Southwest DANGEROUSLY LOW | Extreme Weather Approach at Tampa
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- Опубліковано 6 вер 2024
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Audio source: www.liveatc.net/
Radar shows real ADS-B data extracted from different sources and corrected for altimeter setting 30.14. My radar scope software is capable of repesenting altitude data with a +-50 foot margin so the information is pretty much as precise as the real ATC radar display.
RNAV GPS 10 overlay is on scale with radar scope. SWA425 overflies ZEXYY (FAF at 1600ft) at 600 feet altitude, 1000 feet lower than published on RNAV10 approach plate.
Weather overlay is only for reference.
Which altimeter setting could they have had before ATC told them to use 30.14?
@@jochen_schueller 30.13 was the last reported on METAR. I'm pretty sure they had 30.14 or 30.13 set and the loss of altitude was due to windshear or downdraft
@@VASAviation radar overlay helps! 👍
Pilots, what’s the ± feet around a published level at FAF you’d consider unstable?
For any pilots unfamiliar with doing conversions in inches of mercury: 29.92inHg = 1013.25mbar while 30.14inHg ≈ 1022mbar, the conversion of 27feet per millibar puts them 240 feet higher than the uncorrected ADS-B data shows (from low to high touch the sky)
This is best ATC channel on UA-cam
Thank you so much for your support!
You are so correct
Only one worth subbing. The rest get "do not recommend this channel"'d.
So many copied but none with quality and class like this
@@penguin44ca thank you for your loyalty to this channel
"You can always go around"
When it don't look like...
Unless you're in a glider
"If it don't look right coming down"
@@JimboRustles TPA is not authorized for gliders though.
No, you can't always go around. I know there was some silly video with a song, but it's a false statement.
Another low altitude approach south west…………they are on a roll
Rollercoaster. FTFY
Dutch roll, if you will
Diversity hires. SW is DEI now didn’t you know?
So glad the chat with 1256 didn't go much longer.
By the way, before we stop the descent, any news on the local sports scores?
Yeah I was getting anxious haha
Ah the weekly near disaster from SWA
Whoop whoop! Pull up!!
great work controller👏👏
Indeed, at this case. He saved the Flight.
Looks like they descended to less than 400 ft before having visual. Best decision was to divert.
Their lowest real height was never below 349 feet over the ground/sea
they were 1200ft below the IAF at the causeway
@@zq3yp 1000ft lower according to radar.
@@VASAviation regardless the height, this was prior to their sharp descent, they steadily descended down to that point.
Speculation is that they mistook the causeway for the airport...
The causeway & the rarely used runway 10 are lined up
with each other a couple miles out.
The minimum altitude at Zexyy Final Approach Fix is 1600 feet. SWA at 600 feet and 5 miles from the runway. A little weak on situational awareness? Is this becoming a trend since the LaGuardia episode of ATC tower controller yelling at SWA not hit the tower on approach? Again in Oklahoma SWA too low.
The crew effed up. They we about to land on a bridge that they were lined up with in heavy rain. So essentially landling visually.
Their altitude dropped to 150 feet over the causeway. They had come out of the rain over Safety Harbor which is the 5, 6, 7 miles out that the earlier pilot referenced. The weather on the E side of the bay to TPA was clear, so idk what the excuse was. Then played it off diverting when all the other flights said it was “manageable”.
@@JMan-24 Pilots lied their asses off. They are motherfuckers.
Gettin' low on zexyy, we've all been there
Not all.😂
Always nice when ATC is managing your cockpit for you.
What do you mean?
Yes, indeed.
@@SimNico "Are you going around?" "Yeah, that sounds good.."
At first I thought this was from today. I was listening to Tampa approach and tower this afternoon during some severe weather. It sounded like they had their hands full. We've had pretty consistent hard rain and wind for the last couple weeks.
Lived in Tampa for 30 years, the only time I’ve seen commercial aircraft land on runway 10 is during the Macdill AFB air show when the airspace to the south is closed…. And why did they divert to Ft. Lauderdale? Orlando, Sarasota, Ft. Myers are all closer?
It seems that SWA either does not load or follow vertical guidance on LPV or ILS approaches at times.
There is no ILS approach to that particular runway in TPA and Southwest is not likely approved for LPV approaches.
@@816928why not?
Southwest pilot here, not sure how these folks are getting themselves in these situations. Every approach I do no matter the weather conditions I follow some form of glide slope or GPS path.
Seems to be a trend with Southwest and LA alerts. LaGuardia, Oklahoma City, now Tampa.
Would like to know if what approach they were doing. Im guessing a RNAV approach with vertical guidance flown in VNAV. Biggest threat is baro error. If QNH is wrong the path even though it’s correct won’t line up with the runway. VSD is a great tool and would have picked that up not to mention altitude vs distance xcheck and a FAF callout.
Glad the pilots decided it was unsafe and just diverted. A lot of accidents happen because pilots ignore the danger and just try to land at an unsafe airport. Everyone did a great job all around.
Indeed, and they were not the only ones. Many other diverted too
They weren't going to land at an unsafe airport... They were going to crash into a bridge almost 4 miles from the airport!!!!
The pilots made it unsafe, but made a good recovery
Nothing about the airport was unsafe. They were 1000' lower than the intercept altitude for no reason whatsoever and almost descended into the bay. The only person here who did a great job was the controller giving them the low altitude alert.
@@Q1776Q, @allgrainbrewer10, @TheWayOfJamesBand it was most likely windshear or downdraft. Also read VASAviation's reply above. Why would that flight and many others divert if the weather at the airport was fine? Did all of these flights have incompetent pilots or mechanical issues or something like this?
What's infuriating is the number of stories I saw mentioning this was a Max and insinuating this is another problem of the Max, does anyone every BOTHER to wait for some sort of evidence before launching blame?
Agreed.
Nah, all looking for the morbo. Weather played a major role on this one...
Because the max crisis has been so terribly managed by Boeing that just mentioning it is a boeing people thinks it is a 737 Max and MSM knows how to make money. (╬▔皿▔)╯
That's what gets them clicks. The uneducated love the fear mongering.
Hah not in this world. Point fingers before everyone can check
Scary shit! Good job to all around on that one.
I swear this was something else when I clicked on it. I thought it said "Check your Attitude".
Me too.
I live right under the flight path, and I see some of these planes crazy low sometimes… especially with this weather we have been having. Funny thinking it and then a video popping up here about it.
I like how he immediately saw the la alter and reported the altimeter settings. I'm sure that is standard, but is an important piece of info.
Seeing as you are on vacation, Viktor, can we get some of next week's United incidents and wheel drops neatly packaged together here this week please? 😢
(I'm sticking with this same joke 'cos I can!)
Vacation is over already for me haha
Thank you very much for picking this incident up!👍 - Juan did an interesting Debrief on the Blancolirio-Channel.
Btw.: What´s that Waypoint?🤔
Came down to 150 feet over the causeway. Unacceptable. According to local news the FAA investigating. SWA said safety is very important.
Never got down to 150 feet. That's false.
Why did they divert to Ft Lauderdale when there are other closer airports?
This actually looks similar to UPS in BHM where the crew was in V/S trying to capture the glide path as they were high and descended through instead of capturing the glide slope.
I’ve got 50 years in the industry. At first glance it sounded normal and professionally done to me.
This is a great channel.
Thank you
A real quote from a 911 dispatcher friend, not at all directed towards a particular flight in this ATC audio........
"This is Dispatch, not Barnes & Noble - keep your novel off the radio!"
Dang I’m here early. Great video as always.
Thanks for watching!
That runway is rarely used by the large airlines. However when it’s called for , you should know how to fly the approach. Terrible flying and scary!
I drive past TPA a lot and this is the first time I ever heard about a commercial jet landing (or trying to land) on runway 10. How often does runway 10 get used for commercial flights? It’s the shortest of the three runways and seems like the last one to use in bad weather (I’m not a pilot!). I guess they were trying to land heading into the prevailing wind. Any thoughts?
I have never seen Tampa use 10/28 as an active for arrivals before lol
It happens, mainly during weather situations or high winds
It happens during the Macdill air show … that’s the only time I’ve seen this runway used for commercial aircraft.
Pressure of 30.14 sounds high (29.92 is sea level). I wonder if they had a downdraft near the airport. No wind shear warning, though.
That’s a very common pressure.
I don't understand this. Did they forget to hit the VNAV? Its gotta be microburst or lvl change / vs descent mode.
Oooooh man, I just know that dudes dispatcher is PISSED 😂😂😂😂😂
Interesting how the “incident” is portrayed differently here than at “another” youtube channel that covered it yesterday. There has to be a good reason to divert and a number of flights diverted as noted here. The other channel insinuates a premise of “obviously incompetent pilots”. Seems that was a rush to judgment on the other channel. Hopefully a more detailed report will be made available to get this sorted out. This channel definitely has great credibility.
Indeed. All here displays facts. 150 feet is a FALSE information if you see that somewhere else. 150 feet is the lowest ADS-B data reported BUT ADS-B data is always based on 29.92 altimeter, which was not the local altimeter at the time of the incident. 30.14 was. I corrected for that showing the lowest height over the ground/sea of about 340-360 feet.
Wouldn't be the first time pilots have lined up on the Courtney Campbell instead of rwy 10. The pilots most likely whiffed it here.
@@MichaelP-ns if that's the case apart from weather, that would be a major F. It was 23:00 UTC, that wasn't even night time.
It was incompetence, they were 1200ft below ZEXYY, they steadily descended then AFTER passing that they had another abrupt descent
They were 1000 feet low at ZEXYY (assuming they were backing it up with an approach at all).... obviously we don't have all the details but unless they flew through a microburst, yeah... they screwed something up.
We have clearance Clarence, what's the vector Victor? roger Roger 😅
It looks like they were aiming for the FAF instead of the airport.
Kinda. They overflew the FAF at 600 feet, 1000ft lower than published.
Looks like they mistook the highway bridge for the runway in the reduced visibility
@@Airpaycheck not even relevant. You’re either following the approach or you’re not.
@@Jimmer-Space88that is relevant because it shows they weren’t following the approach.
@@yungrichnbroke5199 yes I agree with you in that statement. Sorry, maybe I misunderstood what you were saying.
He wanted to land on the Route 60 Causeway 😳
Since when is Tampa Bay the "sea"? They were attempting to land on the rarely used east-west runway.
“Cancel approach clearance”
Why is it always the ones that have to fuck up the radio calls?
Come to Waypoint ZEXYY for a good time
I really don't get how that even happens, they weren't even close the right altitude. I live right next to the causway, and the local news is saying they were over that by only 150 feet. The causeway is perpendicular to the runways, to the west....makes no sense how they got there. These pilots just missed.
Question: how proficient are airline pilots at flying RNAV approaches? Do I understand correctly it’s mostly vectors to ILS? And a lot of the airliners to this day are not even capable of LPV?
Could this be a simple case of lack of proficiency?
No. The 737 uses IAN (Integrated Approach Navigation) which basically allows the crew to use the same approach button on the MCP for both ILS and most RNAV approaches. It essentially flies the RNAV like an ILS with a glide path and everything. Super easy to use. Hope that helps.
Can you edit this to include the approach clearance? Thx.
Are you gonna make a video on the crowdstrike outage?
Please explain to me why SW did not just go around and attempt another landing. Why did they request to go 200 miles away to land? This sounds very fishy to me. Something else was going on. Was the flight hijacked? Somebody wanted to get to Ft L. real bad.
Weather
“WN 425 reason for go around?” “The sun was in my eyes” 😅
CNN is reporting that they were at 150 ft, but that seems to be based on flightradar24.
And that's fake. They don't correct for atmospheric pressure
Hehe... ZEXYY 😏
I'm too zexxy for my plane, too sexy for this plane...
Just curious as to why they diverted to Ft Lauderdale, about 200 miles away, rather than try again at Tampa.
Due to he weather and visibility at the time, they could not risk another approach
Yeah the fact that they diverted everyone else means it was too dicey to keep everyone flying I
They need to put a hard stop at all visual approaches at that operation. They need to be established on an approach-with an electronic glide slope-from outside the FAF for all landings going forward until they figure this shit out. This is seriously messed up and I can’t believe the FAA is letting this continue. Seriously, WTF?
Was this a visual? I think it was an RNAV 10 instrument approach. Agreed, this has got to stop.
Apparently he wanted to land on the causeway…? 💁🏻♂️
People mention altimeter 29.92 and 30.14.
What do those numbers mean? In what unit is that?
I suppose it's not the altitude of the airport above the sea (in neither meters nor feet), since that would be a small difference that would not matter
You are correct that the numbers are not the airport elevation (btw, the term altitude is usually reserved for things that are in the air while elevation is for height of the ground). The numbers you reference are Imperial units of inches of mercury, a measure of air pressure, defining the zero elevation reference for the altimeter. The SI units for the same measurement in use in the rest of the world are millibar aka mbar.
When flying at or above FL180 (18,000 ft), all aircraft set their altimeters to 29.92 so they have a common altitude reference relative to each other. When closer to the ground the altimeter is adjusted to the local reported airport pressure zero point, in this case 30.14, so the altimeter shows a number that more accurately reflects the airport elevation.
@@IFS thanks for the reply! :) ah, I know the word "elevation", it just did not come to my mind when writing that (not my first language), so thanks for reminding/correcting me.
OK, so it's the air pressure, then that makes sense that the airports announce the number to the pilots (if it was elevation, it would be a constant in the charts, the pressure changes with weather...)
Although, it raises a different question... If they measure the aircraft altitude based on the air pressure (and its difference from the reported air pressure at the airport), isn't that prone to weather fluctuations? (like gusts of wind hitting the sensors, or something like that? Not sure how much can these affect the pressure readings)
@@panda4247 Precision in phrasing demonstrates comprehension, which is even more important when communicating in a 2nd language. The current QNH/Altimeter setting is announced by the airport on what is called ATIS, Automated Terminal Information System. Only occasionally, such as extreme weather events such as was happening during this video, do controllers also announce the setting on giving landing clearance.
You still seem to have some comprehension holes based upon you writing "...and its difference from the reported air pressure at the airport," I didn't say the number was the pressure at the airport, I said the number was the zero reference for the altimeter based upon the pressure at the airport, not the same thing. It is the number, based upon the current barometric pressure at the airport and known airport elevation, that represents mean sea level (0 elevation). So upon landing the altimeter will read as the airport elevation, not zero.
As for the technical details of how barometric altimeters work and what source of atmospheric pressure is used (static pressure), that's more than can be answered meaningfully in a comment and is better left for your own research. But you can safely assume any "raised questions" you can think of has been considered and accounted for if necessary by the engineers that design such equipment. Do you own research if you're interested.
@@IFS I bet his English is better than your whatever. He's just asking questions on you youtube and you act like he's applying for his Space Shuttle Pilot license. Get off your high-horse.
@@kcgunesq Well thank you so much for your feedback. I will value it for precisely what its worth. Glad to see you were able to scratch your complaining itch today. Good luck with that.
After several incidents like this I think a fair question to ask is do SW pilots know what they’re doing?
The answer is a resounding yes. Thousands of flights a day. Seemingly an incident every month or so over the last several months. One eff up in 100K flights is pretty decent. Not perfect and room for improvement, but to suggest the actions of a couple pilots are reflective of the thousands of others is ridiculous.
@@qwerty112311 This isn’t the point, these are dangerous rookie mistakes that should never happen that only SW pilots seem to be making. If this behavior persists one day their luck is going to run out.
This is the one lined up for a causeway at 150 feet about 4 miles out from the airport, I believe. Some sort of visual illusion got them too low.
They never got as low as 150 feet from the ground. That is false information for not correcting the data with atmospheric pressure.
@@VASAviationMy apologies if true. I thought I saw the ADSB data on Blancolirio showing that low?
@@robertmog4336 Blancolirio chose the wrong channel this time and they didn't correct the ADS-B data for local altimeter setting. All ADS-B data is based on standard QNH, then I have to correct it in order for the radar display to show the real and most precise information. Some channels don't even bother doing that.
@@VASAviation Blancolirio actually referred to you as the one to watch when you got this event out. He highly commended you.
@@VASAviation that's why we all love your channel so much Victor. You get it right! I only hope the pilot on any flight I'm on is as great a pilot as you!
AGAIN?! What the hell!!!
It was the storms
Also no reason to swear
Ft. Lauderdale is the diversion airport? Wow that is a bit of a ways compared to like Orlando but I could imagine weather could have been just as bad.
I'd like someone to explain how they think they did that. I just don't understand how two 121 airline pilots get that far off before they initiate a go-around.
Was it a microburst that pushed the plane down?
Most likely
That's what it seems like to me
imagine being in a car on the bridge
This is a different flight from the one that got to 175 feet? What are they doing man
Which flight got to 175 feet?
@@VASAviationnews is reporting that they got to 175 feet 3 miles out. Not idea where they’re getting that from. This video shows 500 ft.
@@yungrichnbroke5199 175 feet is definitely false information
So if they didn't get down to 150', what did they get down to? And how do you know? They don't sound too stressed.
I use ADS-B data but corrected to local atmosphreic pressure. They got low as 340-360 feet
29.92 transitioning to 30.14 is roughly 220' increase to standard altimetry.
@@VASAviation as stated in a previous post, following the causeway towards runway 10 and still descending, there are several office buildings and hotels at 20 stories. They can think somebody or someone that controller called out a check altitude instruction. This is about as incompetent as you can get.
@@Jimmer-Space88 wait for the investigation
Can someone explain why they were cleared to land in Tampa and then diverted all the way over to Ft. Lauderdale? That’s not a go-around.
Cause they whiffed the first approach so bad, they're like nah. I don't blame 'em
It was technically a missed approach followed by an immediate diversion. In the heat of the battle the missed was called a go-around because at that time the crew probably hadn't decided if they were going to divert or not. (Speculation)
@@VNAV_PTH well, a missed approach is actually called a go-around. It doesn't matter if you literally go around the airport or not.
@VASAviation Thanks bro.
If they had no more fuel reserves than they would have had to divert. Pretty simple.
Microburst?
And no PIREP? I highly doubt it. And they would have self initiated the go around (I hope).
Monthly southwest low altitude gimmick
Extreme? Maybe not that
Gain/loss of the gust factor. Kinda how a gust works mates....
Had a headwind, not a tailwind. If anything they would went high on a gust.
@@pjhaebe eh? Headwind or tailwind... You will have to bracket airspeed. For ATC to make such a big deal of nothing special seems weird to me.
Not even a second attempt… Just a straight divert. The aircraft must've been super low on fuel
other planes didn't even try the approach. It was awful weather
I WILL NEVER, EVER FLY SOUTHWEST AGAIN! PLANES ARE NOT SAFE ANYMORE, ESPECIALLY SOUTHWEST!
SWA pilots need to learn not to drink in the cockpit. Keep those lips sealed boys. SWA likes to fly low
“Extreme Weather”?
Of course the news is blaming the 737 Max. Pilot error!
Does SWA just like, not bother doing ILS'?
What ILS?
I’m sure they would’ve if it existed
There isn’t one to that runway. Nice job, enthusiast, try again
They is NO ILS for runway 10 in Tampa!
Why is there no ILS?
Why not just say WIND SHEAR and suggest closing the airport🙃🙃🙃🙃
Why would you close an airport for a 10knot windshear when other planes are making it to land? Windshear and downdrafts when there is precipitation is kind of luck too. You can get it and go around or you just don't feel any major bump and make the landing just fine.
@@VASAviationalso, windshear is indicated at a 15 knot airspeed gain or loss. Only 10 knots was reported with no mention of any predictive alerts in the audio provided.
@@MikeDCWeld correct
Crew was
Wi tu lo
Ho Lee phuk
Another day at Southwest. I can't believe they are clueless to all those terrible approaches
Have you ever experienced a downdraft as a pilot? Do you even know what a downdraft is?
@VASAviation This looks to be a legit happenstance and a very good job done by everyone involved, but it does not change the fact that these low altitude events have been happening A LOT to Southwest here.
southwest are some top notch pilots. You kind of have to be if you're gonna take off/land (especially land!) an airliner at a small airport like Chicago Midway.
@@JoshuaCasey I agree. But either nobody is paying attention to the Swiss cheese aligning or we are getting handpicked incidents from swa only. Neither are good.
@@JoshuaCaseymidway is hardly small. Shorter runway but still not small by any means
Dive bombing ZEXXY.