Michael Heiser on (Misrepresented) Calvinism
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- Опубліковано 27 сер 2024
- Michael Heiser demonstrates he has not done even the most basic reading in Reformed theology
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The gap between God-centered theology and man-centered philosophy is a wide as the gulf between Heaven and Hell.
I'd say it's a little farther then that, the gap is probably 10 feet by 8 feet distance shaped like this T.
Yes, Calvinism is a man made theology
@@Solideogloria00 -- Why would sinful man create a God-centered, God-glorifying theology? Man-made theologies glorify man.
The illustration we get from scripture concerning the Kingdom of God is that of a city on a hill. It is light. Transparent, morally good, and visible. It's the shining glorious thing that is exceptional. What God has done is slap down a giant holy lifeboat, plain for all to see. You either come, or you don't. God has sent evangelists to spread the good news of this light coming into the world. He does not arbitrarily pluck men from the darkness, he passionately labors after mens' hearts. No one is special because everyone is special. God loves and desires that all would repent. Not all will. When seen from the end, those who will come are predestined, foreknown, and the like. This doesn't eliminate any responsibility on your part, nor does it yield you credit for anything. Your repentance and belief are nothing apart from Jesus Christ. If you are granted salvation, it is neither arbitrary, nor is it deserved. Neither Calvinists nor their objectors understand this. Orthodoxy does though.
@@Solideogloria00preach brother!
It is not the most intelligent among us that understand and believe the Gospel, it's only those who have been born again. A natural man can only choose a false god for himself, no matter what he names his god.
God gave us a brain to think and the ability to make decisions!! This is a fact, whether calvinists believe it or not! God will make YOU responsible for YOUR decisions, not HIMSELF.
what exactly is the Gospel (Good News) of calvinism? you have a god who sacrificed his son for nothing, because your god already predetermined who will be saved and nothing could change that, his own son sacrificed or not. you have a god who created vast majority of humanity with absolute intent to destroy them in hell without offering them any mercy and grace and way out. the simplest person has enough intelligence to see calvinism teaches a different gospel and another jesus, and it's outright evil.
@leroybroun4106 Jesus is God come in flesh, He died to save HIS PEOPLE from their sin, rose again on the 3rd day and all who repent and believe have eternal life.
@@CBALLEN He died for the sins of the whole world (John 1:29, 3:16, 1John 2:2). everything else you said is what Christians believe, but it is not what calvinists believe and preach. calvinists believe they were predestined before the creation of the world, therefore before Jesus, and nothing can change that sovereign will of god. jesus is just some technicality required by their god, but cannot affect that sovereignty. what exactly is the Good News of calvinism? that god hates the majority of humanity that he created and will offer them no love, mercy, or grace?
@@leroybroun4106does God know everything that’s going to happen in the future?
You should start putting links to the full dividing line from where you get the "highlight".
Just in case people may want to go watch the whole thing.
^This. People, thumb this up so the guy running the channel can see it.
And vice versa
From the episodes of Dividing Line I've watched he covers three or so topics per show. Highlights episodes contain everything he said about the chosen topic from that particular show. I could be wrong but that's been my experience.
12:05 Huh??? Dr. White... you have me officially confused.
If regeneration is not defined as the enablement to believe (as MH is claiming Calvinists say), why do you go on to explain a chain of events, starting with regeneration, that eventually results in a person believing as a result of being thusly created anew in Christ?
It sounds like you try to refute MH by accidentally confirming his point. Lol
That has been my struggle with Heiser all along. He dismisses everything from the Church Fathers all the way up to the Reformation. He believes we can only understand the New Testament through Second Temple Judaism and Ancient Near Eastern Culture.
because that's when it was written. Non Jews make more attempt to understand the culture behind those books, dont get me wrong, I not asking you to convert. To Judaism, but you have to understand the 1 century, 2nd temple context. To understand those areas. John Calvin was very intelligent, but he does not have centuries of research on his hands like we do.
Yes and Star Trek
@@regularstan6212 I actually have modified my view since my comment a year ago. You are right on the money. Thanks.
And rightly so. If it wasn't for the reformation Christianity would have died in its infancy.
The Church has mixed Christian doctrines with hellenistic cults and garbage (such as Calvinism) as much as the Jews used to mix real Judaism with the religions of Baal in the OT.
wow you don't see that kind of post often. @@provocationofgrace
How is he misrepresenting calvinism if these are defined terms in calvinist writings?? 😅
Calvinists are never consistent
Heiser doesn’t start with fourth century Augustinianism he starts with the Bible
And that is why he doesn’t arrive at the heresy of Calvinism
Why is it that it's always one side of this debate that calls the other heretics? Neither side is heretical. We both believe that salvation is by grace through faith in Christ and that anyone who puts their faith in Christ is saved. It's clear that one side wants to throw around the word 'heresy' due to their own lack of study and lack of spiritual maturity. It's rarely a Calvinist that calls the other side a heretic.
its so frustrating listening to people trying to refute Reform Theology who only have a second-hand, straw-man understanding of it.
I have tried for years to understand Calvinist teachings relating to soteriology and it has so many twists and bends along the route and a selective emphasis on certain scriptures that I just can't say I'm on board.
@@ILuvJazzNJava
Actually, that's anything but true… Predestined, chosen before the foundation of the world, elect, according to the foreknowledge of God.... these are all terms the Bible uses, the twisting and bends, and the so-called selective emphasis on certain scriptures is actually what those who do not accept this teaching try to do… Calvinist will always let the Bible speak for itself.... it means what it says, it says what it means.
@@MateoManolo-sl6xp except when it’s inconvenient, then certain Scriptures get ignored or downplayed.
@@ILuvJazzNJava
I can say the same thing
"will always let the Bible speak for itself"
What every cult says
Heiser may not know much reformed theology, but he DOES know how the ancient Israelites, the Second Temple Jews, the apostles, and Jesus himself would have thought about election. And none of them knew of an entire disciplinary field of study called "Reformed Theology."
You're correct on the latter but I would wager to say he know all about reformed theology and didn't waste his time on it. Its a rabbit trail.
If the 12 were Galileans and Galilee was part of Israel not Judah/Judea then in what way were they Jews/Judeans G2453? Also, Paul the Benjamite for example?
Paul(an apostle) speaking of the Israelites (from 2nd temple judaism in Romans 10: 2 For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. 3 For not knowing about God’s righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.
"but he DOES know how the ancient Israelites, the Second Temple Jews, the apostles, and Jesus himself would have thought about election."
No. He knew what he THINKS they would have thought about it.
And he was also an expert at building straw men and destroying them, as can be seen in this video.
He probably knew a lot about Old Testament election, but as demonstrated the last 2 minutes of the video, he knows very little about the new covenant, which is directly tied to election.
Also, obviously Jesus and the NT characters knew nothing about reformed theology because the reformation took place in the 1500s lol but the concept and teachings of the reformed theology is found in scripture, even if the field of study came 1500 years later…
A born again man cannot become unborn again,no more than those who have been naturally born,ever be unborn, both births are a gift of God that can't be rejected or changed.
Ok, then why does Colossian 1:23 say that we are reconciled to God "if you continue in your faith." Seems like there needs to be an ongoing faith here, or the reconciliation is lost. I have yet to hear an adequate explanation of this from the "once saved, always saved" people.
@Ben Jones thanks for the response, but it feels like you are reading an idea into the Colossians verse that isn’t really there. The verse contains a small, but very important word - “if”. And this word seems to make the continuance of salvation conditional based on a person choosing to continue in their faith and not abandon it. The Colossians verse isn’t the only one with this idea. For example consider 1 Corinthians 15:1-2 (ESV):
15 Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, 2 and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you
Again, it seems to me that continuance in belief or faith is required. I also don’t think it makes sense to say that it solely God who will make us continue in faith, because then God would be to blame for those who don’t continue in faith.
@Ben Jones still doesn’t seem to address the “if” condition being presented in these verses. It doesn’t say “will”, it says “if”. Why would it say “if” when there is no uncertainty in the outcome? It’s interesting you raise the parable of the sower. That’s another passage implying that faith just continue for salvation to be made complete.
@@ILuvJazzNJava Colossians 1:23 - "if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister."
"if indeed" - "ei ge" - 1487 ei (a conditional conjunction) - if. 1487 /ei (followed by any verb) expresses "a condition, thought of as real, or to denote assumptions" (i.e. viewed as factual. for the sake of argument) (BAGD). Accordingly, 1487 (ei) should not be translated "since," but rather always "if" - since the assumption may only be portrayed as valid (true, factual).
Assuming the condition is true that you are one who is continuing in the faith. Basically saying that if that really is you who are continuing (if you are one of the true believers) then you are fine, if you are not continuing (not one of the true believers), then you are not fine.
Also, back in verse 13 it says "For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and TRANSFERRED us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, in whom we HAVE redemption, the forgiveness of sins."
"transferred" - "metestēsen" - aorist active indicative - done in the past. He transferred US to the kingdom of His Son.
"have" - "echomen" - present active indicative (present tense) - we presently have this redemption.
@@ILuvJazzNJava because it’s written to others who are fallible. We don’t know the future. Assuming that we know everything is pretty moronic. We know who is Christian by fruits. And fruits can for sure die. I want you to also understand if the elect is impersonal and not distinct. God can’t know who will be saved. And the work is Christ isn’t perfect, and merely depends on man and not God.
bruh what is Heisler even going on about?
heisenburg
Thank's Dr. James White, now I'm starting to be able to tell the difference, although my discernment is only perfected by The Holy Spirit as I continue to navigate and learn!
@deformed theologian NeedGod.com
James White has done an excellent job in this clip of gently correcting MH’s errors on Calvinism with a touch of humor. I suppose at the time of this correction Heiser was very ill in the pancreatic cancer that took his life. Anytime Heiser dealt with the subjects MH termed as “Calvinism” it was painful to hear the way he described the reformed view. I couldn’t understand how someone so brilliant could get it so wrong but White gives a possible explanation - MH hadn’t deepened himself in source material. My experience after many, many years in the faith is that what one bible teacher has, another lacks. I really appreciated Michael Heiser because he helped to foster in me a love of the OT with his teaching. James White is an even older acquaintance who’s blessed me greatly. Thanks JW!
God made him error, and God made you unable to understand
Thank you Dr. White!
Paul explains what it means to be "dead in your trespasses and sins" (Ephesians 2:1) in the verses that follow - walking according to the course of this world (verse 2), according to Satan. That is, living in the lusts of the flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and the mind, and being a child of wrath by nature (Ephesians 2:2-3).
How is it that Heiser thinks that a person living under that description would then submit to Christ without being regenerated?
Because they followed the bread crumbs of intrigue to the cross
@@DaysofElijah317they aren’t intrigued by the cross they reject the cross.
@@jermoosekek1101yes I agree I was merely trying to explain what I believe is his position. The Bible is clear no one seeks to do right we have all gone astray, may the blessing of GOD be upon you.
Heiser was the KING of “well, actually”. He always was trying to position himself to be this all wise authority by saying “well, actually” to nearly every single theology and thereby elevating his own wisdom above it, while at the same time never actually falling on any particular side. It annoyed me greatly. To point out something silly and then use it to say “I have a bone to pick with Calvinists” as though he has easily bested many of the greatest theologians the world has ever known is just comes across as arrogant. But he is assumedly with the Lord now so whatever.
Thanks for that lucid observation of Heiser.
@@Caleb-xf5yn 🫡
I love MH. I’m studying Hebrew now because he has so inspired me.
He's a very bad teacher... shallow and he makes things up.
@@leeebbs722 He couldn't make up anything worse that your youtube moniker which makes no sense.
@@annchovey2089 My "moniker" is my real name.... does it hurt to be that shallow minded?
Could not stick to what I said, so you had to revert to an shallow attack on that which you misunderstand.... typical Heiser follower.
"He who gives an answer before he hears,
It is folly and shame to him." Proverbs 18:13
@@leeebbs722 Have you ever heard of using capital letters? It would certainly add some clarity.
@@annchovey2089 You just proved how shallow minded you are. You shame yourself and show you are a hypocrite... since your moniker annchovey2089.... I mean I could not make up your demonstrative level of willful ignorance and hypocrisy even if I wanted to.
And, instead of doing what mature Christians do... come back when you realize you made a false accusation and apologize, you try to blame it on me.
Blinded indeed.
REPENT!
I lol'd when James pulled out an actual straw man puppet XD
I absolutely laughed! haha The sound effect too lol
A) “chosen by God” Sproul …” B) intrigued byGod” Heiser…Q: which is biblical?
GOD CHOSES WHOM HE WILLS❤
George Whitefield said, "We are all born Arminians." It is grace that turns us into Calvinists. (Charles Spurgeon, Sermons, Vol. 2, p. 124).
Man's rebellious nature makes the idea of a fully sovereign God repulsive. When anyone tries to harmonize the two, he picks his heresy.
God forced you to be calvinists
@craigime Yes. God forced me to adopt Calvinism by making sure my mind finds it to be a reasonable way of understanding the paradox of responsibility of man vs. sovereignty of God.
@@justanother240 he forced to to think it's reasonable?
@craigime It's not as if we have full control of our minds and the circumstances around us, which also influence our minds. Some say either you are a slave to your desires or you are a slave to God. I say we can be both. That is, we can desire God and willingly submit to him.
No you can't. God has to force you to desire him- there's absolutely nothing you can do about it. If you rebel, then God also forced you to do it; you don't willingly submit to God, you have no choice...So what are you talking about?
It would be good if Mr White, and Mr Heiser got together for an organized debate or dialogue. I mean their both brothers in Christ so why not..
@John Warren
I would watch. 🍿
White wouldn’t. Judging from this utter face plant, all of his presuppositions would be undermined. There’d be no debate.
shaneandpatsy Spargo can you please explain what you mean by face plant?
deformed theologian sir with all do respect what is your definition of a brother in Christ? please be specific as well.
These are two of my favorites
Honestly these debate videos are old, it's just one person saying "you missed my whole point" and another person's saying "you missed my whole point" no one brings the arguement any closer.
"If we could lose our salvation we would." Voddie Baucham
How?
Why does Dr. White feel the need to defend his Reformed Theology view? If it’s biblical, then the Bible will defend his view.
Why did Messiah in John chapter 6 and Paul in Romans 9? Why did Messiah defend the views of the Moses & the prophets since the Jews had the scriptures surely they would show that the scribes & Pharisees were twisting the word of God. But He did pronounce woes upon them, and correct them. So James is doing likewise and yes the scriptures do defend James views on these matters.
Heiser is wrong.
says the Elusive plebe cultist.
So is White
Thank God I'm not confused like Heiser was. It seems like people with his style of man centered theology just can't see or want to avoid understanding the truth due to their tradition and man centered philosophy. Thankful for the grace of God.
Behold, a Calvinist indeed, in whom there is no deceit! How can God overlook such a spiritually perfect man and not chose him??
In my experience it’s the Calvinists who doggedly hold to their tradition and man centred philosophy.
@@DA-yd2ny😂
"Man centered theology"
You mean calvinists?
The free will aspect of the human condition is the key to unlocking our understanding.
Prior to Augustine early church writers did not believe spiritual death was an inability to believe. Augustine hated Greek. He was a terrible exegete. But a brilliant rhetorician. Unfortunately, that won the day. That altered the Christian Faith beyond its original intent. Luther and Calvin lean heavily on Augustine’s conclusions. They did not accept the earlier church fathers who were lock step with the common view of Free Will. Created in God’s image. With the capacity to chose or not chose the Gospel. Faith before election not election before faith.
“And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.”
Acts 13:48
You put Heiser’s name in the title bc yours doesn’t hold enough weight. Pseudepigrapha indeed. Just like Calvin would, well done following Calvin and not Jesus.
Your ignorance astounds me almost as much as your arrogance
You clearly don't know who Dr. White is, and how exactly is that Pseudepigrapha? Please explain to us all. And btw, Calvinist don't follow Calvin, we follow Christ.
The early church fathers prior to Augustine in no way believed or taught anything to do with Calvinism. Yes, Augustine was a brilliant man, but intelligence doesn’t necessarily dictate godly wisdom. Augustine took some right turns on certain scripture and lead us away from the true interpretation of many scriptures. I was christened in the Roman Catholic Church and later made my first communion, but when I started reading the Bible I left the Roman Catholic Church. I never had a bad experience there, but there’s too much incorrect theology in the Roman Catholic Church. Augustine was one of the early church fathers of the Roman Catholic Church.
Calvin and the Reformers never wrote any of the Bible. Their interpretation of scripture was based on what they had at the time, and also subject to cultural influences of their time. They were not inspired. You commenting on someone's recording is so dishonest and wrong its hard to stomach. You put yourself in the power position to not give him a way to defend himself or address you specifically.
This is a disgusting example of the dishonesty of many "christian" youtubers. This is disgustingly dishonest behavior!
The category of “creaturely will” is being “left out”? Where is “creaturely will” actually in Scripture?
Gospel of Calvin 6:66
@@semipelagianpangolin you literally disgust me
Where is libertarian free will actually in scripture?
Where is Trinity in scripture?
@@semipelagianpangolin you literally disgust me
if i'm dead and can't choose and believe then it's not possible to be in rebellion, i'm just like an animal, instinctive and amoral. if i'm a christian and not pre-selected, then i'm wasting my time worshipping and praying to a God who wants nothing to do with me, who is absolutely intent on destroying me without mercy or grace; i'm even missing out on the fleshly satisfactions. what exactly is the Gospel (good news) of calvinism for such christians? so God pre-selected the elect, and nothing could change that, and still God decided to sacrifice His own Son even tho that has ZERO impact on what He already predestined? calvinism is nonsense and blasphemes the character of God and His scriptures. calvinism teaches a different gospel and another jesus, seriously consider getting out. the thing predestined is the plan for salvation, the New Covenant, and NOT which individuals choose to believe and enter into the New Covenant.
13:05 13:17
"Like UFO's" was a demonstrable use of the strawman argument against him, THEN you said "strawman" 10 seconds later in a classic projection move. You come off as VERY offended/defensive in this video. I get the feeling you take offense a lot.
This why I do not understand how a Arminian can believe in the eternal security of the believer.
I don’t believe Dr. Heiser believes in eternal security
The eternal security of “the believer” is exactly what the Arminian believes.
They don’t. That’s why they harken back to the warning texts as often as they do.
I agree with Heiser on a lot, and very much appreciate a lot of his work on restoring the supernatural worldview of Scripture, but his constant misrepresentations of Calvinism (or whatever you want to call it) are the most annoying aspects of reading his work. He infers from the existence of spiritual wills, therefore libertarianism. Which is the point at issue in the debate. So, no, the existence of the Heavenly Host and its active participation in a lot of history does not disprove the Calvinists.
his stuff is nothing but speculation and extra biblical nonsense. he is not a smart guy
@@barkwahlmerg Sorry, he’s right about Genesis 6, Psalm 82, etc. Last I checked those are in the Bible.
@@nate296 I have to agree with bark... Heiser seems very ambiguous on a lot of big topics. Abortion, the doctrine of hell (I think I heard him say he leans more toward the annihilation doctrine), nephilem and angels.... he just takes one aspect of something and runs off with it. A doctrinal magician. Pulling stuff out of his hat
@@nate296 for instance within this video alone, there is many troubling things within his theology. The part after 21:42 in this video describes how heiser has applied the way God used His Spirit in man in the old covenant, into how it is in the new covenant. And that one misconception leads to a rambling on a topic, when the first premise was wrong. We are now in dwelt with the Spirit.
Just the way he talks makes me anxious, because he makes whole theology’s from a couple of verses. It feels like every video I watch of him is a rabbit hole
@@sovereigngrace9723 Hes not a pastor, he's a scholar. His job is to make you think. After all, a healthy Christian is one who is always thinking and growing theologically.
John 17:2 (ESV)Jesus says to the Father,
, “since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life TO ALL WHOM YOU HAVE GIVEN HIM.” In verse 6 it says, “ I have manifested your name to the people WHOM YOU GAVE ME OUT OF THE WORLD. YOURS THEY WERE, AND YOU GAVE THEM TO ME,....” Verse 9, “ I am praying for them. I AM NOT PRAYING FOR THE WORLD BUT FOR THOSE WHOM YOU HAVE GIVEN ME, FOR THEY ARE YOURS.
I have recently discovered Dr. Heiser’s works on the supernatural and have been quite intrigued and challenged by his scholarship. However, he is not a NT scholar as is artfully mentioned in this video. I’d love to hear him respond to the content of this video, and Jesus’ priestly prayer of John 17.
Why is it that when people who wish to refute Calvinism always seem to inject what they think Calvinism is and try to put it across as what represents Calvinism when in fact it is a gross misrepresentation?
Heiser also has a history of conflating non-canonical writ and with Biblical text and using them in order to fill in the blanks in order to support his theological presuppositions. It's bad research. The non-canonical books have no Authority in and of themselves to use them in such a way. When reading some of Dr Heiser's books, make sure you have your tin foil hot firmly on your head.
What kind of question is that? God decreed him to be so
Please do not be dismissive of Dr. Heiser...that shows GROSS, smug arrogance and ignorance on your part . You change your tune every time you're challenged. You could only hope to have half the grace and teaching ability of the late Dr. Heiser
"Gross, smug arrogance and ignorance" is James white
Dr White, do you still believe that it is possible that God would create infants for damnation, to glorify himself?
He does. He's just too cowardly to say it openly
Death means separation not unconscious
Who says it means unconscious?
Can you deal with Michael Heiser teachings on Angels, Demons, gods, and courts of heaven.
Its not courts of heaven that's someone else. You must mean Divine Counsel
Maybe listen to Dr Michael Heiser and learn??
@@joelampshire2470 Heiser is theologically locked in to those categories and his teaching is solid but when it comes to the area of soteriology, he allows his rejection of Calvinism to cause his misunderstanding…
@@Kenneth-nVA I agree with Heiser rejection of Calvinism. That doctrine makes God look like a partial and lunatic bastard. I can't think of a more vile doctrine then this besides the rejection of the Gospel of Grace
@DA-yd2ny Heiser never rejected Calvinism, just the distorted caricature of Calvinism that existed in his head. Heiser lacked an inability to actually listen and engage with many people, he just liked hearing his own thoughts. He was over confident and smug while he was alive.
To accuse Dr. Heiser of not having read reformed theology to any depth at all is so absurd it cannot be quantified.
White's attempts to defend Calvinism are cripplingly biased and even petty.
Grateful however, for much of his other works. His defense style of true gospel essentials is noticeably better than his desperate attempts to justify what he wants to be true in Calvinism in spite of the evidence to the contrary.
What’s the contrary evidence ?
The things you say don’t come from Scripture. You are guilty of eisegesis. Bringing Calvinism to the Bible.
In Roman law slaves were legally dead, their names were written Capitis Diminutio: no standing, no rights, no autonomy. Such cannot free themselves. It's a safe inference that the metaphor used by Jesus was drawing on this concept. Wiki says "loss of liberty, citizenship, and family (e.g. being made a slave or prisoner of war)".
I’ve heard you and a few other people explain Calvinism and it still doesn’t make sense. It does more damage than encourage people to seek the kingdom of God. My church is reformed but because the gospel and commission is preached all the same, I still go.
Who cares?!!!!!
You’re getting hung up on semantics and choosing to sin with your mockery and slandering of a brother.
The contrast is not between spiritual life and spiritual death, but rather been the natural man and the spiritual man - 1 Corinthians 2.
When Adam was condemned to death in Genesis, that is not the same as teaching he “spiritually died.” Indeed, that concept is injected into the text to explain why he didn’t drop dead. But the issue, if understood as a legal condemnation, avoids any implication of something taught nowhere else in scripture (ie spiritual death). The natural man doesn’t receive the things of God, not the spiritually dead guy.
I am not a Calvanist, but it is sad to see people misrepresent systems of belief (including Calvanism) so badly. How can people learn and study the Scriptures together if we misrepresent eachother to try to win arguements?
The Heisner fanbots are incredibly annoying in this comment section. Look guys Heisner could be right about literally everything else but when it comes to Calvinism he cant even properly represent it and you can't refute something you don't understand. Heisner is 100% wrong in this instance, get over it.
Daniel , deceived by the satan you are. It’s been a year, hopefully you’ve matured, chosen wisely, and seen the light . Calvinism/reformed theology are nothing like Jesus the Messiah.
Says the JW fanboy
Oh, how those that worship their imaginary autonomous free will need confirmation from making merchandise of like-minded creatures in order to remain on their throne of deceit. This "Drs" discourse is beyond absolutely ridiculas.
Thanks be to God for raising up James White.
even as a Presbyterian(WCF church), I am so thankful for James White, he is a juggernaut of modern reformed theology
James White, the one who got his degree from a diploma mill?
I don't think it matters whether the theology or the metaphor comes 1st... The metaphor never made sense to me because we are not dead men we have living brains computing information and making decisions every day. If you want to use this analogy then I use the analogy that Christ can raise dead men physically... Therefore maybe he raises us from the dead and then We are saved. See what I mean that doesn't make sense at all nothing about this makes sense because it's not apples to apples it's a metaphor.
Always seem to me that people are hardcore cavenist and defended because they like the idea of being chosen And having no choice to choose back therefore they are special above all others that do not proclaim to have the same special luck
John chapter 3 cannot see, cannot enter - cannot (not will not) = inability
“"Seek the Lord while he may be found; call upon him while he is near; let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; let him return to the Lord, that he may have compassion on him, and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.”
Isaiah 55:6-7 ESV
To whom is God speaking - commanding to seek...call...forsake....return...????
Those that he glorified? As per the Isaiah 55:5.
His elect. As per the rest of scripture
Israel, i.e. his elected people
"You did not choose Me but I chose you..." John 15:16
regeneration - during which, in part, one receives a saving faith enabling one to believe
"No self aware humans"... You gotta laugh at the Calvinism bashing bandwagon as it passes by. Honk honk! 😂😂😂
It’s really hard to listen to an Arminian defend his theology or argue against Biblical theology.
If their reasoning was a ship at sea, the bottom of the ocean would be their home.
If you like your Leighton Flowers you can keep your Leighton Flowers.
So only Calvinists are saved, right?
Why even be upset? God obviously ordained Heiser and all non-Calvinists to believe such 'heresy'. He is sovereign after all. Take solace in that you are elected by God to be saved while everyone else (including non-Calvinist Christians) are resigned to eternal conscious torment in hell. Boy are they are in for a big surprise when they find out they are going to hell (forever) simply because God didn't randomly write their name in the Book of Life. Serves them right though, yeah?
@@N.i.E.M.O _"So only Calvinists are saved, right?"_
Nice emotive response based on nothing anyone has said. No one is getting into heaven with perfect theology.
_"Why even be upset? God obviously ordained Heiser and all non-Calvinists to believe such 'heresy'. He is sovereign after all."_
And he ordains other Christians to respond to Heiser's error with corrections. He does so by establishing human free will and the liberty and contingency of second causes by what he ordains (Westminster Confession 3.1)
_"Take solace in that you are elected by God to be saved while everyone else (including non-Calvinist Christians) are resigned to eternal conscious torment in hell."_
Not how it works on Calvinism.
_"Boy are they are in for a big surprise when they find out they are going to hell (forever) simply because God didn't randomly write their name in the Book of Life. Serves them right though, yeah?"_
In Calvinism, God sends people to hell for their sins, of which they are guilty and unrepentant.
In many non-Calvinist views, Jesus atones for everyone's sins thus making them legally innocent before God, but God is petty and sends legally innocent people to hell merely for not acknowledging what his Son did for them. So loving!
I'm sure you'll see that as just as accurate to your view as your version of Calvinism is to my views.
Heiser is not an Arminian, you guys drop the scarecrow card whenever feeling misrepresented (100% of the time). Soteriology and ecclesiology are more complicated than this ridiculous binary fallacy Calvinism waves back and forth.
@Psalm 39:4
Nice insult. Can you actually address any of the criticisms I brought up, or is, "lol do your research, fool" all I'm worth?
So only Calvinists are saved, right?
Wrong.
Only the SAVED are saved.
Creaturely will? How many terms are you gonna make up?
At 9 minutes in, Dr White is misunderstanding the point Dr Heiser is trying to make. Dr Heiser is not saying that Calvinists believe spiritually dead people have all the same natural characteristics as a naturally dead person (in particular, the lack of volitional will). Rather he is pointing out the analogy that Calvinists make all the time, that as the Natural Dead person lacks volition in the natural realm, so the Spiritually Dead person lacks volition in the spiritual realm, at least as far as repentance and faith are concerned. Dr Heiser's concern with this is that Calvinist is trying to make an analog to spiritual deadness out of all the aspects of natural deadness. He thinks this is doing more than scripture does.
That was a concise, accurate representation of Heiser's statement. It will naturally fall like seed on concrete here 🤣👍
The analogy Calvinists make? We got that analogy from Paul. Ephesians 2: 1. Heiser is stretching it far beyond where we take it.
@@oracleoftroy Yes, well Heiser agrees that scripture uses deadness as a metaphor for the spiritual condition of those outside of Christ. His critique of the Calvinist application of the metaphor is their tendency to take all of the characteristics of natural deadness and make a spiritual parallel out. Heiser would argue that Calvinists press the metaphor too far by equating the inability of a dead man to act with an inability of the spiritually dead man to repent and believe the gospel.
@@HarrisBeauchamp I disagree and will reassert that Heiser pushes the analogy far further than we do.
Let's take the claims from your original post
_"Rather he is pointing out the analogy that Calvinists make all the time, that as the Natural Dead person lacks volition in the natural realm, so the Spiritually Dead person lacks volition in the spiritual realm, at least as far as repentance and faith are concerned."_
Do we claim we lack volition in the spiritual realm? Citation?
Westminster Confession chapter 9 explains the Calvinist affirmation of free will:
3) Man, by his fall into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any *spiritual good accompanying salvation:* so as, a natural man, being altogether *averse* from that good, and dead in sin, is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.
First, what does 3 affirm about fallen man? They have aversion. They have strength, they can prepare themselves, etc. Are those things that dead men can do if we stretch the analogy as far as Heiser does? No.
But carefully note what is being denied. Don't shorten it to "lost all ability of will". Don't shorten it to "lost all ability of will to any spiritual good". What is being denied is our "ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation". We cannot live a perfect life as God's law requires, and we cannot save ourselves by our deeds or our will. The strength we do have is not the sort of strength that can cause us to save ourselves. The preparation we can do is not the sort that can prepare our own salvation. That is what is being claimed. That's why we need a savior, we can't save ourselves.
The reason we are dead in sin (as the Bible puts it) isn't merely because we don't believe in Jesus, but because when we examine following God's way or continuing in sin, we much prefer our sin and hate God from the bottom of our hearts. Aside from the analogy of deadness, the Bible also describes our fallen state as one of slavery to sin and Satan, and as slaves, we always serve our master.
But Heiser feels he has to push our reference to the Biblical analogy of death to a point of absurdity to contradict our position instead of accounting for what we actually confess. His lack of care in this area where I do know a few things makes me doubt his work in his area of expertise. Is he just as flippant and shoddy in his main thesis as he is in this area? Heiser compromises his reputation with his shoddy scholarship on these issues.
I have far more respect for people who are upfront about their ignorance when criticizing Calvinism (as Mike Winger is) or who take extreme care to accurately define what we do and do not confess (as Jerry Walls does), or those who have their own private opinion but realize they don't have the knowledge or interest to meaningfully discuss the issues involved.
the spiritual dead man cannot repent or believe - because 1) he cannot see his sin and 2) he lacks the gift of saving faith. John chapter 3 - cannot see and cannot enter. Cannot connotes inability. Will not connotes lack of volition. Jesus said cannot not will not.
LOL, this guy (White) is hilarious. He keeps saying "look back at what the original church fathers said", and Dr. Heiser says look back at what the original Hebrew ssys. I choose Heiser's interpretation over SR. Calvinist any day... What a joke!
Yep
@@flhdave.josh24.15 What an erudite response!
"Creaturely Free Will". Such adhoc category creation is why we don't take Reformed Theology seriously. It's a joke. I left it YEARS ago but Heiser never bit.
Your ad hominem response to Dr. Heiser's position says it all!
That's all he has.
Whats hilarious I just read where Heiser refuted White spectacularly. Listening to this video I'm wondering if Heiser even knows what's oozing out of his mouth.
"felt needs" is hilarious
John 6:46 no one has seen the father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the father. Mathew 11.27 no one knows the father except the son and those to whom the son wishes to reveal him. John 6:37 all that the father gives me will come to me.
John 6:45 everyone who has heard the father and learned from him comes to me.
@deformed theologian no it confirms it.
Actually if Dr Heiser adheres to the definition that death is “ the absence of conscience life” then he should-would believe in conditional immortality in his view of Hell!
He said he leans towards conditionalism.
Wow. Very disappointed with Dr. Heiser here. Sheesh.
Heiser was merely espousing a pop-culture misconception of Calvinism. All that nonsense, just for Heiser to finally, at 20:59, reveal that his actual gripe is that he doesn't want to give God full credit for gifting us with saving-faith. ALL GLORY TO YHVH!!!
I was really disappointed in Heiser. His understanding of reformed teaching lacks any real depth.
I think he shows the inadequacy of it.
@@bertgoat If it's so inadequate. Why does it keep creating Reformers?
@@rogervincent2092 why does any teaching gain adherents whether it is true or not. I look at the comments on this type of forum and when I see the variance of views I sometimes wonder how many are on the same page and how there could possibly be such a range of views when we supposedly have the same base information
People in this comment section are savage and I love it!
total depravity (inability) without an ability to please God
what do you mean?
Heiser has no understanding about spiritual death
Wow 😳. Michael Heiser was raised a Calvinist and here you are making statements about what you believe he is saying. Really
Your rudeness and mockery is not Christian like
I'm inclined to believe Heiser just because your tone of voice is so self righteous.
"nuh uh, you don't even understand!"
Also, Calvinism is anything but straight forward, it seems to be swish cheese to this humble Christian.
This sounds like an emotional response. It would seem that you are offended by someone pointing out your defects or misunderstandings. Have you missed the parts of scripture where Messiah did this to the scribes & Pharisees? Jesus sounds very self righteous... probably because He is.
@@fuzzycounsellor9147 It's actually a fed up response.
I was willing to accept Calvinism, but I find it to be biblically lacking. I know the verses, but if you don't read determinism into the text, it is pretty easy to read it as God is in total control, and chose to give us the choice to love him or not.
Augustine was a former Gnostic that couldn't let go of his old beliefs.
It is very hard to not get emotional, when I state the side of Calvinism clearly, get a nod from the Calvinist, then show my case against it. And boom magically, I don't understand. If you haven't read the literature of traditionalists or provisionists with an open mind, then you haven't even bothered being objective.
Not to mention, the eastern orthodox churches never had a Calvinism pop up because they understand the majority of "Calvinist" passages are talking about corporate election.
Sorry for the rant.
@@fuzzycounsellor9147 I don't misunderstand, White has totally decided to not entertain the possibility that he is wrong. Jesus can be self righteous, because he IS righteous. Dr. White, should have some humility, and openness..
I understand he has invested years into a Calvinism, and has staked a good part of his reputation on it, but it is a false doctrine. The only way it hasn't damaged the body of Christ is if it is 100% true, and after over 100 hrs of study, I'm convinced it is extra-biblical.
@@travissharon1536
Trying to read someone else's motives is dangerous.
You seem to imply that James is sticking to his views because he is invested and not because he actually believes & has entertained the possibility that his views could be wrong.
I believe that you sincerely believe in your views and have no ulterior motive for holding them. I also believe you are wrong, and that sincerity make nothing true or false but makes your motives pure.
I believe an atheist when they say they believe there no God, that that is what they actually believe and are being honest about holding that belief, as flawed as it may seem to those of us who know God IS.
You should understand from a logical perspective that those who hold a contrary view to the common understanding of a thing are forced by being at odds with what is commonly accepted to examine whether what they believe is true. Because they will be attacked for their view over & over by those who cannot see that it is the correct understanding of the thing.
Thank you for responding in a brotherly way I really enjoyed your reasoning even if not agreeing with your conclusions. ; )
@@fuzzycounsellor9147 I'm sure he believes the doctrine of Calvinism entirely. The reason I believe he is invested in the belief though, is that instead of directly addressing contrary views he marginalizes and knowingly or not uses strawmanning and adhomonym attacks.
Another point is that, despite the old testament being the foundation of the fulfillment of Christ, and the word of God. He isn't willing to use the old testament to deduce the nature of God.
The way he addresses his non-calvinistic brothers makes me sad, and frustrated.
He isn't really a Calvinist, Calvin wrote that he believed God did decree sin.
I also, dont agree with the whole primary and secondary causes thing Dr White subscribes to, if God is Sovereign as high Calvinist understand the term it is completely inconsistent to not see God as the author of Sin.
Anyway, I love you as a brother despite this disagreement.
Faith, exercised by the individual, always proceeds regeneration. Any other view is in error. James White's problem is that he equates the work of the Holy Spirit, in convicting one of their sins as the same as regeneration, thus the Calvinist erroneous believe that regeneration proceeds faith.
James White, while he is my brother and in the family, has never had my respect. Most calvinists tend to assume they are in a position of authority.
Heiser doesn't need to (though he has and isn't convinced a bit) read reformed theology extensively. He is a scholar and is more versed (pun intended) than James white. Calvinists end up leaning towards being a calvinist 1st and a christian 2nd. I am utterly turned off by their eagerness ro die on the denominational hill.
Heiser would crush James white in a debate but Mike is more dialed in to saving souls than convincing other Christians (that are alreasyvsaved) that they should agree with him on peripheral issues.
Again, James White is pathetic imo
Go back to Calvin or Augustine but notice we never can go back to the Bible
Mike does what many do, in that he imagines what reformed followers of Messiah believe rather than actually doing the research necessary to properly represent our views. I have seen this kinda strawman arguing in many a person who is not well versed in a subject.
This demonstrates that they are ignorant of the subject matter. In such matters they would be wise to shut up and appear ignorant rater than talking as Mike does & removing all doubt as to their lack of knowledge as to what it is those he want to critique believe.
Mike should not debate as it takes hard work to do the research and he seems too lazy to do what is necessary to prepare. While I believe few minds are changed by debate, Mike's desire to misrepresent his opponent's views would be severely hampered by an open debate and he would look dishonest like he truly is.
Got a match scarecrow?
RC Sproul said the very same think about inability or deafness being the very bedrock of Calvinism James .... I've heard u make some of these same analogies concerning deafness like the bottom of the well type things.. But then again nobody understands reformed theology huh?
Calvinism (and Augustine) believes that Adam and Eve had the ability to choose to sin or not sin in the garden. After the fall, they lost the ability to choose to NOT sin. They became slaves to their sin nature and all unsaved people now freely CHOOSE to sin continually because they no longer have the ability or desire to seek God or do what is right. Even their "good" deeds are seen as filthy rags by God because they are done to please self, feel good, look good to others NOT to glorify God. We are "dead" in our sins because we can no longer choose to NOT sin. But that doesn't mean that they are spiritually not conscious or not able to make choices as Heiser misrepresents. They are freely CHOOSING to sin. They are totally depraved and see righteous things as folly in their fallen state. Their ability to CHOOSE to NOT sin is dead but they are consciously making free choices to sin all the time. It is not that they don't have freewill it is that their will is in bondage to sin and they freely choose to rebel against God because they desire it and God's ways are seen as foolish to them. This is what it means to be spiritually dead by a Calvinist. Has nothing to do with Heiser's thinking that unsaved are spiritually unconscious and can't make any choices at all. Ridiculous.
Exactly, Calvinism is the teenage girl of tradition, they hate everyone and nobody understands them.
Okay where does Sproul say man cant make choices? Thats the part Heisner was wrong about. Try to follow along better.
@@danielomitted1867 you don't know what you're talking about kid..
@@cecilspurlockjr.9421 okay show me one calvinist who says we cant make choices? We do its just that we will make choices that are consistent with our nature
Heiser did a lot of cool stuff over the years but was always really bad on this particular topic. Standard "God didn't make us robots" stuff you hear in Southern Baptist Sunday schools.
Heyman!
Jame Wright does a disservice of attacking someone unable to defend himself.
He's not attacking Dr. Heiser, he's critiquing his caricature of calvinism, and I think he's right to do it. I like Dr. Heiser and his content, but I don't agree with him on this point. If you listen to Dr. Heiser for any length of time you know he does this often, where he misrepresents calvinism unfairly.
Trying to watch this again and I’m just taken aback again at how smug and self righteous Mr White is. …much like most other Calvinists I know. Why does it seem like Calvinists believe in Calvin more than Jesus? Bc their faith is not in God, but their LIMITED understanding. They’d rather hold onto Calvin than the parts of the Bible they don’t understand.
Heiser is awesome!
Period
It amazes me the categories that Calvinists have to make up to explain the plain reading of scripture. Because you make up categories, it does not follow that they are true. Creaturely will? Where is that in the scripture? All only means all when a Calvinist says so. When God said me did not want people to be sacrificed to molech he actually did not mean that. But if God determines all acts, why does he say he does not? . But I know I will be told that I don't understand Calvinism as only Calvinists do.
Heiser would run circles around this guy in an open debate, the sign of fear is to edit answers then lecture over the edit. This is quite laughable
I love Dr. Heiser, l listen to all his podcasts and have read a lot of his books, love his content. But I (some nobody) would run circle's around him in a debate on calvinism, let alone someone like Dr. White.
@@MrRomka404 I’ve been reading his stuff lately. It’s quite hilarious how he’ll just be talking about something and then veer off into refuting his bizarre misinterpretations of Calvinism as an application.
@@nate296 yeah Dr Heiser is a great old testament scholar, but he's not a theologian, and it's especially evident when hes talking about new testament theology
Ya, I'm no Calvinist for sure, but White does make valid points. I have never heard a Calvinist argue that unregenerate individuals don't have consciousness. On the other hand, I have talked to many Calvinists who use the metaphor of spiritual deadness as the primary evidence for the inability to respond positively to the gospel. I'm glad Dr White does not do this, but it is less of a misrepresentation given the number of people who actually make the argument
@@BuildingApologetics "Dead means dead!" is a common refrain I hear
That’s the problem with calvanistic debates.... Calvinism depends to much on secondary literary sources, and not the primary sources from which Dr. Hesier offers through contextual exegesis!
It doesn't depend on secondary sources at all. It depends on scripture. Secondary sources might be helpful to explain things, but that's all. It all goes back to scripture.
@@OC3707 Correction....That’s the problem! You’re presupposing that by reading scripture an individual would intuitively understand it in a literal sense. Yes, I would agree some passages of scriptures are pretty cut and dry. But the majority reading of scripture requires a great deal of biblical hermeneutics! Now I understand why Christ adds to the believers that how would they hear without a “preacher “ the motif of that analogy explains a great deal concerning biblical understanding. Keep in mind... the Bible wasn’t written to us; but for us! Sometimes people translate when they should transliterate scripture and vice versa. So unless you’re very diverse in Hebraic culture, first century Judaism, 2nd Temple semantics and how all of that applies to us today, I advise people to pay closer attention to primary sources instead of secondary sources because sometimes secondary can be very opinionated and divert you away from the context of scripture. I’m not saying it’s all bad or wrong, because there are some truths that can be found in 2nd literature! Remember, there are no verses in the original manuscripts of the Bible. Verses were added about 500 years ago only to help us navigate the text better. The Jewish culture had no verses separating scripture!
Calvinism depends on the Bible, which I believe is a primary literary source.
@@davidbalicki3567 Absolutely! My point exactly…… the Bible doesn’t need our help, we need help with the Bible! So if you’re not applying the appropriate exegesis or hermeneutics while interpreting scripture, then not only are you doing yourself and everyone around you a disservice, you’re also violating 2 Timothy 2:15… ( by not rightly dividing the word of truth!) by which your claim, that you believe! The Bible!!
he said to go back to Luther, Agustine, but forgot to mention to go one step more "Manichaeism" ;P
When you listen to Heiser and White...
Heiser's got a good grasp on Old Testament theological ideas. White's got soteriology right though. Seriously, this is embarrassing for Heiser though, he should really read reformed writers.
Heiser has read Reformed writers, and the WCF as well. Unlike White he has a real PhD.
@@dandeliontea7 I've actually recently been watching an in-depth video on the reformed writings by Dr. Heiser. It was also my understanding that Heiser has attended Presbyterian churches for a while so his brief comments here were odd to me. The symbol of a dead person being a hyperbole taken to an extreme doesn't address the main points of reformed soteriology, the symbol is a secondary point that flows from the main ones as an illustration. I used to agree with Heiser's soteriology, but after extensive Bible studying and reading and listening to different teachers, I came to the conclusion kicking and screaming that I was just wrong.
I will grant it to Heiser though, reformed teachers use the illustration of a dead body so frequently in such a way that it sounds like they all accept in reformed theology because of this illustration. This confused me at first but if you continue digging and listening you realize that's not what they build their case around but rather a helpful tool to explain what they believe, and, more importantly the Biblical symbol given for it.
As for a "real PhD" I have a few things. 1. If somebody is quoting from the firsthand sources, translating accurately, and articulating the statements well, their degree is only a sign that they can make it through college. 2. A PhD is valuable because it can be a helpful sign that someone may know what they're talking about. 3. I had no idea James White didn't have a PhD! Could you please provide me the evidence for that?
@@sanctifiedsoldier644 When facing pushback on total inability, Calvinists DO use the analogy of a dead person -- the refrain "Dead means DEAD!" is a common retort, as if that somehow proves their point. They do take the hyperbolic language further than it is intended.
@@peterfox7663 I don't deny that. I think it's poor argument and there are many Scriptures which they could use instead.
Michael Heiser and Leighton Flowers are twin sons of different Mothers.
If you have resolutely fixed your opinion, though it be upon too slight and insufficient grounds, yet you will stand determined to renounce the strongest reason brought for the contrary opinion, and grow obstinate against the force of the clearest argument.
Isaac Watts
It is Satan not Adam in John 8 that bound men and prevented Jesus's interlocutors from seeing the truth.
2 Corinthians 4:4 blinded the minds
That would include Adam.
@@Caleb-xf5yn That is in tradition but not in the biblical text.
Heiser comes across as something of a drip. He clearly knows nothing about Calvinism
🤣🤣🤣 Epic Fail.
He’s doing the same thing with Heiser’s audio that Calvin followers do with scripture.
Knowing Heiser’s background and hearing the actual interview, all of the points White makes are moot. He needs to discuss with Heiser.
Can you give me some examples and time stamps from both of them?
Have you even read the first full volume of Calvin's Institutes? If you have, where are it's biblical inconsistencies? How is Dr. White's explanation of Dr. Heiser's biblical misunderstanding of sin nature an 'epic fail'? And all the Calvinists I've ever met appear to be followers of Christ...not John Calvin.
If there's anything epic here, it's your misrepresentation of Dr. White's analysis.
I believe we (ironically) call this a strawman argument.
John Calvin wasn’t a Christian he was a mass murderer
Calvanism....very problematic. Anyone notice the ENDLESS fragmentation and splinters? Every week another group forms a church because "they are gonna get it right this time"
I notice your attack on scripture but that’s about it.
interesting that you seem to know about Calvinism, but have problems spelling it. You greatly exaggerate when you say, "every week..." That's not true, sorry.
So are you saying you had no choice in your repentance or that you have not repented?? I think scripture clearly States that he comes after us like the lost sheep but we still have to repent and accept Him and His sacrifice redemption plan.
TRUE REPENTENCE IS GIVEN BY GOD
@@justjoe4260 The satans lie you’re repeating Joe.
@@truthseeker5698 unregenerate,unforgiven,unrepentant sinner in ADAM, YOU HAVE NO ETERNAL TRUTH in YOU OR YOUR FALSE god TO KNOW❤
Dr Heiser, in my opinion, is so far off track in so many places I'd have no idea where to start. He alarms me.
You’re alarmed because the cult doctrines encompass you .
The problem with calvinism is that it stems from a mixture of hellenistic cults with Judaism and christianity.
No wonder that you are alarmed by biblical truth
Why would anyone go back to some who called themselves "divines"?(Westminster divines). Not to mention that Heiser was twice the scholar white will ever be! His video is a short, accurate recap of what Calvinists really teach and believe.
Don't you guys realize he rebutted these claims using reformed creeds like the Belgic (article 22). If my knowledge is correct, there was no response from JW
It amazes me how such a smart man (White) can’t see the point Heiser is making. Tradition is getting in the way.
I think youre the one missing the point. Heisner is strawmaning what Calvinism is and how Calvinist reach their conclusions.
Calvinism is an affront to God. Period