SUBD vs. NGON modeling - which is the right choice?
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- Опубліковано 4 лют 2021
- The ongoing debate: SUBD (quad) vs. ngon modeling. Now which is better? Well, the truth is, there isn't truly a "better", but rather preference and strategy.
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*more vids about ngon for games pls*
It would be interesting if you compare SUBD and NGON modeling for game ready models.
Just like: Create one model (highpoly and lowpoly with normals baking)) with SUBD and another with NGON. And compare visual (without difference), pipeline speed, and the number of tris in the lowpoly models).
Good idea!
@@JoshGambrell I highly Reccomend you do this Josh. Not enough people know that Ngons are not only BAD
Yes! I am such a newbie I barely understand why this whole topology quad vs triangle vs N-gon thing is even a topic. A video demonstrating the badness of stuff is a good teacher.
Comparisons of demonstrated issues vs descriptions and warnings are so much better.
Wanted to make a breakdown of my process for long time - but it's just so freaking time consuming making these videos. Big kudos to Josh!
Thanks for the video. I am 3 months into learning Blender and love these "concept" videos because several things you brought up got me thinking about Topology the way I should be and not just following tutorials. So I would love to see more. 😁
Awesome man, love being able to help out those just getting started ;)
Thanks Josh...good detailed explanation. Keep them coming !
There is a much faster and non destructive way to use sub D in Blender. Using bevel modifier. set profile to '1' and corners to arc', having edge weight determine where the supporting edges will be and how wide depending on the weight value. Some times in concave corners you will end up with an 'ngon' but you can cut a diagonal line from the corner to make a triangle. Then when you turn the bevel modifier back on, you will see that the algorithm will turn it into quads.
Great explanation Josh! I guess the most important aspect is what you do after the initial modelling in order to have good UV's for later on in Substance for example.
The big question I had for several months, finally got the answer. Thanks Josh
I have learnt so much, so quickly since I started to watch your videos, your one of the only youtubers who I can watch for ages, learn a ton and not get bored. You are a legend.
Means a lot man, I definitely love sharing what I know with you guys, as well as learn from you!
I like these posts that cover why we certain techniques are used. Thanks for sharing :)
This is one of the most instructive tutorial so far. In my opinion it's very important to learn quad modeling. But you don't have to use it everytime. Like you say very often, if it works, it's okay... 👍🏻
Thanks alot
When I convert the curve to mesh the diffrance poleon not applied? Can u help pls.
Brilliantly explained the pros and cons. For both Sub D and flat surfaces. This is very essential to understand not everytime one has to take a subD approach.
Thanks Josh, it's another great video. I have been playing with knerls and can bake normal maps with them, any idea how to do a height map and apply it? Or any tutorials you could point me to. Thanks.
Thanks for sharing, this is so helpful.
I often boolean with very low poly, then create loops on the cutted object to fit the cutter, then weld modifier, then bevel and subd.
It's technically not necessary, but it gives me the flexibility of Boolean in the design stage, but allows me to end up with a clean minimal mesh that I can subd to infinity.
Too often I wanted to render a specific corner of my model and had to Photoshop out some steps, because I initially booled with too little mesh density.
I am also sometimes using a very low poly clean mesh with a bevel modifier and then just shrink-wrap details on top of it.
Sadly for my job the objects I model usually have some curvature in them which requires subd.
On fire Bros🔥🔥
This video (and playlist) are a treasure trove of useful techniques, thank you so much for making them. I was wondering if you plan to do any unwrapping guides (or if there are any you'd recommend, otherwise), I think those would really be awesome too. Keep up the good work !
Edit - Aaaand I just found the ones on UV here ... rest of the points still stand, awesome job!
Fantastic info. I mostly use subd and quads as I like to model cars. Cheers from a very chilly Nova Scotia.
@Josh Gambrell, At 23:51 I don't fully understand what you're doing here, to get rid of the sharps. Is this something you need HardOps for (Mark) and what does it do?
@Josh Gambrell, How do you get those thick looking vertex points? I tried setting Preferences > Interface > Display > Line Width to "Thick", but that had an undesirable effect on things like edge thickness and UI padding. Is there another setting somewhere for this? EDIT: Nevermind! Found it: Preferences > Themes > 3D Viewport > Vertex Size.
Question of pure curiosity, as I'm learning to go from one method to another: Working from the basic shape, where you pulled the upper and lower faces back so the front had this protruding area where the boolean was then cut out: When you applied the bevel on the sub-d model, it created creases (both concave and convex) which on the hard surface model you used an additional modifier to smooth over. However, how would you go about making the hard surface model if you were making this object for someone who wanted those creases to be "flat" on the Z-axis like they are on the sub-d model? With the hard surface model, they have a bit more of an angle to them. While this does look better, how would you model it if "management" demanded that they be "flat" like the sub-d model?
I recently purchased hard ops seeing they're going to continue support in Blender. Currently using Blender 2.9.2 but I'm still trying to wrap me hound around vector displacement and procedural workflows. I'm slowly getting familiar with hard ops.
really useful, thank you
question please, after you make the model. are you retopo your model ?
awesome video!
This is so damn helpful. Thanks.
Depends almost entirely on what market you plan to sell assets to so the first thing to check is to see what the requirements are for that particular market. I know the ones I sell to the requirement is no ngons. Also, it looks like the workflow is almost equally complex, just in different ways.
It's definitely more complex for most hard surface models to be fully subsurface. There is a reason why you see concept modelers mostly not work that way.
I think another reason this kind of discussion is important is so people in those markets and industries rethink certain conventions and standards depending on their use cases. But it is true that fully subsurface models are the least likely to have any compatibility issues.
for subd after booleans i can set bevel and "triangulate" modifier on 5 and more vertices ngons,nothing will collapse.
Can you elaborate?
:Edit: it sounds quite cool, but at least for catmull-clark subd still gets confused for me.
Hehe. :D I think I get it now. Once you apply the mods and dissolve a few edges it's clean. Nice technique!
One thing I've been noticing as a new trend for AAA studios is the move to tessellation rendering (Demon Souls Remake). Where the game extensively uses tessellation for most (if not all) assets to allow for distance based automatic dynamic lod. Tesselation seems a bit similar to sub dividing except that it triangulates it automatically.
I'm under the assumption that having mostly equal quads is a better approuch if developer were to try using this workflow right? Cause with the ngon workflow I feel like you'd have a big imbalance of areas tessellated or not.
You can achieve identical results with more support edges aiming to sharp the edges. It's more time consuming, but at the end you will have nice and clean quad poly model.
Try and do that boolean on a surface curved in multiple axis and without affecting the overall shape. Being able to fix topology in subd may be an "old technique" but is still an essential tool that unlocks the ability to obtain completely different (and more interesting) shapes compared to the cookie cutter angular shapes produced by box cutters and normal tricks. Anyone can bool on flat surface where triangles don't matter. Nevertheless your blender workflow is terrific, efficient and detailed keep it up
Appreciate the comment, but I’d disagree there. Check out this vid: ua-cam.com/video/kBfpl0-AxiY/v-deo.html
i just learned things from this video that im not supposed to learn lmao thx josh
19:00
that moment pretty impressed me
because you saw the issue and instantly knew what blender did wrong and why
i wonder if i would know blender THAT much someday
It really comes down to experiencing a problem so many times over that you immediately know where to look. Like with a car, I know nothing of cars, but have friends that solve an issue in seconds because they've dealt with it a ton (and are car guys of course) ;)
So if I'm making a prop for Unreal Engine its ok to make Ngons as long as shading doesn't look distortet?
Yes. Because once you import your mesh into Unreal, it gets triangulated.
Try to triangulate your ngons, but it's fine
Yep, triangulate in Blender. Auto triangulation causes distortions sometimes
I've seen some discussion around that and here is my response. You can have the best quadrified model or 1000 booleans, the important bit is the end product, however you got to that end product is irrelevant as long as it works.
Also worth noting the usage of the end product, you can't afford to have super high dense mesh on a mobile game or something
You can't have a 1000 booleans in a model with cinematic topology unless it's all quads. For concept art boolean + bevel is fine. The most important thing is topology, not how your end result looks like on paper.
5:55 how you connected these vertices around the whole mesh?! Great tutorial!
select 2 vertices and press J
@@priceykiller8534 thanks, but can you tell me what this function is called? Im switching from Maya and i don't have bledner default keyboard layout.
@@Foor1o86 "vertex connect path"
@@gray922 Thanks!
I feel like a padawan posed with a choice - light or dark.
Firstly, love your content and I’ve been following for quite some time.
I’ve recently had some conflicts in settling on a personal “style” and, having gotten the hops boxcutter bundle, I wasn’t really getting the results my subconscious (Sub C 🥁) likes until Arrimus’ Polygon Homework series which was more direct (?) and less regular with regards form making. This was also around the time where you released a video discussing the “proper” way of doing it with cages. I wanted to see if the two (freeform + cage) could be used together and the results weren’t great - partly due to my inexperience with the methods and probably because I didn’t set the cage up properly. I’ve been playing with the more liberal method for a bit now and I’m getting comfortable, but I’m always looking at improving across the board and that includes what you’re showing.
What I’m interested in knowing from you: is it possible to produce more freeform/Vitaly-style meshes within your methodology, or are some forms limited by technique/approach?
Sorry for the long message 😅 I really like these more discussion-centered hard surface videos cos helps fill in blanks you didn’t know you had till they were pointed out
Maybe I'll do one like that. Vitaly is on a completely different level. Vitaly uses Moi and you can see how nicely the bevels flor in his works. This is a big limitation in poly-based modeling software, something that often times isn't easy to workaround. Moi3D actually doesn't use polys at all; it is all boolean operations which define 3D objects in terms of Mathematical equations. Polys and topology aren't even a thing in that case, so the discussion would be a pretty big one. Not one I will avoid, though!
@@JoshGambrell Awesome. Thanks for clearing that up. I remember him having a multi-program workflow.
Blender is evolving so much so rapidly that I don’t doubt it will eventually integrate features of the other software.
Thanks again for your videos on the topic. Looking forward to many more 🤙
That was exactly my thoughts by the end of the video. Even had the same example with Vitaly Bulgarov. And lemme join to the need / demand on the discussion videos. Thank you, AFRIKANIZ3D,
for putting this all into words and thank you Josh for an amazing video!
I'm glad I started learning Blender after Weighted Normal became a thing, yikes. Also, this video was extremely helpful for me in understanding the different distinct modeling workflows.
23:00 for weighted normal workflow to expedite;) better than subsurf
It's pretty simple, if you're only gonna use the model on Blender/3d software go ngons, otherwise go subd as that will keep good topology with the lowest poly count, which is basically why you'd use subd.
You also need subd if you wanna bake displacement maps in Blender (afaik).
Still not completely accurate, but to a certain extent, yes.
I work in vfx primarily with Maya/Houdini etc and I disagree:
- Subd is important for things that will deform like character rigs... but:
- For static props it really just has to look good yet be texturable, displaceable if necessary etc. This doesn't always mean it has to be subd. If it needs to be sculpted, even density is important though. But if that sculpted detail will be baked as normals, not as displacement, it doesn't necessarily have to be projected in which case the low poly can be totally different. And even displacement can be done without subd, depending on renderer or on settings. For example you can have render time subdivision that does not smooth the topology (linear division). Use case matters. Some BG elements might look fine as decimated geometry that you don't displace. Some hero object that you want to subdivide at render time without the viewport-level mesh being very dense you may want to build as subd.
- IMO you should triangulate ngons if using different packages to define that triangulation because various softwares will interpret them differently and sometimes have issues. Like importing ngons into Zbrush you will be forced to triangulate all ngons.
In the end context really matters and I would avoid thinking in hard and fast rules like that.
@@abtyang I summed it up for beginners, obviously depends on use case as you can always just remesh if you're modeling hard surfaces for example (specially if you have zbrush). Still most ppl coming here seem new to Blender, let alone modeling, so a fast rule is better than no rule, specially about displacement maps as those are handled quite different in Blender.
@@Ebani I would not say that is accurate either, as zremeshing for hard surfaces is usually not sufficient, especially for the kind of models shown on this channel. Unless something is more organic like a leather piece or something and even so it's usually not an ideal approach, assuming you have enough time to build something properly - as even with recent improvements you still lose definition or get issues like spirals or odd edgeflow.
I only do some modeling in blender, but off some quick research it seems similar to Zbrush with respect to baking. I'd just point out that
1. for hard surface models like these usually the main forms are defined with the actual model, so displacement is often irrelevant, or
2. subtle details in hard surface are arguably better handled if baked as normal map detail, which does not require matching topological subd edge flow. and software like xnormal or handplane are free.
3. Whether or not you bake the actual displacement in Blender, many renderers handle things like I said (Arnold, Renderman for instance), and as more support Blender over time, it's good for people to be aware of this kind of thing. DCC not being equivalent to render engine. I often see people say things in regards to topology that is clearly inaccurately carried over wisdom from the past, mostly from pure modelers, and as someone who works in various steps of the pipeline, I think it is important that the next generation of artists think about things in a more detailed way like Josh does and encourages in this video.
3. if referring to procedural pre-render mesh displacement, like a blender displace modifier or procedural Houdini work yes you need even density.
Personally, I would rather have no rule than a fast inaccurate rule that someone will have to relearn later, but that's just me. Happy to agree to disagree and not get into it too much on youtube.
@@abtyang You're reading too much into my comment, i never said you needed displacements for hard surface models. Let's just agree to disagree.
Nice, as always good quality content. Thank you
With n-gons you will have a problem with symmetrize and reconstruct in ZBrush
No doubt about it!
do videos like this employ macro recorders?
it seems humanly impossible to be that quick and precise moving the mouse around.
either way, they're a pain to follow... slow down.
What do you mean... that's gold, not a video. For people looking to understand better why hard surface modelling can be good and even better in some cases than subd. Ofc subd is way cleaner and that type of models can bu used everywhere: organics, explosions, all types of simulations, animation, deformayions etc. Hops abs box cutter workflow will not work in that case, however if you need static mesh, why the fk would you spend ageess on a model when you can use different pipelin(hops, cutter modelling, triangulation, uv unwrqpping texturing etc.). Just seems retarded to waste time when you need simple static model, or even game asset.
You are here telling that this tutorial is hard to follow, mate you didn't even understand the purpose of this video, it is not for beginners, he even mentions that you should click away if ur a beginner... for me all the technical things are already in my blood so I can focus only of that he is talking.
It sounds strange. Can you find out who the video is for? If for experienced, then for them this topic is not relevant. If for beginners, then everything on the screen is too lightning fast, many non-standard (not installed by default) extensions are used. And of course it's interesting, but unfortunately the whole process will have to be disassembled in slow motion, trying to find the tools used.
It's for people who know how to use blender, what buttons to push etc and are asking more high level questions about workflows
lol now do it on a curved surface
Ok...so drop a weighted normal, use a bevel modifier...and stuff looks great with Blender...only. I really enjoy and had fun with this workflow. I did some models which i was happy with. Until I tried to export such model to a texturing program (where materials use curvature map etc). I spent 2 weeks trying to texture any ngon and booleaned model with bevels applied. A lot of frustration. Impossible. Stuff looks perfect in Blender but It seems it connot be texturized outside. Shading is drama. Stretched and „triangulated” shading.
Issue is your triangulations and unwraps. We are working on a big course to solve all these errors :)
@@JoshGambrell thx for the answer. Yaah, i guess You are right, probably some kind of normal data transfer as well. I tried many solution and failed so far. At this moment i have no idea what is bad uv map but it seems it also introduces some problems.
I am really frustrated about it. I don’t want to use my models for games now. I just want them to look in in texturing software like in Blender so with 3 step bevel, good shading and I want to able to paint it (I use 3DCoat). If You cover this I will pay for the course for sure.
Slow your roll by 90% and then I'm right there with ya :P
I start to worry when somebody who studied math's subtracts 14 from 22 and gets "close to 10" . May the lord help you if you start parametric modeling!! Great vid BTW
Huh, yeah Josh, people seem to get so hung up on the "it must be all quads" idea, that it actually hampers their creativity. I was using boolean cuts 20+ years ago in LightWave and the objects rendered perfectly. Being a (now) heavy user of Boxcutter and Hard Ops, I never worry about ngons at all. I still produce some stuff that needs to be rendered in software that won't even look at ngons, even flat ones (what a pain). The retopo process is ugly, to say the least. Weighted normals have been a more than welcome addition to Blender.
Yep. You achieve true freedom and creativity when you can bend the rules and know topology to the point where you can use whatever workflow you like. For beginners, it is easy to force bad habit running ngons and subsurf so I always encourage people to simply study topology. Not quads or ngons per se
All quads is a must for film assets, and it doesn't hamper creativity as usually concept art is made with bad topology, you just trace over it with quad modelling.
Can whe have best tutorials about topology in UA-cam?!
Impossible!!!!!! HERE IS THE PLACE!!!!
I hate when he say when i was 14 🦊 who cares bro just show me tutorial
you dont have video of yourself modelling anything practical across all of your videos, website or ebooks