The shove is canonically accurate. Imagine if the heavy had a shove. Or soldier. You'd be sent flying. But scout's "tiny baby arms" can't make it happen.
@@Mega_idk Given Scout's weight, pushing a Heavy with a 150 kg minigun 2 feet in the air is a pretty strong feat. Scout with his in-game melee damage is just him flailing quick swings with one arm. In the Meet the Medic trailer, he can one shot a Soldier with it. In-game, if he uses two arms he will send the person flying (taunt kill). This is a canon feat since he can kill a bear with a single swing and even take the full recoil of the Force-A-Nature that sends him up in the air.
Scout can literally shove the 400 pound Heavy with the 300 pound Minigun quite some distance, if anything Scout is ridiculously strong for his weight and size. Not to mention, Scout can swing a bat with one hand for his melee without being affected by the vibrations and recoil from striking something solid with said bat. It's likely that Scout doesn't swing the bat full force in his regular melee attack, as he can be seen killing a bear with a single one handed blow when properly putting muscle into it. And that's not taking into consideration that he can fling grown men 50 or so meters into the air when swinging the bat with both hands
@@theshermantanker7043 Don't even start about his defense. The guy can survive getting ALL the blood in his body removed after getting punched by a guy who can lift a bear larger than a plane.
The little "shove" is just a "nyeh". Not even a "hargh" like a push in a fight, much less a shove, its just a nudge. Like a little boy teasing his crush or something. Smh my head.
@DragonfishJames shove deals 1 damage, i had 3 health left and was running to a health pack, i got shoved and died. and the scout started freaking out about the random crit shove.
@Catfish then that would be kinda broken because now u cover all ranges and do more damage then a pistol with more ammo if it was a secondary, That would be sick as hell tho!
Give it the "Fires a Fixed Shot Pattern" like the Panic Attack, keep the reload gimmick, include one more pellet to make a cross pattern/amp up the damage slightly, and take off the ridiculous shove and increased pushback. Now you have a mid-range weapon people will use.
leave the shove in, it doesn't harm the scout and you can technically combo the shove with the shortstop shots. if he's gonna be entering melee range for it at least let it be rewarding
I feel like giving it a fixed shot pattern would make it harder to do more damage at mid-range, since fixed shot patterns (usually) have the spread built in, making some of your pellets impossible to ever hit (at mid-range), while without the fixed shot pattern, you can get lucky and hit with all your pellets. I've never played the game with a fixed shot pattern on the shortstop, so I don't actually know if what I said would be the case for that weapon in particular, but from what I know, it probably would be. I'd say that the only change it could really use to be better, but still balanced, would be to give it the same max ramp-up as all the other scatterguns, so it does 175% damage at close range instead of 150%. Then, it would do 21-84 damage at close range, instead of 18-72, which is still less than the stock's 11-105, but if you're good at aiming it, it should be the superior weapon, since you'll hit with more of the pellets. If they did what you're suggesting, it would be almost a straight upgrade to stock. It would have the same theoretical max damage as stock (except for meatshots, which would deal 18-90 damage, compared to stock's 11-105), reload more efficiently, have more consistent damage, and the pellets would be easier to hit with, in exchange for holding 33% less ammo.
@@clunk42 big disagree. you can get unlucky with the spread and miss everything, so fixed pattern is better. not to mention that shortstop already has a tighter spread so it works out.
I gots an idea for it tell me what you think. It should fire 5 pellets that deal 12 damage so 60 damage a shot .and if right mouse it fires all the shots but at a 35%less damage so it adds up to a 160 damage burst . But the things spread is wider than stock and falls off sooner. So its a high damage burst weapon that reloads fast but at anything other than close to close-mid range it worse than stock. Also m1 fires faster so its not super weak at 60 damage a shot.
@@pissthrower4477 Scout named it the Shortstop after the thing that one chick with the bucket of chicken called him mid-intercourse, except that he didn't know what it meant
@@pissthrower4477 It doesn't need changing to make it better, its arguably better than his stock because of the instant reload with little downsides. The damage doesn't fall off as much as you'd figure, from my experience using it.
@Poe Soul It would be a bit op, because not only would you have the Scattergun, amongst the strongest weapons in the game, now you have a mid to long range mini-shotgun-thing, allowing you to finishing off targets outside your Scattergun range
Anyone else remember that period where value just kept buffing the crit-a-cola until eventually it was +mini-crits+speed boost, all for only a small enough damage taken debuff that you couldn't even be one-shot by a rocket
valve weapon balances are honestly absolutely baffaling like "theres this laser pistol that does jack shit, guess we gotta nerf it to the 7th circle of hell, also lets buff the scorch shot again, thats a good idea"
@@gangstascout3593 At least it's not as bad as Blizzard's balancing, those guys could give mercy a tool to instantly and permanently heal all teammates with no penalties and think it's balanced.
There was a time when if you got jarated, it would last so long that you could drink the crit-a-cola (which made you take mini crits at this time), run for the entire duration of the drink and shoot people, and still be affected by the debuff. And at this time jarate was used by just about everyone in pubs. If you were running the stock scattergun and tried to meatshot a Sniper, there was enough time for him, if his ping was low and his reaction was good, to turn and jarate you even if you'd get your next shot in before he could switch to his melee. So the version that made you take mini crits mean you had no downsides if you drank it immediately after being jarated. When they changed it to the damage debuff that you couldn't be one shot by a non direct hit rocket, it was sort of a nerf if the other side had 3 snipers since the jarate and the damage debuff would stack and that meant any chip damage would hurt a lot. So they gave it an all around buff, but made it less useful against an already overpowered weapon...
@@flopaflop420 why wrangler manual aiming sucks and the shield does do little when the sentry is out ranges. The short circuit seems like the more annoying one with how for solider if he doesn’t have a shotgun he can’t fight at all.
@@ImprisionArchieves Found the soldier main who shout at medics at pub for healing the 12 hp scout instead of pocketing him. short circuit is extremely balanced and a good sidegrade in most situations, and in cases where engineers can abuse it's alt fire by the infinite metal supply of the payload usually good coordination and a few flankers can solve the case even easier than flanking regular engineers since the alt fire spamming engies usually have huge tunnelvision on the other hand, the wrangler actually give sentries a 66% damage resistance so a competent engineer can completely negate multiple uberpushes . as a medic/engineer/demo main i can say the wrangler is annoying af
@@PissJohn first off all defensive Scottish resistance or engine main. I was just saying that in a lot of cinarios the short circuit can deny the right to attack with certain sets which can be annoying to fight against.
@@PissJohn also wrangler got nerfed so it can’t survive Uber and one spy during the wrangler messes it up and you rip threw ammo so fast that you can’t keep using wrangler so your more likely just salty at engineers who can actually use the tool effectively, ( I’m also a short circuit engineer so yeah you got that completely wrong )
@@perhapsYoYo and sometimes the squeker has been playing for a year and is better than you, the you enter an existencial crisis of you losing your abilities of old age, your reflexes and your self worth. The he gets vacbanned
The buff the shortstop needs is actually really simple for it’s intended use: a fixed spray pattern. It’s difficult to use at midrange because it’s basically trying to aim with the Beggar’s Bazooka. The shove is given greater use as a defensive tool to KEEP them at midrange
@@CricetoFunni I've played on a server where they merely buffed its reload speed. Made the sounds of the reload not match up but the extra reload speed was nice. However, that shove... why does it exist? Outside of having a low damaging way to mess with friendly players, I don't see much good use for it. Any opportunities where you can shove a player into danger you are better off just shooting them... or even using the Force-A-Nature instead. The weapon plays best at ranges where the shove isn't useful.
@@CricetoFunnisame thing i did had as an idea for my Weapon Rebalance ideas, basically, the minimum fall-off becomes 50% to 75% so Also, the hidden stat of 33% less maximum Ramp-up (175% to 150%) would be removed, so it can be better close range.
As someone who uses the back scatter on scout (strange and has over 500 kills), being patient is your friend with all of the bad scout primaries. Just like a spy, the bad primaries require you to wait for the right time to strike, and when they show up, that's when you become terrifying. A good example of this is the shortstop against a fleeing heavy: they will be to busy retreating to a medkit, dispenser, or use their sandvich to notice you and the shortstop can delete this tank in about a second.
Back scatter is so underrated. You basically just treat it like a spectrum, from shortstop to stock to back scatter. It peaks at close range and is much easier to drop snipers and meds with.
If you do well with the Back scatter its not because the weapon is viable its because you’re a competent scout but no matter how well you do with the back scatter im sorry to say you’d do better with stock
@@jynxvxa8342 I know I would do better with stock. I use it because I enjoy it as a nice challenge. It’s like beating FNF on hard instead of normal: it’s fun and rewarding to do well with the harder setting.
A potential fix for this weapon to make it's mid range role actually... Work... Is to make the bullets have lowered dropoff. That way you can be mid range but deal close to max damage, and this can be viable while not overpowered.
Problem is that it's gonna be a bit hard to balance. You do NOT want the shortstop to deal as much damage as a close range scatter gun. If it's strong enough to be noticeable on the ennemi's part the stat would have to be lowered.
@@vyor8837 Yeah come to think of it that would be pretty strong. While reduced damage falloff is interesting for someone like Scout whose Shortstop isn't too bad it could potentially be OP. Maybe just reduced falloff. Also give it a decent secondary ability that isn't mostly useless like Maybe reduce secondary cooldown on kill.
This weapon falls in one of theew categories 1: they're new and dont know that the stock is actually better 2:they have a strange varient 3: they're actually really good with this
I love using the shortstop, and I wouldn’t say it’s too bad at close range. If you’re able to hit all the shots, the DPS makes it a great option. I’d say it’s a pretty decent side grade.
Slight correction: The Shortstop has precisely 80% of the scattergun's damage. At point blank, it deals less damage than excpected because it has the default 50% ramp-up instead of the scatterguns' increased 75% (probably due to historically being a pistol-type weapon). This decreases its max damage to 80% × (150% ÷ 175%) = ~68.57% of the scattergun's. So point blank, this gun does deal roughly 30% less damage, but that's point blank. Otherwise, it's a clean 20%.
i feel like there should be a stat for some weapons where they suffer less fall-off. it'd make some very confused weapons fit into their niche a bit better. like say, the enforcer has the niche of piercing damage resistances, but none of it matters since it does nothing at long range, and at close range, you can just backstab. if they changed the enforcer to have this reduced falloff stat instead of that weird increased damage while disguised, it'd actually be good in different situations than the other revolvers. it's partially the same thing with the shortstop. the shortstop deals a little more damage at longer ranges because of the tighter spread, but with the falloff, it's mostly the difference between doing 30 damage and 10. it's a lot weaker in close range, and only a little better at mid-long range, so what if they made it stronger at mid-long range with my proposed reduced falloff stat? i think it'd actually be good for once
@@maxhadanidea it does not. each bullet simply does double damage, and there are only 4 pellets per shot instead of 10. it may seem like it has reduced fall-off compared to the other scatterguns, but it's not a stat of the weapon, as the damage fall-off values are still the same for the shortstop. what i'm saying is that the shortstop should have the damage fall-off value changed so it's actually effective at a mid range, instead of just okayish at mid range
I found a very interesting use for the shove - pushing enemy spies away when they're about to backstab someone. Doesn't happen often, but i can confirm i had the chance to do that twice, if the damage isnt gonna stop him in time from backstabbing your medic, it's always better to push him away and have him backstab your scout instead.
if you're at the range to push him away, considering it takes half a second for the shove to push the spy away, bodyblocking is going to be more effective and consistent. Don't search for a reason to use the shove, it's BAD
@@gamingmaster6377 You won't always be in a position to body block him, especially if you're coming from the side while the spy is Right at your medic. I'm not saying it excuses the weapon, but at least it's a use for an otherwise useless ability
I gots an idea for it tell me what you think. It should fire 5 shots that deal 12 damage so 60 a shot, and if right mouse it fires all the shots but at a 35%less damage so it adds up to a 160 damage burst . But the things spread is wider than stock and falls off sooner. So its a high damage burst weapon that reloads fast but at anything other than close to close-mid range it worse than stock.
@@pissthrower4477 TL;DR at the end. I don’t personally like this weapon change because it does 60 damage when the short stop does 70 damage and still isn’t very good. 60 damage is not only less than the current version, but is literally less damage than most melee weapons (on other classes). However dealing 160 damage for the alt-fire with the only needs being to get close and press the right mouse button, seems like it would be incredibly annoying. That would one-shot 5 out of 9 classes and leave 3 of the other classes scrambling with 40-15 health. And considering scout can so easily get close to someone due to his speed, this might be arguably just as annoying as a stock + crit a cola combo. So imagine getting minicrits and then insta-killing 8 out of 9 classes with this changed shortstop and crit a cola, because 160 times 135% (minicrit damage) makes for 216 damage. That would literally instantly decimate a lv. 3 building if they took crit/minicrit damage. TL;DR This version of the shot stop would have a worse version of the current primary fire, but would have an overpowered alt-fire.
@@pissthrower4477 Don’t feel discouraged to make weapon concepts though since not only is it fun, but you get better at making balanced concepts the more you learn about how to balance items.
the shortstop is perfect for the community mode vs saxton hale, especially on bigger maps like reservoir. the tighter spread lets you stay far away from the hale while still managing to do insane damage. hell, even the shove can be useful against a vagineer who just raged and is going for your medic, or on skyhigh resort which you can use the shove to push a hale off the map or, if you're lucky, into a train. the shove mechanic can actually be better than airblast because airblast gives the hale free rage, while the shove does not
I think the alt fire should be that you fire all remaining rounds in the gun but has increased bullet spread, making it an emergency close range panic button.
i feel like when talking about the shortstop people take the shove way too seriously like sure it's useless but i feel like it's meant more as a joke than anything like one of the devs found the animation somewhere and put it in as a meme
It's not bad, but you should use stock in almost every situation. And while Force-a-Nature is still some-what good, because it has good burst to compensate lower dps, Shortstop is just better in medium range. Like, why would you use Scout over Demo/Soldier in mid-range combat?
Funny thing is that the shortstop is scouts best way to kill tanks in mvm due to the fact it reloads his entire kit at once allowing you just spam the tank insanely fast.
I think the shove is more of a push to push them away to encourage scouts to be more mid range, i think valve just mis-interpreted and called it a shove, the reason why the shove is weak is because its also to get away faster into mid-range
it's really more useful in MvM than he lets on... if you play with misc randoms. I've saved more games than I care to count by pitting the bomb bot with the shove, or just bodyblocking/jostling bots around with ti.
The Scorch Shot: Only aim at your feet The Ubersaw: Play on no random crit server The Wrangler: Constantly hold M1 + M2 and *really* don’t try to aim too well Jarate: Aim much higher than you plan to
I think the shove exists for one reason: Getting out of other scouts advantage range and get the fight back into your advantage range, by way of running in a little, throwing the scouts away, and running backwards until they regain their legs.
Except the time you spend shoving is time spent _not_ shooting or reloading and _not_ running away normally (and instead being relatively predictable by getting point-blank to land the shove). You'll either die from the start-up of the shove or the endlag of the shove, even if you land it. so ye valve pls fix
The Scout will also be out of your shove range most likely since being out of shove range and shooting still does a good amount of damage. And there is nothing stopping the Scout from just firing at you when you push him away, most likely dealing more damage then when you just moved out of its effect range. Plus, the bats might be actually useful with this weapon since it will deal more damage than a point blank Shortstop shot so you can just hit him to scare him away into Shortstop range and dealing a good amount of damage to finish the Scout.
The shape of the spread being unsymmetrical really hurts it. If you overshoot, you deal much less damage because its unevenly spread. It should really be changed to a cross.
I actually like the shortstop. Its lower spread and fast firing speed allow for excellent burst damage, as long as you can hit your shots. Even if it’s not as good as it used to be, it’s very useful, so long as you just ignore the shove, since the shove is literally useless. Shortstop, criti-cola, and atomizer is my go-to loadout when I’m in the mood for it. The shortstop and criti-cola combo allows for good, consistent damage, because the mini-crits multiply your damage by two, so it deals much more damage. It’s not perfect, and it certainly has its flaws, but it’s a lot of fun. And the shove has great meme-potential.
The Shortstop is my favorite Scout primary, and I _really_ miss when it used to give you better healing. That plus the Candy Cane -- when grenades had a chance to _not_ one-shot you -- was a lot of fun. Just make Candy Cane +20% explosive vulnerability instead of +25%, return Shortstop to its former self, maybe separate its ammo pool from the pistols, and I'd be happy with it. Kind of weird you didn't mention that last part about the ammo, by the way. Oh well ツ Edit: Nevermind, that ammo thing is no longer true. Somehow missed that from 2015.
@@CongaYT was it though? Was it really? I just remember it being frustrating because it meant I couldn't use pistols with it unless I wanted to constantly be put of ammo
The Shortstop actually is decent with the Crit-A-Cola. No damage falloff and a tight spread make it decent at mid range combat, and it means the Shortstop has high close range damage
You can almost 4-shot a full health Heavy, dealing +288 damage. If he’s taken one bullet, you’re set to kill him. Or if not, one or two pistol shots should do it. The Shortstop is definitely one of my top choices.
Really, all it needs is some kind of buff to health. As you said, it encourages engaging in extended fights, but Scout doesn't have the hp pool to do that. So, a buff to max heath, or gain like in the old version, would greatly improve scouts viability in a sustained fight.
@@radonnawisdom6723 I mean, Sandman right now has the problem of low reward but high punishment. I think that it deserves to have it's -15 health be removed.
Love how changing the Shortstop to secondary will immediately make jt sound good. Exchanging a faster automatic pistol for a burst shot secondary is a welcome one, especially when paired with the Scattergun.
it’s literally a second pistol looks like a pistol, fires like a pistol (except with 4 barrels), supposed to use in mid-long range (not close range) might as well make it an actual pistol
This weapon isnt even bad, giving scout more effective range to pester people with and more theoretical dps in exchange for lower margin of error and less effectiveness at ambushing people at close range. It also has more synergy with your pistols, similarly to the force o nature. It's main weakness is it's lack od mobility and survivability, which scout can make up for with other weapons. It's a viable option imo.
Had the captions on while watching this video on mute, but I didn’t realize the captions were in Vietnamese for a bit, so during the beginning of the video I thought you were having a stroke
Glad you're back on the weapons you can actually give advice for. I'm going to go use the crit-a-cola with the shortstop and not feel bad about it at all.
I think this weapon is honestly misunderstood. The weapon gives you less damage, but let's you fight at mid range. This doesn't seem great at first, until you realize you have 125 health and high mobility. Range is strong for two reasons, firstly because you outperform other scouts in this range, and secondly because projectiles have travel time, and mid range let's you dodge significantly better than at close range. You move from having to preemptively dodge to being able to actively dodge. Lastly, the push is not a mechanic you use during a fight, ever. The push is essentially just for environmental kills and separating medics, but you're the fastest class in the game. Use your mobility to get into situations where thats applicable. I dont really like this weapon, but I've seen people use these specific perks to easily outweigh the downsides. I was honestly kinda surprised this was even considered a bad weapon
@@missiontimpossible9994 I get that sorta, but the weapon is objectively better off with it. I'm not saying it's great, but at worst you don't use it, at best you use it in situational cases. It doesn't make the weapon worse for having it
I think it's another one of these weapons that i see a lot in TF2 that are touted as being crap but shine in skilled hands. like the Candycane, Direct Hit, etc. I agree with you i think it's a fine weapon, though i do still feel the shove isn't so great.
It's my favorite Scout primary just because it lets me stay in fights for practically forever. Yes, it has difficulties securing kills, but 4 shots that reload all at once. Yes, the stock scattergun has 2 more shots before it reloads, but when you reload it you either have to fall back or swap for one of your other weapons. Shortstop? Shortstop, you duck around a corner and slap 4 new shells in and pop back around and continue peppering the enemy team. I've literally run out of reserve ammo while taking *no* damage in a 1v4 situation, where the opponents kept on getting chunked low enough that they'd run back to spawn while I just dodged everything they threw at me. No other Scattergun could've done that.
the shove would be leagues better if it actually had the same range as the airblast, and more force, but personally i don't care since its the ultimate warmup weapon
Rebalance idea: The shove is replaced with a sort of forcehofhnature shot where you fire your clip all at once with bigger spread. Pellets amount depends on how many shots are left in the clip and it shots enemies back like the shove.
I’d have to disagree with the notion that the shortstop punishes you in literally any regard. The lower damage is made up for by the firing speed, and the firing speed and reloading its entire clip at once means you’ll be pumping out more shots. I’m not even that good at the game and I’ve topscored the last ~12 games I’ve played using the whole special delivery set. The shortstop is actually how I got my first 5ks way back.
While I think that the downsides can be over exaggerated, I don’t agree with the no punish notion, as they said the tighter spread gives you less margin for error, you can’t hit your shots as much, it’s obviously not meant for you to get close, which, if you play stock scout for an extended period of time, is hard to resist the urge to get in, get a kill and get out, and having what is effectively a burst pistol in your primary slot makes it much harder to play aggressively as you can’t get too close, making it much easier for enemies to push into you, so it’s a fine weapon, but not without punishment for playing as the ‘typical scout’
@@sleeby526 I'd still have to disagree that the tighter spread is a punishment. I use the Shortstop regularly now and the tight spread's ability to out-range everything is incredibly powerful. Most classes are specialized around mid-range, and all are capable at it, and the Shortstop allows you to keep that ability, with the additional niche of even longer ranges, and it comes up not just more than you'd expect, but in my experience, almost every interaction is benefitted by the range. The shortstop doesn't punish people by having a tighter spread, it just forgives people less. It's like saying that you shouldn't be punished for missing your shots, and that's what Engineer's in the game for.
Something else to note about this gun: it rolls for random crits the same way rapid-fire weapons like the minigun, flamethrower, SMG, and pistol do. So if you're playing on a random crit server and you're lucky enough to receive Gaben's blessing, you don't just get one critical shot. You get however many you can crank off in two seconds. On a scout primary that has a 40% increased fire rate, reloads quickly, and has a four shot clip. Also if you're running it in MvM with upgraded damage, clip size, fire rate, and crit canteens, you can do absolutely broken amounts of damage to the tank.
it’s not necessarily weaker, just made for different things FaN is used for close range to delete an enemy, while shortstop is used for skirmishes at medium ranges for sustained damage.
In MVM, the shove can also push giant bomb Scouts away from the bomb hole enough to cancel the deployment animation, so you can stunlock them there since robots don't attack while deploying. This doesn't work on giant Heavies since they have knockback resistance, or if some jackass on your team bodyblocks the knockback...
For buffing the thing, I’d decrease the reload speed, and instead of just flat increasing the damage, I say increase the damage slightly on every consecutive shot. This would make it even more satisfying to quickly hit all your shots on an enemy Oh and bring back the increased healing
I like the idea of increasing the damage after every consecutive shot, I've never heard that idea. I also agree that 20% less damage is way too steep, it should definitely be 15%-10%. The healing mechanique was fun as hell but kinda broken, id say remove the shove and replace it with a weaker version of the healing machanique. If valve did this the shortstop would go from a niche to an actual viable choice next to stock.
@@MrH0m30wner I agree, but I don’t really see a point in removing the shove as it’s pretty much useless and doesn’t effect serious play, it shouldn’t be removed because of how good it is for goofin off
My fav. weapon is the shortstop! -Why? Here is why: -load the entire clip once: not like the FaN or the Soda Popper=doesn't take away 4 ammo if you fire one. So that is why its great with the auto reload. -the push isn't great, but usable. -it's a sniper rifle wanna be -the shove is funny! Like a meme and funny too.
I just want to say you have good taste in background music in every video Edit: also I miss the healing bonus from Shortstop. I dont play much TF2 anymore, but still forget it got changed
So, I was in turbine, right? Demo was in the vents, grenades were coming down on the sentry in the intel room. I snuck up behind him and shoved him down. I got to get one last good look at his eyes as he whipped around to face me before he fell. He did not survive. My mind has rejected the idea of the shove mechanic being bad ever since.
Imagine if you could dual wield this with a secondary weapon. That would be a huge buff. It would have to be reworked a lot, but I think it would be way more interesting.
In MvM, you can basically turn it into a Tomislav that does a hundred damage per shot, and you get to reset the bomb if you're lucky. That's why MvM is the best game mode. Even the stupid weapons can be useful there.
The item servers were down and I couldn't change my loadout so I was stuck playing Shortstop, Winger, and Sun on a Stick for a good hour on harvest. The winger is actually amazing with the shortstop, don't know what you're talking about.
I have the only strange unusual Shortstop in the game, currently sitting at 7661 kills. Basically, I'm really passionate about the Shortstop, so here's the nitpick of all nitpicks: 1:30 The shove isn't the primary fire. I don't understand the point you're trying to make with this, because the Force-A-Nature knockback is often a hinderance, meanwhile the shove is completely optional. 1:44 & 2:55 & 4:44 & 5:08 & 14:26 Operator error doesn't equate to an imbalanced weapon. 1:54 & 8:01 The Shortstop is easily the best Scout primary for MvM because the clip size upgrades are more impactful (2 per) and the reload is full-clip. Also, the shove can perpetually stun any robot trying to capture the bomb while you wait for a teammate or pepper it yourself. 2:20 & 6:50 & 12:31 & 13:03 & 13:40 the base damage is lower, but the firing speed makes up for it. That's like saying "the minigun has way lower damage than the Scattergun" because it technically has a base damage (with all pellets connecting) of ~30. 2:30 This clip doesn't illustrate the point well. Of course you won't be killing things at 16 damage a shot. You need to connect your pellets (which CAN be done at this range). 3:03 That's a mantreads soldier. I know the shove doesn't break any records in terms of knockback but that's an inaccurate display. 3:21 The DPS does come into play. It will always come into play, by design, if you hit your shots. I have respect for you but you're always missing in the clips where you try to show how "bad" the damage is. (this happens at 3:27) 3:36 the tighter spread is a GREAT upside. Longer range means more cover, height advantages, fewer enemy pellets connecting, better view of incoming threats while fighting, and starting fights sooner. It comes up all the time. 4:00 It almost sounds like you're saying you HAVE to be using the mid-range advantage at all times. You don't. The shortstop functions perfectly well in close range, it just has more ability outside it. 4:20 It's not punishing you by being less of a crutch. No matter what weapon you're using, hitting shots center mass is how you deal good damage. This is another reason why the spread is such an upside. Aiming slightly off center mass can still have all the pellets connect, which is a way better upside in my opinon than being able to hit 3 low-damage pellets as a reward for missing. I'm not saying the Scattergun is a crutch at all; that's ridiculous. I'm just saying the Shortstop is better and better optimized by more skillful play. 4:30 Half the roster in half the time. That's the Shortstop way. It's a great upside which no, does not ask a lot of you. All it costs is hitting your shots, and it comes up all the time. Because it's half the feckin roster. 4:51 Scattergun scouts are forced to rush forward to match the damage of the Shortstop. *That's* what will make you take more damage than you're putting out. 5:27 How exactly does adding more range "add weaknesses?" 5:32 No, it's not. It's for doing everything every other primary does, but with more optional range. 6:34 I think the shove's just on there because the weapon model is small enough to justify having your hands free enough to shove. That's it. I've had some great success shoving overhealed heavies into death pits though. 8:09 & 12:45 The fact that it doesn't require anything particular to boost its ability should really say something. 9:45 I like to switch up how I play with the Shortstop, and I have found good times to use basically every Scout weapon, EXCEPT for the Crit-a-Cola. It's bad. The whole benefit of staying away from enemies is negated by taking mini-crits, and the damage boost does less because the base damage is lower. 11:15 *WITH* a friendly pyro helping you, the SoaS is REALLY good. I've gone godlike with it. 13:20 Why get rid of the shove? If you're not gonna give it any other secondary fire, this is just a nerf to an already """""bad""""" weapon. 14:08 You can tell it was a good weapon all along because you could festivize it.
This weapon is fine, albeit its weaknesses are stronger than they should be. I find this video to be the weakest one in the “Bad Weapon Academy” series, because this weapon is not deserving of being called bad whatsoever. Flawed, sure. Weak, there’s some argument to be made for it. But bad? Nope. I disagree.
@@h8thegr8 Its not even weak, its literally better than stock if you can aim. You can blow up a soldier from full to zero before a stock rocket can even get to you in time. Enemy scouts die in less than a second and don't ever get a chance to get 2 shots off on you if you see each other at the same time, making it impossible to lose scout 1v1s if you hit your shots. It does way more damage than stock at mid range, and also does more relevant dps in close range given that you burst targets down to 0 health before the overall effective dps of the scattergun matters. The shove is a free uber denial that they just decided to gift in addition to the rest of the perks, and has other various situational uses such as forcing ubered targets off of capture points; particularly good on last pushes on 5cp where you are cheese capping.
I love these videos starts with a counterclaim (the footage of good use of the weapon in question) then a rebuttal (showing that the weapon is still trash) and the rest of the video is cold, hard stats for the watcher to analyze themselves
I think the clip is perfectly fine because of the full reload, I find myself reloading as scout with the stock A LOT so two less shots is justifiable for me to reload them all at once
@@breadiztasty It's such a pointless addition I honestly don't blame you for not realising it was there. I _think_ it was added because the tauntkill grants more uber when it lands, but even then I just press it by accident while retreating, and get annihilated by the entire enemy team.
What would be dope is if they added more bullets and removed the shove mechanic. They could then replace the shove with a neat mechanic allowing you to shoot all 4 bullets.
I really think the Shortstop deserves a second look, it seriously isn't that bad if you use it defensively/as a support weapon, combine it with mad milk and you and your teammates just won't die. Meanwhile, enemies will go running for a healthpack or locker. Think about why it's called the Shortstop, it's a *defensive* weapon.
![[TF2] Bad Weapon Academy: Manmelter](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/QB-GxmkD1JI/mqdefault.jpg)
![[TF2] Bad Weapon Academy: Manmelter](/img/tr.png)
The shove is canonically accurate. Imagine if the heavy had a shove. Or soldier. You'd be sent flying. But scout's "tiny baby arms" can't make it happen.
I mean his melee damage with stock is kind of a joke, what makes people think a push from him would do?
@@Mega_idk Given Scout's weight, pushing a Heavy with a 150 kg minigun 2 feet in the air is a pretty strong feat. Scout with his in-game melee damage is just him flailing quick swings with one arm. In the Meet the Medic trailer, he can one shot a Soldier with it. In-game, if he uses two arms he will send the person flying (taunt kill). This is a canon feat since he can kill a bear with a single swing and even take the full recoil of the Force-A-Nature that sends him up in the air.
Scout can literally shove the 400 pound Heavy with the 300 pound Minigun quite some distance, if anything Scout is ridiculously strong for his weight and size. Not to mention, Scout can swing a bat with one hand for his melee without being affected by the vibrations and recoil from striking something solid with said bat. It's likely that Scout doesn't swing the bat full force in his regular melee attack, as he can be seen killing a bear with a single one handed blow when properly putting muscle into it. And that's not taking into consideration that he can fling grown men 50 or so meters into the air when swinging the bat with both hands
@@theshermantanker7043 Don't even start about his defense. The guy can survive getting ALL the blood in his body removed after getting punched by a guy who can lift a bear larger than a plane.
these 2 need a shove mechanic.
Heavy does a small "wario charge"
Soldier uses a shild to throw you alway
The little "shove" is just a "nyeh". Not even a "hargh" like a push in a fight, much less a shove, its just a nudge. Like a little boy teasing his crush or something. Smh my head.
I agree
Himiko's favorite primary
I thought it would be at least fun to use around cliffs but it’s impossible to get anything done.
Its called shove not push, also “shake my head my head” XD
@@shuckid8290 man doesn't have two heads smh my head
It's best at psychological warfare, as killing someone with a shove will cause them to uninstall.
I once died to a *_random crit shove_* . That was over 8 months ago and I haven't touched the game since
@DragonfishJames shove deals 1 damage, i had 3 health left and was running to a health pack, i got shoved and died. and the scout started freaking out about the random crit shove.
@@LeoYoshi54321 A *fucking what*
@DragonfishJames it is the ultimate shame, i can not play TF2 again
Why is the face in your profile picture fit so well with what you’re saying.
the main strategy with the shortstop is to fool your enemy into thinking you're holding the pistol
lol
Strangely applicable.
I would rather hold the pistol.
@Catfish then that would be kinda broken because now u cover all ranges and do more damage then a pistol with more ammo if it was a secondary,
That would be sick as hell tho!
@Catfish I would say a bit less dmg and a tiny slower fire rate
"Scout I respect the hustle, you'll get somebody I promise." *LITERALLY 2 FUCKING SECONDS LATER*
To be fair he did promise
I guess sniper really is down under after all!
"LONG LIVE THE KING..."
He is polite.
he was one of the RNGods in disguise
Give it the "Fires a Fixed Shot Pattern" like the Panic Attack, keep the reload gimmick, include one more pellet to make a cross pattern/amp up the damage slightly, and take off the ridiculous shove and increased pushback. Now you have a mid-range weapon people will use.
id keep the shove and make it a bit more ranged and powerful for the memes lol
leave the shove in, it doesn't harm the scout and you can technically combo the shove with the shortstop shots. if he's gonna be entering melee range for it at least let it be rewarding
I feel like giving it a fixed shot pattern would make it harder to do more damage at mid-range, since fixed shot patterns (usually) have the spread built in, making some of your pellets impossible to ever hit (at mid-range), while without the fixed shot pattern, you can get lucky and hit with all your pellets. I've never played the game with a fixed shot pattern on the shortstop, so I don't actually know if what I said would be the case for that weapon in particular, but from what I know, it probably would be.
I'd say that the only change it could really use to be better, but still balanced, would be to give it the same max ramp-up as all the other scatterguns, so it does 175% damage at close range instead of 150%. Then, it would do 21-84 damage at close range, instead of 18-72, which is still less than the stock's 11-105, but if you're good at aiming it, it should be the superior weapon, since you'll hit with more of the pellets.
If they did what you're suggesting, it would be almost a straight upgrade to stock. It would have the same theoretical max damage as stock (except for meatshots, which would deal 18-90 damage, compared to stock's 11-105), reload more efficiently, have more consistent damage, and the pellets would be easier to hit with, in exchange for holding 33% less ammo.
@@clunk42 big disagree. you can get unlucky with the spread and miss everything, so fixed pattern is better. not to mention that shortstop already has a tighter spread so it works out.
make the push force really long range and really strong force and it would be ok
The shortstop is the personification of "he is a little confused but he got the spirit"
I gots an idea for it tell me what you think.
It should fire 5 pellets that deal 12 damage so 60 damage a shot .and if right mouse it fires all the shots but at a 35%less damage so it adds up to a 160 damage burst .
But the things spread is wider than stock and falls off sooner.
So its a high damage burst weapon that reloads fast but at anything other than close to close-mid range it worse than stock.
Also m1 fires faster so its not super weak at 60 damage a shot.
@@pissthrower4477 the short stop is supposed to be better at mid-long range lol
@@zaroio2533 ya its a different way of looking at it.
It does have short in the name.
Maybe it could easily stop people at shot range.
@@pissthrower4477 Scout named it the Shortstop after the thing that one chick with the bucket of chicken called him mid-intercourse, except that he didn't know what it meant
@@pissthrower4477 It doesn't need changing to make it better, its arguably better than his stock because of the instant reload with little downsides. The damage doesn't fall off as much as you'd figure, from my experience using it.
The short stop is a secondary trying to be a primary
I wish the shortstop had a faster firing speed by just a little
In a nutshell, yes
@Poe Soul that would create the stop light combo; force o, nature, shortstop, sandman
@Poe Soul It would be a bit op, because not only would you have the Scattergun, amongst the strongest weapons in the game, now you have a mid to long range mini-shotgun-thing, allowing you to finishing off targets outside your Scattergun range
Oh my god, you're so right.
Anyone else remember that period where value just kept buffing the crit-a-cola until eventually it was +mini-crits+speed boost, all for only a small enough damage taken debuff that you couldn't even be one-shot by a rocket
valve weapon balances are honestly absolutely baffaling like "theres this laser pistol that does jack shit, guess we gotta nerf it to the 7th circle of hell, also lets buff the scorch shot again, thats a good idea"
@@gangstascout3593 At least it's not as bad as Blizzard's balancing, those guys could give mercy a tool to instantly and permanently heal all teammates with no penalties and think it's balanced.
There was a time when if you got jarated, it would last so long that you could drink the crit-a-cola (which made you take mini crits at this time), run for the entire duration of the drink and shoot people, and still be affected by the debuff. And at this time jarate was used by just about everyone in pubs. If you were running the stock scattergun and tried to meatshot a Sniper, there was enough time for him, if his ping was low and his reaction was good, to turn and jarate you even if you'd get your next shot in before he could switch to his melee. So the version that made you take mini crits mean you had no downsides if you drank it immediately after being jarated. When they changed it to the damage debuff that you couldn't be one shot by a non direct hit rocket, it was sort of a nerf if the other side had 3 snipers since the jarate and the damage debuff would stack and that meant any chip damage would hurt a lot. So they gave it an all around buff, but made it less useful against an already overpowered weapon...
My favorite game developer
Value
@@Artician*battle mercy flashbacks*
I wouldn’t mind an “Annoying weapon academy” where we try to find ways of not being obnoxious with weapons generally used to piss people off lol
Phlogistinator, Scorch Shot, and Wrangler: *it's free real estate!*
@@flopaflop420 why wrangler manual aiming sucks and the shield does do little when the sentry is out ranges. The short circuit seems like the more annoying one with how for solider if he doesn’t have a shotgun he can’t fight at all.
@@ImprisionArchieves Found the soldier main who shout at medics at pub for healing the 12 hp scout instead of pocketing him. short circuit is extremely balanced and a good sidegrade in most situations, and in cases where engineers can abuse it's alt fire by the infinite metal supply of the payload usually good coordination and a few flankers can solve the case even easier than flanking regular engineers since the alt fire spamming engies usually have huge tunnelvision
on the other hand, the wrangler actually give sentries a 66% damage resistance so a competent engineer can completely negate multiple uberpushes . as a medic/engineer/demo main i can say the wrangler is annoying af
@@PissJohn first off all defensive Scottish resistance or engine main. I was just saying that in a lot of cinarios the short circuit can deny the right to attack with certain sets which can be annoying to fight against.
@@PissJohn also wrangler got nerfed so it can’t survive Uber and one spy during the wrangler messes it up and you rip threw ammo so fast that you can’t keep using wrangler so your more likely just salty at engineers who can actually use the tool effectively, ( I’m also a short circuit engineer so yeah you got that completely wrong )
3:02
"...Which pushes enemies back a small amount."
He said as he shoved a Soldier with Mantreads.
lmao
good eyes
Damn you’re right
Still a small amount without them, to be fair
I like how despite being a 14 year old game we all still run into 8 year olds using mics
I'm honestly glad every time i hear an annoying squeaker, new people are coming to the game to keep it alive
@@dangergun2346 Do I wanna hear squeakers? No. Do I appreciate that squeakers are helping keep the game alive? Yes.
@@PhoenixStriker1 sometimes hearing squeakers are funny, sometimes it isnt
@@perhapsYoYo and sometimes the squeker has been playing for a year and is better than you, the you enter an existencial crisis of you losing your abilities of old age, your reflexes and your self worth. The he gets vacbanned
@@catrielmarignaclionti4518 worth it
I only use the shortstop to shove big bots into my teammates to get them killed in MvM
Imma message in case this comment blows up, but also true
I use the shortstop to snipe sentries .-.
I love you and I hate you.
you ask for it - make a post on tacobot.tf -
to get the bots killed or the teammates
The buff the shortstop needs is actually really simple for it’s intended use: a fixed spray pattern. It’s difficult to use at midrange because it’s basically trying to aim with the Beggar’s Bazooka. The shove is given greater use as a defensive tool to KEEP them at midrange
@@CricetoFunni Yes, it’s designed to be mid range but the damage fall off is still the same.
@@CricetoFunni
+ Reduced damage falloff
+ Fixed shot pattern
@@CricetoFunni I've played on a server where they merely buffed its reload speed. Made the sounds of the reload not match up but the extra reload speed was nice.
However, that shove... why does it exist? Outside of having a low damaging way to mess with friendly players, I don't see much good use for it. Any opportunities where you can shove a player into danger you are better off just shooting them... or even using the Force-A-Nature instead. The weapon plays best at ranges where the shove isn't useful.
@@CricetoFunnisame thing i did had as an idea for my Weapon Rebalance ideas, basically, the minimum fall-off becomes 50% to 75% so
Also, the hidden stat of 33% less maximum Ramp-up (175% to 150%) would be removed, so it can be better close range.
@@Techhunter_Talonhonestly the Shove should get an more Airblast-like air strafe reduction so, like, not as bad as Airblast's one but still.
3:40 is nobody going to talk about the fact he probably got one of the world's only non-crit fan of war kills ever recorded
yes.
I don't need sleep. I need Bad Weapon Academy.
for me it's 10:30 am
same
Yes. It helps me survive the meetings
Same here
As someone who uses the back scatter on scout (strange and has over 500 kills), being patient is your friend with all of the bad scout primaries. Just like a spy, the bad primaries require you to wait for the right time to strike, and when they show up, that's when you become terrifying. A good example of this is the shortstop against a fleeing heavy: they will be to busy retreating to a medkit, dispenser, or use their sandvich to notice you and the shortstop can delete this tank in about a second.
Back scatter is so underrated. You basically just treat it like a spectrum, from shortstop to stock to back scatter. It peaks at close range and is much easier to drop snipers and meds with.
From my experience, a Syringe Gun can do the same thing if you're a crack shot.
@@TheKing-qz9wd Guess what Medic primary I use.
If you do well with the Back scatter its not because the weapon is viable its because you’re a competent scout but no matter how well you do with the back scatter im sorry to say you’d do better with stock
@@jynxvxa8342 I know I would do better with stock. I use it because I enjoy it as a nice challenge. It’s like beating FNF on hard instead of normal: it’s fun and rewarding to do well with the harder setting.
A potential fix for this weapon to make it's mid range role actually... Work... Is to make the bullets have lowered dropoff. That way you can be mid range but deal close to max damage, and this can be viable while not overpowered.
Or just have the pellets have some kind of reverse damage falloff, kind of like the Crossbow. Would make the gun a lot more satisfying to use.
Problem is that it's gonna be a bit hard to balance. You do NOT want the shortstop to deal as much damage as a close range scatter gun. If it's strong enough to be noticeable on the ennemi's part the stat would have to be lowered.
@@bawower474 What if like the other dude said make it do reverse falloff? It does more at arange but less at CQC.
@@mariustan9275 that would be overpowered.
@@vyor8837 Yeah come to think of it that would be pretty strong. While reduced damage falloff is interesting for someone like Scout whose Shortstop isn't too bad it could potentially be OP. Maybe just reduced falloff. Also give it a decent secondary ability that isn't mostly useless like Maybe reduce secondary cooldown on kill.
This weapon falls in one of theew categories
1: they're new and dont know that the stock is actually better
2:they have a strange varient
3: they're actually really good with this
I'm number 3.
Mostly because I treat it like I would the direct hit at range.
My option- if theres a bunch of pyros I want to just backpedal
@@rickjenkins5719 use a pistol for that
When I started playing TF2, I grabbed every unlock, assuming that if the game has weapons purchasable by real money, it must be P2W.
Pretty much every bad weapon falls in those categories
I love using the shortstop, and I wouldn’t say it’s too bad at close range. If you’re able to hit all the shots, the DPS makes it a great option. I’d say it’s a pretty decent side grade.
Thats what I’m sayin
The first BWA where you can already festivize it
brass beast
The second one
God damn it almost 400 people forgot the brass beast
@@techedbirb6663 lol
@@techedbirb6663 666 now
I can die happy knowing Fish talked about my favorite scout primary
Dont worry he’ll talk about the bat saber soon
@@bajangaco4019 NOO
@@cinemalazare4850 you owe me 1000$ if he does
@@bajangaco4019 lol
@@cinemalazare4850 better start saving
Slight correction:
The Shortstop has precisely 80% of the scattergun's damage. At point blank, it deals less damage than excpected because it has the default 50% ramp-up instead of the scatterguns' increased 75% (probably due to historically being a pistol-type weapon). This decreases its max damage to 80% × (150% ÷ 175%) = ~68.57% of the scattergun's. So point blank, this gun does deal roughly 30% less damage, but that's point blank. Otherwise, it's a clean 20%.
bojler eladó
The hard math.
@@TheKing-qz9wd the hard meth
@@rakstar343 call walter white
I think that's the same man who has found the damage calculation of the Equalizer
i feel like there should be a stat for some weapons where they suffer less fall-off. it'd make some very confused weapons fit into their niche a bit better. like say, the enforcer has the niche of piercing damage resistances, but none of it matters since it does nothing at long range, and at close range, you can just backstab. if they changed the enforcer to have this reduced falloff stat instead of that weird increased damage while disguised, it'd actually be good in different situations than the other revolvers. it's partially the same thing with the shortstop. the shortstop deals a little more damage at longer ranges because of the tighter spread, but with the falloff, it's mostly the difference between doing 30 damage and 10. it's a lot weaker in close range, and only a little better at mid-long range, so what if they made it stronger at mid-long range with my proposed reduced falloff stat? i think it'd actually be good for once
the shortstop has reversed fall off
@@maxhadanidea it does not. each bullet simply does double damage, and there are only 4 pellets per shot instead of 10. it may seem like it has reduced fall-off compared to the other scatterguns, but it's not a stat of the weapon, as the damage fall-off values are still the same for the shortstop. what i'm saying is that the shortstop should have the damage fall-off value changed so it's actually effective at a mid range, instead of just okayish at mid range
@@stetstetstitstreats oh
I found a very interesting use for the shove - pushing enemy spies away when they're about to backstab someone. Doesn't happen often, but i can confirm i had the chance to do that twice, if the damage isnt gonna stop him in time from backstabbing your medic, it's always better to push him away and have him backstab your scout instead.
if you're at the range to push him away, considering it takes half a second for the shove to push the spy away, bodyblocking is going to be more effective and consistent. Don't search for a reason to use the shove, it's BAD
@@gamingmaster6377 You won't always be in a position to body block him, especially if you're coming from the side while the spy is Right at your medic. I'm not saying it excuses the weapon, but at least it's a use for an otherwise useless ability
Just... shoot him? It's just 2 shots to kill him, he only has 125 health after all...
@@vyor8837 You must be assuming I have good aim, which I don't.
@@lamb6276 I guess that's fair
I’ve always been a fan of the shortstop, it’s rewarding to land your shots with the tighter bullet spread and the increased firing speed
I gots an idea for it tell me what you think.
It should fire 5 shots that deal 12 damage so 60 a shot, and if right mouse it fires all the shots but at a 35%less damage so it adds up to a 160 damage burst .
But the things spread is wider than stock and falls off sooner.
So its a high damage burst weapon that reloads fast but at anything other than close to close-mid range it worse than stock.
@@pissthrower4477
TL;DR at the end.
I don’t personally like this weapon change because it does 60 damage when the short stop does 70 damage and still isn’t very good. 60 damage is not only less than the current version, but is literally less damage than most melee weapons (on other classes).
However dealing 160 damage for the alt-fire with the only needs being to get close and press the right mouse button, seems like it would be incredibly annoying. That would one-shot 5 out of 9 classes and leave 3 of the other classes scrambling with 40-15 health.
And considering scout can so easily get close to someone due to his speed, this might be arguably just as annoying as a stock + crit a cola combo. So imagine getting minicrits and then insta-killing 8 out of 9 classes with this changed shortstop and crit a cola, because 160 times 135% (minicrit damage) makes for 216 damage. That would literally instantly decimate a lv. 3 building if they took crit/minicrit damage.
TL;DR
This version of the shot stop would have a worse version of the current primary fire, but would have an overpowered alt-fire.
@@pissthrower4477
Don’t feel discouraged to make weapon concepts though since not only is it fun, but you get better at making balanced concepts the more you learn about how to balance items.
the shortstop is perfect for the community mode vs saxton hale, especially on bigger maps like reservoir. the tighter spread lets you stay far away from the hale while still managing to do insane damage. hell, even the shove can be useful against a vagineer who just raged and is going for your medic, or on skyhigh resort which you can use the shove to push a hale off the map or, if you're lucky, into a train. the shove mechanic can actually be better than airblast because airblast gives the hale free rage, while the shove does not
“Then let me festivi- oh wait, I can festivize it!”
That’s the most beautiful thing I’ve ever heard
Bad weapon academy: you have a 40% chance of being good in mvm
Casual: Umm... The higher damage is gud but the the slower rev up-
MVM: _T H A T ' S A L O T O F D A M A G E_
@@Breakaway-ic5gj gotta love how the gas passer is both the worst weapon in casual and the best weapon in mvm
@Aquarium Gravel The proper MvM Scout main grindset. Only collect cash and do absolutely nothing else.
@@YourLocalRaider mad milk? Marking robots? Killing snipers? Shooting giants? Who needs all that shwicky scwack
I think the alt fire should be that you fire all remaining rounds in the gun but has increased bullet spread, making it an emergency close range panic button.
That’s definitely way better than the shove in terms of usage.
Or maybe it'd fire 2 shots at the same time with double the spread? Would help give it *some* close range punch and be good as a panic
(if you aim)
Honestly would make a decent amount of sense since presumably it’s firing 1 chamber at a time normally
14:17 imagine being the spy that gets accidentally killed here
Pain
As fun as being the spy disguised as Huntsman Sniper
as is the case with playing spy
Regular spy gameplay
i feel like when talking about the shortstop people take the shove way too seriously
like sure it's useless but i feel like it's meant more as a joke than anything like one of the devs found the animation somewhere and put it in as a meme
exactly, i dont even think it deserves a bad weapon academy
The shortstop is not bad. It just changes your play style. Same thing goes with weapons like The Huntsman, Sydney Sleeper and Market Gardener
@@thepersonman5380 yea i think he needed to use it more, because it really isnt that bad
It's not bad, but you should use stock in almost every situation. And while Force-a-Nature is still some-what good, because it has good burst to compensate lower dps, Shortstop is just better in medium range. Like, why would you use Scout over Demo/Soldier in mid-range combat?
@@ebanatnatria6409 well the scattergun is just waay better than the other ones, the reason i dont use it is because its ugly lol
When I first saw it, I was like: "Wait why isn't that scout using his primary?"
Funny thing is that the shortstop is scouts best way to kill tanks in mvm due to the fact it reloads his entire kit at once allowing you just spam the tank insanely fast.
3:48 This might be the only time in all of TF2 that a scout managed to kill someone with a non-crit fan-o-war hit.
I always thought it was funny that the Shortstop's shove is one of the few things 99.9% of players agree on.
It's pointless, why does it exist?
I think the shove is more of a push to push them away to encourage scouts to be more mid range, i think valve just mis-interpreted and called it a shove, the reason why the shove is weak is because its also to get away faster into mid-range
Because it is hilarious, and meant for bullying people.
it's really more useful in MvM than he lets on... if you play with misc randoms. I've saved more games than I care to count by pitting the bomb bot with the shove, or just bodyblocking/jostling bots around with ti.
Because it's funny
Righteous Bison: Am I a joke to you?
I'm getting bored of bad weapon academy, we need "overpowered weapon academy", which teaches us how to use broken weapons ineffectively
Good thinkin
The Scorch Shot: Only aim at your feet
The Ubersaw: Play on no random crit server
The Wrangler: Constantly hold M1 + M2 and *really* don’t try to aim too well
Jarate: Aim much higher than you plan to
@@dankmachine The Wrangler plan may fail to Aim Assist
Direct Hit: Stand on the other side of a the map and aim where your opponents currently are
@@dankmachine Basher: h i t t h e a i r
I think the shove exists for one reason:
Getting out of other scouts advantage range and get the fight back into your advantage range, by way of running in a little, throwing the scouts away, and running backwards until they regain their legs.
Except the time you spend shoving is time spent _not_ shooting or reloading and _not_ running away normally (and instead being relatively predictable by getting point-blank to land the shove). You'll either die from the start-up of the shove or the endlag of the shove, even if you land it.
so ye valve pls fix
The Scout will also be out of your shove range most likely since being out of shove range and shooting still does a good amount of damage. And there is nothing stopping the Scout from just firing at you when you push him away, most likely dealing more damage then when you just moved out of its effect range. Plus, the bats might be actually useful with this weapon since it will deal more damage than a point blank Shortstop shot so you can just hit him to scare him away into Shortstop range and dealing a good amount of damage to finish the Scout.
Yeah I never said it was good or actually useful, it still sucks, I was just trying to suggest why it might have been added in the first place.
Didn’t he literally just say this thing in the video (except for no specified class) at 6:56?
@@slysamuel5902 i mean scout is the only class it might be half useful to use against
The shape of the spread being unsymmetrical really hurts it. If you overshoot, you deal much less damage because its unevenly spread. It should really be changed to a cross.
You sayin valve needs jesus
I think it would make morse sense as a square, given the barrel pattern.
Imagine this:
Alt fire just unloads all four shots at once, meaning 16 pellets for 192 damage, but it breaks scouts wrist.
I actually like the shortstop. Its lower spread and fast firing speed allow for excellent burst damage, as long as you can hit your shots. Even if it’s not as good as it used to be, it’s very useful, so long as you just ignore the shove, since the shove is literally useless. Shortstop, criti-cola, and atomizer is my go-to loadout when I’m in the mood for it. The shortstop and criti-cola combo allows for good, consistent damage, because the mini-crits multiply your damage by two, so it deals much more damage. It’s not perfect, and it certainly has its flaws, but it’s a lot of fun. And the shove has great meme-potential.
the push mechanic is the only mechanic currently in the game. we are working hard to add more
What
The Shortstop is my favorite Scout primary, and I _really_ miss when it used to give you better healing. That plus the Candy Cane -- when grenades had a chance to _not_ one-shot you -- was a lot of fun. Just make Candy Cane +20% explosive vulnerability instead of +25%, return Shortstop to its former self, maybe separate its ammo pool from the pistols, and I'd be happy with it.
Kind of weird you didn't mention that last part about the ammo, by the way. Oh well ツ
Edit: Nevermind, that ammo thing is no longer true. Somehow missed that from 2015.
Wait, I thought the ammo sharing was removed. Is it still there?
Yeah the candy cane would be way better.
The ammo sharing part was removed sadly, it was a cool gimmick though
@@CongaYT was it though? Was it really?
I just remember it being frustrating because it meant I couldn't use pistols with it unless I wanted to constantly be put of ammo
@@AbadabaForever Crap, y'all are right. Sorry about that -- weird memory hole on my part.
The Shortstop actually is decent with the Crit-A-Cola. No damage falloff and a tight spread make it decent at mid range combat, and it means the Shortstop has high close range damage
The shortstop + crit-a-cola or fan o' war is like the Liberty Launcher + buff banner.
You can almost 4-shot a full health Heavy, dealing +288 damage. If he’s taken one bullet, you’re set to kill him. Or if not, one or two pistol shots should do it. The Shortstop is definitely one of my top choices.
Really, all it needs is some kind of buff to health. As you said, it encourages engaging in extended fights, but Scout doesn't have the hp pool to do that. So, a buff to max heath, or gain like in the old version, would greatly improve scouts viability in a sustained fight.
A health boost would also make the sandman ok again
+10 max health, idk if its enough, it gives 200 overheal atleast
Blackbox Scout?
@@mjsugod1385 That's the pocket pistol.
@@radonnawisdom6723 I mean, Sandman right now has the problem of low reward but high punishment. I think that it deserves to have it's -15 health be removed.
I did a brass beast strat and someone said I wasn’t expecting a fat scout to pull out a brass beast... I enjoy the shotgun strat
It looks and feels like a secondary
and it used to using the same ammo thing.
Love how changing the Shortstop to secondary will immediately make jt sound good.
Exchanging a faster automatic pistol for a burst shot secondary is a welcome one, especially when paired with the Scattergun.
it’s literally a second pistol
looks like a pistol, fires like a pistol (except with 4 barrels), supposed to use in mid-long range (not close range)
might as well make it an actual pistol
This weapon isnt even bad, giving scout more effective range to pester people with and more theoretical dps in exchange for lower margin of error and less effectiveness at ambushing people at close range. It also has more synergy with your pistols, similarly to the force o nature. It's main weakness is it's lack od mobility and survivability, which scout can make up for with other weapons. It's a viable option imo.
Had the captions on while watching this video on mute, but I didn’t realize the captions were in Vietnamese for a bit, so during the beginning of the video I thought you were having a stroke
Glad you're back on the weapons you can actually give advice for. I'm going to go use the crit-a-cola with the shortstop and not feel bad about it at all.
You posted at 1 in the morning for me.
Yet I'll still watch it.
2AM for me when this was posted
i saw this uploaded 10 hours ago at 2am
@@abhijithsenthilnathan9841 "Albert Einstein says time is irrelevant"
-MrBeast, 2019.
I think this weapon is honestly misunderstood. The weapon gives you less damage, but let's you fight at mid range. This doesn't seem great at first, until you realize you have 125 health and high mobility. Range is strong for two reasons, firstly because you outperform other scouts in this range, and secondly because projectiles have travel time, and mid range let's you dodge significantly better than at close range. You move from having to preemptively dodge to being able to actively dodge. Lastly, the push is not a mechanic you use during a fight, ever. The push is essentially just for environmental kills and separating medics, but you're the fastest class in the game. Use your mobility to get into situations where thats applicable.
I dont really like this weapon, but I've seen people use these specific perks to easily outweigh the downsides. I was honestly kinda surprised this was even considered a bad weapon
It really is only considered a bad weapon because of its shove mechanic which is VERY situational.
@@missiontimpossible9994 I get that sorta, but the weapon is objectively better off with it. I'm not saying it's great, but at worst you don't use it, at best you use it in situational cases. It doesn't make the weapon worse for having it
I think it's because valve pissed in our cereal by suggesting that the shove mechanic was worth trading for 20% bonus healing
You are right
I think it's another one of these weapons that i see a lot in TF2 that are touted as being crap but shine in skilled hands. like the Candycane, Direct Hit, etc. I agree with you i think it's a fine weapon, though i do still feel the shove isn't so great.
this video convinced me to get a collectors shortstop and i must say after a year, have not used it outside of mvm. 10/10
It's my favorite Scout primary just because it lets me stay in fights for practically forever. Yes, it has difficulties securing kills, but 4 shots that reload all at once. Yes, the stock scattergun has 2 more shots before it reloads, but when you reload it you either have to fall back or swap for one of your other weapons. Shortstop? Shortstop, you duck around a corner and slap 4 new shells in and pop back around and continue peppering the enemy team.
I've literally run out of reserve ammo while taking *no* damage in a 1v4 situation, where the opponents kept on getting chunked low enough that they'd run back to spawn while I just dodged everything they threw at me. No other Scattergun could've done that.
Oh Shortstop, it used to be my favorite Scout weapon. I literally had name it _"Best gun ever
Okay, the set bonuses were terrible, though. We can all agree Valve sucks at balancing, but let's not defend pay-to-win in the same breath.
the shove would be leagues better if it actually had the same range as the airblast, and more force, but personally i don't care since its the ultimate warmup weapon
Airblast has a decent range so it's possible to reflect with it.
The lord is back
Yes
@@habibazizi7091 idk why im getting likes all im doing is saying whats on everyones minds
No joke,this is one of my most awaited series on YT now.
@@mysoncrumphaseveryinjury3853 this divine being is saving us from the depressing life we live for a few minutes a day and i can respect that.
@@bajangaco4019 WE MEET AGAIN
For some reason "Of course the Natascha heavy is using the Fists of Steel, why wouldn't he?" cracks me up every time
fist of steel kind of screws over a sniper for little tradeoff
It's that Seth Rogen-like voice, isn't it?
@@poopyjoe7435 he deserves it
Rebalance idea: The shove is replaced with a sort of forcehofhnature shot where you fire your clip all at once with bigger spread. Pellets amount depends on how many shots are left in the clip and it shots enemies back like the shove.
I’d have to disagree with the notion that the shortstop punishes you in literally any regard. The lower damage is made up for by the firing speed, and the firing speed and reloading its entire clip at once means you’ll be pumping out more shots. I’m not even that good at the game and I’ve topscored the last ~12 games I’ve played using the whole special delivery set. The shortstop is actually how I got my first 5ks way back.
While I think that the downsides can be over exaggerated, I don’t agree with the no punish notion, as they said the tighter spread gives you less margin for error, you can’t hit your shots as much, it’s obviously not meant for you to get close, which, if you play stock scout for an extended period of time, is hard to resist the urge to get in, get a kill and get out, and having what is effectively a burst pistol in your primary slot makes it much harder to play aggressively as you can’t get too close, making it much easier for enemies to push into you, so it’s a fine weapon, but not without punishment for playing as the ‘typical scout’
@@sleeby526 I'd still have to disagree that the tighter spread is a punishment. I use the Shortstop regularly now and the tight spread's ability to out-range everything is incredibly powerful. Most classes are specialized around mid-range, and all are capable at it, and the Shortstop allows you to keep that ability, with the additional niche of even longer ranges, and it comes up not just more than you'd expect, but in my experience, almost every interaction is benefitted by the range. The shortstop doesn't punish people by having a tighter spread, it just forgives people less. It's like saying that you shouldn't be punished for missing your shots, and that's what Engineer's in the game for.
Would you consider doing a "op weapon academy"?
there's really no point on showing people how to best utilize already good weapons
@@Luc-vb6zt I mean he can say how to nerf and balance them or something
@@Luc-vb6zt he can do the opposite, like show them how to "not use" the weapon
He already kind of is. He made a post on youtube saying that he's writing a script about the scorch shot.
I would rather have a counter op weapons academy
I was gonna say "And tell 'em Fish sent ya" along with you, but that P alliteration really came out of left field. I am pleasantly surprised.
i love the shortstop so much. i really enjoy the passive approach it opens up. honestly i find myself using it basically every time i play scout
Something else to note about this gun: it rolls for random crits the same way rapid-fire weapons like the minigun, flamethrower, SMG, and pistol do. So if you're playing on a random crit server and you're lucky enough to receive Gaben's blessing, you don't just get one critical shot. You get however many you can crank off in two seconds. On a scout primary that has a 40% increased fire rate, reloads quickly, and has a four shot clip. Also if you're running it in MvM with upgraded damage, clip size, fire rate, and crit canteens, you can do absolutely broken amounts of damage to the tank.
The shortstop is basically the force a nature that's weaker
“Like I’m a *Shortstop*” *proceeds to bonk the heavy from medium to long range*
Welp time to edit it to say weaker
no?
it’s not necessarily weaker, just made for different things
FaN is used for close range to delete an enemy, while shortstop is used for skirmishes at medium ranges for sustained damage.
“I guess you could say it comes up short”
Shortstop making bad puns.
I see push has come to shove with these puns
Dr. Bright is no longer allowed to make any puns whatsoever
I can respect that right there
2:01
Not killing the taunting guy is true tf2 chivalry
OH, what's next?
"Bad weapon academy: Direct hit"
"Bad weapon academy: Ubersaw"
In MVM, the shove can also push giant bomb Scouts away from the bomb hole enough to cancel the deployment animation, so you can stunlock them there since robots don't attack while deploying. This doesn't work on giant Heavies since they have knockback resistance, or if some jackass on your team bodyblocks the knockback...
Honestly my favorite series on UA-cam. Thanks!
I like how the Demo at the start didn't fight back, he wanted to see it happen as much as scout did
Finally someone mentioned him
For buffing the thing, I’d decrease the reload speed, and instead of just flat increasing the damage, I say increase the damage slightly on every consecutive shot. This would make it even more satisfying to quickly hit all your shots on an enemy
Oh and bring back the increased healing
I like the idea of increasing the damage after every consecutive shot, I've never heard that idea. I also agree that 20% less damage is way too steep, it should definitely be 15%-10%. The healing mechanique was fun as hell but kinda broken, id say remove the shove and replace it with a weaker version of the healing machanique. If valve did this the shortstop would go from a niche to an actual viable choice next to stock.
@@MrH0m30wner I agree, but I don’t really see a point in removing the shove as it’s pretty much useless and doesn’t effect serious play, it shouldn’t be removed because of how good it is for goofin off
6:17 That noise in the background gave me a heart attack. I thought someone was screaming in the parking lot of my apartment
My fav. weapon is the shortstop!
-Why?
Here is why:
-load the entire clip once: not like the FaN or the Soda Popper=doesn't take away 4 ammo if you fire one. So that is why its great with the auto reload.
-the push isn't great, but usable.
-it's a sniper rifle wanna be
-the shove is funny! Like a meme and funny too.
this is a good mid range weapon,it wasn't made for close combat (and people just need to ignore the shove ability)
6:17 i paused to hear if there isnt someone actually screaming outside
I thought it was a car outside screeching.
Literally same IT was SO scary
same, it was too much fear
Same here. I have younger siblings.
me who enjoys shortstop usage : *oh its bad i guess*
11:43 Ranged Flava
Edit: 11:54 Ok, he said it lol.
I just want to say you have good taste in background music in every video
Edit: also I miss the healing bonus from Shortstop. I dont play much TF2 anymore, but still forget it got changed
This video has a better end credits scene than marvel could even dream of
So, I was in turbine, right?
Demo was in the vents, grenades were coming down on the sentry in the intel room. I snuck up behind him and shoved him down. I got to get one last good look at his eyes as he whipped around to face me before he fell. He did not survive.
My mind has rejected the idea of the shove mechanic being bad ever since.
Someone needs to animate this!
sund smit tf2
Imagine if you could dual wield this with a secondary weapon. That would be a huge buff. It would have to be reworked a lot, but I think it would be way more interesting.
I’m glad we’re back to bad weapons that are usable with the right loadout.
In MvM, you can basically turn it into a Tomislav that does a hundred damage per shot, and you get to reset the bomb if you're lucky. That's why MvM is the best game mode. Even the stupid weapons can be useful there.
The item servers were down and I couldn't change my loadout so I was stuck playing Shortstop, Winger, and Sun on a Stick for a good hour on harvest. The winger is actually amazing with the shortstop, don't know what you're talking about.
Don't want to add drama into this, but i'm glad you are not giving a fuk about the whole FACEIT thing
yeah, every tf2tuber has talked about faceit already, kinda tiring
however faceit is not that bad
@@BonnCanlasGaming45 yeah i agree, but people seem to really hate the anti-cheat thingy and i'm not sure why
@@bruschetta7711 you can still cheat on it. I doubt faceit will change anything.
The shortstop is that little brother that wants to be cool but ends up being really annoying to deal with
0:23 snoipa suit: ALERT! MAJOR FRACTURE DETECTED
I have the only strange unusual Shortstop in the game, currently sitting at 7661 kills.
Basically, I'm really passionate about the Shortstop, so here's the nitpick of all nitpicks:
1:30 The shove isn't the primary fire. I don't understand the point you're trying to make with this, because the Force-A-Nature knockback is often a hinderance, meanwhile the shove is completely optional.
1:44 & 2:55 & 4:44 & 5:08 & 14:26 Operator error doesn't equate to an imbalanced weapon.
1:54 & 8:01 The Shortstop is easily the best Scout primary for MvM because the clip size upgrades are more impactful (2 per) and the reload is full-clip. Also, the shove can perpetually stun any robot trying to capture the bomb while you wait for a teammate or pepper it yourself.
2:20 & 6:50 & 12:31 & 13:03 & 13:40 the base damage is lower, but the firing speed makes up for it. That's like saying "the minigun has way lower damage than the Scattergun" because it technically has a base damage (with all pellets connecting) of ~30.
2:30 This clip doesn't illustrate the point well. Of course you won't be killing things at 16 damage a shot. You need to connect your pellets (which CAN be done at this range).
3:03 That's a mantreads soldier. I know the shove doesn't break any records in terms of knockback but that's an inaccurate display.
3:21 The DPS does come into play. It will always come into play, by design, if you hit your shots. I have respect for you but you're always missing in the clips where you try to show how "bad" the damage is. (this happens at 3:27)
3:36 the tighter spread is a GREAT upside. Longer range means more cover, height advantages, fewer enemy pellets connecting, better view of incoming threats while fighting, and starting fights sooner. It comes up all the time.
4:00 It almost sounds like you're saying you HAVE to be using the mid-range advantage at all times. You don't. The shortstop functions perfectly well in close range, it just has more ability outside it.
4:20 It's not punishing you by being less of a crutch. No matter what weapon you're using, hitting shots center mass is how you deal good damage. This is another reason why the spread is such an upside. Aiming slightly off center mass can still have all the pellets connect, which is a way better upside in my opinon than being able to hit 3 low-damage pellets as a reward for missing. I'm not saying the Scattergun is a crutch at all; that's ridiculous. I'm just saying the Shortstop is better and better optimized by more skillful play.
4:30 Half the roster in half the time. That's the Shortstop way. It's a great upside which no, does not ask a lot of you. All it costs is hitting your shots, and it comes up all the time. Because it's half the feckin roster.
4:51 Scattergun scouts are forced to rush forward to match the damage of the Shortstop. *That's* what will make you take more damage than you're putting out.
5:27 How exactly does adding more range "add weaknesses?"
5:32 No, it's not. It's for doing everything every other primary does, but with more optional range.
6:34 I think the shove's just on there because the weapon model is small enough to justify having your hands free enough to shove. That's it. I've had some great success shoving overhealed heavies into death pits though.
8:09 & 12:45 The fact that it doesn't require anything particular to boost its ability should really say something.
9:45 I like to switch up how I play with the Shortstop, and I have found good times to use basically every Scout weapon, EXCEPT for the Crit-a-Cola. It's bad. The whole benefit of staying away from enemies is negated by taking mini-crits, and the damage boost does less because the base damage is lower.
11:15 *WITH* a friendly pyro helping you, the SoaS is REALLY good. I've gone godlike with it.
13:20 Why get rid of the shove? If you're not gonna give it any other secondary fire, this is just a nerf to an already """""bad""""" weapon.
14:08 You can tell it was a good weapon all along because you could festivize it.
This weapon is fine, albeit its weaknesses are stronger than they should be. I find this video to be the weakest one in the “Bad Weapon Academy” series, because this weapon is not deserving of being called bad whatsoever. Flawed, sure. Weak, there’s some argument to be made for it. But bad? Nope. I disagree.
@@h8thegr8 Its not even weak, its literally better than stock if you can aim.
You can blow up a soldier from full to zero before a stock rocket can even get to you in time.
Enemy scouts die in less than a second and don't ever get a chance to get 2 shots off on you if you see each other at the same time, making it impossible to lose scout 1v1s if you hit your shots.
It does way more damage than stock at mid range, and also does more relevant dps in close range given that you burst targets down to 0 health before the overall effective dps of the scattergun matters.
The shove is a free uber denial that they just decided to gift in addition to the rest of the perks, and has other various situational uses such as forcing ubered targets off of capture points; particularly good on last pushes on 5cp where you are cheese capping.
I love these videos
starts with a counterclaim (the footage of good use of the weapon in question)
then a rebuttal (showing that the weapon is still trash)
and the rest of the video is cold, hard stats for the watcher to analyze themselves
The Force-a-Nature’s knockback is either a good or bad thing depending on if you know how to use it. For the Shortstop, it’s a meme.
I think the clip is perfectly fine because of the full reload, I find myself reloading as scout with the stock A LOT so two less shots is justifiable for me to reload them all at once
I hate when some weapons just have pointless functions assigned to right click. Like, why the hell is the ubersaws taunt linked to right click?
Wait what
@@breadiztasty When you right click with the Ubersaw it triggers the tauntkill for... some reason...
@@aperson4287 how did I as a medic main not even know about this
@@breadiztasty It's such a pointless addition I honestly don't blame you for not realising it was there. I _think_ it was added because the tauntkill grants more uber when it lands, but even then I just press it by accident while retreating, and get annihilated by the entire enemy team.
2:34
"I guess you could say it comes up short"
Stop... just stop
Get it?
What would be dope is if they added more bullets and removed the shove mechanic.
They could then replace the shove with a neat mechanic allowing you to shoot all 4 bullets.
Yeah, that's actually a good idea. Maybe we could add the same thing for the force a nature.
For over 4 years playing Tf2 I always thought the Shortstop was a secondary cause it was technically a pistol
0:03 long live the king
what if the shortstop had reverse ramp up and had the healing bonus back ?
This is gonna be pretty useful considering the milk run loadout is the most comfortable scout set for med to use, very nice vid!
I really think the Shortstop deserves a second look, it seriously isn't that bad if you use it defensively/as a support weapon, combine it with mad milk and you and your teammates just won't die. Meanwhile, enemies will go running for a healthpack or locker. Think about why it's called the Shortstop, it's a *defensive* weapon.