The Technological Society - with Ted Lewis

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  • Опубліковано 5 лют 2025

КОМЕНТАРІ • 149

  • @afarwiththedawning4495
    @afarwiththedawning4495 Рік тому +54

    Reading Ellul is what broke me of my false belief in unfettered technological progress and for that I am very grateful to him.

    • @AjNotsri
      @AjNotsri 3 місяці тому

      Ellul is great! One of my first as well. I wrote my thesis based off his propaganda analysis methodologies grounded in Continental existential psychology and the problem of the slippery slope of collectivism.

  • @strugglingathome
    @strugglingathome Рік тому +98

    I love how Ted is explaining "symbol" to Jonathan and he just sits there and takes it. 🙏

    • @KevinMakins
      @KevinMakins Рік тому +18

      A humble man.

    • @willismcgee5216
      @willismcgee5216 Рік тому +22

      Perhaps he's explaining it to the audience to give a ground to what he's saying?

    • @christylocke5277
      @christylocke5277 Рік тому +41

      ​@@willismcgee5216yes, the best podcasters understand that they aren't the only two in the conversation, and they are good at making us think we are just a fly on the wall

    • @SampsonAndBeasley
      @SampsonAndBeasley Рік тому +16

      “Repetition is not redundancy” ❤

    • @ottomanbob
      @ottomanbob Рік тому +1

      😂😂😂

  • @miastupid7911
    @miastupid7911 Рік тому +25

    For all those reading this: the woman at the well at Samaria became Saint Fotini, who became a Saint and witnessed Christ to Nero along with her son and her siblings. It is an amazing story.

  • @SamanthaGluck
    @SamanthaGluck Рік тому +23

    You have greatly deepened our family’s faith, Jonathan. Thank you!

  • @redbeard0311
    @redbeard0311 Рік тому +15

    Jonathan! Idk if you'll see this but I want to say thank you! From the bottom of my heart I appreciate and am grateful that you do the work you do. I have come to christianity through your work. Thank you!

  • @shaunkruger
    @shaunkruger Рік тому +8

    That awkward moment around 34:00 where I realize that they’re describing a perennial problem in software development that is manifesting in the permanent proliferation of new tools that solve the same old problems, but with new layers of abstraction that didn’t make anything easier and actually made it harder to get to the core of some problems.

    • @JhoferGamer
      @JhoferGamer Рік тому +1

      what do you think is the solution?

    • @TheEngineerd
      @TheEngineerd Рік тому +2

      Deploying software on different hardware -> docker -> need what's running in containers to work together -> kubernetes -> setting up what's running and how it's running -> helm -> ???

    • @AjNotsri
      @AjNotsri 3 місяці тому

      @@TheEngineerdThis will also present more complex issues because the speed of guided technological progression always outpaces a deep understanding of the beginning of PC tech, DOS to cloud computing and beyond . From an IT Support Specialist position every problem can have a few solutions based on system infrastructure and software in place. The root cause analysis only gets as far as any technicians knowledge and experience allow. Even the most experienced knowledgeable techs out there cannot keep pace with the technical nuances between problems and solutions. Thus is the need for specialists but also in that effort to specialize in order to ground a troubleshooting to problem support there is a loss in understanding the whole movement of technology as a system but also the systems within technology. So in other words the human factor is rarely considered on both end user and professional perspectives. The flaw started back in Genesis but the foundation of technology based on human manipulation (cybernetics) and the use of technology as a means to power is the major flaw. Technology as we know it has only come this far because of man’s fallen nature to want to become his own god in self and not based on an objective creator or at least the benevolent first cause before it made itself known.

  • @andrewbosela764
    @andrewbosela764 Рік тому +49

    We inhabit a world we have built for our machines, and we labor for their health and embodiment.

    • @DJefferson89
      @DJefferson89 Рік тому +8

      That’s a good way to put it 👌🏾

    • @acropolisnow9466
      @acropolisnow9466 Рік тому +10

      Great comment. Incredible actually.

    • @afarwiththedawning4495
      @afarwiththedawning4495 Рік тому +5

      More so we contort and mutate ourselves to "adapt" to the unnatural ways they operate. To the point now that we face loosing all agency of our own and handing it off the the AI. It's a sickness.

    • @andrewbosela764
      @andrewbosela764 Рік тому

      100%
      Our machine gods, made of the same materials and agencies/principalities of yore, demand sacrifice of our humanity.

    • @RunninUpThatHillh
      @RunninUpThatHillh Рік тому +1

      Indeed. I just want to run away.

  • @bionicmosquito2296
    @bionicmosquito2296 Рік тому +6

    Thank you for this conversation. Thank you, Jonathan, for diving into a man with whom your relationship is 50/50. Thank you, Ted, for pointing out that The Abolition of Man and the trilogy are the books for our time.

  • @tensevo
    @tensevo Рік тому +6

    what is encouraging, is that we seem to go through this cycle every 100 years.
    there is a lot of literature on how to deal with what we think of as modern problems, but they are really really old problems.

    • @tensevo
      @tensevo Рік тому +3

      war started in europe almost exactly as the final ww2 veterans have died. coincidence?

    • @naikhanomtom7552
      @naikhanomtom7552 Рік тому

      'nothing new under the sun'

  • @raiynepaige
    @raiynepaige Рік тому +8

    29:30 to 31:00 is a beautiful explaination of authority, glory, and legitimacy of the Nations. Nations AND the Church especially. I love the way you put that together Jonathan.

  • @UNOwenWasMe
    @UNOwenWasMe Рік тому +5

    You don't plaster your own face on all your content like many a narcissist these days (including many of the people you talk to, I might add).
    Keep on the path, keep the message pure, hold the Truth above all else, and the seed will be planted in very fertile soil indeed. Good work.

  • @KairosDBT
    @KairosDBT Рік тому +1

    Fabulous conversation. What a confluence: Johnathan, Ted, and Ellul!

  • @danyack8608
    @danyack8608 Рік тому +4

    "The Technological Bluff" is a very readable follow up to the earlier book, written towards the end of Ellul's life. His study on Propaganda is another classic. Beside "The Humiliation of the Word", "Reason for Being", a meditation on Ecclesiastes, is recommended among his theological works. Finally, his introductions to the early works of his friend Bat Ye'or show his prescience concerning the rise of Islam in the 20th century and the threat inherent toward The West, soon to become blatant. Very much a prophetic figure and shatterer of modern idols.

  • @shari6063
    @shari6063 Рік тому +3

    Great conversation. Thank you both.

  • @sonofphilip8229
    @sonofphilip8229 Рік тому +6

    I'd like to recommend the book "Technology as Symptom and Dream" by Robert Romanyshyn as a fascinating exploration of linear perspective and its effect on the human psyche vis a vis our developing technological world.

  • @Roger-r7s
    @Roger-r7s Рік тому +2

    Jacques Ellul was one of the most profound and brilliant interpreters and critics of the scientific and technological society and radically secularized modernity. He was prophetic in many respects in seeing the negative aspects of what at that time almost universally believed to be good and progressive. We now are suffering some of the negative consequences of these shallow unsophisticated, crude, naive, simplistic, overly linear, expansionist false and dehumanizing mechanistic materialistic ideas regarding progress. Anybody who wants to understand the increasingly technocractic techno utopian order (of every type whether liberal capitalist centrist, fascist or Marxist communist), that we live in today needs to deeply immerse themselves into Elluls understanding of this new reality and artificial, synthetic, illusory, abstracted out of touch with physical reality environment that modernity has made. In other words this is how the post modern age arrived to leave us all in a state of mass delusion, confusion, and virtual reality hallucinations.

  • @KevinMakins
    @KevinMakins Рік тому +4

    The linguistic work is so valuable. Symbol. Parabol. Diabol. Latin put it all out there.

  • @mitchellclark3070
    @mitchellclark3070 11 місяців тому

    Bro! Thank you for bringing the book back into print. I have a copy of it 59 pages in rn.

  • @outoforbit-
    @outoforbit- Рік тому +8

    Great interview with J Ellul.
    It's convenience that makes us surrender to the machine to the extent now that we only believe what's convenient for us.
    I heard a Catholic priest say once that the antidote to the smartphone is adoration of the Eucharist. I attended recently a 40hr adoration, where I attended 2 x one and half hour slots, and without me realising the connection, I had not looked at my smartphone for nearly 3 days.

  • @Richard_Paradise
    @Richard_Paradise Рік тому +4

    ❤👍✝️ I'm at beer number 4. The talk is working on me.

  • @eighteenfiftynine
    @eighteenfiftynine Рік тому +7

    "Technological"? "Society"? "Ted"?... Got kinda excited for a minute there!

  • @No_Ghosts
    @No_Ghosts Рік тому +4

    Whoa crazy synch, Auron Macintyre just did a stream on Ellul. I'd never heard of this guy, and he's suddenly on top of my reading list.

  • @inlightconsulting9456
    @inlightconsulting9456 Рік тому +2

    This is likely the way forward for the church. Once we have shared our stories, we can begin to share together in the story God has for us. Sharing stories is a way for us to transition out of the divisiveness that has characterized the old form while simultaneously building capacity for the transition to the future form.

  • @Witsius
    @Witsius Рік тому +1

    Great stream. Thanks.

  • @denisdenis5609
    @denisdenis5609 Рік тому +9

    Hi, your videos are amazing, i really wanna share this, am i allowed to translate into Ukrainian and post on my channel (of course with giving credits to you?) I won't use your video, I'll only retell your text in my language

  • @EmilyTodicescu
    @EmilyTodicescu Рік тому +6

    17:00 The dark irony of accusing something of being “satanic” is to participate in the principality of accusation itself. Perhaps that’s one reason Ellul treads carefully in this area (as we all should).

    • @eveningprimrose3088
      @eveningprimrose3088 Рік тому +1

      So true. Christians should be aware and wary of carelessly uttering and commenting accusations.

    • @Mamothrept
      @Mamothrept Рік тому +1

      That is a really interesting point to ponder. Do we have any strong examples of godly accusations?

    • @eveningprimrose3088
      @eveningprimrose3088 Рік тому +1

      @Mamothrept a Bible teacher told me just yesterday that the first time the word satan appears in the Bible is when God's angel appears to Baalam. The angel says to Baalam, "I have come to you as an 'adversary'." The word for adversary is (stn, שטנ) (the last letter of the Hebrew word (on the far left) should be the final form, but my keyboard wouldn't accommodate, so sorry). So that is an interesting fact, and an important one too. You can decide what all it could teach us.

    • @eveningprimrose3088
      @eveningprimrose3088 Рік тому

      @EmilyTodicescu my point is that being "a" satan in the biblical sense is not always a bad thing. Nevertheless, we should indeed be circumspect and tread lightly when acting as one.

    • @Mamothrept
      @Mamothrept Рік тому +1

      @@eveningprimrose3088 Thank you for pointing that out. At first glance it appears accusation does have at least some valid moments, although it also seems very rare.

  • @richardvorwald5478
    @richardvorwald5478 Рік тому

    Wonderful explanation of the right relation between Church & State

  • @ibelieve3111
    @ibelieve3111 Рік тому +1

    Thanks

  • @expert12390
    @expert12390 Рік тому +1

    What books would you recommend to get more into philosophy and symbolism?

  • @DerekJFiedler
    @DerekJFiedler Рік тому +2

    Love the Tech Society book and this conversation.

  • @elizacragun4697
    @elizacragun4697 Рік тому +1

    I think Babel illustrates very well what happens to all human endeavors that don't involve God. They fail because of human frailty, specifically lack of humility. The changing of the language is just an outer manifestation of the inner fracturing that takes place without humility. I love how this video ends by pointing out the way to overcome this is to build relational trust on a micro level.

  • @mitchellclark3070
    @mitchellclark3070 Рік тому +1

    Sweet! New books!

  • @DioscuriA85
    @DioscuriA85 Рік тому

    Conversation about technology and society is greatly needed. Technology’s impact is vastly understated in political/religious discourse. I can’t help feeling Jon is taking a position of defending a liberal traditionalist view of modernity. If that’s the case, what are you conserving? What we are now is very far from how we were created and most Christians hold a view that man was originally created perfect. Furthermore, worshipping individual liberation essentially removes the ability of humans to say no technology even if it in the end just changes us. That’s the problem with liberal traditionalists/conservatives and why liberalism is nearly idolatry.

  • @W-G
    @W-G Рік тому +2

    Wow. The realisation of the Agency affecting the whole world down to the individual level exemplified during covid is an eye opener. That exact thing happened here in New Zealand to the point of my 12 year old sister was banned from her athletics club for not getting the jab, yet this WAS NOT mandated! Individuals acted like the state and enforced rules around of what they were being told to do. Incredible.
    Yes my family protested this My Father even got a news reporter to ask our prime minister at the time if she was aware of the kids being banned from sport and she had no idea and seemed surprised that people were enforcing it... lol

  • @SingularitySenses
    @SingularitySenses Рік тому +1

    Where can I learn more about "principalities"? I want to understand how a principality gains control over a country or city.

    • @user-vf7gp1hr9c
      @user-vf7gp1hr9c Рік тому

      By seducing Humans to act and be contrary to God.

  • @Thelaughingpreacher
    @Thelaughingpreacher Рік тому +3

    Jonathan, can you please do a symbolic analysis of Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood?

    • @JDGEmois
      @JDGEmois Рік тому

      That would be so awesome! I second this request.

  • @kathyjanik9122
    @kathyjanik9122 Рік тому +3

    Lewis is awesome and understandable for the mere Christian

  • @tensevo
    @tensevo Рік тому +2

    "technological bluff" is such a good concept. i would normally just say, unintended consequences.....
    what can possibly go wrong with handing all our power, attention and agency over to a fragile top down power?

    • @tensevo
      @tensevo Рік тому

      this reminds me of the hegelian dialectic, in that, technology solves some problems but it creates more problems than it solves, so it has to solve those problems too, and before you know it you have an atheist technocracy dictatorship of technology, which is what the nazi and soviet states were. where the false god, is the state, and the human is but an insect.

  • @joba9424
    @joba9424 Рік тому +1

    Is there any mention of "Anti-Tech Revolution" (2016) in this conversation?
    If so, will someone please share a timestamp?🤞
    Much appreciated.

  • @NeanderthalWoman-ou8ev
    @NeanderthalWoman-ou8ev Рік тому +3

    The words "dialogue" and "honest conversation" have both been ruined by Critical activists in academia and workplace training. These terms now mean verbally abusing the person who engages in wrongthink until they submit. Whenever I hear someone say, "We need to have an honest conversation about ...", I know they mean, "I need to yell at you about...". I have the same reaction to the word "dialogue" unfortunately.

  • @clayc1287
    @clayc1287 Рік тому +2

    Technopoly by Neil postman is very relevant here

  • @Илья́Впрямь
    @Илья́Впрямь Рік тому +1

    I don’t know what church father said it but those last remarks reminded me of the saying, “if you understand the cross, you understand all things.”
    Christ bless ☦️

    • @ButterBobBriggs
      @ButterBobBriggs Рік тому +4

      "He who knows the mystery of the cross and tomb, also knows the essential principles of all things" - St. Maximus the Confessor

  • @raiynepaige
    @raiynepaige Рік тому +2

    I’m curious as to what the meaning of “mainline denominations” is. As in US’s mainline? Like Protestant?

    • @ButterBobBriggs
      @ButterBobBriggs Рік тому +2

      Episcopal, Lutheran, Methodist, Presbyterian - older denominations that dominated the church world in America. The opposite of them in America now is the rock and roll and latte non-denominational mega-church.

    • @j.g.4942
      @j.g.4942 Рік тому

      @@ButterBobBriggs Mainline is also used as an opposite to Confessional, in that sense 'mainline' means conformed to the 'mainline' of society/culture.
      In Southern America the Roman Catholics could be considered 'mainline'; but in English language areas it's primarily the Anglican/Episcopal/Presbyterian/Methodist traditions (all those born/formed on the island of Great Britain).
      I think the ELCA are lumped in there because of their communion with the Church of England, but in the Germanic lands the distinction is traditionally 'state church' or 'free church' rather than 'mainline/evangelical' or 'mainline/confessional'; yet that just tells about their relationship with the government rather than a theological/cultural leaning

  • @praypetsrraptured2506
    @praypetsrraptured2506 Рік тому +6

    You spoke of facts written in fiction in order to get the point across. This made me think of a very pertinent book recently released, called Earth Fall by Stuart C. Best. Absolutely nothing but fact written in fiction form. If only more were able to see the horrors the next few years will bring on the whole world.

  • @TwoHighways
    @TwoHighways 8 днів тому

    Unfathomably based!

  • @andrewrackliff8223
    @andrewrackliff8223 5 місяців тому

    RIP Ted Lewis.

  • @abdielInzunza
    @abdielInzunza Рік тому +3

    A critique of Ted Kaczynski would be interesting.

  • @sparrowsparrow4197
    @sparrowsparrow4197 Рік тому +3

    Dear family have you read," the inescapable love of God"? It is heart enlarging, heart warming, mindblowing and greatly enables us to walk in the spirit.....which is Saving Love

  • @eveningprimrose3088
    @eveningprimrose3088 Рік тому +1

    I began to have insights several years ago from reading the prophetic literature of the Bible that when Jesus returns, and before or with the commencement of the Millennium, the world will go back to a low-tech environment. I think we will be agrarian again and much more connected to the natural world. No more fast, mechanized travel and immediate, electronic communication, etc.

    • @tensevo
      @tensevo Рік тому

      i think the world will faction, into self sufficient, versus, a highly ordered technocratic top down dictatorship, these two factions will war, and then we will be back to traditional

  • @murphysmuskets
    @murphysmuskets Рік тому +2

    Almost thought the title card read “With Ted Kaczynski” 😅

    • @Janus10001
      @Janus10001 Рік тому

      Kaczynski read Ellul. Draw your own conclusions.

    • @No_Ghosts
      @No_Ghosts Рік тому

      wouldn't it be hilarious if the more advanced AI becomes, the more it resembles Uncle Ted

  • @tensevo
    @tensevo Рік тому

    the image of the holy Jerusalem, nothing is destroyed, but given up to a higher order.
    for example, a nation is not destroyed to create a world regime, but rather, nations give themselves up to a higher authority (not a terrestrial authority).

  • @millimilk-no9nx
    @millimilk-no9nx Рік тому +2

    Jonathan could you make a video about the role of a woman in a Christian Orthodox marriage? Are we supposed to work for example? Can your husband demand of you to work? What are we supposed to do when it comes to children etc

  • @ejenkins4711
    @ejenkins4711 Рік тому

    Indeed seems jung found the nail is it made of glass

  • @keithjohnsonYT
    @keithjohnsonYT Рік тому

    Why am I reminded of our sin-nature and Smokey Robinson singing, “just to see her” at the same time?
    (Who asked you Bon Jovi?!)
    🤷‍♂️
    🙏

  • @todmann67
    @todmann67 Рік тому

    Just listened to an episode of Auron and his guest covered this author as well.

  • @ZAYA2227
    @ZAYA2227 Рік тому

    PB: 34:33 People now belive the purpose of life is to live a life of pleasure and opulence and that collecting money should be the sole purpose of life

  • @NeanderthalWoman-ou8ev
    @NeanderthalWoman-ou8ev Рік тому +2

    Unfortunately, they have also ruined the word "story." Only people in favored identity groups (deemed oppressed) are allowed to share their stories, and they are allowed to make sweeping generalizations from them ant no one can challenge them. People in disfavored identify groups (considered oppressors) are not allowed to refer to their own stories (their "lived experience"), because as members of disfavored groups, they are not seen as having anything worthwhile to say and are actually not considered proper humans at all. Their stories represent nothing but a threat to the oppression narrative.
    A few years ago, I would have loved to hear of people sharing their personal stories as a basis for dialogue. Now, unfortunately, that sentence bristles with red flags.

  • @CaptainDJ_VT
    @CaptainDJ_VT Рік тому +2

    I love how artificers are biblical. The Bible is so big an influence for table -top games

  • @patrickvernon4766
    @patrickvernon4766 Рік тому

    I’m not totally bought in and convinced of Christianity so why is it an idol when it’s a pagan thing but it’s integrity when it’s a christian image?

    • @EmilyTodicescu
      @EmilyTodicescu Рік тому +1

      I lean more Protestant, so I can’t give you a detailed apologetic on the Christian use of icons. However, I’m fairly confident that it doesn’t involve necromancy, in contrast with the pagan traditions (which seem to be steeped in necromancy). I would suggest looking up “the opening of the mouth ritual” in the context of the ancient pagan traditions to support this position.

    • @naikhanomtom7552
      @naikhanomtom7552 Рік тому

      Christians don't worship Icons. Simple really.

  • @thesecondlawandthetowerhou6026

    34:00 Positive feedback loop of utilitarian LH connecting nicely to too much silly optimism

  • @zachvinka6764
    @zachvinka6764 Рік тому

    Who allows thirst beyond parched into delusion to know rule over self.

  • @micahjobbins7041
    @micahjobbins7041 Рік тому

    👍

  • @ninasimpson7669
    @ninasimpson7669 Рік тому

    We have to admit that there is an immeasurable distance between all that we read in the Bible and the practice of the Church and of Christians.
    Jacques Ellul

  • @TheLincolnrailsplitt
    @TheLincolnrailsplitt Рік тому

    As soon as I heard "what you might call a dialectical perspective", my eyes glazed over.😫

  • @BkobDmoily
    @BkobDmoily Рік тому

    Shoutout to Christian Anarchism, that's my schtick!

  • @lzzrdgrrl7379
    @lzzrdgrrl7379 Рік тому

    I thought Ted Lewis was a 1920's band leader...... oh. wait, Tom Holland.....'>......

  • @notloki3377
    @notloki3377 Рік тому +2

    french thinkers are the most tortured souls, i swear. the concept of agency isn't that hard to map as long as you use yourself as the drawing board.

    • @notloki3377
      @notloki3377 Рік тому

      french thinkers grapple with things like subjectivity and meaning, or largely have for the last hundred years or so. they're tortured because their philosophy is based on a paradox: you must understand me, you will never understand me. this is mostly because the people who started this french deconstructionist existentialist movement were gay pedophiles: see foucalt and sartre.
      transpersonal agency is the answer to their question, but it's a phenomenological answer and not a semantic answer. phenomenology requires you to trust yourself, which they can't do because 1.) they're still enlightenment thinkers and 2.) they're gay pedophiles.@ednabonyo

  • @aprilhottinger
    @aprilhottinger Рік тому

    I understand now why graven images, offend God, because the heathen communicate with graven image

  • @grmalinda6251
    @grmalinda6251 Рік тому

    In Jesus Christ the lion lays down with the lamb.

  • @_PanchoVilla
    @_PanchoVilla Рік тому +1

    Pageau get off your high horse and realize peterson exposure isnt going to take you to new heights. You're a supporting cast member barely mentioned in the credits.

    • @goob-hm3jw
      @goob-hm3jw Рік тому +9

      Damn bro, you've got some resentment building. Better turn the valve before the pressure builds and you explode 😅

    • @_PanchoVilla
      @_PanchoVilla Рік тому

      @@goob-hm3jw I'm good bro

    • @goob-hm3jw
      @goob-hm3jw Рік тому +5

      @@GrantBerger-jc7ks I know, right? Sometimes all people can see is a man standing in a barren field and they forsake him for lack of fruits. Little do they know that hundreds of thousands of seeds are sown beneath his feet. 🤷

    • @thesecondlawandthetowerhou6026
      @thesecondlawandthetowerhou6026 Рік тому

      There is often a point.

    • @_PanchoVilla
      @_PanchoVilla Рік тому

      @@goob-hm3jw I didn't know there was a cult following in here

  • @nigeljoseph5472
    @nigeljoseph5472 11 місяців тому +1

    For over a decade now, I have thought of Ellul's Technological Society as the most important book I have ever read. He is far more interesting and honest than Heidegger, and more penetrating than Mumford. I like Marcuse a lot, but Ellul is more philosophical. Marcuse cannot free himself from the Marxist faith in technology, even in One Dimensional Man, his best book. Ellul sees technology as it really is, a completely destructive force. His message is bleak. We have already been so transformed by technology (like Haraway's cyborgs) that there is no real going back. We must bear honest witness to the power of technology and wait for better days.

  • @killharryclinton9312
    @killharryclinton9312 Рік тому +1

    I cannot wait for the encounter between Ellul and JBPeterson.

  • @richardvorwald5478
    @richardvorwald5478 Рік тому +2

    Wonderful explanation of the right relation between Church & State

  • @richardvorwald5478
    @richardvorwald5478 Рік тому +1

    Wonderful explanation of the right relation between Church & State