincoln like a saint.
@@thalesn He's talking about the appreciation and ratings for the movie being underrated, not the historical accuracy.
@@thalesn Compared to the men of his time and even men of today he is a saint.
@@thalesn if you watch a whole movie you would know that Spielberg didn’t deify Lincoln. Tons of dirty backroom deals were made to reach his goal: 13th Amendment. As to quote from Thaddeus Stevens played by Tommy Lee Jones, “The greatest measure of the century, passed by corruption, aided and abetted by the purest man in America.” Lincoln knew how to be pragmatic and played politics well.
@@thalesnfound the confederate sympathizer
One takeaway for me is that truths are self evident, meaning that no people have a monopoly on truth. And neither is it locked away in a book on a shelf or a pundit’s, Imam’s, rabbi’s, judge’s or priest’s robes. Any wretch stranded on a desert island willing to strain enough to look, or ask enough questions can arrive at the truth. Just like geometry, it’s there, in the same sunlit beams that reach any and all of us…
That’s a nice sentiment, and very well put.
@@Penrodyn thanks for the encouragement, I try, good on u as well
Mathematical truth is the purest truth. It can't fall to anyone's ideology. Yet, such an emotional point of reasoning equality seems to be (or seemed to have been, rather). But actually this man was able to connect abolition to sound and undeniable, self-evident reality. I can nerd out on this forever. So awesome. I find myself loving this film more and more.
Adam Driver learned Morse code just for this scene but they ended up over-dubbing it.
Lol
Very cool piece of trivia about this movie. The watch we hear ticking in several scenes is the sound of Lincoln's actual watch.
Yes. I believe it's a recording of the watch he took to Ford's theatre the night he was shot?? Not sure.....I know it was a big deal to get an actual watch of Lincoln's!!! Love it! ❣️
One of the most remarkable human beings who ever lived
Years ago, I heard an old timer remark that grade schoolers in our state (Wisconsin, land of Spooner, La Follette, Proxmire, Nelson) were required to memorize Lincoln's Gettysburg Address. How far have we've fallen?
Love this movie
Lincoln would have made a great Vulcan!
I finally figured out why this scenes works so well, not just writing-wise, but characterization-wise (regarding Lincoln), and also, in a very heavy historically thematic way as well.
Up until this moment, Lincoln had been agonizing over the best, most politically safe way to both ensure the passage of the 13th Amendment and brokering peace talks with the Confederate commissioners. We saw him pace back and forth, disturb poor Hay and Nicolay from their sleep (lol), and now he's on the verge of taking a precarious plunge without much a plan,...until he starts talking to Beckwith (Driver) and his fellow clerk (the engineer). He let his defenses down, he relaxed, and he engaged in an introspective, friendly, genuine, and intelligent conversation about destiny, learning, Euclid, and equality. And once he started to muse about equality, balance, fairness, and justice, he finally got the epiphany he was looking for. Once "balance" and "fairness" entered his mind, he found the way he had been seeking; by mediating the situation with balance and fairness, i.e. by not bringing the commissioners all the way to Washington, but balancing it out by conveying them only to Hampton Roads. And by musing about equality as the origin, it led to balance and fairness, and that led to his final musing...justice (the ultimate goal of the 13th Amendment and the war itself). Equality, balance, and fairness ultimately lead to justice. And how did this happen? By playing to his most natural and most endearing characteristic; his genuine relations with the people, which I think underscores a timeless historical theme about how a leader's power derives from his relationship and dialogue with the people he leads. In short, a leader's greatest strength is the people, and a people's greatest strength is in finding a man (like Lincoln), who naturally recognizes that, to lead them.
I just realized the telegraph operator is the guy from Black Klansman
'The guy from Black Klansman?' It's Adam Driver, he's the main antagonist in Star Wars, you know, the movie franchise most people on the planet except for uncontacted tribes have heard of?
Lol really dude that's the Adam Driver movie you picked from? You got Star Wars, not to mention all those season's of HBO's Girl's.
THAT's what you know him from? Lol bro you trolling
@@somethingtojenga aka the Star Wars I've never seen? That one? The only thing I've ever seen him in was BK
Lincoln "Things which are equal to the same things are equal to each other. That's a rule of mathematical reasoning and its true because it works - has done and always will do."
Trump "I'm the most least racist person in this room"
"If you don't know whether to vote for me or Trump, then you ain't' black" - Joe Biden
To be fair, Trump's drama is a rare/new entity in modern politics, mainly fueled by citizens. If voters had acted in the manner as during Lincoln's Presidency, today's politics would be different.
Wish he was my President
Lincoln was smart Lawyer he put a provision in that southern agreement to stay at Hampton Roads and wait until further notice
Kylo Ren learnes form the True Sith Lord. :)
Daniel "The Chameleon" Day-Lewis.
By the way, Driver would be a great Young Lincoln before he gets too old.
Praise God, I love this movie. Lincoln saved not only the USA but the world.
The GOAT of American Presidents!!!!!
Still gonna have to give that one to General Washington, wouldn't have even been a presidency without him. But I can respect Lincoln as likely the second best, although I will always hold it against him how he overstepped the Constitution.
@@jackl4614 Fair enough and agree to disagree.
No two animals are equal, therefore no two groups of animals are equal.
Nothing like a bit of pseudo-anthropological bunk, eh?
Equality in society is not a purely Darwinian concept, or else we WOULD be mere animals. Maybe you're merely that.
@@somethingtojenga you are a mere animal. Why do you think you're better or distinct from other animals? If it's human intelligence, then also the stratas of human intelligence must separate humans into different quality of human. That's what you'd be implying.
@@rockclimbinghacks9222 Like it or not, we emerged from natural selection able to do what other animals can't. Other animals might have the pieces of language, the pieces of logic, the pieces of symbolic association, our closest relatives might have almost all of that, but they haven't created societies of learning about what's beyond them, have they? So our society is for humans. That being said, we've discovered that we're 99.9% alike, even when things go wrong (or right) and mutations occur. So we have these things to go by--the intelligence to be able to at least live in and communicate within a society to some degree, and the overwhelming similarity of our DNA. With that, it should be easy to reason that fairness and justice would dictate giving people the same treatment at birth. But to say that because a human brain has a developmental disability or otherwise is limited, means that it is equal to an animal brain, is like saying that breaking your spine is the same as being an invertebrate.
@@somethingtojenga I'm not talking about disabled people, I say all people are animals. The groups I'm talking about are subspecies within humans. Different subspecies have different cognitive abilities on average, just like some dog breeds are smarter than others. Some human subspecies are less genetically suited to industrial society, so they will never perform as well on average as other subspecies in the society. Evolution did not stop at the neck. Read the Bell Curve.
Trump watching this: "Trump watching this: "Wot izz he tawwwking abowttt?"