Another important example of how this happens is that NT people pay way more attention to body language and tone of voice than autistic people do. So, an autistic person might say "I am in pain right now" in a flat, neutral voice without expression, but they get ignored because they don't "look" like they're in pain because they aren't screaming or writhing around. This can be especially damaging for children who might go to a parent for help but get ignored because they "look fine."
I rather severely hurt myself on a trampoline when I was younger and I was actually writhing around screaming at the top of my lungs and my mother who hadn’t seen me yet thought I was just overreacting??? So she took longer to come and help me? SHE ADMITTED IT. TO MY FACE? It honestly shocked me. Not to dismiss what you’re saying at all. I agree that that’s very true.
That... explains a lot, for me (Aspergers). When I was 10 or so, I broke my arm. Fell off a piece of playground equipment and it snapped clean in half-- but it took a WEEK before anyone believed I was even hurt. The camp nurse told my parents I was fine, and they believed her until they eventually noticed me wincing when the car hit a bump.
[me walking in calmly from the garage to inform my wife that I would like her to please drive me to the emergency room because I can't drive myself, having just drilled a hole most of the way through my hand]
I was passionately into philosophy as a kid. One day in school I told a girl I used to hang out with about Schrödinger, and when I stopped she said "Emma. I stopped listening and I just don't care. I don't understand a word of what you just said." I decided then I'd stop trying to tell people about what I was reading. But that resolve made me feel a bit lonely, so I looked a little extra silent one day, and my mom asked me what's up. I said "I can't find anyone to talk about philosophy with", and she responded I should try to cultivate more normal interests, something that the other kids liked too. I continued to hang out with the girl, and we sometimes watched The Vampire Diaries at her place which I found confusing and boring, I didn't really get it at all. I was slow on social things. Then one day she asked me if we were friends, and I thought for a minute and answered thoughtfully "No, I think we're acquaintances". Then she stormed off crying. After that I worried that I was a bad friend, and that I ought to change myself to get friends. But I kept finding that painful and awkward, so largely I just continued to engage in my interests alone.
That was more then 10 years ago, and I've matured a lot since then. Obviously it influenced me a lot for a while, and I got the mistaken idea that *no one* had niche interests. That's obviously false. I learned instead - just like everybody else has to learn - that there's a balance to navigate from when you're meeting someone for the first time, until you know someone well: The rules change as you get to know each other. You know what interests you share and which you don't. Sometimes you'll befriend someone you share interests with, and other times you don't share interests but you just like each other anyway. Most of my friends I don't share interests with and thats ok. I try not to rant to the ones that don't share the interests, because that's not fun for either of us. I'm still in the habit of defaulting to digging into interests on my own, because it's easier. But it doesn't mean I never share them. Mostly I don't even try, but sometimes, if it seems relevant, I'll mention my interest in the conversation, and mostly it's like they don't really get it, or they do get it but they just dont know what to say, and thats ok. And sometimes they'll get it and agree, and that's nice obviously. But it's also sorta meh. The only amazing thing is when they have something interesting to comment. When that happens, it's a wonderful learning experience and feels like bonding in a different way than when you're just echochambering (agreeing). But even then, it's over quickly. I'll often only have a few comments or questions in return before I say something like "wow, i can see that, that's a new perspective, I learned something new, how exciting, thank you" and then I'll feel satisfied for days or weeks, while - once again - returning to engage in the interest alone. And that's ok. And I don't think that experience varies that much between autists and neurotypicals tbh. Even neurotypicals change their behavior according to who they're with.
@@emmathearcticurbanist I kind of wish we'd somehow been in the same town/city because I was also a nerd with niche interests (paleontology, geology, nuclear science, and science-fiction), but I would have LOVED to listen to you talk about Shroedinger. (it's 50/50 if I can sit down and focus to read something but I'm VERY good at listening to people talk about things they're passionate about even if I don't have a personal interest in it at that time. I might even have "caught" an interest in philosophy from you like I caught one in history from my teacher, hahaha) I'm lucky that my dad and I both seem to have the same thing that's different with our brains, so I had him and his own friend group as conversation partners. It's made some of my social skills suffer, but... I wish I could travel back in time and let you borrow my dad, I bet he would have been thrilled to talk philosophy with you. I wish you the best in occasionally meeting other philosophy nerds to have fun conversations with!
I've found that instead of dismissing, I found that for the neurodivergent people in my life the phrase "Help me understand." has been a godsend. It allows for a deeper conversation, communicates my intention to listen and my desire to know more, and acknowledges the gap in my own experience all in one straightforward request.
I managed to "invent" this phrase and approach by complete accident. My ND partner has a lot of trouble conveying his thoughts and ideas initially, partially as a lack of experience in communication, partially as a trauma response (hiding emotions/feelings from an abusige parent), and partially as a person on the spectrum. I have found it best to try and capture a phrase and/or idea in his responses he seems to be stuck on and/or repeating, and I'll ask about that specifically in an effort to understanding where he's coming from.
I‘m autistic, my husband allistic. he recently realized that asking me what I want to drink for breakfast will lead to me freezing up due to the sheer amount of possibilities. so being a smart man he started breaking the options down into discreet categories like a flowchart: do you want something to drink? - hot or cold? - tea or coffee? also giving me time to decide in between the questions. we‘re adapting that in other situations as well. I would also like to bring up that our nt partners might end up feeling like cassandra at times too, if we fail to pick up on the cues that work well with nt people. I like the idea of meeting each other half-way - both people need to make an effort to make any relationship work. 😊
I really wish people listed options in that way. It's so hard to make decisions about broad topics, especially when I don't know what I want or where it'll lead. "Orange juice? Will it go with the food? Is it too sweet, will it feel bad in my throat? Sparkling water? Do we have any, will it be troublesome to ask for that? Tea? Will it make me too warm, which tea would it even be? Black tea gets bitter fast so should I make it myself if it's black tea? I don't think we have enough green tea, they like green tea so I don't wanna waste it... No wait, do I even want tea?" It never ends.
This is brilliant! I've often tried to explain people that my thought process is from the abstract to the specific rather than the other way around but I could not find a solution to bridge that. In many cases this may be what I have been looking for. Thank you so much for sharing! ❤️
@@Gnomereginam By all means, have the green tea! I'll just get some more later. I can assure you it won't be "wasted" on you. And don't think sparkly water would be too troublesome. I don't believe for a second you're not worth making a little sparkly water for:) That said I actually do need to get some new tea lmao
That’s my entire life. I’m nearly always right, and am almost always resented for that. Once, after objectively crushing my aunt in one of our many debates, she annoyedly proclaimed ‘you always have to be right’. I responded by saying ‘no, I simply make sure that I am before I open my mouth’. This obviously annoyed her further. It’s not my fault that most NT’s are either batshit stupid, or just too intellectually lazy to get anything right. Which is one of many, many reason I feel so much contempt for them. And really, we should call them what they are……. Neuro Inferior.
A lot of the time I wonder why I even bother explaining things to people, when I take time to explain it in great deal, and then they behave as if I never said anything. It gives me the impression that the average person doesn't care, so I will just save all of the trouble and isolate myself. And then there are times when people ask me about something, and I am suddenly unable to communicate all of the details. It's almost as if my brain suddenly forgets what I wanted to say; but eventually I am able to find the words that I wanted to say, and then make sure to tell them what I need to say. But the funny thing is that, it doesn't even matter, because explaining everything doesn't seem to make a difference most of the time. And even though I am much more honest than the average person (I notice that an awful lot of people like to tell fibs to get what they want, and white lies), I still get treated like I am a liar, and that I am untrustworthy. And once I have time to process a situation, and figured out what I want to say (this usually happens during alone time), I will communicate my thoughts and feelings as clear as I possibly can, and then end up being misunderstood, where I ask myself, "How could I possibly have been more clear about it?" And people will even act like they understand (especially when they don't think that I am autistic, and therefore assume that I think the same way, and whatever I said gets perceived through THEIR lens, not mine. When they assume that we perceive something the same way, and they think that we're on the same page, then they continue writing their version of the story in their mind, and expect me to behave a certain way in the future. They expect me to do the things that THEY would do in a situation, and then they end up being totally perplexed when I don't end up dealing with things in a particular manner). I feel like, when people question my autism, and assume that I think like a neurotypical, it causes them not to try very hard to understand everything I am saying. It's as if they are telling themselves, "Oh, she probably just means this or that" and then create a particular story in their head, where they decide to stop listening to me explain all of my points of view. Why? Because it's literally just easier not to try and understand something that's complicated, and just come up with your own version. It's as if they never even heard me, where it's almost like talking to a wall. And the gaslighting that occurs afterwards, just WHY?!! I put in a great effort to understand where a neurotypical person is coming from, and ask many questions about how they see things, and I wish that they would do the same for me. It makes a person feel alone and lonely, even when they surround themselves with people (including family members). You give me enough alone time to think, and I can write down what it was that wanted to say (and watching videos like this gives me another way to explain what it is that I want to say; it gives me more words to explain it!). I tell ya, I believe that it's videos like these that save my sanity.
@@hannahk.summerville5908 Well thank God we have this little community here on UA-cam, so that we don't feel like the only one in the world who has these struggles 🙂.
Before my diagnosis and THIS video, I remember being like "I'm at least good at trying to communicate(in the romantic relationship)" but I was hurt and confused when the response was "You're shit at communication"
i grew the confidence to believe it when i say "no, you're shit at listening." them - "Oh i wish we had a recording so you could hear yourself" me- "omg, i can't believe you just found the sliver lining to big brother surveillance-state. I'm more than happy, I also know I can't be the one to press 'record'."
Have them repeat what you said, keep doing it until they get it right. If they really care about you, they'll WANT to understand you. Make you happy, meet your needs, make you feel safe etc.
The other person is just shit at communicating. They just don't know it cuz they are too busy thinking and doing what they want and not actually communicating. They just think they are.
Wait! What do you mean you can't read my mind?! Isn't everyone telepathic? Ha! Just kidding! I'm definitely not always the best communicator; especially in real time conversation. In writing, I am much better generally speaking because I have time to think of what I want to say and how I want to say it.
"You're not speaking emotionally+irrationally enough" is what I keep hearing. I apparently need to be more reactionary regardless of anything that makes sense, because neurots follow strength over reason.
Thank you for always re-framing that its not entirely the autistic persons fault. First time I've heard of cassandra syndrome and first time I've been able to better understand the double empathy problem, and it explains a lot for me. I incorrectly think I'm being clear and understanding what I'm being told; NT doesn't and therefore just moves on, annoyed with me because they think I am being deliberately obtuse, which I am unaware of and feel invalidated and frustrated. Repeat ad nauseum. No wonder my professional, and personal, life is a mess.
I once had someone scream at me (before my diagnosis): “You can’t be THAT obtuse!” I screamed back “I AM that obtuse!” (And I almost never scream but wow was it weird to be told something wasn’t true about me that I knew to be true about me from years of experience.)
I had a similar situation like that in high school with one of my teachers when attempting to explain my Hang-Ups with creative writing she would always brushed off as being the losers limp
Same! Often I feel like that with social things where it feels like this is something everyone knows, just for an example say a midnight text asking you up is likely a hook up kind of thing. I'd more likely just assume they are a night owl like me or can't sleep and need to talk or something. Or if I'm sending the midnight text I'm hoping they'll be up so I can talk. Other times I kinda feel that way is when I get what seems like an out of proportion and not what expected response from someone. I'm trying to think of an example but of course nothing is coming to mind, but I end up feeling like whatever handle I had on being able not predict but have a good idea of what another person is going to was completely wrong. Or in the same vein, I can try to do something just like someone else but get the opposite reaction. So much of social interaction, especially in person, just feels like everyone knows the "rules" but me and even when I try to follow them I do it wrong.
@@Quirkyalonester yeah another aspect of course is those pesky double standards 4 things that are appropriate for some people seemingly aren't appropriate for others simply because of an arbitrary trait that isn't even related
Had a disciplinary letter in my personnel file one that said that one of the expectations was that I should respond to written communication according to their intent rather than literal meaning. They said that having an interpreter would not be a reasonable accommodation for disability. I had to be reassured by my therapist that my inability to meet that expectation wasn't because I'm autistic, but because I'm only human. They'd added literal telepathy to my job requirements
Every time I watch your videos, my stress levels drop right down. You explain things in a way that I understand but cannot express in this intolerant, impatient, non-understanding world. I can struggle with verbalising my thoughts and feelings - half the time, I don't even understand what they even are myself! On the occasions when I do verbalise my thoughts and feelings, I get it "wrong" and am playing "the game" all wrong, leading to ostracisation and isolation - even from other NDs.
YES!!!!! " You have to communicate this way or I'll ignore you" I literally can't. I can't just start talking to strangers. So they dismiss my communication because it doesn't " fit".
That moment when a neurotypical person assumes you're lying to them because no one is that honest. No one just SAYS the thing. And now they're angry with you because you "blatantly lied" to them and you're standing their angry and confused as to why you're being called a liar when you told the truth. Like, I know the meaning of the words coming out of my mouth... they directly and literally describe your honest response... Like, how do you rephrase to make something clearer than the direct and literal words you mean?!?
NT or not, that's just fucking stupid. Whoever you're talking about needs to learn to meet people at their level and acknowledge that "This individual I'm taking to is just more honest and verbose than most people I've met". Pretty simple
Metaphors and similes help me. When I feel too angry and like I’m going to blurt out things that can really offend someone I inform I need some time alone and say I will come back once I’ve cooled down. Just like us NT can get triggered so sometimes it’s not always about us, the tone, word choice we use or our facial expressions when we communicate.
Orion, from a mum who has spent most of my son's life trying to explain his actions and reactions with little reciprocal understanding, your video's are a godsend. You articulate what I want to tell people in a way that promotes understanding, they get sent to friends and relatives. Thank you. Also, amazingly, my son responds positively to your discussions and actively seeks them out. He has always been resistant to "explanatory" information, not sure why but you obviously expressed his experience of the world far better than anyone else could, for that I am infinitly grateful. Keep up the good work
Well, as an autistic daughter, I can promise it makes a world of difference to feel validated. My mother has come around to me being autistic. Does she understand perfectly? No. But I don't understand her perfectly either. What makes a difference is knowing that she's trying and vice versa. After years of people not trying at all, and accepting that I'm the one that always has to change to fit into the neurotypical world, it's just nice to feel like someone is putting the same energy into our relationship. It's hard work, but it's worth it.
@@KRAKENKRYPTED awesome screen name. I think that I'm autistic and maybe my son is too. Since learning about autism I'm trying to be more understanding to both of my kids and also myself. My son freaks out when I try to put his winter jacket on if his sleeve comes up, he will just stand there and be yelling. It was a cause of frustration but now I realize that I have to be patient and just help in getting it the way that he will be comfortable
@@heedmydemands, if it makes you feel better, I used to scream when my mom would blow dry my hair as a child. So, one day, a neighbor called Child Protective Services and my mother had to take me to their offices for an interview. I was probably 4 or 5 years old. While there, the guy in charge of the case asked if I wanted anything to drink and kindly gave me some orange juice. And like any child would, I promptly spilled it all over myself and threw an absolute fit. But, the interviewer laughed to my mother and said he could see I was a handful and promptly let us go home. I would never behave this way as an adult, which is important to keep in mind! We grow up and change and then new things bother us for totally different reasons. And we get better at managing our meltdowns even if we don't stop having them completely. And in all likelihood, one day your kid won't remember the jacket issues and it'll be a story you tell and bond over. Just know it gets easier when we learn how to communicate a bit better!
For me, expressing my feelings once I knew them was rarely a challenge, though I likely rarely expressed empathy in the ways neurotypicals expected. A partner once said I was a puzzle wrapped in an enigma, which I thought was the strangest take on me (said after 15 years of relationship) because I always said what I meant and meant what I said. I’ve been in three long term relationship with neurotypicals and none of us knew I was autistic. I think they felt the Cassandra syndrome because (1) I couldn’t read between the lines and thought, when I realised this was going on in a particular situation, that they wanted me to read their minds and (2) they just wanted me to interact with them as other neurotypicals do-that is, understand their indirect way of communicating. I knew people were indirect, I just didn’t understand how indirect they actually are because I’m clueless as to how much of this kind of communication goes over my head. I just thought I was super direct and came up with all sorts of reasons (likely correct) of why neurotypicals in general are indirect. I don’t think these partners realised that I really couldn’t read their indirect communications, and so my failure to read, to even be aware of the fact that we weren’t having the conversation they thought we were having, meant they interpreted my behavior according to how they’d interpret another neurotypical. E.g., I was ignoring them, being self-centered, purposefully misunderstanding them, being difficult (yeah, I thought they were being difficult too by not directly sharing their thoughts, feelings, and needs). It felt like people were projecting their insecurities onto me.
Neurotypicals are often indirect because they're very sensitive when it comes to image, pride, ego, and the like. They're more emotion-based. Their complexity is in emotion and social rules. Neurodivergents like autistic people are not as sensitive when it comes to appearance and standing, they're much more about function than form. You probably already know all of this at least subconsciously, but I've found it hard to describe until recently. I never understood neurots' sense of importance with image and standing in the social dynamic, I just considered it mockworthy until I realized most of culture and everything upward and outward is built heavily on those things. Functional things like cars and phones etc are just considered disposable tools by the social egoists, whom don't even realize they're being maximally egotistical. Being ostracized cruelly for not conforming to this overblown egoism has been quite damaging to my self-esteem, but it's always been something I've had to manually learn through, while the benefit of that manual learning is being able to navigate/manipulate the egoists into a better outcome than they'd ever allow themselves to even consider.
I think there’s a big difference between communicating something and not being heard/listened to, vs not being believed. The latter means they heard you but they think you are lying. So incredibly isolating.
I am neurotypical and dating a guy with autism and I gotta say, I absolutely love his direct, open and honest style of communication and I kinda adapted it it makes things so much easier and makes at least me feel even more emotionally connected and it builds trust on both sides it felt like a breath of fresh air after my ex boyfriend who bottled up his emotions until problems piled up too high
My wife felt the same while dating; no lies, no BS, no jealousy. But that was before diagnosis. After years of marriage, she pined for more authentic connection and complained my lack of jealousy came off as uncaring. Point being: don’t expect us to change one day and become something we aren’t made to be.
I guess I am lucky then because I have the most authentic connection with my partner that I ever had with anyone and I thrive off of being super loyal, so I dont give him reason to be jealous and dont expect him to be but ofc there's always little imperfections where one might hope for change but I'm aware that I'll have to see how it goes and shouldn't push too hard, if he cant do it, that's that and we'll have to figure out how to handle it
perhaps your ex was also Neurodivergent, living with too much shame to live authentically, and was masking until external demand exceeded his capacity to cope internally.
Getting gaslighted over it too. I've found that to be a big part of it thousands of times, being nearly 60 years old. Six decades of life, it's been the worst part of a century
Yeah, that's the worst. I've definitely had cases where people get frustrated at me and I can't even tell if they're truly unreasonably expecting me to read their mind or if they're mad because "a normal person would've understood". Though I've been told even if that were the case, getting mad about it isn't reasonable because it isn't fair to hold me to a normal person's standards. Not like that always sinks in after so many years of internalized self-loathing.
@@jaschabull2365 it isn't even about "normal" person or not. Sometimes people are just acting like a dick. You can be "normal" and also be flat out wrong and evil with your ignorance.
Gaslighting . . . Yep! My wife with whom I have been separated for 1.5 years now did that a lot. Rather than attempt to defuse a situation, she would add fuel to the fire and then wonder why my temper erupts like a volcano. She's a good person and we can talk for an hour or so every couple of weeks on the phone without a problem. However, this gaslighting thing is one of the many reasons I decided to leave. We're simply not compatible with one another.
If you think Cassandra Syndrome is bad between a NT person and an ASD person, you should see what it's like between two late-diagnosed ASD people who aren't on _exactly_ the same wavelength and who are packed full of decades of self-developed coping mechanisms.
This sounds like my past relationship. She told me being an undiagnosed asd and during those couple of years I seriously considered and convinced myself on being one myself (because it explained a lot about my past and current life). We both kind of accused each other for lying several times. It was a confusing mess.
The part where you talk about processing speed! ADHD (suspect AuDHD) here… and I find it physically distressing to have patience for someone else to process sometimes, and often have to stim during the waiting time (which of course then looks like I’m being impatient anyway!). Assuming that’s the ADHD component. This is definitely a challenge in my relationships 😅
As AuDHD myself, I fully relate to this. There are some things that take me a long while to process but that has more to do with people saying things to me that are hurtful and make no sense to me. I often can’t access my internal reaction in these situations to bring the thing itself into my fully conscious mind for processing. Likely a trauma response tied to our ability to disassociate more easily.
I’ve had really good conversations with my partner when I am so tired that I doze off between his answers… finally he gets all the processing time he needs!
My boyfriend and I definitely have issues with Cassandra syndrome. It's weird because I really feel like he's also on the spectrum but somehow we still seem to miss each other's meaning and what the other really needs..... it's very frustrating but the connection we share is well worth any odd hits and misses in our communication. Thankfully we are working on understanding our autism differences and allowing this to be a stronger more respectful relationship.
What frustrates and even infuriates me is that most of the literature on Casandra syndrome/phenomenon demonizes the autistic person, it puts all of the 'blame' on us.
yes exactly! I tried to do more research on Cassandra syndrome and the entire first page of google is links to websites demonizing autistic people. in a sense it's demonstrative of Cassandra syndrome if you think about it
That is really sad to hear, actually. Oddly, when first heard Orion describe what Cassandra Syndrome was, I automatically assumed it was NT people not understanding autistic people. Maybe I was just thinking about my parents, but that situation would probably occur a lot as well, wouldn't it?
@@ChaoticNeutralMatt your comment Literwlly proves the point of the original commenter. Sometimes NTs are the ones who are communicating clearly. It’s not always on us autists
It was my understanding that Cassandra Syndrome refers to the NT partner not the partner who is ND. It is what develops when he/she tries to describe what living within a neurodiverse relationship is like to anyone outside the couple. She/he is attempting to share her/his experience of living with an autistic partner and no one understands, usually because the ND partner is very good at masking.
That is what Cassandra syndrome refers to. This video and most of the commenters seem to have it backwards, which I find to be frustrating. For years I would try to describe my marriage to others, and they seemed to think my husband was just being a typical man (or, feminists insisted he was being a chauvinist.) Their responses did not ring true and left me feeling isolated. No matter what I did, I could not reach him across the divide, and I couldn't find anyone who understood my isolation. When I finally stumbled on Cassandra Syndrome and read that others (usually a NT woman married to an austistic man) had experienced something similar, it was a big relief. Now I understand that the autistic people watching this video are having a bit of similar feeling of relief in hearing someone else describe their situation. But that situation is not Cassandra Syndrome; it is the autism.
@@susanlang9261The video and comments slightly bemused me too. My first thought on Cassandra Syndrome was how I could prevent this ever happening to my own neurotypical wife.
Same! This is the common explanation of Cassandra syndrome all around the web! My partner suggested I check it out (me as the potentially Aut one). The explanation here being boiled down to a communication issue is genius. That's what it is at the end of the day. As the assumed Autistic person in my relationship, reading all the other info about this and the symptoms had me in tears because it was describing perfectly how I, the autistic person had been feeling. But I couldn't understand how it felt so applicable to me when I can see very clearly how someone with Autism would make their partner feel this way. Stumbling onto this video made so much sense. Of COURSE both partners are going to feel unheard, misunderstood even neglected because the mode of communication between the two people is different.
This video is absolutely ruining the validity of what goes on for NT partners in these relationships. - and once again the autism community is demanding that other people bend to their needs and take a whole entire syndrome that belongs to victims of abusive situations for themselves.
Yes, this is completely backwards. Cassandra Syndrome IS what happens to the NT spouse - at least that was the origin of it. Perhaps it's been hijacked by the ND crowd, but I haven't seen that anywhere else other than here.
This is another one of those "why did I only get diagnosed 8 months ago and spend my life in misery?" moments. You explain things so well. This explains why so many of my relationships, romantic, platonic and family, have been so challenging. I wish I could go back to my childhood and show my mum your channel. Sadly at 37, it's a bit too late.
Join the club. People suspected but I didn't think I was like the few rambling low functioning autistics I knew that were at the full "special needs" level. My sister who has a psychology degree (proper one, 4 years of college with honours) bought the subject up again last week. It appears that I have 3 or 4 aspects of very high functioning autism. Finally my social difficulties that I could never get past are getting understood. I'm one of these people that can master almost ANYTHING from plumbing to sewing to electrical and basic electronics right down to difficult to propagate and grow cacti. And I could never understand why I couldn't seem to master some social things or would be left out in social groups like churches. I would force myself into social situations again and again like "I'll learn this crap if it kills me trying". Never understanding why it was so hard when I could master other things in a few months EVERY time. Now I find out. At age 42. Probably too late for marriage and kids.
I've found that expressing out loud what I think my son wants to say helps more than explaining why he can't have it or can't have it right now. So saying, " I want to ride the train right now Mom" is better than saying the train is closed. He first wants to be understood
I totally get it, but as an NT, I feel there is more responsibility on me to understand my ND husband than there is for him to understand me. I believe this needs to be a reciprocal learning and understanding.
It may feel that way, but usually as a ND, we tend to do endless amounts of research and experimenting to understand the NT world. I'm sure if you looked into it, he's putting in just as much effort as, if not more effort than, you in this learning and understanding process. However, he is a man.. which.. actually men (especially white) tend to have less of a need and desire to mask and therefore this could really be the case for you.
My husband, who is diagnosed AS. Refuses to do any research on AS. I have done endless research on AS for the last 10 years. When i try to share the infor with him, he gets stressed and still in denial.
Been the biggest challenge in my life with any interaction I have with people. I'm virtually a hermit, I gave up on being able to get along with people a long time ago.
I'm an aspiring hermit 😅 I get so tired of trying to figure out the nuances, to think about every way something I say could misinterpreted, and yet it gets misinterpreted anyway. In my past relationships I'll say something like "I wish we could spend more time together." Why do I say this? Because I wish we could spend more time together (spending 1 day on the weekend and two weekday evenings together at this time). How does my NT partner interpret this? I'm demanding, codependent, I don't support her spending time with her kids or work, I'm selfish, needy, I don't respect her needs, I'm rushing her to move in together too quickly, etc. Like, no, I understand why we can't spend more time together. I'm not suggesting anything actually change. I just have heart-felt desire to spend more time together and I'm expressing that. That's literally it. Everything is like this. I'm being manipulative, even though I'm putting 90% of the time, energy and money into the relationship (she comes over, I've made dinner and dessert, planned entertainment, give her a shoulder rub while we do whatever, then she leaves and I clean everything up). Or if I say that it's hard for me when she says she's going to do something and then doesn't and it would be better if she just didn't promise it in the first place, then I'm calling her a liar and lazy and placing too many expectations on her etc. and this is also me being manipulative. When I say I'm not being manipulative, and point out that I'm not actually asking for anything really, well now I'm gas lighting her. Now she expects an apology because I hurt her feelings and I'm just like "What? I was trying to convey something nice in one instance and telling you you're hurting me in another and somehow I have to apologize? That makes no sense!" The exasperation. I'm working towards just living off grid in the woods with no humans around.
@@kracklinkamphyre7142 Sounds like quite the nightmare. I'm frigid so it's easier for me to leave that alone. The emotional connection is harder to live without but my experience was that it wasn't really available anyway.
He makes a great point with the double empathy problem. FAR FAR TOO OFTEN had I been told that because I'm the autistic person that it was just my responsibility to change and learn and adapt and not anyone elses responsibility. I think as people we have a responsibility to try and understand each other so we can treat each other as fellow humans not just a person that should behave a certain way. This topic is a sore one for me because some people are so unkind and self centered.
Hear hear. My precious relationship broke down because of this. I tied myself in knots trying to understand them, accept them and accommodate them, and yet I got almost nothing in return. They said I was mad.
Thankyou so much for this video! I was accidentally making her feel dismissed and unheard. I realized that a few days ago, while listening to your videos, I had made all the mistakes you talk about involving Cassandra Syndrome with her. I didn’t know anything about autism while thinking I did. Watching/listening to your videos have taught me so much that’ll help me know how show her how much she means to me and to be a safe place for her in this stressful world. Instead of being just another man that causes her to feel misunderstood or not significant. She has the most beautiful heart I’ve seen. She deserves the world but, so many people have made her feel otherwise. Without your videos, a relationship between me and her probably wouldn’t have been possible. You are making a difference for the better in people’s lives.
This explains why i have never been able to feel comfortable in relationships with NTs, i feel like theyre always dismissing and crossing my boundaries that i have in my opinion communicated very clearly.
It's not an NT or ND thing, it's having basic morals and respect thing. If a person above the age of 20 can't listen to you and respect your boundaries they are just not ready for a relationship. Be it NT or ND.
Hi there. I’m the NT in a 10yr marriage, which was great until I was injured and permanently disabled. For the past 2 years, I’ve not been able to handle 80% of the ‘to-do’s and responsibilities’ of marriage and parenting. I found that I was constantly feeling gaslighted and let down. It was very confusing and hurtful. My husband was undiagnosed and it took two years to finally understand what was going on…and those two years were traumatic. I’ve always been supportive and patient with hubs and remained so through those two years. My understanding, very different from yours, is that while I experienced this disconnect during that time, everyone else saw (what he had named for as long as I’ve known him) “Mayor Mode”. So my ‘Cassandra’ experience had nothing to do with me not doing all I could to get along (even though he was presenting what looked like narcissistic/gaslighting behaviors on a daily basis), and knowing that he didn’t ‘treat anyone else that way’. I knew that (and he agreed) his behaviors were hurtful, but I also knew that at his core he didn’t want to let me down. So I hung in and we finally (in our 50’s) realized what was going on. In your videos, you come across as defensive and seem to always assume the NT is automatically impatient, inflexible and must be unable to communicate wants and needs in a clear, concise, and cooperative manner. This has not been our experience, so surely many NT’s are quite different than you tend to portray. Perhaps it’s worth considering for the sake of reaching a bigger audience.
@@erindover6617 for real. I have Cassandra syndrome from dealing with years of being with an Aspy husband. It's those major moments in life where you really see him too.
Youre so right. The Orygin of Cassandra Syndrome is hurtfull mistreatment which serves autistic partner to his NT wife. Im one of them and its such unfair that NT people in relations are so lonely with their problems. Nowadays it seems that being autistic is even cool and only such kind of people are misunderstand and mistreated. But what about thousends of woman and men suffering in silence every day wirh nobody to listen to, nobody to understand. Why there are not dwdicated sites, YT channels for NT and their extremally harmfull relations with autistic partners? Who knows?
@@nikiniki1284 Autism 1 is very slowly becoming recognized in the US. For what you are describing, I’d suggest you read a book called “The Journal of Best Practices”. The author writes about how he and his wife realized he was on the spectrum, and then goes on to tell how he took accountability for areas in which he could improve on as a husband/partner/friend. I do, however, want to emphasize that in no way should you expect that if your Hubs reads the book, that he will be enlightened or inspired to make changes. I’m not saying it’s not possible, but it’s unlikely. But for you, it will help you see that Autism isn’t an excuse for being abusive/dismissive of your needs/unwilling to meet you in the middle/etc. Jodi Carlton has some good content on yt that may be helpful also.
My husband, my son and I are all autistic but we're not all exactly the same. I can say that my husband was the first person that I ever felt that I could truly be myself with. He understands me more than anyone I've ever met. Our son also has ADHD and when we ask a question, half the time he doesn't hear it at all. We're trying to teach him to just say something if he needs more time to process so that we know if we need to repeat it or if he just needs more time to think about it (he's 12). The phrase "let me think about that" or even "just a minute" are things we're working on. It's strange how something that you might do can still be annoying when your child does it because you know how the rest of the world sees it. I was chastised all the time when I was his age and my parents chastise him whenever they babysit. It's frustrating because they don't "believe in autism"
I like that you’re trying to help him out a bit by telling him to let you know if he needs more time to respond. I wish my parents and some colleagues would have done that, as sometimes I did need more than the two seconds they expected me to respond in. I don’t know if I am autistic (was diagnosed in 2000, wasn’t told until later in life…) but my current counsellor thinks it could be C-PTSD instead. I also have suspected dyspraxia and ADHD. Hoping the new surgery I’m registering with will refer me for (re)assessments. Also, I can’t stand anyone who doesn’t “believe” in neurodivergent states.
I don’t think it gets talked about often enough how much of an internal struggle it can be being an ND parent of ND kids in a largely NT society, especially when it comes to managing certain behaviors. You might 100% understand where your kid is coming from, and even be guilty of said behaviors yourself, but you still feel like you need to help them be aware of what behaviors are OK in which situations/locations and that we need to do our best to speak to each other respectfully, even if we’re upset. Idk if that would be considered masking, but I feel like we all have a responsibility to grow as people and master ourselves as best we can, not to be people pleasers, but to not be a prisoner of our whims and be able to be the best version of ourselves Idk man, I’m still trying to figure this all out. I’m in the middle of the official diagnosis process, but for what it’s worth, autism and ADHD both strongly resonate with me and explain a lot about my life
Depending on which generation I'm speaking with or how familiar we are with each other, I'll choose terminology like, "Loading, Processing, Spooling, Please Wait," or, "Error loading. Trying again." Or downright, "Does not compute." 😅
I love your screen name. I wish I could greet people by saying "hello sir or madam" but people wouldn't like that lol, the idea of doing it just delights me but I won't do it
@@heedmydemands I learned how to speak english at 13, turning 19 now in a few months. I still struggle with speaking verbally, but I find texting easier since I use grammar chrome extensions to help me out. :)
I had the understanding that Cassandra Syndrome was actually referring to the experience of the partner on the end of the alexithymic situation, where they tell people (including their partner) that there's a problem but nobody believing them - particularly because the unemotive partner comes off to others outside the relationship as super rational and emotionally balanced, marginalising and further alienating the Cassandra partner who is suffering.
@@girlinthebookstore it is originally. I think he is turning it around to show that it can work both ways. I had to go back and research a bit, because I thought what you thought, and you are correct. Being an autistic, we do have troubles, as part of our diagnosis. I don’t want anyone hijacking the term though. NT have to be heard in the struggles of being in a relationship with a ND too. My poor husband….how he tolerates me at times 😉.
Look anywhere on UA-cam We want normalization but they took it tooo far now everyone should blame the parents or something. Still disregarding our needs
Same here. Add addictions that the divergent spouse has in addition to autism. It can and does create PTSD in the neurotypical spouse. After 25 years of undiagnosed autism in my spouse and nearly losing my mind and counse for PTSD-it all makes sense having heard an actual diagnosis.
There’s misinformation about this that neurotypicals have spread to spread prejudice about autistic people. It’s actually about someone who tells the truth, but never believed. Basically, it’s describing trauma autistic people have from having to deal with bullying and ostracism from neurotypicals (which never ends and affects our live negatively) But of course, when something doesn’t describe neurotypicals they can’t stand not being the center of attention and have decided to lie about it and say it’s actually about their “struggle dealing with us” basically ableism and gaslighting us autistic people yet again. 🙄🤦🏻
@@JaneHobby-zm3fgmost autistic people have CPTSD from being constantly bullied and treated as less than by neurotypicals. Cassandra syndrome is often referring to autistic people and how studies show we are less believed even though we generally tell the truth more than average neurotypical.
I really appreciate this video calling out differences in communication styles and BOTH partners needing to meet in the middle. Cassandra Syndrome happens to both partners in a neurodiverse relationship. And as the NT partner I have to literally tell my ND partner when I need a hug or that I'm feeling frustrated/upset/sad. But that can be EXTREMELY hard for me sometimes because I'm the type to bottle negative emotions and act like everything is fine and dandy. I used to think that my partner was ignoring me and insensitive until I realized that he literally cannot read the more nuanced signals that would clue him into my needing support. It's still a struggle that we both put effort in to make better.
Orion I'm literally crying right now because I am un-diagnosed ASD (diagnosed via testing but brushed off by anti-ASD doctors so I have no formal paper diagnosis other than test results) wife who understands how NTs operate socially due to extreme masking and mimicking of NTs for over 20 years (I act mostly NT as a social shield) who has a diagnosed non-masking ASD husband. We were fighting last night and for the last five years because I thought he was being cold and selfish and ignoring my triggers and feelings (PTSD and ASD triggers). He legitimately did not understand me and I did not understand him and we spent the last five years stone walling each other and just got married 3 months ago. I had this epiphany last night and you just HAPPENED to upload a video about this explaining that it is called Cassandra Syndrome. I did not even realize that this experience even had a word. I cannot even describe how thankful I am for your videos. I recently subscribed to you and we are learning so much about each other and tune in every new video and watch older ones too. THANK YOU SO MUCH.😭😭😭
This is a direct quote of what I believe is a brochure by the University of Washington Autism Center “Inaccurate self diagnosis of autism appears to be uncommon. We believe that if you have carefully researched the topic and strongly resonate with the experience of the autistic community, you are probably autistic”. Your diagnosis is completely valid. It doesn’t have to be an official clinical one.
@@madberry Another reason why you are correct is that autism still has a profound amount of stigma attached. Autism doesn't have the acceptance that conditions like ADHD has. In fact, with the latter condition, it gets thrown around with reckless abandon.
it's not only how we express our self... there's also nt cognitive bias.. after 4 trips with my gf and a couple, i asked why when i asked to stop somewhere we wouldn't and i was told 'next trip' while we did stop for anyone else... "Manu, we did not understand that when you ask, it's important for you." let that sink in... if someone else say "oh! i would stop there", they understand it's important. if i say "oh! i would stop there", they don't...
Orion, you did it for me again at 12:05! Breakthrough for the day. This is why I freeze when people need information quickly from me... They ask and it starts my lookup process. Asking a second time while I'm trying to process what they asked just derails the lookup I was trying to do in my head. AND - I figured out the mechanism in my own case. It's because I have all that information up there and it makes sense to me as raw data. I'm having to TRANSLATE into something comprehensible to another person, especially when it's a neurotypical person, and there's several things that may also have to be checked off before I'm sure we're on the same concept, even in what they might believe is an incredibly straightforward question.
For me it's like shuffling through a huge stack of loose leaf papers, binders, and cards, finding the right one, making sure nothing's spilled on it, and then making sure it's actually right side up. Then I can start reading. And that's if they don't ask me a second time. Then it's like I dropped it, everything got shuffled and I have to start over again.
i can’t imagine being able to just say what you’re thinking. i have to translate too. ironically my thoughts are too literal, and i have to elaborate on them and change up phrasing so it doesn’t come out sounding like something else completely. i think i’ve said “my jacket is too warm” once when asked why im not wearing it if im cold- i was trying to convey that the jacket i had brought wasn’t the one i had planned to bring, because the color was too warm toned and would clash with my outfit. i had planned the perfect outfit with the perfect jacket, and accidentally brought the wrong one.
My 33 year old son was recently diagnosed autistic. This video is very helpful to me in understanding his needs. I appreciate how you describe and explain the needs of neurodivergent people. Thank you Orion!!
I have a lot of feelings, and they can be confusing. I’m also kind of compulsively honest and open. It offended me recently when in a conversation with my partner where she was trying to understand me, she said that she finds it hard to understand me “because she’s very straightforward and logical.” That implies that I’m not straightforward and logical, but I disagree! I’m doing my best logical reasoning with the thoughts and feelings that I have! Also I disagree that people who speak obliquely or circumspectly are “playing games.” They are probably just following the rules of their upbringing that forced them to hide certain reactions/feelings and amplify or manufacture others. They are probably women. Girls are socialized to be sweet literally every time they speak.
When I'm like, I'm angry cuz no one is listening to me. And they're like " .... hmm? Hey why are you getting so angry?" Then I'm start yelling at the top of my lungs IM ANGRY BECAUSE NO ONE IS LISTENING TO ME and they respond be talking over me and telling me they still can't figure out why I'm so angry.... oh man, I can't even tell you... it's SO annoying. I know I probably shouldn't be throwing tantrums at nearly 40 but some people are too stupid to exist. I finally removed all of my family members from my existence, blocked and deleted their numbers, blocked their email addresses... and have finally had the first breathe of peace in my entire life. It's so nice to not have people constantly picking at me and pointing out all the ways I could never make them happy. It's difficult enough not mixing well with others to have to deal with that shit constantly on top of it, constantly breaking you down when you just need someone who finally gets you.
Wow, what a revelation, there's actually a name for it and how perfect that it's Cassandra! Having only recently being diagnosed, and a lifetime of being dismissed by my family of origin; I do feel relief but also unable to share my autism, for fear of perpetuating Cassandra Syndrome abuse. Thank you for sharing this!🥰
I have a minor in psychology and was married to an autistic man for 6 yrs. I listened to all his needs and what he needed, but he never listened to what I needed. My needs were always blown off.
I get it. It's not official but I think I was raised by autistic people. Or at least totally useless when it comes to emotional regulation. So, naturally, I have had a very hard time knowing how I felt, but I understand them perfectly. But what I needed emotionally and tried to convey landed on deaf ears. I understand that they couldn't help being the way they are but... It still sucks. And I'm glad you left. It's hard but we deserve someone who will put in some effort too. ❤
That's a human thing, not an autism thing. So many NT couples break up because of that, one giving 100% while the other person gives under 100%. It is what it is, people suck, some more, some less, some in some ways, some in others.
Yes to this. It is a very one sided relationship for many of us married to individuals with autism. I’ve met many people who claim it is not that way with their spouse. They should consider themselves very lucky
I was with an NT woman for eight years whose needs I listened to and took care of, but was rarely reciprocated. Just like you, I dated a HUMAN BEING who was a certain way. You were married to a jerk; you are framing it as if his autism is directly the reason he was a jerk. That's ableist, absurd, asinine, arrogant, yikes. You know what my problem with people like you is? You think that your experience is the standard, and not a RANDOM SAMPLE. If you married an autistic person, you married ONE AUTISTIC PERSON. You did not marry a representative of The Autists. Get your head out of the sand and listen to the world around you!
My husband has autism and I might too. He is the one experiencing Cassandra syndrome most because I don't experience empathy to a full degree. I know cognitively that I should be kind to him and help him meet his needs, but emotionally I feel little so I often miss a kind of internal motivator to do so. It really helps if he is more clear about his own needs and if I look at it from his perspective more, which I have to to actively. Still going strong for 15 years though.
Interesting… I have hyper empathy and I still don’t respond as neurotypicals expect… in part because I might not understand their indirect communication. I also know that neurotypicals often dial down their feelings when talking about them and so therefore dial up the feelings when listening to others and have experienced them dialling up mine. Still, knowing this doesn’t mean I recognise it when they’re expressing their feelings. Also, neurotypicals also seem to take a lot of offence with our direct communication style-i.e., they take a lot of things personally. It seems like you probably don’t do that and so that would be experienced as a relief. I’m glad you recognise cognitively to respond to your husband.
As they say everyone experiences this differently. My situation is switched, I give him room for all his needs but struggle with getting reciprocity. I actually do "say that" but I suspect PDA or other factors (adhd?) mean he just can't. Its difficult because it's adding to my burn out and has meant I might need to consider removing myself to get better. We can only do what we can do....
@Sam Preston it sounds like what I'm going through right now. It's quite painful trying to communicate needs and feelings when the other person is incapable of receiving or giving them, especially because it's not their fault that they can't. I hope you know you aren't alone! Learning about affective deprivation disorder has helped me validate this experience.
I remember telling my grandma very straight up "I don't like this person, he gives me a bad feeling" when a random friend of my brother acted interested in me, and she responded by thinking I liked the guy and was being coy, so she gave him my personal information and singlehandedly created a problem of the guy stalking me because SURELY I wouldn't say what I meant 😐🛑
Thank you for this information. My husband who is an Asperger does this whole pause with responding back to what I asked or said and I thought he just didn’t want to respond. I did not realize until this video that he is trying to process what I have said or asked. Thank you for helping me to better understand my husband .
Am I the only one with an ASD husband who is a passive-aggressive emotional wreck? So many women refer to their husband, even their ASD husband as "He's my rock!" I wish I had that! I'm the logical, direct one. I'm the rock. He's the freaking out floppy fish I'm trying to coax back into the water. And he absolutely did not show signs of this in the 2 and a half years leading up to marriage. But as soon as we were married - BOOM - mask off! And no one believes me because he knows how to put the mask back on around everyone else. Cassandra Syndrome
This causes pain in more than just relationships. It also causes gaps in health care (sometimes leading to dangerous situations) and a gross lack of needed supports during IEP meetings.
Yet, it baffles me that the ND community is trying to appropriate it. Or they say that they feel empathy. People under the spectrum experience things differently from people who aren’t under the spectrum. I feel ND and NT people use the same terms that mean completely different things. I can’t even begin to fathom what may be like to experience the world as an autistic person. IMO, best thing we can do is to believe the autistic people and for autistic people to believe the non autistic people. I feel that we live in different realities, not that one is correct and the other one is wrong. One thing I know for a fact is that I would never associate with anyone who is diagnosed as HFA because I am convinced that communication is virtually impossible.
@@inadifferentdimension1774 Let's look at the dictionary definition of empathy real quick. Empathy; the ability to understand and share the feelings of another. As an autistic person I UNDERSTAND how frustrating it is when someone doesn't "get" what you are trying to communicate. I also SHARE those FEELINGS of frustration because it is equally as frustrating when I don't "get" it. A clear example of how an autistic person can feel empathy. What is often mistaken as autistic people being unempathetic is when how someone feels is NOT COMMUNICATED to us in a way we are able to understand. Because facial expressions/ social cues/ body language etc. is an entirely SEPARATE language. If you as an english speaking person wanted to communicate to a french speaking person you would both do one of three things; learn english/french, have someone translate or find a language both parties speak. So actually an english speaking NT person can quite easily communicate with an english speaking ND person, because both parties can speak ENGLISH. So despite how "convinced" you are that communication is "virtually impossible" it actually isn't. What DOES baffle me is why someone who "would never associate with an HFA" is watching a UA-cam video created by an autistic person for autistic people and people who DO want to associate with other autistic people. UNLESS said person only clicked on said video in order to leave a hateful, unempathetic, ableist comment about autistic people... in which case, GET A NEW HOBBY!
I’ve gotta say this can definitely go the other way too. I literally just had a conversation with my autistic partner where he acted pretty dismissive of my needs and basically said, “Okay I’ll do that if you really want me to but I don’t really think that need is valid.” I would have preferred if he had asked me to clarify why the need was important to me. And at least if he’s anything to go by, not all autistic people think it’s obvious to just ask directly for what you need. My partner seems to have internalized the idea that being direct like this is something he is “not allowed” to do (possibly a masking thing? I don’t know for sure because he hasn’t told me, haha). I’m trying my best to communicate that I need him to be more direct, in a way that’s inviting rather than demanding, but also still firm. But then, sometimes he doesn’t know what he’s feeling or what he needs. I’m willing to be patient about him telling me because I know it doesn’t always come as naturally to him, and I’m very sympathetic to this. But I know it is up to him in the end to convey this information to me because I can’t read his mind. And trying to read your partner’s mind can lead to some destructive codependent dynamics. So yes, I think both partners need to be committed to trying to understand the other person and trying to make themselves understood to the other person, even when it’s hard. NT behavior often seems to strike autistic people as “illogical.” But there might be a very good reason for it that the autistic person doesn’t understand. And the NT person would be much more willing to explain that reason if the autistic person responded with curiosity and was open to the idea that they might be missing some information, rather than jumping to, “Well that just doesn’t make any sense.” Same goes for NT people trying to understand autistic people, of course.
Oh, yeah, experience tells us that when you're direct, people get offended. But then they don't tell you WHY they're offended because "you KNOW what you did!" or other dismissive nonsense. So we just try not to share after a while.
Telling someone a need isn’t valid is just rude. I say that as an autistic person. But I’m relying on what you’re saying-you used the word “need.” (I generally think of needs as having to do with emotional needs but you might be referring to what I write below.) Even if the other person’s need seems irrational, we autistic people aren’t always rational ourselves. We have needs that aren’t grounded in rationality too. The issue with things being illogical is not exactly the same when it’s not about a need, an in the moment expressed need not related to future expectations. When it’s a request to do something that requires us to go along with it repeatedly or to meet an expectation we don’t understand, it is difficult for us to do that for perhaps many reasons. For me, I have trouble remembering to do something unless it makes logical sense to me (this is perhaps why we are considered stubborn as children). Also, more importantly, I’m also not going to, out of whole cloth, act the way a neurotypical might, and therefore, I am guaranteed to disappoint a partner who points to how other people think and how everyone else would know to do thus and so as a reason I ought to be expected to act that way all on my own in each new situation as if I would think the way they do. I didn’t know I was autistic when my ex husband would criticise my reasoning ability in this way-that is, comparing me to other people. I used to think, “I’m not them.” What I didn’t realise is that he had a neurotypical understanding of people and I had an autistic one. However, you are right that we need to respond with curiosity. I used to do that with my ex husband but even then I often found what he was saying-what he expected from me-was illogical… as if I would know this is how neurotypicals think and behave. Life is dynamic and neurotypicals respond as they do and autistics respond as we do and we can’t just turn on neurotypical thinking to anticipate what a partner might want from us. Even if I understood why my not doing thus and so upset him (given how neurotypicals think), there was no way I was going to be able to anticipate each and every new situation the way a neurotypical person would. So I was going to constantly disappoint him and every other neurotypical partner I had. Of course, none of us knew I was autistic. But I did know what he and other partners were asking of “me” made no sense but made perfect sense to them. And I really did think they were being illogical by expecting me, a separate person, to behave the way they thought other people would behave. I felt like I was constantly being brought up short by not thinking / behaving as they thought others would or would have themselves, and no doubt they felt similarly when I’d ask them to be direct. From their perspective: I mean, didn’t I love them enough to pay attention and pick up on what they wanted? Yes of course that much love, AND I’m not capable of reading just about all indirect communication. I can’t take a hint, and I don’t even know what percentage of time I’m not even aware of a hint being made and a hint is a behavior that neurotypicals often engage in when trying to be more direct. So, if I’m missing that kind of indirect communication, I’m missing a hell of a lot more nuanced stuff that’s normal for neurotypicals. At any rate, my ex husband was very bright and considered himself far more logical than most and once during an argument, he said to me in exasperation, “You’re just TOO logical.” And to be honest, I found that really illogical. As he would explain his logic, it was like watching a computer board fail at various points while being defensively biased about the failures. Really, some of it comes down to how neurotypicals brains work in relationship with other people (that particular kind of NT reasoning)-what seems like wired in expectations that everyone just knows (and psychopaths seem to recognise and can take advantage of)-versus say how their brains work when writing computer code. This difference is applied logic makes some things logical to them that are not at all logical to us. My brother didn’t call me Spock for nothing. I’m disabled and old, and will never be in relationship again-I really wish I could try one more time, but this time having a better understanding that the disconnect was between two neurotypes.
@@BeeWhistler Often when we try to make sense of an interaction with them by checking it out, we’re seen as disingenuous (because like as you said we “obviously” know what went down), and neurotypicals will outright lie that there was any other meaning than what we thought was meant or that there was offence taken at all even when we detect there might have been. Everything is “hunky dory” until they hit us up beside the head with it later-often when it’s too late to fix the miscue and heal the relationship. I continue to share because I truly know no other way. But I check things out less. I figure it almost always turns out badly anyway. If people can’t be direct, they’re going to hit me upside the head regardless of my attempts to be a loving and good person who cares about our interactions. So I leave it to them.
@@BeeWhistler 110%. I have told my partner numerous times, "busy body, busy mind" in an attempt to get her to notice that if I'm participating in an activity I am fully focused on that thing. I keep explaining that I can't just switch focus instantaneously and that it would be helpful to me, and allow me to be more kind to her, if she would say, "Hey, I need your attention. Can you find a place to stop so I can tell you this?" But she won't do it. I've tried dozens of times to ask for this and no matter how often I say it, nothing changes. In fact, she now mocks the saying "busy body, busy mind." So last night I'm sitting in the living room and I very clearly have headphones on and a game controller in my lap. I was listening to an audiobook while killing enemies in a video game. And she just immediately leaped into conversation. What makes it worse is that I get anxiety if I don't pay attention to her, because she gets mad if she feels like I'm not able to shift to what she says. So last night I took the direct route through this and said, "See, you're doing it again! You have to give me time to stop doing what I'm doing!" And instead of being receptive or kind, she told me that it was my "tone" that bothered her. But after literal years of asking for something that someone refuses to respect, how can she expect my tone to be kind? It started out kind and now I'm just angry. She thinks I should just be able to shift my attention immediately because she can. Ugh.
Not just partners and friends, parents, police, teachers, doctors, nurses, councillors, therapists, grandparents, aunts, uncles etc. there is something about my cadence or tone that seems to make it damn near impossible for people to believe me right off the bat. My father didn't believe me that his father sexually assaulted me, my mother didn't believe me that I was being bullied in school, teachers didn't believe me when I told them I was trying my best to understand. By the age of seven I'd learned to keep my gob shut. Seeking acceptance validation and understanding from external sources has been something that has proven itself pointless, fruitless, and at times actively harmful, yes I'm a hermit now. This is my first time learning about Cassandra syndrome.
As soon as you described Cassandra as being cursed to only tell the truth but never be believed, my jaw hit the floor. This is AT THE CENTER OF MY EXPERIENCE! 😭 From being a toddler to in court as an adult, I'm always accused of lying, but I'm terrible at lying! I cannot stand lying or liars!
This so so timely, I was telling a friend how speaking with HCP’s is so difficult as you can not just state how you are feelings or symptoms and regularly not being believed or taken seriously. Masking adds to my part in the mis-communication as it seems body language is ‘read’ more then words. And how I have to add layers ( subtitles) to the conversation so that what is self evident to me is not and I need to do this in order is needed to be heard. Edit:It is a struggle as it feels manufactured and manipulative, but the direct approach has not worked so as my intent is to be heard it is worth the effort. I learned the DBT - DEARMAN technique and it has been useful.
I experience these issues the most with my parents. With them, I try to convey my needs/feelings, and they almost always immediately dismiss them, saying something like "no you DON'T need that, you're being ridiculous, oh come on" or things like that. They don't even want to *try* to understand or accept that I DO have those needs :(
Are they infantilizing you? That's often a problem with parents not recognizing that you're an autonomous entity and have your own feelings and needs and "mother knows best" isn't really true. (It's a silly advice to give, but you should watch the Tangled song "Mother Knows Best" (both the first and reprise) and see if that seems to fit your own experience.)
@@neoqwerty With them, it's more like "you just need to/should adjust and adapt like everyone else" without taking into consideration at all that that is MUCH more difficult for an autistic person :(
@@SamLovesMovies25 I have family like that. It's unfortunate because they think they're preparing me for how hard the real world is. But all they're really teaching me is to avoid people like them and be grateful not everyone is like that.
A lot of problems I face with normal people is all the implicit and nonverbal wants, needs and expectations, all the norms, all the things they assume I would understand. I'd say I suffer regularly from the inverse of cassandra syndrome where people simply aren't willing to communicate clearly their wants and expectations and everything
My husband was autistic and now I know why we had so many disagreements. I wish I would have found your channel sooner, it would have made things so much easier. My husband died March 1st, this year and I was talking to a high school friend who is also Autistic and really opened my eyes to Why David would respond in a certain way. Now I feel sad I get in contact with my friend until after My husband died. I feel so sad that this could have helped us so much. Thank you for your channel.
You have just described the primary problem I've had with others for my entire life. Now I can work on improving my end of this, and that's very empowering. Thank you so much for that. Here's hoping that the neurotypical people in my life will be willing to work on their end too.
My partners reacting to so many things that I was not communicating is so frustrating to me. Because I sense immediately when they’re upset. And so then the weight of translating and interpreting is placed solely on me. I’ve reach the point of meltdown this way. Many times.
This importantly also works the other way. It can be hard for autistic people to understand when you are trying to communicate your needs to them. Asking questions to check their understanding helps.
One time in speaking with my sister I told her I was depressed and she yelled at me “well you don’t sound depressed!” About 20 years of pain feeling like I was not believed by someone I loved most in the world. I just shared this with her. I hope she received it well and we can be more aware for each other now. I need a good cry to let go of the pain now. Wow, thank you for this! 😭😭😭❤️❤️❤️
I always wondered why i had to “be dramatic” and “act” to get people to believe me about my thoughts and feelings. I always thought that it was just because they assumed that I was extremely emotional and would certainly be distraught by any emotion. It makes so much sense for it to be a learned communication bridge for this issue
I think this is the very worse in a work setting. They don’t love and care about you the same as a partner or friend. I can’t begin to tell you the number of times my boss or coworker has rolled their eyes at a comment I have made.
The one I hate is when there's more than one and they look at each other when you say something, like you're freaking blind or something. Oh, man, I could just knock their heads together...
I suppose it’s the sort of work you find yourself in. I always found work settings easier because neurotypicals tend to be more direct at work (not always and not fabulous at it generally but more). Not that I didn’t have issues-I did and most, if not all, were related to the disconnect to between my being autistic and others not being. I knew people found me to be weird, but most didn’t project bad intent onto me the way partners would. It seems while people at work bring their emotional baggage with them, most bring less baggage than they would to a personal relationship. Rolled eyes, people thinking I’m weird, I can deal with; it’s the projection of their own stuff onto me when I fail to act like a neurotypical that typically leads to bad outcomes.
I hate when I am forced to socialize with coworkers, I find no purpose in talking with complete strangers while being ocupied with moving boxes and stuff
@@krsmanjovanovic8607 Are you not interested in getting to know them so that they are no longer complete strangers? Is having casual friendships with your work colleagues not appealing to you? Are you autistic? Is this your own personality trait, or is it common for autistic people not to want to be on friendly terms with their work colleagues? (These are sincere questions. I’m genuinely interested in people’s line of thinking/feelings on this.)
I have adhd so I may have missed this but I have only ever heard Cassandra syndrome used to refer NT women married to men with undiagnosed autism, who arent believed by anyone outside the marriage when they say he seemed like he might be autistic (and all the problems in the relationship that might be caused by not understanding that).
The way I describe communication between autistic and an allistic people is like this: all people communicate using multiple channels (body language, tone of voice, choice of words, eye contact, etc) that each carry some part of the overall message, so when two people are communicating, person A has a message they want to convey, fills each channels with some part of that message, and outputs it to person B. Person B in turn, receives and places each piece in it's channel, recombines all the pieces, and finally (ideally) understands person A's original message. It should be pretty easy to see that if any of those channels get changed or misinterpreted, the end result could change. The meaning of the overall message could be misunderstood. And here's the issue: allistic people have a part of their brain that "fills each channel" and "places each piece in it's channel" _automatically_ , autistic people do not. Now, that encoding/decoding process _can_ be controlled manually by allistic people if they spend the extra energy and mental effort to do so. Autistic people don't have a choice, the part of the brain that handles encoding/decoding isn't there (or doesn't work particularly well), that's _why_ autistic people can communicate with others on the spectrum without much difficulty, but struggle with allistic people. It is entirely possible to _learn_ the skill of encoding/decoding those communication channels, so that the amount of energy and mental effort is lessened, but one must know that they even _need_ to learn that skill in the first place. Otherwise, an autistic person will communicate with very few channels (word choice, word connotation, no emoting, no body posturing), resulting in the other channels being received as "garbage" (awkward pauses) or even worse, as unintended meaning (rudeness, arrogance, disinterest), by an allistic person. Likewise, an allistic person without encode/decode skills may send conflicting or ambiguous information in each channel, resulting in the autistic individual pausing to decode the message, becoming confused by conflicting data, or unsure what the message was even meant to be. TL; DR: people communicate in multiple ways at once. Allistic people can easily send multiple kinds of information at once when communicating, but this can be ambiguous when done automatically. Autistic people must spend energy to send and receive multiple kinds of information at once, this is rarely ambiguous, but can be easily misunderstood when someone expects information in channels of communication that were never filled.
This. I'm very careful with word choice. I do not use the word "jealousy" in the colloquial use to mean "envy"; I only use it to describe fear of losing something. I don't get jealous of people, I envy them. Drek hit the fan when, at the encouragement of a group councilor, I told my polyamorous group that I'd wanted to move in with everyone because of jealousy. Only AFTER they'd decided to kick me out of the house while I was hospitalized for the ensuing mental break was I able to explain that by "jealous" I meant "afraid of being left out of the relationship", not "wanting to have a partner to myself" (needless to say, I don't think I'll be trying poly relationships again)
My issue is that I can very well learn all the ways of communicating and socializing, and I have been for a while now, but I fear that by doing that I'm just masking and I'm not being myself, and that's not a good thing. Nowadays I have no issues with eye contact, well at least not with giving it, I can learn all the ways to communicate effectively but am I not just making someone else out of me? What if a person falls in love with the person who socializes and makes eye contact, only to realize that deep down I am not that person. Masking is a very big issue, but I don't know if I wanna stop. Gotta talk about it with my therapist if I get lucky and find one. Cruel world.
I’m experiencing a LOT of this right now with my mother. After getting out of a 12 year relationship, I had to move back in with her at the age of 41, and I have such a hard time conveying my feelings and emotions in a way she can understand. It’s led to feelings of isolation and shame. I’ve always been better writing things out over verbal communication. I’m hoping I can clearly convey my feelings in this manner going forward, but I’m still not sure how she’ll take it (I’ve written my letter to her, but haven’t let her read it yet). Thank you for this video. It helps me know I’m not alone feeling this way. With any luck, I can get my mother to watch this. Hopefully, she can get some understanding of the challenges I face that I’ve masked over for nearly 4 decades. Again, thank you, Orion!
This video was incredibly enlightening. I have been trying to figure out or explain to people what has been going on in my life basically my entire life. It’s clear that I have autism. I’m actually finally getting a diagnosis at age almost 30. Part of the reason why I have not gotten a diagnosis until now is because I was told there’s no way I could possibly have autism even though there is very clear signs. Now I’m at a point in my life where I cannot proceed and I’ve been stuck for almost 4 years. It’s the only reason why anybody’s taking me serious because I’ve tried to get a job, I’ve tried to be active in life, I’ve tried to be active in my social life. And it just never works. I did not know there was a name for it, but this explains exactly what happened in my life. Even my parents won’t admit that I have autism but it’s so bad that they are getting me help for it finally. I call it the elephant in the room like it’s really obvious to me and I feel like it’s obvious to everybody else. But in reality it’s probably an elephant under a sheet. Like we all know it’s there we’re just trying desperately to hide something that is not hideable
Orion, the 'toast' point you made about your son was like a light bulb moment for me mate. I stand going around and around with my son asking him if he wants....! Gonna be more mindful to allow him processing time.
Once me and my friends stopped playing games, stopped assuming things, and started to ask for clarification when something sounded harsh or confusing, our communication immediately improved drastically. Especially in texts.
Watching this made me wonder: how many versions of this were recorded so you could edit this end product? It’s like trying to read hundreds of micro-expressions…all in mere minutes! Just listening I completely agree with the experience of Cassandra Syndrome. Am dealing with this communication failure at work and my levels of frustrations are triggering meltdowns. Exhausting!
I'm exausted and now fairly isolated from over explaining to people bound and determined to misunderstand me. Mostly narcissists which Love to target me and waste my time brain cells n energy. Thanks for the vid.
I have learned over time that when something is important I get the best results by saying that. This is important. I need to say it so you understand it. I need to know you understand it even if you don't identify with it. It's been remarkably effective in my life. Both in feeling connected, and weeding out people who aren't healthy to be around. If someone isn't willing to try to understand what I'm feeling after being explicit about it... They aren't worth it in most cases.
The fact that most comments on this video are wrongly flipped to how this affects the neurodiverse person in the relationship is the perfect example of how cassandra syndrome can appear in the first place. When i first heard of it my first thought was how i could prevent its terrible effects affecting my neurotypical wife. People seem to have it all wrong.
My ex was on the spectrum and I made a lot of accommodations for him but what really made it go wrong was he had very little empathy towards me, very little emotional intelligence or insight into me. And he straight up REFUSED to meet me halfway on everything. It was all my fault, I needed to take care of myself (but also take care of him). He would not communicate and would run away from stressful conversations. This diagnosis doesn’t make it ok to do any of these things. So it’s important to be clear that a lot of people regardless of diagnosis or not are just not good to be dating. My ex could have developed into a better partner if he bothered to make the slightest effort, but he was exceptionally anti-growth as far as personality.
Some people just are. Don't have to be autistic either. I've encountered a few non-autistic just like that. There's got to be something missing in such people cognitively.
Cassandra syndrome highlights the need for recognition and support for neurotypical partners in neurodiverse relationships. First time I've heard Cassandra is for AS. I recommend you watch excellent UA-cam by Mark Hutten on explanation/advice for NT/ AS
Cassandra Syndrome has ruined my relationships with so many people before I even knew what was happening. I think my husband and I are both on the spectrum and I don't think it's easier because we don't experience it in the same ways. It bites.
I'm autistic, my fiancé has ADHD, so we're both neurodivergent. Which has honestly helped in the fact that we both know we have to be communicative and understanding. Our brains work differently than neurotypical people, but also from each other, and we've learned to understand and accommodate for those differences. For example, we labeled the fridge and pantry recently, as weird as that may sound (it was actually recommended by my therapist). But it helps because with his ADHD he used to just put stuff wherever after grocery shopping because he never remembered where I usually put things. But now he does, and I feel comfortable knowing where things are. It's a small thing, but lots of small things add up and it makes it that much easier.
I've often said over the years that every newly married couple should have a therapist for at least a few years into the marriage to smooth things over that have the potential to become marriage breakers. Would result in fewer divorces.
It sounds like you believe most of the responsibility for understanding is placed clearly upon the non-autistic person. For someone who has been married to an autistic man for 66 years, we have found that we each have the same responsibility to understand and be understood, not just for me to understand him. He has the job of learning to understand how I think and feel as I learn how he thinks and understands me. It is a mutually cooperative endeavor.
The message in this video is interesting and I would say mostly helpful for me because it made me think on a larger scale of the effect on the one who cannot communicate their needs clearly to the NT partner. However as an NT spouse who has experienced what I consider to be a severe and debilitating case of Cassandra Syndrome which I got from the lack of emotional reciprocity, unmeet needs, miscommunication and isolation in my 19 year relationship with an undiagnosed autistic man, I found it downplayed the experience of it in the neurotypical partners in relationships. I feel hurt by this downplaying and by some of the unsympathetic comments by the neurodivergents also. I have empathy and understanding for my spouse's developmental disorder but I also have a lion's share of rage and resentment and those are very real symptoms of Cassandra Syndrome that are extremely difficult to deal with especially when my legitimate needs are still not being met.
This is because the term is usually used on the NT partner and there are lots of resources from that perspective. He is offering the ND experience and showing that it is truely a two-way street. The ND frustration is valid, but the hate is problematic. So are the NT “Cassandra Syndrome support groups” that blame the ND spouse. Too far on one side or the other is dangerous. But his video does not do that. He is simply providing the other side of the coin that is severely lacking.
I am so sorry your needs have been chronically unmet. I am a late diagnosed autistic adhd woman with a probably adhd spouse. It’s hard. The communication between us may not be as poor as it would be between a fully ND/NT dynamic, but our different sensory needs and his untreated adhd are very troublesome. Learning together is helping, but I am beginning to realize that there are certain things he cannot do, and vice versa. So we have to get creative how to meet our needs. It’s not easy, but at least there is hope again. You deserve to love and be loved in return. I hope you and your spouse can find ways to meet each other’s needs, but if not, get out. You both deserve better. ❤❤❤
Why would you be with someone for 19 years who makes you unhappy, when like, you could have just not done that? Is Cassandra syndrome to you when you force a relationship with an incompatible person and get all surprised when it makes you unhappy?
I needed to hear this video! And I am already sharing it with some people (but not the person I experienced this from). This is clearly what caused my marriage to fail. I realized at some point that he was not understanding where I was coming from and how I was feeling. I pleaded for us to go to couples therapy to figure out how to communicate with one another. I thought I was being clear but he would literally ignore me. Later we had a horrible fight where he accused me of faking my depression and this crushed me. He didn't want to go to therapy because from his point of view I was the only one with a problem. I needed this video so much. Thank you for validating me. I did put in the effort I did try. And yes my ex husband should have and could have done a lot better. I'm lucky now its been almost a decade since that split but now I have wonderful relationships where people try and understand and learn.
This honestly sounds more like narcissistic abuse to me. I doubt it had anything to do with your ex-husband simply not understanding where you were coming from/how you were feeling. Narcissists just don't care about anyone except themselves. And they misunderstand you VERY deliberately....it's part of their game.
@@letsrock1729 I would agree that it was not just me being autistic. However narcissist wouldn't be what I'd describe him as. He seemed to completely lack empathy but could act it when socially nessicary. I'd say he is closer to a psychopath but without the crime. He would hold his true thoughts about something to himself until years later when maybe he used it to hurt you. He also lacked manipulation and self centered ness. He was just devoid of empathy and something we talked about years after our separation.
@@brickellvoss7739 Keeping your true thoughts to yourself for years and then using them to hurt someone (when the time is 'right') sounds like manipulative behaviour to me. To be honest, everything you said accurately describes the actions/behaviours of a narcissist. There's a huge overlap between this and psychopathy. Anyway, the main thing is that you are no longer married to him.
@@letsrock1729 I know my mother and father are in cluster B personality disorders for sure. My ex just doesn't fit the criteria for NPD, yes he had maybe 2 traits. But that is far from enough to call him a narcissist. I'm not against the word. I'd freely call my parents narcissist. But my ex just had an empathy problem. No inflated sense of self, no need for admiration, didn't expect special treatment, he didn't exaggerate his achievements in fact he rarely talked about them unless it was relvent, he wasn't insecure, he didn't gaslight me, never caught him in lies. He just lacked empathy and withheld his true beliefs. Yes those acts caused a lot of hurt. But nothing on the level of what my parents did and in less time too... Im not saying what he did was okay but it's far from being able to call him a narcissist.
@@brickellvoss7739 Wow, that's a very interesting situation then, with your ex-husband. And I don't mean that to come across as trivialising what you went through (which I'm not). It's probably fair to say that I currently can't 'disentangle' any of these traits from each other, because I had such a horrific time myself at the hands of a narcissist. So my first port of call is always to suspect narcissism. But you obviously know far more about your ex-husband than I do (because I know literally nothing 😉).
I Have a "bad habit" of always growling and scowling at people who ask me questions and demand an immediate response. I cannot understand words _AS_ they are spoken, like they come through as individual packets of information, then I have to re-assemble them into what was likely said, then I have to try to process that information and make a determination of what I am supposed to do... And then, AND THEN... when I am able to follow the conversation, people constantly put these empty spaces in their speech so I will try to help them find that word they stumbled with or re-assure them that I am keeping up and get yelled at that I always dominate the conversation and can't just listen. Its like the squirrel in my brain that does the whole communication thing is either sleeping in or snorting cocaine.
This is honestly good advice to all people in all situations, autistic or not. Be patient and don't assume things too quick. Say what you mean and communicate clearly. I think a lot of the problems in this world wouldn't exist if people just did this.
Wow, thank you Orion! Cassandra syndrome really goes both ways in a neurodiverse relationship, doesn't it? I'm really in a place of needing to believe that my autistic husband really cares for me even though it's hard for him to show it. In this situation, he's the Cassandra.
This is mostly the case. They are the Cassandra's. A relationship with them is a one way street....with only them driving in their preferred lane and vehicle, you having no choice where to go. Super exhausting with them.justifying being overly self centered due to their "disability". I am super tired listening to "Understand the autistic" videos, where are the "How to understand a Neurotypical person?" Video to teach the the autistic to be less self centered and more compassionate and endearing towards others needs. Easiest way to be understood, is to understand another, better yourself and show compassion. This is what they lack most. They almost have an inate inability to understand any other point of view other than what themself is having. If not the same, it must be wrong and the other person just needs to be convinced of it, at ALL cost...after a while you pretend to agree just to get a way out of the conversation...enough to make any sane person go jump of a bridge...😢 even the presenters of these videos are super self centered and selfish and expect nothing of the austistic person, juat the neuro typical....this is sad and only enforce the idea of everybody needs to compensare for the autistic person and they themselves do not need to grow or learn one bit how to also better accomodate those around them.
Great video! All of this perfectly applies to work relationships (and any other types of relationships), too! I've figured out that it's super helpful to ask colleagues to always be extra clear when they want to convey something - even in those cases where it might feel rude to them to some degree. I explicitly asked them to do it anyways because it'll very likely be helpful instead of hurtful. I on my side will always give them the benefit of the doubt in case it actually feels rude to me. At least when the approach seems to have the goal of making things better and not a personal attack of some sort. I told them it will help us all figure out any troubles so we can then try to fix them, which should be the goal. That goes for business matters as well as personal topics. Also, "tell me, then I'll know it" has generally helped a lot. Side note: I'm not diagnosed with autism. It only occurred to me quite recently that I might quite possibly be on the spectrum but I currently don't have the time to have it figured out. But I made it through 40+ years now and I've seemingly found some helpful routes by myself (and for whatever my own "status" actually is) to bounce off less.
I usually mask and focus on the other person and avoid my own needs completely. Then, over time it leads to burnout and isolation. Not wanting to talk at all and silence feeling misunderstood & turmoil. Often leading to break ups and confusion for my partner because all the focus and love was on them with pure bliss then all of a sudden I disconnect and break up when I’m burned out. I’m a single mom with three kids. My son is on the spectrum and he verbally stims which happens to be a huge trigger for me. He is also verbally aggressive and never stops talking. Therefore, when I’m burned out with him I feel even more isolated from any outside relationship and needs days to isolate just to get back to myself.
"Bears Vs Berries" is a hilarious dialogue that I witnessed between 2 friends who were able to converse at length without knowing that the subject they were talking about was different. Great video to help family who may be triggered by discussing these topics without being involved in the explanation! This has been a challenge for me as a nurse and husband because many people feel dejected by failed communication and it is difficult to move past this communication issue when it happens, autistic or not.
NTs: How was I supposed to know that? Me: Because I told you in clear, unambiguous language. Twice. NTs: Yeah, but how was I supposed to know that that's what you meant by that? Me: b e c a u s e t h a t ' s w h a t t h o s e w o r d s m e a n NTs: Okay, but I just dreamed up a whole different angle you might have been playing and decided that that was what you must have been getting at, despite it not matching the literal meaning of your words or your numerous attempts to clarify, because it validated my insecurities and/or prejudices. Me: ... The DSM-5: Autism is marked by communication deficits.
This comment has me SCREAMING laughing. I’ve been through this soo many times, it feels like I’m speaking an ENTIRELY different dialect of English most times. I really don’t get how that’s considered “Normal” 😂
Hello, thanx for the great video! The approach is a bit different from what I read online about this Cassandra phenomenon, but for me it gets explained better here. Many other sources claim the autist is the one without the feelings, but that there is treatment to make them better... My personal experience with the Cassandra curse: Two years ago I ended my 7yr relationship with a female covert narcissist doctor with a secret sex addiction. That was bad enough experience by itself, but what happened afterwards really startled me. Almost no one would believe me, while I knew I was telling the truth and she obviously was lying and manipulating everyone around me. Even when I showed some good evidence my family and most friends still wouldnt believe me. Worse, they chose to do to keep the family- or their own image intact, while I was suffering for some or any help. I had to wait 1,5 years to speak to a psychologist; I needed someone to help me explain what was happening, but that would go on to be the next traumatic event :p I was diagnosed with ADD as a young adolescent and after a life with narcissistic parents, sister and a girlfriend I got diagnosed with CPTSD. Because of this diagnosis I had to move to a different psychologist, but they wouldnt believe me without even looking at some of the evidence I recovered. They tried to label me as paranoid and psychotic and was denied proper treatment unless I would start taking antipsychotics. How about that? Later I connected well with someone with a autism diagnosis, and It made me think. Am I autistic too? After some honest introspection and taking some tests it was quite clear to me. But every psychologist I met completely missed this and never even uttered the word. This autism realisation is now a week old, but very educational already.
I am so thankful that not only did I randomly happen to come across this video of yours (having watched only one other video of yours, to date), but I am also extremely thankful to you for taking your time to create this video; this one may be game changing, not only for myself but also my (now) wife and many other people that can relate to this syndrome in their relationships.
I put my autistic best friend through Cassandra Syndrome last year when we were discussing living together. He tried to tell me what he's looking for in a living space (close to public transit, wheelchair accessibility) and I never applied his needs in my searches, and he had no choice but to move on with plans without me. I realize that sometimes information needs to be drilled into my head in order for me to get the hint. Since it'd be nice to not dump that responsibility on others, what I'm trying first is to rerun conversations in my head, maybe even mutter them out loud, in order for me to absorb what other people are trying to tell me.
I am appreciating having a name for this, and more than that. I have often giving up trying to make people understand---being understood feels like a bridge too far. And pain that is chronic, especially emotional pain obscures my reporting of physical pain and it has come out in weird ways, like the time after a blood test, when my family doctor said to me, "You have arthritis, it shows up in your bloodwork...you've never complained of it..." and I told him, "it comes and then it goes, and because I know it will go away again, I just wait for it to go away and then I forget it until it comes back." I find I am often only really exhausted by the things I can't control. The only way I can explain it to somebody is to say, "look, that's the least of my problems!"
Of all term choices, why 'double empathy'? Nothing about that implies the most important aspect of the intended meaning, which is a disconnection or disparity in personal experience and perspective. Anyway, everyone's relating their own experiences so here's mine: I've been facing these 'Cassandra' scenarios all my life, either with people not being able to meet my need for more information or others bullying their way through my comfort zones, so I just grew up and had all my nurtured instincts forcibly changed to work around other people and tolerate them, eventually also adding on the highly-intensive task of 'managing' other people however I can in a way that doesn't breach my sense of ethics. And of course it eventually caused me to crash and burn. So many people, including professionals in the mental health industry, that I had talked to had barely anything useful for me. All the relatives that tried 'talking sense' into me, giving advice or pushing me to do this or that just didn't understand. Wasn't until I was 30 that I even got diagnosed with autism, and even then some medical professional had some fairly harmful things to say to me. I kid you not, as someone with noise sensitivity issues, I was told by a hospital psych that what I needed to not be f'ed up by noise issues was unrealistic and I should just get used to it. -- As I've grown older I've found more people who are more sensitive to other people's issues, but in general it's still my default instinct to treat other people as unreliable and of limited positive sociability, and the only viable way to have my sense of comfort break even is to forcibly exert control to reduce the chance of bad interactions. This leaves me closed off and distant to most people, even if I smile and am exceedingly polite. It takes me way too long to trust. In my relationships I have to clearly and firmly state my boundaries, and follow through with whatever negative response is necessary to reinforce boundary breaches. But I've found that there's typically a correlate with IQ and social compatibility, likely because it's a learning exercise and requires more logical processing than emotional thinkers are willing or able to casually employ. And as such some people are just impossible so I keep them as closed off as possible to anything in my life that they might harm.
thank you. i just had an epiphany about my life. you are defintely my mentor. im going back to a mutual need for non verbal with my ..person i love. it was working before, and then i figured i should act like evryone else. but he is like us, and i dont know where i got the idea to be anyone else.
As a NT married to an NT, emotional sharing is not the same as asking for change. If I feel overwhelmed, anxious, sad or whatnot, that can be shared with my spouse, but I cannot expect him to change his behaviors based on my emotional perceptions. Where people get into to trouble is when they believe emotional sharing=change in their partner, OR that expectations are the same as emotions Emotions are a physical sensation that our brains interpret as either pleasurable or uncomfortable. There can be an association between other people’s behaviors and our emotional discomfort, but it’s really important to learn to self regulate and process our emotions before asking for our partners or friends to change. I can’t say with confidence that ALL people struggle to be heard if what “hearing” means is change in another person.
Another important example of how this happens is that NT people pay way more attention to body language and tone of voice than autistic people do. So, an autistic person might say "I am in pain right now" in a flat, neutral voice without expression, but they get ignored because they don't "look" like they're in pain because they aren't screaming or writhing around. This can be especially damaging for children who might go to a parent for help but get ignored because they "look fine."
I rather severely hurt myself on a trampoline when I was younger and I was actually writhing around screaming at the top of my lungs and my mother who hadn’t seen me yet thought I was just overreacting??? So she took longer to come and help me? SHE ADMITTED IT. TO MY FACE? It honestly shocked me. Not to dismiss what you’re saying at all. I agree that that’s very true.
That... explains a lot, for me (Aspergers). When I was 10 or so, I broke my arm. Fell off a piece of playground equipment and it snapped clean in half-- but it took a WEEK before anyone believed I was even hurt. The camp nurse told my parents I was fine, and they believed her until they eventually noticed me wincing when the car hit a bump.
@@SmokestalDude420 I have diagnosed BPD and possibly undiagnosed ADHD or autism. I'm apparently never reacting appropriately.
Even worse when it happens at work...
[me walking in calmly from the garage to inform my wife that I would like her to please drive me to the emergency room because I can't drive myself, having just drilled a hole most of the way through my hand]
I was passionately into philosophy as a kid. One day in school I told a girl I used to hang out with about Schrödinger, and when I stopped she said "Emma. I stopped listening and I just don't care. I don't understand a word of what you just said." I decided then I'd stop trying to tell people about what I was reading. But that resolve made me feel a bit lonely, so I looked a little extra silent one day, and my mom asked me what's up. I said "I can't find anyone to talk about philosophy with", and she responded I should try to cultivate more normal interests, something that the other kids liked too. I continued to hang out with the girl, and we sometimes watched The Vampire Diaries at her place which I found confusing and boring, I didn't really get it at all. I was slow on social things. Then one day she asked me if we were friends, and I thought for a minute and answered thoughtfully "No, I think we're acquaintances". Then she stormed off crying. After that I worried that I was a bad friend, and that I ought to change myself to get friends. But I kept finding that painful and awkward, so largely I just continued to engage in my interests alone.
I think you are cool.😊
I mean she literally said she didn't care about what you were trying to talk to her about, so I can't imagine why she'd care that much.
Sorry but not sorry, but that girl is a giant *wuss.*
That was more then 10 years ago, and I've matured a lot since then. Obviously it influenced me a lot for a while, and I got the mistaken idea that *no one* had niche interests. That's obviously false. I learned instead - just like everybody else has to learn - that there's a balance to navigate from when you're meeting someone for the first time, until you know someone well: The rules change as you get to know each other. You know what interests you share and which you don't. Sometimes you'll befriend someone you share interests with, and other times you don't share interests but you just like each other anyway. Most of my friends I don't share interests with and thats ok. I try not to rant to the ones that don't share the interests, because that's not fun for either of us. I'm still in the habit of defaulting to digging into interests on my own, because it's easier. But it doesn't mean I never share them. Mostly I don't even try, but sometimes, if it seems relevant, I'll mention my interest in the conversation, and mostly it's like they don't really get it, or they do get it but they just dont know what to say, and thats ok. And sometimes they'll get it and agree, and that's nice obviously. But it's also sorta meh. The only amazing thing is when they have something interesting to comment. When that happens, it's a wonderful learning experience and feels like bonding in a different way than when you're just echochambering (agreeing). But even then, it's over quickly. I'll often only have a few comments or questions in return before I say something like "wow, i can see that, that's a new perspective, I learned something new, how exciting, thank you" and then I'll feel satisfied for days or weeks, while - once again - returning to engage in the interest alone. And that's ok. And I don't think that experience varies that much between autists and neurotypicals tbh. Even neurotypicals change their behavior according to who they're with.
@@emmathearcticurbanist I kind of wish we'd somehow been in the same town/city because I was also a nerd with niche interests (paleontology, geology, nuclear science, and science-fiction), but I would have LOVED to listen to you talk about Shroedinger. (it's 50/50 if I can sit down and focus to read something but I'm VERY good at listening to people talk about things they're passionate about even if I don't have a personal interest in it at that time. I might even have "caught" an interest in philosophy from you like I caught one in history from my teacher, hahaha)
I'm lucky that my dad and I both seem to have the same thing that's different with our brains, so I had him and his own friend group as conversation partners. It's made some of my social skills suffer, but... I wish I could travel back in time and let you borrow my dad, I bet he would have been thrilled to talk philosophy with you.
I wish you the best in occasionally meeting other philosophy nerds to have fun conversations with!
I've found that instead of dismissing, I found that for the neurodivergent people in my life the phrase "Help me understand." has been a godsend. It allows for a deeper conversation, communicates my intention to listen and my desire to know more, and acknowledges the gap in my own experience all in one straightforward request.
Ally! Thank you.
As a ND person I think I'd start to cry of relief if this came from my mamma.
I tried that a few times. Still doesn't work because people start gaslighting me once they realise I don't agree with their logic lacking arguments :/
I managed to "invent" this phrase and approach by complete accident. My ND partner has a lot of trouble conveying his thoughts and ideas initially, partially as a lack of experience in communication, partially as a trauma response (hiding emotions/feelings from an abusige parent), and partially as a person on the spectrum.
I have found it best to try and capture a phrase and/or idea in his responses he seems to be stuck on and/or repeating, and I'll ask about that specifically in an effort to understanding where he's coming from.
I‘m autistic, my husband allistic. he recently realized that asking me what I want to drink for breakfast will lead to me freezing up due to the sheer amount of possibilities. so being a smart man he started breaking the options down into discreet categories like a flowchart: do you want something to drink? - hot or cold? - tea or coffee? also giving me time to decide in between the questions. we‘re adapting that in other situations as well.
I would also like to bring up that our nt partners might end up feeling like cassandra at times too, if we fail to pick up on the cues that work well with nt people. I like the idea of meeting each other half-way - both people need to make an effort to make any relationship work. 😊
I really wish people listed options in that way. It's so hard to make decisions about broad topics, especially when I don't know what I want or where it'll lead. "Orange juice? Will it go with the food? Is it too sweet, will it feel bad in my throat? Sparkling water? Do we have any, will it be troublesome to ask for that? Tea? Will it make me too warm, which tea would it even be? Black tea gets bitter fast so should I make it myself if it's black tea? I don't think we have enough green tea, they like green tea so I don't wanna waste it... No wait, do I even want tea?" It never ends.
This is brilliant! I've often tried to explain people that my thought process is from the abstract to the specific rather than the other way around but I could not find a solution to bridge that. In many cases this may be what I have been looking for. Thank you so much for sharing! ❤️
Never thought about using flowcharts in cases of decision paralysis, but it seems like a very useful tool. Thank you for sharing your insights
No one in my house ever makes me a cup of tea so I don’t have that problem 😅
@@Gnomereginam By all means, have the green tea! I'll just get some more later.
I can assure you it won't be "wasted" on you.
And don't think sparkly water would be too troublesome. I don't believe for a second you're not worth making a little sparkly water for:)
That said I actually do need to get some new tea lmao
"Cassandra can only speak the truth but never be believed"
oh, she like me fr
That’s my entire life. I’m nearly always right, and am almost always resented for that. Once, after objectively crushing my aunt in one of our many debates, she annoyedly proclaimed ‘you always have to be right’. I responded by saying ‘no, I simply make sure that I am before I open my mouth’. This obviously annoyed her further.
It’s not my fault that most NT’s are either batshit stupid, or just too intellectually lazy to get anything right. Which is one of many, many reason I feel so much contempt for them.
And really, we should call them what they are……. Neuro Inferior.
A lot of the time I wonder why I even bother explaining things to people, when I take time to explain it in great deal, and then they behave as if I never said anything. It gives me the impression that the average person doesn't care, so I will just save all of the trouble and isolate myself. And then there are times when people ask me about something, and I am suddenly unable to communicate all of the details. It's almost as if my brain suddenly forgets what I wanted to say; but eventually I am able to find the words that I wanted to say, and then make sure to tell them what I need to say. But the funny thing is that, it doesn't even matter, because explaining everything doesn't seem to make a difference most of the time. And even though I am much more honest than the average person (I notice that an awful lot of people like to tell fibs to get what they want, and white lies), I still get treated like I am a liar, and that I am untrustworthy. And once I have time to process a situation, and figured out what I want to say (this usually happens during alone time), I will communicate my thoughts and feelings as clear as I possibly can, and then end up being misunderstood, where I ask myself, "How could I possibly have been more clear about it?" And people will even act like they understand (especially when they don't think that I am autistic, and therefore assume that I think the same way, and whatever I said gets perceived through THEIR lens, not mine. When they assume that we perceive something the same way, and they think that we're on the same page, then they continue writing their version of the story in their mind, and expect me to behave a certain way in the future. They expect me to do the things that THEY would do in a situation, and then they end up being totally perplexed when I don't end up dealing with things in a particular manner). I feel like, when people question my autism, and assume that I think like a neurotypical, it causes them not to try very hard to understand everything I am saying. It's as if they are telling themselves, "Oh, she probably just means this or that" and then create a particular story in their head, where they decide to stop listening to me explain all of my points of view. Why? Because it's literally just easier not to try and understand something that's complicated, and just come up with your own version. It's as if they never even heard me, where it's almost like talking to a wall. And the gaslighting that occurs afterwards, just WHY?!! I put in a great effort to understand where a neurotypical person is coming from, and ask many questions about how they see things, and I wish that they would do the same for me. It makes a person feel alone and lonely, even when they surround themselves with people (including family members). You give me enough alone time to think, and I can write down what it was that wanted to say (and watching videos like this gives me another way to explain what it is that I want to say; it gives me more words to explain it!). I tell ya, I believe that it's videos like these that save my sanity.
That's my life to a T as well. It's utterly frustrating!!!
@@hannahk.summerville5908 Well thank God we have this little community here on UA-cam, so that we don't feel like the only one in the world who has these struggles 🙂.
Wow! I can relate!
Yes, I’m pretty much done with allistics and ableism, it’s just not worth it.
I really wish I could find someone who understands this in real life. I’m completely isolated now.
Before my diagnosis and THIS video, I remember being like "I'm at least good at trying to communicate(in the romantic relationship)" but I was hurt and confused when the response was "You're shit at communication"
i grew the confidence to believe it when i say "no, you're shit at listening."
them - "Oh i wish we had a recording so you could hear yourself"
me- "omg, i can't believe you just found the sliver lining to big brother surveillance-state. I'm more than happy, I also know I can't be the one to press 'record'."
Have them repeat what you said, keep doing it until they get it right. If they really care about you, they'll WANT to understand you. Make you happy, meet your needs, make you feel safe etc.
The other person is just shit at communicating. They just don't know it cuz they are too busy thinking and doing what they want and not actually communicating. They just think they are.
Wait! What do you mean you can't read my mind?! Isn't everyone telepathic? Ha! Just kidding! I'm definitely not always the best communicator; especially in real time conversation. In writing, I am much better generally speaking because I have time to think of what I want to say and how I want to say it.
"You're not speaking emotionally+irrationally enough" is what I keep hearing. I apparently need to be more reactionary regardless of anything that makes sense, because neurots follow strength over reason.
Thank you for always re-framing that its not entirely the autistic persons fault. First time I've heard of cassandra syndrome and first time I've been able to better understand the double empathy problem, and it explains a lot for me. I incorrectly think I'm being clear and understanding what I'm being told; NT doesn't and therefore just moves on, annoyed with me because they think I am being deliberately obtuse, which I am unaware of and feel invalidated and frustrated. Repeat ad nauseum. No wonder my professional, and personal, life is a mess.
I once had someone scream at me (before my diagnosis): “You can’t be THAT obtuse!” I screamed back “I AM that obtuse!” (And I almost never scream but wow was it weird to be told something wasn’t true about me that I knew to be true about me from years of experience.)
I had a similar situation like that in high school with one of my teachers when attempting to explain my Hang-Ups with creative writing she would always brushed off as being the losers limp
Same! Often I feel like that with social things where it feels like this is something everyone knows, just for an example say a midnight text asking you up is likely a hook up kind of thing. I'd more likely just assume they are a night owl like me or can't sleep and need to talk or something. Or if I'm sending the midnight text I'm hoping they'll be up so I can talk.
Other times I kinda feel that way is when I get what seems like an out of proportion and not what expected response from someone. I'm trying to think of an example but of course nothing is coming to mind, but I end up feeling like whatever handle I had on being able not predict but have a good idea of what another person is going to was completely wrong. Or in the same vein, I can try to do something just like someone else but get the opposite reaction. So much of social interaction, especially in person, just feels like everyone knows the "rules" but me and even when I try to follow them I do it wrong.
@@Quirkyalonester yeah another aspect of course is those pesky double standards 4 things that are appropriate for some people seemingly aren't appropriate for others simply because of an arbitrary trait that isn't even related
Had a disciplinary letter in my personnel file one that said that one of the expectations was that I should respond to written communication according to their intent rather than literal meaning. They said that having an interpreter would not be a reasonable accommodation for disability. I had to be reassured by my therapist that my inability to meet that expectation wasn't because I'm autistic, but because I'm only human. They'd added literal telepathy to my job requirements
Every time I watch your videos, my stress levels drop right down. You explain things in a way that I understand but cannot express in this intolerant, impatient, non-understanding world. I can struggle with verbalising my thoughts and feelings - half the time, I don't even understand what they even are myself! On the occasions when I do verbalise my thoughts and feelings, I get it "wrong" and am playing "the game" all wrong, leading to ostracisation and isolation - even from other NDs.
Me too!!!
Same
YES!!!!! " You have to communicate this way or I'll ignore you" I literally can't. I can't just start talking to strangers. So they dismiss my communication because it doesn't " fit".
That moment when a neurotypical person assumes you're lying to them because no one is that honest. No one just SAYS the thing.
And now they're angry with you because you "blatantly lied" to them and you're standing their angry and confused as to why you're being called a liar when you told the truth. Like, I know the meaning of the words coming out of my mouth... they directly and literally describe your honest response... Like, how do you rephrase to make something clearer than the direct and literal words you mean?!?
THIS! Sums up years of my life!
NT or not, that's just fucking stupid. Whoever you're talking about needs to learn to meet people at their level and acknowledge that "This individual I'm taking to is just more honest and verbose than most people I've met". Pretty simple
I suffer all things you talk about in your videos.
Metaphors and similes help me. When I feel too angry and like I’m going to blurt out things that can really offend someone I inform I need some time alone and say I will come back once I’ve cooled down. Just like us NT can get triggered so sometimes it’s not always about us, the tone, word choice we use or our facial expressions when we communicate.
🙌
Orion, from a mum who has spent most of my son's life trying to explain his actions and reactions with little reciprocal understanding, your video's are a godsend. You articulate what I want to tell people in a way that promotes understanding, they get sent to friends and relatives. Thank you. Also, amazingly, my son responds positively to your discussions and actively seeks them out. He has always been resistant to "explanatory" information, not sure why but you obviously expressed his experience of the world far better than anyone else could, for that I am infinitly grateful. Keep up the good work
I’m so grateful to hear that!
@Orion Kelly - That Autistic Guy you really are helping people, be really proud!
Well, as an autistic daughter, I can promise it makes a world of difference to feel validated. My mother has come around to me being autistic. Does she understand perfectly? No. But I don't understand her perfectly either. What makes a difference is knowing that she's trying and vice versa. After years of people not trying at all, and accepting that I'm the one that always has to change to fit into the neurotypical world, it's just nice to feel like someone is putting the same energy into our relationship. It's hard work, but it's worth it.
@@KRAKENKRYPTED awesome screen name. I think that I'm autistic and maybe my son is too. Since learning about autism I'm trying to be more understanding to both of my kids and also myself. My son freaks out when I try to put his winter jacket on if his sleeve comes up, he will just stand there and be yelling. It was a cause of frustration but now I realize that I have to be patient and just help in getting it the way that he will be comfortable
@@heedmydemands, if it makes you feel better, I used to scream when my mom would blow dry my hair as a child. So, one day, a neighbor called Child Protective Services and my mother had to take me to their offices for an interview. I was probably 4 or 5 years old. While there, the guy in charge of the case asked if I wanted anything to drink and kindly gave me some orange juice. And like any child would, I promptly spilled it all over myself and threw an absolute fit. But, the interviewer laughed to my mother and said he could see I was a handful and promptly let us go home. I would never behave this way as an adult, which is important to keep in mind! We grow up and change and then new things bother us for totally different reasons. And we get better at managing our meltdowns even if we don't stop having them completely. And in all likelihood, one day your kid won't remember the jacket issues and it'll be a story you tell and bond over. Just know it gets easier when we learn how to communicate a bit better!
For me, expressing my feelings once I knew them was rarely a challenge, though I likely rarely expressed empathy in the ways neurotypicals expected. A partner once said I was a puzzle wrapped in an enigma, which I thought was the strangest take on me (said after 15 years of relationship) because I always said what I meant and meant what I said.
I’ve been in three long term relationship with neurotypicals and none of us knew I was autistic. I think they felt the Cassandra syndrome because (1) I couldn’t read between the lines and thought, when I realised this was going on in a particular situation, that they wanted me to read their minds and (2) they just wanted me to interact with them as other neurotypicals do-that is, understand their indirect way of communicating. I knew people were indirect, I just didn’t understand how indirect they actually are because I’m clueless as to how much of this kind of communication goes over my head. I just thought I was super direct and came up with all sorts of reasons (likely correct) of why neurotypicals in general are indirect.
I don’t think these partners realised that I really couldn’t read their indirect communications, and so my failure to read, to even be aware of the fact that we weren’t having the conversation they thought we were having, meant they interpreted my behavior according to how they’d interpret another neurotypical. E.g., I was ignoring them, being self-centered, purposefully misunderstanding them, being difficult (yeah, I thought they were being difficult too by not directly sharing their thoughts, feelings, and needs). It felt like people were projecting their insecurities onto me.
Neurotypicals are often indirect because they're very sensitive when it comes to image, pride, ego, and the like. They're more emotion-based. Their complexity is in emotion and social rules. Neurodivergents like autistic people are not as sensitive when it comes to appearance and standing, they're much more about function than form. You probably already know all of this at least subconsciously, but I've found it hard to describe until recently. I never understood neurots' sense of importance with image and standing in the social dynamic, I just considered it mockworthy until I realized most of culture and everything upward and outward is built heavily on those things. Functional things like cars and phones etc are just considered disposable tools by the social egoists, whom don't even realize they're being maximally egotistical. Being ostracized cruelly for not conforming to this overblown egoism has been quite damaging to my self-esteem, but it's always been something I've had to manually learn through, while the benefit of that manual learning is being able to navigate/manipulate the egoists into a better outcome than they'd ever allow themselves to even consider.
@@SynthwaveDuck wtf r u talking about
I think there’s a big difference between communicating something and not being heard/listened to, vs not being believed. The latter means they heard you but they think you are lying. So incredibly isolating.
Also, poor communication skills (neurodivergent or normie) is not the same as Cassandra syndrome.
I am neurotypical and dating a guy with autism and I gotta say, I absolutely love his direct, open and honest style of communication and I kinda adapted it
it makes things so much easier and makes at least me feel even more emotionally connected and it builds trust on both sides
it felt like a breath of fresh air after my ex boyfriend who bottled up his emotions until problems piled up too high
How lovely to read this ❤
My wife felt the same while dating; no lies, no BS, no jealousy. But that was before diagnosis. After years of marriage, she pined for more authentic connection and complained my lack of jealousy came off as uncaring. Point being: don’t expect us to change one day and become something we aren’t made to be.
I guess I am lucky then because I have the most authentic connection with my partner that I ever had with anyone and I thrive off of being super loyal, so I dont give him reason to be jealous and dont expect him to be
but ofc there's always little imperfections where one might hope for change but I'm aware that I'll have to see how it goes and shouldn't push too hard, if he cant do it, that's that and we'll have to figure out how to handle it
perhaps your ex was also Neurodivergent, living with too much shame to live authentically, and was masking until external demand exceeded his capacity to cope internally.
@@M2Mil7er no, I think it was more of a toxic masculine thing of feeling like he cant admit to his problems and has to deal with everything himself
Getting gaslighted over it too. I've found that to be a big part of it thousands of times, being nearly 60 years old. Six decades of life, it's been the worst part of a century
Yeah, that's the worst. I've definitely had cases where people get frustrated at me and I can't even tell if they're truly unreasonably expecting me to read their mind or if they're mad because "a normal person would've understood". Though I've been told even if that were the case, getting mad about it isn't reasonable because it isn't fair to hold me to a normal person's standards. Not like that always sinks in after so many years of internalized self-loathing.
Also this.
@@jaschabull2365 it isn't even about "normal" person or not. Sometimes people are just acting like a dick. You can be "normal" and also be flat out wrong and evil with your ignorance.
Medical gaslighting is the literal absolute WORST
Gaslighting . . . Yep! My wife with whom I have been separated for 1.5 years now did that a lot. Rather than attempt to defuse a situation, she would add fuel to the fire and then wonder why my temper erupts like a volcano. She's a good person and we can talk for an hour or so every couple of weeks on the phone without a problem. However, this gaslighting thing is one of the many reasons I decided to leave. We're simply not compatible with one another.
If you think Cassandra Syndrome is bad between a NT person and an ASD person, you should see what it's like between two late-diagnosed ASD people who aren't on _exactly_ the same wavelength and who are packed full of decades of self-developed coping mechanisms.
This is me and my partner! Whew.
This sounds like my past relationship. She told me being an undiagnosed asd and during those couple of years I seriously considered and convinced myself on being one myself (because it explained a lot about my past and current life). We both kind of accused each other for lying several times. It was a confusing mess.
@@deusexaethera
Any advice for a similar couple one year later?
Oh so true! Me and my dear husband are like tthis
The part where you talk about processing speed! ADHD (suspect AuDHD) here… and I find it physically distressing to have patience for someone else to process sometimes, and often have to stim during the waiting time (which of course then looks like I’m being impatient anyway!). Assuming that’s the ADHD component. This is definitely a challenge in my relationships 😅
As AuDHD myself, I fully relate to this. There are some things that take me a long while to process but that has more to do with people saying things to me that are hurtful and make no sense to me. I often can’t access my internal reaction in these situations to bring the thing itself into my fully conscious mind for processing. Likely a trauma response tied to our ability to disassociate more easily.
I’ve had really good conversations with my partner when I am so tired that I doze off between his answers… finally he gets all the processing time he needs!
here! here!
My boyfriend and I definitely have issues with Cassandra syndrome. It's weird because I really feel like he's also on the spectrum but somehow we still seem to miss each other's meaning and what the other really needs..... it's very frustrating but the connection we share is well worth any odd hits and misses in our communication. Thankfully we are working on understanding our autism differences and allowing this to be a stronger more respectful relationship.
What frustrates and even infuriates me is that most of the literature on Casandra syndrome/phenomenon demonizes the autistic person, it puts all of the 'blame' on us.
yes exactly! I tried to do more research on Cassandra syndrome and the entire first page of google is links to websites demonizing autistic people. in a sense it's demonstrative of Cassandra syndrome if you think about it
Autism isn't your fault, but it is your responsibility.
I mean it's useful to know you aren't communicating something clearly when you think you are, but you are correct that that's not the whole story.
That is really sad to hear, actually.
Oddly, when first heard Orion describe what Cassandra Syndrome was, I automatically assumed it was NT people not understanding autistic people. Maybe I was just thinking about my parents, but that situation would probably occur a lot as well, wouldn't it?
@@ChaoticNeutralMatt your comment Literwlly proves the point of the original commenter. Sometimes NTs are the ones who are communicating clearly. It’s not always on us autists
It was my understanding that Cassandra Syndrome refers to the NT partner not the partner who is ND. It is what develops when he/she tries to describe what living within a neurodiverse relationship is like to anyone outside the couple. She/he is attempting to share her/his experience of living with an autistic partner and no one understands, usually because the ND partner is very good at masking.
That is what Cassandra syndrome refers to. This video and most of the commenters seem to have it backwards, which I find to be frustrating. For years I would try to describe my marriage to others, and they seemed to think my husband was just being a typical man (or, feminists insisted he was being a chauvinist.) Their responses did not ring true and left me feeling isolated. No matter what I did, I could not reach him across the divide, and I couldn't find anyone who understood my isolation. When I finally stumbled on Cassandra Syndrome and read that others (usually a NT woman married to an austistic man) had experienced something similar, it was a big relief.
Now I understand that the autistic people watching this video are having a bit of similar feeling of relief in hearing someone else describe their situation. But that situation is not Cassandra Syndrome; it is the autism.
@@susanlang9261The video and comments slightly bemused me too. My first thought on Cassandra Syndrome was how I could prevent this ever happening to my own neurotypical wife.
Same! This is the common explanation of Cassandra syndrome all around the web! My partner suggested I check it out (me as the potentially Aut one). The explanation here being boiled down to a communication issue is genius. That's what it is at the end of the day.
As the assumed Autistic person in my relationship, reading all the other info about this and the symptoms had me in tears because it was describing perfectly how I, the autistic person had been feeling. But I couldn't understand how it felt so applicable to me when I can see very clearly how someone with Autism would make their partner feel this way.
Stumbling onto this video made so much sense. Of COURSE both partners are going to feel unheard, misunderstood even neglected because the mode of communication between the two people is different.
This video is absolutely ruining the validity of what goes on for NT partners in these relationships. - and once again the autism community is demanding that other people bend to their needs and take a whole entire syndrome that belongs to victims of abusive situations for themselves.
Yes, this is completely backwards. Cassandra Syndrome IS what happens to the NT spouse - at least that was the origin of it. Perhaps it's been hijacked by the ND crowd, but I haven't seen that anywhere else other than here.
This is another one of those "why did I only get diagnosed 8 months ago and spend my life in misery?" moments. You explain things so well. This explains why so many of my relationships, romantic, platonic and family, have been so challenging. I wish I could go back to my childhood and show my mum your channel. Sadly at 37, it's a bit too late.
Join the club. People suspected but I didn't think I was like the few rambling low functioning autistics I knew that were at the full "special needs" level. My sister who has a psychology degree (proper one, 4 years of college with honours) bought the subject up again last week. It appears that I have 3 or 4 aspects of very high functioning autism. Finally my social difficulties that I could never get past are getting understood. I'm one of these people that can master almost ANYTHING from plumbing to sewing to electrical and basic electronics right down to difficult to propagate and grow cacti. And I could never understand why I couldn't seem to master some social things or would be left out in social groups like churches. I would force myself into social situations again and again like "I'll learn this crap if it kills me trying". Never understanding why it was so hard when I could master other things in a few months EVERY time. Now I find out. At age 42. Probably too late for marriage and kids.
I've found that expressing out loud what I think my son wants to say helps more than explaining why he can't have it or can't have it right now. So saying, " I want to ride the train right now Mom" is better than saying the train is closed. He first wants to be understood
That's very insightful.
He wants to be understood, and he wants reassurance from you that you understand him.
I totally get it, but as an NT, I feel there is more responsibility on me to understand my ND husband than there is for him to understand me. I believe this needs to be a reciprocal learning and understanding.
It will never be reciprocal- they can’t learn what they are incapable of learning
this is validating to me as an autistic guy. it's hard to find NTs who are willing to understand that.
It may feel that way, but usually as a ND, we tend to do endless amounts of research and experimenting to understand the NT world. I'm sure if you looked into it, he's putting in just as much effort as, if not more effort than, you in this learning and understanding process. However, he is a man.. which.. actually men (especially white) tend to have less of a need and desire to mask and therefore this could really be the case for you.
My husband, who is diagnosed AS. Refuses to do any research on AS. I have done endless research on AS for the last 10 years. When i try to share the infor with him, he gets stressed and still in denial.
Sorry. After the first hundred times I heard "I'm fine" or "it's all good", I realized that means the opposite.
Been the biggest challenge in my life with any interaction I have with people.
I'm virtually a hermit, I gave up on being able to get along with people a long time ago.
I'm an aspiring hermit 😅 I get so tired of trying to figure out the nuances, to think about every way something I say could misinterpreted, and yet it gets misinterpreted anyway.
In my past relationships I'll say something like "I wish we could spend more time together." Why do I say this? Because I wish we could spend more time together (spending 1 day on the weekend and two weekday evenings together at this time).
How does my NT partner interpret this? I'm demanding, codependent, I don't support her spending time with her kids or work, I'm selfish, needy, I don't respect her needs, I'm rushing her to move in together too quickly, etc. Like, no, I understand why we can't spend more time together. I'm not suggesting anything actually change. I just have heart-felt desire to spend more time together and I'm expressing that. That's literally it.
Everything is like this. I'm being manipulative, even though I'm putting 90% of the time, energy and money into the relationship (she comes over, I've made dinner and dessert, planned entertainment, give her a shoulder rub while we do whatever, then she leaves and I clean everything up).
Or if I say that it's hard for me when she says she's going to do something and then doesn't and it would be better if she just didn't promise it in the first place, then I'm calling her a liar and lazy and placing too many expectations on her etc. and this is also me being manipulative. When I say I'm not being manipulative, and point out that I'm not actually asking for anything really, well now I'm gas lighting her. Now she expects an apology because I hurt her feelings and I'm just like "What? I was trying to convey something nice in one instance and telling you you're hurting me in another and somehow I have to apologize? That makes no sense!" The exasperation. I'm working towards just living off grid in the woods with no humans around.
@@kracklinkamphyre7142 Sounds like quite the nightmare. I'm frigid so it's easier for me to leave that alone. The emotional connection is harder to live without but my experience was that it wasn't really available anyway.
Hermiting is overrated cos the normys miss you bothering them, go for it, - annoy people
@@corsai7506 Nice one.
Same here
He makes a great point with the double empathy problem. FAR FAR TOO OFTEN had I been told that because I'm the autistic person that it was just my responsibility to change and learn and adapt and not anyone elses responsibility. I think as people we have a responsibility to try and understand each other so we can treat each other as fellow humans not just a person that should behave a certain way. This topic is a sore one for me because some people are so unkind and self centered.
Hear hear. My precious relationship broke down because of this. I tied myself in knots trying to understand them, accept them and accommodate them, and yet I got almost nothing in return. They said I was mad.
Thankyou so much for this video! I was accidentally making her feel dismissed and unheard. I realized that a few days ago, while listening to your videos, I had made all the mistakes you talk about involving Cassandra Syndrome with her. I didn’t know anything about autism while thinking I did. Watching/listening to your videos have taught me so much that’ll help me know how show her how much she means to me and to be a safe place for her in this stressful world. Instead of being just another man that causes her to feel misunderstood or not significant. She has the most beautiful heart I’ve seen. She deserves the world but, so many people have made her feel otherwise. Without your videos, a relationship between me and her probably wouldn’t have been possible. You are making a difference for the better in people’s lives.
Are you my ex? 😆
This explains why i have never been able to feel comfortable in relationships with NTs, i feel like theyre always dismissing and crossing my boundaries that i have in my opinion communicated very clearly.
It is called humanity as primates.
Primates bully.
It's not an NT or ND thing, it's having basic morals and respect thing. If a person above the age of 20 can't listen to you and respect your boundaries they are just not ready for a relationship. Be it NT or ND.
Those were probably narcissists.
Hi there. I’m the NT in a 10yr marriage, which was great until I was injured and permanently disabled. For the past 2 years, I’ve not been able to handle 80% of the ‘to-do’s and responsibilities’ of marriage and parenting. I found that I was constantly feeling gaslighted and let down. It was very confusing and hurtful. My husband was undiagnosed and it took two years to finally understand what was going on…and those two years were traumatic. I’ve always been supportive and patient with hubs and remained so through those two years. My understanding, very different from yours, is that while I experienced this disconnect during that time, everyone else saw (what he had named for as long as I’ve known him) “Mayor Mode”. So my ‘Cassandra’ experience had nothing to do with me not doing all I could to get along (even though he was presenting what looked like narcissistic/gaslighting behaviors on a daily basis), and knowing that he didn’t ‘treat anyone else that way’. I knew that (and he agreed) his behaviors were hurtful, but I also knew that at his core he didn’t want to let me down. So I hung in and we finally (in our 50’s) realized what was going on.
In your videos, you come across as defensive and seem to always assume the NT is automatically impatient, inflexible and must be unable to communicate wants and needs in a clear, concise, and cooperative manner. This has not been our experience, so surely many NT’s are quite different than you tend to portray. Perhaps it’s worth considering for the sake of reaching a bigger audience.
@@erindover6617 for real. I have Cassandra syndrome from dealing with years of being with an Aspy husband. It's those major moments in life where you really see him too.
Youre so right. The Orygin of Cassandra Syndrome is hurtfull mistreatment which serves autistic partner to his NT wife. Im one of them and its such unfair that NT people in relations are so lonely with their problems. Nowadays it seems that being autistic is even cool and only such kind of people are misunderstand and mistreated. But what about thousends of woman and men suffering in silence every day wirh nobody to listen to, nobody to understand. Why there are not dwdicated sites, YT channels for NT and their extremally harmfull relations with autistic partners? Who knows?
@@nikiniki1284 Autism 1 is very slowly becoming recognized in the US. For what you are describing, I’d suggest you read a book called “The Journal of Best Practices”. The author writes about how he and his wife realized he was on the spectrum, and then goes on to tell how he took accountability for areas in which he could improve on as a husband/partner/friend. I do, however, want to emphasize that in no way should you expect that if your Hubs reads the book, that he will be enlightened or inspired to make changes. I’m not saying it’s not possible, but it’s unlikely. But for you, it will help you see that Autism isn’t an excuse for being abusive/dismissive of your needs/unwilling to meet you in the middle/etc. Jodi Carlton has some good content on yt that may be helpful also.
My husband, my son and I are all autistic but we're not all exactly the same. I can say that my husband was the first person that I ever felt that I could truly be myself with. He understands me more than anyone I've ever met.
Our son also has ADHD and when we ask a question, half the time he doesn't hear it at all. We're trying to teach him to just say something if he needs more time to process so that we know if we need to repeat it or if he just needs more time to think about it (he's 12). The phrase "let me think about that" or even "just a minute" are things we're working on. It's strange how something that you might do can still be annoying when your child does it because you know how the rest of the world sees it. I was chastised all the time when I was his age and my parents chastise him whenever they babysit. It's frustrating because they don't "believe in autism"
I like that you’re trying to help him out a bit by telling him to let you know if he needs more time to respond. I wish my parents and some colleagues would have done that, as sometimes I did need more than the two seconds they expected me to respond in.
I don’t know if I am autistic (was diagnosed in 2000, wasn’t told until later in life…) but my current counsellor thinks it could be C-PTSD instead. I also have suspected dyspraxia and ADHD. Hoping the new surgery I’m registering with will refer me for (re)assessments.
Also, I can’t stand anyone who doesn’t “believe” in neurodivergent states.
I don’t think it gets talked about often enough how much of an internal struggle it can be being an ND parent of ND kids in a largely NT society, especially when it comes to managing certain behaviors. You might 100% understand where your kid is coming from, and even be guilty of said behaviors yourself, but you still feel like you need to help them be aware of what behaviors are OK in which situations/locations and that we need to do our best to speak to each other respectfully, even if we’re upset. Idk if that would be considered masking, but I feel like we all have a responsibility to grow as people and master ourselves as best we can, not to be people pleasers, but to not be a prisoner of our whims and be able to be the best version of ourselves
Idk man, I’m still trying to figure this all out. I’m in the middle of the official diagnosis process, but for what it’s worth, autism and ADHD both strongly resonate with me and explain a lot about my life
Depending on which generation I'm speaking with or how familiar we are with each other, I'll choose terminology like, "Loading, Processing, Spooling, Please Wait," or, "Error loading. Trying again." Or downright, "Does not compute." 😅
"my parents chastise him whenever they babysit," this breaks my heart. 💔
This goes both ways. My Autistic husband doesn't respond to my needs, nor does he try to repair when we have missunderstandings or fights.
Due to the fact that I am mostly non-verbal, expressing my feelings and thoughts can definitely be a challenge.
I love your screen name. I wish I could greet people by saying "hello sir or madam" but people wouldn't like that lol, the idea of doing it just delights me but I won't do it
@heedmydemands Aw thank you, I actually struggle with greeting people and call people Sir Madam by accident. So that's where I got my name lol.
@@SparkyStarLPS so do u mostly communicate with a text to speech thing or what do u do?
@@heedmydemands I learned how to speak english at 13, turning 19 now in a few months. I still struggle with speaking verbally, but I find texting easier since I use grammar chrome extensions to help me out. :)
@@SparkyStarLPS o wow, what language did u speak before that
I had the understanding that Cassandra Syndrome was actually referring to the experience of the partner on the end of the alexithymic situation, where they tell people (including their partner) that there's a problem but nobody believing them - particularly because the unemotive partner comes off to others outside the relationship as super rational and emotionally balanced, marginalising and further alienating the Cassandra partner who is suffering.
@@girlinthebookstore it is originally. I think he is turning it around to show that it can work both ways. I had to go back and research a bit, because I thought what you thought, and you are correct. Being an autistic, we do have troubles, as part of our diagnosis. I don’t want anyone hijacking the term though. NT have to be heard in the struggles of being in a relationship with a ND too. My poor husband….how he tolerates me at times 😉.
Look anywhere on UA-cam We want normalization but they took it tooo far now everyone should blame the parents or something. Still disregarding our needs
Same here. Add addictions that the divergent spouse has in addition to autism. It can and does create PTSD in the neurotypical spouse. After 25 years of undiagnosed autism in my spouse and nearly losing my mind and counse for PTSD-it all makes sense having heard an actual diagnosis.
There’s misinformation about this that neurotypicals have spread to spread prejudice about autistic people. It’s actually about someone who tells the truth, but never believed. Basically, it’s describing trauma autistic people have from having to deal with bullying and ostracism from neurotypicals (which never ends and affects our live negatively) But of course, when something doesn’t describe neurotypicals they can’t stand not being the center of attention and have decided to lie about it and say it’s actually about their “struggle dealing with us” basically ableism and gaslighting us autistic people yet again. 🙄🤦🏻
@@JaneHobby-zm3fgmost autistic people have CPTSD from being constantly bullied and treated as less than by neurotypicals. Cassandra syndrome is often referring to autistic people and how studies show we are less believed even though we generally tell the truth more than average neurotypical.
I really appreciate this video calling out differences in communication styles and BOTH partners needing to meet in the middle. Cassandra Syndrome happens to both partners in a neurodiverse relationship. And as the NT partner I have to literally tell my ND partner when I need a hug or that I'm feeling frustrated/upset/sad. But that can be EXTREMELY hard for me sometimes because I'm the type to bottle negative emotions and act like everything is fine and dandy. I used to think that my partner was ignoring me and insensitive until I realized that he literally cannot read the more nuanced signals that would clue him into my needing support. It's still a struggle that we both put effort in to make better.
Orion I'm literally crying right now because I am un-diagnosed ASD (diagnosed via testing but brushed off by anti-ASD doctors so I have no formal paper diagnosis other than test results) wife who understands how NTs operate socially due to extreme masking and mimicking of NTs for over 20 years (I act mostly NT as a social shield) who has a diagnosed non-masking ASD husband. We were fighting last night and for the last five years because I thought he was being cold and selfish and ignoring my triggers and feelings (PTSD and ASD triggers). He legitimately did not understand me and I did not understand him and we spent the last five years stone walling each other and just got married 3 months ago. I had this epiphany last night and you just HAPPENED to upload a video about this explaining that it is called Cassandra Syndrome. I did not even realize that this experience even had a word. I cannot even describe how thankful I am for your videos. I recently subscribed to you and we are learning so much about each other and tune in every new video and watch older ones too. THANK YOU SO MUCH.😭😭😭
This is a direct quote of what I believe is a brochure by the University of Washington Autism Center “Inaccurate self diagnosis of autism appears to be uncommon. We believe that if you have carefully researched the topic and strongly resonate with the experience of the autistic community, you are probably autistic”. Your diagnosis is completely valid. It doesn’t have to be an official clinical one.
@@madberry Another reason why you are correct is that autism still has a profound amount of stigma attached. Autism doesn't have the acceptance that conditions like ADHD has. In fact, with the latter condition, it gets thrown around with reckless abandon.
it's not only how we express our self... there's also nt cognitive bias..
after 4 trips with my gf and a couple, i asked why when i asked to stop somewhere we wouldn't and i was told 'next trip' while we did stop for anyone else...
"Manu, we did not understand that when you ask, it's important for you."
let that sink in...
if someone else say "oh! i would stop there", they understand it's important.
if i say "oh! i would stop there", they don't...
Orion, you did it for me again at 12:05! Breakthrough for the day. This is why I freeze when people need information quickly from me... They ask and it starts my lookup process. Asking a second time while I'm trying to process what they asked just derails the lookup I was trying to do in my head. AND - I figured out the mechanism in my own case. It's because I have all that information up there and it makes sense to me as raw data. I'm having to TRANSLATE into something comprehensible to another person, especially when it's a neurotypical person, and there's several things that may also have to be checked off before I'm sure we're on the same concept, even in what they might believe is an incredibly straightforward question.
For me it's like shuffling through a huge stack of loose leaf papers, binders, and cards, finding the right one, making sure nothing's spilled on it, and then making sure it's actually right side up. Then I can start reading. And that's if they don't ask me a second time. Then it's like I dropped it, everything got shuffled and I have to start over again.
i can’t imagine being able to just say what you’re thinking. i have to translate too. ironically my thoughts are too literal, and i have to elaborate on them and change up phrasing so it doesn’t come out sounding like something else completely. i think i’ve said “my jacket is too warm” once when asked why im not wearing it if im cold- i was trying to convey that the jacket i had brought wasn’t the one i had planned to bring, because the color was too warm toned and would clash with my outfit. i had planned the perfect outfit with the perfect jacket, and accidentally brought the wrong one.
My 33 year old son was recently diagnosed autistic. This video is very helpful to me in understanding his needs. I appreciate how you describe and explain the needs of neurodivergent people. Thank you Orion!!
I have a lot of feelings, and they can be confusing. I’m also kind of compulsively honest and open. It offended me recently when in a conversation with my partner where she was trying to understand me, she said that she finds it hard to understand me “because she’s very straightforward and logical.” That implies that I’m not straightforward and logical, but I disagree! I’m doing my best logical reasoning with the thoughts and feelings that I have!
Also I disagree that people who speak obliquely or circumspectly are “playing games.” They are probably just following the rules of their upbringing that forced them to hide certain reactions/feelings and amplify or manufacture others. They are probably women. Girls are socialized to be sweet literally every time they speak.
That's ego speaking
@@kr3642 No.
@@kr3642 what? No really- what is ego speaking? Did I say something self-aggrandizing? Or, do you mean that feeling defensive is egotistical?
@kr3642 how is that ego speaking?
True
When I'm like, I'm angry cuz no one is listening to me. And they're like " .... hmm? Hey why are you getting so angry?" Then I'm start yelling at the top of my lungs IM ANGRY BECAUSE NO ONE IS LISTENING TO ME and they respond be talking over me and telling me they still can't figure out why I'm so angry....
oh man, I can't even tell you... it's SO annoying. I know I probably shouldn't be throwing tantrums at nearly 40 but some people are too stupid to exist. I finally removed all of my family members from my existence, blocked and deleted their numbers, blocked their email addresses... and have finally had the first breathe of peace in my entire life. It's so nice to not have people constantly picking at me and pointing out all the ways I could never make them happy.
It's difficult enough not mixing well with others to have to deal with that shit constantly on top of it, constantly breaking you down when you just need someone who finally gets you.
Wow, what a revelation, there's actually a name for it and how perfect that it's Cassandra! Having only recently being diagnosed, and a lifetime of being dismissed by my family of origin; I do feel relief but also unable to share my autism, for fear of perpetuating Cassandra Syndrome abuse. Thank you for sharing this!🥰
I have a minor in psychology and was married to an autistic man for 6 yrs. I listened to all his needs and what he needed, but he never listened to what I needed. My needs were always blown off.
I get it. It's not official but I think I was raised by autistic people. Or at least totally useless when it comes to emotional regulation. So, naturally, I have had a very hard time knowing how I felt, but I understand them perfectly. But what I needed emotionally and tried to convey landed on deaf ears. I understand that they couldn't help being the way they are but... It still sucks. And I'm glad you left. It's hard but we deserve someone who will put in some effort too. ❤
Not all autistic people are the same. It is what it is.
That's a human thing, not an autism thing. So many NT couples break up because of that, one giving 100% while the other person gives under 100%. It is what it is, people suck, some more, some less, some in some ways, some in others.
Yes to this. It is a very one sided relationship for many of us married to individuals with autism. I’ve met many people who claim it is not that way with their spouse. They should consider themselves very lucky
I was with an NT woman for eight years whose needs I listened to and took care of, but was rarely reciprocated. Just like you, I dated a HUMAN BEING who was a certain way. You were married to a jerk; you are framing it as if his autism is directly the reason he was a jerk. That's ableist, absurd, asinine, arrogant, yikes. You know what my problem with people like you is? You think that your experience is the standard, and not a RANDOM SAMPLE.
If you married an autistic person, you married ONE AUTISTIC PERSON. You did not marry a representative of The Autists. Get your head out of the sand and listen to the world around you!
My husband has autism and I might too. He is the one experiencing Cassandra syndrome most because I don't experience empathy to a full degree. I know cognitively that I should be kind to him and help him meet his needs, but emotionally I feel little so I often miss a kind of internal motivator to do so. It really helps if he is more clear about his own needs and if I look at it from his perspective more, which I have to to actively. Still going strong for 15 years though.
Interesting… I have hyper empathy and I still don’t respond as neurotypicals expect… in part because I might not understand their indirect communication. I also know that neurotypicals often dial down their feelings when talking about them and so therefore dial up the feelings when listening to others and have experienced them dialling up mine. Still, knowing this doesn’t mean I recognise it when they’re expressing their feelings. Also, neurotypicals also seem to take a lot of offence with our direct communication style-i.e., they take a lot of things personally. It seems like you probably don’t do that and so that would be experienced as a relief.
I’m glad you recognise cognitively to respond to your husband.
As they say everyone experiences this differently. My situation is switched, I give him room for all his needs but struggle with getting reciprocity. I actually do "say that" but I suspect PDA or other factors (adhd?) mean he just can't. Its difficult because it's adding to my burn out and has meant I might need to consider removing myself to get better. We can only do what we can do....
@Sam Preston it sounds like what I'm going through right now. It's quite painful trying to communicate needs and feelings when the other person is incapable of receiving or giving them, especially because it's not their fault that they can't. I hope you know you aren't alone!
Learning about affective deprivation disorder has helped me validate this experience.
Orion, thankyou, thankyou, thankyou. You have no idea how much you've helped me process my realisation at 54 that I may be autistic. Thankyou
I remember telling my grandma very straight up "I don't like this person, he gives me a bad feeling" when a random friend of my brother acted interested in me, and she responded by thinking I liked the guy and was being coy, so she gave him my personal information and singlehandedly created a problem of the guy stalking me because SURELY I wouldn't say what I meant 😐🛑
Tou did nothing wrong. Your grandma is a horrible person.
Your grandma sucks.
Oh fuck that's awful
Thank you for this information. My husband who is an Asperger does this whole pause with responding back to what I asked or said and I thought he just didn’t want to respond. I did not realize until this video that he is trying to process what I have said or asked. Thank you for helping me to better understand my husband .
Am I the only one with an ASD husband who is a passive-aggressive emotional wreck? So many women refer to their husband, even their ASD husband as "He's my rock!" I wish I had that! I'm the logical, direct one. I'm the rock. He's the freaking out floppy fish I'm trying to coax back into the water. And he absolutely did not show signs of this in the 2 and a half years leading up to marriage. But as soon as we were married - BOOM - mask off! And no one believes me because he knows how to put the mask back on around everyone else. Cassandra Syndrome
This causes pain in more than just relationships. It also causes gaps in health care (sometimes leading to dangerous situations) and a gross lack of needed supports during IEP meetings.
Cassandra syndrome is what happens to the neurotypical partner because no one believes her about how bizarre her relationship is!
yes, especially when your partner is not yet diagnosed with aspergers....
Yet, it baffles me that the ND community is trying to appropriate it. Or they say that they feel empathy.
People under the spectrum experience things differently from people who aren’t under the spectrum.
I feel ND and NT people use the same terms that mean completely different things.
I can’t even begin to fathom what may be like to experience the world as an autistic person.
IMO, best thing we can do is to believe the autistic people and for autistic people to believe the non autistic people.
I feel that we live in different realities, not that one is correct and the other one is wrong.
One thing I know for a fact is that I would never associate with anyone who is diagnosed as HFA because I am convinced that communication is virtually impossible.
@@inadifferentdimension1774 Let's look at the dictionary definition of empathy real quick. Empathy; the ability to understand and share the feelings of another. As an autistic person I UNDERSTAND how frustrating it is when someone doesn't "get" what you are trying to communicate. I also SHARE those FEELINGS of frustration because it is equally as frustrating when I don't "get" it. A clear example of how an autistic person can feel empathy.
What is often mistaken as autistic people being unempathetic is when how someone feels is NOT COMMUNICATED to us in a way we are able to understand. Because facial expressions/ social cues/ body language etc. is an entirely SEPARATE language. If you as an english speaking person wanted to communicate to a french speaking person you would both do one of three things; learn english/french, have someone translate or find a language both parties speak. So actually an english speaking NT person can quite easily communicate with an english speaking ND person, because both parties can speak ENGLISH.
So despite how "convinced" you are that communication is "virtually impossible" it actually isn't. What DOES baffle me is why someone who "would never associate with an HFA" is watching a UA-cam video created by an autistic person for autistic people and people who DO want to associate with other autistic people. UNLESS said person only clicked on said video in order to leave a hateful, unempathetic, ableist comment about autistic people... in which case, GET A NEW HOBBY!
Sounds like a narcissist to me. Autistic people often end up with narcissists. I don't feel sorry for the narcissists.
I’ve gotta say this can definitely go the other way too. I literally just had a conversation with my autistic partner where he acted pretty dismissive of my needs and basically said, “Okay I’ll do that if you really want me to but I don’t really think that need is valid.” I would have preferred if he had asked me to clarify why the need was important to me.
And at least if he’s anything to go by, not all autistic people think it’s obvious to just ask directly for what you need. My partner seems to have internalized the idea that being direct like this is something he is “not allowed” to do (possibly a masking thing? I don’t know for sure because he hasn’t told me, haha). I’m trying my best to communicate that I need him to be more direct, in a way that’s inviting rather than demanding, but also still firm. But then, sometimes he doesn’t know what he’s feeling or what he needs. I’m willing to be patient about him telling me because I know it doesn’t always come as naturally to him, and I’m very sympathetic to this. But I know it is up to him in the end to convey this information to me because I can’t read his mind. And trying to read your partner’s mind can lead to some destructive codependent dynamics.
So yes, I think both partners need to be committed to trying to understand the other person and trying to make themselves understood to the other person, even when it’s hard. NT behavior often seems to strike autistic people as “illogical.” But there might be a very good reason for it that the autistic person doesn’t understand. And the NT person would be much more willing to explain that reason if the autistic person responded with curiosity and was open to the idea that they might be missing some information, rather than jumping to, “Well that just doesn’t make any sense.” Same goes for NT people trying to understand autistic people, of course.
Oh, yeah, experience tells us that when you're direct, people get offended. But then they don't tell you WHY they're offended because "you KNOW what you did!" or other dismissive nonsense. So we just try not to share after a while.
Telling someone a need isn’t valid is just rude. I say that as an autistic person. But I’m relying on what you’re saying-you used the word “need.” (I generally think of needs as having to do with emotional needs but you might be referring to what I write below.) Even if the other person’s need seems irrational, we autistic people aren’t always rational ourselves. We have needs that aren’t grounded in rationality too.
The issue with things being illogical is not exactly the same when it’s not about a need, an in the moment expressed need not related to future expectations. When it’s a request to do something that requires us to go along with it repeatedly or to meet an expectation we don’t understand, it is difficult for us to do that for perhaps many reasons. For me, I have trouble remembering to do something unless it makes logical sense to me (this is perhaps why we are considered stubborn as children). Also, more importantly, I’m also not going to, out of whole cloth, act the way a neurotypical might, and therefore, I am guaranteed to disappoint a partner who points to how other people think and how everyone else would know to do thus and so as a reason I ought to be expected to act that way all on my own in each new situation as if I would think the way they do. I didn’t know I was autistic when my ex husband would criticise my reasoning ability in this way-that is, comparing me to other people. I used to think, “I’m not them.” What I didn’t realise is that he had a neurotypical understanding of people and I had an autistic one.
However, you are right that we need to respond with curiosity. I used to do that with my ex husband but even then I often found what he was saying-what he expected from me-was illogical… as if I would know this is how neurotypicals think and behave. Life is dynamic and neurotypicals respond as they do and autistics respond as we do and we can’t just turn on neurotypical thinking to anticipate what a partner might want from us. Even if I understood why my not doing thus and so upset him (given how neurotypicals think), there was no way I was going to be able to anticipate each and every new situation the way a neurotypical person would. So I was going to constantly disappoint him and every other neurotypical partner I had. Of course, none of us knew I was autistic.
But I did know what he and other partners were asking of “me” made no sense but made perfect sense to them. And I really did think they were being illogical by expecting me, a separate person, to behave the way they thought other people would behave. I felt like I was constantly being brought up short by not thinking / behaving as they thought others would or would have themselves, and no doubt they felt similarly when I’d ask them to be direct. From their perspective: I mean, didn’t I love them enough to pay attention and pick up on what they wanted? Yes of course that much love, AND I’m not capable of reading just about all indirect communication. I can’t take a hint, and I don’t even know what percentage of time I’m not even aware of a hint being made and a hint is a behavior that neurotypicals often engage in when trying to be more direct. So, if I’m missing that kind of indirect communication, I’m missing a hell of a lot more nuanced stuff that’s normal for neurotypicals.
At any rate, my ex husband was very bright and considered himself far more logical than most and once during an argument, he said to me in exasperation, “You’re just TOO logical.” And to be honest, I found that really illogical. As he would explain his logic, it was like watching a computer board fail at various points while being defensively biased about the failures. Really, some of it comes down to how neurotypicals brains work in relationship with other people (that particular kind of NT reasoning)-what seems like wired in expectations that everyone just knows (and psychopaths seem to recognise and can take advantage of)-versus say how their brains work when writing computer code. This difference is applied logic makes some things logical to them that are not at all logical to us. My brother didn’t call me Spock for nothing.
I’m disabled and old, and will never be in relationship again-I really wish I could try one more time, but this time having a better understanding that the disconnect was between two neurotypes.
@@BeeWhistler Often when we try to make sense of an interaction with them by checking it out, we’re seen as disingenuous (because like as you said we “obviously” know what went down), and neurotypicals will outright lie that there was any other meaning than what we thought was meant or that there was offence taken at all even when we detect there might have been. Everything is “hunky dory” until they hit us up beside the head with it later-often when it’s too late to fix the miscue and heal the relationship.
I continue to share because I truly know no other way. But I check things out less. I figure it almost always turns out badly anyway. If people can’t be direct, they’re going to hit me upside the head regardless of my attempts to be a loving and good person who cares about our interactions. So I leave it to them.
@@BeeWhistler 110%. I have told my partner numerous times, "busy body, busy mind" in an attempt to get her to notice that if I'm participating in an activity I am fully focused on that thing. I keep explaining that I can't just switch focus instantaneously and that it would be helpful to me, and allow me to be more kind to her, if she would say, "Hey, I need your attention. Can you find a place to stop so I can tell you this?" But she won't do it. I've tried dozens of times to ask for this and no matter how often I say it, nothing changes. In fact, she now mocks the saying "busy body, busy mind." So last night I'm sitting in the living room and I very clearly have headphones on and a game controller in my lap. I was listening to an audiobook while killing enemies in a video game. And she just immediately leaped into conversation. What makes it worse is that I get anxiety if I don't pay attention to her, because she gets mad if she feels like I'm not able to shift to what she says. So last night I took the direct route through this and said, "See, you're doing it again! You have to give me time to stop doing what I'm doing!" And instead of being receptive or kind, she told me that it was my "tone" that bothered her. But after literal years of asking for something that someone refuses to respect, how can she expect my tone to be kind? It started out kind and now I'm just angry. She thinks I should just be able to shift my attention immediately because she can. Ugh.
@@KRAKENKRYPTED Sounds like you need to dump her honestly. She has no empathy or compassion for you.
Not just partners and friends, parents, police, teachers, doctors, nurses, councillors, therapists, grandparents, aunts, uncles etc. there is something about my cadence or tone that seems to make it damn near impossible for people to believe me right off the bat. My father didn't believe me that his father sexually assaulted me, my mother didn't believe me that I was being bullied in school, teachers didn't believe me when I told them I was trying my best to understand. By the age of seven I'd learned to keep my gob shut. Seeking acceptance validation and understanding from external sources has been something that has proven itself pointless, fruitless, and at times actively harmful, yes I'm a hermit now.
This is my first time learning about Cassandra syndrome.
This perfectly explains my biggest lifelong problem as a late diagnosed autistic person.
Thank you.
As soon as you described Cassandra as being cursed to only tell the truth but never be believed, my jaw hit the floor.
This is AT THE CENTER OF MY EXPERIENCE! 😭 From being a toddler to in court as an adult, I'm always accused of lying, but I'm terrible at lying! I cannot stand lying or liars!
This so so timely, I was telling a friend how speaking with HCP’s is so difficult as you can not just state how you are feelings or symptoms and regularly not being believed or taken seriously.
Masking adds to my part in the mis-communication as it seems body language is ‘read’ more then words.
And how I have to add layers ( subtitles) to the conversation so that what is self evident to me is not and I need to do this in order is needed to be heard.
Edit:It is a struggle as it feels manufactured and manipulative, but the direct approach has not worked so as my intent is to be heard it is worth the effort. I learned the DBT - DEARMAN technique and it has been useful.
I experience these issues the most with my parents. With them, I try to convey my needs/feelings, and they almost always immediately dismiss them, saying something like "no you DON'T need that, you're being ridiculous, oh come on" or things like that. They don't even want to *try* to understand or accept that I DO have those needs :(
Perhaps theyre narcissists? Look into it.
Are they infantilizing you? That's often a problem with parents not recognizing that you're an autonomous entity and have your own feelings and needs and "mother knows best" isn't really true.
(It's a silly advice to give, but you should watch the Tangled song "Mother Knows Best" (both the first and reprise) and see if that seems to fit your own experience.)
@@neoqwerty With them, it's more like "you just need to/should adjust and adapt like everyone else" without taking into consideration at all that that is MUCH more difficult for an autistic person :(
@@SamLovesMovies25 I have family like that. It's unfortunate because they think they're preparing me for how hard the real world is. But all they're really teaching me is to avoid people like them and be grateful not everyone is like that.
I am so sorry this happens to you.
A lot of problems I face with normal people is all the implicit and nonverbal wants, needs and expectations, all the norms, all the things they assume I would understand. I'd say I suffer regularly from the inverse of cassandra syndrome where people simply aren't willing to communicate clearly their wants and expectations and everything
My husband was autistic and now I know why we had so many disagreements. I wish I would have found your channel sooner, it would have made things so much easier. My husband died March 1st, this year and I was talking to a high school friend who is also Autistic and really opened my eyes to Why David would respond in a certain way. Now I feel sad I get in contact with my friend until after My husband died. I feel so sad that this could have helped us so much. Thank you for your channel.
You have just described the primary problem I've had with others for my entire life. Now I can work on improving my end of this, and that's very empowering. Thank you so much for that. Here's hoping that the neurotypical people in my life will be willing to work on their end too.
My partners reacting to so many things that I was not communicating is so frustrating to me. Because I sense immediately when they’re upset. And so then the weight of translating and interpreting is placed solely on me. I’ve reach the point of meltdown this way. Many times.
The Neurotypical partner may also be driven to frustration, pain, emptiness, heartbreak, due to Cassandra Syndrome.
I always get the "Me too!" moments from your videos. I share most of them with my NT wife and family with comments.
Thanks!
This importantly also works the other way. It can be hard for autistic people to understand when you are trying to communicate your needs to them. Asking questions to check their understanding helps.
One time in speaking with my sister I told her I was depressed and she yelled at me “well you don’t sound depressed!” About 20 years of pain feeling like I was not believed by someone I loved most in the world. I just shared this with her. I hope she received it well and we can be more aware for each other now. I need a good cry to let go of the pain now. Wow, thank you for this! 😭😭😭❤️❤️❤️
Hi Orion!
I always wondered why i had to “be dramatic” and “act” to get people to believe me about my thoughts and feelings. I always thought that it was just because they assumed that I was extremely emotional and would certainly be distraught by any emotion. It makes so much sense for it to be a learned communication bridge for this issue
I think this is the very worse in a work setting. They don’t love and care about you the same as a partner or friend. I can’t begin to tell you the number of times my boss or coworker has rolled their eyes at a comment I have made.
The one I hate is when there's more than one and they look at each other when you say something, like you're freaking blind or something. Oh, man, I could just knock their heads together...
I suppose it’s the sort of work you find yourself in. I always found work settings easier because neurotypicals tend to be more direct at work (not always and not fabulous at it generally but more). Not that I didn’t have issues-I did and most, if not all, were related to the disconnect to between my being autistic and others not being. I knew people found me to be weird, but most didn’t project bad intent onto me the way partners would. It seems while people at work bring their emotional baggage with them, most bring less baggage than they would to a personal relationship. Rolled eyes, people thinking I’m weird, I can deal with; it’s the projection of their own stuff onto me when I fail to act like a neurotypical that typically leads to bad outcomes.
I hate when I am forced to socialize with coworkers, I find no purpose in talking with complete strangers while being ocupied with moving boxes and stuff
@@krsmanjovanovic8607 Are you not interested in getting to know them so that they are no longer complete strangers? Is having casual friendships with your work colleagues not appealing to you? Are you autistic? Is this your own personality trait, or is it common for autistic people not to want to be on friendly terms with their work colleagues? (These are sincere questions. I’m genuinely interested in people’s line of thinking/feelings on this.)
@@BeeWhistler They know you're not blind. They want you to see them exchanging "knowing" looks. It's meant as a demeaning insult cue to you.
I have adhd so I may have missed this but I have only ever heard Cassandra syndrome used to refer NT women married to men with undiagnosed autism, who arent believed by anyone outside the marriage when they say he seemed like he might be autistic (and all the problems in the relationship that might be caused by not understanding that).
The way I describe communication between autistic and an allistic people is like this: all people communicate using multiple channels (body language, tone of voice, choice of words, eye contact, etc) that each carry some part of the overall message, so when two people are communicating, person A has a message they want to convey, fills each channels with some part of that message, and outputs it to person B. Person B in turn, receives and places each piece in it's channel, recombines all the pieces, and finally (ideally) understands person A's original message.
It should be pretty easy to see that if any of those channels get changed or misinterpreted, the end result could change. The meaning of the overall message could be misunderstood. And here's the issue: allistic people have a part of their brain that "fills each channel" and "places each piece in it's channel" _automatically_ , autistic people do not. Now, that encoding/decoding process _can_ be controlled manually by allistic people if they spend the extra energy and mental effort to do so. Autistic people don't have a choice, the part of the brain that handles encoding/decoding isn't there (or doesn't work particularly well), that's _why_ autistic people can communicate with others on the spectrum without much difficulty, but struggle with allistic people.
It is entirely possible to _learn_ the skill of encoding/decoding those communication channels, so that the amount of energy and mental effort is lessened, but one must know that they even _need_ to learn that skill in the first place. Otherwise, an autistic person will communicate with very few channels (word choice, word connotation, no emoting, no body posturing), resulting in the other channels being received as "garbage" (awkward pauses) or even worse, as unintended meaning (rudeness, arrogance, disinterest), by an allistic person. Likewise, an allistic person without encode/decode skills may send conflicting or ambiguous information in each channel, resulting in the autistic individual pausing to decode the message, becoming confused by conflicting data, or unsure what the message was even meant to be.
TL; DR: people communicate in multiple ways at once. Allistic people can easily send multiple kinds of information at once when communicating, but this can be ambiguous when done automatically. Autistic people must spend energy to send and receive multiple kinds of information at once, this is rarely ambiguous, but can be easily misunderstood when someone expects information in channels of communication that were never filled.
This. I'm very careful with word choice. I do not use the word "jealousy" in the colloquial use to mean "envy"; I only use it to describe fear of losing something. I don't get jealous of people, I envy them.
Drek hit the fan when, at the encouragement of a group councilor, I told my polyamorous group that I'd wanted to move in with everyone because of jealousy. Only AFTER they'd decided to kick me out of the house while I was hospitalized for the ensuing mental break was I able to explain that by "jealous" I meant "afraid of being left out of the relationship", not "wanting to have a partner to myself" (needless to say, I don't think I'll be trying poly relationships again)
My issue is that I can very well learn all the ways of communicating and socializing, and I have been for a while now, but I fear that by doing that I'm just masking and I'm not being myself, and that's not a good thing. Nowadays I have no issues with eye contact, well at least not with giving it, I can learn all the ways to communicate effectively but am I not just making someone else out of me? What if a person falls in love with the person who socializes and makes eye contact, only to realize that deep down I am not that person. Masking is a very big issue, but I don't know if I wanna stop. Gotta talk about it with my therapist if I get lucky and find one. Cruel world.
its not just personal relationships. everyone who is in charge of or partly responsible for the culture of a workplace needs to watch this video.
I’m experiencing a LOT of this right now with my mother. After getting out of a 12 year relationship, I had to move back in with her at the age of 41, and I have such a hard time conveying my feelings and emotions in a way she can understand. It’s led to feelings of isolation and shame.
I’ve always been better writing things out over verbal communication. I’m hoping I can clearly convey my feelings in this manner going forward, but I’m still not sure how she’ll take it (I’ve written my letter to her, but haven’t let her read it yet).
Thank you for this video. It helps me know I’m not alone feeling this way. With any luck, I can get my mother to watch this. Hopefully, she can get some understanding of the challenges I face that I’ve masked over for nearly 4 decades. Again, thank you, Orion!
Hoping that the letter worked or at least opened a dialogue with her!
This video was incredibly enlightening. I have been trying to figure out or explain to people what has been going on in my life basically my entire life. It’s clear that I have autism. I’m actually finally getting a diagnosis at age almost 30. Part of the reason why I have not gotten a diagnosis until now is because I was told there’s no way I could possibly have autism even though there is very clear signs. Now I’m at a point in my life where I cannot proceed and I’ve been stuck for almost 4 years. It’s the only reason why anybody’s taking me serious because I’ve tried to get a job, I’ve tried to be active in life, I’ve tried to be active in my social life. And it just never works. I did not know there was a name for it, but this explains exactly what happened in my life. Even my parents won’t admit that I have autism but it’s so bad that they are getting me help for it finally. I call it the elephant in the room like it’s really obvious to me and I feel like it’s obvious to everybody else. But in reality it’s probably an elephant under a sheet. Like we all know it’s there we’re just trying desperately to hide something that is not hideable
Orion, the 'toast' point you made about your son was like a light bulb moment for me mate. I stand going around and around with my son asking him if he wants....! Gonna be more mindful to allow him processing time.
Once me and my friends stopped playing games, stopped assuming things, and started to ask for clarification when something sounded harsh or confusing, our communication immediately improved drastically. Especially in texts.
Watching this made me wonder: how many versions of this were recorded so you could edit this end product? It’s like trying to read hundreds of micro-expressions…all in mere minutes!
Just listening I completely agree with the experience of Cassandra Syndrome. Am dealing with this communication failure at work and my levels of frustrations are triggering meltdowns. Exhausting!
I'm exausted and now fairly isolated from over explaining to people bound and determined to misunderstand me. Mostly narcissists which Love to target me and waste my time brain cells n energy. Thanks for the vid.
I have learned over time that when something is important I get the best results by saying that.
This is important. I need to say it so you understand it. I need to know you understand it even if you don't identify with it.
It's been remarkably effective in my life. Both in feeling connected, and weeding out people who aren't healthy to be around. If someone isn't willing to try to understand what I'm feeling after being explicit about it... They aren't worth it in most cases.
The fact that most comments on this video are wrongly flipped to how this affects the neurodiverse person in the relationship is the perfect example of how cassandra syndrome can appear in the first place. When i first heard of it my first thought was how i could prevent its terrible effects affecting my neurotypical wife. People seem to have it all wrong.
My ex was on the spectrum and I made a lot of accommodations for him but what really made it go wrong was he had very little empathy towards me, very little emotional intelligence or insight into me. And he straight up REFUSED to meet me halfway on everything. It was all my fault, I needed to take care of myself (but also take care of him). He would not communicate and would run away from stressful conversations.
This diagnosis doesn’t make it ok to do any of these things. So it’s important to be clear that a lot of people regardless of diagnosis or not are just not good to be dating. My ex could have developed into a better partner if he bothered to make the slightest effort, but he was exceptionally anti-growth as far as personality.
Some people just are. Don't have to be autistic either. I've encountered a few non-autistic just like that. There's got to be something missing in such people cognitively.
Hear hear. I had exactly the same experience. 😣
Cassandra syndrome highlights the need for recognition and support for neurotypical partners in neurodiverse relationships. First time I've heard Cassandra is for AS.
I recommend you watch excellent UA-cam by Mark Hutten on explanation/advice for NT/ AS
Cassandra Syndrome has ruined my relationships with so many people before I even knew what was happening. I think my husband and I are both on the spectrum and I don't think it's easier because we don't experience it in the same ways. It bites.
THANK YOU ORION. Nobody is talking about this and you put it so well.
I'm autistic, my fiancé has ADHD, so we're both neurodivergent. Which has honestly helped in the fact that we both know we have to be communicative and understanding. Our brains work differently than neurotypical people, but also from each other, and we've learned to understand and accommodate for those differences.
For example, we labeled the fridge and pantry recently, as weird as that may sound (it was actually recommended by my therapist). But it helps because with his ADHD he used to just put stuff wherever after grocery shopping because he never remembered where I usually put things. But now he does, and I feel comfortable knowing where things are. It's a small thing, but lots of small things add up and it makes it that much easier.
I've often said over the years that every newly married couple should have a therapist for at least a few years into the marriage to smooth things over that have the potential to become marriage breakers. Would result in fewer divorces.
It sounds like you believe most of the responsibility for understanding is placed clearly upon the non-autistic person. For someone who has been married to an autistic man for 66 years, we have found that we each have the same responsibility to understand and be understood, not just for me to understand him. He has the job of learning to understand how I think and feel as I learn how he thinks and understands me. It is a mutually cooperative endeavor.
The message in this video is interesting and I would say mostly helpful for me because it made me think on a larger scale of the effect on the one who cannot communicate their needs clearly to the NT partner. However as an NT spouse who has experienced what I consider to be a severe and debilitating case of Cassandra Syndrome which I got from the lack of emotional reciprocity, unmeet needs, miscommunication and isolation in my 19 year relationship with an undiagnosed autistic man, I found it downplayed the experience of it in the neurotypical partners in relationships. I feel hurt by this downplaying and by some of the unsympathetic comments by the neurodivergents also. I have empathy and understanding for my spouse's developmental disorder but I also have a lion's share of rage and resentment and those are very real symptoms of Cassandra Syndrome that are extremely difficult to deal with especially when my legitimate needs are still not being met.
This is because the term is usually used on the NT partner and there are lots of resources from that perspective. He is offering the ND experience and showing that it is truely a two-way street. The ND frustration is valid, but the hate is problematic. So are the NT “Cassandra Syndrome support groups” that blame the ND spouse. Too far on one side or the other is dangerous. But his video does not do that. He is simply providing the other side of the coin that is severely lacking.
I am so sorry your needs have been chronically unmet. I am a late diagnosed autistic adhd woman with a probably adhd spouse. It’s hard. The communication between us may not be as poor as it would be between a fully ND/NT dynamic, but our different sensory needs and his untreated adhd are very troublesome. Learning together is helping, but I am beginning to realize that there are certain things he cannot do, and vice versa. So we have to get creative how to meet our needs. It’s not easy, but at least there is hope again. You deserve to love and be loved in return. I hope you and your spouse can find ways to meet each other’s needs, but if not, get out. You both deserve better. ❤❤❤
Why would you be with someone for 19 years who makes you unhappy, when like, you could have just not done that? Is Cassandra syndrome to you when you force a relationship with an incompatible person and get all surprised when it makes you unhappy?
I needed to hear this video! And I am already sharing it with some people (but not the person I experienced this from).
This is clearly what caused my marriage to fail. I realized at some point that he was not understanding where I was coming from and how I was feeling. I pleaded for us to go to couples therapy to figure out how to communicate with one another. I thought I was being clear but he would literally ignore me. Later we had a horrible fight where he accused me of faking my depression and this crushed me. He didn't want to go to therapy because from his point of view I was the only one with a problem.
I needed this video so much. Thank you for validating me. I did put in the effort I did try. And yes my ex husband should have and could have done a lot better. I'm lucky now its been almost a decade since that split but now I have wonderful relationships where people try and understand and learn.
This honestly sounds more like narcissistic abuse to me. I doubt it had anything to do with your ex-husband simply not understanding where you were coming from/how you were feeling. Narcissists just don't care about anyone except themselves. And they misunderstand you VERY deliberately....it's part of their game.
@@letsrock1729 I would agree that it was not just me being autistic. However narcissist wouldn't be what I'd describe him as. He seemed to completely lack empathy but could act it when socially nessicary. I'd say he is closer to a psychopath but without the crime. He would hold his true thoughts about something to himself until years later when maybe he used it to hurt you. He also lacked manipulation and self centered ness. He was just devoid of empathy and something we talked about years after our separation.
@@brickellvoss7739 Keeping your true thoughts to yourself for years and then using them to hurt someone (when the time is 'right') sounds like manipulative behaviour to me. To be honest, everything you said accurately describes the actions/behaviours of a narcissist. There's a huge overlap between this and psychopathy. Anyway, the main thing is that you are no longer married to him.
@@letsrock1729 I know my mother and father are in cluster B personality disorders for sure. My ex just doesn't fit the criteria for NPD, yes he had maybe 2 traits. But that is far from enough to call him a narcissist. I'm not against the word. I'd freely call my parents narcissist. But my ex just had an empathy problem. No inflated sense of self, no need for admiration, didn't expect special treatment, he didn't exaggerate his achievements in fact he rarely talked about them unless it was relvent, he wasn't insecure, he didn't gaslight me, never caught him in lies. He just lacked empathy and withheld his true beliefs. Yes those acts caused a lot of hurt. But nothing on the level of what my parents did and in less time too... Im not saying what he did was okay but it's far from being able to call him a narcissist.
@@brickellvoss7739 Wow, that's a very interesting situation then, with your ex-husband. And I don't mean that to come across as trivialising what you went through (which I'm not). It's probably fair to say that I currently can't 'disentangle' any of these traits from each other, because I had such a horrific time myself at the hands of a narcissist. So my first port of call is always to suspect narcissism. But you obviously know far more about your ex-husband than I do (because I know literally nothing 😉).
I Have a "bad habit" of always growling and scowling at people who ask me questions and demand an immediate response. I cannot understand words _AS_ they are spoken, like they come through as individual packets of information, then I have to re-assemble them into what was likely said, then I have to try to process that information and make a determination of what I am supposed to do...
And then, AND THEN... when I am able to follow the conversation, people constantly put these empty spaces in their speech so I will try to help them find that word they stumbled with or re-assure them that I am keeping up and get yelled at that I always dominate the conversation and can't just listen.
Its like the squirrel in my brain that does the whole communication thing is either sleeping in or snorting cocaine.
Growling? 😮
This is honestly good advice to all people in all situations, autistic or not. Be patient and don't assume things too quick. Say what you mean and communicate clearly. I think a lot of the problems in this world wouldn't exist if people just did this.
Wow, thank you Orion! Cassandra syndrome really goes both ways in a neurodiverse relationship, doesn't it? I'm really in a place of needing to believe that my autistic husband really cares for me even though it's hard for him to show it. In this situation, he's the Cassandra.
This is mostly the case. They are the Cassandra's. A relationship with them is a one way street....with only them driving in their preferred lane and vehicle, you having no choice where to go. Super exhausting with them.justifying being overly self centered due to their "disability". I am super tired listening to "Understand the autistic" videos, where are the "How to understand a Neurotypical person?" Video to teach the the autistic to be less self centered and more compassionate and endearing towards others needs. Easiest way to be understood, is to understand another, better yourself and show compassion. This is what they lack most. They almost have an inate inability to understand any other point of view other than what themself is having. If not the same, it must be wrong and the other person just needs to be convinced of it, at ALL cost...after a while you pretend to agree just to get a way out of the conversation...enough to make any sane person go jump of a bridge...😢 even the presenters of these videos are super self centered and selfish and expect nothing of the austistic person, juat the neuro typical....this is sad and only enforce the idea of everybody needs to compensare for the autistic person and they themselves do not need to grow or learn one bit how to also better accomodate those around them.
Great video! All of this perfectly applies to work relationships (and any other types of relationships), too! I've figured out that it's super helpful to ask colleagues to always be extra clear when they want to convey something - even in those cases where it might feel rude to them to some degree. I explicitly asked them to do it anyways because it'll very likely be helpful instead of hurtful. I on my side will always give them the benefit of the doubt in case it actually feels rude to me. At least when the approach seems to have the goal of making things better and not a personal attack of some sort. I told them it will help us all figure out any troubles so we can then try to fix them, which should be the goal. That goes for business matters as well as personal topics. Also, "tell me, then I'll know it" has generally helped a lot. Side note: I'm not diagnosed with autism. It only occurred to me quite recently that I might quite possibly be on the spectrum but I currently don't have the time to have it figured out. But I made it through 40+ years now and I've seemingly found some helpful routes by myself (and for whatever my own "status" actually is) to bounce off less.
I usually mask and focus on the other person and avoid my own needs completely.
Then, over time it leads to burnout and isolation. Not wanting to talk at all and silence feeling misunderstood & turmoil.
Often leading to break ups and confusion for my partner because all the focus and love was on them with pure bliss then all of a sudden I disconnect and break up when I’m burned out.
I’m a single mom with three kids. My son is on the spectrum and he verbally stims which happens to be a huge trigger for me. He is also verbally aggressive and never stops talking.
Therefore, when I’m burned out with him I feel even more isolated from any outside relationship and needs days to isolate just to get back to myself.
"Bears Vs Berries" is a hilarious dialogue that I witnessed between 2 friends who were able to converse at length without knowing that the subject they were talking about was different. Great video to help family who may be triggered by discussing these topics without being involved in the explanation! This has been a challenge for me as a nurse and husband because many people feel dejected by failed communication and it is difficult to move past this communication issue when it happens, autistic or not.
NTs: How was I supposed to know that?
Me: Because I told you in clear, unambiguous language. Twice.
NTs: Yeah, but how was I supposed to know that that's what you meant by that?
Me: b e c a u s e t h a t ' s w h a t t h o s e w o r d s m e a n
NTs: Okay, but I just dreamed up a whole different angle you might have been playing and decided that that was what you must have been getting at, despite it not matching the literal meaning of your words or your numerous attempts to clarify, because it validated my insecurities and/or prejudices.
Me: ...
The DSM-5: Autism is marked by communication deficits.
This comment has me SCREAMING laughing. I’ve been through this soo many times, it feels like I’m speaking an ENTIRELY different dialect of English most times. I really don’t get how that’s considered “Normal” 😂
💯
Hello, thanx for the great video!
The approach is a bit different from what I read online about this Cassandra phenomenon, but for me it gets explained better here.
Many other sources claim the autist is the one without the feelings, but that there is treatment to make them better...
My personal experience with the Cassandra curse:
Two years ago I ended my 7yr relationship with a female covert narcissist doctor with a secret sex addiction. That was bad enough experience by itself, but what happened afterwards really startled me. Almost no one would believe me, while I knew I was telling the truth and she obviously was lying and manipulating everyone around me. Even when I showed some good evidence my family and most friends still wouldnt believe me. Worse, they chose to do to keep the family- or their own image intact, while I was suffering for some or any help. I had to wait 1,5 years to speak to a psychologist; I needed someone to help me explain what was happening, but that would go on to be the next traumatic event :p
I was diagnosed with ADD as a young adolescent and after a life with narcissistic parents, sister and a girlfriend I got diagnosed with CPTSD.
Because of this diagnosis I had to move to a different psychologist, but they wouldnt believe me without even looking at some of the evidence I recovered.
They tried to label me as paranoid and psychotic and was denied proper treatment unless I would start taking antipsychotics. How about that?
Later I connected well with someone with a autism diagnosis, and It made me think. Am I autistic too?
After some honest introspection and taking some tests it was quite clear to me. But every psychologist I met completely missed this and never even uttered the word.
This autism realisation is now a week old, but very educational already.
Wow! This is exactly what's happening. Great video!
I am so thankful that not only did I randomly happen to come across this video of yours (having watched only one other video of yours, to date), but I am also extremely thankful to you for taking your time to create this video; this one may be game changing, not only for myself but also my (now) wife and many other people that can relate to this syndrome in their relationships.
I put my autistic best friend through Cassandra Syndrome last year when we were discussing living together. He tried to tell me what he's looking for in a living space (close to public transit, wheelchair accessibility) and I never applied his needs in my searches, and he had no choice but to move on with plans without me.
I realize that sometimes information needs to be drilled into my head in order for me to get the hint. Since it'd be nice to not dump that responsibility on others, what I'm trying first is to rerun conversations in my head, maybe even mutter them out loud, in order for me to absorb what other people are trying to tell me.
I am appreciating having a name for this, and more than that. I have often giving up trying to make people understand---being understood feels like a bridge too far. And pain that is chronic, especially emotional pain obscures my reporting of physical pain and it has come out in weird ways, like the time after a blood test, when my family doctor said to me, "You have arthritis, it shows up in your bloodwork...you've never complained of it..." and I told him, "it comes and then it goes, and because I know it will go away again, I just wait for it to go away and then I forget it until it comes back." I find I am often only really exhausted by the things I can't control. The only way I can explain it to somebody is to say, "look, that's the least of my problems!"
Can you please make a video with advice on how autistic people can leave an unhealthy relationship?
Of all term choices, why 'double empathy'? Nothing about that implies the most important aspect of the intended meaning, which is a disconnection or disparity in personal experience and perspective.
Anyway, everyone's relating their own experiences so here's mine:
I've been facing these 'Cassandra' scenarios all my life, either with people not being able to meet my need for more information or others bullying their way through my comfort zones, so I just grew up and had all my nurtured instincts forcibly changed to work around other people and tolerate them, eventually also adding on the highly-intensive task of 'managing' other people however I can in a way that doesn't breach my sense of ethics.
And of course it eventually caused me to crash and burn. So many people, including professionals in the mental health industry, that I had talked to had barely anything useful for me. All the relatives that tried 'talking sense' into me, giving advice or pushing me to do this or that just didn't understand. Wasn't until I was 30 that I even got diagnosed with autism, and even then some medical professional had some fairly harmful things to say to me. I kid you not, as someone with noise sensitivity issues, I was told by a hospital psych that what I needed to not be f'ed up by noise issues was unrealistic and I should just get used to it.
--
As I've grown older I've found more people who are more sensitive to other people's issues, but in general it's still my default instinct to treat other people as unreliable and of limited positive sociability, and the only viable way to have my sense of comfort break even is to forcibly exert control to reduce the chance of bad interactions. This leaves me closed off and distant to most people, even if I smile and am exceedingly polite. It takes me way too long to trust.
In my relationships I have to clearly and firmly state my boundaries, and follow through with whatever negative response is necessary to reinforce boundary breaches.
But I've found that there's typically a correlate with IQ and social compatibility, likely because it's a learning exercise and requires more logical processing than emotional thinkers are willing or able to casually employ. And as such some people are just impossible so I keep them as closed off as possible to anything in my life that they might harm.
thank you. i just had an epiphany about my life. you are defintely my mentor. im going back to a mutual need for non verbal with my ..person i love. it was working before, and then i figured i should act like evryone else. but he is like us, and i dont know where i got the idea to be anyone else.
As a NT married to an NT, emotional sharing is not the same as asking for change. If I feel overwhelmed, anxious, sad or whatnot, that can be shared with my spouse, but I cannot expect him to change his behaviors based on my emotional perceptions. Where people get into to trouble is when they believe emotional sharing=change in their partner, OR that expectations are the same as emotions
Emotions are a physical sensation that our brains interpret as either pleasurable or uncomfortable. There can be an association between other people’s behaviors and our emotional discomfort, but it’s really important to learn to self regulate and process our emotions before asking for our partners or friends to change. I can’t say with confidence that ALL people struggle to be heard if what “hearing” means is change in another person.