10 Times Where Using A Known IP Was Worse

[@briant2438]

The problem with IP's is typically they are being made with primary goal to make money off the brand, instead of trying to make a good game. You see this in video games too. Get a game out quick to coincide with the movie release and the game is terrible. Additionally with certain brands the IP is so restricted to existing canon that the designer cannot do anything unique, and customers also expect certain things to exist. Star Wars is an example of both good and bad implementations. The ones that feel forced is games which has to have existing characters like Luke and Darth Vader. Sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't. The best video game adaptations have been KotR and SW Jedi Fallen Order where the creators were given creative liberties to create unique stories within the universe. The best IP's are where existing lore and world building is rich to draw from. Dune Imperium/War for Arrakis, War of the Ring, Journeys into Middle Earth, Marvel Champions, Outer Rim, Rebellion, and Imperial Assault are highly rated for a reason, there is a good game behind the IP skin. They were built with love for the universe but also love for a good game behind it.

[@Mrfinch9999]

Bingo. I remember dark souls the board game and how little SFG cared about it.

[@Peetoo6]

Such a half true. Make money argument you can make on literally EVERY medium-big producer, ip or non-ip. Having beloved ip helps with instant recognition hugely (ofc im more probable to click on "Witcher" title game than on "Charmer"), so it impact sales even when game is not that good, it also helps to reach new non-boardgaming customers. We can say what we want... but the packaging sells. IP can help you immensely with setting up theme, you have already created world, characters, storyline... Even for customer is more often much more easier to jump into already known world... How many mediocre non-ip games there are? HUUUGE number, but you wont heard about them, why? because they are mediocre.
Also with that freedom argument i agree and i dont. Its not universal rule (but i guess you know that). It matters game by game, design by design... really cool example is Witcher OW, you have unnamed heroes in unrelated timeframe and it works wonderfully. Why? because game behind is cool.. its interconnected with theme, it make logical sense, you arent "using red cards"... you are "doing sword swings, pirouettes..". It just feels like thematic. If you would take out all art, texts, everything... and had only mechanics.. would it be a good game? probably.. but its very possible i wouldnt play it. BUT... if you would insert existing characters into it, to be it during Third northern war, you know to alter everything thematic but keeping a game, would it be bad or different? no, because execution is already fantastic. VG witcher implementation is same too, CDPR took existing characters, places everything... put it in "after books" timeframe (never alter already existing boundaries, fans will tear you apart) and bam, recipe for success (one can argue, that they made relatively unknown franchise into popculture phenomena). So what i wanted to say... is that this is more about execution, than about having "huge creative freedom".
We (myself included btw!) are trying to degrade known IP based products to be a cheap cashgrabs, but "issue" is more complex. We dont like being fed with mediocre products just for a sake of having our beloved character on a box. But thats not an issue of producer, but myself as a customer.... Why i havent done proper research on a game like im doing on non-ip game? because i wanted it, i wanted to play as Geralt, or Luke... and i voted with my strongest asset, vallet. Then its much more easier to blame "greedy company" than to look at the mirror and blame myself.
Market is always finding "least resistance pathway".

[@derraldlosey1118]

Definitely agree on Nemesis and Primal.
I thought Dead of Winter is much more Walking Dead than Zombicide.
ISS Vanguard I thought was more Star Trek than Mass Effect.

[@raceofrobots9152]

I like to describe it as Vanguard is Lost In Space but includes red shirts.

[@jettryker]

The new set up looks great!

[@MerlinsManor]

Rogue Angels also gives off the Mass Effect feel to it.

[@Fadeslayer]

Yeah, I think that translates to Mass Effect ... well, more than both ISS Vanguard and what they say will be Modiphius Mass Effect game.

[@MaxwellSchmalzried]

Battlestar Galactica v Unfathomable? I haven’t played both… yet, but I love BSG so much I can’t imagine actually handing the win to Unfathomable.

[@stacie_everdell]

What about Scarface 1920 vs The Godfather: Corleone’s Empire?

[@lordsmyty]

Don't forget Rouge angels vs mass affect game

[@jgsugden]

There are advantages to using IP. First, it draws people in to give it more appeal (and make it easier to table). As you noted with Marvel - sometimes there is a whole draw to playing an IP character that adds enjoyment to the game that is impossible to harness for unknown characters. Second, it allows shorthand where referencing a character provides a framework understanding of what the character is intended to represent in the game. This is evident in games like Unfathomable and Battlestar Galactica - if you know the BSG characters you instantly understand what they're supposed to do well and what they might struggle to do. You get none of that information for the bespoke characters. Third, the inherent understanding of the characters can inspire good game design. This can cut both ways as you may also sabotage a good game by trying to make it 'too faithful' to the IP, but when it works, it can be a huge inspiration for great design. In the end, many games are doing the same thing that the IP originally did - create a great story that rises to a climax and then resolves. Incorporating story beats into the mechanics of a game can make the game design more dynamic.
Star Wars Unlimited, the TCG, would have failed horribly without access to the unique Star Wars IP. You can see throughout the game that the IP concepts of Star Wars have massively informed the design and development of the game. Instead, we have a really wonderful game. The 2 player starter for that game should be a candidate for the best new 2 player game of the year. Marvel United and Marvel Zombies would not have had anywhere near the same level of success with generic or mock characters.
To me, it seems like the biggest problems with IP are that the IP licensing can be lost, forcing the game out of print, and that you can have IP owners that interfere with game design to 'protect their IP'. Even the 'faux' IP equivalents you reference can be taken down if they are too close to the original IP. That can be devastating. The original BSG going out of print was a tragedy. Starcraft was a wonderful game that will never get the respect it deserves. But, generally speaking, I think that using well known IP in a game isn't inherently good or bad - it is more of a multiplier that extends the possibility for the game to be greater - or extends it (especially in case of meddling IP owners) in the bad direction.

[@Darkjin7]

Very cool video and interesting comparison with IP and Non-IP. Great topic and mixing things up for board game conversations and videos!

[@joeferreti9442]

Most of the time it's only that the board games with a known commercial IP are implemented and produced poorly either because of limitations set by the IP holder or because the publisher thought the game would sell good enough and put no heart into the implementation of the game.
That said, I think being creative on your own is always better.
And for example thinking of MTG, WotC had been creative for decades and made pretty good own riffs on themes and IPs for their worlds and it was great, and only recently they started to include foreign IPs into their game and it's a total mess, I hate it with passion.

[@stacie_everdell]

You had me there for a second with the tittle and image on the thumbnail (sounding like you prefer the original IPs).

[@JJ_TheGreat]

I definitely agree about Lost Ruins of Arnak - and I haven't even played it! But just based on the world it is in, I prefer it over a generic Indiana Jones.

[@TabulateNewt8]

Final Girl looking real nervous when the IP lawyers enter the room

[@BoardGameCo]

Lol yes

[@nightlightguy]

Now I wish I could find a reasonably priced copy of Unsettled. :)
Very much agree with Dinogenics. It's an amazing Jurassic Park game.
Would you count Battlestar Galactica / Unfathomable on this list?

[@VaultBoy13]

I haven't played the Indiana Jones game, but the theme for Lost Ruins of Arnak feels pasted on. It looks pretty and the components are nice, but I don't feel like Indiana Jones when I'm playing it. There's no adventure happening here.
The non-IP Indiana Jones that does it better is Fortune and Glory.

[@gregorys9629]

Great topic for a video! The Legendary games (Marvel / Alien / Bond) are the best use of IPs in games I can think of.

[@daniellebackus819]

Marvel Dice Throne is also more appealing to me than the other Dice Thrones sets I have played. I’m not a huge Marvel fan, but I do love Doctor Strange!

[@JJ_TheGreat]

22:24 What about "Mage Knight" - The Movie? Would you be interested in that?

[@BoardGameCo]

I'd watch it...but not clamoring for it

[@morgaknightgames]

Agree with Nemesis and Arnak, probably ISS Vanguard too once I finally get that to the table. The other games you mentioned I haven't tried.
I think a lot of my gut response to IP games comes from growing up in the 90s and early 2000s being horrifically disappointed by IP board and video games that lacked soul. They were absolutely cash grabs with no effort, innovation, or passion (frequently using the same art assets directly from the original property instead of letting an artist play in the sandbox). Nowadays, there definitely has been some improvement in that regard, with some stellar adaptations popping up more frequently (Resident Evil, Deep Rock Galactic, and Assassin's Creed video to board adaptations in particular), but I'm still less likely to go for an IP than something else that feels like a passion project.

[@MaxwellSchmalzried]

You kind of brought it up, but didn’t say, so I’m curious where you put Star Wars: Outer Rim between Xia and Firefly?

[@Fadeslayer]

I think the issue with IPs are that you usually are emotionally linked to original game or story or characters, and you made an exact picture in your mind of it, and almost never they realize your image, or it feels quite cramped down respect to original opus.

[@prisonmike1576]

Alex! What you rate Clash of Cultures Monumental Edition? I see it back there..

[@jcapo5]

You should do a video on games that would make great TV or movies. Like if oathsworn had an anime and that battle music played....oh lordy.
Also etherfields tv show would blow me away

[@sanchoxtube]

Great video topic, love it! Check out Scavenger's Reign for a show that really feels like Unsettled.

[@EfrainRiveraJunior]

Dinogenics with the expansion is amazing.

[@BoardGameCo]

Good to know :)

[@terrisilvers]

Nice new backdrop! Very classy!

[@BoardGameCo]

Thanks :)

[@DapperDano]

From what I hear, Ark Nova and Zoo Tycon fit this, although I still want to try Zoo Tycon

[@BoardGameCo]

Oooh, good choice!

[@AdamJorgensen]

Hey Alex, comparing Street Masters to Street Fighter is a faulty comparison.
Street Masters is modelled on the beat 'em genre of videogame, represented by entries like Streets of Rage and Golden Axe.
Street Fighter is modelled on the fighting game genre of videogames, represented by the namesake game Street Fighter as well as other staples such as Guilty Gear, Tekken, Mortal Kombat and many others.
While there is a lineage between the two genres in the sense that fighting games developed around the same time as beat 'em ups and there was some mechanical cross-pollination between the two, they're not the same genre.
Circling back to Street Masters vs Street Fighter, from what I've seen these games are not that similar? SM is a PvE experience that hews to the beat 'em up genre it aspires to while Street Fighter takes the slightly odd choice of adapting the 2D SF game series to a 3D skirmish game (rather than a 2D style experience like BattleCon, Exceed or Twisted Fables).
I think most people would agree that there is a pretty big difference between a PvE brawling game and a PvP skirmish game, right?
I feel like your research on this topic could have been a little deeper ;-)

[@srb23x]

Came here to say exactly this. Both games have their origin in video games but one is based on side scrolling beat-‘em ups and the based on a fighting game.

[@joeferreti9442]

I'd say the Firefly board game is only a good board game for Firefly fans.

[@otakuofmine]

Yeah, can see it. I backed some board games by now, but none of IPs i like. I like VtM and ESO, but both just did not hook me like something fresh where i like the mechanics too.

[@papiloteBoy]

Liking this new setup.

[@adamrosenquist9531]

Me, a contrarian-
Dune: Imperium and Cthulhu: Death May Die may be my favorite board games ever.

[@TheHEAVYDAN]

Dune Imperium is by far my favorite.

[@joeferreti9442]

Isn't C:DMD it's own Cthulhu-style universe made by CMON, at least to some extent? Cthulhu stuff is public domain anyways so no license and no restrictions.

[@VaultBoy13]

@@joeferreti9442 I don't think the way Cthulhu is handled in Death May Die is much different from how Dune is handled in Dune: Imperium. They're board games that draw from the source to make a game, but thematically there's weirdness for the sake of gameplay.
What's weirder? A bunch of insane investigators shooting Cthulhu in the face or the Harkonnen forming an alliance with the Fremen?

[@adamrosenquist9531]

@@joeferreti9442I can definitely see it that way, but to me it’s like Sherlock Holmes. May be public domain but I still think of it as Arthur Conan Doyle’s.

[@Jawby]

Cool list! Thanks Alex! :)

[@centertainment2969]

I agree with most of these but not because the game having an IP or not but more because the games themselves are more interesting mechanic wise or whatever it is. Some of these are just straight up better games than the IP ones. I would be more interested in knowing your take on games that have non-IP and IP characters in the same game and do you still prefer them such as unmatched or dice throne. In those games I like the non-IP characters but notice the IP characters getting played more.

[@s_215]

Another example : Terrorscape VS Dead By Daylight

[@grog3514]

Terrorscape is a great game. Shocked it didn't get talked about more.

[@s_215]

@@grog3514 yeah always a blast on the table, the strategic thinking also very crunchy and plays quickly

[@zimbo5521]

Monster Hunter World's combat system is amazing and the miniatures are bigger and more impressive than Primal miniatures.

[@BoardGameCo]

Agreed on the second point for sure :)

[@Peetoo6]

I dont like new set, its all clean and professional.. I no longer feel "atleast im not alone with all those boxes around me" issue 😀. No just kidding, new set looks cool, maybe light is little stronger, just please promise us that you will shuffle games as you always did, its like a minigame while watching video, to try to notice if some new game appeared or some other disappeared. And yea.. also couch, we still love the couch (week in review talk, just sitting on a couch, sipping cofee :wink-wink:).

[@NamaTiti]

Now what do you think of board games where they keep the main game play and reskin it with a famous ip?
Am example of games I’ve loved reskinned are -Small world of Warcraft, world of Warcraft wrath of the lich king (Pandemic).

[@siriactuallysara]

Great video

[@BoardGameCo]

Thanks :)

[@siriactuallysara]

Midarra vs final fantasy.
But we don’t have a final fantasy board game yet.

[@BoardGameCo]

I thought there was? Little known one.

[@siriactuallysara]

We had a CCG but that doesn’t count for me.

[@JaredB001]

Great topic and video, but horrible for people like me whose gutter trash level of humour had me giggling non stop.😅

[@BoardGameCo]

Lol

[@grog3514]

Whether you prefer xia or Firefly will almost certainly be determined by how much you prefer ship modification to narrative and characters. I like the Tetris ship mods but i love the crew and stories that come out of firefly.
The thing with firefly is that you absolutely need all the major expansions and you have to use the action house rule.

[@riddlesphinxx]

I almost always think the original is better than the licensed IP.... but I would buy a new "The Expanse" kickstarter board game in a heartbeat (my favorite IP).
I think in general people assume licensed IP is worse... until they don't... until their own personal exception comes up. There's an assumption of cut corners to grab the audience members of that IP. I think your line of "Adaptation for the sake of commercialization" summarizes it well.

[@stacie_everdell]

Sometimes the licensed IP is the original.

[@Jolo5305]

I watched your video and was extremely disappointed.
I assumed that you would be comparing games that were rethemed either into or from IPs like Chaos in the Old World vs Midgard, or DiscWorld Ankh Morpork vs Nanty Narking or Forbidden Stars vs Starcraft: TBG. Instead you took different games and one would have an IP and one wasn't.

[@BoardGameCo]

Thats a great video idea...sadly not this video.

[@joeylaberge3487]

It feels like a gatekeeping video

[@BoardGameCo]

How so?

[@AdamJorgensen]

Wat?

[@joeylaberge3487]

Especially for Street Fighter and Monster Hunter. You seem to have a bias against how big those IP have overshadowed the game's original concept. Your lack of interest for Street fighter is the same as a non gamer seeing those games. They will always prefer their beloved IP over something that feel generic to them.
You asked the question: would those customers buy this game if it wasn't for the IP?
My response to that would be Who cares?
I feel like what is best for the community is to bring eyes on board gaming as a whole and if those IP convert fans from another community, it is a success.
Gacha games can show this a bit. Although most of them are the same, the biggest IP always thrives longer. Gameplay is better when you have love the characters, places, world, etc

[@joeylaberge3487]

I hope this clears things up @boardgameco