Time Stamps : 0:00 Jeff Brown 1:10 Connect with Jeff 1:28 How Jeff acquired Spanish w/o learning it 4:20 Why many to learn a language 5:53 What is TPR? 7:56 What is TPRS? (Interesting) 14:30 Jeff's opinion on grammar 18:04 Why correction doesn't work 20:49 When to start reading and writing in the target language 23:15 Flashcards - do they work? 24:37 What about Anki? 26:14 What are Sweet 16 verbs? Why you need them 28:44 What is Pop-up grammar 30:08 Why you need to learn a language like a baby 32:07 When to speak in your target language? 33:58 Why Duolingo sucks! 36:20 Is online language acquisition possible? 39:29 I am not intelligent. Can I acquire a language? 41:28 WHen to start reading? 42:07 7-Day Challenge
I don't understand his claim that you can't practise pronunciation. You absolutely can - but you have to do it systematically the way accent coaches train actors. I know a guy who was struggling to learn a difficult sound in Czech. He hired a speech therapist for a few hours and mastered it with a systematic series of exercises. I have another friend who learned near-native Mandarin with extensive accent coaching. Whether you want to invest the time is another question, provided natives can understand you. But it's certainly doable.
I love TPRS books they are great once you have 300 - 500 words acquired, start with the most basic and work your way up to more advanced ones. Great stories very entertaining, lots of the vocabulary you need in the most common structures and you can get audio versions of the most popular books, great resource.
I like this video. I do think for vocabulary a person should attempt to acquire the most frequent words. Once they start with that, they will hear those words over and over during conversation, whether in media or regular speech live. Similar to the idea of acquiring the sweet sixteen verbs. Yes and No are likely the first two words.
fluency (automaticity) stems from knowing the how, when and why of any language (its lexicon, grammar, nuances, culture, etc), and that's the long-term memory (brains stem) which is intuitive and instinctive...gaining proficiency is what we've all been conditioned to do, which is just the what (anyone can remember or recall a fact or information, but knowing how, why and when to use it is more complex - ergo why it's optimal to ACQUIRE language naturally --- at its root is communication ~ 80-sth% of communication is body language...this is why acquisition [i.e. meaning-making rather than just definition-finding] is doable)
I like J Brown. I think his final 7 day challenge might be the best tip of all because so little of us get past flashcards and dumb apps focusing on single words and sentences. But I would say reading + reading/listening at the same time of ANY CONTENT I WANT has been the biggest game changer for me. Not just watching ABC songs, or listening to the cow jumped over the moon stories. Why? Because it's really difficult to find that 90% comprehensible input that he mentions. And dont worry if the reading isn't 90% comprehensible. Go through something short, translate all words you don't know. Read it again and guess what? It's 90-100% comprehensible the second time you read it. Rinse and repeat until you can read longer texts. But ya it really is best if you can do this paired with listening. But 100% listening for long term during alone time just sucks because as a VERY beginner you can't understand anything and it feels like a waste of time or the content is meant for babies and it's very boring. So, look for something of your interest and that is short. And you will make it 90% comprehensible yourself and then read/listen/watch to it again.
If I had experienced Jeff's approach in high school, I suspect the outcome would have been different. Think of all the students who "failed" at learning another language because of the structured but misguided approach. Thanks for this interview.
He clarified that. If it's a language with your same alphabet, then start reading as soon as you can comprehend a large percentage of what you are reading. If the target language does not have your same alphabet, do not start reading or writing until you are already fluent.
It's so amazing. I think this is the channel i was looking for. Although right now I am making mistakes. I really don't mind. I'll follow your lead and I will reach my goal in english. GREAT
The story about Queen Elizabeth cooking Alex's cat and getting spanked with a spatula had me laughing so hard haha. I can see how this method of storytelling is so effective
Honestly I monitor anyway, without grammar lol. I naturally just am self conscious about speaking. I do it anyway but even without grammar I do it. And I recently discovered I like grammar so I am going to start adding it in but I do like the idea of acquisition
I feel like this guy was kinda contradicting himself. He says grammar study doesn't work, but then says he drills common verbs, which is essentially drilling grammar. He says input is key but then says he speaks from day one. He says corrections don't work, but if he drills students in that way, surely he also corrects them in class, since the whole idea of 'drilling' is to get it right? Also, immersion is about naturally acquiring the whole language, rather than drilling narrow parts of the language, isn't it? Maybe I'm being a little harsh, but some things didn't really add up for me.
I don't see any contradictions in that, he says he "drills" vocabulary in context through repetition, there is no connection to the grammar at all. He says he does pop-up grammar but doesn't extensively study grammar rules. I agree that it wasn't perfectly explained but i still got the difference.
And where is the contradiction within: 'Input is key', and start 'speaking when you can'? If there is any confusion it stems from black and white thinking
Unfortunately Duolingo has made the "just use the stories" approach impossible: you have to earn enough "crowns" by completing the regular lessons in order to unlock more stories...
i really like his methods and approach but I also think that his reference points are based on his preference in learning, which will not work for all. I alsp think he misunderderstood the question about repetition and he answered thinking repetition was in referencient to learning how to pronounce words. However, repetiiion is quite important as he already refered to in being exposed to a word 40 or 50 times to aquire it naturally. I just wised that may language teachers had his knowledge of learning, even if they used different methods. Unfortuntely, too many teachers out there charging a price and having no real method in teaching any language,. Lots of language teacher simply try to have conversation with no real objective in what is being learned, let alone using assessments to measure student growth. Ask any language teacher "How many students have you guided to learn a language from A1 to B1? Most will be zero or they will evade from answering the question.
I want to learn only English i can understand everything..my speaking is very bad..im listening much reading as well..i'd like to use this mister's method ....
My only disagreement is with Duolingo. Not that you'll be fluent after using it, but Jeff says to read and DL has you reading from the start so I'm not seeing why that goes against what he says to do.
Because DL involves reading with translation. It will show the words in the target language but only matched with your native language. Reading purely in the target language relies on you comprehending what is in text without relying on the translation
Notes I've taken on Jeff Brown from this video and other videos Acquiring languages is not the same as learning languages Learning = grammar, vocabulary, rote memorization Acquiring = crazy novel memorable stories, commands, acting out stories, Comprehensible input Get a partner Start with clothing and colors Greetings Get children's stories Get magazines - With your partner, explain the pictures: What it is. What they are doing. Why they are doing it. Get recordings of children's stories - Make recordings - Do one funny story every day 10 - 20 hours, 40 - 50 hours per week TPR Commands Every baby in the world acquires language Trade languages with people ESL classes Craigslist Meetup Apps Rules No English - No corrections - they don't work If you can't figure it out, say "It's not important" in the target language and move on. No grammar - Grammar doesn't work, Children don't need formal grammar when they pickup languages. Grammar fades away. Why think of grammar first. Apps Rosetta Stone is boring. You can't use it for a long time. It misses the people. No interaction, no meta-communication. It's basically flashcards. Duolingo. It's 99% memorization. Memorization is not comprehensible input. Reading the dictionary doesn't work. Hope you enjoy!
I have to disagree on your statement, " repetition is a waste of time". I have studied and recalled sentences month after month without even having to look up the meanings. I even think about those sentences in my head.
It didn't sound like he knew what spaced repetition was. He responded by talking about repeating what a teacher says and practicing pronunciation, rather than respond to the actual question about distributed practice. He even followed up by saying that learning comes from lots of listening, which would be an argument _for_ and not against spaced repetition.
Any tips on how to learn language using comprehensive input during covid times, when it's more difficult to access native speakers and get language sessions in person?
You can start using graded readers in your target language to get some reading material. There are many available commercially, but you can also find websites that get you acces to texts of any difficulty level. This won't give you the deep immersion that would be possible with actual human interaction, but reading a lot will go a long way.
Hey, I have the same question. I`ll start using some materials, like the ones on this website (www.aakanee.com/illustrations.html), I`ll share the pdf with a tutor in Italki for example and have the person to explain it to me, describe it, ask me yes/no questions and the regular conversation on those situations. I`ll record the class and after I'll listen to it, trying to understand through the pictures and the phrases used etc and so acquire the language. =)
I have a couple of questions: How does he feel about language apps such as Busuu, since he mostly hates Duo Lingo and Rosetta Stone? How can you know how many words you know in a language if you don't use any apps or software and don't write anything down?
What his famous video and you'll see he could care less about language apps or knowing his word count. He only cares about tracking his time listening and using the language.
All human bodies around the world have the same organs and the same ability to make the same sounds. There is no special organ that one human of a native language has different than another human in this world. If you are determined you can make the correct sounds in any language you learn. Sorry "acquire".
I think he wants to fix the way that people learn so much, that he pushes his logic too far. Grammar is good, just too much of it and too early into learning a language. For me I think it's easy to study a bit of grammar after a month of learning and then dedicate one day to it every once in a while. The main point for me is that the key to learning is to TRY to be communicative without being grammatically correct first and then learn gramar on top of it.
I feel his criticism of conscious grammar learning is a bit of a false dichotomy. Sure - if you learn formal rules and only do written exercises, then you won't learn to speak. That's because you haven't practised speaking! You can't learn to swim by reading a book and not getting wet. It's an idiotic approach. But if you take a pattern and immediately apply it to stories and useful dialogs that you learn to fluency, you're basically doing exactly what he does in his classroom. He's using pretty conventional grammar drilling through repetition - the only difference is that he's spicing it up with his surreal stories. That's certainly going to be more effective than the old FSI-style drills - because they were tedious. But the basic principles are the same. We're adults, not infants. Learning a pattern consciously helps to recognise it in our listening and use it in our speaking, provided we actually PRACTISE it! After all, it takes kids around 14 years of immersion to reach an adult level - so as adults we should be using every advantage we can to speed up the process.
The thumbnail for the video says "No grammer." Apparently, no spelling either. I think natural acquisition is a great idea. Ideally, a learner would begin with increasing comprehension of the spoken language. So, the typo is unfortunate. As for grammar, eventually a little here and there can be helpful.
in Jeff's original video, I see many people rationalising and overthinking the whole thing instead of just even giving it a try...it's not going to infect you and kill you. omfg
While I appreciate the knowledge shared during this interview, I have to say the interviewer needs to "slow down" when asking his questions and express his thoughts between questions. This will give us his views on what was just said while allowing Jeff to grab his mug and enjoy his beverage. Jess said several times, "Give me a second". You have to work on your interviewing skills my friend. Appreciate your efforts though.
Time Stamps :
0:00 Jeff Brown
1:10 Connect with Jeff
1:28 How Jeff acquired Spanish w/o learning it
4:20 Why many to learn a language
5:53 What is TPR?
7:56 What is TPRS? (Interesting)
14:30 Jeff's opinion on grammar
18:04 Why correction doesn't work
20:49 When to start reading and writing in the target language
23:15 Flashcards - do they work?
24:37 What about Anki?
26:14 What are Sweet 16 verbs? Why you need them
28:44 What is Pop-up grammar
30:08 Why you need to learn a language like a baby
32:07 When to speak in your target language?
33:58 Why Duolingo sucks!
36:20 Is online language acquisition possible?
39:29 I am not intelligent. Can I acquire a language?
41:28 WHen to start reading?
42:07 7-Day Challenge
so the best way to learn a language is by listening then look up words you dont know?
I don't understand his claim that you can't practise pronunciation. You absolutely can - but you have to do it systematically the way accent coaches train actors. I know a guy who was struggling to learn a difficult sound in Czech. He hired a speech therapist for a few hours and mastered it with a systematic series of exercises. I have another friend who learned near-native Mandarin with extensive accent coaching. Whether you want to invest the time is another question, provided natives can understand you. But it's certainly doable.
What I like about this podcast/interview is that the host lets the guest speaks and share his ideas and insights about the topic. To me that's good.
Thank you for your kind words 😊
@@bnsgokugreat
I believe you meant No Grammar in your video picture, not grammer ❤️
Love this guy! He soooo gets the human brain language wiring !!
Exactly! :)
most importantly, have fun and feel motivated while learning
One of the best motherfuc**** videos i've ever seen about learning languages. This guy knows a lot.
Thank you for watching!
I love TPRS books they are great once you have 300 - 500 words acquired, start with the most basic and work your way up to more advanced ones. Great stories very entertaining, lots of the vocabulary you need in the most common structures and you can get audio versions of the most popular books, great resource.
I like this video. I do think for vocabulary a person should attempt to acquire the most frequent words. Once they start with that, they will hear those words over and over during conversation, whether in media or regular speech live. Similar to the idea of acquiring the sweet sixteen verbs.
Yes and No are likely the first two words.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts!
fluency (automaticity) stems from knowing the how, when and why of any language (its lexicon, grammar, nuances, culture, etc), and that's the long-term memory (brains stem) which is intuitive and instinctive...gaining proficiency is what we've all been conditioned to do, which is just the what (anyone can remember or recall a fact or information, but knowing how, why and when to use it is more complex - ergo why it's optimal to ACQUIRE language naturally --- at its root is communication ~ 80-sth% of communication is body language...this is why acquisition [i.e. meaning-making rather than just definition-finding] is doable)
wow I rrecently watched "How to acquired the language" and Immediately caught my interest!
Awesome!!
Jeff is so quirked up and hokey in a beautiful way. I love how earnest he is especially given that he's a genuine polyglot.
Amazing interview. I'm learning English and I really loved every single question that you made, definitely helped me a lot.
Thank you 😊
The same here
I must to accept that this is the great interview about to acquire a language, thank you.
Glad you enjoyed it!
@20:00 liked it i faced the same thing , and i'm happy now i got it
I like how he always responds with Great Question.
I like J Brown. I think his final 7 day challenge might be the best tip of all because so little of us get past flashcards and dumb apps focusing on single words and sentences. But I would say reading + reading/listening at the same time of ANY CONTENT I WANT has been the biggest game changer for me. Not just watching ABC songs, or listening to the cow jumped over the moon stories. Why? Because it's really difficult to find that 90% comprehensible input that he mentions. And dont worry if the reading isn't 90% comprehensible. Go through something short, translate all words you don't know. Read it again and guess what? It's 90-100% comprehensible the second time you read it. Rinse and repeat until you can read longer texts. But ya it really is best if you can do this paired with listening. But 100% listening for long term during alone time just sucks because as a VERY beginner you can't understand anything and it feels like a waste of time or the content is meant for babies and it's very boring. So, look for something of your interest and that is short. And you will make it 90% comprehensible yourself and then read/listen/watch to it again.
Great questions from the interviewer 👍
Thank you 😊
Thank you very much for your video! Such interesting questions!! It's very useful!!
If I had experienced Jeff's approach in high school, I suspect the outcome would have been different. Think of all the students who "failed" at learning another language because of the structured but misguided approach. Thanks for this interview.
Thanks for watching
At one point he said "we don't do reading" and at another he said "we should start reading asap". What's that?
He clarified that.
If it's a language with your same alphabet, then start reading as soon as you can comprehend a large percentage of what you are reading.
If the target language does not have your same alphabet, do not start reading or writing until you are already fluent.
It's so amazing. I think this is the channel i was looking for. Although right now I am making mistakes. I really don't mind. I'll follow your lead and I will reach my goal in english.
GREAT
Oh wow! This is great! Thank you so much Annayya! You know I want to learn another language.🙂 Heho!
Thank you for watching this Chelli! I hope that it will benefit you while learning the language :D Hohe!
@@bnsgokugreat Yes! It's a great video! :D
Inka Chudled Anna Video...Ayna super😁😁
What a tremendous analysis and insights shared by Dr.Jeff. Good to hear this. Thanks bro for interviewing Jeff.
Thank you 😊
Great interview with Jeff Brown. Thank You!
Thank you for watching 😊
You are one of the best youtuber making interviews with high professional super humans thanks a lot for such professional persons...
Thank you for your kind words
at last
a very useful indian video clip on youtub
thank you very much
Glad it was helpful!
The story about Queen Elizabeth cooking Alex's cat and getting spanked with a spatula had me laughing so hard haha. I can see how this method of storytelling is so effective
Glad you enjoyed it!
Wow what an amazing interview. You asked such great questions and let him speak without interrupting him. Definitely going to subscribe.
Thank you :)
Honestly I monitor anyway, without grammar lol. I naturally just am self conscious about speaking. I do it anyway but even without grammar I do it. And I recently discovered I like grammar so I am going to start adding it in but I do like the idea of acquisition
I feel like this guy was kinda contradicting himself. He says grammar study doesn't work, but then says he drills common verbs, which is essentially drilling grammar. He says input is key but then says he speaks from day one. He says corrections don't work, but if he drills students in that way, surely he also corrects them in class, since the whole idea of 'drilling' is to get it right? Also, immersion is about naturally acquiring the whole language, rather than drilling narrow parts of the language, isn't it? Maybe I'm being a little harsh, but some things didn't really add up for me.
Agreed, he needs to be more clear!
Agreed 👍
I don't see any contradictions in that, he says he "drills" vocabulary in context through repetition, there is no connection to the grammar at all. He says he does pop-up grammar but doesn't extensively study grammar rules. I agree that it wasn't perfectly explained but i still got the difference.
And where is the contradiction within: 'Input is key', and start 'speaking when you can'? If there is any confusion it stems from black and white thinking
I watched a video for 1 hour long in his channel. He explained it how. You can check
Unfortunately Duolingo has made the "just use the stories" approach impossible: you have to earn enough "crowns" by completing the regular lessons in order to unlock more stories...
Oh!
I recently trolled about every Duolingo social media platform regarding that and no response. What a load of BS that was on their part.
Thanx for sharing very powerful & useful info Jeff Sir.
i really like his methods and approach but I also think that his reference points are based on his preference in learning, which will not work for all. I alsp think he misunderderstood the question about repetition and he answered thinking repetition was in referencient to learning how to pronounce words. However, repetiiion is quite important as he already refered to in being exposed to a word 40 or 50 times to aquire it naturally.
I just wised that may language teachers had his knowledge of learning, even if they used different methods. Unfortuntely, too many teachers out there charging a price and having no real method in teaching any language,. Lots of language teacher simply try to have conversation with no real objective in what is being learned, let alone using assessments to measure student growth.
Ask any language teacher "How many students have you guided to learn a language from A1 to B1? Most will be zero or they will evade from answering the question.
Very good video ! But when the seven challenge can you read subtitles ? (Pendant le challenge des 7 jours on peut lire les sous titres des vidéos?)
Excellent interview. Jeff really knows his stuff. Thank you!
42:50 "It´s been 7 days and 7 hours"
I want to learn only English i can understand everything..my speaking is very bad..im listening much reading as well..i'd like to use this mister's method ....
You can do it!
лучший учитель! жду когда он начнет учить русский)
My only disagreement is with Duolingo. Not that you'll be fluent after using it, but Jeff says to read and DL has you reading from the start so I'm not seeing why that goes against what he says to do.
Because DL involves reading with translation. It will show the words in the target language but only matched with your native language. Reading purely in the target language relies on you comprehending what is in text without relying on the translation
Great, you have such interesting guests :D
Taiyang Thank you Taiyang for always supporting me! I look forward to your comment every time 😊😊😊
Notes I've taken on Jeff Brown from this video and other videos
Acquiring languages is not the same as learning languages
Learning = grammar, vocabulary, rote memorization
Acquiring = crazy novel memorable stories, commands, acting out stories,
Comprehensible input
Get a partner
Start with clothing and colors
Greetings
Get children's stories
Get magazines - With your partner, explain the pictures: What it is. What they are doing. Why they are doing it.
Get recordings of children's stories -
Make recordings -
Do one funny story every day
10 - 20 hours, 40 - 50 hours per week
TPR
Commands
Every baby in the world acquires language
Trade languages with people
ESL classes
Craigslist
Meetup
Apps
Rules
No English -
No corrections - they don't work
If you can't figure it out, say "It's not important" in the target language and move on.
No grammar - Grammar doesn't work, Children don't need formal grammar when they pickup languages. Grammar fades away. Why think of grammar first.
Apps
Rosetta Stone is boring. You can't use it for a long time. It misses the people. No interaction, no meta-communication. It's basically flashcards.
Duolingo. It's 99% memorization. Memorization is not comprehensible input. Reading the dictionary doesn't work.
Hope you enjoy!
thank you sir I learning English 🙏TPRS
I have to disagree on your statement, " repetition is a waste of time". I have studied and recalled sentences month after month without even having to look up the meanings. I even think about those sentences in my head.
It didn't sound like he knew what spaced repetition was. He responded by talking about repeating what a teacher says and practicing pronunciation, rather than respond to the actual question about distributed practice. He even followed up by saying that learning comes from lots of listening, which would be an argument _for_ and not against spaced repetition.
every questions are great for Jeff
Amazing interview!!
Thank you!
The best!
Thank you :)
Great content!
Never Give Up Thank you! 😊
How many eggs you eat in a single day how many months you take for your full body transformation
Interesting discussion.
Excellent insights!
Glad it was helpful!
Thanks
Yes we are in
Any tips on how to learn language using comprehensive input during covid times, when it's more difficult to access native speakers and get language sessions in person?
You can start using graded readers in your target language to get some reading material. There are many available commercially, but you can also find websites that get you acces to texts of any difficulty level.
This won't give you the deep immersion that would be possible with actual human interaction, but reading a lot will go a long way.
Hey, I have the same question. I`ll start using some materials, like the ones on this website (www.aakanee.com/illustrations.html), I`ll share the pdf with a tutor in Italki for example and have the person to explain it to me, describe it, ask me yes/no questions and the regular conversation on those situations. I`ll record the class and after I'll listen to it, trying to understand through the pictures and the phrases used etc and so acquire the language.
=)
Super bro excellent 👌👌👌👌
Thank you 😊
I have a couple of questions:
How does he feel about language apps such as Busuu, since he mostly hates Duo Lingo and Rosetta Stone?
How can you know how many words you know in a language if you don't use any apps or software and don't write anything down?
It should occur to us through repetitive listening in some context
What his famous video and you'll see he could care less about language apps or knowing his word count. He only cares about tracking his time listening and using the language.
Queen Elizabeth makes tamales !!! Laughed My A off
:D
All human bodies around the world have the same organs and the same ability to make the same sounds. There is no special organ that one human of a native language has different than another human in this world. If you are determined you can make the correct sounds in any language you learn. Sorry "acquire".
Most people have two legs, just like Usain Bolt, so we should all be able to run as fast as Bolt.
@@LesserMoffHootkins You are comparing apples to watermelons. Nice try though.
What’s the most effective way to determine how many words you know in the language?
Count them.
He made a judgement about something he didn't even know about.... interesting.
I think he wants to fix the way that people learn so much, that he pushes his logic too far. Grammar is good, just too much of it and too early into learning a language. For me I think it's easy to study a bit of grammar after a month of learning and then dedicate one day to it every once in a while. The main point for me is that the key to learning is to TRY to be communicative without being grammatically correct first and then learn gramar on top of it.
How to use this approach with complete A0 beguinners?
I feel his criticism of conscious grammar learning is a bit of a false dichotomy. Sure - if you learn formal rules and only do written exercises, then you won't learn to speak. That's because you haven't practised speaking! You can't learn to swim by reading a book and not getting wet. It's an idiotic approach.
But if you take a pattern and immediately apply it to stories and useful dialogs that you learn to fluency, you're basically doing exactly what he does in his classroom. He's using pretty conventional grammar drilling through repetition - the only difference is that he's spicing it up with his surreal stories. That's certainly going to be more effective than the old FSI-style drills - because they were tedious. But the basic principles are the same.
We're adults, not infants. Learning a pattern consciously helps to recognise it in our listening and use it in our speaking, provided we actually PRACTISE it! After all, it takes kids around 14 years of immersion to reach an adult level - so as adults we should be using every advantage we can to speed up the process.
good
The thumbnail for the video says "No grammer." Apparently, no spelling either. I think natural acquisition is a great idea. Ideally, a learner would begin with increasing comprehension of the spoken language. So, the typo is unfortunate. As for grammar, eventually a little here and there can be helpful.
how does he know the meaning of words that are abstract? isnt it impossible to grasp it without checking the meaning..
How would you acquire a dead language like ancient Greek? It is no longer spoken.
So, at the end, I'm left with the question--- how do we start acquiring the language?
By listening and reading to it on a _massive_ scale. It's a _big_ time investment. Good luck. 🙂
in Jeff's original video, I see many people rationalising and overthinking the whole thing instead of just even giving it a try...it's not going to infect you and kill you. omfg
While I appreciate the knowledge shared during this interview, I have to say the interviewer needs to "slow down" when asking his questions and express his thoughts between questions. This will give us his views on what was just said while allowing Jeff to grab his mug and enjoy his beverage. Jess said several times, "Give me a second". You have to work on your interviewing skills my friend. Appreciate your efforts though.
WORK AT RESTAURANTS IN THE KITCHEN! 😀
What is the meaning of bnsgokugreat
Sir can you say pimples
No grammer? What about spelling?
Is "NO GRAMMER" on the thumbnail some kind of joke?