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If you saw this video, don't wait, buy yours now. It's an engine life saver! But a touch heavy on the clutch, change it's fluid to a DOT 4+ at the same time the fluid damper pulley gets installed. Critical mod 👌
Thanks for addressing this, I can't stand it when people think that they don't have to run a damper because they had their rotating assembly balanced with their new billet crank pulley. There's a shop near me that pushes their custom crank pulley and I've seen a few different failures caused by it and it's never been good. The worst part is that they won't admit that their "balanced" pulley is the cause of the problems.
Appreciate the content! I don’t have a custom engine or anything special like that, but my harmonic damper was giving out on my SUV, and I wanted to learn more about the parts importance. Thank you :)
When I see your Interviews i feel like there is no other person that could extract more knowledge from a short live interview than you. Hands down the most valueable car/tuning content on youtube. Greetings from germany:)
i have friends that are drag racers with 7 - 8 second quarter mile cars and i was told a story how this one car had a fluid dampener on it. the car sat for a long time...long enough for the fluid to solidify in one place in the dampener. once the cat was started, it destroyed the engine cause the balance was off like a brick in a washing machine. maybe fluid dampener has corrected this issue since then, but maybe you can research that. good luck💪
@@PANTYEATR1 Not sure what your friend was running, but it wasn't a Fluidamper , they have a solid metal ring, incased in the damper, with a very thin layer of Silicone in between, it's can't pool because there is no empty space in the damper, even if in somehow went solid which it won't, it would just act like a solid pulley. Banks Power just did a good video on it ua-cam.com/video/OEd6tFbc86o/v-deo.html&t=1320
@@taznz1 i could be confusing the fluid dampener with another brand that is actually filed with a fluid..which one could it be??? I'll text my friend and report back.
I used a Fluidampr on a CTS-V1 with an 18lbs flywheel (compared to the 40+lbs stock dual-mass chonker) and I could feel the difference just going through the revs in neutral. Idle was smoother and less chatter when releasing the clutch.
Just got done rebuilding my 08 Jeep GC SRT to a 426 I came across this part and didn’t think too much but it saying it’s just an under drive pulley boy was I wrong I guess next paycheck I’ll be grabbing me one! This was great info!
Incredible questioning. Great interview. To the point and very valuable information. It sounded like a really good sports player interview only with car parts. Love it 😆🤘
The stock crank is designed with main journal overlap with the rod journals. The crank will have a characteristic harmonic. The stock damper is tuned for that harmonic. Stroker cranks, lightweight flywheels, lightweight pistons and rods all affect the harmonics. Vibrations affect oil pumps, distributor spark scatter, and the camshaft.
You will enjoy this, it discusses harmonics a little deeper from the perspective of an engineer deciding where they occur in the rev range, and how how: www.hpacademy.com/blog/88kg-500hp-10500rpm-hayabusa-v8-radical-sportscars-rpe-v8-tech-talk/ - Taz.
Great video as always! Would be awesome if you could do a deep dive on fluid-filled dampers, like Fluidampr or Innovators West. I had good luck with those on GM LS/LT(new) cars with light flywheels.
I put an ati on my 400rwkw barra motor, first start up i could tell it was running smoother. Need one for my 300zx single turbo 450rwkw motor now, it currently has a alloy lightweight crank pulley that was on motor when it got balanced after being built.
Fluidampr has a more broadband range of frequencies that it dampens. It's completely sealed and the damping media is a special silicone fluid which unless overheated somehow it essentially lasts for a lifetime. ATI can get away with lower overall mass I believe due to frequency tuning being easier to design as it is a standard relation of spring constant and mass of the inertia ring , where in the Fluidampr it is related to the mass of the inertia ring, fluid viscosity and shear area as well as the gap between the shear faces due to fluid flow dynamics. Personally i use a Fluidampr on my modified street car for years and absolute happy with it so far:)
@Nayr747 it's really two different approaches to achieving the same outcome. We've used both ATI and Fluidampr in the past and can't complain about the performance of either. We haven't got to a point where we have been in a position to compare the pros and cons of each style sorry.
@@hpa101 The ATI is often press fit which can be a pain in the ass when you're in a pinch. The Fluidampr is generally not press fit. The ATI needs rebuilds every ten years minimum and this also implies the rubber will go bad at some point (like the oem 2jz pulleys). I don't like to repeat past sins hence going with a Fluidampr which doesn't need a rebuild. ATI's are tuned for a narrower power range and the more you stray from the intended power the less it will dampen harmonics. The Fluidamprs don't have an advertised power range but I'm sure there's a limit where you would want to go custom. They're more adaptive to changes in power level. I also seem to remember slightly different specs for the safety ratings but I'd have to go dig up my research to confirm. This is all for 2jz pulleys. I talked with Fluidampr while I was researching the benefits of either brand. Good folks and they suggested ATI also makes good products - as long as they fit your build goals long term.
In small block applications, why don’t we see harmonic dampers integrated into the big cam gear like on the Cosworth DFX? This would allow the cam drive to maintain constant angular velocity even when harmonics are transferred through the crank.
Sweet! I just built a factory short block 255 with a few extras and I was wondering about things to help smooth out the power curve and provide some longevity.
when you say you could feel the difference, what did you feel? I am looking at one for my car, which reading and watching this info would really benefit from one.
It’s a bit disappointing that ATI seems to lack interest in developing dampers for engines not in their current line up. I know several guys, including myself who have contacted ATI asking for a torsional damper for Volvo red block engines without even getting a response. Instead we’ve had to resort to adapting dampers meant for other engines for our builds.
Wow! Great video! I have an old 99 Citroen rally car that came with a damper from factory and here all take out it and replace with an lightwight aluminium pulley... Thanks! I never gonna replace this piece
When I read the title I thought it was going to be about that thing they put in the nose of that F1 Renault, could you do a vid on that? Even though this wasn't what I expecting, I feel I learnt a whole lot, thanks Andre and keep the good work, you always know your stuff and that really stands out, making your output so special! (Really liked that Mountune interview as well). NB just checked the Renault thing, it was a tuned mass damper, still I'm fascinated, I'd really like to see a video on them, apparently they ran them on the front & rear.
The ATI can be rebuilt as the elastimers are doing the damping where as fluid dampers cannot because they use fluid. I used to work for ATI. They make great products but the company is horrible to work for. I spent 2 years of hell as one of their employees.
Fluidampr has a more broadband range of frequencies that it dampens. It's completely sealed and the damping media is a special silicone fluid which unless overheated somehow it essentially lasts for a lifetime. ATI can get away with lower overall mass I believe due to frequency tuning being easier to design as it is a standard relation of spring constant and mass of the inertia ring , where in the Fluidampr it is related to the mass of the inertia ring, fluid viscosity and shear area as well as the gap between the shear faces due to fluid flow dynamics. Personally i use a Fluidampr on my modified street car for years and absolute happy with it so far:)
Balancing a crank with the balancer on is not a bad thing (except with a fluid one)... While balancing a crank it is at a static constant RPM (crank velocity is not changing) thus the balancer is not functioning thus not making a difference.
4:20 Could this be a reason for the oil pump failure problem on Nissan RB25's when revved to certain RPMs? I wonder, could there be a dangerous resonant point in the standard pulley damper that nobody is aware of that the oil pump really doesn't like? And when the revs are brought to and often held at that point, the oil pump soon $h!t$ itself? Ignore me... Just thinking out loud... 😌
I should really *watch the whole video first* before I comment my thoughts, it will save me a whole lot more time, and I'll look a little less idiotic. 🤦🏼♂️
hahaha, you're all good! Being engaged and having questions as you go is all part of it, but Andre does try to round off as many loose ends as he can during interviews for you guys :) - Taz.
Would you have one for the 1KR-DE engine? This is a tiny 3 cyl engine in the Toyota Agya in Indonesia. I drive it hard in the mountains. The stock harmonic balancer can't handle the abuse. Please help! The little bugger shakes like a paint mixer in 1st gear.
What's the difference of an RB26 750HP Ati damper vs 1000HP Ati damper? I don't need 1000hp but its the only thing thats currently available, should I wait for 750hp. I'm not sure what the effect of the Underdrives and Overdrives
The underdrive/overdrive is achieved by the size difference of the pulley shells on ATI dampeners. Underdrive is beneficial to reduce parasitic losses from the engine by under driving the accessories (AC, power steering, alternator). Overdrives pulleys are beneficial to crank driven superchargers by increasing the supercharger RPM and therefore the max Psi output,albeit at the sacrifice of some HP from the crank.
Maybe I missed it but is there any reason why you wouldn't or shouldn't pick the lightest damper that ATI makes? Is it only heavier because of the size of the pulley for that particular engine?
Yes but is a dampener needed for a built K20a motor revving to 9000rpm. Maybe 10000rpm+ or super high horse power. I’m trying to lighten the load so I can rev free as possible. I’m asking because i was in the market of buying lightened pulleys and was going to buy a light crank pulley until I saw this.
Interesting. Despite all the "institutional knowledge" available, controlling and damping vibrations and harmonics, especially over a broad range of loads and rpms is still, at best, an educated guess. Perhaps someone could (should?) come up with an active and variable system, or do we just need to accept that the "shaking and shimmering" is just one of those unwanted limitations/side-effects of the reciprocating ICE?
@@getahanddown If you're inferring that there are some engines that do not suffer from some sort of vibration and harmonics, albeit less than some and over a narrow range and regardless of configuration, then I've missed something. I'm always learning. But if you're saying that "certain layouts" which may not necessarily be "combustion engines" have similar problems then I agree with you 100%. No argument.
@@acruzp Yes I do, but I've based my comments above as much from what I've learnt more from people that were completely unencumbered by tertiary qualifications and from >50 years of experience than what did from my years at university.
@@-MacCat- I agree with you. But I am sure you can figure out what are the important frequencies to battle are. @ 700$ each for my car. This is a crazy cash cow. I really feels like they are just simply trying to separate the load from the belts from the crank. Generally speaking on the clutch side, you have a sprung clutch.
How does this help with a lightened flywheel on a EJ engine lets just say. I see this having many benefits in high loads situations where aftermarket flywheels and clutches are being used which also acts as a counterweight on the crank.....
How many of these dampers an engine needs? Just one or it need it in different places? I will l guess everywhere there is a pulley?Sorry for the stupid question.
For this purpose, just the one. This video explains a bit more about harmonics from an engine design stand point that might help you understand what is going on a little deeper too - Taz. www.hpacademy.com/blog/88kg-500hp-10500rpm-hayabusa-v8-radical-sportscars-rpe-v8-tech-talk/
What I don't understand is... The only thing attached to my crank pulley is the rubber belt to the alternator. It was originally a harmonic/damper pulley on a Silvia SR20DET. But water pump now electric and air-con is removed. So, is the rubber belt and alternator really going to affect the need for a harmonic damper, or can I crack on with my ebay solid alloy pulley? Another thought process i have... If i had a big enough charged battery to run the car and removed the alternator, belt and crank pulley, and somehow could compare how much different 'stress' on the crank there would be compared to with pulley/belt/alternator, is it really that much? I totally understand that 99% manufacturers use them but is it only really necessary when the crank pulley is running the air-conditioning, waterpump and alternator etc? Cheers! :)
Your auxiliaires are not the issue when it comes to harmonics, James from RPE covers the topic nicely here too, worth a watch: www.hpacademy.com/blog/88kg-500hp-10500rpm-hayabusa-v8-radical-sportscars-rpe-v8-tech-talk/ - Taz.
@@hpa101 ok thank you. So imagine if there was nothing to spin on a belt, no alternator, water pump etc. Does this mean that it would be even worse on crank to have zero crank pulley or a solid one? Hypothetical question, as I am definitely going to get an ATI or Ross one to make sure, much cheaper than engine rebuild... Thanks!
I'm sure they are referring to different diameters in relation to over spinning or slower spinning in relation to the RPM of the standard damper and pulleys. You can slow down a belt speed for an alternator for example
@@IsThatGeneralhonesty it's horses for courses. I need to run a larger underdriven pulley on my alternator for example on my LS1 because of the cam and higher than average revving it achieves. That was leading to early failure points for the overspeed on the alternator windings. Just a personal example of mine but only to do with the charging system but can affect things from water system, boost levels on a belt driven positive displacement power adder and other variables too. Hope it shines a bit of light on the topic for you. Smaller size pulley on a driven accessory from a uniform balancer pulley will spin the accessories faster or overdrive then, and vice versa to most applications
so how does the crank pulley dampen the torsion going into the oil pump and timing belt, when they are not connected to the crank via the dampened pulley, it stops the torsional vibrations going into the alternator and other crank pulley driven accessories. i would love to see an in depth analysts on how much vibration is in the timing gear and oil pump with and without a damper, because from my understanding, its only saving them accessories.
I want my motor back to normal performance condition. It’s limping and Idky. I press th gas’s pedal and my car hesitates in the heat like about 80degrees out and I’ve lost a lot of stock power and I feel like I’ve done a lot to my TRD Camry 2012 to help it not do that but what could I do or fix to get slot or normal power back restored?
Take the TRD stickers off and fill it up with low grade gas. Put your Uber sticker on the back window and go on about your business. It's a Camry pos, nothing sporty about it.
Your internal engine components are balanced separately, a damper does not do that for you or deal with imbalance, it is there to damper harmonic vibrations =) We don't cover crank balancing, that is something 99% of people will get a professional with the applicable engineering equipment to do for them, but we cover piston and rod balancing which will help answer your other questions there I hope - Taz. www.hpacademy.com/blog/how-to-balance-your-pistons-and-connecting-rods-techtalk/?
@@hpa101 Thank you. So on the other end of the crank we have the flywheel which is significantly heavier than the harmonic balancer. How can such a small balancer compensate for the huge flywheel which itself is likely large enough to dampen the loads on the crank?
This is a great write-up that goes into more detail than we do for you on this topic. I'm certain it's going to answer more than a few questions for you: www.atiracing.com/products/dampers/damper_dinan.htm - Taz.
There's two aspects at play here. Often the material that the stock gears are made of is a genuine problem and they will have a known failure point. I can't speak about the Coyote gears from personal experience but that was the case with Nissan's RB26 - Rev a stock oil pump past 8000 rpm and it's going to fail regardless what damper you're running. On the other hand running no damper can result in premature failure of gears that would otherwise live a long and healthy life.
Is a humming sound during acceleration after lightweight crank pulley installation bad??? I just did it tomorrow and it feels good but I am getting a humming or vroom sound as rpms get higher
@@DL101ca yeah I don't think it was balanced at all and I put the Harmonic balancer back on cause that was a scary 2 days of driving.... Would you say fluid dampeners are worth it??
Ok then explain this example. Big block chevy engine , internal balance you can use a 7 inch or 8 inch balancer some with elastomer band abd 2 piece some solid. So with different weights of all these balancer how can engine still be balanced it is a Harmonic Balancer for harmonics not tornsional .
Yep super intelligent guys taking good s&@t love it guys! One of my favourite channels on UA-cam ❤️🙌 love my ATI dampener on my big hp Supra! Only the best is good enough ✅
Im wondering how many people have spent thousands and thousands on engine mods and haven't paid any attention to an aftermarket damper OR took off the stock one and fitted a solid one to save a few pounds
@@hpa101 probably cheaper to buy a quality damper than a solid " built from NASA grade never been on the moon grade material " . But hey that 3 pound saving along with a Titanium gear stick will definitely take a few 10th's off every lap 😂😂
I have an ls3 stroker that had powerbond balancer fitted Dont know why as i never asked for it Timing chain snapped after 10000km or so It redlines at 7000 They replaced it to an ati and rebuilt the motor again Shouldnt have ever had a powerbond balancer
Looking someone in the eye while talking is certainly better than looking at each others nips eh! It's probably just more uncommon to watch two people have a conversation that doesn't include so they're never looking your way too I guess - Taz.
Obviously. The crank is one solid piece, connection to the flywheel is solid with no damping so any crank vibration this dampener stops will also be affecting the gearbox.
@@RotorKartel Sure, the damper cancels out the vibrations caused by the pistons moving back and forth and the counterweights offsetting the back and forth of the opposing piston. These oscillations are what the damper is countering. A rotary engine has triangle shaped rotors that swirl for lack of better term around a figure 8 shaped chamber, all the motion is rotary movement as the rotors go through their motions it turns the crankshaft. No back and forth motion means no reciprocating movement to dampen.
We will! If you notice any other sub issues just let us know. We're releasing a lot more videos than normal so things have been a bit crazy getting it all sorted - Taz.
I think this is 1 product that is so exxagerated.... the effect this wld hve is very minimum ..... funny how people worry about damper n yet still install solid mounts. Now for a stock engine they may can match a balancing damper ..but for modify engine that varies I find it hard to believe that 1 balance is good for all. Internals built balance is key and way more important than external... Also majority of manufacturers don't use a damper ...especially in this time of precise technology.... simple put if theres nothing to balance then there's no need for a balance damper
Sold mounts have nothing to do with ensuring harmonics don't tear your engine apart, neither does how balanced your pistons are. You are mixing two different things up. This interview talks about harmonics in relation to where in the rev range they are for this application, where they had the ability to decide and I think it will clear up things for you here: www.hpacademy.com/blog/88kg-500hp-10500rpm-hayabusa-v8-radical-sportscars-rpe-v8-tech-talk/ I forget the time stamp they're at, but just watch it at 2x speed till you hear them start to talk about them. From there you should understand what harmonics are, why they're different for different engines, and the purpose of dampers like this - Taz.
I wonder how many people globally can explain all this mathematically, I bet not many. Maybe I’m wrong, maybe this is easy for a mechanical engineer but it seems seriously complex.
There is a short under 20 second clip from fluidampr that shows a side by side of stock vs fluid damper and your eyes can see the reduced wobble. Math simply models what happens in the real world, that’s called physics. For the layman your eyes see what the math resulted in.
Your engine in a focus doesn't have a keyway to line it up properly. All ATI dampers are press fit, your stock damper is held in position via friction washers and the average joe can't install even a stock damper on that engine because it needs to be timed to the crank when it is installed. Without a keyway to line it up, it would make the install too hard for the person to add this damper which is why ATI doesn't offer one for this engine, same for the Mazda MZR engines. I used to work for ATI and got requests for those engines all the time.
@@Rumnhammer but my engine does have a keyway in the pulley! I think you're confused with the regular focus with ford engines, mine is an ST with the 5cill engine from Volvo. Ford engines are without a keyway though, that's correct. But ati doesnt do a damper for the Volvo engines sadly enough
Contact them. Sometimes you have to get a group buy or 10 to 20 to get em made. I have a motor that's not supported, but they will make them in runs, and occasionally the one off.
@@blackcanyongarage Ahh ok yea i've contacted them and they said they didn't have anything for my engine but haven't told me anything about a groupbuy either. Ill look into it, thanks
![Why Do NASCAR Teams Use This Technology? | Calico DLC Coatings [TECH TALK]](/img/n.gif)
Are you running a harmonic damper? If not, why not?
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"Lets unpack that a bit..."
Love it
Best car channel on youtube, or TV for that matter.
Cheers for the high praise! - Taz.
'Oathmate
"Great questions thankyou". Must be nice to be interviewed by Andre. Lots of knowledge, interest and the ability to progress through the topic
As someone who has an ATI dampener at the machinists right now this was exactly the video I wanted to see from you
I love it when people know what they are talking about - and it shows.
If you saw this video, don't wait, buy yours now. It's an engine life saver! But a touch heavy on the clutch, change it's fluid to a DOT 4+ at the same time the fluid damper pulley gets installed. Critical mod 👌
These guys answered all the questions I would have asked. I'm sold.
The question I've been wondering. Thank you for the video
Glad you enjoyed it, cheers - Taz.
Thanks for addressing this, I can't stand it when people think that they don't have to run a damper because they had their rotating assembly balanced with their new billet crank pulley. There's a shop near me that pushes their custom crank pulley and I've seen a few different failures caused by it and it's never been good. The worst part is that they won't admit that their "balanced" pulley is the cause of the problems.
How You can be so sure, that the "balanced" pulley was the reason?
@@jareknowak8712 how can you be sure it's not? Why take a chance?
ATI tech explained brilliantly.
Appreciate the content! I don’t have a custom engine or anything special like that, but my harmonic damper was giving out on my SUV, and I wanted to learn more about the parts importance. Thank you :)
Glad to help! Cheers for the comment - Taz.
this guy is a great interviewer
When I see your Interviews i feel like there is no other person that could extract more knowledge from a short live interview than you. Hands down the most valueable car/tuning content on youtube. Greetings from germany:)
I was gonna get a lightweight pull for my wrx but was recommend a fluidamper
i have friends that are drag racers with 7 - 8 second quarter mile cars and i was told a story how this one car had a fluid dampener on it. the car sat for a long time...long enough for the fluid to solidify in one place in the dampener. once the cat was started, it destroyed the engine cause the balance was off like a brick in a washing machine. maybe fluid dampener has corrected this issue since then, but maybe you can research that. good luck💪
@@PANTYEATR1 Not sure what your friend was running, but it wasn't a Fluidamper , they have a solid metal ring, incased in the damper, with a very thin layer of Silicone in between, it's can't pool because there is no empty space in the damper, even if in somehow went solid which it won't, it would just act like a solid pulley. Banks Power just did a good video on it ua-cam.com/video/OEd6tFbc86o/v-deo.html&t=1320
@@taznz1 i could be confusing the fluid dampener with another brand that is actually filed with a fluid..which one could it be??? I'll text my friend and report back.
@@taznz1 my friend said it was a fluid dampener. maybe it was an earlier design?
I used a Fluidampr on a CTS-V1 with an 18lbs flywheel (compared to the 40+lbs stock dual-mass chonker) and I could feel the difference just going through the revs in neutral. Idle was smoother and less chatter when releasing the clutch.
Really interesting, I’d never heard about this consideration before
I finally understand what it Dore because that man explained it so well. Thanks for this information.
You're very welcome!
This is a FANTASTIC video. This guy is clearly well informed. Very helpful video.
Just got done rebuilding my 08 Jeep GC SRT to a 426 I came across this part and didn’t think too much but it saying it’s just an under drive pulley boy was I wrong I guess next paycheck I’ll be grabbing me one! This was great info!
Incredible questioning. Great interview. To the point and very valuable information. It sounded like a really good sports player interview only with car parts. Love it 😆🤘
The stock crank is designed with main journal overlap with the rod journals. The crank will have a characteristic harmonic. The stock damper is tuned for that harmonic. Stroker cranks, lightweight flywheels, lightweight pistons and rods all affect the harmonics. Vibrations affect oil pumps, distributor spark scatter, and the camshaft.
You will enjoy this, it discusses harmonics a little deeper from the perspective of an engineer deciding where they occur in the rev range, and how how: www.hpacademy.com/blog/88kg-500hp-10500rpm-hayabusa-v8-radical-sportscars-rpe-v8-tech-talk/ - Taz.
Wicked - put one on my RB26 @ 600hp. Thought it was a good idea after the last retune.
Great video as always! Would be awesome if you could do a deep dive on fluid-filled dampers, like Fluidampr or Innovators West. I had good luck with those on GM LS/LT(new) cars with light flywheels.
If then opportunity arises then we will do! For what it's worth we've used both styles of damper with success and couldn't pick a winner.
I put an ati on my 400rwkw barra motor, first start up i could tell it was running smoother. Need one for my 300zx single turbo 450rwkw motor now, it currently has a alloy lightweight crank pulley that was on motor when it got balanced after being built.
My 2004 Corvette Z06 CE needs a new harmonic balancer - an ATI is going on. 😎
another great video Andre and HPA team💪
How does this compare to the Fluidampr?
This^!
Fluidampr has a more broadband range of frequencies that it dampens. It's completely sealed and the damping media is a special silicone fluid which unless overheated somehow it essentially lasts for a lifetime. ATI can get away with lower overall mass I believe due to frequency tuning being easier to design as it is a standard relation of spring constant and mass of the inertia ring , where in the Fluidampr it is related to the mass of the inertia ring, fluid viscosity and shear area as well as the gap between the shear faces due to fluid flow dynamics. Personally i use a Fluidampr on my modified street car for years and absolute happy with it so far:)
@Nayr747 it's really two different approaches to achieving the same outcome. We've used both ATI and Fluidampr in the past and can't complain about the performance of either. We haven't got to a point where we have been in a position to compare the pros and cons of each style sorry.
@@hpa101 The ATI is often press fit which can be a pain in the ass when you're in a pinch. The Fluidampr is generally not press fit.
The ATI needs rebuilds every ten years minimum and this also implies the rubber will go bad at some point (like the oem 2jz pulleys). I don't like to repeat past sins hence going with a Fluidampr which doesn't need a rebuild.
ATI's are tuned for a narrower power range and the more you stray from the intended power the less it will dampen harmonics. The Fluidamprs don't have an advertised power range but I'm sure there's a limit where you would want to go custom. They're more adaptive to changes in power level.
I also seem to remember slightly different specs for the safety ratings but I'd have to go dig up my research to confirm.
This is all for 2jz pulleys. I talked with Fluidampr while I was researching the benefits of either brand. Good folks and they suggested ATI also makes good products - as long as they fit your build goals long term.
In small block applications, why don’t we see harmonic dampers integrated into the big cam gear like on the Cosworth DFX? This would allow the cam drive to maintain constant angular velocity even when harmonics are transferred through the crank.
beautiful interview as always andre!!
Great info, I just ordered one more my RB28 build!
Good video! I have a Fluidamper on my WRX (EJ205AVCS) swapped legacy and you could feel the difference.
Sweet! I just built a factory short block 255 with a few extras and I was wondering about things to help smooth out the power curve and provide some longevity.
@@zachscott4867 would consider this and cyl4 coolant mod
Equal length header as well
when you say you could feel the difference, what did you feel? I am looking at one for my car, which reading and watching this info would really benefit from one.
It’s a bit disappointing that ATI seems to lack interest in developing dampers for engines not in their current line up. I know several guys, including myself who have contacted ATI asking for a torsional damper for Volvo red block engines without even getting a response. Instead we’ve had to resort to adapting dampers meant for other engines for our builds.
It's a shame you haven't heard back at least. There must be a reason, or possibly an alternative out there - Taz.
Fluid harmonic balancer would be great if available
Fluidampr for the win!
fluidampr is easier to install than afi and works quite well.
Wow! Great video! I have an old 99 Citroen rally car that came with a damper from factory and here all take out it and replace with an lightwight aluminium pulley... Thanks! I never gonna replace this piece
When I read the title I thought it was going to be about that thing they put in the nose of that F1 Renault, could you do a vid on that? Even though this wasn't what I expecting, I feel I learnt a whole lot, thanks Andre and keep the good work, you always know your stuff and that really stands out, making your output so special! (Really liked that Mountune interview as well). NB just checked the Renault thing, it was a tuned mass damper, still I'm fascinated, I'd really like to see a video on them, apparently they ran them on the front & rear.
This video reassured my ati damper purchase for my ka24de was well worth the cost 🙏 appreciate the video man
lol
@@SR-fx5sm what scared of a big block sr that isn't taxed and makes more power with the same turbo and boost...... KA no Sr ya bitch 🤣
How much was it?
Having removed a dampers it becomes similar to the fourth cylinder not firing and the twist get worse and the crank train will fail quite quickly.
Whats the advantage of the ATI Damper over something like the fluidampr given the ATI requires servicing?
The ATI can be rebuilt as the elastimers are doing the damping where as fluid dampers cannot because they use fluid. I used to work for ATI. They make great products but the company is horrible to work for. I spent 2 years of hell as one of their employees.
Fluidampr has a more broadband range of frequencies that it dampens. It's completely sealed and the damping media is a special silicone fluid which unless overheated somehow it essentially lasts for a lifetime. ATI can get away with lower overall mass I believe due to frequency tuning being easier to design as it is a standard relation of spring constant and mass of the inertia ring , where in the Fluidampr it is related to the mass of the inertia ring, fluid viscosity and shear area as well as the gap between the shear faces due to fluid flow dynamics. Personally i use a Fluidampr on my modified street car for years and absolute happy with it so far:)
Balancing a crank with the balancer on is not a bad thing (except with a fluid one)... While balancing a crank it is at a static constant RPM (crank velocity is not changing) thus the balancer is not functioning thus not making a difference.
I just learned what a harmonic balancer is and what it does. I love it! Subed!
4:20
Could this be a reason for the oil pump failure problem on Nissan RB25's when revved to certain RPMs?
I wonder, could there be a dangerous resonant point in the standard pulley damper that nobody is aware of that the oil pump really doesn't like?
And when the revs are brought to and often held at that point, the oil pump soon $h!t$ itself?
Ignore me... Just thinking out loud... 😌
I should really *watch the whole video first* before I comment my thoughts, it will save me a whole lot more time, and I'll look a little less idiotic. 🤦🏼♂️
hahaha, you're all good! Being engaged and having questions as you go is all part of it, but Andre does try to round off as many loose ends as he can during interviews for you guys :) - Taz.
I love this bit of conversation here. THANK YOU HPACADEMY FOR YOUR CONTENT!!
Interesting! Good to know!
So what I'm getting from this is the engine will NOT idle any smoother but rather the damper will absorb torsional forces under heavy load?
Would you have one for the 1KR-DE engine?
This is a tiny 3 cyl engine in the Toyota Agya in Indonesia. I drive it hard in the mountains. The stock harmonic balancer can't handle the abuse. Please help! The little bugger shakes like a paint mixer in 1st gear.
How does a crankshaft bend hurt the alternator?
Do they have a damper that could fit a Barra, even with machining?
Hello I got the humming sound after installing crank shaft pulley in my Subaru FA20. Must put back stock crank shaft pulley?
What's the difference of an RB26 750HP Ati damper vs 1000HP Ati damper? I don't need 1000hp but its the only thing thats currently available, should I wait for 750hp. I'm not sure what the effect of the Underdrives and Overdrives
The underdrive/overdrive is achieved by the size difference of the pulley shells on ATI dampeners. Underdrive is beneficial to reduce parasitic losses from the engine by under driving the accessories (AC, power steering, alternator). Overdrives pulleys are beneficial to crank driven superchargers by increasing the supercharger RPM and therefore the max Psi output,albeit at the sacrifice of some HP from the crank.
So would you say if I have a regular summit pulley and swapped to a ATI would I gain power? I have a LS3 H/C/I made 536whp
Maybe I missed it but is there any reason why you wouldn't or shouldn't pick the lightest damper that ATI makes? Is it only heavier because of the size of the pulley for that particular engine?
i have a 2014 chevy silverado 5.3 1500 z71 LT stock. what ati is good for my LS that i can benefit from now and when i go to the next level. thnx
You always need one
For performance engine applications for sure, hope you enjoyed the video =) - Taz.
Rotary engines don't.
@@nzjdmsti Or maybe they would be more reliable if they did have a Hamonic Balancer.
I heard a lot of later model engines use the pulley to quieten ancillary belt noise but it's not actually a harmonic damper? Not sure about that
I need harmonic balancer for Toyota Camry 2ar Fe 2010
Yes but is a dampener needed for a built K20a motor revving to 9000rpm. Maybe 10000rpm+ or super high horse power. I’m trying to lighten the load so I can rev free as possible.
I’m asking because i was in the market of buying lightened pulleys and was going to buy a light crank pulley until I saw this.
Interesting.
Despite all the "institutional knowledge" available, controlling and damping vibrations and harmonics, especially over a broad range of loads and rpms is still, at best, an educated guess.
Perhaps someone could (should?) come up with an active and variable system, or do we just need to accept that the "shaking and shimmering" is just one of those unwanted limitations/side-effects of the reciprocating ICE?
Mac Cat
It's not so much part of combustion engines as it is part of certain layouts as they all have different harmonics and timing
@@getahanddown If you're inferring that there are some engines that do not suffer from some sort of vibration and harmonics, albeit less than some and over a narrow range and regardless of configuration, then I've missed something.
I'm always learning.
But if you're saying that "certain layouts" which may not necessarily be "combustion engines" have similar problems then I agree with you 100%. No argument.
@@-MacCat- Do you have formal engineering training?
@@acruzp Yes I do, but I've based my comments above as much from what I've learnt more from people that were completely unencumbered by tertiary qualifications and from >50 years of experience than what did from my years at university.
@@-MacCat- I agree with you. But I am sure you can figure out what are the important frequencies to battle are. @ 700$ each for my car. This is a crazy cash cow. I really feels like they are just simply trying to separate the load from the belts from the crank. Generally speaking on the clutch side, you have a sprung clutch.
How does this help with a lightened flywheel on a EJ engine lets just say. I see this having many benefits in high loads situations where aftermarket flywheels and clutches are being used which also acts as a counterweight on the crank.....
Whats the best approach for a v8 in a marine application as they often drive from the front of the crank?
Great knowledge
Difference between ATI vs Fluidampr? Wanna get one but can’t decide between the two
Fluidampr is way better!
How many of these dampers an engine needs? Just one or it need it in different places? I will l guess everywhere there is a pulley?Sorry for the stupid question.
For this purpose, just the one. This video explains a bit more about harmonics from an engine design stand point that might help you understand what is going on a little deeper too - Taz.
www.hpacademy.com/blog/88kg-500hp-10500rpm-hayabusa-v8-radical-sportscars-rpe-v8-tech-talk/
What I don't understand is... The only thing attached to my crank pulley is the rubber belt to the alternator. It was originally a harmonic/damper pulley on a Silvia SR20DET. But water pump now electric and air-con is removed. So, is the rubber belt and alternator really going to affect the need for a harmonic damper, or can I crack on with my ebay solid alloy pulley?
Another thought process i have... If i had a big enough charged battery to run the car and removed the alternator, belt and crank pulley, and somehow could compare how much different 'stress' on the crank there would be compared to with pulley/belt/alternator, is it really that much? I totally understand that 99% manufacturers use them but is it only really necessary when the crank pulley is running the air-conditioning, waterpump and alternator etc? Cheers! :)
Your auxiliaires are not the issue when it comes to harmonics, James from RPE covers the topic nicely here too, worth a watch: www.hpacademy.com/blog/88kg-500hp-10500rpm-hayabusa-v8-radical-sportscars-rpe-v8-tech-talk/ - Taz.
@@hpa101 ok thank you. So imagine if there was nothing to spin on a belt, no alternator, water pump etc. Does this mean that it would be even worse on crank to have zero crank pulley or a solid one? Hypothetical question, as I am definitely going to get an ATI or Ross one to make sure, much cheaper than engine rebuild... Thanks!
Im about to change my pulley to the lightweight one. Thanks for this video I will not change it lol
Amazing info!!!!
What’s the difference between overdrive and underdrive dampers?
I'm sure they are referring to different diameters in relation to over spinning or slower spinning in relation to the RPM of the standard damper and pulleys. You can slow down a belt speed for an alternator for example
@@FizzaMC thanks. which is better? Over drive or underdrive?
@@IsThatGeneralhonesty it's horses for courses. I need to run a larger underdriven pulley on my alternator for example on my LS1 because of the cam and higher than average revving it achieves. That was leading to early failure points for the overspeed on the alternator windings. Just a personal example of mine but only to do with the charging system but can affect things from water system, boost levels on a belt driven positive displacement power adder and other variables too. Hope it shines a bit of light on the topic for you. Smaller size pulley on a driven accessory from a uniform balancer pulley will spin the accessories faster or overdrive then, and vice versa to most applications
@@FizzaMC thank you
so how does the crank pulley dampen the torsion going into the oil pump and timing belt, when they are not connected to the crank via the dampened pulley, it stops the torsional vibrations going into the alternator and other crank pulley driven accessories. i would love to see an in depth analysts on how much vibration is in the timing gear and oil pump with and without a damper, because from my understanding, its only saving them accessories.
I want my motor back to normal performance condition. It’s limping and Idky. I press th gas’s pedal and my car hesitates in the heat like about 80degrees out and I’ve lost a lot of stock power and I feel like I’ve done a lot to my TRD Camry 2012 to help it not do that but what could I do or fix to get slot or normal power back restored?
Take the TRD stickers off and fill it up with low grade gas. Put your Uber sticker on the back window and go on about your business. It's a Camry pos, nothing sporty about it.
but can i find a harmonic damper to my engine? no only underpulley alu and stock...
I didn't understand if this is strictly for damping or for externally balancing. If this can also balance an engine, then how is the balancing done?
Your internal engine components are balanced separately, a damper does not do that for you or deal with imbalance, it is there to damper harmonic vibrations =)
We don't cover crank balancing, that is something 99% of people will get a professional with the applicable engineering equipment to do for them, but we cover piston and rod balancing which will help answer your other questions there I hope - Taz.
www.hpacademy.com/blog/how-to-balance-your-pistons-and-connecting-rods-techtalk/?
@@hpa101 Thank you. So on the other end of the crank we have the flywheel which is significantly heavier than the harmonic balancer. How can such a small balancer compensate for the huge flywheel which itself is likely large enough to dampen the loads on the crank?
This is a great write-up that goes into more detail than we do for you on this topic. I'm certain it's going to answer more than a few questions for you: www.atiracing.com/products/dampers/damper_dinan.htm - Taz.
So if we install a ATI dampener, we don’t have to install aftermarket oil pump gears for coyote?
There's two aspects at play here. Often the material that the stock gears are made of is a genuine problem and they will have a known failure point. I can't speak about the Coyote gears from personal experience but that was the case with Nissan's RB26 - Rev a stock oil pump past 8000 rpm and it's going to fail regardless what damper you're running. On the other hand running no damper can result in premature failure of gears that would otherwise live a long and healthy life.
The stock gears are made of glass in the coyotes, change them out for forged ones
Is a humming sound during acceleration after lightweight crank pulley installation bad??? I just did it tomorrow and it feels good but I am getting a humming or vroom sound as rpms get higher
Vary vary bad...it mean engine go brrr...too much brrr no good fo wallet.
@@DL101ca yeah I don't think it was balanced at all and I put the Harmonic balancer back on cause that was a scary 2 days of driving.... Would you say fluid dampeners are worth it??
Ok then explain this example. Big block chevy engine , internal balance you can use a 7 inch or 8 inch balancer some with elastomer band abd 2 piece some solid. So with different weights of all these balancer how can engine still be balanced it is a Harmonic Balancer for harmonics not tornsional .
I can’t believe how important this damper is to a boosted engine and how I missed it 😢
Yep super intelligent guys taking good s&@t love it guys! One of my favourite channels on UA-cam ❤️🙌 love my ATI dampener on my big hp Supra! Only the best is good enough ✅
it would be need to see a video about all the types of dampeners made for all purposes. from rocket ships to swivel-type office chairs.
I don't know if it would 'be need', but it would be great! - Taz.
Is he saying that timing will improve
Im wondering how many people have spent thousands and thousands on engine mods and haven't paid any attention to an aftermarket damper OR took off the stock one and fitted a solid one to save a few pounds
The answer is 'plenty', and some will end up paying dearly for the experience.
@@hpa101 probably cheaper to buy a quality damper than a solid " built from NASA grade never been on the moon grade material " .
But hey that 3 pound saving along with a Titanium gear stick will definitely take a few 10th's off every lap 😂😂
I have an ls3 stroker that had powerbond balancer fitted
Dont know why as i never asked for it
Timing chain snapped after 10000km or so
It redlines at 7000
They replaced it to an ati and rebuilt the motor again
Shouldnt have ever had a powerbond balancer
Could you do a Fluidampr Tech talk, if you get the opportunity?!
If the opportunity pops up, for sure - Taz.
I want to say locking eyes to a person is weird but like what else do you look at when you talk to them ?
Looking someone in the eye while talking is certainly better than looking at each others nips eh!
It's probably just more uncommon to watch two people have a conversation that doesn't include so they're never looking your way too I guess - Taz.
Wish they didn’t had an exclusive deal with VAC they charge triple for one. Keeping the BMW platform so expensive to build and tune.
Go check out the Ross Performance Parts, they have recently released a few BMW dampers.
Aaron Lloyd Media thank you. I just did they only have for the m54 motor and is different from the s50/s52
@@OmarE36M3Turbo odd. I am sure they had an S50 variant.
Aaron Lloyd Media I have triple checked their website. Thank you again my friend
great info!
Rubber or fluid; what about the so called solomon dampers, like the TCI rattler? Are those any good? Great video, as usual - keep it coming 👍
need a product for the 2.0-2.3 ecoboost line
does it help to stop vibration transfer to gearbox? as using solid flywheel low end gear noise is inevitable. any thoughts on this?
Obviously. The crank is one solid piece, connection to the flywheel is solid with no damping so any crank vibration this dampener stops will also be affecting the gearbox.
Should you run one on a rotary engine?
There is no need to, as there are no reciprocating parts.
@@Rumnhammer could you unpack that a bit please 😉
@@RotorKartel Sure, the damper cancels out the vibrations caused by the pistons moving back and forth and the counterweights offsetting the back and forth of the opposing piston. These oscillations are what the damper is countering. A rotary engine has triangle shaped rotors that swirl for lack of better term around a figure 8 shaped chamber, all the motion is rotary movement as the rotors go through their motions it turns the crankshaft. No back and forth motion means no reciprocating movement to dampen.
ATI is better in my opinion especially for engines go into higher rpms 💪🏾
My man didn’t break eye contact
He's in the zone 😎 - Taz.
So the crank on my SR20 at 20lbs and 8,000rpm moves like a spaghetti?
Are you guys stopping the subtitles?
Hmm, odd, they should be there now. Thanks for mentioning that! - Taz.
@@hpa101 I appreciate it! Keep it up for us poor ones stuck at home
We will! If you notice any other sub issues just let us know. We're releasing a lot more videos than normal so things have been a bit crazy getting it all sorted - Taz.
Built my Jseries. They don't offer one so just went with the basic oem. 🤷♂️. Great video nevertheless
yeah, that's a bit sad, was looking for one too
Torgional that drove me crazy.
Such an important part mostly ignored. Ask great questions, get great answers.
You're new parts werent made for the OE weight.
I suspect you may be confusing balance with damping torsional vibration here.
I think this is 1 product that is so exxagerated.... the effect this wld hve is very minimum ..... funny how people worry about damper n yet still install solid mounts.
Now for a stock engine they may can match a balancing damper ..but for modify engine that varies I find it hard to believe that 1 balance is good for all.
Internals built balance is key and way more important than external...
Also majority of manufacturers don't use a damper ...especially in this time of precise technology.... simple put if theres nothing to balance then there's no need for a balance damper
Sold mounts have nothing to do with ensuring harmonics don't tear your engine apart, neither does how balanced your pistons are. You are mixing two different things up.
This interview talks about harmonics in relation to where in the rev range they are for this application, where they had the ability to decide and I think it will clear up things for you here: www.hpacademy.com/blog/88kg-500hp-10500rpm-hayabusa-v8-radical-sportscars-rpe-v8-tech-talk/
I forget the time stamp they're at, but just watch it at 2x speed till you hear them start to talk about them. From there you should understand what harmonics are, why they're different for different engines, and the purpose of dampers like this - Taz.
Damn, my car doesn't have a damper from factory. Now I'm worried about mods D:
Some engines are equipped with balance shafts.
Fluidampr has entered the chat
I wonder how many people globally can explain all this mathematically, I bet not many. Maybe I’m wrong, maybe this is easy for a mechanical engineer but it seems seriously complex.
hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/shm2.html
There is a short under 20 second clip from fluidampr that shows a side by side of stock vs fluid damper and your eyes can see the reduced wobble. Math simply models what happens in the real world, that’s called physics. For the layman your eyes see what the math resulted in.
Rubber dampers are doomed, fluid dampers work forever and across all rpm range. Rubber is bad in this case
Sad to see they don't have a damper for my engine :(
Your engine in a focus doesn't have a keyway to line it up properly. All ATI dampers are press fit, your stock damper is held in position via friction washers and the average joe can't install even a stock damper on that engine because it needs to be timed to the crank when it is installed. Without a keyway to line it up, it would make the install too hard for the person to add this damper which is why ATI doesn't offer one for this engine, same for the Mazda MZR engines. I used to work for ATI and got requests for those engines all the time.
Interesting info there Rumnhammer, cheers for sharing - Taz.
@@Rumnhammer but my engine does have a keyway in the pulley! I think you're confused with the regular focus with ford engines, mine is an ST with the 5cill engine from Volvo. Ford engines are without a keyway though, that's correct. But ati doesnt do a damper for the Volvo engines sadly enough
Contact them. Sometimes you have to get a group buy or 10 to 20 to get em made. I have a motor that's not supported, but they will make them in runs, and occasionally the one off.
@@blackcanyongarage Ahh ok yea i've contacted them and they said they didn't have anything for my engine but haven't told me anything about a groupbuy either. Ill look into it, thanks