This is my favourite Irulan. I am not fond of this series but several casting choices were excellent. I like it that they tried to stay close to the book.
Great double conversation. That would take great cognitive skill. My only quibble would be that surely if not the guards then surely the Emperor would be aware that the Bene Gesserit have this skill and would ensure that they are both monitored for their verbal and non verbal communication.
It not so much a full fledged sign language as much as baseballs signals mastered as if a martial art (top layer of conversation above redirected by handsigns below) certain signs like [her flat hand placed on her belly clearly meant "child" (as in the womb) the fingers in an 'o' meant kill. As in to zero out the equation. When the reverend mother says Muad'dib (wize mouse) she made the mano cornuto. A very controversial hand signal. When she signald 'throne' (it was a fist pressing into a cuped hand) my thinking is it is a [pestle and mortar.] As in alchemy (they play with genectics like its chemistry.)
I think that's why she tried to have her back to the guards. Also, I got the vibe that the nad signals are in conjuction with the spoken sentance. Paul and Allia would certanily be able to understand if they were in the room too.
Oh he knows and allowed it. He knew about the scheming and the contraceptive in Chani's food. He allowed it because it extended Chani's life. Paul knew if Chani bore his children it means death for her. He's aware.
And how Irulan continously defy BG as much as she can, but when it comes killing children? She wont do it! She is inherently good person, forced to be cunning for survival
Including the secret sign language of the Bene Geserit is a nice touch. It adds a layer of complexity to the story the original Dune lacked. The Bene Geserits powers and abilities and their grand genetic breeding program were not explored in depth in the movies. The Witches are really the power behind the Royal Houses. I hope the 2021 Dune delves more deeply into their history, as well as the Butlerian Jihad. Mankind's war against thinking machines, the development of the Mentat, and maybe even the Bene Tleilax . The last was not even mentioned in the first movies. It's fascinating and horrifying to think about the monstrous experiments they conduct in their labs.
@@williamsmith9948 Very much looking forward to seeing Jason Momoa as Duncan Idaho. I think he has the ability to increase his range. And he's one of Hollywood's best sword fighters.
We see a Bene Tleilax creation in Dune 2021, and the hint as to its origin is given when the Reverend Mother commands it with the voice. I'd say much of the information is there, but it's very subtle, obviously far easier to understand if you've read the book prior to it. My one gripe was that they don't cover some basic information like how combat has evolved, how the spacing guild has so much power as to dictate interstellar travel, and the mentat/BG goals/origins. But hopefully this will be covered in part 2, everything else is spot on.
@@Asdasxel Sign language in the real world relies on large visible signals and generally requires more time to confer less information than equivalent vocal communication. People who translate spoken language to sign language rely on simplifying what is said. That's because sign simply as a inherent thing has less bandwidth than sound which can compress huge amounts of harmonic information into a short time frame. But the Bene Gesserit information somehow manages to compress more information into smaller and more subtle motions than are actually used by sign language. You can do that if your language is meant to express only a limited vocabulary about a particular topic, but you can't do that with a full and rich language. There isn't a way to translate wiggle this finger into long complex and nuanced sentences. If anyone was observing Bene Gesserit sign, either they could easily observe the signs and know at least there was information crossing on a bandwidth they couldn't translate but could observe, or else the Bene Gesserit would have to minimize the amount of information they conveyed through the hidden channel. It works only in fiction. And back to the main point, Thieves Cant is a real world thing that is absolutely nothing like this. It's a slang based on sing song rhyming language and invented words, where often words are replaced by other words they rhyme with. There are close modern parallels in the (for example) Atlanta gang slang that used to be called 'Jive'. You want real understanding of what Thieves Cant is actually like, either check out some books on it from a college library or just do some browsing at Urban Dictionary.
@celebrim1 I respectfully disagree. A person can be very smart. With proper training, "miracles" are workable. This isn't "superhuman", it's "supernormal."
The irulan potrayal is soo tame in this. In the book, ooh boy. Especially in Dune Mesiah, Dune God Emperor... How Irulan still stayed and not ditched the atreides are beyond me
As cool as this is, I always find it strange that the firemen guards don’t notice the hand signs. We are always told and shown how life on arrakis makes them sharp, alert and watchful
I had similar thoughts, but I'm just taking g it as a narrative conceit that tuensign language we see is greatly exaggerated for the benefit of the viewer, in reality their gestures would be so minute, only a bene gesserit would see them, a bit lilentje way in a play, a character can have an aside, and we all.accept that the other characters on stage cannot hear them.
In the book the hand signs are more subtle than how they're being shown here. In the books it's described more as normal gesticulation that has double meanings
Signs are exaggerated and camera focuses on them with subtitles so naturally you spot them. If the camera was in one place and they just talked without subtitles you wouldnt see nothing out of the ordinary, just a conversation, just like the guards.
This is one part that always bothered me. Not having any cameras or the guards even looking, maybe even a deaf guard to be immune to the Voice is such a gigantic oversight. I guess maybe though if Paul already knew then maybe he let it go on, but Stilgar not putting more into place always seemed weird to me.
It's deliberate on Paul's part to let the scheming takes it's course. He knew about Irulan being ordered to put a contraceptive in Chani's food to keep her from conceiving. He knew once that happened Chani will die from childbirth. He told Irulan he was grateful extending Chani's life.
Saying one thing with your mouth and saying another with your hands. Hell nah. Dude, I can't even pee and shit at the same time, never mind multitask on this level.
Democrats kill children by the millions. Who is colder, she willing to kill another's child that is a threat to her or the mother killing her own healthy child that doesn't threaten her physical life? Exceptions for the life of the mother most pro life make; but not for convenience.
She is, but that's the Bene Gesserit for you. She birthed two daughters by Baron Harokonnen. She killed the first because the girl wasn't "right". Was raped by the Baron the second time (where she inflicted a disease on him, using her abilities). Watched that second daughter (Lady Jessica) basically throw 13,000 years of genetic manipulation into a blender, by giving birth to a son (instead of a daughter intended to be bred with Feyd Rautha), and bring about the Kwisatch Haderach out of the Bene Gesserit's control a full generation early, throw the galaxy into turmoil, topple an empire, upset the balance of power and generally reign havok on humanity. She was pretty done playing games at that point.
This sounds cool but it is a false comparison. The difference between God and human is much more than the difference between a human and an animal. As God in His/Her essence is love, any ego induced quest for dominance on behalf of any conscious life form will ultimately fail.
In the books, it is much more subtle. You would not see their hands move even if you are looking for it. In the books its not like sign language, its very small movements of the face, shoulders and hands combined. (If I remember correctly.)
In the books, the Bene Gesserit don't actually have a language like this, they rely on much, much more subtle body language. This "battle language" is rather from the Atreides House, where, for example, Jessica could have an audience at court, meanwhile she moves her right finger (without moving the resting hand) slightly to the left telling her guards to covertly assassinate the convoy after they leave.
I seem to remember this scene from the book and sentences like ".... but her fingers were drumming...... insisting on...." something like that, can't really remember. So if that's the case then some sort of subtle finger signals were involved in this instance.
This conversation does not follow the book at all. Helen Mohaim didn't know that Chani was given a contraceptive in her food, the result of it's withdrawal being INCREASED fertility (the twin birth) and Chani's subsequent death. I'm glad I didn't watch the TV series. It's very badly done.
in the book the sign language used is only refered to as "fingertalk" and even then it's a description of how they're communicating rather than an actual name for it. Although the Atreides do have some hand signals of their own, Paul uses one a chapter or so later to make a command to Stilgar. Of course we're never told if that is part of the Atreides battle language or if it's a Fremen thing or something Paul has designed for his own inner circle, it's just "the private hand-signal which made the order an imperative".
I haven't read any of the books in some time though I am left feeling Rebecca derived the atriedes battle language from the bene gesserit finger talk. Not sure if that is ever confirmed outright.
The "finger talk" was shown in the book as they said one thing while the fingers showed another thing. Here it's more subtle - the finger talk seems to modify the spoken remarks and the remarks seem to modify the gestures. So you needed the two together to make sense of the message being given between these two. I think that the movie exceeded the book here.
This was a TV show. You can't be as subtle as in the books, you need to "show" everything clearly so the viewers understand what's happening. On the books the "finger-talk" can't be seen if you are not trained.
Duncan Idaho it's in the series. Even if you don't consider the books not written by Frank Herbert himself "canon", the fact is that the other books are a continuation of the original and the material must be considered.
@@daviddavidson9923 I'm not lazy, I prefer complicated stories like this acted out. In a movie. I'm knocking people who like reading novels. I'm just not interested. When it's in movie form then give me a call
@@rjddurhamnc She's a princess, she can change her hair color to whatever she wants. The only time when hair color is important is when trying to figure out which of Robert Baratheon's children is really his
Nonsensical writing. After they helped conspire to kill her Husband and son ; then betrays her son. She decides to go back to the Benejezzeriet ? And conspires against the Fremwn who helped her son and her survive against the Empire and Harkonnens? This is nonsensical and no fluid writing and poor character development. After Dune, the story writing went all Downhill. One trick piny. Oh it’s true, it’s true!
I like this version cause they don't all look like parasite monsters.. That princess & Rev Mother are beautiful & graceful. The Fayde casting in Lynchs still bothers me.
I can't imagine the level of concentration needed to carry on two conversations at the same time, one with the voice and the other with the hands!
Julie Cox is great as Irulan, shame we haven't really seen her in more roles since this.
Agree! She brought the right kind of regal beauty, and is very plausible as Sarandon's sister (even if their respective ages don't follow the books)
This is my favourite Irulan. I am not fond of this series but several casting choices were excellent. I like it that they tried to stay close to the book.
Great double conversation. That would take great cognitive skill. My only quibble would be that surely if not the guards then surely the Emperor would be aware that the Bene Gesserit have this skill and would ensure that they are both monitored for their verbal and non verbal communication.
It not so much a full fledged sign language as much as baseballs signals mastered as if a martial art (top layer of conversation above redirected by handsigns below) certain signs like [her flat hand placed on her belly clearly meant "child" (as in the womb) the fingers in an 'o' meant kill. As in to zero out the equation. When the reverend mother says Muad'dib (wize mouse) she made the mano cornuto. A very controversial hand signal. When she signald 'throne' (it was a fist pressing into a cuped hand) my thinking is it is a [pestle and mortar.] As in alchemy (they play with genectics like its chemistry.)
I think that's why she tried to have her back to the guards. Also, I got the vibe that the nad signals are in conjuction with the spoken sentance.
Paul and Allia would certanily be able to understand if they were in the room too.
Oh he knows and allowed it. He knew about the scheming and the contraceptive in Chani's food. He allowed it because it extended Chani's life. Paul knew if Chani bore his children it means death for her. He's aware.
And how Irulan continously defy BG as much as she can, but when it comes killing children? She wont do it! She is inherently good person, forced to be cunning for survival
Including the secret sign language of the Bene Geserit is a nice touch. It adds a layer of complexity to the story the original Dune lacked. The Bene Geserits powers and abilities and their grand genetic breeding program were not explored in depth in the movies. The Witches are really the power behind the Royal Houses. I hope the 2021 Dune delves more deeply into their history, as well as the Butlerian Jihad. Mankind's war against thinking machines, the development of the Mentat, and maybe even the Bene Tleilax . The last was not even mentioned in the first movies. It's fascinating and horrifying to think about the monstrous experiments they conduct in their labs.
lady jessica in new dune movie also uses this sign language..
IDK the trailer looks like a dumb action movie with a side of teen romance...
Agree.
@@williamsmith9948
Very much looking forward to seeing Jason Momoa as Duncan Idaho. I think he has the ability to increase his range. And he's one of Hollywood's best sword fighters.
We see a Bene Tleilax creation in Dune 2021, and the hint as to its origin is given when the Reverend Mother commands it with the voice. I'd say much of the information is there, but it's very subtle, obviously far easier to understand if you've read the book prior to it. My one gripe was that they don't cover some basic information like how combat has evolved, how the spacing guild has so much power as to dictate interstellar travel, and the mentat/BG goals/origins. But hopefully this will be covered in part 2, everything else is spot on.
For anyone who plays D&D who wanted to know what thieves cant is like, this is it.
Thieves cant is a real thing that exists in the real world. This form of communication does not. It's super human.
Or the drow's sign language.
@@celebrim1 It's just sign language, what's supernatural about it?
@@Asdasxel Sign language in the real world relies on large visible signals and generally requires more time to confer less information than equivalent vocal communication. People who translate spoken language to sign language rely on simplifying what is said. That's because sign simply as a inherent thing has less bandwidth than sound which can compress huge amounts of harmonic information into a short time frame. But the Bene Gesserit information somehow manages to compress more information into smaller and more subtle motions than are actually used by sign language. You can do that if your language is meant to express only a limited vocabulary about a particular topic, but you can't do that with a full and rich language. There isn't a way to translate wiggle this finger into long complex and nuanced sentences. If anyone was observing Bene Gesserit sign, either they could easily observe the signs and know at least there was information crossing on a bandwidth they couldn't translate but could observe, or else the Bene Gesserit would have to minimize the amount of information they conveyed through the hidden channel.
It works only in fiction.
And back to the main point, Thieves Cant is a real world thing that is absolutely nothing like this. It's a slang based on sing song rhyming language and invented words, where often words are replaced by other words they rhyme with. There are close modern parallels in the (for example) Atlanta gang slang that used to be called 'Jive'. You want real understanding of what Thieves Cant is actually like, either check out some books on it from a college library or just do some browsing at Urban Dictionary.
@celebrim1 I respectfully disagree. A person can be very smart. With proper training, "miracles" are workable. This isn't "superhuman", it's "supernormal."
Julie Cox was gorgeous in both Dune & Children of Dune.
LOVE Irulan's dress
Irulan has a beautiful ass.
You can tell the costumes were done by an Academy awrd winning designer.
She’s ass-tastic and the producers knew it lol
Rewatch needed
I love how irulans character was developed in this version. Such an improvement over the books.
Completely agree, in the books Irulan was basically background furniture.
Have you read the first chapters of Dune Messiah? She carries the narrative.
@@susannaharnhart4910 That's quite the overstatement.
@@frostyrobot7689
Irulan was for me, the cute chick who writes books and gets cucked by Chani Kynes.
Really? An improvement on Frank Herbert's masterpiece, uh?
I really liked this scene's rendition. It conveyed the action in the book well.
If you can you should add the "double speak" featuring Lady Jessica and Irulan.
I would love to see that.
I hope the new movie makes enough to get a part 2 and then does well and they have the intent on going to Dune Messiah and Children of Dune.
Julie Cox, total babe
I love those cards she has.
Did she just call for fast ball down the center?
Ask the Astros they had it on TV..
I never tire of seeing *this* conversation in code.
I started to learn ASL, first because of Drows of D&D, then because of Atreides secret hand-battle language.
The irulan potrayal is soo tame in this. In the book, ooh boy. Especially in Dune Mesiah, Dune God Emperor... How Irulan still stayed and not ditched the atreides are beyond me
Theresa May was so good in this.
Luckily she didn't have to dance in the role.
As cool as this is, I always find it strange that the firemen guards don’t notice the hand signs.
We are always told and shown how life on arrakis makes them sharp, alert and watchful
I had similar thoughts, but I'm just taking g it as a narrative conceit that tuensign language we see is greatly exaggerated for the benefit of the viewer, in reality their gestures would be so minute, only a bene gesserit would see them, a bit lilentje way in a play, a character can have an aside, and we all.accept that the other characters on stage cannot hear them.
In the book the hand signs are more subtle than how they're being shown here.
In the books it's described more as normal gesticulation that has double meanings
Signs are exaggerated and camera focuses on them with subtitles so naturally you spot them. If the camera was in one place and they just talked without subtitles you wouldnt see nothing out of the ordinary, just a conversation, just like the guards.
This is one part that always bothered me. Not having any cameras or the guards even looking, maybe even a deaf guard to be immune to the Voice is such a gigantic oversight. I guess maybe though if Paul already knew then maybe he let it go on, but Stilgar not putting more into place always seemed weird to me.
*Her cell was guarded by Feydakin that Paul trained to resist the Voice.*
They have changed her schedule in light of the situation.
He knew. He wanted Chani to get poisoned. It actually extended her life. It’s explained in the book.
It's deliberate on Paul's part to let the scheming takes it's course. He knew about Irulan being ordered to put a contraceptive in Chani's food to keep her from conceiving. He knew once that happened Chani will die from childbirth. He told Irulan he was grateful extending Chani's life.
ASL 11,192
💚👽
Saying one thing with your mouth and saying another with your hands. Hell nah. Dude, I can't even pee and shit at the same time, never mind multitask on this level.
That woman is cold!!!!
Democrats kill children by the millions. Who is colder, she willing to kill another's child that is a threat to her or the mother killing her own healthy child that doesn't threaten her physical life?
Exceptions for the life of the mother most pro life make; but not for convenience.
The Bene Gesserit do not concern such frivolous things as love.
She is, but that's the Bene Gesserit for you. She birthed two daughters by Baron Harokonnen. She killed the first because the girl wasn't "right". Was raped by the Baron the second time (where she inflicted a disease on him, using her abilities). Watched that second daughter (Lady Jessica) basically throw 13,000 years of genetic manipulation into a blender, by giving birth to a son (instead of a daughter intended to be bred with Feyd Rautha), and bring about the Kwisatch Haderach out of the Bene Gesserit's control a full generation early, throw the galaxy into turmoil, topple an empire, upset the balance of power and generally reign havok on humanity.
She was pretty done playing games at that point.
Got to be cold to be kind baby
Despite the test of the Gom Jabbar, the Bene Gesserit don't get it: God does not submit to humans the way humans don't submit to animals.
Damn that's a great quote
Except 'god' does..the Golden Path is all about submission..'that which submits, rules'; as opposed to 'what you cannot control, you must accept'.
This sounds cool but it is a false comparison. The difference between God and human is much more than the difference between a human and an animal. As God in His/Her essence is love, any ego induced quest for dominance on behalf of any conscious life form will ultimately fail.
That’s just like.. your opinion, man
Geico commerial before this...
Cool slideshow
Bene Geserit must be great at coaching baseball too.
lol, could you imagine how good it could be ? They could cipher-shift all the way through while fully aware everyone was watching.
why is this running at like 12 fps
A movie so unknown it doesn't show up on IMDB?
Es una serie ?
That's pretty interesting.
I wonder how it reads in the books.
In the books, it is much more subtle. You would not see their hands move even if you are looking for it. In the books its not like sign language, its very small movements of the face, shoulders and hands combined. (If I remember correctly.)
In the books, the Bene Gesserit don't actually have a language like this, they rely on much, much more subtle body language. This "battle language" is rather from the Atreides House, where, for example, Jessica could have an audience at court, meanwhile she moves her right finger (without moving the resting hand) slightly to the left telling her guards to covertly assassinate the convoy after they leave.
I seem to remember this scene from the book and sentences like ".... but her fingers were drumming...... insisting on...." something like that, can't really remember. So if that's the case then some sort of subtle finger signals were involved in this instance.
Oh, my!
Forgot I left this comment, and now I actually have the books and have read them.
Thanks, though. This is incredibly interesting.
This conversation does not follow the book at all.
Helen Mohaim didn't know that Chani was given a contraceptive in her food, the result of it's withdrawal being INCREASED fertility (the twin birth) and Chani's subsequent death.
I'm glad I didn't watch the TV series. It's very badly done.
Are they crips or bloods
Bruh 😂
😂😂😂🇮🇪
She reppin West Side! Sandworms son
Is this from Kyle mgloglin fine movie or was there another??
Definitely another; a made for TV mini-series that is worth the watch.
Video is glitching.
They should have swapped Susan with the Bene Gesserit actress. I think that could have done better.
but she did make a very convincing Princess Wensicia. I do agree a Mohaim role would've been perfect.
Am I the only one this is jumpy for ?
DAT ASS
Question - is that doublespeak technique also in the books, or was this specifically adapted to this live series?
It was used in the books as well :) Another term for this type of communication in the Dune series was also known as battle language.
Choksoba I think it was called. It's a sign language used in the militaries of the Noble Houses of the Laansarad.
in the book the sign language used is only refered to as "fingertalk" and even then it's a description of how they're communicating rather than an actual name for it. Although the Atreides do have some hand signals of their own, Paul uses one a chapter or so later to make a command to Stilgar. Of course we're never told if that is part of the Atreides battle language or if it's a Fremen thing or something Paul has designed for his own inner circle, it's just "the private hand-signal which made the order an imperative".
I haven't read any of the books in some time though I am left feeling Rebecca derived the atriedes battle language from the bene gesserit finger talk. Not sure if that is ever confirmed outright.
The "finger talk" was shown in the book as they said one thing while the fingers showed another thing.
Here it's more subtle - the finger talk seems to modify the spoken remarks and the remarks seem to modify the gestures. So you needed the two together to make sense of the message being given between these two.
I think that the movie exceeded the book here.
voice techniques and they are not supposed to be so emotional but impassive and implacable
This was a TV show. You can't be as subtle as in the books, you need to "show" everything clearly so the viewers understand what's happening. On the books the "finger-talk" can't be seen if you are not trained.
They were adept at concealing emotion, to be sure--it was the Mentats, though, who strove for complete supression of emotion.
@@cherylannemason I agree, because emotion clouds reason, impairing Mentat function.
And not one guard observed the obvious hand communication. 🙄🙄🙄
If I was Paul Muad'Dib I would have had Mohiam executed at the first opportunity. And if the BG didn't like it screw em!
Mike Gallant well she was his grandmother... which is probably why he did not want her executed.
Not canon.
Duncan Idaho it's in the series. Even if you don't consider the books not written by Frank Herbert himself "canon", the fact is that the other books are a continuation of the original and the material must be considered.
If you were Muad'Dib, you would have seen the the best path was the one already chosen. And the one we read about/watched in the show.
Not a very smart decision. Executing an enemy will only create more enemies. And you don't want to piss the Bene Gesserit.
Minimalist sign language?
Yes, and it looks like it complements what they are saying out loud.
0:25
Why this video lags so bad. 🤮
One of the most confusing series in the known universe....
Read the books
@@daviddavidson9923
Not everybody prefers to read the books. Let alone have the time.
@@chosenfallen2024 No. Stop being lazy and go read the books.
@@daviddavidson9923
I'm not lazy, I prefer complicated stories like this acted out. In a movie. I'm knocking people who like reading novels.
I'm just not interested. When it's in movie form then give me a call
@@chosenfallen2024 then you truly are a failure
M E W A N T ' T H E M A C H I N E W A R S ' O N T H E B I G S C R E E N . . .
PaulxIrulan = omegasussy.
In what universe is Irulan a brunette?
The mini series universe lol
What kind of a lunatic complains about Julie Cox's appearance? XD
@@SuperNovaJinckUFO I'm not, I'm complaining about her character. Herbert is very specific. Irulan is a blonde.
@@rjddurhamnc She's a princess, she can change her hair color to whatever she wants. The only time when hair color is important is when trying to figure out which of Robert Baratheon's children is really his
@@toddkes5890 Hair dying was forbidden due to the Butlerian Jihad?
Nonsensical writing. After they helped conspire to kill her Husband and son ; then betrays her son. She decides to go back to the Benejezzeriet ? And conspires against the Fremwn who helped her son and her survive against the Empire and Harkonnens? This is nonsensical and no fluid writing and poor character development. After Dune, the story writing went all Downhill. One trick piny. Oh it’s true, it’s true!
I like this version cause they don't all look like parasite monsters..
That princess & Rev Mother are beautiful & graceful.
The Fayde casting in Lynchs still bothers me.
So even 20,000 years from now women will still talk while meaning something completely different from the words they say.
terrible acting there’s no sense of mysteriousness in the Reverend Mother. She could pass for the wife ofthe local Polish butcher
If you can sense the mysteriousness she had failed. The reed bending in the wind does not fire off a rocket.
Acting and production look like middle school with no rehearsals.