WHY didn't he LISTEN?? | Korean Air Cargo 8509
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- Опубліковано 24 кві 2024
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December 22nd, 1999
Flying an airliner is a complex task. It requires highly trained pilots working together to get hundreds of tonnes of metal and people safely into the air. The margin for error is small, and when mistakes do happen, they can be catastrophic.
When things go well, this complexity looks like clockwork - each of the components interlinking seamlessly, and ticking away the flight.
The story of Korean Air flight 8509 is a dark and complex one. Its cogs and wheels are psychological, technological, and even cultural. When the clockwork of this flight burst open just seconds after takeoff on December 22nd 1999, it revealed deep rooted problems in the aviation industry - problems which would need to be reckoned with, fast.
This is the story of Korean air flight 8509. - Розваги
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Nicely researched and presented and one of the most intermingled and complex ones.
what sim do you use for these videos? is it X-Plane11 or something?
Do you really need an ad break every 3 minutes? Because that makes this unwatchable.
@@aramchek ublock origin? UA-cam controls the ads, not the creator.
keep the old intro. that song with the green dot animation is iconic
The fact that the first officer never spoke up during the entire emergency is truly sad
When his instruments were showing imminent doom, at what point does survival instinct kick in? He said nothing as was reported on the video. Seems the engineer was the only one with a grasp of the situation.
@@Jabarri74the moment he said "oy, bank".
As someone in the military, the First Officer resigning himself to just being a passive bystander and not actually growing a pair to stand up to his superior is what caused this. Sometimes your superiors are out of touch asshats who have no idea what they're talking about, and if they're allowed to follow through with their plan, it'll inevitably lead to very bad consequences for his or her team. It's up to the subordinates to think critically, recognize the situation, grow a pair, speak up, and call out their superior to prevent avoidable tragedies and unnecessary complications. This whole culture thing in Korea and Korean military is utter nonsense.
@@davidcerrato8797 It was and is still prevalent in some airlines.
Afterall they are Koreans. We tend to think of South Koreans and North Koreans as opposites. And it may be true in some aspects but culturally they may be closer than different.
Just wanted to thank you for all you do. My grandfather passed a few weeks ago, and the last couple of times I went to visit, we would watch your videos together. He’s always had an interest in engineering, whether it be cars, ships, or planes, but neither of us realized the other was interested in accident investigations. Your work will always be dear to my heart and remind me of the time I got to spend with him.
That's very touching, thanks for sharing
Cool story bro
@@bobgomez9481 you say that like you don’t believe it, lmfao
@@Sassy-Sam honestly wasn’t even bothered by it, more confused than anything. But I’m so sorry for your loss. I don’t know if you feel similarly but I feel that it’s really beautiful to have had a relationship special enough to miss them as much as we do. Thank you for sharing 🩷
@@bella9282I totally agree. My brother passed away in 2021 aged 40, and my very good friend died last year. He was 86 but it was totally unexpected as he was in good health until the day he went. I was his carer. So I lost my friend, job and home, all at once. I'm sorry for your loss, my condolences.
As someone who only knows what happens in the cockpit from UA-cam, i cannot comprehend this story. Captain had thousands of hours of flight, aware of the instrument failure from the previous flight, warnings both audible and visual, his inputs didnt match the instruments and FE mentioned bank, yet he didn't react in any way?! This is crazy
different crew on the two flights, but yeah still, crazy to dismiss an ADI compare warning with no cross check of the ADI…
As someone who.. the fog. The fog is coming.
The first crew knew the ANU failed and could have written it down more clearly.
suicide obviously....
Arrogance and egos cost lives!
so sad how arrogance, pride, and selfishness was the reason that lives were lost... this is so prevalent in korean culture specifically in the older generations and this reminds me of the sewol ferry tragedy which took more than 300 lives with a majority of them being children.
great video as always, mr. green dot!! :)
With decades, maybe hundreds of years of Korean culture ingrained in each Korean, time would have never predicted that flying a big metal machine would test their culture when inside that cockpit. The sad but best way is to learn, and at times learn from tragedies unfortunately.
@@1398gono, it's specifically said in the video that the airline had this culture problem, but never took action to fix it until the crash happened.
Innocent lives were lost and it's the airline's fault to have ignored the problem for so long.
@@mohamedh.guelleh630 the problem stems from Korean culture and the airline's failure to install an aeronautical culture stronger than the Korean one within its ranks. Not that it's an easy feat.
@@IStMl Well said.
Yes: the korean "culture"! If we can call it like that...
I work for an aircraft maintenance company, and they used part of your videos in a saftey presentation I had to attend. I recognized the tone and everything as a regular watcher. Cheers
It's crazy to think that the captain believed that the plane wasn't turning as he was requesting it to, yet he didn't initiate any sort of non-normal checklist to diagnose the problem.
It still kind of amazes me that machines as huge and heavy as modern commercial aircraft ever managed to get off the ground at all!
Me too!
Science is so cool! But same it seems so magical that Those huge machines can even lift up just by going fast
Physics are the same for 747 and for small paper plane. Basically 747 is a paper plane, but made from aluminium and shape of wings and stabilizers can be controlled (by movable surfaces) so it can turn...
I've travelled from the UK to New Zealand & back 14 times now, always by Airbus A380. I'm amazed at every take off!
I fly regularly and every time is like the first time 😅 Pure amazement
No crashes in 25 years since this crash is one really impressive record.
Still wouldn't fly on Korean Air, just like Air France.
@@stephenholland5930air France is really the worst
I only fly Air Canada, Lufthansa, and Etihad. ONLY.
Hold up. The first crew had written in the tech log that if the captains ADI was switched to ATT, everything would be alright. He essentially told the maintenance crew exactly what to do in the tech log!
Yeah so why the fck did the engineer think it was a problem with the ADI
Ikr. Like common sense, where is it
Well the guy did find a supposedly corroded pin in there, so he must have taken that + successful test as proof positive that the problem had been fixed.
@@Andrew-dy1xi sounds like an intelligence problem… what was written (if accurately shown in the video) and the problem he solved for are mutually exclusive. People are blaming the culture but it was this incompetent engineer who caused the crisis
@@greenockscatman confirmation bias is not a justification
I was at home 3 miles away from the impact of this crash and saw and heard the windows rattle from the blast.
Glad i never saw samantha smiths crash in auburn,maine.i was on duty then
It's a good day when GreenDot uploads 🎉
You can say that again💯🔥
Frrrr
Not for the people he's uploading a video about
@@Drakeblood97🫵🤡
@@chizzling2854 yea
Love your video's, by far my favorite air disaster channel. No excessive use of stock images, clear explaination, focus on the accident, just perfect.
Thank you, glad you're enjoying them 🙏
same for me! green dot. i commented my opinion on this accident. there was a few alternative ways which the captain could have understood whether his ADI was working or not. for example the number of Gs exerted on his body during the dive.
@@GreenDotAviation Content and all are good. My only dislike is the playing of 'background music' while you are narrating. You are not the only YT host doing this and I ask the others as well to not do it. Muting and enabling the c/c is not really good, because then I have to read the screen and the text, especially in these types of videos where you are showing us stuff, can block the images. Also, the auto-gen'd cc are not perfect. For example, in another aviation channel, the host said 'fore' but the c/c wrote 'four.' Sure, I could determine what was said in that case, but it is not always possible. So, pretty please with sugar on top, do not play any music while you are narrating. Thx.
As soon as there is a power imbalance in the cockpit, safety dies. Hierarchies are one thing, but a clear perception of tasks and mutual respect are what I understand by professionalism, whether on an airplane or anywhere else.
That maintenance engineer should not have needed to look up that code, the written note explained what was happening well enough.
It would have been sensible to carry a copy of the FIM on board each aircraft.
@@stephenholland5930Or maybe even make a quick phone call? Unbelievable.
@@stephenholland5930 My first thought exactly, why isn't an FIM onboard each plane?
The incoming captain should have just left the switch in the ALT position for the next captain
The next captain should of paid attention to his backup instruments. Hes was turning all the way left and his main instrument was not reacting to his inputs. Instead of getting a hold of himself to get back to his senses, he continued to turn left.
A sad story. But BIG kudos to the Koreans for owning up to their mistake and changing the culture within their airline. We should not take that for granted. Once they knew what was broke they fixed it. If only BOEING would think the same way :(
Boeing's way of owning their failures is by jettisoning whistle blowers from this realm to the next.
@@jw2442 what are you talking about? The whistleblowers died of suicide/natural causes. Why would you assume that they would pay assassins six figure payments under the table to go kill people who would threaten their corporate empire?
It seems to me, the mechanic should have been able to properly diagnose what was defective from what the flight engineer told him. He said the ADI worked fine once he switched the source. That would tell any reasonable person that the source is the problem.
Yea, its like assuming that your car's overheating is a result of a faulty sensor and not the cooling system itself. Very dumb actually.
They are mechanics, and not engineers, for a reason. This precise reason to be precise. 🤐
Exactly! I was about to write the exact same thing.
@kevinbarry71, the mechanic's fault is not the biggest issue here. it was the shit head pilot.
@@mortgageapprovals8933 no kidding.
Between you and Mentour Pilot i can't decide who's my favourite. I LOVE both of your content. Can't wait for the next one!
They both are great green dot provides incredible story writing paired with technical info, mentour tells a little more about the story generally, both are incredible in their regards
@@adityabadukale6353 agreed! I drop everything when these 2 uploads lol
74 is good too.
I recently discovered Chloe Howie who is also descriptive and thorough on accident investigation. Excellent research and presentation.
I enjoy green dot aviation more as it binge us with the animation, i wish Mentour Pilot add more animation in their episode it helps to understand better!
One of the reasons why it is such a joy to watch your videos is somewhat of an odd but reasonable explanation. You explain what might be the most devastating and even beyond shocking accidents in such a calm and logical manner, even the music and lighting of your videos are calming. Many people have a really hard time watching the 9/11 videos, even the mention of it causes shock-- I think how you approach accidents psychologically has done so much good. Thank you so much for your videos and for preserving our wellbeing,--truly. It’s almost as if at the end of each video you give everyone involved including the viewers of your videos peace from such tragedy. That is absolutely an art form of presentation and preparation to a much greater level than just “posting” a video.
GreenDot and MentourPilot are my go-tos for accident reports specifically because of those qualities. I don't want dramatisations, I want interesting explanations and lessons I can take into aspects of my own life, not the over-dramatised, horror-for-horror's-sake videos that so many channels put out ❤
As a commercial pilot, I can't begin to describe the mix of enjoyment and terror your videos evoke! They're incredibly insightful yet concise. Every time a new video appears in my feed, it sparks a surge of excitement. Thank you for your outstanding content! Please guys subscribe to give this guy what he deserves!
Much appreciated!
Your channel is hands down the best aviation channel, you take the viewer through the emotions and situation, it almost feels as though one is in the cockpit.
That's exactly what I'm going for, thanks!
Him and Mentour Pilot are the OGs of aviation channels.
I worked for a Asiana ground handling company for 9 long months. The culture there was amazing to watch. Aircraft captains were gods and nobody questioned them. Even the American born Koreans working there were scared to death of the Korean born management who ran the terminal. More…..as a licensed aircraft mechanic, I believe the Korean Air maintenance guy didn’t do his job as the flight engineers write up practically gave him the problem and the fix if he had troubleshot the problem correctly. Even the captain knew what the problem was and what the fix was. To have to go to a code book to figure out the problem was part of the problem!
Was this before or after their flight 214 crash at SFO? Because I’ve heard company culture and possibly aspects of Korean culture which are contrary to CRM as understood in “Western” countries’ airlines were to blame for that, but as I’m not Korean I want to be careful not to overgeneralize about matters I barely know about.
@@alexroselle I worked for the ground handling company that handled Asiana before the SFO crash. It’s my understanding that the “you don’t question the Captain” culture was a big part of the problem in that crash.
Best aviation channel by far. God bless.
There is no room for ignorance inside a cockpit, especially inside a time frame of 56 seconds....
This channel rivals air crash investigations, and it’s AWESOME
There's a super cool teardown and demonstration of a 737 internal navigation gyro on here. Definitely check that out. it spins at like 37,000 RPMs and it takes like 20 minutes to stop spinning. Amazing precision engineering.
i started watching about 5ish weeks ago and i just about have finished every video.. you’re videos are awesome and i appreciate the effort. I can imagine editing and gathering all the info for these vids can be pretty time consuming. anyways.. looks like i just got home with dinner at the perfect time.
Your graphic design team deserves a raise. The animation is so detailed
been watching the channel for a while now, i'm absolutely impressed to be able to witness the gradual improvement in production quality over the past year...keep it up!
This is a very accessible aviation channel. The focus on psychology sets it apart from other channels.
New Green Dot drop! 😁
Still amazed that the ground engineer could not check the fault code elsewhere, e.g. phoning his maintenance base in Korea or locally in Stanstead.
Also why wasn't there the usual aural warning "Bank Angle"?
Maybe the most impressive part about the aftermath of this tragic crash is that it made KA start implementing and following the international aviation standards much more closely. As a result they are now among the safest airlines to fly with in the world.
Always excited when Green Dot uploads I get so immersed in the stories
This is an excellent presentation of the issue with the ADI and the INU. One of the best tech explanations I've ever seen!
i can't stop hearing the f word 😭😭 12:57
You know it's going to be a great day when Green Dot Aviation uploads a new video!
Missed Ya!
Love these videos. Keep up the amazing work!!!
The highlight of this channel is how it simplifies complex aviation components for easy comprehension. Gold standard contents.
I absolutely love these videos ❤ the telling of these stories is so comprehensive and well written. The animations are so good at supplementing the story and offering a visual for the story we are hearing. Such high quality stuff 👌
Absolutely love these informative videos that are extremely well done. 👍
The production quality, amazing. Keep it up!
Amazing that the first officer or the flight engineer didn’t do more to let the captain know he was screwing up bad?! Yeah, I understand the cultural thing. I’ve been to Korea and many other Asian countries. But when your life is in jeopardy, you make your position clear to whomever is responsible for it. All they had to do was inform the captain to look at the OTHER TWO working instruments?! Ridiculous and sad .
The first officer was psychologically traumatized by being brow-beaten repeatedly by the arrogant Captain. He was literally psychologically immobilized
@@jasmine0354 then he shouldn’t be flying a plane.
@@Wargasm54 And he literally wasn't.
First officer fault
@@jasmine0354 True. Everyone here who’s victim blaming the FO has never been in a position where they are constantly belittled and bullied by someone that they are supposed to look up to and work with. May that captain rot in hell forever.
Videos keep getting better ☺️. You keep the storyline interesting. I appreciate that you don’t dumb it down too much, but also make it easy to follow. Perfect videos when I’m at the gym on the stair stepper.
Bro's video quality has increased 10 fold compared to his previous vids. I LOVE ITTTT
That's what we're going for! Glad you're liking it :))
Broooo your old intro with music drop was so much better, iconic even. Gib it back!
Thank you green dot for your very informative and superbly articulated content.
Former Korean Air driver here. Following the suit of many accidents involving FO feeling too much of power distance between him/herself with the CA, their flight ops manual specifically states that the pilot monitoring (in reality they meant FO not flying) can forcibly take over the flight controls from the CA after pointing out an unstable factor twice. It is an incredibly rare and almost unthinkable clause you could imagine finding it in the crew manual allowing a pilot to actively fight over the controls in-flight (considering manuals from well-trained CRM countries like the United States) but their history of crashing perfectly operational jets over CRM/Communication breakdown caused them to come up with such first-aid bandage over their historical, systemic problem. Korean's FOs had this old joke telling other FO colleagues that when the CA tries to pull "I got it" crap over an unstabilized approach, we would sneak upon to their throttle quadrant and force the TOGA power on them. It was all shits and gigles on the surface back then but thinking about it with a historical perspective, it still sends a chill down the spine realizing the clash between the western CRM concept and historical Asian hierarchy is still on-going to this date.
Bravo, another high quality production!
This tragedy is a stark warning to all types of work places where there is a known chain of command. All too often the power imbalance leads to one or more of the team deciding to no longer contribute even vital information to the person in charge.
SO EXCITED to see a new episode!
Superb production as always! Thank you!
Your work is excellent. Well researched and your voice is easy on the ear.
Omg I can’t sleep then Mr Green Dot uploads! What a touch 😂
Just finished work, need a nap but definitely saved to my watch later list
Hey baby yeah here we goooo! Thank you for everything you do. We love the content. Clearly!
When competent people become extremely stubborn and not open for input or feedback, we have this outcome.
Yay another video by Gda❤ I love the video ❤
Your first *new* video since Ive discovered your channel and I'm stoked! flying a 363 in my flight sim right now as this plays ha
His videos always get better these days,Keep up the good work!
That's the plan, cheers!
New GDA all the way love it when this man uploads
I'm surprised that the Korean engineer didn't see the logic that if the ADI works on feed 2, but not on feed 1, it's probably not the ADI that is at fault. You don't need a reference manual or codes to figure that out. I'm nothing to do with the aircraft industry but if I were fixing something, I always used to draw out a logic diagram by which I could work out which faults were most likely to produce the symptoms before I started. It could save a lot of wasted effort.
great vids. production fundamentals are appreciated!
A truly horrible captain
Thank you for the upload :)
A first class production as ever. This one never fails to shock
Love your videos! I recently heard about Pan Am Flight 103 and would love to hear that story from you. As always, great work!
So sad with the hierarchy culture back then that the first officer would rather lose his life than to speak up or take control
Well done , there is a lot of work behind the scenes , graphic and post editing ecc
I laughed when you say captain gave out to FO for not responding ATC, that’s very Irish way to say it ahah not everyone would understand it
In Ireland, does "gave out" = a bollocking? 😂🤔
@@user-kz4ke8mg4r yeah ahah giving out is something a supervisor does when something is not right or for example the wife complaining the husband didn’t do all the stuff he was told to do at home .
English is not my first language, I lived 4 years in Dublin then moved to Australia , Aussies couldn’t understand me when I used this term the first time, I thought was just normal English then I discovered was only a Irish slang ahah
I was thinking exactly the same thing. I was raised by Irish Gran and this is EXACTLY how she would speak. It’s natural to me, but I’ve only just realised what it must sound like to other people.
I was thinking, “wow the push back tugs must be very powerful!” Before he said the push back tugs could push no further because it lacked the power to 😂
My cousin is a pilot for United after a USAF career. We don't have much contact but I think he would love this channel.
I've seen about 6 or so other channels of this type, and gotta say - Green Dot slays them all. A lot of facts and information. Most binge-able YT channel I've seen. Bravo!
Agree, green dot and mentour pilot are very good channels that are very like fact based in their videos :)
I do Think green dot can be abit easier to follow sometimes just fyi there is alot of technical speak in mentour pilots videos (but he is also a pilot who trains people to become pilots so it makes sense)
@@Moon_x_sun yeah I watch that one too, it's #2 in my book, but it does not flow nearly as well as Green Dot IMO.
Will say that I am not a fan of those with too many actor recreations of events. Much more interested in the facts/details than any 'dramatizations' per se.
Keep up the good content i really like this stories
That's why I always speak up when I see somethings wrong, regardless of who gets mad or not. My life is more important than your ego.
I haven't even began watching, and the video was still loading, automatic like from me as always, lol. You are one of the few channels I care to give a like to, much less even waiting to discern if I should like.
You know it's a good day when Green Dot Aviation posts a new video
The only channel where I like before the video starts.
I love this channel so much, very interesting video.
It's fascinating to see a person so fixated on a problem that he believes his instruments when they say he's level, while his hands on the stick make it absolutely impossible that it is level.
Very respectful analysis and conclusion of a tragic event.
I literally screamed when I saw a new video from you. So excited to watch!
How could the clue that the ADI worked fine when in the alternate mode, not be a clue to the technician that the ADI wasn't faulty?
Just like auto mechanics, many of them are not very sharp.
Another first-rate, professionally created episode GDA. Thank you. 👍👍👍
There are times when I click too hard on a new video. This was one of those times.
Great work as usual, Green Dot! 😎👍
Seriously well done as always. 👍
Thank you 😀
The wait is over!!! Yay!!! Thank 🙇 @greendotaviation these make my day. Best channel ever ❤
videos getting better and better
This made me understand better about piloting a plane than the actual story. Thx for information 😂
Love this channel 😊
i love the new logo/channel intro, its seemless and slick. very noice
It's bland, how can you like it?
@@TheScholar1its ok, subtlety is lost on many people
@LucaEnzo the original one had a darker feel to it. Different tastes I guess and I respect you for standing by it!
Yessss a new video
I wonder if there's more to this story than meets the eye? It's one thing for the captain to act to a, shall we say, less than up to date CRM procedure, but how can you not notice that the ADI is not working once you've given some aileron inputs for more than a few seconds? Also, banking that steep should be felt clearly in the cockpit, and should feel pretty different to turbulence, so I really wonder.
I wonder, was the captain preoccupied somehow already on the ground? Maybe the reason he behaved towards his crew the way he did was ultimately the same had him fail to correctly judge the situation once airborne?
Thanks for the video !
Great video green dot. Always entertaining
Haven't watched the video yet, but I know it's going to be another corker. Wondering if you'd consider doing a video on Air New Zealand flight 901 (the Mount Erebus disaster)? I think that could be a really interesting one.
that’s my week made, green dot uploaded
I've been waiting for this excellent channel to cover this accident. I'm in Essex so was well aware of the situation on the very evening that it happened. I've been to the crash site since and there are still the odd scattered piece of Sony electronics, memory chips, and other electronics fragments that surface amongst the undergrowth in Hatfield Forest
I can’t stop watching these videos
I like to listen while i eat or do chores. I imagine the situation and its entertaining to me while i do work.
Great videos as always thanks man