Harmonic Dampers And Balancers - What they do, Differences, What To Look Out For, When To Upgrade
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- Опубліковано 13 бер 2023
- Harmonic Dampers and Balancers are parts that get very little attention but are universal to all of the common engines we deal with. Here's a basic rundown of how they work, what can go wrong with them and knowing when an upgrade to an aftermarket piece is required.
#engines #classiccar #musclecar
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I recently put a Fluidamper on my 24V Cummins 5.9. The stock one was still perfect, but had read good things about Fluidamper. What a world of difference! Idle and high RPM smoothed out, and clutch chatter (especially reverse) was just gone! I wish I had put this in years ago!
I've just bought one, waiting delivery......looking forward to this result!
@@craigbarrett2278if you have the Horton electromagnetic fan clutch, as I do, you will have to remove it first. The wide paddles on the blade don't give you enough clearance to get the Fluidamper into place. Good luck! I'm (still) in the People's Democratik Republik of Kommiefornia, so no road salt/etc. The original balancer came right off... hope you're as lucky!
@Silver Hornet Ls L98 so electric fans. But thanks. 😊
Did you have to have engine balanced after that ?
@@piotrprobala4808 No... just install and go!
Great video Tony! Can you maybe cover the mystery of drivetrain vibrations? U-joints, differentials, mounts, etc? Thanks for all you do!
Tom Woods (IIRC) has a great video about driveline angles.
Every driveline mystery is different.
When I tore down my 289 I was dumb and didnt know the damper was just pressed together, used a gear puller on it, you know how that goes 😭
LOL that's funny I could see it happening that's why they have the inner slots have a great day
what happened?
@@morphius747 Rubber couldnt grip the inertia ring well enough so it started separating from the rest of the balancer. No good at that point so now i have a intertia ring and diy nitro ready balancer.. lol
Well... back in the 80s we did not have the internet and all of these videos... all we had was Chiltons and friends who probably knew what to do in MOST cases. yes its funny to see these videos and think back to some of the things we did. if you did not have the money for a Harmonic Balancer/ steering wheel puller then you were just like the rest of us. I have learned so much from Uncle Tony's videos that I really wish I had known way back when.
@@allurared9029 hmm thanks for letting me know! I have a 96 Tacoma with a 2rz engine that has had the same balancer since it left the factory. when I replace the oil pump seal and front crank seal should I replace the balancer with an OEM or not? I'd like OEM but the cost of OEM toyota can be high. I havent had issues with the balancer but why wait?
On mopars, I've run into more dampers where the outer ring has walked than not. Even on ones where the rubber seemed okay. I no longer mess with factory units on a fresh build anymore.
Tony, I'd like to see you follow this up with discussion of balancing torque converters. I remember back in the day when dinosaurs roamed the earth, some guys using smaller 6 cyl torque converters for higher stall speed, and rebalancing. I never understood the voodoo on all this. Also, B&M used to make a flex plate with weights so that you could run the 360 externally balanced engine with torque converter for a 318 or 340 internally balanced. That part is no longer made, from what I understand. Any insight into all this would be appreciated.
I would like to see a video about engine cooling systems. Radiator size, air flow, heat cores ect..
And steam vents, internal and external.
I never gave a second thought about these. Granted i never build a engine past stock either. Thanks so much for the fountain of knowledge. Now I know more for the future.
My harmonic balancer went out on my Subaru put a new one on it pretty easy fix love the Chevy and Mopar knowledge old school tool thank you 💪
Thanks for this one! Always learn something useful... I had one fail on a slant six, too, but it never flew off, it just started throwing the belt. Cheers from Canada!
I've been considering replacing the damper on my 56 Ford. As far as I can tell it's still original and I've been warned about the damper separating as you said and becoming a deadly weapon of destruction. It still lines up perfectly when I check the timing marks, but it's in the back of my mind whenever I take it out for a ride.
That ,and if it's the rubber style between the halves the rubber gets hard as a rock and there goes it's "tuning".
For the little bit of money and time it’s a worthwhile bit of maintenance
I had a dampener come apart on my driveshaft in an 02 S10. Ended up just hacking it off instead of dropping the shaft. You could actually feel a difference in acceleration in that extremely under powered 2.2L after removing that big hunk of iron
I had the whole damper fly off a 64 Chev 327, that was before they added the center bolt. And I also worked on a 86 IROC Camaro 305, where the inertia ring slid backwards a sawed a hole right thru the timing chain cover. Fun stuff.
I've seen the inertia ring slip on modern cars as well, including a late model BMW. Easy way to tell if the inertia ring has slipped. Just look at the key-way, is should line up with the TDC notch.
Can you make a video on an overview of radiators? Comparisons, pros and cons, brass, aluminum etc. I’m very curious on what your thoughts are
I had a 97 Ford triton 5.4 that slung the inertia ring off the damper going 70mph on the interstate. Funny thing is it didn't do any damage at all and the only reason I knew something was wrong is because the alternator quit charging when it slung the belt off. I didn't even realize the inertia ring was missing till I went to put the belt back on and noticed it was waaaay too lose
I worked on a triton that did that.
But the belt didn’t even come off.
The belt cut grooves in the rubber on the hub that was left.
It ran and drove fine just had a random belt squeal.
Took awhile to figure out!
Mainly I found the outer ring in the engine bay😂
I thought I knew at least a little bit about dampers, until I watched that video. Another huge score, Tony! Thanks.
I have Grumpy Jenkins book. He described a method of putting screws through the inertia ring to keep from flying off
Of course that was serious horsepower/ RPM.
Threw the ring of my Jeep 4.0, luckily I was idling in the supermarket carpark so no damage.
Good video! Simple stuff that no one thinks about unless something goes wrong with it. The only time I really think about it is when I'm setting timing. It can happen on newer stuff too, I saw one fail on a Ford Fusion one time.
I needed a crank for my 383. I was told 400 crank would work. And it did except for bad vibration. I finally figured out that the 383 was internally ballenced and the 400 was externaly ballenced. So installed 400 balancer and 400 torque converter. No more vibration .
Hey just wanted to say, this is the most important video I've seen from you in a while. This is very important to engine timing. In order to get that extra HP out. Out of your car always start with the timing, provided everything else is good. I've advanced the timing on American V8's for years. Nothing but happy customers.
Video suggestion: gear head nerd video on the flywheel. Although it seems simple, much like the harmonic dampener, it has some interesting science to it 🤗
Tony, great video. Thanks! I have been a shade tree mechanic since I was a kid so I feel like I know what I'm doing most of the time. However, every time I watch your videos, I always seem to learn something new. Thanks for sharing your unique knowledge, brother! Chuck
Had the one on my 3.9L dakota start coming apart. Checking timing i saw it wasn't right so I replaced it. My 79 camaro had the inertia ring back off and start eating the timing cover. My 85 d150 will get a new one when I go in to do a timing set and refresh. Very good info as always 👍
Good video; didn't know the difference; and now i do; thanks !!!! Always something new to learn thanks to videos like this !!!!!!
When my father and I switched out the 302 for a 351 Windsor in his 83 F 100 Ford truck we had two problems to deal with when initially trying to start it. 1st, was the firing order is different 2, was the timing marks on the harmonic balancer was wildly off, no doubt due to being shifted. We ended up findings top dead Center with a dowel .
Good to know that they can fly apart!
thanks, such a great and detailed video, as they say you learn something new everyday! ...keep em coming Uncle Tony
Wow so much good stuff i didnt know i planned on taking most of the accessories off my square body and i never in a million years come up with needing a after market balancer/ dampner. Thanks forbthe knowledge and the headache saver
I had one repaired, for a 66 Pontiac 389 engine. It cost $130. Company called “damper dudes” in CA. Good video Uncle Tony!
I had to do the same with my’62 389 as here in Australia new ones are not available, ‘66 onwards are on the shelf but are obviously different.
Would have never thought there would be a business that rebuilds balancers.
Would have never thought there would be a business that rebuilds balancers.
@@robertwest3093 yes. Turnaround time 3 days. Came back nicely painted too.
Really good work.
@@robertwest3093 it stems from having small numbers of many makes and models of cars imported into Australia so parts inventory is often zero to limited at best. Added to that our Pontiacs came from Canada so had Chev mechanicals.
Excellent work good communication skills I learned a few things from this video I'm just a mild backyard mechanic.
On my 80 z28 I had in high school I kept hearing a scraping sound....it was the inertia ring scraping the timing cover!!!
Great stuff again Tony
Always found it interesting that a water-cooled mk1/2 vw had no balancer with AC, but if AC equipped they had em.
another one that comes apart quite alot is the 3800 gm v6
As a kid I swapped a 327 into my dad's 64 Chevy two ton truck. (swapped several into that because the 327 was a horrible big truck engine) Anyway this motor was a backwoods buy, a runner. Noticed they put the damper on with a sledge hammer, didn't think it'd hurt.
So the old man wants a Quadrojet and I'm getting the linkage right, and of course because 14-15 you test it by revving the crap out of it! So I'm in the cab revving it and BAM! Outer ring came apart and I was just laying over it revving the damned thing a minute before. Oh yeah a chunk of that would go right through a human body.
I saw a Nascar team, and they had the type of Damper that has all the O-rings inside it - and they would actually take it apart and tune the amount of rings inside while on the Dyno for each engine.
That's a really good explanation. Thanks from Australia.
Cool! I had wondered what a harmonic balancer did and how it did it. Thanks! 😀
Great knowledge thank you!
The one reason to use a factory dampner/balancer is reciprocating mass, if HP and revs are your concern, this is a key element.
Had a balencer on my amc 360 start to seperate.. the rubber was pulling out. I used rtv on it to hold it in while i got a new one. New one works great.
My 98 4.0 Grand Cherokee after about 280k miles needed a new balencer. The engine made weird noises in the cabin.. looked at the balencer and it was wobbling.
New one in and it sounded like normal again. Engine now has 400k miles
Yep same thing with my 4.0 Cherokee. Started wobbling at 150k miles. Has almost 200 on it now..
@@DanimalZ32 did you replace it ?
@@jeepsblackpowderandlights4305 Yeah I had to immediately. It kept throwing the belt off. Had to stop multiple times on my way home from work to put it back on just so I could get it home.
Two years ago the ring became loose at 65,000 miles in my 2006 Mustang with a 4.0, taking out the crank position sensor in the process. While looking for a new damper, I found out that a 2010 Mazda B4000 pickup with the same engine also had the same interchange part number and was exactly the same. This was true for other models of the era as as well, like Ranger, Explorer, E-150, E-250 and more. It was cheaper too so I installed it. Never had an issue since but I keep an eye on it.
Tony there is a company called the damper doctor that can repair the damper based in California.I had one made for a iron duke that just had a pulley
You need to go look in your archives, where you showed everyone how to start your engine 32 degrees total timing, the distributor video, yes that one. God bless you and your family.
Hey unc Tony...funny you bring up balancers .... especially 4.0 jeep just had a failure on mine,your correct. Mine had a oiling problem due to the crank seal.All happy now new seal & balanced TA DA!
OK I subscribed to your channel. Keep up the usefull information. Oh BTW I've discovered Rochester carburetors are the cat,s meow.
Man I love Uncle Tony HOWEVER I just wish he was die hard Chevy guy!
Had one come apart on a 318 in a late 70s Ram charger. Luckily the alternator belt held it on there. Beat the crap out of the front cover though!
How about a video on torque converters?!?!
Tony, You hit your head on the nail when you talked about the affects of accesories driven off the front of the crankshaft. They add rotational inertia that helpd damp out the rotational pulses in the crankshaft. The rotational inertia of the accesory drive system doesn't compare with the rotational inertia at the back end of the crankshaft, provided by the flywheel and clutch cover is you have an Amish transmission or the torqueconverter if you have a slushbox. The front of the crank needs additional rotational inertia, or the crankshaft will fatigue from winding and unwinding due to the torsional pulses from the connecting rod forces on the crank pins. The harmonic damper reduces the torsional "Ringing" of the crankshaft, which reduces stresses in the crankshaft, preventing fatigue fracture of the crank. If your harmonic damper fails, it's less expensive, but not as much fun, to replace it with another harmonic damper instead of a belt-driven 8-71 blower.
Good stuff UT!
Tony, great video as per usual. Thank you for sharing all the info over the years. One question for you though. Side bar first. I have 2 Oldsmobile 303 V8 engines that I am using for a project car. Both engines are identical in their basic form. Both are 303 based, Rochester 4 barrel blocks. Both have generators, block mounted water pumps, and same cast iron exhaust manifolds. One engine is out of a '52 Olds, matted to a hydramatic auto trans. The other engine is out of a '53 and had a 3 speed manual backing it up. The '52 engine has a bare crank pulley while the '53 has a balancer mounted to the crank pulley. The '52 engine spins and should run with a little TLC. I did already drop the pan and the internals looked good. The cylinder walls looked good as well. The '53 block is seized though and the cylinder walls are in very poor condition. Now, I would like to use the manual transmission off of the '53 engine and mate it to the hopefully good '52. My question for you is: Would I need to take the balancer with the crank and any or all of the other internals as well as flex plate off of the '53 block and put them on the '52 block in order to get this to work? Or would just changing out the flex plate from the automatic to the manual flexplate be sufficient enough? I do have a few Oldsmobile shop manuals for these year cars, and as far as I can tell, they did not mention anything about needing to switch over the harmonic balancers with the crank and internals as well as the flex plates. Thank you again for all of your time and shared wisdom Tony.
I bought an old corvette. Very stock/original with a smooth running original engine. Despite there being no sign of the damper being bad I went and replaced it anyways. I figured after 50 years it was time for it to retire.
Seems that the LS engines in later year vettes have issues with their balancers. I’ve met a bunch of C5 vette owners who said their inertia ring had moved enough to start rubbing against the water pump cover.
Thanks Tony
The part about designing in the accessory drives helps reinforce a thought I had about a 330 Olds engine I had which had no damper at all (just a counterweighted hub) and relied on the accessories to do the dampening.
Ford 2.3 sohc lima engine is the same, it had a big metal hub lol...
Yes, thank you
Hello man, how are you?? Firstly, I need to tell you that I have always liked your channel and all the topics you post. I'm from Brazil and I started working with Dodges since I was 14 years old. You always post content with great technical topics and always remind me of my youth when I was learning about Dodges. CONGRATULATIONS FOR ALL THE CONTENT YOU POST and know that I am learning a lot more and more from you!! Hug !! I hope that one day I can meet him in person. God bless you!!
Great video! Simple and basic stuff, but very important and overlooked too often.
Loose spinning metal can rub a hole in the front plate where your timing is. Seen an oil leak from such wear
Another insightful educational video. Thanks UT. Keep em coming buddy.
Good job Tony and thanks, but you forgot to cover the sizes with a tape measure. The reason I was watching your video and searching the Internet is I have a 76 Corvette street and show only. I am in the process of upgrading the 350 engine with 750 Holley double pumper with 2 inch aluminum spacer. An Eldelbrock Performer, a Roller Cam with around 2200 to 5900 RPM, with linked Roller Lifters and Aluminum roller Valve rockers and a 10 inch 2700 to 3000 stall converter from Assault and Flotek 180cc/64cc aluminum heads.
I am halfway through the project now but this balancer thing I have, came up again including timing questions. I Purchased the 8 inch on Amazon from Professional Balancers who says it is for a 76 Corvette. I was told by Google searches that doing so would be a benefit to install an 8 inch with an after market Harmonic Balancer like Professional Products (80002) 8" Harmonic Damper for 350 SB Chevy because of the aftermarket changes I am making. The OEM is a 6 3/4 balancer. Any thoughts on that.
Good tips
This is perfect timing just replaced one on my jeep.
Excellent
Definitely didn't know that keep it coming taking notes 👀👀 🍿🍿
Grandpa had the d310 in the 756 rebuilt in the 80s. They fired it up and anything over idle, it had a bad vibration and the front tires of the tractor started bouncing on the shop floor.
The mechanic's helper had dropped the damper pulley. The impact ruined it.
Awesome!
BRILLIANT!
Good information what about different size dampers
My 429 in my thunderbird has the damper integrated into the crank pulleys
I'm surprised there's no mention of the clicky clacky 3800 dampers of the 80s and 90s
Been there!
Uncle, how much you can mill a pair of 360 heads before having issues with aligment on intake and block? Mexi 360s has 8.0 cr!
Tony,you need to define the difference between Internally and Externally balanced crankshafts.
Great explanation Tony. Can we get a follow up video on how to set up an aftermarket damper to match an aftermarket rotating assembly?
probobly see what your crank manufacturer recommends.
@@yurimodin7333 Might be aftermarket pistons and rods on a factory forged crank.
I thought about going to a clutch for my 304 but the externally balanced flywheel wasn't a easy thing to find. I still might if I get a 360 crank.
The " Harmonic " part aint needed after installing the GM 6-71 blower . Solid hub drive .👍
Hmmm difference between internal and external balancing i.e. 360 vs lower c.i displacement?... Thanks!...
Only thing to add is fitment, and that varies. Maybe 0.0015" interference [damper vs snout] is not a bad rule of thumb for something of unknown origin?
Thanks for the video. How do you know which balancer you need when some internal pieces of the engine have been changed?🤔
I saw one come off once out of a 70 Chevy 454 at the 1/8 mi line. it beat the car to the turn off and was still spinning when the guy got out and put his foot on it to stop it. He said it destroyed his engine. I saw another come off a mustang, it bounced twice and left the property, headed south.
My brother had a mitata with a bad valve cover gasket, leaked oil all over the front of the engine. Had his damper/pulley fly apart from that oil soaking. Chewed into the timing cover when it was walking around before it flew off. When it flew off it pressed into the rad fins, caused a slow pressure leak in rad, eventually had to replace it. Thankfully I was able to find a replacement timing cover, and replaced it when I did the timing belt & water pump. Should've just fixed that valve cover leak when it first started...
My British cars never came w/ balancers. Just a plain V-groove pulley. Those little engines were internally balanced and didn't require one. Now, only if the rest of the car was built with care...!
Is there a way to tell off of the damper/balancer if I have a true 451 or a regular 400 bb.
Even on the Big block Chrysler 361 I have has the stock dampener.
But I imagine the dampener will create quite a racket when it gets loose.
As the accessory drive 4 belt pulley is in the way of the dampener from "coming off" so essentially trapping the outer ring.
I'd think that the outer ring will be pummeling everything in it's vicinity. If It does come loose!
On big block Chrysler stock dampeners pre-1964.
To inspect the health of the dampener, the 0* degree mark on the weighted outer ring should be about 90* apart from the crank indexing stub.
Damper Dudes can re-vulcanize your old dampers.
I've got a ford 361 truck engine. I put a 391 flywheel on it that had weights on it and I put a crankshaft pulley from a 330 truck engine. Seems ok so far...hope so.
Uncle Tony killing it again!
Can you do water pumps or distributors
I enjoy your content Tony. I have a question for you. I have an 82 dodge 1/2 ton with a 318 2bbl 2wd, it's my garbage truck for the shop. The transmission had a bad leak and ended up burnt out. I bought a nice recent professionally built 727, but it is from a 360 1982 vintage. I noticed the huge weight on the torque converter but had no incling about internal and external balance. Hence the engine has quite a nasty vibration now. The question is, can I remove that huge weight on the converter to fix it or can I possibly just use the balancer from a 360? Thank you Tory
Well said ,brother. Great information on something that is overlooked.
Ok Unk, how about talking about engine balancing. I'm just a "take it to my engine guy" but I don't really know what he does -- or how to know if he's done it right.
Reminded me of the day I attempted to remove my damper using a 3-jaw puller. LOL
When you have an external la 360 is a liquid filled damper good to use?
Great explanation! I learned a lot! Thanks!
6:50 don't tell me if wouldn't be fun to see that thing blow apart though.
I think some kinda fixture that spins to like 25k needs to be built for that purpose.
My damper looks okay at a glance. But I think I'm gonna scribe a line on it to see if it slips. I'm gonna be taking the front of the engine apart as soon as I can. So I should know if I need a new one by then. Especially the way I drive 😅
I had a stock damper go bad, wasn't obvious but when I went to check my timing one day when the engine ran poorly.. any way new damper fixed all
I would like to see fluid dampers And other after market dampers explained just saying othere
Than that great video. Oh tear down a flat head Moter you should see the ones in World War Two dodge army trucks
Uncle Tony years ago I had a 1964 Chevy c10 6cys and it went bad so I bought a 400 small block out of a Montecarlo I think and put it in my C10 with a 3 speed transmission. It ran great but it had a terrible vibration that I never got out. I found out years later that it was an externally balanced motor. Back then I had the flywheel balanced and change the balancer on front but nothing would fix it. What do you think I could have done. Sold it like that
Had a '65 Corvair, a fantastic car that I could NOT keep in time. Fortunately I figured out the timing mark on the harmonic balancer was slipping before any damage was done or an unneeded major rebuild was triggered.
Does torque or HP "Camshafts" are factors or only the High RPM limit for the factory used Damper and Balancer. Some engine with huge cams runs very rough from big Lobe !!! And have rave limiter.
One thing i can say to this is...
If Uncle Tony uses the "Aftermarket" word so many times. It must be crucial to these applications. I learned that anyway ! Hehe