who the hell decided it's too much work to add m&k controls to a PC PORT?? that is absolute madness. i hate that game companies can get away with that shit
who the hell decided it's too much work to just use a fucking controller on a PC PORT?? that is absolute madness. i hate that lazy ass people complain about that shit
Not surprising that Konami would do that. They are already lazy, soulless, and don't give a crap about anything. It is ridiculous for sure, but it is Konami we are talking about. The high seas are waiting
I really enjoyed Cycle: Frontier when it first released. It was a lot of fun interacting with people in the world. I felt it was ruined as soon as they added the first battle pass. Not because it was a battle pass, but because it added SUBSTANTIALLY more incentives for PvP and nobody was willing to group up to take on any of the big PvE elements on the map. It just made it much less enjoyable to explore the world they had built.
Agree! I played it for 3 months, every day, and it was only 1 time that i grouped with another dude. The other time it was kinda cool when me and my friend got into a bulding and i hear a voice behind a wall or a ceiling "What do you want?", My friend doesnt speak english, so i said to a guy "Just lootin' ", and he was like "okay". Never seen him xD
See, this is what these AAA devs don’t understand about extraction shooters. PVP is a necessary part of the game, but it should never be the center point of an extraction shooter. As soon as you start rewarding people for it the whole mode becomes a battle royale.
Honestly: The game died to it's very very flawed core game design. Nothing there came together, because instead of fixing the problems in the game loop they just added new random features.
I love that the game issued some refunds and heavily discounted purchases across the board. They gave a clear end of service date and are allowing players to still support the team if they'd like, while allowing them to know how short the time frame will be to enjoy that content.
Valve literally just saying "Please, if you own the assets then let us know, otherwise we can't confirm that you're not just stealing from somewhere else" The Cycle: Frontier was kinda bad tbh, it was much more fun when it was more like a BR game
Thats not what valve said lol. Reread it again. Basically what they said is that you have to prove that every piece in your data set was made by you or you have the license for them which is kind of a tall task if you ask me.
Valve continues to take the best stands. It's pretty simple, if you don't own the copyright to the assets you're using to make a product you plan on selling then it does not belong in their shop.
Id say its unfair to give Valve praise here, they definitely didn't do this out of the goodness of their hearts, the legality of AI generation is all over the place, so more likely Valve was just not wanting to be sued, because lets be honest, steams content regulation is garbage otherwise
The art AI generates are not assets of other people. If a person creates an art heavily inspired by some other work, it is his work and not of the person he was inspired by. So why should art inspired by tens of thousands of other art pieces at ones created should be copyright infringement only of it was created by AI?
@@michaelb4415 because without its dataset the AI can not make art, a human can make their own art, they dont NEED inspiration from other art, an AI does, believe it or not it is actually copyright infringement to use someones art as a base for your own, and AI NEEDS to use that other art as a base, a human does not
@@flamingscar5263 Have you ever looked at cave paintings? That what a human without a dataset can achieve. Artists constantly study other people's artworks, which by your logic makes all art copyright infringement.
@@flamingscar5263 Humans always have had input for any piece of art created. unless they are totally blind from birth, then they are using and referencing images of everything they have seen in their life. this would be similar to an AI program using photograph imagery for its own generation systems.
I never played The Cycle and didn't really ever see myself picking it up, however it always saddens me to hear when a game shuts down. Just the thought of a game never being able to be played again just doesn't sit right with me.
@@pavelsvachai played the og too and i loved it, i never played frontier though because it felt like the game started shifting away from the gameplay that made the og game fun. still sucks to see it be shut down
Idk maybe Konami forgot that emulation is legal in several large western countries and thought they would be getting away with it. It matches the complete lack of research that game companies have done ahead of making games lately
The Cycle: Frontier youtuber here. I played from the betas till basically a month or two ago. Season 1 had 40k players, a lot of promise, BUT they didn't ship the game on launch day with any anticheat. Not even 3rd party anticheats. It was pretty bad as cheaters were in basically every server you joined (as servers were persistent for up to 6 hours, so cheaters would just sit in servers for hours until they shut down for restarting). They didn't add any type of anticheat or compensation system until Season 2, about 6 months later. Season 2 released, and only 8k players showed up for it, and many of the issues in the game, even down to balancing, were very divisive amongst the community... Some people wanted a very fast TTK game like Tarkov or CoD, others wanted something akin to Halo or Apex. Sometimes every week the balancing would turn the game into something fundamentally different. It didn't feel like a "release" as much as dramatic testing post "launch". Season 3 would be the make-or-break moment for the game... The devs added a new mobile boss, loadouts, removed wipes, and changed the lobby area... But all of these came with a catch. The Mobile boss could be very annoying to get rid of, and often would slow down the gameplay in a lot of ways, becoming more of a hinderance to the PvP. Loadouts were finicky and often didn't work properly, the "no wipe" change also came with a lot of unknowns which further pushed the narrative that the game was going to go out regardless of outcome, the lobby rework was just visual... the overhaul people were asking for turned into adding more visual things to the current layout... Other bugs also ruined the experience, but the worst of all, a bug that took a WEEK to fix, was a bug where your team would launch into a match, but all your teammates would be put into separate instances as solos, in squad lobbies. That was the nail in the coffin for many. But even then, even when the game was doing a lot of good things, it equally did a lot of bad things that also caused the game to receive criticism, such as Skill based matchmaking, loot based matchmaking, being able to buy insurance (and therefore, in-game money to buy items) with REAL money as Aurum, selling 100$ skins, constant culling of their creator partner program, and more.
I didnt know The Cycle is being shut down again. I played the original in 2019, it was a lot more creatively designed and unique. I thought it was popular now though, so im shocked to see it leave for the second time
The game was ridiculous. You had an arbitrary color system for guns and how much damage they did, and then you threw level 1s in with the rest of the server and didn't expect the higher levels to farm the lower levels. Thats a surefire way to kill your playerbase.
@@PlasmaOne i tried to start playing it 3 seperate times, but i just simply couldnt when all i had was some trash starter gun facing against a guy with 1000 hours who has the best gun in the game
I believe the key word is AI generated using a data set that you own if you generate content with AI and use a dataset to generate your results with content you don't own you don't automatically own the product of said production.
@@flamingscar5263 Even if you adapt a model with your own artwork, it still relies from millions of weights from the original model which is stable diffusion, but that is not the issue, the redditor is probably lying by omission to some degree to hide the fact that they are using trademarked characters with AI, thus they are asking for the training data. Steam has plenty of games using AI generated images for 99% of the artwork, but the game is allowed because the developers use multiple control techniques to gain copyright of the image because it's not 100% generated.
I wonder why custom servers are never mentioned for these games that are shutting down, even if the devs can't support them anymore, at least give players the ability to do so.
amazing work konami! was honestly hoping to see how they'd deal with some of the old input related stuff like what button to mash in the torture scenes but alas, i am disappointed. i dont have a controller sadly so i'll have to use something like xoutput to get it to work or buy a goddamn controller
this is literally the first time ive even heard of cycle: frontier and it sounds like a game id really enjoy which makes it sad that the same time i discovered it i learned its being shut down. i wish i couldve learned about it sooner but hopefully i can at least get some playtime in before it gets shut down
Well, that's sad, because it at least handy to skip a little bits of human-hours in development here and there, and now it's being much sketchier to publish done product if there is let's say few si gen models/props/textures
Steam allows games with AI artwork, just go to the newest NSFW games and you will find at least 2/10 games have most of the images generated though AI and they are still there.
I make games and i think using AI tools to help is perfectly fine, but if you somehow automate the making of games just to pump steam full of them, thats when theres a big problem
to help. Thats the biggest thing. I feel like using it to help with programming is fine, great even. If the actual content of it is AI, stuff like art, music, maybeeee voice acting (very iffy on that one, I get the appeal for it for indies as voice acting is expensive) should have some form of regulations
making a profit off of databases trained on other people's hard work is not okay however. The end result is a degradation of creative content as AI content becomes far more numerous than non AI content. a creative stagnation is possibly the worst future capitalism in combination with AI can offer, and its an inevitable one.
I played cycle for a while, maybe like 10 hours or something, and i feel bad for saying this, because the game is very polished when it comes to graphics, physics, bugs and alike, but they did a very poor job at balancing stuff, so the meta was very frustrating, and idk, maybe extraction shooters are just not for me, but this is the only extraction shooter i've played, and the way the action unrolls is pretty boring, idk how to explain. For me, it was obvious that this would happen :/
Its different from Tarkov for me, as someone with ~3500 hours in Tarkov. The way combat happened in the Cycle felt a bit more gripping to me because your health pool was decently large. You were allowed to outplay your opponent even if you weren't the first one to start shooting. That is, if you both had similar tiers of gear.
I wouldnt say its very polished compared to AAA games. Especially AI, aliens do weird stuff all the time, teleporting around, hitting through walls... Graphics look good but the game isnt very well optimized, sometimes i drop for 60 fps to 20 just for lookiing at a strider. If they fixed core issues the game could have lived for years.
With the AI games ban thing like, i'm pro ai, but when i opened the "upcoming" tab on the steam store and found a few "games" that appeared to be basicaly just ai art displays i got a bit disgusted. Though if the ai assets were 3d i wouldn't have any problem with it that i can think of.
I think the already say the reason It's because many AI used not unothorize library's. It's nothing wrong with created a generated imagine the problem it's wean this ganarate imagine used asset's that illegal to use For example if create Image and upload on the internet those IA those companies it may take the image I create for resources with out even ask my if I'm okay with it and used it for ai library's that the issues with the AI
It makes sense for Steam to decline games with AI assets because of potential legal issues, but after the legal issues are sorted out I expect them to lift the ban, as it doesn't make sense long term.
well steam allows games that almost entirely rely on ai generated assets, just look for visual novels in steam, this is probably copyright infringement of a character or a fangame
I enjoyed the cycle beta more than the final game. It was much more unique. There was a strict 20 minute time limit, get as much loot in that time and survive to the evac ship. You could actually team up with others in the lobby in game, and then part ways when you've looted an area together. Then it became just another looter shooter with no real gimmics. Me, my brother and our friend were dissappointed to see the final game after the beta.
Konami was definitely thinking about money. I'm also going to be putting part of the blame on the developers as well unless if there's actual proof of some higher up outright banning them from making any attempt at M&K controls.
I'm a fan of Cycle but I recently stopped playing because I found more interest in other games. It saddens me to hear the news because I still like the game. It was my introduction to extraction shooters 😢. I will download it again so I can play it at least one more time before it's gone. And I do recommend giving it a try
Problem with that stance is that it doesn't really matter, there are already games with a decent following like High On Life that has things made with AI,yet it's still on. I don't think this is about AI at all,Steam just wants to avoid low effort AI trash games being uploaded,with they did the same for asset flips.
I hope so mate. Three of my games use AI voice acting and the last thing I want is for Valve to subjugate my business and its products just because of major lie being perpetuated by zealous artists who want to see small and solo devs using AIG to fail.
@@OnyeNacho Yeah some artists are kinda being crazy selfish with their ai rejection craze. Just improve the tools and learn how to make amazing things with them.
@@OnyeNacho If you need to use AI generated assets and or code to make a good video game, your never going to make a good video game. Anyone who thinks this shit is "democratizing the industry" is just a hopeless hack "idea guy" coping hard with the fact they lack the commitment to actually try to understand what the fuck they are even trying to do. Anyone who tries to make this a disability issue is just appropriating the language of disability advocacy to justify taking advantage of people. Anyone who thinks this shit is going to revolutionize anything (at least in any good way) is just the next evolution of the annoying jackass person who always has a new idea for an app but just need a whole team of other people to actually implement cause they don't know shit about anything. No one is an "idea's person" cause fucking everyone has ideas, the people who actually have anything to do with those ideas just go out and fucking do something with it instead of talking about how much they'd be able to do if all of the work could be automated away for them.
@@OnyeNacho I'm so sorry zealous artists don't respect you exploiting even worse than piracy to avoid paying for people's skillset. I will be praying Steam finds you
default image generations with no control are public domain, generations that go through fine tuning and meticulous control that end up without ai imperfections and almost no originally generated pixels are your copyright because its not longer the original generated image
Its good they're blocking it regardless, i dont want to live in a world where everything is created by ai, i want art and cool games to be built by my fellow human brothers, and you might just say "oh well its just a few assets" but it will evolve and soon everything will just be made by ai. Not the future that alot of us want, realistically, you should learn to do game dev properly and not cheat or cut corners to that extent.
@@Jeast. Except for the gigantic potential of AI in procedurally generated content in games, and that using AI for assets would greatly decrease the resource gap between independent developers and money-grubbing AAA titles. The way they're handling it now It's guaranteed that the only ones who are going to be able to legally use AI at all will be large studios with enough money for a robust legal team and the artists thinking fighting back against AI would save their jobs will be the first ones getting a pink slip.
@@cbtfan19 Not true. Cleaning up imperfections isn't considered sufficiently transformative to constitute a new, original, work that is subject to copyright, anymore than tracing over someone else's art is.
I do feel like pc controls for these games would be weird. They'd have to make it where only while you're in firstperson mode do you actually have mouse aim, and the aiming in thirdperson would be keyboard only. It's still unacceptable for the port to come out with no MNK support.
MGS1 had good controls for pc, MGS2 did not and it didn't even use the mouse at all, meaning you had to aim in first person with your keyboard. The original version of MGS3 would probably be the same as MGS2, The Subsistence version would use the mouse for the camera control and aiming.
Only Konami would fuck up a port of 15+year old games... ridiculous, and even more absurd is the people suddenly thinking Konami is going to do a good job with MGS Delta and Silent Hill 2 Remake (which is already worrying seeing the studio that is behind it).
The Cycle being unplayable for a second time is a terrible fate. I missed the old one but now I can't even enjoy the new Frontiers. Makes me sad that we lost 2 different Cycle games.
if you have a passion for this stuff, learning how to model or sprite you're own characters and world is probably the best and most fun and interactive part of game development..
Personally I can't draw at all and I'm a terrible modeler. I really only enjoy the programming parts. That being said, Steam is taking the right stance.
@@GabrielGonzalez2 why are they taking the right stance? I think AI can help a lot of people who cant draw or cant model themselves, now these indie devs are either forced to pay the artists (which will either baloon their budgets and make the game dev cycle even longer and less controllable for them) or will force them to make their games worse or just not make it all, how is it good for anybody except the artists getting paid the comissions?
@TheManinBlack9054 Stealing content also helps people who can't draw or model but we obviously don't let people do that and sell the game. Speaking as an Indie developer, doing either copying other people's work is helpful but *only* when used as placeholders. Not having the budget to pay the people working on a game you intend to sell is not a valid argument. It's akin to saying we shouldn't raise the minimum wage because some companies can't afford it. If a company, corporate, Indie, or otherwise, must pay its employees less than a living wage to survive, they shouldn't exist at all. Allowing AI generated content on steam that was trained with copyrighted works will only lead to even more shovelware on the platform.
What if someone wants to make a reallu big game with limited resourses. Or even game that automatically adapts to player's inputs, generatings assets in the process. I would say it's as artistic and cool as games with premade assets and can be actually good use of AI(Also requires A LOT of work. I tried doing smt like that. You need to write doznes fof prompts with specific instructions and tweaked settings to even make a small game that is generated like that)
What were they thinking? I'll tell you, "shall we have some free money?" and Geoff was like "splendid idea, I could chuck that game people like on a different store for 50 bucks?" and Brent was like "that's a great idea" and then he snorted a fat line of coke off his butlers ass.
The phrase 'tried to hide it was ai generated' rather than actually put in the effort at all really reeks of the sort of laziness ai gen Devs are so focused on
I enjoyed the Cycle for about 6-9 months started mid season 1 and played up until last week.. Overall it was a good experience but it was let down by some big issues, for me the main one was the FPS mechanics felt lack lustre, it was not twitchy enough to have good PvP gun play but it was not tactical enough to make up for it either. It suffered from realy bad issues with latency especially if you played during the quiet times of the day and it could not make a good match with those in your region as i often wanted. It was also let down by a lot of cheaters in the early days, and while they fixed this it took far too long, and the player base had all moved on and never came back. The 3rd map was a nice addition but they would have been better investing time in the cord mechanics IMO.
This is cool because it limits people from just letting ai create for them. It’s an incredible reference tool which you can work off of, not an all-in-one asset creator.
@@valkyrie5972 Neither do AI-generated images. There isn't a single law or even just a legal precedent to say they do. Not that that's not just an excuse artists use to keep others dependent on them. Which is understandable. “I want you to have to pay _me_ and then wait several days every time you want a picture instead of using a tool which does it for free in 5 seconds, because _I_ don't want to learn anything new” doesn't garner quite as much sympathy.
The cycle just cant stay alive. It was cancelled once already and it got shut down and assets repurposed into the cycle frontier and now its shutting down again. I really hope we get something else on fortuna in the future because i really like their alien designs and possible lore behind them.
@@senritsujumpsuit6021 No this is good, they just mean you cant have things that were made by ai (midjourney ai, ect.). You can have trees that were generated by ai as long as everything it uses or references is made by you.
@@senritsujumpsuit6021 well games like call of duty or any AAA game done use AI because the rules are not yet clear and big companies fear copyright the most thats why we dont hear about them using AI as much as someone would hope to. And its a good step tbh because if not for this step more half baked asset flip like games would clutter the steam market and would make indie games even harder to promote.
@@senritsujumpsuit6021 It's not about AI, its about AI based on stolen data. The current datasets on common image generators use data scraped from all over the internet.
Do they follow their own standards? Do they have the rights to use Skoda and Volkswagen car models in HL2? Or is this rule only applying to up-and-coming devs who don't already own a monopoly on the PC gaming market?
i think its a good think not to let ai games on steam yet since it can have legal problems in the future but if they dont change that policy when the law is clear its really dumb
I've played The Cycle: Frontier since beta and even there I've felt this game is gonna have a bad end (it's gonna be shut down at some point) Number one issue I saw, was that the developers did not listen to any kind of criticism. One of my friends wanted to bring up some issues about the game and was forwarded towards their Discord server. He went there and put alot of effort into a well put together text, that adressed the issue. What was the dev teams reaction? His message was deleted and banned from the server. I personally never had any issue about this, since most of my feedback was put into the feedback portion in main menu. But any game, where it's developers treat any form of negative feedback just by blocking the users and acting like nothing happened can only lead to one and only ending. Issue number two, since the beta there's been talk about more wepon variety... in season 3 they "delivered" by making some of the guns having a MK2 variant which was SLIGHTLY better version, which could be found ONLY in game. Honestly I'd be cool with this, but these weapons were "rebalanced" 3 times I think? And still they were absurdely strong in most cases. Issue number three, I get it, it was a free to play game which needs to get the income from somewhere else. That's where the battlepass comes in. I've never had an issue with BP in games if you can get the same amount of currency it costs (I'm lookin' at you greedy bastards from Activision) so when I saw you get the same amount from the BP? I was completely okay. Some cosmetics/skins here and there, bundles ofc and other stuff I was FINE. The problem for me was, that it felt like these cosmetics and skins were the top priority for the devs. There was a big issue with AI and their detection in season 3. You could NOT sneak around anything, monsters would agro at you even if you were behind a wall/hill/bush so going stealth wasn't an option. That issue was in-game for 2-3 weeks? before they rolled out a patch that said "IT HAS BEEN FIXED" but the first game I played it was completely the same like before. Marauder was sleeping, I was crouch walking mile away and he just slowly walked towards me anyway. Issue number fou, the devs PROMISED in the beta stages, there won't be any wipes. Yet with every new season they had wipes. To be honest, I wouldn't post this as an issue, because early game state of a looter extraction shooter are the BEST moments you can have. Everyone sucks, no chance you'll meet someone with the best armor/weapons so you can take more fights/not be scared of everyone you see. But alot of people had an issue with this so I'll put this one here just for the sake of seeing this "being an issue" quite alot (Maybe I just saw a really vocal minority, I can't tell, sorry) And lastly? Cheaters. Since the first two weeks of the game being out of Beta, the cheaters ruined the game for good. You had Blue or better gear? You were dead in seconds once you've landed. It was so bad I just gave up and issued a request to put this to the top of their priorities. Sadly season 2 rolled out and the cheaters were still rampant. Their try at limiting the negative experience by giving you back all your gear, once it's been confirmed the one who killed you used cheats was a really nice start. But that's probably where it all ended. Battle Eye in general is a TERRIBLE AC to relly on (Hello Tarkov) so if I recall correctly, they added ANOTHER AC on top of Battle Eye. But still, in season 3? I was killed by one to many cheaters... At least those were banned since I got every gear back, but before it was returned to me, I've advanced further with gear so my green gear that I lost couple days back was useless since I was going full Blue. Another thing was the players who queued with cheater were not banned or penalized at all. So you could create a new account, have your buddy play on his main and cheat your socks off, while he gets all the good shit and never be banned. NOW NOW, I know there's been official post that these players who queue with cheater are being punished and I'm sorry to break it to ya, they weren't. I can't remember who exactly it was, but I saw around ~15 videos from a guy, that wanted to prove it and played with his friend. His friend was cheating and he grabbed all the loot. He went to Purple/Red gear in just 7 episodes from regular white. When you read the comments, it was apparent this was a common practice among most of the cheaters for all the seasons :^) And I could ramble on and on about cheaters, but I suppose it wouldn't add anything more to it. TL;DR -Devs were not listening to what the community wanted, instead were doing their thing and this lead to decline in playerbase. -Instead of releasing new weapons/rebalance existing, they focused on pushing out cosmetics at the price of not being able to fix issues fast enough. -From what i saw, many people had issues with the game being wiped with every new season, while the devs promised they won't wipe the game ever. (Personally I didn't mind this at all, quite the opposite) -And lastly, cheaters that were ruining the experience sine week1 of the game. Some efforts into dealing with them were made, but it just wasn't enough with the amount of how much of them there was (and quite frankly, that's what F2P games should imo focus THE MOST... a proper AC and systems to deal with them) Please, if you have any questions/opinions, I'll gladly hear you out (unlike YAGER devs amirite?)
the continued use of the term “Artificial Intelligence” is incredibly frustrating, what these algorithms do is more like Automated Plagiarism and I’m glad Steam has taken this position about these games
I wished valve would offer a stable diffusion Checkpoint that can be used together with loras of a Developer. As Somebody who cant draw but whants to make an aesthetically pleasant game i don't mind using stable diffusion with prompts and image to image generation for drafts i made. It has become such a useful tool in my game creation process that i would really lose a lot of wuality of the game i make if i went without Stable diffusion.
was a big fan of the cycle, i could get immersed the best out of any other game, even singleplayer. it had SOOOO much potential, and the core was excellent, but the devs are clueless as how to handle what they had built which is baffling to me. Once they revealed that game wipes were out the window, it was just a matter of time before they shut down the game.
when you close down a game, *refund* people and block money-related options (for people who don't know about shutdown) you're smart and a good dev in my opinion. apex mobile got shutdown, they took all money and did not care, the greed of big companies,....
That's how you closing servers and how you not making ports. Great news, everyone! We finally publish our game on PS5.. with one condition: you have to use keyboard and mouse. Don't miss the opportunity to preorder new products: PSBoard and PSMice, both of each has unique system with keys resisting your input, what only three games will use. All of that just for 499.99 with RGB option just for 599.98!
I liked the original version of The Cycle better. Still sad to see it shut down. I hope the studio doesn't disappear, they had a cool world and aesthetic going on
Topic one: AI assets in games aren't that big of a deal on one hand, in the sense that, if you actually pay for the assets that are generated, you do own them and it can be a great way for indie devs, specificly small and single dev creators to cut down on workloads for more ambitious projects. However, on the other, it could set a terrible precedent wherein large companies begin firing their asset teams on favor of just designing algorithms to generate their assets and removing human work from games, which saves them a lot of money on games they will likely charge the same price for. And of course, there will be those who use 3rd party AI generation without paying for the assets created by others, as, even if it was generated by an AI program, the AI itself was designed by a human, or, likely, multiple people, and therefore, would be stealing their work for profit. I'm honestly siding with Valve on this issue, there's a whole lot of negatives that outweigh the few positives there could be, and I'm not looking to put people out of work while we still live under a system that demands we work to survive. Topic 2: while their decisions to minimize the fallout from shutting down their game is commendable, this is the best case scenario for one of the real problems with live service games. No matter how much time, money, and passion you put into supporting a game you love, all of that can be pulled out from under you the moment a dev or publisher decides they no longer want to support a title. And since you don't really own anything you've paid for, any money you've spent just disappears and you have nothing to show for it but memories. Honestly, i know it would take a massive shift in culture to do this, but realisitically, no one should be spending money on live service games until this problem is properly addressed. Topic 3: I genuinely don't understand how you can release a PC game of any kind without MnK support. Even Dead Cells, which is demonstrably awful on MnK, still supports it. As with any game, I don't think it should be required to buy a whole separate device just to play a game on your preferred platform. If you're going to port something, do it correctly. Let's be honest though, this is being done to cut down on costs, and I'm certain they're going to rely on the modding community to make up for this fuck up, which, at this point, are just straight up unofficial unpaid laborers with how often modders have to fix terrible ports and badly optimized games.
Here is the thing: AAA game companies do not even care about AI. If they truly did, many would have switch to it overnight by now, laying off staff by droves as we type. A3 business are not even willing to research on AIG nor respect it, thinking they are 'too good' for it. All of this moral fear mongering anti-AI activists have been promoting is not only utter nonsense but also posing a TREMENDOUS threat to small and solo game developers like myself who NEED this tech to get far in their business of game dev. We're not greedy, but we are also not made of money to hire others, and regardless of that, there is also the problem of trust from them. I personally wasted a full decade going through scammers, and narcissistic, sociopathic/psychopathic sub-humans who try to cancel, dox, or swat me for the dumbest of reasons. One such person took it steps further and managed to nearly destroy one important game, my business, and my life - lying to my colleague, her college campus, police department that I was going to her state, right to her college campus, just to "get her". She tried to manipulate my business colleague into disclosing my CONFIDENTIAL info to her so she can use it to dox and swat me - all because a friend of ours and I asked her to re-explain her movie theatre problems so we could help her with some useful resources. It is because of this ordeal that I am now fearful of signing contracts with anyone in this game industry, at least with my full real name. I refuse to risk being betrayed and doxxed/swatted again. I learned the hard way people in this gaming industry can not be trusted, so I instead worked towards self-learning game dev skills and making the games singlehandedly, which worked much better for me than when I tried to work with teams to achieve the same goals - which went nowhere. There are already many fantastic things solo devs have made without AI, but they also demonstrated the vast limitations in a world without AIG to aid them. Now thanks to AIG, my output has improved drastically and I can get games created faster without needing to focus too much on improvising and slow precision. And now services like Valve want to destroy our dreams and cripple (if not kill) our businesses.
On topic one, a lot of AI art generators train on massive data sets which the creators of the AI generator don't have the copyrights to, specifically because it contains art ripped from the public domain, but is still under copyright. When you pay for AI art to be generated, you aren't paying for a copyright, you are just paying for the service. They cannot legally give you any copyright because the data set they trained the model on was not entirely, or likely even partially, theirs
Now use your brain a little more. If there are laws against AI who can simply ignore them and pay the fines, Big Publishers who never cared for their employees anyways or little indie devs? I give you a hint the same corporations that pay billions every few years in fines for breaking anti monopoly laws are also the ones promoting "ethics in AI" the ones that own the sweatshops you know those ethical companies. Regulations against AI effectively means that small studios, individuals and FOS communities are priced/fined out of benefiting from AI, while giant corporations simply pay the fines. Accept that the world of tech is ever changing and support the Free and Open Source community by keeping things free and open. You can't put the genie back into the bottle, but you can at least not tilt the playing field in favor of the same old big corporations. The truth is that AI is a massive benefit for small indie studios with a great idea and a small budget and will help them create better games. And all these jobs the big studios replace with AI are people who can now use AI to make the game they really want instead of working for a AAA studio that makes the next focus group approved mediocre game. Indie games will increase in quality while AAA games will become more soulless, that is a good thing.
I acknowledged that there is a positive aspect to AI generation, I'm not saying it doesn't have any application. The point I was getting at is that, yeah, AAA publishers don't care about AI right now, but that doesn't mean it won't happen eventually, which would put a large number of workers out of a job. Once it's financially beneficial for them to develope their own AIs, they absolutely will. I understand that AIs are trained on inputted data, but quite frankly, that's still a legal gray area. The whole reason valve is taking a stance on it is because there isn't legal precedent. They're covering their asses. Technically no, you can't actually buy the copyright through paying for the service, but, until that type of case is ruled on by a court, it's still up in the air on how that would be viewed. It could definitely be argued that if someone believed they were paying for copyrights by paying for the service, they wouldn't be legally responsible. I'm not a lawyer, but I could definitely see such a case happening, and then it would be up to whatever judicial system receives the case. Now, I'm fully aware that large companies can eat legal costs a lot easier than small devs, I get that, and I would love for everything to be free and open source, but, we live in the age of massive corporate consolidation. Someone will buy these softwares eventually, and, if we don't take a stand on it, it will most likely be those same large corporations purchasing these softwares. I'd definitely prefer that games were created by small, passionate teams and I'd love for them to have things become easier for them, but I'm looking at the bigger picture. While we still live under the current late stage capitalist hellscape that we do, I'd rather have small teams not being able to use AI generation if it means workers aren't laid off en masse at large corporations once they deem AI asset generation to be a financially beneficial course of action. I side with valve simply because I'm thinking of massive corporations becoming ewealthier, even wealthy enough to completely drown out indie devs more than they already do, based on work generated for free that they don't have to pay for. If people didn't have to work to survive, I'd be all for letting large corporations shoot themselves in the foot pumping out terrible AI generated schlock while indie devs use them responsibly to help create passion projects. But that isn't the world we live in yet. And so, allowing large corporations to even consider this course of actions makes me scared for the future of human game development. You don't have to agree with me, but don't imply that I'm stupid and just spouting nonsense, I simply have a different perspective than you do. Insulting people helps no one and shuts down conversation.
What I'm really getting at overall is that game developers and workers at publishers should unionize and then decide for themselves how these things get used. Don't let massive corporations who can pay for good legal teams make the decisions on these things, collectively decide how these types of things should be used as workers. And honestly, unionization would help with just dozens of problems that need addressed in the gaming industry as a whole, such as crunch and the live service nightmare we're living in.
No M&K support for MGS1 and 2 makes no sense. PC ports for those games already existed on release, and both were available on GOG until MGS2 had to be taken down because of the copyrighted footage.
The Cycle Frontier was like lighting in a bottle for me. It was EXACTLY the game I was looking for, and I played it for hours and hours. After playing for 500~ hours, it sort of lost the magic for me, but I still think it’s a great and underrated game, that had such much potential. It breaks my heart that they’re killing it off
Any game that straight up ends and becomes unavailable for purchase should be *required* to release its client and server source code the day you can't purchase/play it anymore.
Otherwise they become scams. This is why I never invest in live service trash anymore. Then again, if the Cycle was F2P to begin with, then such obligations are not truly necessary. Only applies to commercial GaaS.
"The laws around copyright and AI generated work are still being figured out". Sure, in the sense that if one day, all drivers unilaterally ignored current traffic laws and started driving on the opposite side of the road, it would suddenly be in the publics best interest to reexamine existing traffic laws. When they put the data sets together they just straight up ignored existing copyright law. All those images are being used by for profit companies in payed commercial products without the consent of the authors. In any other context we wouldn't even question the legality of something like this. Valve may be in the right, legally and ethically speaking. But the widespread adoption of these AI tools could mean that soon, the use of such tools is just a common practice in game development and Valve may need to reverse course.
It WILL be a common practice in game dev, and we do not "steal" other's work. Transformative works law exists for a reason. Without it, many of your favorite artists creating commissions for you would not existed in the art industry, or they'd just be sued into oblivion by numerous corporations. You're worried about the AI Machine, then you may as well worry about the corporations and individuals who can just as well argue against the artists salvaging their IPs into their art to make a living from it. Drawings harvested into a prompt literally reincarnates into a new image. Nothing (if not nigh nothing) of the original work is even prevalent anymore, especially the more you generate from successor references, until it is virtually unrecognizable. AIG is literally transformative works on steroids and adrenaline.
@@OnyeNacho I agree with your general sentiment. AI art IS transformative! However, the legal issue surrounding this tech ultimately has nothing to do with the end user's output. The argument is that the "AI product" itself contains copyrighted materials. The issue is that they are including, utilizing, redistributing and/or reselling the images they use to create the data sets without permission or compensation to the artists, as part of the AI product. The images are just repackaged into whatever format the AI needs to utilize them as a data set. The AI can not function without the data set, eg the images. The images are included in the product in one way or another and therefore copyrighted materials are being redistributed and/or resold as part of the AI product. Even if they dont charge, its not legal to just compile a bunch of copyrighted material and redistribute it.
Well the law is actually very very clear on AI. Only human created art can be claimed as copyrighted so AI art cant be copyrighted at all. In fact I could probably snag an AI created ad and fix it up nice and neat and claim it as my own IP :D
I have 500 hrs in the cycle from the past month alone, such a shame the devs never listened to the community and how they made a half arsed response to cheating, by making high kd lobbies and low kd lobbies. By doing so, it made dedicated players get put in games with almost exclusively cheaters. Furthermore, there is no active anticheat, just reactive bans and compensation. There are sooooooo many more issues and tbh I cba listing them off.
@OnyeNacho hardly, extraction shooters effectively play the same as BR. They feel old already. Warzone 2 and warzone dmz are perfect examples. Same map same game play, they both end up with the same problems.
who the hell decided it's too much work to add m&k controls to a PC PORT?? that is absolute madness. i hate that game companies can get away with that shit
yea that's hella nuts, it's not a port... it's an emulator
who the hell decided it's too much work to just use a fucking controller on a PC PORT?? that is absolute madness. i hate that lazy ass people complain about that shit
Companies trying their best to make piracy more and more of a viable solution.
This some Nintendo tier stuff.
cough, cough... FromSoftware
Dark soles
Not surprising that Konami would do that. They are already lazy, soulless, and don't give a crap about anything. It is ridiculous for sure, but it is Konami we are talking about. The high seas are waiting
I really enjoyed Cycle: Frontier when it first released. It was a lot of fun interacting with people in the world. I felt it was ruined as soon as they added the first battle pass. Not because it was a battle pass, but because it added SUBSTANTIALLY more incentives for PvP and nobody was willing to group up to take on any of the big PvE elements on the map. It just made it much less enjoyable to explore the world they had built.
Agree! I played it for 3 months, every day, and it was only 1 time that i grouped with another dude. The other time it was kinda cool when me and my friend got into a bulding and i hear a voice behind a wall or a ceiling "What do you want?", My friend doesnt speak english, so i said to a guy "Just lootin' ", and he was like "okay". Never seen him xD
I think ultimately people didnt want to play it cause it was full of hackers....
See, this is what these AAA devs don’t understand about extraction shooters. PVP is a necessary part of the game, but it should never be the center point of an extraction shooter. As soon as you start rewarding people for it the whole mode becomes a battle royale.
Those knife only Ninjas hiding in the bushes will still haunt me for years to come
Honestly: The game died to it's very very flawed core game design. Nothing there came together, because instead of fixing the problems in the game loop they just added new random features.
I love that the game issued some refunds and heavily discounted purchases across the board. They gave a clear end of service date and are allowing players to still support the team if they'd like, while allowing them to know how short the time frame will be to enjoy that content.
Valve literally just saying "Please, if you own the assets then let us know, otherwise we can't confirm that you're not just stealing from somewhere else"
The Cycle: Frontier was kinda bad tbh, it was much more fun when it was more like a BR game
Absolutely agree, i Loved the original the cycle!
Thats not what valve said lol. Reread it again. Basically what they said is that you have to prove that every piece in your data set was made by you or you have the license for them which is kind of a tall task if you ask me.
@TheManinBlack9054 that isn't a tall ask. It's probably the bare minimum.
@@TheManinBlack9054or just dont be lazy and make game assets yourself 🤯
@@marcosramirez2278 It isn't kinda the bare minimum, it's absolutely the bare minimum.
Bro there's still like 200 ai hentai Puzzle Games. Hope to god they don't let any of them get grandfathered in.
Valve continues to take the best stands. It's pretty simple, if you don't own the copyright to the assets you're using to make a product you plan on selling then it does not belong in their shop.
Id say its unfair to give Valve praise here, they definitely didn't do this out of the goodness of their hearts, the legality of AI generation is all over the place, so more likely Valve was just not wanting to be sued, because lets be honest, steams content regulation is garbage otherwise
The art AI generates are not assets of other people. If a person creates an art heavily inspired by some other work, it is his work and not of the person he was inspired by. So why should art inspired by tens of thousands of other art pieces at ones created should be copyright infringement only of it was created by AI?
@@michaelb4415 because without its dataset the AI can not make art, a human can make their own art, they dont NEED inspiration from other art, an AI does, believe it or not it is actually copyright infringement to use someones art as a base for your own, and AI NEEDS to use that other art as a base, a human does not
@@flamingscar5263 Have you ever looked at cave paintings? That what a human without a dataset can achieve. Artists constantly study other people's artworks, which by your logic makes all art copyright infringement.
@@flamingscar5263 Humans always have had input for any piece of art created. unless they are totally blind from birth, then they are using and referencing images of everything they have seen in their life. this would be similar to an AI program using photograph imagery for its own generation systems.
I never played The Cycle and didn't really ever see myself picking it up, however it always saddens me to hear when a game shuts down. Just the thought of a game never being able to be played again just doesn't sit right with me.
I played the OG The Cycle and that was so much fun, The Cycle: Frontier felt like soulless Tarkov clone. Still saddens me to see it die a second time.
@@pavelsvachai played the og too and i loved it, i never played frontier though because it felt like the game started shifting away from the gameplay that made the og game fun. still sucks to see it be shut down
Idk maybe Konami forgot that emulation is legal in several large western countries and thought they would be getting away with it. It matches the complete lack of research that game companies have done ahead of making games lately
The Cycle: Frontier youtuber here. I played from the betas till basically a month or two ago.
Season 1 had 40k players, a lot of promise, BUT they didn't ship the game on launch day with any anticheat. Not even 3rd party anticheats. It was pretty bad as cheaters were in basically every server you joined (as servers were persistent for up to 6 hours, so cheaters would just sit in servers for hours until they shut down for restarting). They didn't add any type of anticheat or compensation system until Season 2, about 6 months later. Season 2 released, and only 8k players showed up for it, and many of the issues in the game, even down to balancing, were very divisive amongst the community... Some people wanted a very fast TTK game like Tarkov or CoD, others wanted something akin to Halo or Apex. Sometimes every week the balancing would turn the game into something fundamentally different. It didn't feel like a "release" as much as dramatic testing post "launch".
Season 3 would be the make-or-break moment for the game... The devs added a new mobile boss, loadouts, removed wipes, and changed the lobby area... But all of these came with a catch. The Mobile boss could be very annoying to get rid of, and often would slow down the gameplay in a lot of ways, becoming more of a hinderance to the PvP. Loadouts were finicky and often didn't work properly, the "no wipe" change also came with a lot of unknowns which further pushed the narrative that the game was going to go out regardless of outcome, the lobby rework was just visual... the overhaul people were asking for turned into adding more visual things to the current layout... Other bugs also ruined the experience, but the worst of all, a bug that took a WEEK to fix, was a bug where your team would launch into a match, but all your teammates would be put into separate instances as solos, in squad lobbies. That was the nail in the coffin for many.
But even then, even when the game was doing a lot of good things, it equally did a lot of bad things that also caused the game to receive criticism, such as Skill based matchmaking, loot based matchmaking, being able to buy insurance (and therefore, in-game money to buy items) with REAL money as Aurum, selling 100$ skins, constant culling of their creator partner program, and more.
This deserves more likes.
love how skill based matchmaking is the first problematic one of these and not... every single other thing which is 100% worse lmao
@@Klosterhasi Just listing them off, in no particular order, lmao
I didnt know The Cycle is being shut down again. I played the original in 2019, it was a lot more creatively designed and unique. I thought it was popular now though, so im shocked to see it leave for the second time
The game was ridiculous. You had an arbitrary color system for guns and how much damage they did, and then you threw level 1s in with the rest of the server and didn't expect the higher levels to farm the lower levels. Thats a surefire way to kill your playerbase.
@@PlasmaOne i tried to start playing it 3 seperate times, but i just simply couldnt when all i had was some trash starter gun facing against a guy with 1000 hours who has the best gun in the game
The original is one of my Favourite Games, i Miss IT so much!
weird, i could've sworn Bonelab had some AI generated art in some areas like the Rooftop level
you're right, maybe its because it released before valve decided on their stance for accepting AI generated content
I believe the key word is AI generated using a data set that you own if you generate content with AI and use a dataset to generate your results with content you don't own you don't automatically own the product of said production.
pretty sure stress level zero used their art from their previous games for the AIs dataset
They did?
@@flamingscar5263 Even if you adapt a model with your own artwork, it still relies from millions of weights from the original model which is stable diffusion, but that is not the issue, the redditor is probably lying by omission to some degree to hide the fact that they are using trademarked characters with AI, thus they are asking for the training data. Steam has plenty of games using AI generated images for 99% of the artwork, but the game is allowed because the developers use multiple control techniques to gain copyright of the image because it's not 100% generated.
thank god
I would agree with steam however, meanwhile there are games using asset flips and Vampire Survivors which clearly took retro nintendo game sprites.
Great gaming news update, Garbaj! :)
I wonder why custom servers are never mentioned for these games that are shutting down, even if the devs can't support them anymore, at least give players the ability to do so.
Have you ever seen a server set up? Obviously not
@@Jordan-db2og No, hence "I wonder why".
amazing work konami! was honestly hoping to see how they'd deal with some of the old input related stuff like what button to mash in the torture scenes but alas, i am disappointed. i dont have a controller sadly so i'll have to use something like xoutput to get it to work or buy a goddamn controller
Certified Konami moment; literally scraping the bottom of the “barebones port” barrel
this is literally the first time ive even heard of cycle: frontier and it sounds like a game id really enjoy which makes it sad that the same time i discovered it i learned its being shut down. i wish i couldve learned about it sooner but hopefully i can at least get some playtime in before it gets shut down
Well, that's sad, because it at least handy to skip a little bits of human-hours in development here and there, and now it's being much sketchier to publish done product if there is let's say few si gen models/props/textures
Steam allows games with AI artwork, just go to the newest NSFW games and you will find at least 2/10 games have most of the images generated though AI and they are still there.
Was never a frequent cycle frontier player but the few times I hopped on it was really fun, sad to see it go.
you covered great content, sad news, but news that I liked to hear.
Valve may be rejecting AI generated art to avoid another Hawken Reborn incident
I make games and i think using AI tools to help is perfectly fine, but if you somehow automate the making of games just to pump steam full of them, thats when theres a big problem
to help. Thats the biggest thing. I feel like using it to help with programming is fine, great even. If the actual content of it is AI, stuff like art, music, maybeeee voice acting (very iffy on that one, I get the appeal for it for indies as voice acting is expensive) should have some form of regulations
making a profit off of databases trained on other people's hard work is not okay however. The end result is a degradation of creative content as AI content becomes far more numerous than non AI content. a creative stagnation is possibly the worst future capitalism in combination with AI can offer, and its an inevitable one.
@@ranchonbread4905 But why leave voice actors without a job? If we protect artists, we should protect voice actors as well.
No one wants to make games via AI, and that's not what this video is about.
The subject is using AI to create anything other than code
@@ranchonbread4905 Yea i was thinking more programming, idea generation, bug finding etc. Maybe localisation which might be a drag for a lot of indies
I played cycle for a while, maybe like 10 hours or something, and i feel bad for saying this, because the game is very polished when it comes to graphics, physics, bugs and alike, but they did a very poor job at balancing stuff, so the meta was very frustrating, and idk, maybe extraction shooters are just not for me, but this is the only extraction shooter i've played, and the way the action unrolls is pretty boring, idk how to explain. For me, it was obvious that this would happen :/
Its different from Tarkov for me, as someone with ~3500 hours in Tarkov. The way combat happened in the Cycle felt a bit more gripping to me because your health pool was decently large. You were allowed to outplay your opponent even if you weren't the first one to start shooting. That is, if you both had similar tiers of gear.
yeah imo it was a boring p2w game, and if you had starter weapons you wouldnt win a single fight.
I wouldnt say its very polished compared to AAA games. Especially AI, aliens do weird stuff all the time, teleporting around, hitting through walls... Graphics look good but the game isnt very well optimized, sometimes i drop for 60 fps to 20 just for lookiing at a strider.
If they fixed core issues the game could have lived for years.
@@freethegoons it was never p2w. you cant really buy weapons with premium currency. Its grind to win.
I agree, everything is pretty grindable
Metal Gear Solid already HAD a PC port. In 2000, for Windows XP. With mouse support.
With the AI games ban thing like, i'm pro ai, but when i opened the "upcoming" tab on the steam store and found a few "games" that appeared to be basicaly just ai art displays i got a bit disgusted. Though if the ai assets were 3d i wouldn't have any problem with it that i can think of.
I think the already say the reason
It's because many AI used not unothorize library's.
It's nothing wrong with created a generated imagine the problem it's wean this ganarate imagine used asset's that illegal to use
For example if create Image and upload on the internet those IA those companies it may take the image I create for resources with out even ask my if I'm okay with it and used it for ai library's that the issues with the AI
It makes sense for Steam to decline games with AI assets because of potential legal issues, but after the legal issues are sorted out I expect them to lift the ban, as it doesn't make sense long term.
well steam allows games that almost entirely rely on ai generated assets, just look for visual novels in steam, this is probably copyright infringement of a character or a fangame
@@cbtfan19 Yeah, true. I also expect that
I enjoyed the cycle beta more than the final game. It was much more unique. There was a strict 20 minute time limit, get as much loot in that time and survive to the evac ship. You could actually team up with others in the lobby in game, and then part ways when you've looted an area together. Then it became just another looter shooter with no real gimmics. Me, my brother and our friend were dissappointed to see the final game after the beta.
Konami was definitely thinking about money. I'm also going to be putting part of the blame on the developers as well unless if there's actual proof of some higher up outright banning them from making any attempt at M&K controls.
I'm a fan of Cycle but I recently stopped playing because I found more interest in other games. It saddens me to hear the news because I still like the game. It was my introduction to extraction shooters 😢. I will download it again so I can play it at least one more time before it's gone. And I do recommend giving it a try
Problem with that stance is that it doesn't really matter, there are already games with a decent following like High On Life that has things made with AI,yet it's still on. I don't think this is about AI at all,Steam just wants to avoid low effort AI trash games being uploaded,with they did the same for asset flips.
I hope so mate. Three of my games use AI voice acting and the last thing I want is for Valve to subjugate my business and its products just because of major lie being perpetuated by zealous artists who want to see small and solo devs using AIG to fail.
@@OnyeNacho Yeah some artists are kinda being crazy selfish with their ai rejection craze. Just improve the tools and learn how to make amazing things with them.
@@OnyeNacho If you need to use AI generated assets and or code to make a good video game, your never going to make a good video game. Anyone who thinks this shit is "democratizing the industry" is just a hopeless hack "idea guy" coping hard with the fact they lack the commitment to actually try to understand what the fuck they are even trying to do. Anyone who tries to make this a disability issue is just appropriating the language of disability advocacy to justify taking advantage of people. Anyone who thinks this shit is going to revolutionize anything (at least in any good way) is just the next evolution of the annoying jackass person who always has a new idea for an app but just need a whole team of other people to actually implement cause they don't know shit about anything. No one is an "idea's person" cause fucking everyone has ideas, the people who actually have anything to do with those ideas just go out and fucking do something with it instead of talking about how much they'd be able to do if all of the work could be automated away for them.
@@OnyeNacho I'm so sorry zealous artists don't respect you exploiting even worse than piracy to avoid paying for people's skillset. I will be praying Steam finds you
AI art has been deemed to not have any copyright since it wasn't a human that made it
default image generations with no control are public domain, generations that go through fine tuning and meticulous control that end up without ai imperfections and almost no originally generated pixels are your copyright because its not longer the original generated image
@@cbtfan19 which might mean that you would need an artist anyway to cover up the A.I parts
Its good they're blocking it regardless, i dont want to live in a world where everything is created by ai, i want art and cool games to be built by my fellow human brothers, and you might just say "oh well its just a few assets" but it will evolve and soon everything will just be made by ai. Not the future that alot of us want, realistically, you should learn to do game dev properly and not cheat or cut corners to that extent.
@@Jeast. Except for the gigantic potential of AI in procedurally generated content in games, and that using AI for assets would greatly decrease the resource gap between independent developers and money-grubbing AAA titles. The way they're handling it now It's guaranteed that the only ones who are going to be able to legally use AI at all will be large studios with enough money for a robust legal team and the artists thinking fighting back against AI would save their jobs will be the first ones getting a pink slip.
@@cbtfan19 Not true. Cleaning up imperfections isn't considered sufficiently transformative to constitute a new, original, work that is subject to copyright, anymore than tracing over someone else's art is.
I do feel like pc controls for these games would be weird. They'd have to make it where only while you're in firstperson mode do you actually have mouse aim, and the aiming in thirdperson would be keyboard only. It's still unacceptable for the port to come out with no MNK support.
MGS1 had good controls for pc, MGS2 did not and it didn't even use the mouse at all, meaning you had to aim in first person with your keyboard. The original version of MGS3 would probably be the same as MGS2, The Subsistence version would use the mouse for the camera control and aiming.
Only Konami would fuck up a port of 15+year old games... ridiculous, and even more absurd is the people suddenly thinking Konami is going to do a good job with MGS Delta and Silent Hill 2 Remake (which is already worrying seeing the studio that is behind it).
for the mgs port does it apper that the roms will be available so that it can be used for legal emulation?
The Cycle being unplayable for a second time is a terrible fate. I missed the old one but now I can't even enjoy the new Frontiers. Makes me sad that we lost 2 different Cycle games.
On GOG, mgs had mnk support so idk why it's so hard to port mnk.
Awesome news!
if you have a passion for this stuff, learning how to model or sprite you're own characters and world is probably the best and most fun and interactive part of game development..
Personally I can't draw at all and I'm a terrible modeler. I really only enjoy the programming parts. That being said, Steam is taking the right stance.
@@Willow1w tech bros are the ones making games, lol. Or do you think people coding the games are doctors?
@@GabrielGonzalez2 why are they taking the right stance? I think AI can help a lot of people who cant draw or cant model themselves, now these indie devs are either forced to pay the artists (which will either baloon their budgets and make the game dev cycle even longer and less controllable for them) or will force them to make their games worse or just not make it all, how is it good for anybody except the artists getting paid the comissions?
@TheManinBlack9054 Stealing content also helps people who can't draw or model but we obviously don't let people do that and sell the game. Speaking as an Indie developer, doing either copying other people's work is helpful but *only* when used as placeholders.
Not having the budget to pay the people working on a game you intend to sell is not a valid argument. It's akin to saying we shouldn't raise the minimum wage because some companies can't afford it. If a company, corporate, Indie, or otherwise, must pay its employees less than a living wage to survive, they shouldn't exist at all.
Allowing AI generated content on steam that was trained with copyrighted works will only lead to even more shovelware on the platform.
What if someone wants to make a reallu big game with limited resourses. Or even game that automatically adapts to player's inputs, generatings assets in the process. I would say it's as artistic and cool as games with premade assets and can be actually good use of AI(Also requires A LOT of work. I tried doing smt like that. You need to write doznes fof prompts with specific instructions and tweaked settings to even make a small game that is generated like that)
What were they thinking? I'll tell you, "shall we have some free money?" and Geoff was like "splendid idea, I could chuck that game people like on a different store for 50 bucks?" and Brent was like "that's a great idea" and then he snorted a fat line of coke off his butlers ass.
The phrase 'tried to hide it was ai generated' rather than actually put in the effort at all really reeks of the sort of laziness ai gen Devs are so focused on
I enjoyed the Cycle for about 6-9 months started mid season 1 and played up until last week.. Overall it was a good experience but it was let down by some big issues, for me the main one was the FPS mechanics felt lack lustre, it was not twitchy enough to have good PvP gun play but it was not tactical enough to make up for it either. It suffered from realy bad issues with latency especially if you played during the quiet times of the day and it could not make a good match with those in your region as i often wanted. It was also let down by a lot of cheaters in the early days, and while they fixed this it took far too long, and the player base had all moved on and never came back. The 3rd map was a nice addition but they would have been better investing time in the cord mechanics IMO.
I didn't even know Cycle: Frontier was a thing.
This is cool because it limits people from just letting ai create for them. It’s an incredible reference tool which you can work off of, not an all-in-one asset creator.
Let's ban tractors next. It will be cool because it will limit people from just letting tractors do farm work for them.
@@hellterminatorand how do you plan on differentiating the texts made by a human and by an ai?
@@hellterminatortractors don’t violate copyright laws
@@valkyrie5972 Neither do AI-generated images. There isn't a single law or even just a legal precedent to say they do.
Not that that's not just an excuse artists use to keep others dependent on them. Which is understandable. “I want you to have to pay _me_ and then wait several days every time you want a picture instead of using a tool which does it for free in 5 seconds, because _I_ don't want to learn anything new” doesn't garner quite as much sympathy.
@@cumcer6140 We weren't discussing that, but OK, I'll bite: By reading it. If I can tell, great, if not, does it then even matter?
imagine not having mnk on a pc game
The cycle just cant stay alive. It was cancelled once already and it got shut down and assets repurposed into the cycle frontier and now its shutting down again.
I really hope we get something else on fortuna in the future because i really like their alien designs and possible lore behind them.
Great to see Valve doing this, it sets good standards for the industry.
no it does not its like saying this kinda of VFX is banned so every game is banned like what if the next Call of Duty had an AI tree and got banned
@@senritsujumpsuit6021 No this is good, they just mean you cant have things that were made by ai (midjourney ai, ect.). You can have trees that were generated by ai as long as everything it uses or references is made by you.
@@senritsujumpsuit6021 well games like call of duty or any AAA game done use AI because the rules are not yet clear and big companies fear copyright the most thats why we dont hear about them using AI as much as someone would hope to. And its a good step tbh because if not for this step more half baked asset flip like games would clutter the steam market and would make indie games even harder to promote.
@@senritsujumpsuit6021 It's not about AI, its about AI based on stolen data. The current datasets on common image generators use data scraped from all over the internet.
Do they follow their own standards? Do they have the rights to use Skoda and Volkswagen car models in HL2? Or is this rule only applying to up-and-coming devs who don't already own a monopoly on the PC gaming market?
But how will you defeat the boss if you don't have a second USB port?
Hey can we get more Stalker content? Super cool mod
I've never seen it as MNK, only KBM
the cycle was fun but plagued with bugs that made it unplayable for me
i think its a good think not to let ai games on steam yet since it can have legal problems in the future but if they dont change that policy when the law is clear its really dumb
SIXTY DOLLARS?!!!!?!?!!???? WOW!!! 😧 thats just amazing
Valve is taking the right path on this one.
I can tell you what Konami were thinking: they were thinking about money.
the cycle is an underrated game.
what game is that which he was playing the first half of the video
I've played The Cycle: Frontier since beta and even there I've felt this game is gonna have a bad end (it's gonna be shut down at some point)
Number one issue I saw, was that the developers did not listen to any kind of criticism.
One of my friends wanted to bring up some issues about the game and was forwarded towards their Discord server.
He went there and put alot of effort into a well put together text, that adressed the issue.
What was the dev teams reaction?
His message was deleted and banned from the server.
I personally never had any issue about this, since most of my feedback was put into the feedback portion in main menu.
But any game, where it's developers treat any form of negative feedback just by blocking the users and acting like nothing happened can only lead to one and only ending.
Issue number two, since the beta there's been talk about more wepon variety... in season 3 they "delivered" by making some of the guns having a MK2 variant which was SLIGHTLY better version, which could be found ONLY in game.
Honestly I'd be cool with this, but these weapons were "rebalanced" 3 times I think? And still they were absurdely strong in most cases.
Issue number three, I get it, it was a free to play game which needs to get the income from somewhere else. That's where the battlepass comes in. I've never had an issue with BP in games if you can get the same amount of currency it costs (I'm lookin' at you greedy bastards from Activision) so when I saw you get the same amount from the BP? I was completely okay.
Some cosmetics/skins here and there, bundles ofc and other stuff I was FINE.
The problem for me was, that it felt like these cosmetics and skins were the top priority for the devs. There was a big issue with AI and their detection in season 3.
You could NOT sneak around anything, monsters would agro at you even if you were behind a wall/hill/bush so going stealth wasn't an option. That issue was in-game for 2-3 weeks? before they rolled out a patch that said "IT HAS BEEN FIXED" but the first game I played it was completely the same like before.
Marauder was sleeping, I was crouch walking mile away and he just slowly walked towards me anyway.
Issue number fou, the devs PROMISED in the beta stages, there won't be any wipes. Yet with every new season they had wipes. To be honest, I wouldn't post this as an issue, because early game state of a looter extraction shooter are the BEST moments you can have.
Everyone sucks, no chance you'll meet someone with the best armor/weapons so you can take more fights/not be scared of everyone you see. But alot of people had an issue with this so I'll put this one here just for the sake of seeing this "being an issue" quite alot (Maybe I just saw a really vocal minority, I can't tell, sorry)
And lastly? Cheaters.
Since the first two weeks of the game being out of Beta, the cheaters ruined the game for good.
You had Blue or better gear? You were dead in seconds once you've landed.
It was so bad I just gave up and issued a request to put this to the top of their priorities.
Sadly season 2 rolled out and the cheaters were still rampant.
Their try at limiting the negative experience by giving you back all your gear, once it's been confirmed the one who killed you used cheats was a really nice start. But that's probably where it all ended. Battle Eye in general is a TERRIBLE AC to relly on (Hello Tarkov) so if I recall correctly, they added ANOTHER AC on top of Battle Eye.
But still, in season 3? I was killed by one to many cheaters...
At least those were banned since I got every gear back, but before it was returned to me, I've advanced further with gear so my green gear that I lost couple days back was useless since I was going full Blue.
Another thing was the players who queued with cheater were not banned or penalized at all.
So you could create a new account, have your buddy play on his main and cheat your socks off, while he gets all the good shit and never be banned.
NOW NOW, I know there's been official post that these players who queue with cheater are being punished and I'm sorry to break it to ya, they weren't.
I can't remember who exactly it was, but I saw around ~15 videos from a guy, that wanted to prove it and played with his friend.
His friend was cheating and he grabbed all the loot.
He went to Purple/Red gear in just 7 episodes from regular white.
When you read the comments, it was apparent this was a common practice among most of the cheaters for all the seasons :^)
And I could ramble on and on about cheaters, but I suppose it wouldn't add anything more to it.
TL;DR
-Devs were not listening to what the community wanted, instead were doing their thing and this lead to decline in playerbase.
-Instead of releasing new weapons/rebalance existing, they focused on pushing out cosmetics at the price of not being able to fix issues fast enough.
-From what i saw, many people had issues with the game being wiped with every new season, while the devs promised they won't wipe the game ever. (Personally I didn't mind this at all, quite the opposite)
-And lastly, cheaters that were ruining the experience sine week1 of the game. Some efforts into dealing with them were made, but it just wasn't enough with the amount of how much of them there was (and quite frankly, that's what F2P games should imo focus THE MOST... a proper AC and systems to deal with them)
Please, if you have any questions/opinions, I'll gladly hear you out (unlike YAGER devs amirite?)
We so back...
the continued use of the term “Artificial Intelligence” is incredibly frustrating, what these algorithms do is more like Automated Plagiarism and I’m glad Steam has taken this position about these games
Very much agree
A fellow an-94 user I see, a man of culture.
I wished valve would offer a stable diffusion Checkpoint that can be used together with loras of a Developer. As Somebody who cant draw but whants to make an aesthetically pleasant game i don't mind using stable diffusion with prompts and image to image generation for drafts i made. It has become such a useful tool in my game creation process that i would really lose a lot of wuality of the game i make if i went without Stable diffusion.
was a big fan of the cycle, i could get immersed the best out of any other game, even singleplayer. it had SOOOO much potential, and the core was excellent, but the devs are clueless as how to handle what they had built which is baffling to me. Once they revealed that game wipes were out the window, it was just a matter of time before they shut down the game.
when you close down a game, *refund* people and block money-related options (for people who don't know about shutdown) you're smart and a good dev in my opinion. apex mobile got shutdown, they took all money and did not care, the greed of big companies,....
That's how you closing servers and how you not making ports.
Great news, everyone! We finally publish our game on PS5.. with one condition: you have to use keyboard and mouse.
Don't miss the opportunity to preorder new products: PSBoard and PSMice, both of each has unique system with keys resisting your input, what only three games will use. All of that just for 499.99 with RGB option just for 599.98!
I liked the original version of The Cycle better. Still sad to see it shut down. I hope the studio doesn't disappear, they had a cool world and aesthetic going on
I played the cycle way back in the day, and it was ok. Now I own a copy of tarkov and it's way better. Btw, how's the game development going?
balls
Fr
Good.
THANK YOU GOD
Topic one: AI assets in games aren't that big of a deal on one hand, in the sense that, if you actually pay for the assets that are generated, you do own them and it can be a great way for indie devs, specificly small and single dev creators to cut down on workloads for more ambitious projects. However, on the other, it could set a terrible precedent wherein large companies begin firing their asset teams on favor of just designing algorithms to generate their assets and removing human work from games, which saves them a lot of money on games they will likely charge the same price for. And of course, there will be those who use 3rd party AI generation without paying for the assets created by others, as, even if it was generated by an AI program, the AI itself was designed by a human, or, likely, multiple people, and therefore, would be stealing their work for profit. I'm honestly siding with Valve on this issue, there's a whole lot of negatives that outweigh the few positives there could be, and I'm not looking to put people out of work while we still live under a system that demands we work to survive.
Topic 2: while their decisions to minimize the fallout from shutting down their game is commendable, this is the best case scenario for one of the real problems with live service games. No matter how much time, money, and passion you put into supporting a game you love, all of that can be pulled out from under you the moment a dev or publisher decides they no longer want to support a title. And since you don't really own anything you've paid for, any money you've spent just disappears and you have nothing to show for it but memories. Honestly, i know it would take a massive shift in culture to do this, but realisitically, no one should be spending money on live service games until this problem is properly addressed.
Topic 3: I genuinely don't understand how you can release a PC game of any kind without MnK support. Even Dead Cells, which is demonstrably awful on MnK, still supports it. As with any game, I don't think it should be required to buy a whole separate device just to play a game on your preferred platform. If you're going to port something, do it correctly. Let's be honest though, this is being done to cut down on costs, and I'm certain they're going to rely on the modding community to make up for this fuck up, which, at this point, are just straight up unofficial unpaid laborers with how often modders have to fix terrible ports and badly optimized games.
Here is the thing: AAA game companies do not even care about AI. If they truly did, many would have switch to it overnight by now, laying off staff by droves as we type. A3 business are not even willing to research on AIG nor respect it, thinking they are 'too good' for it. All of this moral fear mongering anti-AI activists have been promoting is not only utter nonsense but also posing a TREMENDOUS threat to small and solo game developers like myself who NEED this tech to get far in their business of game dev. We're not greedy, but we are also not made of money to hire others, and regardless of that, there is also the problem of trust from them.
I personally wasted a full decade going through scammers, and narcissistic, sociopathic/psychopathic sub-humans who try to cancel, dox, or swat me for the dumbest of reasons. One such person took it steps further and managed to nearly destroy one important game, my business, and my life - lying to my colleague, her college campus, police department that I was going to her state, right to her college campus, just to "get her". She tried to manipulate my business colleague into disclosing my CONFIDENTIAL info to her so she can use it to dox and swat me - all because a friend of ours and I asked her to re-explain her movie theatre problems so we could help her with some useful resources. It is because of this ordeal that I am now fearful of signing contracts with anyone in this game industry, at least with my full real name. I refuse to risk being betrayed and doxxed/swatted again. I learned the hard way people in this gaming industry can not be trusted, so I instead worked towards self-learning game dev skills and making the games singlehandedly, which worked much better for me than when I tried to work with teams to achieve the same goals - which went nowhere.
There are already many fantastic things solo devs have made without AI, but they also demonstrated the vast limitations in a world without AIG to aid them. Now thanks to AIG, my output has improved drastically and I can get games created faster without needing to focus too much on improvising and slow precision.
And now services like Valve want to destroy our dreams and cripple (if not kill) our businesses.
On topic one, a lot of AI art generators train on massive data sets which the creators of the AI generator don't have the copyrights to, specifically because it contains art ripped from the public domain, but is still under copyright. When you pay for AI art to be generated, you aren't paying for a copyright, you are just paying for the service. They cannot legally give you any copyright because the data set they trained the model on was not entirely, or likely even partially, theirs
Now use your brain a little more.
If there are laws against AI who can simply ignore them and pay the fines, Big Publishers who never cared for their employees anyways or little indie devs? I give you a hint the same corporations that pay billions every few years in fines for breaking anti monopoly laws are also the ones promoting "ethics in AI" the ones that own the sweatshops you know those ethical companies.
Regulations against AI effectively means that small studios, individuals and FOS communities are priced/fined out of benefiting from AI, while giant corporations simply pay the fines.
Accept that the world of tech is ever changing and support the Free and Open Source community by keeping things free and open.
You can't put the genie back into the bottle, but you can at least not tilt the playing field in favor of the same old big corporations.
The truth is that AI is a massive benefit for small indie studios with a great idea and a small budget and will help them create better games. And all these jobs the big studios replace with AI are people who can now use AI to make the game they really want instead of working for a AAA studio that makes the next focus group approved mediocre game.
Indie games will increase in quality while AAA games will become more soulless, that is a good thing.
I acknowledged that there is a positive aspect to AI generation, I'm not saying it doesn't have any application. The point I was getting at is that, yeah, AAA publishers don't care about AI right now, but that doesn't mean it won't happen eventually, which would put a large number of workers out of a job. Once it's financially beneficial for them to develope their own AIs, they absolutely will.
I understand that AIs are trained on inputted data, but quite frankly, that's still a legal gray area. The whole reason valve is taking a stance on it is because there isn't legal precedent. They're covering their asses. Technically no, you can't actually buy the copyright through paying for the service, but, until that type of case is ruled on by a court, it's still up in the air on how that would be viewed. It could definitely be argued that if someone believed they were paying for copyrights by paying for the service, they wouldn't be legally responsible. I'm not a lawyer, but I could definitely see such a case happening, and then it would be up to whatever judicial system receives the case.
Now, I'm fully aware that large companies can eat legal costs a lot easier than small devs, I get that, and I would love for everything to be free and open source, but, we live in the age of massive corporate consolidation. Someone will buy these softwares eventually, and, if we don't take a stand on it, it will most likely be those same large corporations purchasing these softwares. I'd definitely prefer that games were created by small, passionate teams and I'd love for them to have things become easier for them, but I'm looking at the bigger picture. While we still live under the current late stage capitalist hellscape that we do, I'd rather have small teams not being able to use AI generation if it means workers aren't laid off en masse at large corporations once they deem AI asset generation to be a financially beneficial course of action. I side with valve simply because I'm thinking of massive corporations becoming ewealthier, even wealthy enough to completely drown out indie devs more than they already do, based on work generated for free that they don't have to pay for.
If people didn't have to work to survive, I'd be all for letting large corporations shoot themselves in the foot pumping out terrible AI generated schlock while indie devs use them responsibly to help create passion projects. But that isn't the world we live in yet. And so, allowing large corporations to even consider this course of actions makes me scared for the future of human game development. You don't have to agree with me, but don't imply that I'm stupid and just spouting nonsense, I simply have a different perspective than you do. Insulting people helps no one and shuts down conversation.
What I'm really getting at overall is that game developers and workers at publishers should unionize and then decide for themselves how these things get used. Don't let massive corporations who can pay for good legal teams make the decisions on these things, collectively decide how these types of things should be used as workers. And honestly, unionization would help with just dozens of problems that need addressed in the gaming industry as a whole, such as crunch and the live service nightmare we're living in.
No M&K support for MGS1 and 2 makes no sense. PC ports for those games already existed on release, and both were available on GOG until MGS2 had to be taken down because of the copyrighted footage.
well, steam is not denying the use of AI, it's only asking if you have the rights to your AI generated assets.
i hope it doesn't mean that games like Source of Madness can't happen again. that is a wonderful, wacky game.
The Cycle Frontier was like lighting in a bottle for me. It was EXACTLY the game I was looking for, and I played it for hours and hours. After playing for 500~ hours, it sort of lost the magic for me, but I still think it’s a great and underrated game, that had such much potential. It breaks my heart that they’re killing it off
Valve is doing what is common in software development. If you build software using 3rd party librarie you need to check and follow their licenses.
what was the name of the ai gen game?
Sounds like Konami. Sees the money on the wall and puts no effort into it
how do you feel about godot 4?
I really love the Graphics of Cycle Frontier the setting is just so great and I am really sad, the are goobg to shut it down😢
didn't grove street games use ai tools to make some assets for the trilogy DE?
AI can be used to give you a speeding ticket, but YOU cannot use it to make funny pixels
That scope-in transition to a PNG looks awful 😭
definitely have to give that free game a try.
Rip the cycle :(
Any game that straight up ends and becomes unavailable for purchase should be *required* to release its client and server source code the day you can't purchase/play it anymore.
Otherwise they become scams. This is why I never invest in live service trash anymore. Then again, if the Cycle was F2P to begin with, then such obligations are not truly necessary. Only applies to commercial GaaS.
RIP Cycle
literally just gonna continue to emulate for MGS lol
Not alow copyright AI asset's on steam i think it's a good thing
Company need to understand that using copyright ©️ library's with out asking it's not okay
I mean how hard it's going to be ask Wean i upload a imagine for example to ask my if I'm okay to using with AI or not ?
I know some website now have that option like DeviantArt but this should be the standard and to be like that for the started
Ngl, the old the cycle was fun. The extraction shooter version isn’t.
"The laws around copyright and AI generated work are still being figured out". Sure, in the sense that if one day, all drivers unilaterally ignored current traffic laws and started driving on the opposite side of the road, it would suddenly be in the publics best interest to reexamine existing traffic laws.
When they put the data sets together they just straight up ignored existing copyright law. All those images are being used by for profit companies in payed commercial products without the consent of the authors. In any other context we wouldn't even question the legality of something like this.
Valve may be in the right, legally and ethically speaking. But the widespread adoption of these AI tools could mean that soon, the use of such tools is just a common practice in game development and Valve may need to reverse course.
It WILL be a common practice in game dev, and we do not "steal" other's work. Transformative works law exists for a reason. Without it, many of your favorite artists creating commissions for you would not existed in the art industry, or they'd just be sued into oblivion by numerous corporations. You're worried about the AI Machine, then you may as well worry about the corporations and individuals who can just as well argue against the artists salvaging their IPs into their art to make a living from it.
Drawings harvested into a prompt literally reincarnates into a new image. Nothing (if not nigh nothing) of the original work is even prevalent anymore, especially the more you generate from successor references, until it is virtually unrecognizable. AIG is literally transformative works on steroids and adrenaline.
@@OnyeNacho I agree with your general sentiment. AI art IS transformative! However, the legal issue surrounding this tech ultimately has nothing to do with the end user's output. The argument is that the "AI product" itself contains copyrighted materials. The issue is that they are including, utilizing, redistributing and/or reselling the images they use to create the data sets without permission or compensation to the artists, as part of the AI product. The images are just repackaged into whatever format the AI needs to utilize them as a data set. The AI can not function without the data set, eg the images. The images are included in the product in one way or another and therefore copyrighted materials are being redistributed and/or resold as part of the AI product. Even if they dont charge, its not legal to just compile a bunch of copyrighted material and redistribute it.
Well the law is actually very very clear on AI. Only human created art can be claimed as copyrighted so AI art cant be copyrighted at all. In fact I could probably snag an AI created ad and fix it up nice and neat and claim it as my own IP :D
I’m curious to see how the steam AI policy interfaces with the coming Unity and Unreal ai assistance options.
Valve keeps taking Ws. Hopefully AI is never allowed
I have 500 hrs in the cycle from the past month alone, such a shame the devs never listened to the community and how they made a half arsed response to cheating, by making high kd lobbies and low kd lobbies. By doing so, it made dedicated players get put in games with almost exclusively cheaters. Furthermore, there is no active anticheat, just reactive bans and compensation. There are sooooooo many more issues and tbh I cba listing them off.
How did you manage to play for almost 17 hours a day for 30 days straight?
@@absentspaghetti4527 uni holidays boss
On metal gear just wait modders to do it, it'll probably just happen xD
Not surprising given the fact extraction shooters,br etc etc have all been done to death and need to be cut back on.
Extraction shooters are still relatively new. Battle Royale is the only genre done to death from your list.
@OnyeNacho hardly, extraction shooters effectively play the same as BR. They feel old already. Warzone 2 and warzone dmz are perfect examples. Same map same game play, they both end up with the same problems.
@@nedflanders4158 What about Starship Troopers: Extermination?
@OnyeNacho I haven't played that yet so can't really comment on that specifically.