Check out my makeup video here: ua-cam.com/video/BruSe3-bFGM/v-deo.html Source and Further Reading / Watching: ua-cam.com/video/qIwjxOqd_ro/v-deo.html ua-cam.com/video/ba0VovuB0WI/v-deo.html ua-cam.com/video/PzBPEgnwM34/v-deo.html ua-cam.com/video/Z9Fl4ZIxO7I/v-deo.html ua-cam.com/video/RB7wZePFYQQ/v-deo.html ua-cam.com/video/HVsdI7JaeWk/v-deo.html ua-cam.com/video/a8UAi68qKX0/v-deo.html ua-cam.com/video/1MSqroUlMFQ/v-deo.html&ab_channel=ZelphOntheShelf ua-cam.com/video/dF_0K16QjFw/v-deo.html&pp=ygUOZnVuZGllIGZyaWRheXM%3D #ChurchToo: How Purity Culture Upholds Abuse and How to Find Healing - Emily Joy Allison Beyond Shame: Creating A Healthy Sex Life On Your Own Terms - Matthias Roberts Pure: Inside the Evangelical Movement That Shamed a Generation of Young Women and How I Broke Free - Linda Kay Klein bit.ly/3P8as7V 0:00 Intro 3:15 Who Are Girl Defined? 10:41 People Can Be Better 15:59 24 Hours With... Men's Modesty! 20:57 Paul Doesn't Like Dav Much 26:27 Behind The Scenes With Kristen and Bethany 44:18 Girl Defined Will Never Apologise 56:48 What Is This? Maturity From Bethany?! 1:06:40 Pushback From Christians 1:21:49 "Dem Haterz" 1:31:52 The Intimate Wife Drama 1:50:10 Everyone Vs Dav
I dont know if others have experienced this, but a fake account under Miss Rachel Oates just replied under my comment wanting to trick me into a telegram chat. I have reported the comment, but I figured I'd let you know here too. Loved the video! ❤️
The intelligence disparity between Dav and Paul make their conversations HILARIOUS to watch. Dav will say something decently insightful and Paul will just be like... but what if ur dumb >:) stop cussing!!
I think Bethany saying that she doesn't want her children to be manipulated into experiencing faith the exact same way she and Dav do and that she wants them to be Christian because that is their genuine belief is the most pleasantly surprised I've ever been by something she's said. The growth in acknowledging, even in just a small way, that she doesn't want her kids to have the same upbringing she had. She still has a very far way to go, but that comment gives me hope that she can deconstruct someday. I'm proud of her for that.
There's a good Prophet of Zod video where he goes through a "Focus on the Family" video which ostensibly claims to support allowing children to choose whichever religious beliefs they find most convincing, but it's layered through with "obviously they only have doubts for emotional reasons" and "they'll eventually reach our conclusion (the right one)". I hope she means it...
Those first steps of deconstruction are *terrifying*. It's like being asked to walk blindfolded onto a frozen lake with no knowledge of how thick the ice is *and take your children with you*. Even with someone holding your hand and lots of supportive friends around, it would be scary. When you've based your whole life around How Dangerous the Frozen Lake Is and most of your support system is giving you horror stories of what happens to people out on the ice, it's amazing she's managed to ease out as far as she has. Most people never manage it.
Dav seems like the only one who has ever actually seriously questioned their faith and it shows. He’s so thoughtful and open and he’s always seemed baseline uncomfortable with the girl defined content. His faith actually feels genuine as opposed to just dogma. I wonder if their marriage will survive dav growing more in (or out of) his faith.
Dave is the average bigoted American Christian. It’s not as if he’s some pro lgbtq pro minority Christian who accepts people who are different than him. I don’t understand why u act as if he’s open minded. He’s never been or claimed to been. You are saying that about him
@@CalebR-zd5ql no one's saying he doesn't have areas in his personal life he may fix or change as he evolves, or, may hold onto which are systemic points of bigotry. What we CAN recognise is out of them all, he is the most analytical, rational, open minded, and willing to fully examine himself - even if it's an uncomfortable or painful process. Remember, us Fundie-kids have grown up with the belief if we so much as question anything or change our views, we're not real Christians and we are going straight to Hell. There is a reason many are fully entrenched in the beliefs. We are taught from the age of a child that *our* eternal soul is threatened if we adapt or change our worldview from theology. That, yes, is why deconstruction is difficult. I am still genuinely terrified I'll go to Hell just because I am having sex with a man outside of wedlock, imagine how I felt upon realising I'm bisexual.
He certainly seems the most Christ-like; Jesus hung out with hookers and lepers, treating queer folk the same as any other people would be in-character.
21:00 - Seeing "Dav's views on cussing do NOT reflect Bethany's or GirlDefined's." immediately before hearing the first half of the most interesting thing I've ever heard Dav say, is pretty funny.
Paul's interactions with Dav really show me that he doesn't have the maturity or intelligence to have a nuanced discussion. If anything, he seems intimidated by Dav's intelligence, so he shuts him down by implying he's stupid for being "too open minded." He also thought this was clever enough to keep in the video like some "owned" moment. This is my issue with Paul in general. He overestimates his own abilities and understanding. He can't handle complex theological discussions like Dav can. My guess is that Paul has watched too many far right "debates" and therefore equates all discussion as something that you win. Your partner is an opponent to be defeated, crushed. So when Paul couldn't come up with complex ideas, he resorted to insults because that makes him "win." This is why I genuinely believe Paul doesn't want to challenge his beliefs. He wants to reinforce his own beliefs by "winning." After all, he believes he is genuinely correct, so winning against other Christians will be easy. I could be wrong, but this is certainly how I interpret Paul's behaviour and intentions.
He reminds me of the very stereotypical masculine-jock type guys who hide behind their extroversion and brusque attitudes. Now, I'm not saying men can't be stereotypical masculine-jock type guys, gender expression is a gradient and we love it all. But the problem with this end is when it's used for the purpose of competitiveness, denigrating, superiority, and a barrier against any criticism of harm. Dave is a good example of being a 'nerd brain in a jock guy' and is swimming his way through what he's been taught on What It Means to be A Christian Man. It's not about winning, it's about dissecting. That's where him and Paul differ, because Paul as you said, comes across as the average conservative male whose conviction comes from a place of 'correctness' rather than 'understanding and conclusiveness.'
Why would Paul want to change? He's got a wife who seems to bend to his every whim. I mean, it looks like that made Morgan an airheaded child, at least externally, which I couldn't deal with in a partner. But he's got what he thinks are benefits so he's working overtime to keep the status quo. That's why he has to win; Dave is quite literally a threat to what Paul sees as a way of life. I think being competitive is fine...as long as you can admit defeat. If Paul thinks this is some sort of game that he needs to win, that's okay. I mean, I'm allergic to competition so I don't get it, but Paul needs to be grown up enough to say, "huh, you know Dave...I see your point. I have to think on this topic more." The problem, like you said, is Paul isn't capable of this. And what better way to win when you lose than to simply destroy your enemy. It's the best of both worlds to Paul. What he's NOT thinking about is how doing that will rot every relationship he has. It's going to get really lonely for him if he keeps this shit up.
The way he keeps looking around the park as if he expects people to be watching him as he goofs off around the 1:20:50 mark just screams "wasn't good enough for daddy". I would honestly feel sorry for him if he weren't so aggressively smug and bigoted.
I love how Paul and Morgan keep asking both Bethany and Dave leading questions that make it clear they don't respect their different beliefs (like gotcha questions) but Bethany and Dav have such a deeper and more mature understanding of the issues that it just makes the education/critical thinking difference between the two couples
Hope this doesn't sound disrespectful, but Bethany is a very interesting case study on the effects of purity culture and how deeply ingrained those believes are. As Rachel says, you see a lot of moments where Bethany seems to have a breakthrough about some of the harmful stuff she grew up with, but then the 'programmation' kicks back in. What gave me pause was the part in the video that they discussed 'oh no is bethany turning into a feminist', because there you can clearly see her backtrack on certain things. It becomes obvious how Paul and Morgan being there kind of works in this way of 'keeping her in check. Reminding her of her place as a christian influencer not a feminist'. Last thing that bothered me was the fact that paul always seems to pull everything into the ridiculous: the exaggerated clapping, pulling silly faces, the belitteling comments. He makes it clear that he thinks he's better than anyone else. It's so annoying to see someone behave like that
I've seen clips of just Bethany and Morgan talking before, and they actually felt like pretty normal friends with Morgan talking about her fertility journey and Bethany being sympathetic. Morgan even made Paul come off better than he usually does talking about how he supported her through that. But, man, Paul is terrible around other men. I really think he's insecure about his own masculinity and so he gets jealous really easily of other men.
I’ve seen chinks in Bethany’s religious armor. She covers them quickly but they are there. They won’t go away. And once she sees that Dav, the person she loves, remains the same good person and doesn’t become possessed by the devil in the middle of the night in spite of not being a Christian I think there will be less covering up of those chinks and there will more exploring of her belief system. I’m cautiously optimistic about her future now than ever before. She’s actually shown a huge amount of growth by just accepting Dav’s decision.
Agreed. Give me 24 hours with Morgan though, I think I could show her definitive proof that god is not the sex police, and everything Paul does is with ill intent and that’s what god is really warning against. I always saw it as judging the soul. And the soul is energy. And energy is science. And energy doesn’t die. So, if God created everything he doesn’t have to look back and judge every sin and add it up. He can see if your energy is positive or negative. This is the whole concept of all sins are the same in the eyes of the lord. If you have premarital relations with someone out of love…. Well, that’s not a negative action. If you marry someone just to have relations with them and then abuse and shame them for their whole life…. Well, I think you can see my point here.
I commented on Rev Jen’s video about this that it came across as an intervention for Dav rather than an attempt to get to know Bethany. The focus on Dav seems so much more intense than the conversations with Bethany.
Good on Bethany for not wanting to control Dav's thoughts or preventing him from questioning and exploring his thoughts. I hope that doesn't change (despite her "friends'" leading questions).
Dav actually seems likes such a thoughtful intelligent guy. He held his own but I felt bad for him when the others seemed to all gang up a bit. I’m interested to see if he ends up deconstructing in the future. I also really enjoyed listening to his take on The Barbie Movie
@@shelby6 Dave is a conservative Christian. That group is not a cult. Tens of millions of Americans think just like Dave and are conservative Christians. He chooses to be a bigot. I grew up around conservatives and me and many people I know of chose to be pro lgbtq. It’s possible
@@shelby6 you’re delusional if you feel bad for these bigoted privileged people. I grew up around conservative Christians my whole life and I don’t feel bad for them when they choose to constantly be offensive and disrespectful to minorities around them. We deserve the empathy not them. You’re completely misguided. But the ones that care about minorities will give us that respect
Bethany's glowing discussion of Dav's pursuit of authenticity in his faith and how she has complete faith (heh) in his ability to help raise their children properly is so beautiful to me. Morgan's dismissiveness...wow.
I find it fascinating and impressive that Dav has so much compassion for an internet mob that's been declaring him gay for like a decade now. And Bethany's self-awareness that Dav is better liked than her for some reason, but she can't see that the difference is compassion, empathy, open-mindedness, non-judgment for people choosing their own path.
To be fair, she probably felt like people liked her sisters more than her while she was growing up too. At least I've definitely seen more people say they prefer Kristen over Bethany when they did Girl Defined together. And that had very little to do with Kristen being more compassionate than Bethany. Moreso that Bethany was the loud and awkward one of the sisters.
i am a dave stan. he genuinely made the best arguments for himself that someone could’ve made in this dreadful 3 vs 1 situation. i would’ve simply cried
It’s ironic that you use lgbtq lingo to uplift a man that is against queer rights. People saying they Stan/love conservative white Christian men just proves how they still are at the top of the hierarchy.
It’s ironic that you use lgbtq lingo to uplift a man that is against queer rights. People saying they Stan/love conservative white Christian men just proves how they still are at the top of the hierarchy.
@@mikalcarruthers It’s ironic that you guys use lgbtq lingo to uplift a man that is against queer rights. People saying they Stan/love conservative white Christian men just proves how they still are at the top of the hierarchy.
I commented this on another video but if still BAFFLES me that Bethanie gave such an insightful and genuine speech about her love and respect for Dav and Morgan responded in the DUMBEST way possible. Nothing but judgement. No critical listening or thinking. Just WELL THATS UR DUMB HUSBAND. Truly embarrassing tbh. I’m a known Bethanie hater but she and Dav mopped the floor with P&M
I think Bethany is smarter and more emphatic than she seems bc she has been so brainwashed. Women in her religion is often told to listen too men and not think for themself, so Dave have probably pushed her too see things in a different way.
imma be real, i think i could actually have a conversation with bethany without immediately having to immolate myself. it'd be painful, but she at least comes across as a normal person. PAUL, however. wow. the way he whoops and jumps around and acts like a sexist-ass jock but also a humorless stuck-up bigot....it really gets to me. i feel like he would immediately talk over me about how right he is, the second i opened my mouth. its kind of baffling how much i hate his whole vibe. morgan too, to a lesser degree. she acts a lot "cooler" than the GD girls, but its all negated by the fact that shes married to paul and supports him and his views, even when he actively undermines her agency and personhood.
In fundie circles, feminism is the other f word. It might be worse than the four-letter one. I would be surprised if Bethany doesn’t at least get there eventually and understand at least white feminism, even if she can’t bring herself to say she’s a feminist. I only say this because I know first hand how hard it is to go from fearing and hating feminism and what it stands for to being a full blown feminist who’s fully deconstructed and gone atheist (it took me almost as many years to stop saying I was agnostic as it took me to say I am a feminist). The growth Bethany has demonstrated based on conversations in this video says she’s definitely interrogating her beliefs and even growing up a bit. But she is very immature and naive about so many things. She’s also caught up in putting on a show for the world to try to maintain their income and clinging to her bigoted beliefs is part of that. I’m not expecting her to become an ally to the 2SLGBTQIA+ community anytime soon, though I hope they all figure out how damaging their hateful views are. The fact Dav swears is hilarious. I got a vibe from Paul that he was feeling a bit like he couldn’t measure up to Dav in terms of pure Biblical knowledge, and I noticed he didn’t push Dav too hard on that topic. I think he was scared he’d look like a fool.
I feel like one day Dave will get too comfortable on camera one day and he will slip up and say some slur. I grew up around his demographic and slur saying is common
I can also confirm that it can take a while to finally feel comfortable calling yourself a feminist even if your beliefs broadly align with feminism. It's a bit of a boogie man in those circles so it can take a while before you stop saying things like, "I'm not a feminist, but..." or, "I believe _____ but I'm still not a feminist." Like, I believed that women should have equal rights, equal pay, should be able to work outside the home, can even be the main breadwinner if that's what works for their dynamic, don't need to be subservient to their husbands, don't even need to get married or have kids, that patriarchal ideals are harmful to both men and women, that gender norms are rubbish, that women can be pastors and teach men, that no one is "asking for it" with the way they dress, that women face more oppression and discrimination due to their gender than men do, etc. but I still wouldn't have called myself a feminist. Not to mention, that all of those ideas evolved over time. What a lot of people don't seem to understand is that deconstruction is a process and not everything is going to change at once and the order they do change might not make a lot of sense to an outside observer. There were times during my deconstruction when I would have voiced homophobic ideas when in the company of other Christians while I was actually beginning to see queer folks in a more sympathetic light and that it's a lot more ok and natural (beautiful, even) than I had been raised to believe. Sometimes even just to soften the blow of what I was saying like, "Maybe the Bible isn't as clear on extramarital sex as we traditionally tend to think. BuT iT's StiLL cLeAr on GaY sEx ThOugh" I feel like people who have never had to go through that, underestimate how hard it is to express those ideas when you're still processing them. Like, I remember, while still holding on to some homophobic ideas myself, trying to explain to my mom that no, me cutting my hair short was NOT a sign that I was questioning my gender and no, it's not because I have lesbian and bisexual friends because first of all, it's not contagious and second of all, sexual orientation and gender are two different things. Although, tbh, I am bisexual, so maybe it is contagious 🤪
@@CalebR-zd5ql ya, I grew up around them, too. I hadn’t thought of it but that definitely tracks. That would definitely not be hilarious. I guess it’s one way for him to not be the favourite anymore.
It's kinda heart-warming to see Beth and Dav's interaction, especially contrasted with Paul and Morgan. It looks like they've come a long way and learned to understand each other more and become each other's support system. It makes me really happy to see them like this.
As a person who deconstructed from fundamental Christianity and have landed outside of the Christian faith, I can unaquivically say that while I was deconstructing and people asked me hard questions that would put me farther away from the "in-group", I would back pedal a little. I would pander to stay connected with the people I have always been connected to. Even if I disagreed with it, I would answer what they wanted to hear to protect myself. I was already viewed as someone with outsider views but just not enough to be completely rejected. It's an intense fear of being ousted, of being cut off from the people you truly love and respect. When I reached a point in my deconstruction that I couldn't engage without being ousted, I WAS rejected. I left the church and the people I loved the most cut me out of their lives. I was not contacted or asked to hang out anymore. I lost everything except for myself and my husband and kids. All of my connection and belonging was lost, and I've had a hell of a time rebuilding. It's hard, and no one just chooses to deconstruct. It is an unstoppable tide that eventually engulfs you and you have to swim...or you drown. I feel so bad for Bethany because I can see myself, and I know where this path leads. She might not end up an agnostic atheist like me, but she will eventually get to the point where she will loose people that she loves, and there will be walls built to protect the "real" Christian faith from her changing beliefs. I am cheering for her because I've been there and I have reached the other side of it and I am really, really much happier than I ever was within the Christian faith.
I wish Bethany would watch these videos in full, instead of just a few clips sent in by her peers that may have you disagreeing. You give such positive insight and she would benefit so much hearing the praise you give her when deserved
I've seen a couple of videos that both have the same response when Bethany says something about "They want us to move away from scripture." That we don't care if they are Christian or not, we just want them to have less hateful views. Unfortunately, they are in a place where they see those hateful views as integral to Christianity. So to them saying "Be more accepting of LGBTQ+" is equivalent to saying "Stop being a Christian."
This! Maybe someday they’ll fully deconstruct, especially if they follow their own beliefs of submitting to your husband and Dave deconstructing now will Bethany?
Idk, man, in America bigotry is pretty central to Christianity. Being less bigoted and being less Christian are kinda one in the same. We should encourage people to do both
@@georgelilly1847historically it has just not worked for societies to straight up push away from a religion, it always needed more time and the freedom to do so, and usually it came hand in hand with just teaching kids in school about the scientific approach, and the religious approach can be appreciated kn private, with family and loved ones, where these things probably also matter more than anywhere else...
1:32:00 - Bethany has the vibe of a teenager who's just finally coming around to the idea of viewing herself (and her partner) in a comfortably sexualised mature way. But like... 10-20 years late because religious infantilisation.
I've gone from making fun of her years ago to just genuinely feeling bad for her. She didn't get to choose to be sheltered and brainwashed from a young age. And now, as an adult, shes having to learn everything she was never taught or exposed to and you can see how hard it is for her to question her own beliefs. I honestly hope they can continue to make progress, Bethany and Dave don't seem like bad people, just really lost.
Having grown up in a very religious Muslim family in a Muslim country, I'm finally now at 23 in my first relationship, even holding hands feels like a crime, I've come a long way now but i'm still barely unwrapping all the religious trauma I was brainwashed into all my life. The guilt and the shame are extremely hard to shake off, but it's so freeing and worth it. I feel for Bethany in a way and I truly appreciate Rachel's never-ending empathy when making her videos!!
You can tell how good Dave has been for Bethany. She seems so much more comfortable with the uncertainties and the reality of the world, rather than closing down anything that challenges her worldview in the slightest. Good on her PS: Anyone else really concerned for Morgan? Paul seems extremely dumb and egoistic, which is always a dangerous combination
Definitely, Morgan to me seems like she’s on some sort of drug or medication, maybe she really acts like that normally but her sitting next to Bethany and Christen makes her look like she’s high as fuck.
watching this whole thing, Paul rubs me in such an awful way. Like besides the ONE genuinely good question he asked towards the beginning, he just seems like almost an instigator. and like maybe he’s TRYING to drive a wedge between Dave and Bethany. He also tends to almost put Bethany and Girl Defined on this pedestal and then back-handedly make digs at Dave. idk i may just be biased towards Dave, someone please tell me your thoughts. 🫶
no i absolutely agree. even in his videos that are going around asking people questions, it comes across as very instigating. the fact that in this video he was giving so many kudos to girl defined etc "you guys have done X" "you guys inspired us to do Y and Z", and then neglects to congratulate dav in the same way (who has quite a platform to speak of himself!) and just gives little irritated comments his direction makes me think exactly that.
I really, really appreciate your discussion about how we should not reject people for being "not progressive enough." One huge issue with the LGBTQ+ community in particular is the idea that progressiveness and allyship are black and white, that you're just supposed to be a perfect ally right out the gate. I am part of the LGBTQ+ community and It is frustrating to see even small changes get condemned or ignored because they're "not enough." I don't think we should throw a party in the streets because the Pope now allows blessings of same-sex marriages. But I think we can and should acknowledge this IS a good step. I feel like many LGBTQ+ people believe recognizing these things means they aren't allowed to feel anger or frustration or anything like that about, say, the Vatican or Bethany or whatever else. And many people do need more than something like my above example to heal from religion-based trauma. But the issue with holding onto that hostility is twofold. First, change comes slowly and in small steps. We need to welcome these steps when they come, because we don't want to forget what progress we HAVE made. While things still are not good for LGBTQ+ people worldwide, things are still better than they were 20 years ago. Education is more accessible, same-sex marriage is recognized in more places, LGBTQ+ rep in media is more visible than ever. Things are not perfect, but to ignore the progress we HAVE made causes us to lose the plot and that's a net negative for us. Second, two things can be true at once. We can (and again, should) acknowledge the positive steps AND we can still recognize that a person's or institution's actions cause harm. These don't cancel each other out, and recognizing progress does not inherently mean forgiving them or letting them off the hook for all transgressions. It just means you acknowledge their actions. The road to progress is full of so many steps and I think so many people (understandably) want ti to all happen in one giant leap. But it won't, so we have to keep sight of the destination by acknowledging each step we take.
I was thinking the same, I really appreciated this part of Rachel’s commentary and thought it was a wise approach to the issue of creating room for people to grow out of harmful and regressive beliefs.
The *fundamental* (so to speak) problem is that Dave is smarter than all of them and I guarantee Paul does not fully understand half of what Dave said 😭
I feel like a lot of the drama about Bethy’s Thanksgiving post (and her other Intimate Wife content) comes from her poor command of the English language, combined with the restrictions Fundies place on their speech. Her description of what happened - “I asked Dave what his favorite dish was on Thanksgiving and he said “me””- is a world away from “I asked my husband what he was most excited to eat on Thanksgiving…it wasn’t the turkey”. Option A is a cute, flirty exchange between husband and wife, an indirect reference with a wink. Option B is a riddle with only one answer, forcing us all to explicitly, literally picture oral sex. I feel like this happens to Bethy a lot - she doesn’t understand why the things she says make people upset, because she doesn’t understand the nuance of human communication. As she tiptoes outside the Fundieverse to cherry-pick sex-positive ideas that can benefit her personally, she doesn’t know how to incorporate that new language into her existing Fundie-speak. The results remind me of running a sentence through Google translate. Yes, Option A and Option B are technically synonymous. But in reality, their meanings are extremely different.
Interesting perspective, thanks! I've read that some people also speculate whether she might be autistic which would make sense of maybe why she struggles communicationwise.
I personally didn't immediately picture it on reading your quote of it. I think people are just being a bit conservative and squeamish about it. Rachel gets a pass, though, because she's British.
Actually a lot of churches are against it and specifically exclude teaching on it but any teaching condemns it. Her shock isn't performative here unfortunately.
I mean, in fairness, the baptists, anabaptists, Quakers, etc. don’t condone infant baptisms because they believe that it must be someone’s own choice whether they want to be baptized by their church or not. I honestly think that’s a noble value to have, as far as things go.
People baptize their babies because they think they’re saving them from damnation were something happened to them. I was baptized catholic when I was a baby, I also went through catechism and confirmation in my teen years, but now I don’t identify as catholic, being baptized didn’t affect me at all…
I was raised Presbyterian. Baptized as a baby. Now I’m an atheist. I know people who were baptized as a baby and re-baptized later (born again christian). But I think it’s pretty safe to say that most major Christian groups have infant baptisms. I took her shock of it all as a sign of how insular the environment was that she grew up in. We all know their family lives in an echo chamber. Dave even pointed that out to Paul. Lol
It's insane to see this direct contrast between Bethany&Dav and Paul&Morgan. B&D just seem overall more mature and thoughtful and it seems to me that Dav has done a lot of work and introspection to get to this point and some of it has also transfered over to Bethany. Meanwhile P&M still feel like teenagers with their reactions to what the other two are trying to talk about. Paul especially just comes across as a christian frat boy
It sounds like Bethany is starting deconstruction, but doesn't know it. The support coming in to her from other deconstructionists has been incredible.
Morgan is a very frustrating individual. It seems she has chosen to Zombify her brain in service to Paul and to give up any sort of having individual thoughts of her own.
Morgan is mentally ill (self admittedly) and also self admitted to stopping her medication because all she needs is god or something. and in my opinion probably in an abusive relationship with Paul. She really needs help out of this in my opinion. And to make things worse she now has Paul’s baby.
I’ve been waiting for Dave to just fully connect with himself and let it all out. And Bethany will desperately try to recover it. But Dave’s always given me the vibes of someone capable of change of all of them.
It’s interesting that society and people root for conservative Christian men more than the oppressed minorities they vote to subjugate. Comments like these show that in my opinion
@@CalebR-zd5qlpeople root for him because they hope for change with him. They do not root for Paul if you can notice the difference there. If you don’t encourage growth and change in conservative ppl when they show openness to listen then you are closing yourself off to potential future allies in the fight for equality. Yes there are those like Paul who need to be fought, but ppl like Dav can maybe be brought over to the other side and we should encourage that as a society. Contrapoints videos for example deradicalized many men from being Nazi sympathizers and took them over to the left of the political spectrum. This is a good thing for us.
@@CalebR-zd5ql ::whispers:: sometimes it's not all misogyny, and misogyny isn't lurking around every corner at all times. you might find it helpful to see if what you're commenting on is actually misogynistic before throwing aspersions.
1:47:25 Paul was definitely triggered by her laughing that intimacy in marriage isn't always perfect from the beginning. The only way he can cope is randomly insulting? how she looks infront of others, as if a 5ft 8 women is short. I can't imagine what he is like at home because it doesn't seem like he even likes his wife 1:55:09 oh my gosh they don't like eachother, the change in expression from Paul laughing to getting angry so quickly is scary. He blatantly humiliates her infront of others. Morgan is also very passive aggressive about him which just fuels the fire
Oh my goodness, this collab really highlighted how much more open and loving Bethany has become. Like she's still got some work to do but man its good to see. Congrats to her, I hope there's more to come.
Paul is SO blatantly insecure it's straight up annoying and embarrassing.. like figure your issues out bro.. obvi a lot of them probably stem from being fundies or whatever but yikes he's the most cringe out of all of them and that's saying something
Dav sounds very intelligent but seems to be repressed by his environment. Bethany seems like she's more willingly complicit in the fundamentalist hate, but she's also open to growth. I have hopes for these two. Paul, Morgan, Kristen and whatever her husband's name is? I suspect they'll stay where they are, as they've taught themselves to close out any outside thought.
I am posting so many comment but at 1:22:24 I have to pause and say this : I think people are so drawn to content made about girldefined, especially by creators who disagree with them, because after seeing all this hate spewed about them, they need comfort and someone who opposed their oppressive views in a articulated manner. My antidote to transphobia and homophobie is to watch creators debunk these ideas and defend lgbtqia+ people. To me that's why this content attracts so much : we just all need a virtual hug
I have some... doubts about Bethany's motivation for growth, unfortunately. I do agree there has been improvement, and I do agree Dav is a wonderful influence on her. But my take is that her growth is entirely self-motivated. As in she 'grows' when her beliefs and faith rub up against her life. She learns because the black and white views impact HER. So while her takes on things like healthy sexuality and purity have improved, she likely won't improve on lgbtq issues unless she runs into a gay/trans/anything individual that impacts HER. Dav, I think, gets away with influencing her because of her previously held beliefs of honoring her husband. In her mind, he is meant to lead the family, so she can content herself to accept his thinking as the dutiful wife. It's good fortune that his way of thinking is really open and pensive.
I always really appreciate that you still find kind things to say about the people you critique. It shows that you do examine people from all sides and give them a fair chance. Humans are nuanced and it’s great to see an equally nuanced approach.
P and M: "How could we possibly get more insufferable and judgemental?" GD: "YOOOOOOOOUUUUUU RAAAAANG?" These may not be actual quotes, but they should be.
Nah, I don't wish for Dav and Bethany's marriage to end. I hope that they continue to grow and learn from each other and they are putting the work in, which is good, so good on them! They should be the ones who decides on how their marriage should go and nobody else.
This is completely unrelated but I really appreciate the fact that you left in the part where you mentioned having a hard time with your first period with the coil and painful cramps because I related so much and I went through the exact same things for the first six months at least and idk, I felt like I couldn't relate to anyone during that time probably because many of us go through tat silently, so it was nice so see you acknowledge it in a very normal way
I agree! This is a nice contrast to overlyedited and curated Instagram (I don't mean Rachel's, I mean in general), and it's important to have these moments
I *LOVE* what Dav said: If someone says something to you, if you're a person of integrity, you should be able to look past the fact that they don't like you, and consider if what they are saying is true. Brilliant point - one that I'm always trying to integrate into my life.
i feel like christians think us secular folk have an issue with modesty itself when in reality its modesty being a value that we have a problem with. Like I personally dress very modest because I like layering clothes but it’s not a value of mine or something i take pride in ya know? its just my style
@@itssydviciousI don't find this to be true. There are genuinely nice people without weird intentions behind their actions. There is a difference between actually being nice and seeming nice, of course.
@@VirtualRealibriDave is one of those people that I think isn’t genuinely nice. In this video he acts like a normal decent dude but he’d judge a gay couple holding hands in public. At the end of the day he’s still prejudice
Absolutely. A lot of people (especially fundies) seem to think that nice and kind are the same thing, but they're not. Niceness is the way someone acts, but kindness comes from a place of compassion and empathy, and is more a state of being.
Just dropping by to say that I've been given you just a dollar a month on Patreon for a while now. It's not much, merely a token of my appreciation for the work you do, and a fervent desire for you to rise above the shit being flung at you from all angles ❤️
its wild to me that bethany does not realize she IS deconstructing. just because she is still strong in her faith, does not mean she hasn't evaluated and changed her opinions and beliefs that were instilled in her growing up, which is the definition of deconstructing. i think p and m see dav has deconstructed because he has some differing views from them, but refuse to believe that bethany has as well, even though they have talked about her growth with her.
Still early in the video, but the cut from talking about modesty to inane coffee conversation was a pretty solid reminder that Paul and Morgan are the ones editing and posting the footage and they can direct the narrative any way that's convenient for them. And obviously that's not exclusive to them, it's one of the pitfalls of documentary style film-making, but it's worth keeping in mind. EDIT: Moomin spotted!
Paul is 1000% super abusive behind the scenes. I feel so bad for Morgan but can recognize she's basically a willing participant in the nonsense and hatred they spew together
i find it absolutely insane that you guys really think it's okay to jump to these assumptions about people you've only ever seen through a screen and have never interacted with at all. and the thing is, even if paul WAS being abusive, pointing it out like you guys are is literally the WORST thing to do and is making things infinitely worse for morgan
@@愛子-t8n I 1000% agree with you. What do people think, that if Morgan was actually abused, that she one day will come out with this? And don't they not think they will put her in even more danger for accusing Paul of this? If it was true, which I don't even think is, randomly accusing people you only know from the internet is not the way.
Stop saying things like this. I find Paul and Morgan absolutely reprehensible but there is no actual physical evidence that he’s abusing her. It’s incredibly irresponsible to allege something like it’s an undeniable fact when you have nothing to back it up. You could certainly make an argument that he’s manipulative seeing as Morgan used to be much more liberal and Paul’s views are pretty high control. You can even say you think it’s unhealthy that she’s subservient to him, but neither of those two things necessitate actual abuse and until Morgan herself says something like that you should not speculate on it. It is much too serious a claim.
28:14 I’m a therapist. Here’s why I *think* this is happening. I primarily work with trauma survivors, which means that I end up with the occasional narcissistic client who doesn’t know or think that they’re a narcissist. They come to therapy because they don’t know how to cope in a world where everyone disagrees with them, they’re constantly having people insult them, and very few relationships last. They genuinely don’t feel that they could be the cause of this dysfunction, so they sometimes go to therapy to figure out how to deal with everyone in the world being a jerk. It causes sooooo much cognitive dissonance to honestly think and feel “I’m good/right” and also experience the reality that no one seems to agree with you. How do we solve cognitive dissonance? Change our beliefs, change our behaviour, or numb ourselves out with unhealthy coping mechanisms. I’m certainly not saying that she’s a narcissist (I think that’s just a good parallel to blind religious beliefs), but Bethany needs a lot of therapy because the cognitive dissonance of thinking “these values are good” while having thousands of people tell her how harmful they are AND seeing the dysfunction in her own relationships is deeply painful and confusing. At some point, she has to change her beliefs (which we’re already seeing some of), change her behaviour, or dive into the simplicity of “the bible says so” as a coping mechanism. That coping mechanism isn’t working as well as it used to, so….therapy to figure out why life seems to be such a struggle.
1 hour ago was watching the reply to this video by Antibot and was thinking “I hope Rachel’s video will come out soon” and here is it in 40 minutes😍 love you Rachel ❤️
Can we just appreciate Rachel's eyeshadow and shirt? Hunny, you are absolutely gorgeous and your videos are always interesting! Thank you for all your hard work! ❤🧡💛💚💙💜🤎🖤🤍
i wonder how much longer it will take for dav to go fully deconstructed, and if Bethany is capable of doing a little of the same. if not, i don’t see how their marriage can survive for longer than 3 ish years.
Gotta say, I always roll my eyes when these fundies have to proclaim that they’re “Bible-Believing Christians.” To me it sounds like someone shouting out that they’re a “vegetable-eating vegetarian.”
Great video! I can't help but wonder if maybe Dave's arguments/ thoughts kept getting cut because they were better than P&M's and they were concerned that if they were fully left in he'd influence some of their followers. Also, I just want to say I love how you approach conversations about religion and religious influencers. You critique how they use religion to justify harmful beliefs and behaviors without insulting the religion or the average person who believes in it, but doesn't use it to spread harmful beliefs. As a Christian who was bullied by atheists to the point of considering self harm when I was younger and became actually afraid to mention my beliefs to anyone who described themselves as an athiest for a good chunk of my life, you're videos come across as very respectful in how you approach things and have done a lot to help me overcome that fear. So, thank you for the great way you present/tackle these topics!
Oh they're for SURE cutting Dave short because he's saying things they think are out of line. Dave is, allegedly, in standard therapy, not their weird "Christian counseling". If that's true then you can see why he talks and thinks the way he does. He has nuance and is capable of seeing the shades of grey in things. Paul and Morgan and the rest are dogmatic: the book says the thing so that is the ONLY thing. Dave is now able to say, "people say lots of things, let's cut through the noise and get to the heart of it..."
@@ChristopherSadlowski Dave is still a bigot. And not a good person. Y’all hated Shane for being a bigot but you give passes to the man married to a woman? I know you want people to forget that and not talk about it but it’s true
Welp...this crossover is gonna be an insane journey but thanks for making my day a little better. I've been stressed out recently and I'm trying my best to be positive. On that note, I'm glad to go through this nightmare of this Paul and Morgan/Girl Defined craziness with you all. Lord help us
I totally get you, so excited to see this after a long day of statistics and calculus hell. Gonna cook an omelet (read get vegetables into my poor body) and listen to this
Super unrelated but apparently this is my lucky video because I was listening to this while grinding Terramorphous on Borderlands 2 and I actually beat him?? At 1:02:40. That's about the moment that I stopped the video because I was so shocked I couldn't listen any more. I was literally paused on the game menu for 8 minutes straight after killing him! That was the first time I ever beat him, playing the game from childhood to today not once have I accomplished this until now. Thank you so much for reading of my accomplishment! :))))) I'm so excited to finally be able to get a platinum on one of my all time favorite games
Lutheran church is what is the "main religion" in Finland, and it focuses on your own personal faith and belief, not on "spreading the good word". Many people I grew up with were "habit christians", aka some aspects of religion were there (eg. a short night prayer if you were a kid, if even that), but no one professed belief or no one blinked an eye if you said you didn't believe.
@@linnbaardsen9459 another Finn here and YES!!! Also, at least here, it's a very liberal church, with a lot of personal freedom. When visiting Catholic and especially Orthodox churches I actually feel I might/should burst into flames, I never feel like that in the Lutheran ones
I bet there's a lot of interesting footage left on the cutting room floor for this one. I'd love to know what else Dav said that didn't make the final cut.
When we're talking about rehabilitation vs. just casting someone out, I think it's the job of people who weren't raised in the fundamentalist or evangelical movement to rehab these people, if anyone needs to do it. I hear you about their needing to be a route for rehab, and I struggle with that. Because I was abused via evangelicalism though, I don't think I have the compassion necessary to offer kindness. Does that make sense? Basically, i think it's really cool that people like you, and fundiesnark, etc, do this work. You don't have a personal connection beyond interest and a genuine human desire for understanding I'm a survivor of homeschooling and indoctrination and it's a LOT. I'm not the person to offer kindness to folks who are doing harmful work. That said, the recent video about Dav's deconstruction was so relatable and so I really do feel for both of them. I'm just grateful for folks like y'all who ARE actively compassionate, and lead the charge on these things. You are unwavering and kind, Rachel. Thank you. 💜
Getting triggered makes it hard to talk with fundies, absolutely, to say nothing of rehabilitating them. That lack of compassion, though, is something we have to work on. It's a scar of our upbringings and possibly the hardest to get rid of in my experience. The absolute judgement of it all feels foundational to me as a person. It sucks.
I love your cannel, Rachel! I just wanted to say that I really love when you share your personal struggles (periods, mental health, etc) during filming, even if it doesnt relate to the subject of the video, it just makes you feel like a real person and not some manicured perfect image on the screen. It's nice to know that everybody goes through these things, and you present yourself as a genuine person when you do this. Love your content, keep up the great work. ❤
Such a long and enjoyable video again, the research alone must be so much, very impressive, considering the quality. Thank you for giving me a break from life while still critically thinking about stuff, again!
How did I miss this one?? I’ve been gobbling up every “Dave is deconstructing” video I see for the past week! Thanks for this I’m so excited to watch ❤
Orthodox Christian here - I already watched Jen's video on this topic (loved it) and am super excited to watch yours. Here to hear opinions that are different to mine and listen to "the other side" just as you say. I enjoy your nuanced discussions! Dav is like the Christians I know, but I've met a lot of Porgans and Bethanys too and I fully understand the reaction you have to them. God bless!
Loving this content! Really enjoy your in depth analysis and unpacking the "why" and impacts. I wish i had teachers like you at uni, i feel like i would have learnt so much more! ❤️
Paul/Morgan (I suspect Paul) were in Rev Jen’s comments being surprisingly civil but being quite open about Dav coming from a different place than them and not being as reliant on the ‘word’ for his truth. Clearly they’ve marked Dav out for othering which I think is sad as they could learn a lot from him.
If it makes you feel better about rooting for Bethany, I used to be in that same place she is, where i was staying to reckon with the cognitive dissonance i got from the difference between my beliefs and reality and it scared me. I doubled down harder than i ever had when i was with other Christians during this period, bc I was afraid of getting shamed if they sensed i was a fraud. But that was also the closest i got before one day a switch flipped and the house of cards of my belief system collapsed bc realizing and accepting i was wrong entirely was the only way to reconcile all the contradicting beliefs I had been taught. I hope that that's what's happening here
Morgan always makes me think she is in some form high or drunk. Like she tapped out, she seems uninterested in her husband, if not even downright annoyed. And honestly watching Morgan talk makes me sad, especially next to the other two women who seem far more at peace and comfortable in their lives and relationships. I do not agree with Bethany on much (how could I, I'm queer) but there is a love for living in her that shines so strongly when you put her next to Morgan
It feels like maybe Paul and Morgan had an ulterior motive in talking to Bethany and her husband, like they want to influence them towards being more extreme again instead of actually listening. The whole "think about the haters and all the things they say, and they would NEVER accept an apology" kind of stuff. And not including Dave's answers about some things comes across as afraid of showing people his insightful views that they don't agree with
Astounding to hear how much Bethany wants black and white answers to life. DUDE. I thought it was a given, there is no one right way or path for everyone. We each have to find our own way. A dear friend of mine is a Christian, in my opinion her family indoctrinated her. She honestly thought if she followed these certain steps, her adult life would be a breeze. She is pretty happy and has made a good life for herself, but I am sad for her that she didn’t know that we all have to hash out our own answers. It’s HARD! LIFE IS HARD. Psa now over.
I really appreciate how you talk about people, with your understanding and sympathetic outlook on why they think that way and believing in positive progress. Sometimes it is hard to stay that way especially when said people mock your own existence, however I think it is something that I aspire to commit to doing more consciously in my own life or when criticising someone specifically.
just wanted to add some context regarding the difference between american poverty and british poverty: mainly that having a car of any kind is generally rarer in the UK because there's a huge network of trains and other public transit options like biking or walking, so I understand why from that point of view, you would imagine that it requires more wealth to own a car in the US. however, something I feel needs to be pointed out is that rural poverty in the US is very different than city poverty because while you can more easily get to the places you need to go via walking/biking/bus/train in the city, that is simply not possible in many more rural areas. for example, I am middle class, but one of my closest friends growing up was from a quite poor family, and they couldn't often afford things like new clothes or toys for the kids, but because of the area we lived in, they had a car. it was absolutely shit, old af and barely ran, but they did own a car. because as i mentioned, it's basically impossible to live in the rural US without transport because there is no other option. our town did not have busses or trains, it was often too far to bike or walk, so all that's left is spending what little money you do have on a crappy car that breaks down every other week because otherwise you cannot go to work and pay for necessities. I'm not saying that I don't think bethy's view might be a bit skewed as it certainly sounds like her family was a bit more well-off than she'd like to believe, but I also wanted to add context for those of you not in the united states, as to why just owning a car is not in and of itself a reason to think someone has money. edit: 2:02:00 I wanted to clarify that I also think bethy is projecting her insecurities onto dav because I absolutely do not want her to suffer, I very much disagree with a lot of rhetoric she's spouted over the years but I acknowledge that she has matured and grown a lot in that time and I believe that progress can be greatly attributed to dav's influence on her. I like the way he looks at things, especially his faith. I am not a religious person, I am an atheist in fact, but I respect that dav has actually done the work to dig into not only what he believes but WHY he holds certain beliefs because I'm so sick and tired of christians especially fundies, who go around saying nonsense without ever actually doing any fact-checking or basic education on their own religion. that does NOT mean that I want their family or bethy to suffer due to a difference in specific religious doctrines, I don't wish their family to "fall apart," but I do very much prefer dav if choosing between him and bethany. paul and morgan however...i don't wish them to suffer, but i don't think they should be married. I'll say that much. I've seen how they interact and it's passive aggressive at best. bethy and dav though I think actually seem to have a genuine love and compassion for each other and at least try to work out their differences in a much healthier way, whereas paul and morgan seem like pissed off roommates who got stuck doing a class project together when they don't even like each other.
what's funny is I have BPD and "black and white thinking" is something we have to train ourselves out of because it's considered one of the bad traits we tend to have lol. It's 'all or nothing' thinking and it does take some retraining to get out of but it's kind of funny that Bethany thinks is a good thing.
Interesting parallel and glad to hear that you’ve been able to work on more nuanced thinking patterns. Are there strategies that you that found most helpful? I’m curious about how translatable the approaches for BPD are to fundamentalist indoctrination, from your perspective.
I think you're so right about the differences in motivation between Girl Defined (or Bethany, at least) and Paul and Morgan. And I think that's why the 24 Hours series is always gonna be a bit of a disappointment, because P&M were never going into it with the intention of being open-minded or genuinely listening to anyone else's views
I think the conversations, especially between Dave ad Paul, are probably cut because Dav is able to prevent Paul from talking over him, and makes a full point. Paul can't lose, especially on camera. His head would explode.
Your last video was so crushing learning about your experience is unfortunately relatable and so sad I hope things get better for you we love your work never stop being your authentic self
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#ChurchToo: How Purity Culture Upholds Abuse and How to Find Healing - Emily Joy Allison
Beyond Shame: Creating A Healthy Sex Life On Your Own Terms - Matthias Roberts
Pure: Inside the Evangelical Movement That Shamed a Generation of Young Women and How I Broke Free - Linda Kay Klein
bit.ly/3P8as7V
0:00 Intro
3:15 Who Are Girl Defined?
10:41 People Can Be Better
15:59 24 Hours With... Men's Modesty!
20:57 Paul Doesn't Like Dav Much
26:27 Behind The Scenes With Kristen and Bethany
44:18 Girl Defined Will Never Apologise
56:48 What Is This? Maturity From Bethany?!
1:06:40 Pushback From Christians
1:21:49 "Dem Haterz"
1:31:52 The Intimate Wife Drama
1:50:10 Everyone Vs Dav
❤❤
Make up's not my thing, but the new look is fab, really goes with your hair and the groovy shirt!
Nice one!
🎉l8
I love the makeup but THE SHIRT!!! The shirt is everything! 🤩
I dont know if others have experienced this, but a fake account under Miss Rachel Oates just replied under my comment wanting to trick me into a telegram chat. I have reported the comment, but I figured I'd let you know here too. Loved the video! ❤️
The intelligence disparity between Dav and Paul make their conversations HILARIOUS to watch. Dav will say something decently insightful and Paul will just be like... but what if ur dumb >:) stop cussing!!
They need a show together lol
@T-bone-cq6pcI don’t see any videos
There's something frustrating about watching a smart person and a dumb person talk to each other and the conversation isn't able to go anywhere
hahaha so true
Ifs the same with Morgan. How someone has a career in public speaking and doesn't practice diction is lazy. They are soup brained
unfortunately paul is not smart enough to hold the type of conversations we want them to have
Paul annoys the hell out of me to be honest
@@mikalcarruthersOMG SAME, like I don't agree with most of them but for some reason he is the one that annoys me the most, no clue why
@@Experiment1011Could be because he is so smug about his ignorance. He wears it like a badge of honor...
Bro is too passive aggressive for my personal liking
He definitely thinks he is though lol. He’s so egotistical.
I think Bethany saying that she doesn't want her children to be manipulated into experiencing faith the exact same way she and Dav do and that she wants them to be Christian because that is their genuine belief is the most pleasantly surprised I've ever been by something she's said. The growth in acknowledging, even in just a small way, that she doesn't want her kids to have the same upbringing she had. She still has a very far way to go, but that comment gives me hope that she can deconstruct someday. I'm proud of her for that.
There's a good Prophet of Zod video where he goes through a "Focus on the Family" video which ostensibly claims to support allowing children to choose whichever religious beliefs they find most convincing, but it's layered through with "obviously they only have doubts for emotional reasons" and "they'll eventually reach our conclusion (the right one)". I hope she means it...
Isn't that actually a part of reconstruction? I feel like this is a step in deconstructing, tigether with the modesty thing and changing churches.
Those first steps of deconstruction are *terrifying*. It's like being asked to walk blindfolded onto a frozen lake with no knowledge of how thick the ice is *and take your children with you*. Even with someone holding your hand and lots of supportive friends around, it would be scary. When you've based your whole life around How Dangerous the Frozen Lake Is and most of your support system is giving you horror stories of what happens to people out on the ice, it's amazing she's managed to ease out as far as she has. Most people never manage it.
@@FabricofTimethis is an excellent way of describing it.
yeah that was wild to hear! she was _so_ much more open minded and reflective than I ever would have expected
This is literally nightmare blunt rotation
this is literally just a nightmare 💀💀
Blunt not helping... send morphine.
what would happen to bethy off an edible
this comment is sending me 💀💀😭
Everyone just licking their lips and lathering on that juice
Dav seems like the only one who has ever actually seriously questioned their faith and it shows. He’s so thoughtful and open and he’s always seemed baseline uncomfortable with the girl defined content. His faith actually feels genuine as opposed to just dogma. I wonder if their marriage will survive dav growing more in (or out of) his faith.
Dave is the average bigoted American Christian. It’s not as if he’s some pro lgbtq pro minority Christian who accepts people who are different than him. I don’t understand why u act as if he’s open minded. He’s never been or claimed to been. You are saying that about him
@@CalebR-zd5ql no one's saying he doesn't have areas in his personal life he may fix or change as he evolves, or, may hold onto which are systemic points of bigotry. What we CAN recognise is out of them all, he is the most analytical, rational, open minded, and willing to fully examine himself - even if it's an uncomfortable or painful process.
Remember, us Fundie-kids have grown up with the belief if we so much as question anything or change our views, we're not real Christians and we are going straight to Hell. There is a reason many are fully entrenched in the beliefs. We are taught from the age of a child that *our* eternal soul is threatened if we adapt or change our worldview from theology.
That, yes, is why deconstruction is difficult. I am still genuinely terrified I'll go to Hell just because I am having sex with a man outside of wedlock, imagine how I felt upon realising I'm bisexual.
He certainly seems the most Christ-like; Jesus hung out with hookers and lepers, treating queer folk the same as any other people would be in-character.
He's having a good influence on Bethany
him getting real therapy (instead of religious therapy) has DEFINITELY helped him a lot
21:00 - Seeing "Dav's views on cussing do NOT reflect Bethany's or GirlDefined's." immediately before hearing the first half of the most interesting thing I've ever heard Dav say, is pretty funny.
I love that they assume their audience is so stupid that this disclaimer was necessary and they're the sort of people who mock trigger warnings.
Paul's interactions with Dav really show me that he doesn't have the maturity or intelligence to have a nuanced discussion. If anything, he seems intimidated by Dav's intelligence, so he shuts him down by implying he's stupid for being "too open minded." He also thought this was clever enough to keep in the video like some "owned" moment.
This is my issue with Paul in general. He overestimates his own abilities and understanding. He can't handle complex theological discussions like Dav can.
My guess is that Paul has watched too many far right "debates" and therefore equates all discussion as something that you win. Your partner is an opponent to be defeated, crushed. So when Paul couldn't come up with complex ideas, he resorted to insults because that makes him "win."
This is why I genuinely believe Paul doesn't want to challenge his beliefs. He wants to reinforce his own beliefs by "winning." After all, he believes he is genuinely correct, so winning against other Christians will be easy.
I could be wrong, but this is certainly how I interpret Paul's behaviour and intentions.
He reminds me of the very stereotypical masculine-jock type guys who hide behind their extroversion and brusque attitudes. Now, I'm not saying men can't be stereotypical masculine-jock type guys, gender expression is a gradient and we love it all. But the problem with this end is when it's used for the purpose of competitiveness, denigrating, superiority, and a barrier against any criticism of harm.
Dave is a good example of being a 'nerd brain in a jock guy' and is swimming his way through what he's been taught on What It Means to be A Christian Man. It's not about winning, it's about dissecting. That's where him and Paul differ, because Paul as you said, comes across as the average conservative male whose conviction comes from a place of 'correctness' rather than 'understanding and conclusiveness.'
This!
Why would Paul want to change? He's got a wife who seems to bend to his every whim. I mean, it looks like that made Morgan an airheaded child, at least externally, which I couldn't deal with in a partner. But he's got what he thinks are benefits so he's working overtime to keep the status quo. That's why he has to win; Dave is quite literally a threat to what Paul sees as a way of life.
I think being competitive is fine...as long as you can admit defeat. If Paul thinks this is some sort of game that he needs to win, that's okay. I mean, I'm allergic to competition so I don't get it, but Paul needs to be grown up enough to say, "huh, you know Dave...I see your point. I have to think on this topic more." The problem, like you said, is Paul isn't capable of this. And what better way to win when you lose than to simply destroy your enemy. It's the best of both worlds to Paul. What he's NOT thinking about is how doing that will rot every relationship he has. It's going to get really lonely for him if he keeps this shit up.
The way he keeps looking around the park as if he expects people to be watching him as he goofs off around the 1:20:50 mark just screams "wasn't good enough for daddy". I would honestly feel sorry for him if he weren't so aggressively smug and bigoted.
I think Paul is bordering narcissist and Dav doesn't validate him. That pisses him off. But I might be wrong
I love how Paul and Morgan keep asking both Bethany and Dave leading questions that make it clear they don't respect their different beliefs (like gotcha questions) but Bethany and Dav have such a deeper and more mature understanding of the issues that it just makes the education/critical thinking difference between the two couples
Hope this doesn't sound disrespectful, but Bethany is a very interesting case study on the effects of purity culture and how deeply ingrained those believes are.
As Rachel says, you see a lot of moments where Bethany seems to have a breakthrough about some of the harmful stuff she grew up with, but then the 'programmation' kicks back in.
What gave me pause was the part in the video that they discussed 'oh no is bethany turning into a feminist', because there you can clearly see her backtrack on certain things. It becomes obvious how Paul and Morgan being there kind of works in this way of 'keeping her in check. Reminding her of her place as a christian influencer not a feminist'.
Last thing that bothered me was the fact that paul always seems to pull everything into the ridiculous: the exaggerated clapping, pulling silly faces, the belitteling comments. He makes it clear that he thinks he's better than anyone else.
It's so annoying to see someone behave like that
I've seen clips of just Bethany and Morgan talking before, and they actually felt like pretty normal friends with Morgan talking about her fertility journey and Bethany being sympathetic. Morgan even made Paul come off better than he usually does talking about how he supported her through that.
But, man, Paul is terrible around other men. I really think he's insecure about his own masculinity and so he gets jealous really easily of other men.
I’ve seen chinks in Bethany’s religious armor. She covers them quickly but they are there. They won’t go away.
And once she sees that Dav, the person she loves, remains the same good person and doesn’t become possessed by the devil in the middle of the night in spite of not being a Christian I think there will be less covering up of those chinks and there will more exploring of her belief system.
I’m cautiously optimistic about her future now than ever before. She’s actually shown a huge amount of growth by just accepting Dav’s decision.
Spending 24 hours with Paul and Morgan would be my personal hell.
It reminds me of that episode from The Office…
I wouldn't want to spend ten minutes with Paul, tbh.
Yes! I don’t have anxiety, BUT, it would flow outta me around them bc of the judgement.
Jaclyn Glenn did it :/
Agreed. Give me 24 hours with Morgan though, I think I could show her definitive proof that god is not the sex police, and everything Paul does is with ill intent and that’s what god is really warning against. I always saw it as judging the soul. And the soul is energy. And energy is science. And energy doesn’t die. So, if God created everything he doesn’t have to look back and judge every sin and add it up. He can see if your energy is positive or negative. This is the whole concept of all sins are the same in the eyes of the lord. If you have premarital relations with someone out of love…. Well, that’s not a negative action. If you marry someone just to have relations with them and then abuse and shame them for their whole life…. Well, I think you can see my point here.
I commented on Rev Jen’s video about this that it came across as an intervention for Dav rather than an attempt to get to know Bethany. The focus on Dav seems so much more intense than the conversations with Bethany.
Oof that's a really good point!
It’s unfair and rather patronizing to both of them.
@@warlordofbritannia yup. So uncomfortable to watch.
That’s exactly how I felt!! It felt like they spent the whole video trying to manipulate Dav into saying he isn’t as progressive as he seems
This entire premise makes me anxious about Beth's and Dav's relationship
Thank you for covering the fundie cinematic universe; you're ironically doing the lord's work covering these hacks.
Good on Bethany for not wanting to control Dav's thoughts or preventing him from questioning and exploring his thoughts. I hope that doesn't change (despite her "friends'" leading questions).
Bethany is also a true believer in biblical gender roles and in that context she probably doesn’t see it as her place to question Dav too much
Paul vibrates with a weird intensity
best description i’ve ever seen of him
He's so terrifying honestly
Dav actually seems likes such a thoughtful intelligent guy. He held his own but I felt bad for him when the others seemed to all gang up a bit. I’m interested to see if he ends up deconstructing in the future. I also really enjoyed listening to his take on The Barbie Movie
If Dave was truly a thoughtful and intelligent guy he wouldn’t be homophobic and transphobic. He’d be in support of minorities
@@CalebR-zd5ql not really, he's basically in a cult that will ostracise and condemn him if he feels any different.
@@shelby6 Dave is a conservative Christian. That group is not a cult. Tens of millions of Americans think just like Dave and are conservative Christians. He chooses to be a bigot. I grew up around conservatives and me and many people I know of chose to be pro lgbtq. It’s possible
@@CalebR-zd5ql you're in delululand if you think it's not a cult
@@shelby6 you’re delusional if you feel bad for these bigoted privileged people. I grew up around conservative Christians my whole life and I don’t feel bad for them when they choose to constantly be offensive and disrespectful to minorities around them. We deserve the empathy not them. You’re completely misguided. But the ones that care about minorities will give us that respect
Bethany's glowing discussion of Dav's pursuit of authenticity in his faith and how she has complete faith (heh) in his ability to help raise their children properly is so beautiful to me. Morgan's dismissiveness...wow.
I find it fascinating and impressive that Dav has so much compassion for an internet mob that's been declaring him gay for like a decade now. And Bethany's self-awareness that Dav is better liked than her for some reason, but she can't see that the difference is compassion, empathy, open-mindedness, non-judgment for people choosing their own path.
To be fair, she probably felt like people liked her sisters more than her while she was growing up too. At least I've definitely seen more people say they prefer Kristen over Bethany when they did Girl Defined together. And that had very little to do with Kristen being more compassionate than Bethany. Moreso that Bethany was the loud and awkward one of the sisters.
Because the 'internet' is not a hive mind, as much as we think it is. I never cared if he was gay or not.
i am a dave stan. he genuinely made the best arguments for himself that someone could’ve made in this dreadful 3 vs 1 situation. i would’ve simply cried
I actually feel bad for Dave. Especially in Rachel's video about Bethany and Dave's relationship
You shouldn’t stan a conservative Christian guy. And it’s ironic how you use lgbtq lingo to uplift a man that’s against lgbtq rights
It’s ironic that you use lgbtq lingo to uplift a man that is against queer rights. People saying they Stan/love conservative white Christian men just proves how they still are at the top of the hierarchy.
It’s ironic that you use lgbtq lingo to uplift a man that is against queer rights. People saying they Stan/love conservative white Christian men just proves how they still are at the top of the hierarchy.
@@mikalcarruthers It’s ironic that you guys use lgbtq lingo to uplift a man that is against queer rights. People saying they Stan/love conservative white Christian men just proves how they still are at the top of the hierarchy.
Paul is not wearing his pickleball leggings in a God honoring way.
I commented this on another video but if still BAFFLES me that Bethanie gave such an insightful and genuine speech about her love and respect for Dav and Morgan responded in the DUMBEST way possible. Nothing but judgement. No critical listening or thinking. Just WELL THATS UR DUMB HUSBAND. Truly embarrassing tbh.
I’m a known Bethanie hater but she and Dav mopped the floor with P&M
I think Bethany is smarter and more emphatic than she seems bc she has been so brainwashed. Women in her religion is often told to listen too men and not think for themself, so Dave have probably pushed her too see things in a different way.
imma be real, i think i could actually have a conversation with bethany without immediately having to immolate myself. it'd be painful, but she at least comes across as a normal person.
PAUL, however. wow. the way he whoops and jumps around and acts like a sexist-ass jock but also a humorless stuck-up bigot....it really gets to me. i feel like he would immediately talk over me about how right he is, the second i opened my mouth. its kind of baffling how much i hate his whole vibe. morgan too, to a lesser degree. she acts a lot "cooler" than the GD girls, but its all negated by the fact that shes married to paul and supports him and his views, even when he actively undermines her agency and personhood.
Same here haha. Paul is just a different level of extreme fundie.
In fundie circles, feminism is the other f word. It might be worse than the four-letter one. I would be surprised if Bethany doesn’t at least get there eventually and understand at least white feminism, even if she can’t bring herself to say she’s a feminist. I only say this because I know first hand how hard it is to go from fearing and hating feminism and what it stands for to being a full blown feminist who’s fully deconstructed and gone atheist (it took me almost as many years to stop saying I was agnostic as it took me to say I am a feminist).
The growth Bethany has demonstrated based on conversations in this video says she’s definitely interrogating her beliefs and even growing up a bit. But she is very immature and naive about so many things. She’s also caught up in putting on a show for the world to try to maintain their income and clinging to her bigoted beliefs is part of that. I’m not expecting her to become an ally to the 2SLGBTQIA+ community anytime soon, though I hope they all figure out how damaging their hateful views are.
The fact Dav swears is hilarious. I got a vibe from Paul that he was feeling a bit like he couldn’t measure up to Dav in terms of pure Biblical knowledge, and I noticed he didn’t push Dav too hard on that topic. I think he was scared he’d look like a fool.
They don’t realize that without feminism, they wouldn’t be where they are today. Paul was SO threatened by him it’s hilarious.
I feel like one day Dave will get too comfortable on camera one day and he will slip up and say some slur. I grew up around his demographic and slur saying is common
@@CalebR-zd5qlyou seem to have an outright hatred for christian men and should get that checked
I can also confirm that it can take a while to finally feel comfortable calling yourself a feminist even if your beliefs broadly align with feminism. It's a bit of a boogie man in those circles so it can take a while before you stop saying things like, "I'm not a feminist, but..." or, "I believe _____ but I'm still not a feminist." Like, I believed that women should have equal rights, equal pay, should be able to work outside the home, can even be the main breadwinner if that's what works for their dynamic, don't need to be subservient to their husbands, don't even need to get married or have kids, that patriarchal ideals are harmful to both men and women, that gender norms are rubbish, that women can be pastors and teach men, that no one is "asking for it" with the way they dress, that women face more oppression and discrimination due to their gender than men do, etc. but I still wouldn't have called myself a feminist. Not to mention, that all of those ideas evolved over time.
What a lot of people don't seem to understand is that deconstruction is a process and not everything is going to change at once and the order they do change might not make a lot of sense to an outside observer. There were times during my deconstruction when I would have voiced homophobic ideas when in the company of other Christians while I was actually beginning to see queer folks in a more sympathetic light and that it's a lot more ok and natural (beautiful, even) than I had been raised to believe. Sometimes even just to soften the blow of what I was saying like, "Maybe the Bible isn't as clear on extramarital sex as we traditionally tend to think. BuT iT's StiLL cLeAr on GaY sEx ThOugh"
I feel like people who have never had to go through that, underestimate how hard it is to express those ideas when you're still processing them.
Like, I remember, while still holding on to some homophobic ideas myself, trying to explain to my mom that no, me cutting my hair short was NOT a sign that I was questioning my gender and no, it's not because I have lesbian and bisexual friends because first of all, it's not contagious and second of all, sexual orientation and gender are two different things. Although, tbh, I am bisexual, so maybe it is contagious 🤪
@@CalebR-zd5ql ya, I grew up around them, too. I hadn’t thought of it but that definitely tracks. That would definitely not be hilarious. I guess it’s one way for him to not be the favourite anymore.
It's kinda heart-warming to see Beth and Dav's interaction, especially contrasted with Paul and Morgan. It looks like they've come a long way and learned to understand each other more and become each other's support system. It makes me really happy to see them like this.
As a person who deconstructed from fundamental Christianity and have landed outside of the Christian faith, I can unaquivically say that while I was deconstructing and people asked me hard questions that would put me farther away from the "in-group", I would back pedal a little. I would pander to stay connected with the people I have always been connected to. Even if I disagreed with it, I would answer what they wanted to hear to protect myself. I was already viewed as someone with outsider views but just not enough to be completely rejected. It's an intense fear of being ousted, of being cut off from the people you truly love and respect. When I reached a point in my deconstruction that I couldn't engage without being ousted, I WAS rejected. I left the church and the people I loved the most cut me out of their lives. I was not contacted or asked to hang out anymore. I lost everything except for myself and my husband and kids. All of my connection and belonging was lost, and I've had a hell of a time rebuilding. It's hard, and no one just chooses to deconstruct. It is an unstoppable tide that eventually engulfs you and you have to swim...or you drown. I feel so bad for Bethany because I can see myself, and I know where this path leads. She might not end up an agnostic atheist like me, but she will eventually get to the point where she will loose people that she loves, and there will be walls built to protect the "real" Christian faith from her changing beliefs. I am cheering for her because I've been there and I have reached the other side of it and I am really, really much happier than I ever was within the Christian faith.
Thanks for sharing you’re experience, it helps me to have have more compassion for people in this situation.
I wish Bethany would watch these videos in full, instead of just a few clips sent in by her peers that may have you disagreeing. You give such positive insight and she would benefit so much hearing the praise you give her when deserved
I've seen a couple of videos that both have the same response when Bethany says something about "They want us to move away from scripture." That we don't care if they are Christian or not, we just want them to have less hateful views.
Unfortunately, they are in a place where they see those hateful views as integral to Christianity. So to them saying "Be more accepting of LGBTQ+" is equivalent to saying "Stop being a Christian."
This!
Maybe someday they’ll fully deconstruct, especially if they follow their own beliefs of submitting to your husband and Dave deconstructing now will Bethany?
This the one
Idk, man, in America bigotry is pretty central to Christianity. Being less bigoted and being less Christian are kinda one in the same. We should encourage people to do both
@@georgelilly1847historically it has just not worked for societies to straight up push away from a religion, it always needed more time and the freedom to do so, and usually it came hand in hand with just teaching kids in school about the scientific approach, and the religious approach can be appreciated kn private, with family and loved ones, where these things probably also matter more than anywhere else...
1:32:00 - Bethany has the vibe of a teenager who's just finally coming around to the idea of viewing herself (and her partner) in a comfortably sexualised mature way. But like... 10-20 years late because religious infantilisation.
I've gone from making fun of her years ago to just genuinely feeling bad for her. She didn't get to choose to be sheltered and brainwashed from a young age. And now, as an adult, shes having to learn everything she was never taught or exposed to and you can see how hard it is for her to question her own beliefs. I honestly hope they can continue to make progress, Bethany and Dave don't seem like bad people, just really lost.
Having grown up in a very religious Muslim family in a Muslim country, I'm finally now at 23 in my first relationship, even holding hands feels like a crime, I've come a long way now but i'm still barely unwrapping all the religious trauma I was brainwashed into all my life. The guilt and the shame are extremely hard to shake off, but it's so freeing and worth it. I feel for Bethany in a way and I truly appreciate Rachel's never-ending empathy when making her videos!!
Prolonged adolescence basically
@@LipSyncLover interesting. I first thought you were using another term for arrested development, yet there does appear to be a meaningful difference.
You can tell how good Dave has been for Bethany. She seems so much more comfortable with the uncertainties and the reality of the world, rather than closing down anything that challenges her worldview in the slightest. Good on her
PS: Anyone else really concerned for Morgan? Paul seems extremely dumb and egoistic, which is always a dangerous combination
I have always been concerned for Morgan. Paul waves lots of red flags for being abusive
Definitely, Morgan to me seems like she’s on some sort of drug or medication, maybe she really acts like that normally but her sitting next to Bethany and Christen makes her look like she’s high as fuck.
watching this whole thing, Paul rubs me in such an awful way. Like besides the ONE genuinely good question he asked towards the beginning, he just seems like almost an instigator. and like maybe he’s TRYING to drive a wedge between Dave and Bethany. He also tends to almost put Bethany and Girl Defined on this pedestal and then back-handedly make digs at Dave. idk i may just be biased towards Dave, someone please tell me your thoughts. 🫶
no i absolutely agree. even in his videos that are going around asking people questions, it comes across as very instigating. the fact that in this video he was giving so many kudos to girl defined etc "you guys have done X" "you guys inspired us to do Y and Z", and then neglects to congratulate dav in the same way (who has quite a platform to speak of himself!) and just gives little irritated comments his direction makes me think exactly that.
I really, really appreciate your discussion about how we should not reject people for being "not progressive enough." One huge issue with the LGBTQ+ community in particular is the idea that progressiveness and allyship are black and white, that you're just supposed to be a perfect ally right out the gate. I am part of the LGBTQ+ community and It is frustrating to see even small changes get condemned or ignored because they're "not enough." I don't think we should throw a party in the streets because the Pope now allows blessings of same-sex marriages. But I think we can and should acknowledge this IS a good step.
I feel like many LGBTQ+ people believe recognizing these things means they aren't allowed to feel anger or frustration or anything like that about, say, the Vatican or Bethany or whatever else. And many people do need more than something like my above example to heal from religion-based trauma. But the issue with holding onto that hostility is twofold.
First, change comes slowly and in small steps. We need to welcome these steps when they come, because we don't want to forget what progress we HAVE made. While things still are not good for LGBTQ+ people worldwide, things are still better than they were 20 years ago. Education is more accessible, same-sex marriage is recognized in more places, LGBTQ+ rep in media is more visible than ever. Things are not perfect, but to ignore the progress we HAVE made causes us to lose the plot and that's a net negative for us.
Second, two things can be true at once. We can (and again, should) acknowledge the positive steps AND we can still recognize that a person's or institution's actions cause harm. These don't cancel each other out, and recognizing progress does not inherently mean forgiving them or letting them off the hook for all transgressions. It just means you acknowledge their actions.
The road to progress is full of so many steps and I think so many people (understandably) want ti to all happen in one giant leap. But it won't, so we have to keep sight of the destination by acknowledging each step we take.
I was thinking the same, I really appreciated this part of Rachel’s commentary and thought it was a wise approach to the issue of creating room for people to grow out of harmful and regressive beliefs.
Very well said
The *fundamental* (so to speak) problem is that Dave is smarter than all of them and I guarantee Paul does not fully understand half of what Dave said 😭
"When in doubt, go without" - instructions unclear, went without a shirt and people keep looking at my breasts
Can't believe ur leading them into sin like that smh 😂
Well, you know what Jesus said. If people can't stop looking, they should just gouge their eyes out!
I feel like a lot of the drama about Bethy’s Thanksgiving post (and her other Intimate Wife content) comes from her poor command of the English language, combined with the restrictions Fundies place on their speech. Her description of what happened - “I asked Dave what his favorite dish was on Thanksgiving and he said “me””- is a world away from “I asked my husband what he was most excited to eat on Thanksgiving…it wasn’t the turkey”. Option A is a cute, flirty exchange between husband and wife, an indirect reference with a wink. Option B is a riddle with only one answer, forcing us all to explicitly, literally picture oral sex. I feel like this happens to Bethy a lot - she doesn’t understand why the things she says make people upset, because she doesn’t understand the nuance of human communication. As she tiptoes outside the Fundieverse to cherry-pick sex-positive ideas that can benefit her personally, she doesn’t know how to incorporate that new language into her existing Fundie-speak. The results remind me of running a sentence through Google translate. Yes, Option A and Option B are technically synonymous. But in reality, their meanings are extremely different.
Interesting perspective, thanks! I've read that some people also speculate whether she might be autistic which would make sense of maybe why she struggles communicationwise.
Wait, which one do you mean is option A?
I personally didn't immediately picture it on reading your quote of it. I think people are just being a bit conservative and squeamish about it. Rachel gets a pass, though, because she's British.
Omg I can’t stop laughing at “Everyone v Dave״ as the title. Perfectly sums up this entire video! 😂
You have been on fire lately with all this content! 🔥🔥
♥ Thank you!!
Two of the only feminists channels I follow. Love you both!
I still can’t get over Bethany being “shocked” at infant Baptisms. 😂
Actually a lot of churches are against it and specifically exclude teaching on it but any teaching condemns it. Her shock isn't performative here unfortunately.
I mean, in fairness, the baptists, anabaptists, Quakers, etc. don’t condone infant baptisms because they believe that it must be someone’s own choice whether they want to be baptized by their church or not. I honestly think that’s a noble value to have, as far as things go.
People baptize their babies because they think they’re saving them from damnation were something happened to them. I was baptized catholic when I was a baby, I also went through catechism and confirmation in my teen years, but now I don’t identify as catholic, being baptized didn’t affect me at all…
I was raised Presbyterian. Baptized as a baby. Now I’m an atheist. I know people who were baptized as a baby and re-baptized later (born again christian). But I think it’s pretty safe to say that most major Christian groups have infant baptisms. I took her shock of it all as a sign of how insular the environment was that she grew up in. We all know their family lives in an echo chamber. Dave even pointed that out to Paul. Lol
@Nicgross right. The idea of infant baptism is older than the idea that infants shouldn't be baptized. By like 1500 years
It's insane to see this direct contrast between Bethany&Dav and Paul&Morgan. B&D just seem overall more mature and thoughtful and it seems to me that Dav has done a lot of work and introspection to get to this point and some of it has also transfered over to Bethany. Meanwhile P&M still feel like teenagers with their reactions to what the other two are trying to talk about. Paul especially just comes across as a christian frat boy
It sounds like Bethany is starting deconstruction, but doesn't know it. The support coming in to her from other deconstructionists has been incredible.
Morgan is a very frustrating individual. It seems she has chosen to Zombify her brain in service to Paul and to give up any sort of having individual thoughts of her own.
She's going to have a breakdown one day.
Morgan is mentally ill (self admittedly) and also self admitted to stopping her medication because all she needs is god or something. and in my opinion probably in an abusive relationship with Paul. She really needs help out of this in my opinion. And to make things worse she now has Paul’s baby.
Looks like cptsd to me.
I’ve been waiting for Dave to just fully connect with himself and let it all out. And Bethany will desperately try to recover it. But Dave’s always given me the vibes of someone capable of change of all of them.
Really it’s a brilliant “Teaser” video…if they actually let the full clips roll.
DAV IS THE CANARY IN THE COAL MINE, HOLY SHIT. SAVE DAV!
It’s interesting that society and people root for conservative Christian men more than the oppressed minorities they vote to subjugate. Comments like these show that in my opinion
@@CalebR-zd5qlthis video is about the Christian men though. What are you talking about?
@@katie8325 I’m talking about people like you. A hit dog will holler
@@CalebR-zd5qlpeople root for him because they hope for change with him. They do not root for Paul if you can notice the difference there. If you don’t encourage growth and change in conservative ppl when they show openness to listen then you are closing yourself off to potential future allies in the fight for equality. Yes there are those like Paul who need to be fought, but ppl like Dav can maybe be brought over to the other side and we should encourage that as a society.
Contrapoints videos for example deradicalized many men from being Nazi sympathizers and took them over to the left of the political spectrum. This is a good thing for us.
@@CalebR-zd5ql ::whispers:: sometimes it's not all misogyny, and misogyny isn't lurking around every corner at all times. you might find it helpful to see if what you're commenting on is actually misogynistic before throwing aspersions.
The way we have been absolutely blessed with Rachel Oates content recently. Thank you so much for all your hard work! I love your videos
1:47:25 Paul was definitely triggered by her laughing that intimacy in marriage isn't always perfect from the beginning. The only way he can cope is randomly insulting? how she looks infront of others, as if a 5ft 8 women is short. I can't imagine what he is like at home because it doesn't seem like he even likes his wife
1:55:09 oh my gosh they don't like eachother, the change in expression from Paul laughing to getting angry so quickly is scary. He blatantly humiliates her infront of others. Morgan is also very passive aggressive about him which just fuels the fire
Oh my goodness, this collab really highlighted how much more open and loving Bethany has become. Like she's still got some work to do but man its good to see. Congrats to her, I hope there's more to come.
Paul is SO blatantly insecure it's straight up annoying and embarrassing.. like figure your issues out bro.. obvi a lot of them probably stem from being fundies or whatever but yikes he's the most cringe out of all of them and that's saying something
Dav sounds very intelligent but seems to be repressed by his environment. Bethany seems like she's more willingly complicit in the fundamentalist hate, but she's also open to growth. I have hopes for these two.
Paul, Morgan, Kristen and whatever her husband's name is? I suspect they'll stay where they are, as they've taught themselves to close out any outside thought.
It's hard to say 'willingly complicit' when you've been shaped by a society that makes it difficult if not impossible to choose otherwise.
I am posting so many comment but at 1:22:24 I have to pause and say this : I think people are so drawn to content made about girldefined, especially by creators who disagree with them, because after seeing all this hate spewed about them, they need comfort and someone who opposed their oppressive views in a articulated manner. My antidote to transphobia and homophobie is to watch creators debunk these ideas and defend lgbtqia+ people. To me that's why this content attracts so much : we just all need a virtual hug
After watching Dave talk about the Barbie Movie, I am 100% team Dave, he seems like more of a normal christian rather than a fundi
I have some... doubts about Bethany's motivation for growth, unfortunately. I do agree there has been improvement, and I do agree Dav is a wonderful influence on her.
But my take is that her growth is entirely self-motivated. As in she 'grows' when her beliefs and faith rub up against her life. She learns because the black and white views impact HER. So while her takes on things like healthy sexuality and purity have improved, she likely won't improve on lgbtq issues unless she runs into a gay/trans/anything individual that impacts HER.
Dav, I think, gets away with influencing her because of her previously held beliefs of honoring her husband. In her mind, he is meant to lead the family, so she can content herself to accept his thinking as the dutiful wife. It's good fortune that his way of thinking is really open and pensive.
I always really appreciate that you still find kind things to say about the people you critique. It shows that you do examine people from all sides and give them a fair chance. Humans are nuanced and it’s great to see an equally nuanced approach.
P and M: "How could we possibly get more insufferable and judgemental?"
GD: "YOOOOOOOOUUUUUU RAAAAANG?"
These may not be actual quotes, but they should be.
Nah, I don't wish for Dav and Bethany's marriage to end. I hope that they continue to grow and learn from each other and they are putting the work in, which is good, so good on them! They should be the ones who decides on how their marriage should go and nobody else.
This is completely unrelated but I really appreciate the fact that you left in the part where you mentioned having a hard time with your first period with the coil and painful cramps because I related so much and I went through the exact same things for the first six months at least and idk, I felt like I couldn't relate to anyone during that time probably because many of us go through tat silently, so it was nice so see you acknowledge it in a very normal way
I agree! This is a nice contrast to overlyedited and curated Instagram (I don't mean Rachel's, I mean in general), and it's important to have these moments
I *LOVE* what Dav said: If someone says something to you, if you're a person of integrity, you should be able to look past the fact that they don't like you, and consider if what they are saying is true. Brilliant point - one that I'm always trying to integrate into my life.
i feel like christians think us secular folk have an issue with modesty itself when in reality its modesty being a value that we have a problem with. Like I personally dress very modest because I like layering clothes but it’s not a value of mine or something i take pride in ya know? its just my style
Coming off as nice doesn't mean you're a nice person. You can do and believe some horrible things with a smile on your face.
I just heard today “nice is not a personality trait, it’s a social strategy”
@@itssydvicious
That’s…cynical
@@itssydviciousI don't find this to be true. There are genuinely nice people without weird intentions behind their actions. There is a difference between actually being nice and seeming nice, of course.
@@VirtualRealibriDave is one of those people that I think isn’t genuinely nice. In this video he acts like a normal decent dude but he’d judge a gay couple holding hands in public. At the end of the day he’s still prejudice
Absolutely. A lot of people (especially fundies) seem to think that nice and kind are the same thing, but they're not. Niceness is the way someone acts, but kindness comes from a place of compassion and empathy, and is more a state of being.
Just dropping by to say that I've been given you just a dollar a month on Patreon for a while now. It's not much, merely a token of my appreciation for the work you do, and a fervent desire for you to rise above the shit being flung at you from all angles ❤️
I appreciate that so much, thank you so much!! :)
Y'all need to see Bethany and Dave review Barbie. Dev is amazing in that. He seems like a good person that is also Christian.
Dav no longer calls himself a Christian and admitted that he is deconstructing in the lastest video.
I never expected sth like thay to happen so soon tbh, I'm so surprised @@morbidgirl6808
its wild to me that bethany does not realize she IS deconstructing. just because she is still strong in her faith, does not mean she hasn't evaluated and changed her opinions and beliefs that were instilled in her growing up, which is the definition of deconstructing. i think p and m see dav has deconstructed because he has some differing views from them, but refuse to believe that bethany has as well, even though they have talked about her growth with her.
Still early in the video, but the cut from talking about modesty to inane coffee conversation was a pretty solid reminder that Paul and Morgan are the ones editing and posting the footage and they can direct the narrative any way that's convenient for them. And obviously that's not exclusive to them, it's one of the pitfalls of documentary style film-making, but it's worth keeping in mind.
EDIT: Moomin spotted!
Paul is 1000% super abusive behind the scenes. I feel so bad for Morgan but can recognize she's basically a willing participant in the nonsense and hatred they spew together
Right? I always get those vibes
She tries so hard to not make him angry and look happy
i find it absolutely insane that you guys really think it's okay to jump to these assumptions about people you've only ever seen through a screen and have never interacted with at all. and the thing is, even if paul WAS being abusive, pointing it out like you guys are is literally the WORST thing to do and is making things infinitely worse for morgan
@@愛子-t8n I 1000% agree with you. What do people think, that if Morgan was actually abused, that she one day will come out with this? And don't they not think they will put her in even more danger for accusing Paul of this? If it was true, which I don't even think is, randomly accusing people you only know from the internet is not the way.
Stop saying things like this. I find Paul and Morgan absolutely reprehensible but there is no actual physical evidence that he’s abusing her. It’s incredibly irresponsible to allege something like it’s an undeniable fact when you have nothing to back it up. You could certainly make an argument that he’s manipulative seeing as Morgan used to be much more liberal and Paul’s views are pretty high control. You can even say you think it’s unhealthy that she’s subservient to him, but neither of those two things necessitate actual abuse and until Morgan herself says something like that you should not speculate on it. It is much too serious a claim.
28:14 I’m a therapist. Here’s why I *think* this is happening. I primarily work with trauma survivors, which means that I end up with the occasional narcissistic client who doesn’t know or think that they’re a narcissist. They come to therapy because they don’t know how to cope in a world where everyone disagrees with them, they’re constantly having people insult them, and very few relationships last. They genuinely don’t feel that they could be the cause of this dysfunction, so they sometimes go to therapy to figure out how to deal with everyone in the world being a jerk. It causes sooooo much cognitive dissonance to honestly think and feel “I’m good/right” and also experience the reality that no one seems to agree with you.
How do we solve cognitive dissonance? Change our beliefs, change our behaviour, or numb ourselves out with unhealthy coping mechanisms.
I’m certainly not saying that she’s a narcissist (I think that’s just a good parallel to blind religious beliefs), but Bethany needs a lot of therapy because the cognitive dissonance of thinking “these values are good” while having thousands of people tell her how harmful they are AND seeing the dysfunction in her own relationships is deeply painful and confusing. At some point, she has to change her beliefs (which we’re already seeing some of), change her behaviour, or dive into the simplicity of “the bible says so” as a coping mechanism. That coping mechanism isn’t working as well as it used to, so….therapy to figure out why life seems to be such a struggle.
1 hour ago was watching the reply to this video by Antibot and was thinking “I hope Rachel’s video will come out soon” and here is it in 40 minutes😍 love you Rachel ❤️
Can we just appreciate Rachel's eyeshadow and shirt? Hunny, you are absolutely gorgeous and your videos are always interesting! Thank you for all your hard work! ❤🧡💛💚💙💜🤎🖤🤍
She's so beautiful and intelligent!! And empathetic, the empathy she shows in her videos is one of the reasons I love watching them yknow?
i wonder how much longer it will take for dav to go fully deconstructed, and if Bethany is capable of doing a little of the same. if not, i don’t see how their marriage can survive for longer than 3 ish years.
They won’t. They’re too brainwashed.
Gotta say, I always roll my eyes when these fundies have to proclaim that they’re “Bible-Believing Christians.” To me it sounds like someone shouting out that they’re a “vegetable-eating vegetarian.”
Especially as a denominational marker lol
Anyway, 'nondenominational' and 'bible-believing' just means 'baptist'
Great video! I can't help but wonder if maybe Dave's arguments/ thoughts kept getting cut because they were better than P&M's and they were concerned that if they were fully left in he'd influence some of their followers.
Also, I just want to say I love how you approach conversations about religion and religious influencers. You critique how they use religion to justify harmful beliefs and behaviors without insulting the religion or the average person who believes in it, but doesn't use it to spread harmful beliefs. As a Christian who was bullied by atheists to the point of considering self harm when I was younger and became actually afraid to mention my beliefs to anyone who described themselves as an athiest for a good chunk of my life, you're videos come across as very respectful in how you approach things and have done a lot to help me overcome that fear. So, thank you for the great way you present/tackle these topics!
Are you empathetic towards lgbtq people that feel afraid to express that they are lgbtq to Christians?
Oh they're for SURE cutting Dave short because he's saying things they think are out of line. Dave is, allegedly, in standard therapy, not their weird "Christian counseling". If that's true then you can see why he talks and thinks the way he does. He has nuance and is capable of seeing the shades of grey in things. Paul and Morgan and the rest are dogmatic: the book says the thing so that is the ONLY thing. Dave is now able to say, "people say lots of things, let's cut through the noise and get to the heart of it..."
@@ChristopherSadlowski Dave is still a bigot. And not a good person. Y’all hated Shane for being a bigot but you give passes to the man married to a woman? I know you want people to forget that and not talk about it but it’s true
Jeez. Another video out already? I hope you aren’t pushing yourself too hard! Thanks for another great video!💕
Paul gives me the vibe of "Listen to me, I'm the man here."
Welp...this crossover is gonna be an insane journey but thanks for making my day a little better. I've been stressed out recently and I'm trying my best to be positive. On that note, I'm glad to go through this nightmare of this Paul and Morgan/Girl Defined craziness with you all. Lord help us
Thank you so much! Really hope you're doing ok ♥
I totally get you, so excited to see this after a long day of statistics and calculus hell. Gonna cook an omelet (read get vegetables into my poor body) and listen to this
Thanks guys. I'm trying my best
Super unrelated but apparently this is my lucky video because I was listening to this while grinding Terramorphous on Borderlands 2 and I actually beat him?? At 1:02:40. That's about the moment that I stopped the video because I was so shocked I couldn't listen any more. I was literally paused on the game menu for 8 minutes straight after killing him! That was the first time I ever beat him, playing the game from childhood to today not once have I accomplished this until now. Thank you so much for reading of my accomplishment! :))))) I'm so excited to finally be able to get a platinum on one of my all time favorite games
As a gamer I see you and I congratulate you 😊
I may not fully understand, but genuine congratulations on doing the thing!!!!!!! 🎉🎉
Lutheran church is what is the "main religion" in Finland, and it focuses on your own personal faith and belief, not on "spreading the good word". Many people I grew up with were "habit christians", aka some aspects of religion were there (eg. a short night prayer if you were a kid, if even that), but no one professed belief or no one blinked an eye if you said you didn't believe.
Norwegian here. Same experience here. The gasp I let out when she said they joined a Lutheran church
@@linnbaardsen9459 another Finn here and YES!!! Also, at least here, it's a very liberal church, with a lot of personal freedom. When visiting Catholic and especially Orthodox churches I actually feel I might/should burst into flames, I never feel like that in the Lutheran ones
I bet there's a lot of interesting footage left on the cutting room floor for this one. I'd love to know what else Dav said that didn't make the final cut.
When we're talking about rehabilitation vs. just casting someone out, I think it's the job of people who weren't raised in the fundamentalist or evangelical movement to rehab these people, if anyone needs to do it.
I hear you about their needing to be a route for rehab, and I struggle with that. Because I was abused via evangelicalism though, I don't think I have the compassion necessary to offer kindness.
Does that make sense?
Basically, i think it's really cool that people like you, and fundiesnark, etc, do this work. You don't have a personal connection beyond interest and a genuine human desire for understanding
I'm a survivor of homeschooling and indoctrination and it's a LOT. I'm not the person to offer kindness to folks who are doing harmful work.
That said, the recent video about Dav's deconstruction was so relatable and so I really do feel for both of them. I'm just grateful for folks like y'all who ARE actively compassionate, and lead the charge on these things.
You are unwavering and kind, Rachel. Thank you. 💜
Getting triggered makes it hard to talk with fundies, absolutely, to say nothing of rehabilitating them.
That lack of compassion, though, is something we have to work on. It's a scar of our upbringings and possibly the hardest to get rid of in my experience. The absolute judgement of it all feels foundational to me as a person. It sucks.
I love your cannel, Rachel! I just wanted to say that I really love when you share your personal struggles (periods, mental health, etc) during filming, even if it doesnt relate to the subject of the video, it just makes you feel like a real person and not some manicured perfect image on the screen. It's nice to know that everybody goes through these things, and you present yourself as a genuine person when you do this. Love your content, keep up the great work. ❤
Watched the whole video start to finish in one sitting. Incredibly well done and better spoken. 👏🏻
Such a long and enjoyable video again, the research alone must be so much, very impressive, considering the quality. Thank you for giving me a break from life while still critically thinking about stuff, again!
How did I miss this one?? I’ve been gobbling up every “Dave is deconstructing” video I see for the past week! Thanks for this I’m so excited to watch ❤
Orthodox Christian here - I already watched Jen's video on this topic (loved it) and am super excited to watch yours. Here to hear opinions that are different to mine and listen to "the other side" just as you say. I enjoy your nuanced discussions! Dav is like the Christians I know, but I've met a lot of Porgans and Bethanys too and I fully understand the reaction you have to them. God bless!
Loving this content! Really enjoy your in depth analysis and unpacking the "why" and impacts. I wish i had teachers like you at uni, i feel like i would have learnt so much more! ❤️
Paul/Morgan (I suspect Paul) were in Rev Jen’s comments being surprisingly civil but being quite open about Dav coming from a different place than them and not being as reliant on the ‘word’ for his truth. Clearly they’ve marked Dav out for othering which I think is sad as they could learn a lot from him.
This made my day, and you always do- sending you support Rachel 💜
i finally have a few nights to catch up on all your content !! so excited for the mild snark and large amounts of common sense
This is so refreshing I've been waiting 5 years for this omg
If it makes you feel better about rooting for Bethany, I used to be in that same place she is, where i was staying to reckon with the cognitive dissonance i got from the difference between my beliefs and reality and it scared me. I doubled down harder than i ever had when i was with other Christians during this period, bc I was afraid of getting shamed if they sensed i was a fraud. But that was also the closest i got before one day a switch flipped and the house of cards of my belief system collapsed bc realizing and accepting i was wrong entirely was the only way to reconcile all the contradicting beliefs I had been taught. I hope that that's what's happening here
Morgan always makes me think she is in some form high or drunk. Like she tapped out, she seems uninterested in her husband, if not even downright annoyed. And honestly watching Morgan talk makes me sad, especially next to the other two women who seem far more at peace and comfortable in their lives and relationships.
I do not agree with Bethany on much (how could I, I'm queer) but there is a love for living in her that shines so strongly when you put her next to Morgan
I was having the same thought she just doesn’t seem to be fully present in her life and it’s really sad
@lovers807 ok I thought it was just me not being as familiar with her yet that she seemed really out of it or detached
Dissociation
It feels like maybe Paul and Morgan had an ulterior motive in talking to Bethany and her husband, like they want to influence them towards being more extreme again instead of actually listening. The whole "think about the haters and all the things they say, and they would NEVER accept an apology" kind of stuff. And not including Dave's answers about some things comes across as afraid of showing people his insightful views that they don't agree with
I just wanted to say I appreciate how much time and effort you put into your videos.
Oh god, this sounds like a living nightmare just from the title alone
So excited for this video! Thanks for the sacrifice of watching all that content lol
Astounding to hear how much Bethany wants black and white answers to life. DUDE. I thought it was a given, there is no one right way or path for everyone. We each have to find our own way. A dear friend of mine is a Christian, in my opinion her family indoctrinated her. She honestly thought if she followed these certain steps, her adult life would be a breeze. She is pretty happy and has made a good life for herself, but I am sad for her that she didn’t know that we all have to hash out our own answers. It’s HARD! LIFE IS HARD. Psa now over.
I really appreciate how you talk about people, with your understanding and sympathetic outlook on why they think that way and believing in positive progress. Sometimes it is hard to stay that way especially when said people mock your own existence, however I think it is something that I aspire to commit to doing more consciously in my own life or when criticising someone specifically.
I feel like I was triggered most by Paul's clapping.
Yes same here, somehow that was incredibly irritating!! 😳
@@swissmeringueclouds1428 I feel like he was going out his way to clap like that for attention, if that makes sense lol
just wanted to add some context regarding the difference between american poverty and british poverty: mainly that having a car of any kind is generally rarer in the UK because there's a huge network of trains and other public transit options like biking or walking, so I understand why from that point of view, you would imagine that it requires more wealth to own a car in the US.
however, something I feel needs to be pointed out is that rural poverty in the US is very different than city poverty because while you can more easily get to the places you need to go via walking/biking/bus/train in the city, that is simply not possible in many more rural areas. for example, I am middle class, but one of my closest friends growing up was from a quite poor family, and they couldn't often afford things like new clothes or toys for the kids, but because of the area we lived in, they had a car. it was absolutely shit, old af and barely ran, but they did own a car. because as i mentioned, it's basically impossible to live in the rural US without transport because there is no other option. our town did not have busses or trains, it was often too far to bike or walk, so all that's left is spending what little money you do have on a crappy car that breaks down every other week because otherwise you cannot go to work and pay for necessities.
I'm not saying that I don't think bethy's view might be a bit skewed as it certainly sounds like her family was a bit more well-off than she'd like to believe, but I also wanted to add context for those of you not in the united states, as to why just owning a car is not in and of itself a reason to think someone has money.
edit: 2:02:00 I wanted to clarify that I also think bethy is projecting her insecurities onto dav because I absolutely do not want her to suffer, I very much disagree with a lot of rhetoric she's spouted over the years but I acknowledge that she has matured and grown a lot in that time and I believe that progress can be greatly attributed to dav's influence on her. I like the way he looks at things, especially his faith. I am not a religious person, I am an atheist in fact, but I respect that dav has actually done the work to dig into not only what he believes but WHY he holds certain beliefs because I'm so sick and tired of christians especially fundies, who go around saying nonsense without ever actually doing any fact-checking or basic education on their own religion. that does NOT mean that I want their family or bethy to suffer due to a difference in specific religious doctrines, I don't wish their family to "fall apart," but I do very much prefer dav if choosing between him and bethany.
paul and morgan however...i don't wish them to suffer, but i don't think they should be married. I'll say that much. I've seen how they interact and it's passive aggressive at best. bethy and dav though I think actually seem to have a genuine love and compassion for each other and at least try to work out their differences in a much healthier way, whereas paul and morgan seem like pissed off roommates who got stuck doing a class project together when they don't even like each other.
what's funny is I have BPD and "black and white thinking" is something we have to train ourselves out of because it's considered one of the bad traits we tend to have lol. It's 'all or nothing' thinking and it does take some retraining to get out of but it's kind of funny that Bethany thinks is a good thing.
Interesting parallel and glad to hear that you’ve been able to work on more nuanced thinking patterns. Are there strategies that you that found most helpful? I’m curious about how translatable the approaches for BPD are to fundamentalist indoctrination, from your perspective.
I think you're so right about the differences in motivation between Girl Defined (or Bethany, at least) and Paul and Morgan. And I think that's why the 24 Hours series is always gonna be a bit of a disappointment, because P&M were never going into it with the intention of being open-minded or genuinely listening to anyone else's views
I want to say you look absolutely STUNNING in all the different parts of this video, makeup is on point and you’re so prettyyyy
I think the conversations, especially between Dave ad Paul, are probably cut because Dav is able to prevent Paul from talking over him, and makes a full point. Paul can't lose, especially on camera. His head would explode.
Your last video was so crushing learning about your experience is unfortunately relatable and so sad I hope things get better for you we love your work never stop being your authentic self