Very informative presentation. There was also a French tuba in C, one whole step above the euphonium/tenor tuba. This was used in French orchestras up until the 1960's. It had 6 valves to enable it to get the low notes.
The definition of a Tuba is an instrument with a large upright flared bell & conical tubing throughout the main body of the instrument. That said, there are different types of Tubas. From the Triple Eb (EEEb) Sub Contrabass Tuba (Octo Contra-Alto) all the way up to Bb Soprano Tuba. Of it has conical tubing and an upright bell, it's a Tuba. Yes, a Euphonium is a Tenor Tuba pitched in Bb Tenor, no it is not the same thing as a Baritone Horn.
08:23 WRONG! Even though very rare, there are rotary valve full compensating tubas out there. They are strange but work as well as their piston counterparts nonetheless. And great video by the way. Very informative! It's what I've been saying for years academically! Keep up the good work!
Actually, tuba is Latin for Tuba! It was a conical bore straight instrument used by the Roman military for signaling. It can be traced as the ancestor of the military bugle and therefore the tuba family!
A trumpet and a tuba are not the same things though. Piccolo and garklein are essentially synonyms, one being an Italian term with the other being a German term. Garklein is usually only reserved for the recorder.
This guy is right Wanna know why? The millions of piccolo instruments Look up piccolo trumpet, tuba, trombone, clarinet, saxophone... the list goes on.
For years I owned an E-flat alto fluegelhorn, pitched the same as an E-flat alto horn. They would fit your definition of an alto tuba, as they were both basically conical bore, and both could actually play the pedal note. For years I also played regular tuba as well as euphonium, trombone, horn, and cornet. They were all fun, and I became disabled so I no longer play in public. I don't understand why if a French Horn can be made as a compensating double with rotary valves, why it also wouldn't work on lower brass like the C or B-flat tubas. The only reasons that I could see is that no soloist has asked that one be made, and it is not currently customary to do it that way, with a dual plane rotary valve like a horn.
I read that rotary compensating tubas were attempted but the design and weight of the valves was too poor. I play a compensating (3+1 piston) Bb tuba pretty frequently and they are uncooperative instruments. I can definitely imagine compensating rotors not being viable
Cornets and trumpets that have the same transpositions of tubas: Bb Piccolo Flugelhorn = Piccolo Cornet and Piccolo Trumpet, Eb Sopranino Flugelhorn = Sopranino Cornet and Sopranino Trumpet, Bb Soprano Flugelhorn = Soprano Cornet and Soprano Trumpet, Eb Alto Euphonium = Alto Horn and Alto Trumpet, Bb Tenor Euphonium = Baritone Horn and Bass Trumpet, Eb Bass Tuba = Bass Cornet and Contrabass Trumpet, Bb Contrabass Tuba = Contrabass Cornet and Contrabass Trumpet, Eb Subcontrabass Tuba = Subcontrabass Cornet and Subcontrabass Trumpet, Bb Subcontrabass Tuba = Subcontrabass Cornet and Subcontrabass Trumpet, If all of those members exist, they would complete those families.
Cimbassos in F, Eb, CC, and BBb are the bass and contrabass members of the trumpet family. Trombones are also effectively alto, tenor, and bass trumpets, in terms of bore profile if not their method of adding tubing. Trombone is just Italian for "big trumpet". An argument can be made that modern trumpets and cornets are really the same family of instrument. Modern trumpets only have like 1/5 truly cylindrical tubing, and any slight differences in the rate of conical expansion are laughably small in comparison to the difference between 6/4 York tubas and slender British tubas. A large part of the difference these days is in mouthpiece design, and I'd bet you can get a similar degree of difference between something like a Bach 12E and 5G on tenor trombone.
Well, it is and it kind of isn't. Historically, it's been a descant horn in Eb-F alto. The modern instrument created by Kanstul has its origin in the (alto) flugelhorn type instruments, just with a big ass bell. So maybe 50-50?!😁😀 Plus that the sound is different as well. He didn't mention sound quality, but that's also a big determining factor to whether an instrument is in the tuba family or not!
I am very persnickety about my nomenclature. I am a tenor trombonist! Just because my bone has a trigger doesn't mean I identify as a bass trombonist! I'm joking, I'm one of two trombonists with a trigger in my community band, so I'm a bass chump. :(
Also because I like leaving comments, my trombone teacher says he has a five octave range on his trumpet, from double pedal to double high C. I've heard him do a lot of pedals, and no. They aren't musical. But Trombones, the superior instrument, sound "decent" in the pedal range, and I've seen down to pedal G written, this was in a trombone quartet for a bass trombone.
Fun fact: your trigger trombone is actually bigger in bore than Bass Trombones were in the 19th century, so realistically, it could be considered a Bass for works like Wagner, Bruckner, and Mahler.
Bandestration That is fun! Where does that leave the double trigger basses. I assumed that the F attachment technically made any trombone a bass, but would D be make it some horror like a Contra alto? Because alto bones are in Eb. And contrabass would still be contrass? I don't know
The 2nd valve (in G or Gb) simply exists to make sure that B1 is playable as so much of the literature for true Bass Trombone calls for that note. It's not playable with just an F attachment. The 2nd valve is a more modern addition coming about only in the 1950s whereas the 1st valve was present in the later part of the 1800s.
Jeff The Meme Slayer Miraphone produces a relatively famous brand of tuba. They're decent, but can also be bad depending on what model you're playing. They're in-between intermediate and professional quality.
F, Eb, CC and BBb tubas are all of different sizes, and as far as register, this is a larger difference in register between a F tuba and a BBb tuba than between a Euphonium and F tuba. A Euphonium plays a perfect 4th above a F tuba, whereas an F tuba plays a perfect 5th above a BBb tuba. If the Euphonium isn't a Tuba, does that mean a F Tuba isn't a tuba as well? Then what is it? If it's a Tuba, then why isn't the Euphonium? What construction design of a Euphonium sets it apart from the Tuba family?
I present a counter argument. I suggest that they are in fact horns." Eb flugel = sopranino horn Bb flugel = Soprano horn F/eb alto/tenor horns Baritone horn and then tubas as various basses and contrabasses
The Alto and Baritone Horns do not have the same characteristics as do the other instruments. The others have a conical bore with an even, wide taper, while the Alto and Baritone Horns have a narrow and uneven taper. They are essentially cornets.
I would say the tuba is a bass horn. Tuba is a specific variant on the horn family. The flugelhorn, which is actually the soprano saxhorn, is like a cornet with more flare in the bore and a deeper mouthpiece. Traditionally, brass winds are divided into horns, with conical bores, and trumpets, with cylindrical bores. French horns, by demanding to just be "horns", fouled up the system.
I get your point but why waste your time reading the essay long name when you can say flugelhorn? And if it is a piccolo trumpet than how is it also a piccolo tube?
The Subcontras have never proven to be actually useful instruments. They go into a range that is beyond human capability. A true Alto Euphonium doesn't exist, or is so rare as to practically not exist.
If you're referring to the fundamental, then yes, but the rest of the sound can still be heard. Same with an octobass, octocontra clarinets, and Richard's future subcontrabassoon. The problem is, they don't sound like notes anymore due to the octave harmonics being overpowered by the rest (especially clarinets). I know alto euphoniums don't exist, which is why I plan to create one in the future.
The Alto Tuba does exist already (sort of) - the E flat Alto Flugelhorn. Although the instrument is rare - it still does actually exist. There is a virtuoso for the instrument called Pip Easthop I think his name is. Lowest note A2 written F#3.
that definition doesn't work, Eb tubas are Tubas, yet they are pitched higher than Bb tubas, and are usually used together in the same ensemble. So because something is a tuba doesn't mean its the lowest pitched brass instrument in the band.
One thing, Flugelhorns don’t use the same kind of mouthpiece as tubas. Tubas use deep bowl cup mouthpieces and flugels have v cup, almost French horn shaped, mouthpieces. Still an interesting thought to call it a soprano tuba
I would argue that the flügelhorn, sousaphone or contrabass bugle don't meet one common rules of what the "real" tuba is. The fact that they are all played in an upright position. The flügelhorn is played in a forward facing position and is therefor not a tuba. (If anything is misspelled feel free to correct me)
Shape isn't an essential characteristic for an instrument unless it fundamentally changes the sound of the instrument. A flugelhorn re-wrapped to be in the shape of a traditional tuba will not play any differently than it does in the standard configuration. A curved soprano saxophone and a straight soprano saxophone are not two fundamentally different instruments, just variations on a theme.
It's not a fully conical bore instrument. It's much more akin to the cornet (as opposed to the flugelhorn). Instruments larger than the Bb Contrabass Tuba have not proven to be useful, which is why I've left them out.
There are actually. I spoke with Kanstul about two weeks ago about such an instrument they have in their line up. It's hidden in their marching lineup, but their "marching alto" is essentially a wide bore Alto Flugelhorn.
I think the trombone has a cylindrical bore due to the fact that it must or the slide mechanism would not function, therefore it’s more similar to a Trumpet and would not fit the definition.
"Wait, it's all tuba?"
"Always has been."
Very informative presentation. There was also a French tuba in C, one whole step above the euphonium/tenor tuba. This was used in French orchestras up until the 1960's. It had 6 valves to enable it to get the low notes.
The definition of a Tuba is an instrument with a large upright flared bell & conical tubing throughout the main body of the instrument. That said, there are different types of Tubas. From the Triple Eb (EEEb) Sub Contrabass Tuba (Octo Contra-Alto) all the way up to Bb Soprano Tuba. Of it has conical tubing and an upright bell, it's a Tuba. Yes, a Euphonium is a Tenor Tuba pitched in Bb Tenor, no it is not the same thing as a Baritone Horn.
08:23 WRONG! Even though very rare, there are rotary valve full compensating tubas out there. They are strange but work as well as their piston counterparts nonetheless. And great video by the way. Very informative! It's what I've been saying for years academically! Keep up the good work!
Would they use a system similar to cheap Getzen french horns that I've seen?
What Is A Tuba? Fun to play
in fact, tuba is the latin for trumpet
Actually, tuba is Latin for Tuba! It was a conical bore straight instrument used by the Roman military for signaling. It can be traced as the ancestor of the military bugle and therefore the tuba family!
Actually I might call that piccolo trumpet a Garklein tuba. Amazing video structure as always!
A trumpet and a tuba are not the same things though. Piccolo and garklein are essentially synonyms, one being an Italian term with the other being a German term. Garklein is usually only reserved for the recorder.
ahhh. thanks for the explanation :D
This guy is right
Wanna know why?
The millions of piccolo instruments
Look up piccolo trumpet, tuba, trombone, clarinet, saxophone... the list goes on.
Does that mean that the French C Tuba, C Euphonium (Exists but is extremely rare) and the C bass Flügelhorn would sound pretty much the same?
They are all variations on a theme. More or less the same, but the devil is in the details.
Is it possibel to take the valve mechanism from the F/Bb (double) french horn to create something like a Bb/F compensating tuba with rotary valves?
Thank you. The best enformation I got that was very good and helpful 😁
For years I owned an E-flat alto fluegelhorn, pitched the same as an E-flat alto horn. They would fit your definition of an alto tuba, as they were both basically conical bore, and both could actually play the pedal note. For years I also played regular tuba as well as euphonium, trombone, horn, and cornet. They were all fun, and I became disabled so I no longer play in public. I don't understand why if a French Horn can be made as a compensating double with rotary valves, why it also wouldn't work on lower brass like the C or B-flat tubas. The only reasons that I could see is that no soloist has asked that one be made, and it is not currently customary to do it that way, with a dual plane rotary valve like a horn.
There are compensating BBb tubas, but their weight is not to be overlooked..
I read that rotary compensating tubas were attempted but the design and weight of the valves was too poor. I play a compensating (3+1 piston) Bb tuba pretty frequently and they are uncooperative instruments. I can definitely imagine compensating rotors not being viable
I AM NOT PERSNICKETY ABOUT MY STARIGHT BORE Bb TENOR TROMBONE
And this is why we can't have nice things.
I played an F1 on the euphonium, so I don't know if it does it justice to call it a tenor tuba, maybe a baritone tuba.
Cornets and trumpets that have the same transpositions of tubas: Bb Piccolo Flugelhorn = Piccolo Cornet and Piccolo Trumpet,
Eb Sopranino Flugelhorn = Sopranino Cornet and Sopranino Trumpet,
Bb Soprano Flugelhorn = Soprano Cornet and Soprano Trumpet,
Eb Alto Euphonium = Alto Horn and Alto Trumpet,
Bb Tenor Euphonium = Baritone Horn and Bass Trumpet,
Eb Bass Tuba = Bass Cornet and Contrabass Trumpet,
Bb Contrabass Tuba = Contrabass Cornet and Contrabass Trumpet,
Eb Subcontrabass Tuba = Subcontrabass Cornet and Subcontrabass Trumpet,
Bb Subcontrabass Tuba = Subcontrabass Cornet and Subcontrabass Trumpet, If all of those members exist, they would complete those families.
Cimbassos in F, Eb, CC, and BBb are the bass and contrabass members of the trumpet family. Trombones are also effectively alto, tenor, and bass trumpets, in terms of bore profile if not their method of adding tubing. Trombone is just Italian for "big trumpet".
An argument can be made that modern trumpets and cornets are really the same family of instrument. Modern trumpets only have like 1/5 truly cylindrical tubing, and any slight differences in the rate of conical expansion are laughably small in comparison to the difference between 6/4 York tubas and slender British tubas. A large part of the difference these days is in mouthpiece design, and I'd bet you can get a similar degree of difference between something like a Bach 12E and 5G on tenor trombone.
The mellophone was missed aka Alto Flugelhorn and Alto Tuba
Well, it is and it kind of isn't. Historically, it's been a descant horn in Eb-F alto. The modern instrument created by Kanstul has its origin in the (alto) flugelhorn type instruments, just with a big ass bell. So maybe 50-50?!😁😀 Plus that the sound is different as well. He didn't mention sound quality, but that's also a big determining factor to whether an instrument is in the tuba family or not!
That is good to know I am still trying to learn everything I can about instruments.
Btw, you can have a Bb tuba with 3, or 4 piston valves
This also is not a compensating tuba
I am very persnickety about my nomenclature. I am a tenor trombonist! Just because my bone has a trigger doesn't mean I identify as a bass trombonist! I'm joking, I'm one of two trombonists with a trigger in my community band, so I'm a bass chump. :(
Also because I like leaving comments, my trombone teacher says he has a five octave range on his trumpet, from double pedal to double high C. I've heard him do a lot of pedals, and no. They aren't musical. But Trombones, the superior instrument, sound "decent" in the pedal range, and I've seen down to pedal G written, this was in a trombone quartet for a bass trombone.
Fun fact: your trigger trombone is actually bigger in bore than Bass Trombones were in the 19th century, so realistically, it could be considered a Bass for works like Wagner, Bruckner, and Mahler.
Bandestration That is fun! Where does that leave the double trigger basses. I assumed that the F attachment technically made any trombone a bass, but would D be make it some horror like a Contra alto? Because alto bones are in Eb. And contrabass would still be contrass? I don't know
The 2nd valve (in G or Gb) simply exists to make sure that B1 is playable as so much of the literature for true Bass Trombone calls for that note. It's not playable with just an F attachment. The 2nd valve is a more modern addition coming about only in the 1950s whereas the 1st valve was present in the later part of the 1800s.
Bandestration Cool! This is why I like your website :)
The rotary valve tuba is called a tuba because it is a tuba
In the orchestra, the Euphonium is really a tenor tuba
what exactly is a miraphone because I play it
Miraphone is a German wind instrument manufacturer (currently, just brass instrument I believe). Other than that, you'll have to be more specific.
Jeff The Meme Slayer Miraphone produces a relatively famous brand of tuba. They're decent, but can also be bad depending on what model you're playing.
They're in-between intermediate and professional quality.
@@isaac_tuba It also depends on the player. Some people work well with what Miraphones have to offer, such as Øystein Baadsvik, and others may not.
Call me a noob, but doesn’t the definition of tuba also refer to the register and size of the instrument?
F, Eb, CC and BBb tubas are all of different sizes, and as far as register, this is a larger difference in register between a F tuba and a BBb tuba than between a Euphonium and F tuba.
A Euphonium plays a perfect 4th above a F tuba, whereas an F tuba plays a perfect 5th above a BBb tuba. If the Euphonium isn't a Tuba, does that mean a F Tuba isn't a tuba as well? Then what is it? If it's a Tuba, then why isn't the Euphonium? What construction design of a Euphonium sets it apart from the Tuba family?
Who is the most notable musician of the flugelhorn? Mainly in the jazz genre.
Yes piccolo trumpet can definitely play pedal notes..
I really wish the C Tuba was standard. I want to be orchestral, not band :(
My band uses C Tubas, I'm surprised that Bb Tuba is standard lol
@@spicywatermelon343 yeah it's a :( moment
@@mason11198 You can make any tuba sound great if you work hard enough! Daniel Ridder plays a BBb as one of his main tubas!
I present a counter argument. I suggest that they are in fact horns."
Eb flugel = sopranino horn
Bb flugel = Soprano horn
F/eb alto/tenor horns
Baritone horn
and then tubas as various basses and contrabasses
The Alto and Baritone Horns do not have the same characteristics as do the other instruments. The others have a conical bore with an even, wide taper, while the Alto and Baritone Horns have a narrow and uneven taper. They are essentially cornets.
I don't want to agree purely because I cannot believe I forgot about cornets....
Thanks for the reply
*laughs in funnel shaped Helleberg*
Is the flugelhorn really a soprano tuba?
Yes it is.
It’s funny, I would say it seems more of an alto pitch, but I’m not that informed on brass.
@@mchenrymaney262 It's the same pitch as a Bb clarinet
I would say the tuba is a bass horn. Tuba is a specific variant on the horn family.
The flugelhorn, which is actually the soprano saxhorn, is like a cornet with more flare in the bore and a deeper mouthpiece.
Traditionally, brass winds are divided into horns, with conical bores, and trumpets, with cylindrical bores.
French horns, by demanding to just be "horns", fouled up the system.
i have heard of a euphonium called a tenor tuba
I get your point but why waste your time reading the essay long name when you can say flugelhorn? And if it is a piccolo trumpet than how is it also a piccolo tube?
He said that because the original piccolo trumpet had the fundamentals of a tuba
I miss my tuba so much 🥺🥺🥺🥺🥺🥺🥺
What about the sousaphone
In a couple comments he did say that it is a tuba because the shape has nothing to do with it unless it changes the sound
Adding the (extremely rare) subcontrabass tubas (both Eb and Bb), and an (non-existent) alto euphonium would complete this family.
The Subcontras have never proven to be actually useful instruments. They go into a range that is beyond human capability. A true Alto Euphonium doesn't exist, or is so rare as to practically not exist.
If you're referring to the fundamental, then yes, but the rest of the sound can still be heard. Same with an octobass, octocontra clarinets, and Richard's future subcontrabassoon. The problem is, they don't sound like notes anymore due to the octave harmonics being overpowered by the rest (especially clarinets). I know alto euphoniums don't exist, which is why I plan to create one in the future.
I'm not referring to the fundamental at all. Human lips simply cease to work down that low.
Okay, I see now. You're right about the human lips limitations, since I can't buzz any lower than G0=24.5 Hz. They also limit the high notes as well.
The Alto Tuba does exist already (sort of) - the E flat Alto Flugelhorn. Although the instrument is rare - it still does actually exist. There is a virtuoso for the instrument called Pip Easthop I think his name is. Lowest note A2 written F#3.
I'm a tuba player. You did miss a part of the definition of a tuba. It is also the lowest brass instrument in the band. Good video though.
that definition doesn't work, Eb tubas are Tubas, yet they are pitched higher than Bb tubas, and are usually used together in the same ensemble. So because something is a tuba doesn't mean its the lowest pitched brass instrument in the band.
One thing, Flugelhorns don’t use the same kind of mouthpiece as tubas. Tubas use deep bowl cup mouthpieces and flugels have v cup, almost French horn shaped, mouthpieces. Still an interesting thought to call it a soprano tuba
Plenty of tuba players use deep funnels such as the Helleberg, though they are not french horn like.
Brass bass
I would argue that the flügelhorn, sousaphone or contrabass bugle don't meet one common rules of what the "real" tuba is. The fact that they are all played in an upright position. The flügelhorn is played in a forward facing position and is therefor not a tuba. (If anything is misspelled feel free to correct me)
Shape isn't an essential characteristic for an instrument unless it fundamentally changes the sound of the instrument. A flugelhorn re-wrapped to be in the shape of a traditional tuba will not play any differently than it does in the standard configuration. A curved soprano saxophone and a straight soprano saxophone are not two fundamentally different instruments, just variations on a theme.
Alto Horn,FFF Tuba
Is that a question?
No,just listing more tubas;unless Alto horn isn't conically bored.
It's not a fully conical bore instrument. It's much more akin to the cornet (as opposed to the flugelhorn). Instruments larger than the Bb Contrabass Tuba have not proven to be useful, which is why I've left them out.
that leads me to ask why there aren't more conical tenor/alto horns? wouldn't be a distinct enough voice from the french horns perhaps?
There are actually. I spoke with Kanstul about two weeks ago about such an instrument they have in their line up. It's hidden in their marching lineup, but their "marching alto" is essentially a wide bore Alto Flugelhorn.
Just because you can doesn't mean you should
I play a dual trigger bass trombone with a tuba mouthpiece, does that make me a tuba player?
Ummm... no.
Alex Burton
Does the tuba not have to be conically bored instrument with an even taper? A trombone does not do that.
I think the trombone has a cylindrical bore due to the fact that it must or the slide mechanism would not function, therefore it’s more similar to a Trumpet and would not fit the definition.
No the Tubas a big baritone
The baritone has a cylindrical bore up until the bell flare. The tuba has a conical bore. So does the euphonium. So the tuba isn't a big baritone.
Not all tubas are connical bore
Could you please show me one that isn't. I know of none that are cylindrical bore.
That would be a contrabass saxhorn, not a tuba. It's like saying "not all cornets are conical".