I can totally relate brother. I too was part of a " worship" band, and led worship for over ten years in a non-denominational church. It got to the point that the manipulation of the emotions, and the entertainment factor took the place of true worship in spirit and in truth. I remember one Sunday in particular, we played a song written by Bob Dylan called "Saved". As the song went on I saw people of all ages literally dancing, and jumping and if there had been chandelier, they would have been swinging from it. We had a lot of visitors that day and after the service one of them came up to me and said " I'll come every Sunday if you'll keep playing Bob Dylan. I was immediately convicted and asked God to forgive me for being part of this debacle. Not too long after that, I left and have never regretted it. I love the old, biblically sound, hymns and I even listen to Gregorian chant when I'm reading the word and praying. The difference is like day and night. God bless you.
Good video sir. Said what I felt. I've personally since found a home in the Catholic Church and I really appreciate the focus of worship being the Lord's table and not the songs, although the psalms we sing at mass are pretty and add to the beauty but is not the focus. God Bless you.
Great video man. I’m a former charismatic who is in the process of becoming Catholic, and my disillusionment with evangelical worship songs was one of the first things that drove me deeper to seek theological fortitude. I really loved many of the songs, but I often felt like the songs were superficial. You articulated what I was feeling extremely well. Thank you for your terrific video.
He's referring to the more philosophical notion of the effeminate. Generally speaking, the feminine tends to have traits of being more emotive, free flowing, softer, and chaotic. Which, none of those are necessarily bad, but they're the opposite of the masculine features, being ordered, structured, authoritative, and firm.
The “effeminate” quality of some worship music is shown in the lyrics like “heaven meets earth like a sloppy wet kiss” in the song “How He Loves”. It is also shown in the “Jesus is my boyfriend” line of lyrics that emphasize a romantic relationship with Jesus, not one of love, honor, and respect.
Always fun to come across a channel slowly drifting towards the Tiber. You'll be singing those Gregorian chants someday. :) You should check out Clamavi De Profundis's 'Lamentations of Jeremiah', I feel like you'd get a lot out of it.
Really important topic, thanks for articulating it all so well. Appreciate your grace with it too, when often people just weild this mindset as a club against the church. Thanks for taking the time to share!
It's not that we need older songs or styles of music; rather, it's that we need to recover the theological depth that manifested itself in the hymns of Wesley and Watts. Men of deep faith, conviction and holiness created expressions in words and music that reflected their own devotional lives and spiritual journeys. If we can't produce that today, it's because very few of us are living those kinds of deeply-marked lives. I can see the argument that sticking in the cultural milieu of the 18th century can reconnect us with some of what we're missing, but I see that as a partial answer that misses the larger question of why the body of Christ is expressing more lostness than soundness right now.
Brother, I can promise you with all my heart, soul, mind and being that God cares so much more about how you spend the 10,065 minutes a week vs the type of music you sing for 15 minutes a week
Former evangelical-turned-confessional Lutheran here I know exactly what you mean, because I went through something very similar. I actually wrote a book evaluating modern contemporary worship. It was amazing how much of it was actually geared to be emotionally manipulative rather than actual spiritual worship
Great vid bro. I’m a pastor in a charismatic church that even has a prayer room. Sounds like you were in a IHOP style stream, which we have been in as well. But we’ve been on a journey as examining what we’re actually doing. This vid was great
I have noticed this trend as well with the music sung in church. The pop-ificiation of the gospel message. A lot of churches it's just feel good music and feel good sermons. A big trend I don't like about modern Christian music is that it's all about ME. What I'm doing, or going to do. About how much "we love you God", when let's be real, in comparison to God, we don't love at all. We should sing about what HE has done. Who HE is. How he loves us. the Bible says there is none righteous, not even one. Our righteousness are like filthy rags. So why am I singing about all the things I've done, when the value of my actions or deeds only have value because of the work of Christ on the cross? What I have done is meaningless, comparatively speaking. I used to be in your shoes at as well and had all these same feelings about the music we sang.
Brother, you have struck a chord with me. I am a Preacher's Kid. We used to sing all of the old scripturally inspired worship songs and hymns, and as I grew up through the '90s, through all of the ecumenical movements, I was so turned off by the showmanship of it all. It seemed so fake to me. I left the church for years, and within the last couple of years, have gone back to church occasionally. Now, it's worse than ever. It's a production. It's all about feeling good for 90 minutes. I miss the truth.
Excellent brother! I think another point the modern evangelical church completely misses is the congregational nature of good church music. Most modern worship music is actually designed for radio, not for hundreds of voices to sing together. And, most of it cannot be sung unless it is carried by a worship band. Another thing that I have written about is the volume of church music. I’m not against loud music and think concerts are wonderful! But the trend in evangelicalism is for the worship band to overpower the voices of the people When it is precisely the voices of God’s people that should be the main instrument. The band should exist to accompany The voices of the people, not smother them. Think about it, the only command in the New Testament as it relates to church music is for God‘s people to sing. And yet, most modern worship bands are so loud that it actually hinders the very thing the New Testament commands. We can do better!
Gregorian chant is almost always Scripture, usually Psalms and Canticles from the Prophets and the Gospels, except for hymns. Believe me, almost anyone can chant! Go to the Church Music Association of America for resources in chanting in Latin, English and Spanish. See the St. Dunstan's Psalter, an Anglican, English publication for all the Psalms and Canticles you can sing every day monthly. Worship always for His glory. If you feel Him, great, but that's not the point. He is always everywhere to be praised, and offering His own Word is the only appropriate and perfect offering.
No one is going to play The Neal Morse Band in church but his music is great stuff. The songs "Broken Sky/Long Day reprise" and "A love that never dies" are wonderful for directing a person to look to GOD but, like you say, they don't belong in church.
I think using modern melody structures with rich theology can still be done… I love the hymns as a Methodist and have seen the shallowness of modern CCM but I do believe a modern melody with scripture and good theology and can be used today… but sorely lacking
I say this tongue and cheek, but I bet in 10 years you're going to say, guys I'm Catholic now. I feel once you start learning about church history there is a tendency to keep going further and further back, until you're reading the apostolic fathers, and the Didache. Personally, I am at the Anglican phase after deconstructing for a decade. I'd go all the way but, I really believe in female pastors, and I have a hard time giving up personal interpretation of scripture.
Reading the church fathers convinced me of classical Protestantism more than anything, but I appreciate the tongue in cheek. The Pentecostal to Roman Catholic pipeline is flowing these days. Many such cases
The way you mention your belief in female pastors and personal interpretation seems a little critical. If you think they may be obstacles on your journey, why not discard them? Genuine question, sir. It’s possible I am misunderstanding your stance on those things.
@@LogDogH I think women are able to be pastors. Essentially the Egalitarian view. I am unable to overcome the traditional protestant position of personal interpretation of scripture. I have a hard time submitting to bishops or the church. However I appreciate the logic and thoroughness the Catholic church put into their Catechism. But I have a hard time believing that the Magisterium is infallible. As for me I'm a bit all over the place theologically, the best I can say is embrace a good amount of theological liberalism, while maintaining the believe that Christ died for our sins. And that salvation is through Christ. baptism is the normative way to enter into that commitment, meaning that if you have the opportunity to do it, you need to do it, but if not then belief is enough. There's more, but I'm developing the language to talk about all this stuff. I spent the last 20 years deconstructing, and as I re entertain my commitment to God I'm wrestling with not being as zealous and litteral as I was before.
Dear brother Anthony… Why do you “believe in female pastors” so much that it would possibly keep you from going “all the way” in your spiritual walk? The Bible and both Jewish and Christian traditions are consistently opposed to the concept of female priests. I ask that you consider whether you have allowed insisting on female pastors being really important in the church to become an idol of its own. Does The Church need to be how we want it, support whatever sins we enjoy, massage our egos or individual sense of right and wrong, etc, for it to be right? That’s what led to the creation of the Anglican Church in the first place, after all: insistence on sin and hardheartedness, rather than being afflicted by our sins and led to repentance, confession, and restoration. Does God need to change His mind on the order of authority and headship he created from the beginning in order for us to agree that he’s right? Just some thoughts. I spent several years very early on in my walk in a denomination that really emphasized the “need” for female “pastors”. In that time, I saw a lot of closed Bible preaching, essentially nonexistent exegesis, and “cute”, emotional storytelling from the pulpit from the women trying to preach to the congregation. I also saw way too many marriages confused about headship within the home because of a disregard for what the Bible actually says about the leadership arrangement of the church. There was so much more bad. God doesn’t need, or even want, female pastors or else He would’ve made it painfully obvious in His word and throughout the entire history of His people. God does, however, want humility, repentance, and obedience from us. Would you possibly consider the possibility you’ve been hung up on a mistaken, rebellious concept and it’s just held you back? I pray you will. It’s a very common mistake that many have made, and I pray you’ll throw it right into the fire like anything else causing us to sin. I send you so much love. God bless you!
Check out Zac Fitzsimmons, The Corner Room, & Exodus Music - they do word-for-word Scripture songs, mainly focusing on the psalms. The Psalms Project also do psalms (obviously), but not entirely word-for-word.
You don't have to throw the baby out with the bathwater. I'm a contemporary worship leader who loves the hymns. I'm as at home playing a hymn as I am playing a contemporary worship song, and if you're willing to do the work, you can find a lot of good worship music being written today. But hymns are subject to the same criticisms as modern worship songs are. You can find hymns with very shallow theology, some which arguably contradict what Scripture teaches, some written by heretics (Isaac Watts reportedly denied the Trinity), etc.
Hey partner, you said you knew how to "conjure up" the feelings you were looking for. Have you ever considered that maybe this "conjuring up" is the same basis upon which your entire religion is based, regardless of any temporal format?
@@jhardeman4 nope. The Gospel of Jesus Christ has genuinely changed my life in a way I or anyone else could not have possibly conjured up or manufactured. You can manufacture a moment, and that’s my criticism. You can’t manufacture salvation from sin and hell, nor a genuine Christian life.
Modern worship may be the only good thing Christians are doing today; things are so bad today. The Bible says to sing unto the Lord a new song. David danced and played musical instruments, worshipping the Lord with all his might. There might be some songs that don't have good words, but I'm not aware of any.
I can totally relate brother. I too was part of a " worship" band, and led worship for over ten years in a non-denominational church. It got to the point that the manipulation of the emotions, and the entertainment factor took the place of true worship in spirit and in truth. I remember one Sunday in particular, we played a song written by Bob Dylan called "Saved". As the song went on I saw people of all ages literally dancing, and jumping and if there had been chandelier, they would have been swinging from it. We had a lot of visitors that day and after the service one of them came up to me and said " I'll come every Sunday if you'll keep playing Bob Dylan. I was immediately convicted and asked God to forgive me for being part of this debacle. Not too long after that, I left and have never regretted it. I love the old, biblically sound, hymns and I even listen to Gregorian chant when I'm reading the word and praying. The difference is like day and night. God bless you.
Good video sir. Said what I felt. I've personally since found a home in the Catholic Church and I really appreciate the focus of worship being the Lord's table and not the songs, although the psalms we sing at mass are pretty and add to the beauty but is not the focus. God Bless you.
Great video man. I’m a former charismatic who is in the process of becoming Catholic, and my disillusionment with evangelical worship songs was one of the first things that drove me deeper to seek theological fortitude. I really loved many of the songs, but I often felt like the songs were superficial. You articulated what I was feeling extremely well. Thank you for your terrific video.
Praying for your entrance to the church! Former IHOPPER now happily catholic.
Thanks for this. Question: you used the adjective “effeminate” a couple of times to describe the “modern worship” norm. Can you explain what you mean?
He's referring to the more philosophical notion of the effeminate. Generally speaking, the feminine tends to have traits of being more emotive, free flowing, softer, and chaotic. Which, none of those are necessarily bad, but they're the opposite of the masculine features, being ordered, structured, authoritative, and firm.
The “effeminate” quality of some worship music is shown in the lyrics like “heaven meets earth like a sloppy wet kiss” in the song “How He Loves”. It is also shown in the “Jesus is my boyfriend” line of lyrics that emphasize a romantic relationship with Jesus, not one of love, honor, and respect.
I was raised in a Pentecostal environment. My search for truth and Authentically Traditional Christianity led me to Catholicism.
Always fun to come across a channel slowly drifting towards the Tiber. You'll be singing those Gregorian chants someday. :) You should check out Clamavi De Profundis's 'Lamentations of Jeremiah', I feel like you'd get a lot out of it.
You have articulated so well what my heart has been convicting me of lately….thank you!
Really important topic, thanks for articulating it all so well. Appreciate your grace with it too, when often people just weild this mindset as a club against the church. Thanks for taking the time to share!
It's not that we need older songs or styles of music; rather, it's that we need to recover the theological depth that manifested itself in the hymns of Wesley and Watts. Men of deep faith, conviction and holiness created expressions in words and music that reflected their own devotional lives and spiritual journeys. If we can't produce that today, it's because very few of us are living those kinds of deeply-marked lives. I can see the argument that sticking in the cultural milieu of the 18th century can reconnect us with some of what we're missing, but I see that as a partial answer that misses the larger question of why the body of Christ is expressing more lostness than soundness right now.
Brother, I can promise you with all my heart, soul, mind and being that God cares so much more about how you spend the 10,065 minutes a week vs the type of music you sing for 15 minutes a week
Respectfully, this is the kind of attitude that destroys churches and shipwrecks the faith of the congregants.
Former evangelical-turned-confessional Lutheran here I know exactly what you mean, because I went through something very similar. I actually wrote a book evaluating modern contemporary worship. It was amazing how much of it was actually geared to be emotionally manipulative rather than actual spiritual worship
@@Outrider74 what’s the name of the book? Share for the class! Lol
Beneficial? Considerinf the Contemporary Worship Movement. My name is Jeremy Aiello. Thank you for allowing me to put that out!
Great vid bro. I’m a pastor in a charismatic church that even has a prayer room. Sounds like you were in a IHOP style stream, which we have been in as well. But we’ve been on a journey as examining what we’re actually doing. This vid was great
Thanks man. Yes, I was very involved with an IHOP style prayer room and The Call there for a while.
I have noticed this trend as well with the music sung in church. The pop-ificiation of the gospel message. A lot of churches it's just feel good music and feel good sermons. A big trend I don't like about modern Christian music is that it's all about ME. What I'm doing, or going to do. About how much "we love you God", when let's be real, in comparison to God, we don't love at all. We should sing about what HE has done. Who HE is. How he loves us.
the Bible says there is none righteous, not even one. Our righteousness are like filthy rags. So why am I singing about all the things I've done, when the value of my actions or deeds only have value because of the work of Christ on the cross? What I have done is meaningless, comparatively speaking.
I used to be in your shoes at as well and had all these same feelings about the music we sang.
Brother, you have struck a chord with me. I am a Preacher's Kid. We used to sing all of the old scripturally inspired worship songs and hymns, and as I grew up through the '90s, through all of the ecumenical movements, I was so turned off by the showmanship of it all. It seemed so fake to me. I left the church for years, and within the last couple of years, have gone back to church occasionally. Now, it's worse than ever. It's a production. It's all about feeling good for 90 minutes. I miss the truth.
Excellent brother! I think another point the modern evangelical church completely misses is the congregational nature of good church music. Most modern worship music is actually designed for radio, not for hundreds of voices to sing together. And, most of it cannot be sung unless it is carried by a worship band.
Another thing that I have written about is the volume of church music. I’m not against loud music and think concerts are wonderful! But the trend in evangelicalism is for the worship band to overpower the voices of the people When it is precisely the voices of God’s people that should be the main instrument. The band should exist to accompany The voices of the people, not smother them. Think about it, the only command in the New Testament as it relates to church music is for God‘s people to sing. And yet, most modern worship bands are so loud that it actually hinders the very thing the New Testament commands. We can do better!
Gregorian chant is almost always Scripture, usually Psalms and Canticles from the Prophets and the Gospels, except for hymns. Believe me, almost anyone can chant! Go to the Church Music Association of America for resources in chanting in Latin, English and Spanish.
See the St. Dunstan's Psalter, an Anglican, English publication for all the Psalms and Canticles you can sing every day monthly.
Worship always for His glory. If you feel Him, great, but that's not the point. He is always everywhere to be praised, and offering His own Word is the only appropriate and perfect offering.
You articulate my sentiment on this issue 100%.
No one is going to play The Neal Morse Band in church but his music is great stuff. The songs "Broken Sky/Long Day reprise" and "A love that never dies" are wonderful for directing a person to look to GOD but, like you say, they don't belong in church.
I think using modern melody structures with rich theology can still be done… I love the hymns as a Methodist and have seen the shallowness of modern CCM but I do believe a modern melody with scripture and good theology and can be used today… but sorely lacking
I say this tongue and cheek, but I bet in 10 years you're going to say, guys I'm Catholic now. I feel once you start learning about church history there is a tendency to keep going further and further back, until you're reading the apostolic fathers, and the Didache. Personally, I am at the Anglican phase after deconstructing for a decade. I'd go all the way but, I really believe in female pastors, and I have a hard time giving up personal interpretation of scripture.
Reading the church fathers convinced me of classical Protestantism more than anything, but I appreciate the tongue in cheek. The Pentecostal to Roman Catholic pipeline is flowing these days. Many such cases
The way you mention your belief in female pastors and personal interpretation seems a little critical. If you think they may be obstacles on your journey, why not discard them? Genuine question, sir. It’s possible I am misunderstanding your stance on those things.
@@LogDogH I think women are able to be pastors. Essentially the Egalitarian view. I am unable to overcome the traditional protestant position of personal interpretation of scripture. I have a hard time submitting to bishops or the church. However I appreciate the logic and thoroughness the Catholic church put into their Catechism. But I have a hard time believing that the Magisterium is infallible.
As for me I'm a bit all over the place theologically, the best I can say is embrace a good amount of theological liberalism, while maintaining the believe that Christ died for our sins. And that salvation is through Christ. baptism is the normative way to enter into that commitment, meaning that if you have the opportunity to do it, you need to do it, but if not then belief is enough. There's more, but I'm developing the language to talk about all this stuff. I spent the last 20 years deconstructing, and as I re entertain my commitment to God I'm wrestling with not being as zealous and litteral as I was before.
Dear brother Anthony… Why do you “believe in female pastors” so much that it would possibly keep you from going “all the way” in your spiritual walk?
The Bible and both Jewish and Christian traditions are consistently opposed to the concept of female priests. I ask that you consider whether you have allowed insisting on female pastors being really important in the church to become an idol of its own.
Does The Church need to be how we want it, support whatever sins we enjoy, massage our egos or individual sense of right and wrong, etc, for it to be right? That’s what led to the creation of the Anglican Church in the first place, after all: insistence on sin and hardheartedness, rather than being afflicted by our sins and led to repentance, confession, and restoration.
Does God need to change His mind on the order of authority and headship he created from the beginning in order for us to agree that he’s right? Just some thoughts.
I spent several years very early on in my walk in a denomination that really emphasized the “need” for female “pastors”. In that time, I saw a lot of closed Bible preaching, essentially nonexistent exegesis, and “cute”, emotional storytelling from the pulpit from the women trying to preach to the congregation.
I also saw way too many marriages confused about headship within the home because of a disregard for what the Bible actually says about the leadership arrangement of the church. There was so much more bad.
God doesn’t need, or even want, female pastors or else He would’ve made it painfully obvious in His word and throughout the entire history of His people. God does, however, want humility, repentance, and obedience from us.
Would you possibly consider the possibility you’ve been hung up on a mistaken, rebellious concept and it’s just held you back? I pray you will. It’s a very common mistake that many have made, and I pray you’ll throw it right into the fire like anything else causing us to sin.
I send you so much love. God bless you!
Check out Zac Fitzsimmons, The Corner Room, & Exodus Music - they do word-for-word Scripture songs, mainly focusing on the psalms. The Psalms Project also do psalms (obviously), but not entirely word-for-word.
You don't have to throw the baby out with the bathwater. I'm a contemporary worship leader who loves the hymns. I'm as at home playing a hymn as I am playing a contemporary worship song, and if you're willing to do the work, you can find a lot of good worship music being written today. But hymns are subject to the same criticisms as modern worship songs are. You can find hymns with very shallow theology, some which arguably contradict what Scripture teaches, some written by heretics (Isaac Watts reportedly denied the Trinity), etc.
Hey partner, you said you knew how to "conjure up" the feelings you were looking for.
Have you ever considered that maybe this "conjuring up" is the same basis upon which your entire religion is based, regardless of any temporal format?
@@jhardeman4 nope. The Gospel of Jesus Christ has genuinely changed my life in a way I or anyone else could not have possibly conjured up or manufactured. You can manufacture a moment, and that’s my criticism. You can’t manufacture salvation from sin and hell, nor a genuine Christian life.
Great video. CRAZY was thinking the same thing today. Seen this video on the top at the algorithm lol must be a sign lol
What church and band were you from?
Good podcast, good 👍🏻 stuff! God bless you..
Thanks man! Lord bless you as well!
Modern worship may be the only good thing Christians are doing today; things are so bad today.
The Bible says to sing unto the Lord a new song.
David danced and played musical instruments, worshipping the Lord with all his might.
There might be some songs that don't have good words, but I'm not aware of any.
It’s a long road to Damascus.