“No liberal or conservative gets it all right. It’s more zen to be open minded.” Great video! And I’m glad I’m not the only one who’s getting a bit weary of the capture of western Buddhist centers with progressive politics. Not that I want teachers to be reactionary right wingers, either, but I like this idea of meditation centers as places where ppl of all political views can practice together under an all-encompassing blanket of compassion and understanding. Much metta ❤
David Reynolds aka Paññobhāsa and his Navakavada Buddhism is very conservative leaning in applying four noble truths, the noble eight-old path, and the five precepts. Number 3 of the five precepts he is outspoken about buddhists obeying. He does have a UA-cam channel.
I totally support your notion of not bringing politics into the zendo. For me the most important reason is that bringing politics into a zendo is like introducing all-you-can-eat cake buffets into a gym: It’s completely undermining its purpose. Because politics is about the need to form opinions about good and bad, right and wrong. We have to pick a side. We have to make a decision and then vote for one candidate or another. And this process alone tends to influence our view of ourselves, it builds up our sense of identity, increases our attachment to certain viewpoints and strengthens the ego, while often amplifying our basic fears, our triggers, our trauma, etc. And zen is simply just the opposite of this. It’s the opposite of picking and choosing. „There is nothing I dislike“ says Linji. We’re supposed to practice to hold and to encompass everything. We’re supposed to sit with everything. The moment you introduce politics of whatever party or ideology into your zendo, you undermine the whole idea of the practice. You’re kinda cheating because you’re excluding stuff that you don’t feel comfortable with. The practice inevitably must become inauthentic because you’re preaching something that you’re obviously not trying to practice yourself. It's like telling people to take care of their health and then hook them up on a sugar IV.
I disagree. Politics isn’t about moral judgements unless you subscribe to a moral-judgementy political ideology. Politics simply put is about doing things that affect the world. Anything you do that affects the world is inherently political. Being “apolitical” is itself a political position in favor of the status quo.
I don't think anyone can seriously conclude that the modern politics of the Democratic Party are consistent with the traditional cultures of India, China, Korea, Japan, or any other traditional culture. In fact, Buddhist have been on the front line of opposing communism. Buddhism is about liberty, mostly by "Letting go". Politics is about exploitation, and is the modern embodiment of Mara. If someone is going to put on their "D" cap (or R cap) and bully people, they need to meditate more. The Zendo should be a safe place for all truth seekers. The first step towards civilization is peaceful coexistence.
The US Zen community is pretty much taken over by the far left. Major Zen centers are doing things like election letter writing campaigns, obsessing over diversity and identity and excommunicating anyone who doesn't go along. It all seems pretty much antithetical to the goals of Zen practice to me. I'm not a conservative, but all this has pushed me out of American Zen and into Chan and Taoism instead. So far these communities are mostly free from political entrism.
You said you're not happy with the discussion and we're never happy with these discussions.. well I am very happy with this my friend! I totally relate to your perspective on these topics and greatly appreciate you putting this out there, be well much metta!!!
Thanks. I don't see myself as a conservative, just as a not-so-progressive libertarian (i.e. "leave me be, and please progressives, keep an eye on when you take it all too far, maybe learning how economics actually work in the meantime"), and yet I feel a bit estranged in the Sangha. Aside from the fact that feeling estranged and rejected is one of my objects of attachment, being an ex-gifted kid who burned out & dropped out and all
I think this is one of the problems with Mahayana Buddhism in general. You all vow to forego enlightenment in order to bring every other being to enlightenment before you. But Westerners hear this and often talk about it being their responsibility to save all beings and end their suffering. So they see the problems in the world and then decide its their obligation to end racial problems, climate change, poverty and all other problems. It really seems to me like people forgot about about the four noble truths and got more excited about saving the world.
Very good points! I attended a Soto Zen Buddhist Associate on retreat and was force fed extreme left ideals over and over and over again. From the key note to the board members. It was appalling. To assume everyone thinks the same way??? Really? This is divisive and not what the Buddha taught. The Buddha taught a path to realization, not so much what ti think but how to see. Thank you for this video.
More wisdom from my favorite idiot ;) Thank you! I'm really a dirty commie and queer and whathaveyou but in my sangha there are conservative catholics and whatnot. That's okay. I don't have to be friends with them. But then again we have no teacher, so no one can tell us what to think. Lucky us :) Greetings from Berlin!
I find the “whathaveyou” part interesting. As though all those traits naturally go together and we can just fill in the rest. I mean, I’m sure I could just fill in the rest and be mostly correct, just based on your short comment even, but it would probably be more interesting if I couldn’t do that. Also, why not be friends with people who think differently to you? Isn’t that the whole point of diversity?
@@superdeluxesmell I don't know if those traits naturally go together, but they happen to go together in me. I'm all for being friends with diverse people, but I know from at least one person in my sangha that thinks that I shouldn't have the same rights as straight people. I don't discuss this issue with that person anymore, and I'm surely not their friend. That happens. I was thinking about that person (and maybe another) while writing this comment, and the "whathaveyou" is just the things I imagine this person finds weird about me (besides being queer and finding communism an idea worth exploring). So I also have to fill in the rest, in a manner of speaking.
@@superdeluxesmellIf thinking differently means being homophobic,being racist, being ableist and not accepting diversity then I am not obligated to make friends with that.If somebody wants to walk into a coffee shop,a restaurant or whatever type of space which is open to the public then that's perfectly fine but that doesn't mean that this stuff from other people is welcomed into my personal life.
I've played devil's advocate for bringing politics into the zendo before: Practice is all-encompassing and therefore nothing should be excluded from its purview. By the same token, people should recognize that this practice is quite clear about working to deconstruct identity, and very few things in modern society seem to be held more tightly by the ego than political views.
I saw an interview with the Chinese translator Bill Porter (Red Pine) where he says something like, "Well, Buddhism is kind of against all that stuff - against politics, against right & left, maybe even against society". Shunryu Suzuki(?) told the story about how a monk was trying to sleep, but there was all this squabbling & angry voices outside his window. So he went outside to take a look, & it was the squash in the garden. So he showed them like this, "Put your hands on top of your head. Do you feel something? Just feel along that vine until you come to something. What is it? That's right, it's another squash." So the squash, realizing they were all the same being, stopped their arguing & everyone had a good sleep.
Great video, thank you!! People on the Left and people on the Right are just people who all want the same thing: safety, resources and connection. They just use different strategies to achieve those means. And yes, it's complicated, layered and multi-faceted. Dialogue and trying to understand "the other" helps find common ground, and maybe non-partisan solutions. Here is a quote by S. Batchelor that explains how clinging to the "self" is the cause of our suffering. "The more precious it (the self) becomes to me, the more I must guard it against attack. The circumstances in which I feel at ease become ever narrower and more circumscribed" .
Look at Bohm’s On Dialogue. Some of what you’re talking about is within that text, specifically dealing with ‘hard necessities.’ Reflecting on what you quote you’re teacher as saying, Bohm’s dialogic principles may have a place in the zendo. My policy: No Politics In The Zendo.
Jack - I was rigid in my youth.” I’m in my sixties and am very much still extremely rigid. I’m caught in the delusional viewpoint, what is seen is ‘out there’ Still, hope is at hand . My dyslexic existentialist Zen teacher gave me the koan recently. “ Is there a dog”?
I do agree that the zendo should not be an overtly political space - everyone should be welcomed, it shouldn't be a place of factionalism or judgementalism, but a refuge for suffering beings. My only equivocation would be with those who express this in terms of the idea that Zen realisation and insight transcend ethics and morality (I'm not saying that's what you're saying, though), as this is dangerous territory - practice should be firmly rooted in the precepts.
I was a A part of a Group, not Zen, but when Trump was Elected there was a Politic War, the Leadership wanted to Ban Trump Supporters. The Trump Supporters Responded by wanting to take the Leadership and, at first Protect themselves but, Later ban the Hilary Supporters. Only me and a Few others, very small Minority argued that we Ban no one, and we have to Deal with one another similar to how we have to deal and make Peace with our Demons and Faults. Eventually, I just left, feeling as though our Deeper Ideas were Lost.
Your story, sadly, pretty much encapsulates the problem I was trying to get at here. Sorry you had to go through that, but I think you were probably right to leave. The forest got lost for the trees.
@@zenconfidential25 My current Zen Teacher is a Leftist, to some Extent but, I appreciate how he's not against my Anarchist "Non-Dual" Political Ideas, while not agreeing with me. He's talked and Written about Politics and I've pushed back and forth with him, but it's never been a Struggle except on my end in the Beginning. What did Surprise me was, I came to a Neither Left or Right Conclusion to Politics (and Further being against Politics itself) kinda through Zen before I met him, and he, having done Zen for like 50 years landed on one Side.
@@jamesfellows5081 I'm also sorry you had that experience. I am a philosophical anarchist too. Curious if there are any particular authors that you like.
Imagining how sanghas in the UK have had to avoid being absolutely RIVEN by BREXIT. I'm friends with people from Hebden Bridge and somehow they dance thru it. But I do often have thoughts of,, WHO OF YOU VOTED FOR THIS PIECE OF POO!!!??? bc in all liklihood several to half of them DID. Anyway! I am mostly in the orbit of SF Zen Center and I feel bad for them b/c they don't have like a lot of choice. If they want money, well, people want them to be political. Catch 22 situation. Their option would be to forget growth and go smaller but that is not how the economics of the world works just now- it's grow or go home, and in California, it's go big or go home, everything is on steroids here. I snicker and am snide at Facebook posts of so and so "sitting" at the Apple campus, and it's so dumb to me. But also, and back to SFZC programming, the new people coming in want to be politically aware and they want a Zen perspective on things like race, and sexuality, and gender. If they want young blood and able bodied free labor scrubbing floors and bringing wood and water then they have to have the touchy feely programming. But then! And then! People might expect more sociability and connection but SFZC is damn cold from a socializing poin of view (cue to a vid I just watched of yours about why are Zen monks so cold). Anyway, my two cents about 3 weeks late.
Really amazing points. You hit the nail on the head re: SFZC, I think. Thanks, I don't get that perspective a lot here. I think yes, the answer would be for them to forget growth and go smaller. God forbid they might even have to scrub some floors and bring wood and water etc.
I'm a pinko, and feel that we should welcome conservatives the way we'd want to be welcomed in a Southern Baptist church. Only positions that truly go against buddhist teachings (e.g., celebrating slavery or the holocaust) can be openly rejected. How you feel about supply-side economics does not preclude one from being a "good buddhist". I agree with everything in the video except the notion that climate change is a "political position". It's no more political than the germ theory of disease.
Sounds like a skilful way to proceed. But query: where is the line, if there is one, between a moral teaching and a political position? Was thich nhat hanh just being "political" in advocating for the Vietnam War to end? Is it divisively political to propose feeding the homeless or say, discuss carpooling to the zendo in response to climate change? Is "no politics" actually a political position? Is any moral or communal action or discussion something that should be off limits in the zendo? If not, how can it avoid being perceived as political?
My memory is of TN Hanh angering both sides in the Vietnam conflict by advocating for peace. So if you're angering both sides you may be on the right side.
REally interesting. Lked your first half of the video that you didn't like anyway. Wonder if part of the problem is talking about not bringing politics into the zendo is bringing politics into the zendo.
@@zenconfidential25 but I still think its right as a rule. I feel like I do see politics very overt in many spheres now and did sit with a zen group who translated the precepts into a version based on their left wing politics. Would be great if people didn't need the rule but seems necessary right now
Maybe it's not at all about your views on politics or any other subject, but about how tightly you hold onto them, you know? When you recognize your views as merely preferences in your limited human mind, you tend to not take them as seriously. Although it is easier said than done.
I loved your presentation. I loved your approach to the subject. I loved it so much that I "liked" and 'subscribed! But I don't think you know what "right wing" means. I am into politics hardcore, and I don't know what it means. Here are a few ideas that i believe: 1. Mitt Romney isn't right wing. 2. Fox isn't right wing. 3. Fascism isn't right wing. 4. People are getting their ideas from television and government-approved textbooks. Memorizing these things does not provide any independent insight. 5. Misguided notions of what people think are "right wing" or "left wing" have no place in a Zendo. 6. Zen Confidential appears awesome! I don't know. I could be wrong.
Interesting points, thank you! I like where you're going. You've deconstructed my idea of what right wing is. You're right. I don't think I know what that term means.
Wouldn't it be a good idea to keep politics out of Dharma talks and consider it taboo in sangha gatherings? One test of right speech is that it not be divisive. What is MORE divisive than politics? Even to do something as inoffensive as to endorse democracy and the free exchange of ideas, it seems to me, is to take a political position. A lot of governments are not democracies, and not all nations permit free speech. Mixing politics and religion has at least two outcomes that I personally do not want. Political systems being about power, there is the obvious risk of one religion gaining enough power to hamper or outlaw other religions. The more insidious threat is that bringing political matters into a religion is bound to alter that religion, to corrupt it. If you really want to step on a hornet's nest, make a video about "engaged Buddhism." I use scare quotes because it really scares me. Maybe it shouldn't, though. After all, I'm a knucklehead, and there are full-blown roshis who promote engaged Buddhism.
If there is such a thing as anti-dharma then politics is surely it. Highly conceptual. Highly rhetorical. Often hypocritical, deceitful and corrupt. Lots of thinking, talking and stirring up of emotions, attaching to an identity or position and/or defending an identity or position. Great way to bring extra dukkha into the Zendo.
Agree with your sentiments, but amazed that climate change is considered a political issue. Is the second law of thermodynamics or neuropathology a political issue? Perhaps it’s a cultural difference between Europe and US. Science and politics, like religion and politics,are best left apart.
Deep Throat? I can appreciate that one, I too have qualms about politics in the Zendo. But, I left mine, after many years of being a part of the community, I could not stay and be drown in politics. To me, the Zendo is a sacred space, one where all 'outside' drops away and the Sangha works on awareness of the Dharma/Suchness. To tie politics or outside actions to being a 'good Zen practitioner' is wrong, and I don't use that word lightly. It is very, very dangerous to use the power of religion to political actions, in the past this has not ended well for anyone. As a example, there were classes on 'Eco-Dharma'
Thanks for sharing all of that. There's a lot to process here. I think your experience is pretty common now in US sanghas, no? I'm across the drink and the vibe is different over here in Vienna.
Sometimes it’s hard to find the line. At my zen center , we are really involved in rights for gay, the trans community,black, indigenous and people of color. The big problem now is the the Republican Party has gone crazy. There doesn’t seem to be a middle ground.
For me personally it's pretty damn sad that somebody elses sexual orientation or gender identity has to be turned into a political issue in the first place that type of stuff should simply be seen as what is rather then being something to be made laws or legislation surrounding.
You know, I really feel like that's true. Or maybe the American propensity to continually indulge in bad incentive structures as a way of life, aka media making $ off of political divides, politicians making money from their status and power as statespersons, etc.
@@zenconfidential25 It's pretty simple really. My politics haven't changed much over the years. I used to be pretty firmly on the left. No one, at that time, would argue. Now I am told I am a dirty centrist or even far right (there doesn't seem to be any other kind). But again what and how I think has changed very little. The political landscape shifted.
@@zenconfidential25 hey man, whatever the karma dictates keep yourself clear and the path will always draw you in much love. I hope you’re doing well out there. Are you still in Austria or are you back in the states?
Most Buddhist liberals are conservative in the sense in they just use Buddhist ideology/practice to better-fit into the homogenic ideology of the day: neoliberalism. Ah, get rid of all that stress and guilt and never ever question the social symbolic world that has caused the pain in the first place. As Adorno writes: "The need to lend voice to suffering is a condition of all truth, for it is suffering that weighs on upon the subject. It's most subjective experience is objectively mediated." Most western buddhism is just a band aid for western capitalism. IT replicates capitalist ideology instead of being used to question our social formations. It has forgotten the true meaning of Annatman. OR the Bodhisatva vow of only personal enlightenment when all beings enlightened etc.
it's greatest trick is that it convinces people its not an ideology at all. Sadly western buddhism has been a great ally. Meanwhile: food banks, zero hours contracts, ghettos, environmental wreckage. Have you explored the Speculative Non Buddhism site? I think you'd like it. Tought going but worth in the end. "Ruins of the Buddhist Real." We need more thought, not less. More ideologies rather than "pure perception". Byung Chul Han is great on this. @@zenconfidential25
I am Australian but if I were to be able to vote I would vote for RFK Jnr. However, before knowing he was actually running I would have voted for Donald. Either one of those guys are fighting the deepstate which is a win for humanity.
Had to leave Zen due to it’s total abandonment of practice in favor of delusion and racialism. Had to goto Vajrayana for the time being. But new orders are being born around Aryan Truth.
@@zenconfidential25 yes, Aryasatya (noble truths). Aryan, “noble and educated.” The original meaning of the term and central to Dharma. Truth is only available to higher/transcendent life forms; the truths themselves are not noble. Dharma is elitist, or in the words of Melford Spiro “a Virtuoso religion.” Hierarchical, Conservative, traditional, patristic, ascetical and vigorous.
“No liberal or conservative gets it all right. It’s more zen to be open minded.”
Great video! And I’m glad I’m not the only one who’s getting a bit weary of the capture of western Buddhist centers with progressive politics. Not that I want teachers to be reactionary right wingers, either, but I like this idea of meditation centers as places where ppl of all political views can practice together under an all-encompassing blanket of compassion and understanding. Much metta ❤
How does the saying go, where there is much doubt there is much wisdom. :)
David Reynolds aka Paññobhāsa and his Navakavada Buddhism is very conservative leaning in applying four noble truths, the noble eight-old path, and the five precepts. Number 3 of the five precepts he is outspoken about buddhists obeying. He does have a UA-cam channel.
I totally support your notion of not bringing politics into the zendo. For me the most important reason is that bringing politics into a zendo is like introducing all-you-can-eat cake buffets into a gym: It’s completely undermining its purpose.
Because politics is about the need to form opinions about good and bad, right and wrong. We have to pick a side. We have to make a decision and then vote for one candidate or another. And this process alone tends to influence our view of ourselves, it builds up our sense of identity, increases our attachment to certain viewpoints and strengthens the ego, while often amplifying our basic fears, our triggers, our trauma, etc.
And zen is simply just the opposite of this. It’s the opposite of picking and choosing. „There is nothing I dislike“ says Linji.
We’re supposed to practice to hold and to encompass everything. We’re supposed to sit with everything. The moment you introduce politics of whatever party or ideology into your zendo, you undermine the whole idea of the practice. You’re kinda cheating because you’re excluding stuff that you don’t feel comfortable with. The practice inevitably must become inauthentic because you’re preaching something that you’re obviously not trying to practice yourself. It's like telling people to take care of their health and then hook them up on a sugar IV.
Thank you my friend.
I disagree. Politics isn’t about moral judgements unless you subscribe to a moral-judgementy political ideology. Politics simply put is about doing things that affect the world. Anything you do that affects the world is inherently political. Being “apolitical” is itself a political position in favor of the status quo.
I don't think anyone can seriously conclude that the modern politics of the Democratic Party are consistent with the traditional cultures of India, China, Korea, Japan, or any other traditional culture. In fact, Buddhist have been on the front line of opposing communism. Buddhism is about liberty, mostly by "Letting go". Politics is about exploitation, and is the modern embodiment of Mara. If someone is going to put on their "D" cap (or R cap) and bully people, they need to meditate more. The Zendo should be a safe place for all truth seekers. The first step towards civilization is peaceful coexistence.
A lot of great comments in the comment section. And great video, thank you for making it. :)
I'm very Buddhist & very right leaning.
I think Leftist Buddhist are just louder than conservative Buddhist.
Ah, good point. So in your group lefty Zennies are louder than righty Zennies?
The US Zen community is pretty much taken over by the far left. Major Zen centers are doing things like election letter writing campaigns, obsessing over diversity and identity and excommunicating anyone who doesn't go along. It all seems pretty much antithetical to the goals of Zen practice to me. I'm not a conservative, but all this has pushed me out of American Zen and into Chan and Taoism instead. So far these communities are mostly free from political entrism.
You said you're not happy with the discussion and we're never happy with these discussions.. well I am very happy with this my friend! I totally relate to your perspective on these topics and greatly appreciate you putting this out there, be well much metta!!!
Thank you, my friend, I appreciate that input.
Thanks. I don't see myself as a conservative, just as a not-so-progressive libertarian (i.e. "leave me be, and please progressives, keep an eye on when you take it all too far, maybe learning how economics actually work in the meantime"), and yet I feel a bit estranged in the Sangha. Aside from the fact that feeling estranged and rejected is one of my objects of attachment, being an ex-gifted kid who burned out & dropped out and all
Well said!
Nothing belongs in a zendo except nothing, and nothing else.
that about sums it up! you’re a smart person!!
What if the world is my zedo?
Couldn't have said it better myself. A much needed take on things in this currently too divided world.
Thanks my friend.
I think this is one of the problems with Mahayana Buddhism in general. You all vow to forego enlightenment in order to bring every other being to enlightenment before you. But Westerners hear this and often talk about it being their responsibility to save all beings and end their suffering. So they see the problems in the world and then decide its their obligation to end racial problems, climate change, poverty and all other problems. It really seems to me like people forgot about about the four noble truths and got more excited about saving the world.
It certainly sounds deluded to think one is consciously postponing enlightenment.
Very good points! I attended a Soto Zen Buddhist Associate on retreat and was force fed extreme left ideals over and over and over again. From the key note to the board members. It was appalling. To assume everyone thinks the same way??? Really? This is divisive and not what the Buddha taught. The Buddha taught a path to realization, not so much what ti think but how to see. Thank you for this video.
When Buddhism becomes dogma and bleeds all the way into politics, that's when the dharma is lost without even ever having been there.
@@zenconfidential25 I agree. There no longer realization of emptiness and therefor delusion that there is no interconnectedness. Thank you 🙏
More wisdom from my favorite idiot ;)
Thank you!
I'm really a dirty commie and queer and whathaveyou but in my sangha there are conservative catholics and whatnot. That's okay. I don't have to be friends with them. But then again we have no teacher, so no one can tell us what to think. Lucky us :)
Greetings from Berlin!
Greetings from Vienna!
I find the “whathaveyou” part interesting. As though all those traits naturally go together and we can just fill in the rest. I mean, I’m sure I could just fill in the rest and be mostly correct, just based on your short comment even, but it would probably be more interesting if I couldn’t do that.
Also, why not be friends with people who think differently to you? Isn’t that the whole point of diversity?
@@superdeluxesmell I don't know if those traits naturally go together, but they happen to go together in me.
I'm all for being friends with diverse people, but I know from at least one person in my sangha that thinks that I shouldn't have the same rights as straight people. I don't discuss this issue with that person anymore, and I'm surely not their friend. That happens.
I was thinking about that person (and maybe another) while writing this comment, and the "whathaveyou" is just the things I imagine this person finds weird about me (besides being queer and finding communism an idea worth exploring). So I also have to fill in the rest, in a manner of speaking.
@@superdeluxesmellIf thinking differently means being homophobic,being racist, being ableist and not accepting diversity then I am not obligated to make friends with that.If somebody wants to walk into a coffee shop,a restaurant or whatever type of space which is open to the public then that's perfectly fine but that doesn't mean that this stuff from other people is welcomed into my personal life.
I've played devil's advocate for bringing politics into the zendo before: Practice is all-encompassing and therefore nothing should be excluded from its purview.
By the same token, people should recognize that this practice is quite clear about working to deconstruct identity, and very few things in modern society seem to be held more tightly by the ego than political views.
I saw an interview with the Chinese translator Bill Porter (Red Pine) where he says something like, "Well, Buddhism is kind of against all that stuff - against politics, against right & left, maybe even against society".
Shunryu Suzuki(?) told the story about how a monk was trying to sleep, but there was all this squabbling & angry voices outside his window. So he went outside to take a look, & it was the squash in the garden. So he showed them like this, "Put your hands on top of your head. Do you feel something? Just feel along that vine until you come to something. What is it? That's right, it's another squash." So the squash, realizing they were all the same being, stopped their arguing & everyone had a good sleep.
That's a pretty profound quote by Bill Porter. Thank you. I like that squash story too, Zen masters has such a good way of putting things sometimes.
Great video, thank you!! People on the Left and people on the Right are just people who all want the same thing: safety, resources and connection. They just use different strategies to achieve those means. And yes, it's complicated, layered and multi-faceted. Dialogue and trying to understand "the other" helps find common ground, and maybe non-partisan solutions. Here is a quote by S. Batchelor that explains how clinging to the "self" is the cause of our suffering. "The more precious it (the self) becomes to me, the more I must guard it against attack. The circumstances in which I feel at ease become ever narrower and more circumscribed" .
Ahg, than you. I appreciate that!
Look at Bohm’s On Dialogue. Some of what you’re talking about is within that text, specifically dealing with ‘hard necessities.’ Reflecting on what you quote you’re teacher as saying, Bohm’s dialogic principles may have a place in the zendo. My policy: No Politics In The Zendo.
Amen my friend.
Jack - I was rigid in my youth.”
I’m in my sixties and am very much still extremely rigid. I’m caught in the delusional viewpoint, what is seen is ‘out there’
Still, hope is at hand . My dyslexic existentialist Zen teacher gave me the koan recently. “ Is there a dog”?
Is there a dog!! What's your answer?
Your insightful thoughts on this important matter are refreshing and worthy of further contemplation.
Great video, this needs to be spoken about much more in western zen x
Glad you think so!
Hegel approves this message.
I do agree that the zendo should not be an overtly political space - everyone should be welcomed, it shouldn't be a place of factionalism or judgementalism, but a refuge for suffering beings. My only equivocation would be with those who express this in terms of the idea that Zen realisation and insight transcend ethics and morality (I'm not saying that's what you're saying, though), as this is dangerous territory - practice should be firmly rooted in the precepts.
yes, I hear you. That's maybe the topic for a whole 'nother video.
Thank you!
You bet!
I was a A part of a Group, not Zen, but when Trump was Elected there was a Politic War, the Leadership wanted to Ban Trump Supporters. The Trump Supporters Responded by wanting to take the Leadership and, at first Protect themselves but, Later ban the Hilary Supporters. Only me and a Few others, very small Minority argued that we Ban no one, and we have to Deal with one another similar to how we have to deal and make Peace with our Demons and Faults. Eventually, I just left, feeling as though our Deeper Ideas were Lost.
Your story, sadly, pretty much encapsulates the problem I was trying to get at here. Sorry you had to go through that, but I think you were probably right to leave. The forest got lost for the trees.
@@zenconfidential25 My current Zen Teacher is a Leftist, to some Extent but, I appreciate how he's not against my Anarchist "Non-Dual" Political Ideas, while not agreeing with me. He's talked and Written about Politics and I've pushed back and forth with him, but it's never been a Struggle except on my end in the Beginning. What did Surprise me was, I came to a Neither Left or Right Conclusion to Politics (and Further being against Politics itself) kinda through Zen before I met him, and he, having done Zen for like 50 years landed on one Side.
@@jamesfellows5081 I'm also sorry you had that experience. I am a philosophical anarchist too. Curious if there are any particular authors that you like.
Imagining how sanghas in the UK have had to avoid being absolutely RIVEN by BREXIT. I'm friends with people from Hebden Bridge and somehow they dance thru it. But I do often have thoughts of,, WHO OF YOU VOTED FOR THIS PIECE OF POO!!!??? bc in all liklihood several to half of them DID. Anyway! I am mostly in the orbit of SF Zen Center and I feel bad for them b/c they don't have like a lot of choice. If they want money, well, people want them to be political. Catch 22 situation. Their option would be to forget growth and go smaller but that is not how the economics of the world works just now- it's grow or go home, and in California, it's go big or go home, everything is on steroids here. I snicker and am snide at Facebook posts of so and so "sitting" at the Apple campus, and it's so dumb to me. But also, and back to SFZC programming, the new people coming in want to be politically aware and they want a Zen perspective on things like race, and sexuality, and gender. If they want young blood and able bodied free labor scrubbing floors and bringing wood and water then they have to have the touchy feely programming. But then! And then! People might expect more sociability and connection but SFZC is damn cold from a socializing poin of view (cue to a vid I just watched of yours about why are Zen monks so cold). Anyway, my two cents about 3 weeks late.
Really amazing points. You hit the nail on the head re: SFZC, I think. Thanks, I don't get that perspective a lot here. I think yes, the answer would be for them to forget growth and go smaller. God forbid they might even have to scrub some floors and bring wood and water etc.
I'm a pinko, and feel that we should welcome conservatives the way we'd want to be welcomed in a Southern Baptist church. Only positions that truly go against buddhist teachings (e.g., celebrating slavery or the holocaust) can be openly rejected. How you feel about supply-side economics does not preclude one from being a "good buddhist".
I agree with everything in the video except the notion that climate change is a "political position". It's no more political than the germ theory of disease.
Climate change is definitely not a political position.
Sounds like a skilful way to proceed.
But query: where is the line, if there is one, between a moral teaching and a political position? Was thich nhat hanh just being "political" in advocating for the Vietnam War to end? Is it divisively political to propose feeding the homeless or say, discuss carpooling to the zendo in response to climate change?
Is "no politics" actually a political position?
Is any moral or communal action or discussion something that should be off limits in the zendo? If not, how can it avoid being perceived as political?
My memory is of TN Hanh angering both sides in the Vietnam conflict by advocating for peace. So if you're angering both sides you may be on the right side.
REally interesting. Lked your first half of the video that you didn't like anyway.
Wonder if part of the problem is talking about not bringing politics into the zendo is bringing politics into the zendo.
You're 100% right. No politics is 100% politics too. (Sigh)
@@zenconfidential25 but I still think its right as a rule. I feel like I do see politics very overt in many spheres now and did sit with a zen group who translated the precepts into a version based on their left wing politics. Would be great if people didn't need the rule but seems necessary right now
Maybe it's not at all about your views on politics or any other subject, but about how tightly you hold onto them, you know? When you recognize your views as merely preferences in your limited human mind, you tend to not take them as seriously. Although it is easier said than done.
It does seem like attachment is the problem, thank you.
I loved your presentation. I loved your approach to the subject. I loved it so much that I "liked" and 'subscribed!
But I don't think you know what "right wing" means. I am into politics hardcore, and I don't know what it means. Here are a few ideas that i believe:
1. Mitt Romney isn't right wing. 2. Fox isn't right wing. 3. Fascism isn't right wing. 4. People are getting their ideas from television and government-approved textbooks. Memorizing these things does not provide any independent insight. 5. Misguided notions of what people think are "right wing" or "left wing" have no place in a Zendo. 6. Zen Confidential appears awesome!
I don't know. I could be wrong.
Interesting points, thank you! I like where you're going. You've deconstructed my idea of what right wing is. You're right. I don't think I know what that term means.
and....I don't either. I mean that.@@zenconfidential25 ty ty ty
Well said.
Very good one, Jack.
thank you for saying so.
Wouldn't it be a good idea to keep politics out of Dharma talks and consider it taboo in sangha gatherings? One test of right speech is that it not be divisive. What is MORE divisive than politics? Even to do something as inoffensive as to endorse democracy and the free exchange of ideas, it seems to me, is to take a political position. A lot of governments are not democracies, and not all nations permit free speech. Mixing politics and religion has at least two outcomes that I personally do not want. Political systems being about power, there is the obvious risk of one religion gaining enough power to hamper or outlaw other religions. The more insidious threat is that bringing political matters into a religion is bound to alter that religion, to corrupt it. If you really want to step on a hornet's nest, make a video about "engaged Buddhism." I use scare quotes because it really scares me. Maybe it shouldn't, though. After all, I'm a knucklehead, and there are full-blown roshis who promote engaged Buddhism.
If there is such a thing as anti-dharma then politics is surely it. Highly conceptual. Highly rhetorical. Often hypocritical, deceitful and corrupt. Lots of thinking, talking and stirring up of emotions, attaching to an identity or position and/or defending an identity or position. Great way to bring extra dukkha into the Zendo.
Agree with your sentiments, but amazed that climate change is considered a political issue. Is the second law of thermodynamics or neuropathology a political issue? Perhaps it’s a cultural difference between Europe and US. Science and politics, like religion and politics,are best left apart.
Very good point about climate change.
Deep Throat?
I can appreciate that one, I too have qualms about politics in the Zendo. But, I left mine, after many years of being a part of the community, I could not stay and be drown in politics.
To me, the Zendo is a sacred space, one where all 'outside' drops away and the Sangha works on awareness of the Dharma/Suchness. To tie politics or outside actions to being a 'good Zen practitioner' is wrong, and I don't use that word lightly.
It is very, very dangerous to use the power of religion to political actions, in the past this has not ended well for anyone.
As a example, there were classes on 'Eco-Dharma'
Thanks for sharing all of that. There's a lot to process here. I think your experience is pretty common now in US sanghas, no? I'm across the drink and the vibe is different over here in Vienna.
Sometimes it’s hard to find the line.
At my zen center , we are really involved in rights for gay, the trans community,black, indigenous and people of color. The big problem now is the the Republican Party has gone crazy. There doesn’t seem to be a middle ground.
For me personally it's pretty damn sad that somebody elses sexual orientation or gender identity has to be turned into a political issue in the first place that type of stuff should simply be seen as what is rather then being something to be made laws or legislation surrounding.
"Buddhist left" 😊 (American) politics poisons everything.
You know, I really feel like that's true. Or maybe the American propensity to continually indulge in bad incentive structures as a way of life, aka media making $ off of political divides, politicians making money from their status and power as statespersons, etc.
🙏🙏💡
Far right extremist = Regular guy from 15 years ago.
how so?
@@zenconfidential25 It's pretty simple really. My politics haven't changed much over the years. I used to be pretty firmly on the left. No one, at that time, would argue. Now I am told I am a dirty centrist or even far right (there doesn't seem to be any other kind). But again what and how I think has changed very little. The political landscape shifted.
@@QuickSh0t I guess this has been happening to old men since the dawn of time :)
It’s not very Buddhist to be polarized right left up down
I think you might be right, and sometimes I also think even being Buddhist is not very Buddhist, if that makes any sense.
@@zenconfidential25 hey man, whatever the karma dictates keep yourself clear and the path will always draw you in much love. I hope you’re doing well out there. Are you still in Austria or are you back in the states?
Still in Austria!
Most Buddhist liberals are conservative in the sense in they just use Buddhist ideology/practice to better-fit into the homogenic ideology of the day: neoliberalism. Ah, get rid of all that stress and guilt and never ever question the social symbolic world that has caused the pain in the first place. As Adorno writes: "The need to lend voice to suffering is a condition of all truth, for it is suffering that weighs on upon the subject. It's most subjective experience is objectively mediated." Most western buddhism is just a band aid for western capitalism. IT replicates capitalist ideology instead of being used to question our social formations. It has forgotten the true meaning of Annatman. OR the Bodhisatva vow of only personal enlightenment when all beings enlightened etc.
Well put, thank you. The reigning ideology is neoliberalism.
it's greatest trick is that it convinces people its not an ideology at all. Sadly western buddhism has been a great ally. Meanwhile: food banks, zero hours contracts, ghettos, environmental wreckage. Have you explored the Speculative Non Buddhism site? I think you'd like it. Tought going but worth in the end. "Ruins of the Buddhist Real." We need more thought, not less. More ideologies rather than "pure perception". Byung Chul Han is great on this. @@zenconfidential25
I'm going to check it out, thank you
good, i think you will like it@@zenconfidential25
not right winger... but supportive 😎
I think it was John Cage who said 'you should always vote for the candidate who you hate the most' 😂
or Sasaki roshi! 'when you look to the west, the east is there... when you look to the north, the south is there'
My god that's brilliant!!
🙂
I a dog has Buddha nature, so does Mitt Romney
but!! does mitt have a dog nature??
Perhaps his teachers are idiots.
MAGA 2024 or RFK Jnr
which one will you vote for?
I am Australian but if I were to be able to vote I would vote for RFK Jnr. However, before knowing he was actually running I would have voted for Donald. Either one of those guys are fighting the deepstate which is a win for humanity.
@@loveudon6972 both are crazies, has to be Biden!
Had to leave Zen due to it’s total abandonment of practice in favor of delusion and racialism.
Had to goto Vajrayana for the time being. But new orders are being born around Aryan Truth.
Aryan truth??
@@zenconfidential25 yes, Aryasatya (noble truths).
Aryan, “noble and educated.” The original meaning of the term and central to Dharma.
Truth is only available to higher/transcendent life forms; the truths themselves are not noble.
Dharma is elitist, or in the words of Melford Spiro “a Virtuoso religion.”
Hierarchical, Conservative, traditional, patristic, ascetical and vigorous.
Really interesting!!
Speaking of Bush, is that a giant picture of one behind you?