The role of Marxism in our time is why I think the Korihor story was included in the Book of Mormon. His arguments are exactly the same as critical theory. His arguments were 1) No God or Christ therefore everything devolves to power and power dynamics, 2) man can be shaped into the ideal through correct management of the creature, 3) the Nephite society was founded by a group of men that set up the society with institutions, structures, and a set of beliefs that were designed to keep themselves in power, 4) the people of the society were under a false consciousness of freedom when they were actually in bondage, 5) Korihor was there to awaken them to a consciousness of their bondage to the power structures of society and the social restrictions contained therein, 6) once you have the special knowledge to see the way the power structures keep people in bondage, then you can really be free, 7) Korihor then called them to a revolution against the Nephite society. That is Marxism.
That's what his real crime was: not doubting God, but agitating for this corrosion by mid-level violence (thanks to James Lindsay for naming it for me).
I taught Relief Society in our ward a couple of weeks ago. I’d just found your channel and binged a lot of the episodes. I did bring up the great and abominable church in the lesson. 😂 It was in CFM that week and also related to the talk we were discussing. Probably because of your videos, my mind definitely went to the abominable church being ANY ideology that pulls us away from Christ. While looking for a pic to represent the abominable church for a slide, I saw this quote in CFM from Pres. Oaks: “Because no religious denomination-Christian or non-Christian-has ever had “dominion” over all nations of the earth or the potential to bring all the saints of God down into “captivity,” this great and abominable church must be something far more pervasive and widespread than a single “church,” as we understand that term today. It must be any philosophy or organization that opposes belief in God. And the “captivity” into which this “church” seeks to bring the saints will not be so much physical confinement as the captivity of false ideas.”
This is from a BYU-I devotional (then Elder Oaks) delivered, titled Witnesses of God on February 24, 2014. A full 10 years ago…and more clear and easily seen today than a decade ago.
Thank you for that quote so much . So please does anyone know why some are teaching the great and abominal church is our church . ? Where do any of our leaders teach that the great and abominal church is our church ?
An acquaintance of mine who is (or was) a member was once defending the tenets of socialism to me by comparing it to the United Order. When I pointed out that the Order was entered into by covenant and by free choice rather than the force of government law, he opined that if people wouldn't do what is right voluntarily, they should be forced to. I was completely flabbergasted. It was like he completely forgot whose idea it was to force us into obedience.
Exactly. The United Order is a way of governing society where there will be no poor. Those able to contribute do it out of love for their brothers & sisters in the gospel, not from being forced to or having their goods appropriated or confiscated. Those who are poor are expected to work, if possible, and to be humble and grateful.
It's comforting that rather than forcing the righteous to other realms as refugees from a degenerate earth of forced conformity, that the earth will be cleansed periodically as it levels up, and the freely lawful righteous will inherit it. They did at the beginning of man, they will at its renewal, and they will again in its ultimate state. It's a special place and destined to be Celestial. Think Celestial!
Oh my, thank you for this!! I also read 'Wild Swans' years ago (as well as 'Spider Eaters' and 'Life and Death in Shanghai'). Starting in about 2015, the things I saw in my kid's public schools and universities sounded so much like these books! When I tried talking about this out loud, people reacted really poorly, like I was crazy. I've questioned my own sanity. ... I also remember from 'Wild Swans' - how they had students destroying everything beautiful - parks, gardens, art work - people couldn't even grow flowers.
In the 1960s Mao got the idea that birds ate the crops. So there was a massive campaign to kill all the birds. Following that there was a great famine because there was nothing to eat the bugs. That is why it is rare to see any birds when you go to China.
Years ago I suspected that Karl Marx was a likely candidate as a great false prophet, and nowadays I'm more convinced of that. And personally, I view the Great and Abominable Church as ANYTHING that contradicts the Lord's Church.
Awesome discussion! Misothiest is my new word. Atheist is not a fitting word for opponents of God who are infused with hatred and bile. If a person simply didn’t believe in God that person would live and let live. Many of these people are so consumed with a burning hatred for God and Christians which goes way beyond simple atheism.
Well, do you acknowledge that belief in “god” is superstition? And therefore to not believe is simply to opt out of superstition? And further that “atheist” really has no meaning because what is it that one is not believing? There’s no there there. On the other hand, the word antitheist does have meaning. It registers opposition to theism, which is the actions of men speaking for “god”, humankind’s longest running fraud.
What they hate is private property ownership and how some people have more than others. Equity is removing property from both and providing everything by the state.
I was just talking to my sister about this the other day. Her and my daughter are being led away by the “pulling on our heartstrings”. Strange times. Prophet says - Hear him. Think celestial. Overcome the world. Peacemakers needed. There is just So much philosophy of men mingled with scripture.
Many members of my family who still live in Africa are thriving because they have taken advantage of BYU Pathway. Uplifting and informative as always. Thanks Greg and Dan.
I remember Clayton Christensen talking about disruptive innovation in education, and predicted that distance learning would one day take over brick and morter universities. Interesting that Clayton Christensen and Kim Clark were colleagues at Harvard and then Kim Clark was called to go to BYUI and then as Church Comissioner of Education. This is when Pathways was established. If we're wondering if the brethren aren't aware of the problems in academia, pathways is the way to save Church education and and provide a college education for countless students around the globe. 0:01
Great way to start my day. Thank you gentlemen for helping me gain a better understanding of marxism. I feel like I need to keep my head on swivel because of how fast this seeps into our lives.
Isn't it interesting how Marx and those who influenced his thinking emerged around the same time as the restoration of the gospel? As Joseph Smith was seeking to find and consolidate all TRUTH, Marx and his ilk were seeking to define and consolidate truth's opposite. The Book of Mormon arrived at exactly the time the world would need it!
Yes, that is interesting, and I have thought about that too, but we must remember that God decides where and when each of us is born. So, I wonder why He had them born at the time that He did. It was not by chance.
Here's a snip-bit of a talk then "Elder" Benson gave in Oct 79: A Witness and a Warning It is well to ask, what system established secret works of darkness to overthrow nations by violent revolution? Who blasphemously proclaimed the atheistic doctrine that God made us not? Satan works through human agents. We need only look to some of the ignoble characters in human history who were contemporary to the restoration of the gospel to discover fulfillment of Isaiah’s prophecy. I refer to the infamous founders of Communism and others who follow in their tradition.
Finally, wokeness explained in a way I can understand. Apparently, to really understand wokeness, with all its tentacles, requires a deeper understanding of Marxism. Thank you!
H. Verlan Anderson wrote a book called The Great and Abominable Church. In summary he described it as a political entity. HVA was endorsed by Ezra Taft Benson.
Thank you for referencing this book. H. Verlan Anderson was a close personal friend of President Ezra Taft Benson. I read this book and it was very good and detailed look at the Marxist world view through scripture. A truly definitive work on the subject. The title of the book is actually "The Great and Abominable Church of the Devil." The devil part is on point.
This episode is a major breakthrough for Cwic Media getting to the heart of the core drivers behind what is going on with modern Marxism. I have never seen it so clearly! Thank you Dan Ellsworth!
This helps me see the Book of Mormon in a whole new light. Look at Laman and Lemuel. They never denied the existence of God, they just dispised everything that came from God. They were driven by selfishness. Lemuel received a blessing from Lehi that promised him Lehi's first blessing, or his birthright to lead the family, if he would listen to Nephi and follow his prophetic guidance, much like the relationship between Jared and the brother of Jared, but he refused it because he couldn't have it all and he didn't want God telling him what to do.
Having taught at the university level for over 20 years, Marxism is not specifically mentioned in many academic social circles. However there is a deception going on. Many academics will not self-label as a Marxist. However, I lived through a number of "isms" and other concepts that are leftist in their agenda. They do borrow many neo-Marxist ideas. Examples include social constructionism, postmodernism, racialization, feminism, critical theory, poststructuralism, critical race theory, and social justice. I am not sure that church members as a whole are as sophisticated as adopting a leftist agenda. What I have noticed is some younger (Gen-Z and Millennials) are buying into the idea of rights and equality. This comes up in any discussions of LGBTQ issues. They are also quick to point out something is racist without even knowing what the definition is.
Marx and his cronies won't take upon them the name of Lucifer, thus try to getaway with irresponsibility. Taking upon us the name of Jesus Christ makes us responsible for our actions.
President Oaks has said that the great and abominable church is any group, people, organization that fights against the kingdom of god and his true church.
The fastest growing churches are the least woke churches. In the end, The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter-day Saints will stand as the beacon for Christ to the public.
I used to say “check out the LDS church” to this question. Not anymore. The members are still not all woke, but for some reason our most “visible” members are increasingly woke. It’s so odd.
Since I was very little, one of my favorite things was to learn about the Plan of Salvation. I have always had a deep love and gratitude for it. One thing that always baffled me was that I didn't understand why 1/3 of the spiritual sons and daughters of God followed Satan. Nowadays, I can see exactly what happened and understand why so many got confused. However, being much older than a Primary kid, I learned that not everybody sided with Heavenly Father and God for the same reasons I did. A friend once told me that she didn't like the Plan. She didn't understand why we had to suffer, and she knew she only accepted the Plan because of her deep love of Father and Jesus Christ. I had an enormous Pre-existence deja vu; I wanted to tell her to scream and tell her all the reasons thousands of reasons why the Plan was good. I felt I couldn't put my thoughts into words. I tried to reaffirm to her that the "PLAN IS GOOD!"
The idea of 'a third part' may be imagined as referring to one part of 3 equal parts, or as one part of 3 parts that are not equal which would allow for the 'third part' being much smaller than the other two thirds.
@@harmagician1 , good point. However, if all 3 parts are not equal, all 3 must be must different in some aspect. We know that one didn’t accept the plan; we know the other 2/3 accepted the plan, kept their first state, and received a mortal body. What could differentiate this group? Could it be that one accepted the challenge of mortality on the Earth, even with Earth being Satan’s prison? And the other third accepted the Plan but preferred to have mortality in other world a little bit far away from Satan but not in the main stage?
Everyone in church teach the plan of salvation backwards incorrectly. They teach the devil was going to make us all be sinless take our agency away but that is not true . If I was perfect I would not need to be saved . Mosus 4 vs 1 and I the lord spake unto Moses saying that Satan whom thou hast commanded in the name of my only begotten is the same wich was from the beginning and he came befor me saying behold here I am send me I will be thy son and I will redeem all man kind that one soul shall not be lost .... ... so if I was perfect because he made me be perfect or somehow I was just perfect on my own I would not need to be redeemed . He wouldn't have to die for me or pay a price of my imperfections. And yet my whole life everyone gets this wrong and teach he was going to force me to be good wich is impossible. He was going to save us in our sins . Nothing mattered no faith or repentance unessasary. I could go on on how his plan on taking agency worked but no one gets it . And will go on not trying that hard to teach
@@unholywarrior9007. Are you sure you were taught that? Maybe you misunderstood or you didn’t read the scriptures by yourself? Because it doesn’t make any sense to me to say we were perfect as spirits in the pre-existence. I also don’t remember ever being taught that. One thing is that whatever degree of intelligence we have in this life comes from reward of previous stages, therefore different degrees of intelligences implies to me different degrees of righteousness. Besides, how can someone claim perfection for a spirit? It’s nonsensical because spirits don’t have a body, we didn’t know the taste of chocolate or how comfy our beds feel like in a snowy Sunday morning or any morning for that matter. Only mortality could teach us that, there would be no way to know it as a spirit, even if we had seen others experiencing it a million times.
Also, I don’t think I was ever told that Satan would make us sinless. On the contrary, we would remain forever in a degree of glory that would be telestial, maybe terrestrial at best for very special souls. Sorry, I may have misunderstood your comment but I don’t like when someone claims that they have been taught something wrong. I believe we need to start taking accountability for our faith and learning. If people around you didn’t learn from the Lord and the scriptures, I think it’s unfortunate but you are responsible for seeking the Lord yourself regardless of what you were taught or not. It may explain but it doesn’t excuse you.
I'm old enough to remember when members 100% believed Bruce R McConkie when he wrote that the great and abominable church was the Catholic Church and I also remember when a Priest in his black apparel and white collar were in the temple films. It was definitely taught and believed in SS and I am glad you are clearing that up.
Listening to Bakunin's statement about Satan "Satan the eternal rebel, the first freethinker and emancipater of worlds. He makes man ashamed of his beastiel ignorance and obedience. He emancipates him, stamps upon his brow the seal of liberty and humanity in urging him to disobey and eat of the fruit of knowledge," reminds me of Saul Alinsky's dedication in his book, "Rules For Radicals." He says, "Lest we forget at least an over-the-shoulder acknowledgement to the very first radical: from all our legends, mythology, and history (and who is to know where mythology leaves off and history begins - or which is which), the first radical known to man who rebelled against the establishment and did it so effectively that he at least won his own kingdom - Lucifer "
1:02:45 interesting that Dan brought up BYU Pathway. The church’s first attempt to do this was a dismal failure where they took donor money for a “perpetual” education fund and then expected the people who needed it (because they couldn’t afford to pay for education) to pay back more than they could afford, even with plenty of donor money available. So glad they’ve learned from that mistake.
Marxism roots go back into the pre existence when Lucifer suggested he would omit individual free agency for forced equity in group salvation. So much for any eternal achievement awards in a non works based faith. Like Cain.... God did not like Lucifer's offering and naturally chose Christ's plan instead. :>)
“Don’t take this to your Sunday school lessons” Too late, Ive mentioned this same exact thing in Sunday school since I was 16 😂 Also, excellent content!! 👏 Such a good interview
Dan makes an important point here about how changing vocabulary allows those with the Marxist world view to claim that they fit (receptor sites) into a gospel perspective - claiming that this is the "new" socialism. Thomas Sowell points out that changing the definition of words is a clever way of lying. The Great and Abominable Church is a believe system or world view that combats the Gospel of Jesus Christ. It is a much more broad concept than a defined group or organization.
Also, I know I’m out of topic today, but could you bring Michael Rush to talk about the Book of Enoch. There’s a lot of weirdness with the Book of Enoch but it’s not that far from what we learn from the Pearl of Great Price and the creation. Besides, I think Rush did a lot of research on the subject to make an interesting case.
I find Rush to be an uninspired gospel scholar, ignoring sound scholarly findings and reason in favor of taking things completely out of context in order to forward his own views. His scholarship is the epitome of proof-texting. He's already decided on an outcome (aliens), and he wrests the scriptures to "prove" it.
“An Enemy Hath Done This”, written by Ezra Taft Benson, warned of this way back in 1965. I started reading and was like, yeah, yeah I know all of this and THEN when I got to the latter chapters on how communism/socialism HAS, not will, permeate every facet of our society and then listed the steps on how it IS happening, I started to feel panic as I realized we are already DEEPLY victims of its grasp! Really, now it’s just hunker down and listen to the prophet for direction on how to get through to the other side. Greg, you ask your speakers if they’re optimistic but, really, we HAVE the playbook and we can’t turn the train around but only go through the tunnel and by the will of God we spiritually survive it.
….and right out of the gate when the Nephites got rid of a monarchy (righteous as it was) and started a democracy (reign of elected officials or judges) there came their version of Marxism… Nehor!! ALMA 1 2 And it came to pass that in the first year of the reign of Alma in the judgment-seat, there was a man brought before him to be judged, a man who was large, and was noted for his much strength. 3 And he had gone about among the people, preaching to them that which he termed to be the word of God, bearing down against the church; declaring unto the people that every priest and teacher ought to become popular; and they ought not to labor with their hands, but that they ought to be supported by the people. 4 And he also testified unto the people that all mankind should be saved at the last day, and that they need not fear nor tremble, but that they might lift up their heads and rejoice; for the Lord had created all men, and had also redeemed all men; and, in the end, all men should have eternal life. 5 And it came to pass that he did teach these things so much that many did believe on his words, even so many that they began to support him and give him money.
That they need not fear and tremble. What a very accurate description of the current situation of the people. And yes you know the exact people I'm talking about. 👍
In 2007, when I was newly elected to the ASD Board of Ed, I was given John Goodlad's book, "The Moral Dimensions" by the superintendent. After reading only two chapters I had to vomit. The Marxist premise was so thick it made me physically ill. In 1984 Goodlad himself, by the invitation, if I heard correctly, with the hero of the then superintendent of the ASD, helped to set up the CITES and the BYU-Public School Partnership programs at BYU with the "Moral Dimensions" as the basis. Several years later, emblazoned on the wall, "Enculturating Our Young Into A Social and Political Democracy". Many of us fought to get this removed, and we did. Again, Marxism in our schools, even back then. Yes it's all around us. Even at BYU in the McKay School of Education.
I tend to agree. Isaiah paints two worldviews: Zion and Babylon. What Zion is, Babylon isn't, and vice versa. Any practice, worldview, belief, doctrine, etc. that has no place in Zion, is by definition, a part of Babylon. Nephi echoes that imagery: "Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth." (1 Nephi 14:10) I agree completely that Marxism fits the bill. I see it in other places too though... "And the angel spake unto me, saying: Behold the gold, and the silver, and the silks, and the scarlets, and the fine-twined linen, and the precious clothing, and the harlots, are the desires of this great and abominable church. And also for the praise of the world..." (1 Nephi 13: 8-9) These are also the desires of every professional athlete, movie star, entertainer, etc... people that society puts up as the false gods that we worship. Man, I long for Zion!
I’m reminded of a recent visit to the Kirtland Temple where the director shared the “curriculum” he was creating as doctrine to implement in the Community of Christ church. He could not answer the basic question as to whether the church believed in Christ. This, and many other comments, make me think he was headed in the direction of adopting Marxism as a religion.
I imagine that “The Great and abominable church” could have many applications but I linked it directly to the Council of Nicea and other similar uninspired councils. . 1. God called the creeds abominable. 2. Church simply means an asembly or council. God has sacred assemblies or councils and the opposite of that would likely be abominable. 3. Those councils did exactly what Nephi prophesied in taking away the plain and precious parts. It also happened after the gospel went from the Jews to the gentiles as Nephi prophesied as well. 4. Lastly, coincidence or not, the council of Nicea was not called together by religious men Or ecclesiastical authority. It was mandated by The political figure Constantine. Otherwise known as Constantine the “GREAT”.
Ii would like to know what you are basing your thoughts of Utah becoming a blue state. We are refugees from California sent to live in Utah by the voice of the spirit. We are very conservative and a lot of the people we know who have moved here are also conservative. Would the Lord send us here only to come to what we fled in California?
I understand and appreciate your comments. Please let me help to better articulate the some of the your points. Words matter. Please understand that there is a distinct difference between Satan and Satanism, and Lucifer and Luciferianism. When you commented that the term "Satanist" didn't capture what you were trying to say, it is because the aspects that you were talking about are Luciferianism. Luciferianism and Satanism are not the same. Luciferianism and its worldview is typified by what you read in the scriptures about Lucifer in the premortal existence, what we read abut Lucifer in Moses, etc. Luciferianism is the penultimate misotheism-worship of, or embracing all the worldview of Lucifer WHILE acknowledging the existence of God the Father (Moses 1:12). While certain forms or institutions do not directly embrace the worship of the personhood of Lucifer as God of this World on all levels, there are many that embrace his goals and aims or perverted worldview or priesthoods which are antithetic to Moses 1:39 and the Plan of Salvation. While Satansim and its ploys, as a religion, embrace Satan as God as a replacement object of worship, a Luciferianism worldview enjoins its adherents (knowingly or unknowingly) to actively participate in the Plan of Destruction against the Father and His Christ. Satanists are "out in the open" regarding their worship, but Luciferianists are NOT known by that name, and operate in secret. Luciferianism is Anti-Plan, Anti-Kingdom, Anti-church, and Anti-Christ, and Marxism is but one of its institutions. There must be opposition in all things, and the Anti-Church (the Great and Abominable Church) must have antithetical elements to all that God Loves, Prizes, and Plans. This is why Nephi indicates that there are only two churches, which we can understand as the the Church of the Firstborn, and the Church of Lucifer. All earthly institutions have patronage to one or the other.
H. Verlan Anderson, an LDS author, wrote a book entitled The Great and Abominable Church Of The Devil. It was eye-opener for me about 4 years ago. It was recommended by President Benson.
Marxism is just one tool or even tenant of the Great and Abominable Church and sadly, many of those tools have made inroads into our church. This was a brilliant and enlightening discussion.
Love this episode. It confirms my thoughts over the past 20 or so years. Not only is this ideology ancient, but it's pre-mortal to the creation of this earth. My only question on the subject of Lucifer is that Lucifer is claiming that what he's doing has been done in other worlds. The context, it seems, is that he, Lucifer, didn't tempt in these other worlds. I can't find anything addressing this. What happened in pre-mortality seems to be very illusive, yet we know, through modern scripture, that other worlds not only exist, but some have already "...passed away".
I hesitated to watch this for some time, partly because of reservations as to whether Marxism really fit Nephi's description. But reflecting on Marxism as a manifestation of an ancient heresy (what James Lindsay identifies as Gnosticism), I see the parallels much more clearly. What Dan said about liberals witnessing how Marxism devours everything certainly fits my experience. For years I considered myself on the Left, even as I rejected Marx's extremism and atheism: I wanted to be in favor of economic justice for Christian reasons. But it feels like being among the Jaredites, with Coriantumr and Shiz scooping everybody up for one side or the other. I'm glad to live in a time when it doesn't have to be a choice between Coriantumr and Shiz, but between Christ's covenant and Church, and the great Counterfeit, whose many disguises are at last wearing thin.
It is said that politics is downstream from culture. I would say that culture is downstream of our worldview. Christianity is a worldview that enters not only into our consciousness and actions, but into our subconsciousness. We need to focus on what the Doctrine of Christ really is. It is the opposite of pride. I would focus on the teachings of Christ and gospel principles, but you need to understand them in the context of the "philosophies of men." In Church, we can start from that point, the Doctrine of Christ. I'm not going to outline that here, but raising this clarity in church in a positive, non-contentious way I believe is the answer. I'll be going over that soon.
Sigh.....good luck. Ask how whatever is being discussed is supported by the principles in the Book of Mormon or the Family Proclamation or the Law of Common Consent in the Doctrine and Covenants. Ask them how it compares to Lehi's counsel In 2 Nephi 2 about opposition, law, and agency. KNOW your proclamation, etc., well. "Lectures" and "talking at" people are a turn off to any discussion, but first showing empathy with a concern of theirs (for example: wanting people to feel like they belong, wanting people to feel loved) is always a good way to start a discussion on common ground and can help keep everyone from immediately feeling defensive and shutting down conversation. Then ask THEM questions about how the ideas they are presenting are supported or contradicted by the principles taught in the above resources. Talking about the Book of Mormon, etc, is NOT talking politics and refute them if they claim it is. You are talking PRINCIPLES.
TALK PRINCIPLES! The Plan of Salvation clearly teaches us that Satan KNEW the Celestial Kingdom was THE BEST PLACE for us to go. To him, the end (Celestial Kingdom) justified the means (taking away the agency of man). Marxism uses that same philosophy- the end justifies the means. Point this out. God also knows that the Celestial Kingdom is the BEST PLACE to be, but he felt SO STRONGLY about supporting our AGENCY that he allowed 1/3 of the host of heaven to side with Satan, knowing they would be eventually be cast out and LOSE the opportunity to progress. Agency is so important that he tells Moses one of the reasons for casting Satan down was, "because that Satan rebelled against me, and sought to destroy the agency of man, which I, the Lord God, had given him" Moses 4:3.. Yes, even our ability to make bad and painful choices is allowed by God through his plan of Salvation. God did not "protect" us from our choices then, even when our very souls were at stake, and it stands to reason that nothing we do now will change the importance of the doctrine of AGENCY.
@susanb5910 This is all good. Great Advice. The heart of this is Christ. Not in a nebulous way. In a very specific way. This is exactly what the book of Mormon teaches us and it is talking about our day. This is what it will come down to.
Wait...does this mean that BYU is part of the great and abominable church? Wokeness, critical theory, organic evolution and the rest is taught there and paid for partly at least by tithing, which means the church allows this at the very least. Where does that leave us?
Secularism is a big part of it. It is indeed something that should consistently be identified with the "philosophies of men" But mere secularism looks for a framework.
Marxism is the gateway drug to communism. When all the institutions are torn down, the tyrant steps in to fill the power void. When all the true ideologues start to speak up and say “hey, this isn’t what we were trying to build”, they are the fist ones required to dig their own graves. As the bullet enters their brain, the new dictator tells them “thanks for all your help, couldn’t have done it without you.” I wish I was just being cynical... Read Solzhenitsyn.
Why are members trying to skirt around what Heavenly Father has asked us to do? Do they think they know better? Do they think they can really change Heavenly Father’s plan?
Many people are teaching that the great and abominable church is our church . Where are they getting this from ? Who teaches it ? Prophets seers and revelators ? Or just regular people ? Seems the church teaches that it is any person or group who teaches you to lean in them to help you save you and not Jesus Christ . Or any organization . I just want to know where dies the church teach the great and abominal church is our church ?
Greg. Have you met Strve E. Smoot? I wonder if his coverage of how the John Westley Powell and Lewis Henry Morgan kept native Americans down would be relevant to your channel. He covers how Marx, Engels, and even Darwin were people they associated with.
My husband and I sat until last last night talking about your show with James Lindsey, it was nothing short of outstanding and thought provoking. Please don’t change your methodology as was suggested by one of your viewers in the comments, what you’re doing is working and obviously is upsetting to some. Oh yes, one other thing no one should ever accuse you of, is not “giving moderates the time of day” you’re great at compromise where necessary and stand firm when you should… really strange comment from this viewer. Enough said, now let me get to watching this video.
My husband and I sat until last last night talking about your show with James Lindsey, it was nothing short of outstanding and thought provoking. Please don’t change your methodology as was suggested by one of your viewers in the comments, what you’re doing is working and obviously is upsetting to some. Oh yes, one other thing no one should ever accuse you of, is not “giving moderates the time of day” you’re great at compromise where necessary and stand firm when you should… really strange comment from this viewer. Enough said, now let me get to watching this video.
@@BarbieHitsBack Appreciate that! Very happy that my videos are initiating this type of conversation and thought. We all need to understand this "mist of darkness"
@@CwicShowthat verse Nephi 14 10 is talking about a future event. It doesn't apply to us today. But I agree with you it will be Communist in nature. That verse and people's wrong interpretation of is the very thing that started all the confusion about the great and abominable church
If the collectivism is anti-Christ, sure. But there's this, "And the angel said unto me: Behold the formation of a church which is most abominable above all other churches, which slayeth the saints of God, yea, and tortureth them and bindeth them down, and yoketh them with a yoke of iron, and bringeth them down into captivity. - 1 Nephi 13:5 "a church which is most abominable above all other churches"
What ism is not anti Christ? Marxism is a version of collectivism. Communism is a version of collectivism. Socialism, Fascism, and on… The ideology of the great and abominable church [assemblage] all fall under the umbrella of collectivism. I would like to invite you to consider inviting G Edward Griffin for a discussion. He will consider your invitation. I think you would throughly enjoy convetsing with him. If you could elaborate on why you shared the particular passage you did and how you view and specifically connect that to the points in this conversation.
What ism is not anti Christ? Marxism is collectivism, communism is collectivism, socialism, fascism, totalitarianism and so on. The ideology of the great and abominable church [assemblage] is collectivism of which is the umbrella that all ism fall under. If you would allow me to invite you to consider having G Edward Griffin on. He will consider and most likely accept your invitation. I believe you will throughly enjoy conversing with him. If you could elaborate on why you shared the passage in 1 Ne. and how you view and see that connecting to the points discussed in this specific conversation?
“The titles church of the devil and great and abominable church are used to identify all … organizations of whatever name or nature-whether political, philosophical, educational, economic, social, fraternal, civic, or religious-which are designed to take men on a course that leads away from God and his laws and thus from salvation in the kingdom of God” (Mormon Doctrine, 2nd ed. [1966], 137-38). 2 Nephi 10:16: "...he that fighteth against Zion, both Jew and Gentile, both bond and free, both male and female, ... are the whore of all the earth..." Elder Dallin H. Oaks: "...this great and abominable church must be something far more pervasive and widespread than a single “church,” as we understand that term today. It must be any philosophy or organization that opposes belief in God. And the “captivity” into which this “church” seeks to bring the saints will not be so much physical confinement as the captivity of false ideas” (“Stand as Witnesses of God,” Ensign, Mar. 2015, 32).
@@CwicShow Actually, it was....at least in the D&C Institute manual. The link is below on the church's site. It refutes a lot of the arguments Woke members use re socialism/communism, as well as their use of scripture to attempt to bolster their argument...like "all things common", "equal"...you know those passages. This section gives the church's position/interpretation of those verses as applied to the covenant keeping united order (as well as a statement on the importance of private property) Section L-6 of this Enrichment L gives a listing of The Lord's way vs the world's way (LoC vs socialism). It's long, but a great read. Many topics covered in it. But I understand that the focus in our Sunday meetings MUST remain centered on Christ. Veering into what could be political to some, could split Wards wide open and turn some bitter. People must gain this knowledge and testimony for themselves, and while we continue to love and invite, their agency allows them to stumble. www.churchofjesuschrist.org/manual/doctrine-and-covenants-student-manual/enrichment-l-the-law-of-consecration-and-stewardship?lang=eng
I always say, even Athiests (whether they want to admit or not) have a belief in something. We as humans have a natural desire to believe in something bigger than ourselves, whether its a 'God' OR a lifestyle, purpose, etc on how to conduct our lives.
The Great and abominable church of the devil was regrouped for the final push to take away the freedom of all lands nations and countries on may 1st 1776. It was financed by the Rothschild international bankers of England. They recruited one Adam Wieshaupe to organize it . He gave it the name illuminate because it is derived from lucifer and means holders of the light. It is a religion that operates in the political arena. It's goal was to foment war and they have financed both sides of every way since napole 0:18 0:18 on. The goal is to convince the masses that only a one world government can bring peace. They finally were successful after WW ll by setting up the United 0:18 Nations. The UN , the New World Order , The Rules Based International Order , The Great Reset are all part of Globalism. This is the Abominable Church spoken of I. 1 Nephi 13 and 14. The Beast in Revelations chapter 13 and the secret combinations in Ether chapter 8 is all the same thing. In Revelation chapter 13 the beast will cause all to recieve a number in order to buy or sell , by controlling the money they can control the world. We are going to a cashless society very soon with the cbdc program Central Bank Central Currency. Stay on. The straight and narrow path!!!! The lord is coming soon and will destroy The Great and Abominable Church
The role of Marxism in our time is why I think the Korihor story was included in the Book of Mormon. His arguments are exactly the same as critical theory. His arguments were 1) No God or Christ therefore everything devolves to power and power dynamics, 2) man can be shaped into the ideal through correct management of the creature, 3) the Nephite society was founded by a group of men that set up the society with institutions, structures, and a set of beliefs that were designed to keep themselves in power, 4) the people of the society were under a false consciousness of freedom when they were actually in bondage, 5) Korihor was there to awaken them to a consciousness of their bondage to the power structures of society and the social restrictions contained therein, 6) once you have the special knowledge to see the way the power structures keep people in bondage, then you can really be free, 7) Korihor then called them to a revolution against the Nephite society.
That is Marxism.
Great analysis!
Excellent summary. Thank you.
That's what his real crime was: not doubting God, but agitating for this corrosion by mid-level violence (thanks to James Lindsay for naming it for me).
And we today are being run by Marxism but soon will be fill blown communism! We have been warned !!!!!
I taught Relief Society in our ward a couple of weeks ago. I’d just found your channel and binged a lot of the episodes. I did bring up the great and abominable church in the lesson. 😂 It was in CFM that week and also related to the talk we were discussing. Probably because of your videos, my mind definitely went to the abominable church being ANY ideology that pulls us away from Christ. While looking for a pic to represent the abominable church for a slide, I saw this quote in CFM from Pres. Oaks: “Because no religious denomination-Christian or non-Christian-has ever had “dominion” over all nations of the earth or the potential to bring all the saints of God down into “captivity,” this great and abominable church must be something far more pervasive and widespread than a single “church,” as we understand that term today. It must be any philosophy or organization that opposes belief in God. And the “captivity” into which this “church” seeks to bring the saints will not be so much physical confinement as the captivity of false ideas.”
Excellent quote!
This is from a BYU-I devotional (then Elder Oaks) delivered, titled Witnesses of God on February 24, 2014. A full 10 years ago…and more clear and easily seen today than a decade ago.
Thank you for that quote so much . So please does anyone know why some are teaching the great and abominal church is our church . ? Where do any of our leaders teach that the great and abominal church is our church ?
An acquaintance of mine who is (or was) a member was once defending the tenets of socialism to me by comparing it to the United Order. When I pointed out that the Order was entered into by covenant and by free choice rather than the force of government law, he opined that if people wouldn't do what is right voluntarily, they should be forced to. I was completely flabbergasted. It was like he completely forgot whose idea it was to force us into obedience.
The reprobate mind 😢
Exactly. The United Order is a way of governing society where there will be no poor. Those able to contribute do it out of love for their brothers & sisters in the gospel, not from being forced to or having their goods appropriated or confiscated. Those who are poor are expected to work, if possible, and to be humble and grateful.
It's comforting that rather than forcing the righteous to other realms as refugees from a degenerate earth of forced conformity, that the earth will be cleansed periodically as it levels up, and the freely lawful righteous will inherit it. They did at the beginning of man, they will at its renewal, and they will again in its ultimate state. It's a special place and destined to be Celestial. Think Celestial!
People who crave terrestrial, cannot stand the idea of exaltation. God's perfect order is an insult to them.
Your headline for this video is literally what i almost commented on your last video with James Lindsay. Glad you had Dan on! Great discussion.
Read the end of 2 Nephi you will be amazing how descriptions Nephi gave match so closely to the social/cultural issues around us today.
Also include the book of Ether
And 4 Nephi
YES!
Chapter 33 or which chapter or 2nd Nephi are you talking about? That way I can find it faster. Thanks!
Oh my, thank you for this!! I also read 'Wild Swans' years ago (as well as 'Spider Eaters' and 'Life and Death in Shanghai'). Starting in about 2015, the things I saw in my kid's public schools and universities sounded so much like these books! When I tried talking about this out loud, people reacted really poorly, like I was crazy. I've questioned my own sanity. ... I also remember from 'Wild Swans' - how they had students destroying everything beautiful - parks, gardens, art work - people couldn't even grow flowers.
In the 1960s Mao got the idea that birds ate the crops. So there was a massive campaign to kill all the birds. Following that there was a great famine because there was nothing to eat the bugs. That is why it is rare to see any birds when you go to China.
@@rawbfish9355he later had them brought back in. But the damage was done. Your right
@@rawbfish9355 stupid is as stupid does. Humans cease to amaze me!
Years ago I suspected that Karl Marx was a likely candidate as a great false prophet, and nowadays I'm more convinced of that. And personally, I view the Great and Abominable Church as ANYTHING that contradicts the Lord's Church.
May I suggest the book “the devil and Karl Marx”.
@@nynoahI imagine they knew each other well.
ANYTHING would include the Lord's church
The great and abominable church is the Catholic Church
@@nynoah
I have that book Excellent
Awesome discussion! Misothiest is my new word. Atheist is not a fitting word for opponents of God who are infused with hatred and bile. If a person simply didn’t believe in God that person would live and let live. Many of these people are so consumed with a burning hatred for God and Christians which goes way beyond simple atheism.
Well, do you acknowledge that belief in “god” is superstition? And therefore to not believe is simply to opt out of superstition? And further that “atheist” really has no meaning because what is it that one is not believing? There’s no there there. On the other hand, the word antitheist does have meaning. It registers opposition to theism, which is the actions of men speaking for “god”, humankind’s longest running fraud.
What they hate is private property ownership and how some people have more than others. Equity is removing property from both and providing everything by the state.
Refreshing to hear an intelligent person for a change. Our general media is so lacking.
I was just talking to my sister about this the other day. Her and my daughter are being led away by the “pulling on our heartstrings”.
Strange times. Prophet says - Hear him. Think celestial. Overcome the world. Peacemakers needed. There is just So much philosophy of men mingled with scripture.
Many members of my family who still live in Africa are thriving because they have taken advantage of BYU Pathway.
Uplifting and informative as always.
Thanks Greg and Dan.
BYU Pathway is God-sent. An absolute miracle and blessing to thousands. ❤
@@Family___2023 yes, it is a blessing beyond measure.
I remember Clayton Christensen talking about disruptive innovation in education, and predicted that distance learning would one day take over brick and morter universities. Interesting that Clayton Christensen
and Kim Clark were colleagues at Harvard and then Kim Clark was called to go to BYUI and then as Church Comissioner of Education. This is when Pathways was established. If we're wondering if the brethren aren't aware of the problems in academia, pathways is the way to save Church education and and provide a college education for countless students around the globe. 0:01
Great way to start my day. Thank you gentlemen for helping me gain a better understanding of marxism. I feel like I need to keep my head on swivel because of how fast this seeps into our lives.
I am so grateful to see this idea finally being vocalized. For years I have been getting pushback for this idea. Thank you for such a great episode!
Thank you Greg and Dan for laying this out so clearly. I’ve got a few people I need to share this with.
Isn't it interesting how Marx and those who influenced his thinking emerged around the same time as the restoration of the gospel? As Joseph Smith was seeking to find and consolidate all TRUTH, Marx and his ilk were seeking to define and consolidate truth's opposite. The Book of Mormon arrived at exactly the time the world would need it!
I thought about this too. It makes me think how maybe there really is opposition in ALL things! Even in history!
@@genericyoutubeuser3828 Fascinating! Thank you for sharing!
Yes, that is interesting, and I have thought about that too, but we must remember that God decides where and when each of us is born. So, I wonder why He had them born at the time that He did. It was not by chance.
Here's a snip-bit of a talk then "Elder" Benson gave in Oct 79: A Witness and a Warning
It is well to ask, what system established secret works of darkness to overthrow nations by violent revolution? Who blasphemously proclaimed the atheistic doctrine that God made us not? Satan works through human agents. We need only look to some of the ignoble characters in human history who were contemporary to the restoration of the gospel to discover fulfillment of Isaiah’s prophecy. I refer to the infamous founders of Communism and others who follow in their tradition.
Finally, wokeness explained in a way I can understand. Apparently, to really understand wokeness, with all its tentacles, requires a deeper understanding of Marxism. Thank you!
James lindsay lays it out well, but that additional layer of the Gospel makes it crystal clear
H. Verlan Anderson wrote a book called The Great and Abominable Church. In summary he described it as a political entity. HVA was endorsed by Ezra Taft Benson.
Thank you for referencing this book. H. Verlan Anderson was a close personal friend of President Ezra Taft Benson. I read this book and it was very good and detailed look at the Marxist world view through scripture. A truly definitive work on the subject. The title of the book is actually "The Great and Abominable Church of the Devil." The devil part is on point.
Was also Ezra T Benson that wrote “an enemy hath done this”? My dad was telling me about it and it seems to be talking about many of the same points
@@thedragonking8854 Yes, a great book.
Thanks!
You’re welcome and thank you!
This is absolutely brilliant. I'm 100% sold. This frames things I've been pondering about and troubled by in such clear terms.
United Nations 2030 Agenda is a calculated Marxist planned world take over.Please read there 17 goals and what has been happening with DEI, SJ, etc.
Why would my comment be deleted Greg?
I have some ocean front property here in Utah if your interested.
This episode is a major breakthrough for Cwic Media getting to the heart of the core drivers behind what is going on with modern Marxism. I have never seen it so clearly! Thank you Dan Ellsworth!
This helps me see the Book of Mormon in a whole new light. Look at Laman and Lemuel. They never denied the existence of God, they just dispised everything that came from God. They were driven by selfishness. Lemuel received a blessing from Lehi that promised him Lehi's first blessing, or his birthright to lead the family, if he would listen to Nephi and follow his prophetic guidance, much like the relationship between Jared and the brother of Jared, but he refused it because he couldn't have it all and he didn't want God telling him what to do.
Having taught at the university level for over 20 years, Marxism is not specifically mentioned in many academic social circles. However there is a deception going on. Many academics will not self-label as a Marxist. However, I lived through a number of "isms" and other concepts that are leftist in their agenda. They do borrow many neo-Marxist ideas. Examples include social constructionism, postmodernism, racialization, feminism, critical theory, poststructuralism, critical race theory, and social justice. I am not sure that church members as a whole are as sophisticated as adopting a leftist agenda. What I have noticed is some younger (Gen-Z and Millennials) are buying into the idea of rights and equality. This comes up in any discussions of LGBTQ issues. They are also quick to point out something is racist without even knowing what the definition is.
Great interview. I keep learning more and more from your interviews. Thanks so much.
Great to hear!
Ask Pres Benson
I barely started this one but I already liked this discussion !!!!❤
Oh, boy! This topic is going to trigger a lot of woke LDS. 🤣
If that is the case, they have made the connection that Wokeness derives from Marxism.
@@CwicShow Yep! The video is right on. Great job!!
Great content!!! Very interesting. This makes so much sense!!!
None of it makes sense. Read the vision of Nephi for yourself.
@@holyroller4391 I sure did!
@@tgray747 WOW...
Marx and his cronies won't take upon them the name of Lucifer, thus try to getaway with irresponsibility. Taking upon us the name of Jesus Christ makes us responsible for our actions.
President Oaks has said that the great and abominable church is any group, people, organization that fights against the kingdom of god and his true church.
Of which the Marxist ideology is one of.
Such a great discussion, thank you!!
I'm looking for a list of unwoke churches. I don't know where to look though.
The fastest growing churches are the least woke churches. In the end, The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter-day Saints will stand as the beacon for Christ to the public.
@@CwicShowWould you say this "Marxism church" is fastest growing right now?
@@ClintRay1 Yes. I should have specified "Christian" churches
I used to say “check out the LDS church” to this question. Not anymore. The members are still not all woke, but for some reason our most “visible” members are increasingly woke. It’s so odd.
@@dcarts5616 Follow the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve. In a real sense, they are the Church regardless of what some members are doing.
Thank you for the topic and your thoughts guys
Thanks for sharing such great perspectives!
Since I was very little, one of my favorite things was to learn about the Plan of Salvation. I have always had a deep love and gratitude for it. One thing that always baffled me was that I didn't understand why 1/3 of the spiritual sons and daughters of God followed Satan. Nowadays, I can see exactly what happened and understand why so many got confused. However, being much older than a Primary kid, I learned that not everybody sided with Heavenly Father and God for the same reasons I did. A friend once told me that she didn't like the Plan. She didn't understand why we had to suffer, and she knew she only accepted the Plan because of her deep love of Father and Jesus Christ. I had an enormous Pre-existence deja vu; I wanted to tell her to scream and tell her all the reasons thousands of reasons why the Plan was good. I felt I couldn't put my thoughts into words. I tried to reaffirm to her that the "PLAN IS GOOD!"
The idea of 'a third part' may be imagined as referring to one part of 3 equal parts, or as one part of 3 parts that are not equal which would allow for the 'third part' being much smaller than the other two thirds.
@@harmagician1 , good point. However, if all 3 parts are not equal, all 3 must be must different in some aspect. We know that one didn’t accept the plan; we know the other 2/3 accepted the plan, kept their first state, and received a mortal body. What could differentiate this group? Could it be that one accepted the challenge of mortality on the Earth, even with Earth being Satan’s prison? And the other third accepted the Plan but preferred to have mortality in other world a little bit far away from Satan but not in the main stage?
Everyone in church teach the plan of salvation backwards incorrectly. They teach the devil was going to make us all be sinless take our agency away but that is not true . If I was perfect I would not need to be saved . Mosus 4 vs 1 and I the lord spake unto Moses saying that Satan whom thou hast commanded in the name of my only begotten is the same wich was from the beginning and he came befor me saying behold here I am send me I will be thy son and I will redeem all man kind that one soul shall not be lost .... ... so if I was perfect because he made me be perfect or somehow I was just perfect on my own I would not need to be redeemed . He wouldn't have to die for me or pay a price of my imperfections. And yet my whole life everyone gets this wrong and teach he was going to force me to be good wich is impossible. He was going to save us in our sins . Nothing mattered no faith or repentance unessasary. I could go on on how his plan on taking agency worked but no one gets it . And will go on not trying that hard to teach
@@unholywarrior9007. Are you sure you were taught that? Maybe you misunderstood or you didn’t read the scriptures by yourself? Because it doesn’t make any sense to me to say we were perfect as spirits in the pre-existence. I also don’t remember ever being taught that. One thing is that whatever degree of intelligence we have in this life comes from reward of previous stages, therefore different degrees of intelligences implies to me different degrees of righteousness. Besides, how can someone claim perfection for a spirit? It’s nonsensical because spirits don’t have a body, we didn’t know the taste of chocolate or how comfy our beds feel like in a snowy Sunday morning or any morning for that matter. Only mortality could teach us that, there would be no way to know it as a spirit, even if we had seen others experiencing it a million times.
Also, I don’t think I was ever told that Satan would make us sinless. On the contrary, we would remain forever in a degree of glory that would be telestial, maybe terrestrial at best for very special souls. Sorry, I may have misunderstood your comment but I don’t like when someone claims that they have been taught something wrong. I believe we need to start taking accountability for our faith and learning. If people around you didn’t learn from the Lord and the scriptures, I think it’s unfortunate but you are responsible for seeking the Lord yourself regardless of what you were taught or not. It may explain but it doesn’t excuse you.
I was talking about exactly this with my wife a few weeks ago. Nice to see others coming to the same conclusion!
Great stuff guys
I'm old enough to remember when members 100% believed Bruce R McConkie when he wrote that the great and abominable church was the Catholic Church and I also remember when a Priest in his black apparel and white collar were in the temple films. It was definitely taught and believed in SS and I am glad you are clearing that up.
They still aren’t wrong, it is still a representation; they just had no idea that it could cancerously invade EVERYTHING!
Listening to Bakunin's statement about Satan "Satan the eternal rebel, the first freethinker and emancipater of worlds. He makes man ashamed of his beastiel ignorance and obedience. He emancipates him, stamps upon his brow the seal of liberty and humanity in urging him to disobey and eat of the fruit of knowledge," reminds me of Saul Alinsky's dedication in his book, "Rules For Radicals." He says, "Lest we forget at least an over-the-shoulder acknowledgement to the very first radical: from all our legends, mythology, and history (and who is to know where mythology leaves off and history begins - or which is which), the first radical known to man who rebelled against the establishment and did it so effectively that he at least won his own kingdom - Lucifer "
And liberals just loooooooove Alinsky.
1:02:45 interesting that Dan brought up BYU Pathway. The church’s first attempt to do this was a dismal failure where they took donor money for a “perpetual” education fund and then expected the people who needed it (because they couldn’t afford to pay for education) to pay back more than they could afford, even with plenty of donor money available. So glad they’ve learned from that mistake.
Marxism roots go back into the pre existence when Lucifer suggested he would omit individual free agency for forced equity in group salvation. So much for any eternal achievement awards in a non works based faith.
Like Cain.... God did not like Lucifer's offering and naturally chose Christ's plan instead. :>)
Just a slight correction. It was God's plan. Christ agreed to it and to be our savior.
Excellent discussion! Got my next sacrament talk 😂😂😂
@misfyresalot please send invitation🤣
“Don’t take this to your Sunday school lessons”
Too late, Ive mentioned this same exact thing in Sunday school since I was 16 😂
Also, excellent content!! 👏
Such a good interview
great discussion - Makes me think of things that never even crossed my mind.
Dan makes an important point here about how changing vocabulary allows those with the Marxist world view to claim that they fit (receptor sites) into a gospel perspective - claiming that this is the "new" socialism. Thomas Sowell points out that changing the definition of words is a clever way of lying. The Great and Abominable Church is a believe system or world view that combats the Gospel of Jesus Christ. It is a much more broad concept than a defined group or organization.
Also, I know I’m out of topic today, but could you bring Michael Rush to talk about the Book of Enoch. There’s a lot of weirdness with the Book of Enoch but it’s not that far from what we learn from the Pearl of Great Price and the creation. Besides, I think Rush did a lot of research on the subject to make an interesting case.
I find Rush to be an uninspired gospel scholar, ignoring sound scholarly findings and reason in favor of taking things completely out of context in order to forward his own views. His scholarship is the epitome of proof-texting. He's already decided on an outcome (aliens), and he wrests the scriptures to "prove" it.
“An Enemy Hath Done This”, written by Ezra Taft Benson, warned of this way back in 1965. I started reading and was like, yeah, yeah I know all of this and THEN when I got to the latter chapters on how communism/socialism HAS, not will, permeate every facet of our society and then listed the steps on how it IS happening, I started to feel panic as I realized we are already DEEPLY victims of its grasp! Really, now it’s just hunker down and listen to the prophet for direction on how to get through to the other side. Greg, you ask your speakers if they’re optimistic but, really, we HAVE the playbook and we can’t turn the train around but only go through the tunnel and by the will of God we spiritually survive it.
This was an excellent discussion.
Glad you enjoyed it.
….and right out of the gate when the Nephites got rid of a monarchy (righteous as it was) and started a democracy (reign of elected officials or judges) there came their version of Marxism… Nehor!!
ALMA 1
2 And it came to pass that in the first year of the reign of Alma in the judgment-seat, there was a man brought before him to be judged, a man who was large, and was noted for his much strength.
3 And he had gone about among the people, preaching to them that which he termed to be the word of God, bearing down against the church; declaring unto the people that every priest and teacher ought to become popular; and they ought not to labor with their hands, but that they ought to be supported by the people.
4 And he also testified unto the people that all mankind should be saved at the last day, and that they need not fear nor tremble, but that they might lift up their heads and rejoice; for the Lord had created all men, and had also redeemed all men; and, in the end, all men should have eternal life.
5 And it came to pass that he did teach these things so much that many did believe on his words, even so many that they began to support him and give him money.
That they need not fear and tremble. What a very accurate description of the current situation of the people. And yes you know the exact people I'm talking about. 👍
In 2007, when I was newly elected to the ASD Board of Ed, I was given John Goodlad's book, "The Moral Dimensions" by the superintendent. After reading only two chapters I had to vomit. The Marxist premise was so thick it made me physically ill.
In 1984 Goodlad himself, by the invitation, if I heard correctly, with the hero of the then superintendent of the ASD, helped to set up the CITES and the BYU-Public School Partnership programs at BYU with the "Moral Dimensions" as the basis.
Several years later, emblazoned on the wall, "Enculturating Our Young Into A Social and Political Democracy". Many of us fought to get this removed, and we did. Again, Marxism in our schools, even back then.
Yes it's all around us. Even at BYU in the McKay School of Education.
I tend to agree.
Isaiah paints two worldviews: Zion and Babylon. What Zion is, Babylon isn't, and vice versa. Any practice, worldview, belief, doctrine, etc. that has no place in Zion, is by definition, a part of Babylon. Nephi echoes that imagery: "Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth." (1 Nephi 14:10)
I agree completely that Marxism fits the bill. I see it in other places too though...
"And the angel spake unto me, saying: Behold the gold, and the silver, and the silks, and the scarlets, and the fine-twined linen, and the precious clothing, and the harlots, are the desires of this great and abominable church. And also for the praise of the world..." (1 Nephi 13: 8-9)
These are also the desires of every professional athlete, movie star, entertainer, etc... people that society puts up as the false gods that we worship.
Man, I long for Zion!
I’m reminded of a recent visit to the Kirtland Temple where the director shared the “curriculum” he was creating as doctrine to implement in the Community of Christ church. He could not answer the basic question as to whether the church believed in Christ. This, and many other comments, make me think he was headed in the direction of adopting Marxism as a religion.
I imagine that “The Great and abominable church” could have many applications but I linked it directly to the Council of Nicea and other similar uninspired councils. . 1. God called the creeds abominable. 2. Church simply means an asembly or council. God has sacred assemblies or councils and the opposite of that would likely be abominable. 3. Those councils did exactly what Nephi prophesied in taking away the plain and precious parts. It also happened after the gospel went from the Jews to the gentiles as Nephi prophesied as well. 4. Lastly, coincidence or not, the council of Nicea was not called together by religious men Or ecclesiastical authority. It was mandated by The political figure Constantine. Otherwise known as Constantine the “GREAT”.
Dude! Read "The Naked Communist" by Cleon Skousen!
I attend Pathway Connect and it has been an amazing experience.
Love the discussion and tropic. But why only one quote from our modern prophets and apostles when numerous quotes from scholars are used?
Ii would like to know what you are basing your thoughts of Utah becoming a blue state. We are refugees from California sent to live in Utah by the voice of the spirit. We are very conservative and a lot of the people we know who have moved here are also conservative. Would the Lord send us here only to come to what we fled in California?
I understand and appreciate your comments. Please let me help to better articulate the some of the your points. Words matter. Please understand that there is a distinct difference between Satan and Satanism, and Lucifer and Luciferianism. When you commented that the term "Satanist" didn't capture what you were trying to say, it is because the aspects that you were talking about are Luciferianism. Luciferianism and Satanism are not the same. Luciferianism and its worldview is typified by what you read in the scriptures about Lucifer in the premortal existence, what we read abut Lucifer in Moses, etc. Luciferianism is the penultimate misotheism-worship of, or embracing all the worldview of Lucifer WHILE acknowledging the existence of God the Father (Moses 1:12). While certain forms or institutions do not directly embrace the worship of the personhood of Lucifer as God of this World on all levels, there are many that embrace his goals and aims or perverted worldview or priesthoods which are antithetic to Moses 1:39 and the Plan of Salvation. While Satansim and its ploys, as a religion, embrace Satan as God as a replacement object of worship, a Luciferianism worldview enjoins its adherents (knowingly or unknowingly) to actively participate in the Plan of Destruction against the Father and His Christ. Satanists are "out in the open" regarding their worship, but Luciferianists are NOT known by that name, and operate in secret. Luciferianism is Anti-Plan, Anti-Kingdom, Anti-church, and Anti-Christ, and Marxism is but one of its institutions. There must be opposition in all things, and the Anti-Church (the Great and Abominable Church) must have antithetical elements to all that God Loves, Prizes, and Plans. This is why Nephi indicates that there are only two churches, which we can understand as the the Church of the Firstborn, and the Church of Lucifer. All earthly institutions have patronage to one or the other.
I don't understand why you wouldn't want to tell people in the church in our discussions that Marxism isn't Satanism because it is
Because there are better and more effective ways to describe it. I would start with anti-Christ or anti-Christian.
Touché Dan and Greg
Very enlightening! Thank you
Nice job, Dan!
H. Verlan Anderson, an LDS author, wrote a book entitled The Great and Abominable Church Of The Devil. It was eye-opener for me about 4 years ago. It was recommended by President Benson.
Very good episode. ❤❤
The great and abominable church meets in the great and spacious building.
Marxism is just one tool or even tenant of the Great and Abominable Church and sadly, many of those tools have made inroads into our church. This was a brilliant and enlightening discussion.
Glad you enjoyed it.
This all makes so much sense! Thank you!
Love this episode. It confirms my thoughts over the past 20 or so years. Not only is this ideology ancient, but it's pre-mortal to the creation of this earth. My only question on the subject of Lucifer is that Lucifer is claiming that what he's doing has been done in other worlds. The context, it seems, is that he, Lucifer, didn't tempt in these other worlds. I can't find anything addressing this. What happened in pre-mortality seems to be very illusive, yet we know, through modern scripture, that other worlds not only exist, but some have already "...passed away".
Absolutely loved this!
I have to say that this discussion has brought together many of my thoughts. The idea of satan's thought processes makes a lot of sense to me.
I hesitated to watch this for some time, partly because of reservations as to whether Marxism really fit Nephi's description. But reflecting on Marxism as a manifestation of an ancient heresy (what James Lindsay identifies as Gnosticism), I see the parallels much more clearly.
What Dan said about liberals witnessing how Marxism devours everything certainly fits my experience. For years I considered myself on the Left, even as I rejected Marx's extremism and atheism: I wanted to be in favor of economic justice for Christian reasons. But it feels like being among the Jaredites, with Coriantumr and Shiz scooping everybody up for one side or the other.
I'm glad to live in a time when it doesn't have to be a choice between Coriantumr and Shiz, but between Christ's covenant and Church, and the great Counterfeit, whose many disguises are at last wearing thin.
I really like the talk given by Marion G Romney at BYU and again at General Conference titled "
Hey Greg, love your work. What's the best way to bring this up in our wards when we are constantly encouraged to not be political?
It is said that politics is downstream from culture. I would say that culture is downstream of our worldview. Christianity is a worldview that enters not only into our consciousness and actions, but into our subconsciousness. We need to focus on what the Doctrine of Christ really is. It is the opposite of pride. I would focus on the teachings of Christ and gospel principles, but you need to understand them in the context of the "philosophies of men." In Church, we can start from that point, the Doctrine of Christ. I'm not going to outline that here, but raising this clarity in church in a positive, non-contentious way I believe is the answer. I'll be going over that soon.
Sigh.....good luck. Ask how whatever is being discussed is supported by the principles in the Book of Mormon or the Family Proclamation or the Law of Common Consent in the Doctrine and Covenants. Ask them how it compares to Lehi's counsel In 2 Nephi 2 about opposition, law, and agency. KNOW your proclamation, etc., well.
"Lectures" and "talking at" people are a turn off to any discussion, but first showing empathy with a concern of theirs (for example: wanting people to feel like they belong, wanting people to feel loved) is always a good way to start a discussion on common ground and can help keep everyone from immediately feeling defensive and shutting down conversation. Then ask THEM questions about how the ideas they are presenting are supported or contradicted by the principles taught in the above resources.
Talking about the Book of Mormon, etc, is NOT talking politics and refute them if they claim it is. You are talking PRINCIPLES.
TALK PRINCIPLES! The Plan of Salvation clearly teaches us that Satan KNEW the Celestial Kingdom was THE BEST PLACE for us to go. To him, the end (Celestial Kingdom) justified the means (taking away the agency of man). Marxism uses that same philosophy- the end justifies the means. Point this out.
God also knows that the Celestial Kingdom is the BEST PLACE to be, but he felt SO STRONGLY about supporting our AGENCY that he allowed 1/3 of the host of heaven to side with Satan, knowing they would be eventually be cast out and LOSE the opportunity to progress. Agency is so important that he tells Moses one of the reasons for casting Satan down was, "because that Satan rebelled against me, and sought to destroy the agency of man, which I, the Lord God, had given him" Moses 4:3..
Yes, even our ability to make bad and painful choices is allowed by God through his plan of Salvation. God did not "protect" us from our choices then, even when our very souls were at stake, and it stands to reason that nothing we do now will change the importance of the doctrine of AGENCY.
@susanb5910 This is all good. Great Advice. The heart of this is Christ. Not in a nebulous way. In a very specific way. This is exactly what the book of Mormon teaches us and it is talking about our day. This is what it will come down to.
Interesting show !
24:40 How about "Satan's fanboys"?
I've listened to this a couple of times. I think it's the best, plainist explanation I've heard of Marxism. I wonder how Marx feels about this now.
Ellsworth is impressive. I see why you chose him for this topic.
Greg, what do you think about the phrase: 'Religion of the Natural Man'?
Wait...does this mean that BYU is part of the great and abominable church? Wokeness, critical theory, organic evolution and the rest is taught there and paid for partly at least by tithing, which means the church allows this at the very least. Where does that leave us?
I always thought The GAC is secularism but I did not hear that word in this discussion.
Secularism is a big part of it. It is indeed something that should consistently be identified with the "philosophies of men" But mere secularism looks for a framework.
What's the dominant economic system on the planet?
Great lesson. Important to learn that commu ism, as awful as it is, isn't Marxism. Thank you
Communism was a manifestation of Marxism. We are seeing different manifestation today.
No true scotsman fallacy. Must we try every branch and offshoot to know that the root is bad?
@@markstenquist2315
So true! And thanks for introducing me to the No True Scottsman!
Marxism is the gateway drug to communism. When all the institutions are torn down, the tyrant steps in to fill the power void. When all the true ideologues start to speak up and say “hey, this isn’t what we were trying to build”, they are the fist ones required to dig their own graves. As the bullet enters their brain, the new dictator tells them “thanks for all your help, couldn’t have done it without you.”
I wish I was just being cynical... Read Solzhenitsyn.
Why are members trying to skirt around what Heavenly Father has asked us to do? Do they think they know better? Do they think they can really change Heavenly Father’s plan?
Many people are teaching that the great and abominable church is our church . Where are they getting this from ? Who teaches it ? Prophets seers and revelators ? Or just regular people ? Seems the church teaches that it is any person or group who teaches you to lean in them to help you save you and not Jesus Christ . Or any organization . I just want to know where dies the church teach the great and abominal church is our church ?
This looks quite interesting
This fits the World Economic Forum's takeover
Such an important subject! 🇺🇸
Greg. Have you met Strve E. Smoot? I wonder if his coverage of how the John Westley Powell and Lewis Henry Morgan kept native Americans down would be relevant to your channel. He covers how Marx, Engels, and even Darwin were people they associated with.
It started out in the war in Heaven.
Maybe instead of satanic he could be said to be “Devilish, and lovers of themselves“
Is it my imagination or did a video get deleted?
The Book of Mormon says there are only two churches, 1 Ne14:10. The church of God and the church of the devil.
Yep. We go into that.
My husband and I sat until last last night talking about your show with James Lindsey, it was nothing short of outstanding and thought provoking.
Please don’t change your methodology as was suggested by one of your viewers in the comments, what you’re doing is working and obviously is upsetting to some.
Oh yes, one other thing no one should ever accuse you of, is not “giving moderates the time of day” you’re great at compromise where necessary and stand firm when you should… really strange comment from this viewer.
Enough said, now let me get to watching this video.
My husband and I sat until last last night talking about your show with James Lindsey, it was nothing short of outstanding and thought provoking.
Please don’t change your methodology as was suggested by one of your viewers in the comments, what you’re doing is working and obviously is upsetting to some.
Oh yes, one other thing no one should ever accuse you of, is not “giving moderates the time of day” you’re great at compromise where necessary and stand firm when you should… really strange comment from this viewer.
Enough said, now let me get to watching this video.
@@BarbieHitsBack Appreciate that! Very happy that my videos are initiating this type of conversation and thought. We all need to understand this "mist of darkness"
@@CwicShowthat verse Nephi 14 10 is talking about a future event. It doesn't apply to us today. But I agree with you it will be Communist in nature. That verse and people's wrong interpretation of is the very thing that started all the confusion about the great and abominable church
Marxism yes but is that still too narrow? How about collectivism in all of its forms of which Marxism is one.
Collectivism or totalitarianism
If the collectivism is anti-Christ, sure. But there's this, "And the angel said unto me: Behold the formation of a church which is most abominable above all other churches, which slayeth the saints of God, yea, and tortureth them and bindeth them down, and yoketh them with a yoke of iron, and bringeth them down into captivity. - 1 Nephi 13:5
"a church which is most abominable above all other churches"
What ism is not anti Christ? Marxism is a version of collectivism. Communism is a version of collectivism. Socialism, Fascism, and on… The ideology of the great and abominable church [assemblage] all fall under the umbrella of collectivism. I would like to invite you to consider inviting G Edward Griffin for a discussion. He will consider your invitation. I think you would throughly enjoy convetsing with him.
If you could elaborate on why you shared the particular passage you did and how you view and specifically connect that to the points in this conversation.
What ism is not anti Christ? Marxism is collectivism, communism is collectivism, socialism, fascism, totalitarianism and so on. The ideology of the great and abominable church [assemblage] is collectivism of which is the umbrella that all ism fall under. If you would allow me to invite you to consider having G Edward Griffin on. He will consider and most likely accept your invitation. I believe you will throughly enjoy conversing with him.
If you could elaborate on why you shared the passage in 1 Ne. and how you view and see that connecting to the points discussed in this specific conversation?
Brother Greg, have you been able to listen to the commentary I sent?
Thanks to God that I am so busy and I don't have time to read and learn about Marxism.
“The titles church of the devil and great and abominable church are used to identify all … organizations of whatever name or nature-whether political, philosophical, educational, economic, social, fraternal, civic, or religious-which are designed to take men on a course that leads away from God and his laws and thus from salvation in the kingdom of God” (Mormon Doctrine, 2nd ed. [1966], 137-38).
2 Nephi 10:16: "...he that fighteth against Zion, both Jew and Gentile, both bond and free, both male and female, ... are the whore of all the earth..."
Elder Dallin H. Oaks:
"...this great and abominable church must be something far more pervasive and widespread than a single “church,” as we understand that term today. It must be any philosophy or organization that opposes belief in God. And the “captivity” into which this “church” seeks to bring the saints will not be so much physical confinement as the captivity of false ideas” (“Stand as Witnesses of God,” Ensign, Mar. 2015, 32).
Personally, I wouldn't use Mormon Doctrine on this issue.
Ok
Why shouldn't this be taught in church? The church leaders used to come out against communism back in the old days
Sure, but it wasn't in the teacher's manual.
@@CwicShow But it needs to be we need to stand up against this demonic Force. The church should be saying a lot of things but they're not
@@CwicShow
Actually, it was....at least in the D&C Institute manual. The link is below on the church's site. It refutes a lot of the arguments Woke members use re socialism/communism, as well as their use of scripture to attempt to bolster their argument...like "all things common", "equal"...you know those passages. This section gives the church's position/interpretation of those verses as applied to the covenant keeping united order (as well as a statement on the importance of private property)
Section L-6 of this Enrichment L gives a listing of The Lord's way vs the world's way (LoC vs socialism).
It's long, but a great read. Many topics covered in it. But I understand that the focus in our Sunday meetings MUST remain centered on Christ. Veering into what could be political to some, could split Wards wide open and turn some bitter. People must gain this knowledge and testimony for themselves, and while we continue to love and invite, their agency allows them to stumble.
www.churchofjesuschrist.org/manual/doctrine-and-covenants-student-manual/enrichment-l-the-law-of-consecration-and-stewardship?lang=eng
Two Weeks On FEMA - On The "Counter Culture Mom Show" Or
The Same Show On FreedomProject!
Are there any good books out there about Marx, that isn't glorifying him?
I always say, even Athiests (whether they want to admit or not) have a belief in something. We as humans have a natural desire to believe in something bigger than ourselves, whether its a 'God' OR a lifestyle, purpose, etc on how to conduct our lives.
The Great and abominable church of the devil was regrouped for the final push to take away the freedom of all lands nations and countries on may 1st 1776. It was financed by the Rothschild international bankers of England. They recruited one Adam Wieshaupe to organize it . He gave it the name illuminate because it is derived from lucifer and means holders of the light. It is a religion that operates in the political arena. It's goal was to foment war and they have financed both sides of every way since napole 0:18 0:18 on. The goal is to convince the masses that only a one world government can bring peace. They finally were successful after WW ll by setting up the United 0:18 Nations. The UN , the New World Order , The Rules Based International Order , The Great Reset are all part of Globalism. This is the Abominable Church spoken of I. 1 Nephi 13 and 14. The Beast in Revelations chapter 13 and the secret combinations in Ether chapter 8 is all the same thing. In Revelation chapter 13 the beast will cause all to recieve a number in order to buy or sell , by controlling the money they can control the world. We are going to a cashless society very soon with the cbdc program Central Bank Central Currency. Stay on. The straight and narrow path!!!! The lord is coming soon and will destroy The Great and Abominable Church