When Did the Roman Empire ACTUALLY Fall?
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- Опубліковано 9 чер 2024
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00:00 Introduction
03:12 476
05:40 1453
12:46 395
15:59 565
17:23 610
19:17 1204
21:19 The Rabbit Hole
23:11 Closing
Sources:
“The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire” by Edward Gibbon
“The Fall of Constantinople: the Ottoman conquest of Byzantium” by David Nicolle, John F. Haldon and Stephen R. Turnbull
“The Tragedy of Empire” by Michael Kulikowski
“Visions of Empire: How Five Imperial Regimes Shaped the World” by Krishan Kumar
“Diglossia and the Neo-Assyrian Empire’s Akkadian and Aramaic Text Production “ by Karen Radner
“Language Policies in the Roman Republic and Empire” by Bruno Rochette
History.com - Topics - Middle Ages - Charlemagne
“Encyclopedia of the Medieval Ages” edited by André Vauchez, in association with Barrie Dobson and Michael Lapidge
“De Byzantinæ historiæ scriptoribus” by Philippe Labbe
“Historia Byzantina” by Du Cange
“Essai sur les mœurs et l'esprit des nations” by François-Maire Arouet (Voltaire)
“Byzantium: The Early Centuries” by John Julius Norwhich
“Panygericus” by Pliny the Younger
“Philological and historical commentary on Ammianus Marcellinus” by J Den Boeft, J.W Drijvers, D. Den Hengst and H.O. Teitler
“The Inheritance of Rome” by Chris Wickham
“Justinian and the Byzantine Empire” by James Evans
“History of the Wars” by Procopius
“The first seven ecumenical councils (325-787): their history and theology” by Leo Donald Davis
“Byzantium in the Seventh Century: the Transformation of a Culture” by John Haldon
“Byzantium: the Decline and Fall” by John Julius Norwhich
“The Fourth Crusade The Conquest of Constantinople” by D. E. Queller
“Ab urbe condita” by Livy
“Moscow the third Rome: Sources of the Doctrine” by Dimitri Strémooukhoff
“Mussoline: Profiles in Power” by Martin Clark
Soundtrack:
“Truth in the Stones” by Kevin MacLeod
“Ancient Ruins” by Audio Waves - Eliche Remblon
“Renaissance Revelry” by Jon Presstone
“Another Time and Place” by Brad Prevedoros, Neil Golden, Greg Joy
“Farewell Dance” by Humans Win
“Greensleeves” by “Audio Waves - Eliche Remblon
“Serious Situation” by Bruce Zimmerman
“Haunted by Crimes” by Jon Presstone
“Gentle Documentary Piano” by Danail Draganov
“Virtutes Instrumenti” by Kevin MacLeod
“Chill Wave” by Kevin MacLeod - Розваги
Rome fell in 1985 when the mayors of Rome and Carthage signed a peace treaty formally ending the Third Punic War, the unresolved state of which meant the participants still existed until it ended.
So East Germany still exists because Molossia is still officially at war with them?
@@seannolan9857 Goes without saying
ok, Im going with this now, thats pretty based.
In the Third Punic War Tunisia must be swearing in arabic against Italians who have no clue what word the Tunisians are saying.😂
@@Kbelikar The fun part is that is not a joke.
Classic Rome end in 3'th century, when Constantine the Great moved capital, leading to massive shifts in power, what lead to lost of old capital in 5'th century. But in reality many of so called "barbarians" were actually Roman citizens and senate of Rome operated until 7'th century. So called Byzantium what was Rome only by name, as its culture was based on Greek, not Latin. Fall in 15'th century. But Holly Roman Empire (formed from Franks who were Roman province and usurp title during succession crisis in East Rome during 8'th century) fall only in 19'th century and even that only by evolving in German Empire. With title of Kaiser being used until WW1. Spiritually European Union continue many aspects of law, organization and tradition of the Rome. EU was founded by Rome Statute... yeh, it is not subtle.
Maybe The Real Rome Was the Friends We Made Along the Way
Based and journey pilled
The hole west is the roman empire in itself :D
Or the people we killed and genocide.
@@starmaker75 And the people still coping to this very day
@@starmaker75 never mix history with modern ethics
Let's be honest, the 476 date for the fall of the Rome makes the empire go out with a whimper, but the 1453 end date makes it go out with a bang.
Instead of the last emperor being this literal child who's simply deposed in an unceremonious fashion, the last emperor goes down fighting WITH his realm when it's on it's last legs.
People often forget that the Romans believed they fell multiple times, hence why someone like Camillus was called the second founder of Rome, Marius the Third and Augustus the forth, viewing them as founders of new Rome's.
Heck some people would agrue the Roman fell in 1922 with the Ottoman Empire abolished
Well... not fallen to be exact. Furius was given the title of 2nd Founder as he drove out the Gauls and helped rebuild the damaged city. For the people at the time, it didn't fall, but was reinvigorated, and the 2nd founder was seen as an honor, such as a title of "Father of a country".
@@starmaker75 They were not rome Ottomans were nothing
Fall of The Western Roman Empire (also known as *THE* Roman Empire) happens precisely on the year 330 A.D, when Constantine makes the proclamation of a "New Rome" on the soil of Byzantium; thus christening the birth of The Byzantine Empire. Anything else is head-canon & mental gymnastics.
@@KevinJohnson-cv2no there is no such thing as the byzantine empire. The arabs and the Persians always called it simply the roman empire
That introduction was some of the best explanations of "opinions" I've heard in a while.
When your empire is so influential people still don’t know if it ever even fell:
One potential date is sometime during the 580s, as that is when the Senate had become defunct.
A dream cannot be killed.
Ideals will stand the test of time. As long as Rome is remembered, as long as countries use its model of governance(the republic model), and as long as the name Caesar is revered then Rome will never die.
*Fun fact:* There's an amazing comic about the Fall of the Western Empire called "Amiculus", in which the byzantines, after re-conquering Rome during the reign of Justinian, try to find out the fate of Romulus Augustulus while the last days of the boy as emperor are shown through flashbacks. Loved the way Orestes was portrayed here as a maniac obsessed with maintaining the Empire no matter what
Aw, I wanna read this now!
*In my country, Belgium, we have mainly 2 different dates:*
1. 04/09/476: Fall of the Western Roman Empire (Odoacer dethrones Romulus Augustulus and gave himself the title Rex/Dux)
2. 29/05/1453: Fall of the Eastern Roman Empire (Ottoman Empire captures Constantinople after a siege of 53 days)
The first date is more special to us because in my country, we mark it as the end of the Classical Antiquity and the beginning of the Middle Ages. The second date can be marked as the end of the Middle Ages and the beginning of the Early Modern Period but that date is more commonly given to the discovery of the Americas by Colombus on 12/10/1492. It's also important to mention that these 2 dates give us events that changed the whole continent of Europe by dividing the parts of the Roman Empire into pieces.
Pretty much the same in Italy.
I remember in the 90s i read (elementary school book) the middle ages ended in 1453, now you find only 1492
If look at that way, the Middle Ages start and end with the fall of the Rome empire
Same here in Romania
My school says that the middle ages are from 500-1500 which is just wrong. WTF
Same here in France
I feel honored that the abdication of Charles V was mentioned even if in passing. I will die on that hill.
In my opinion the Roman empire began with Cesar crossing the Rubicon and ended in 1461 with the fall of the last byzantine possessions in the Peloponnes (yes, constantinople fell in 1453, but the byzantines still had most of the Peloponnes, where, by that time, the myjority of remaining eastern Roman territory was).
That's the empire of trebizond
@@GeldtheGelded A name given by foreigners in a foreign time. It's kind of funny to me how people like to use such names as way of proof that a such entities were not Roman or the Roman Empire, but the people who invented the names just wanted ways to differentiate between which Roman state. Did you know that there was no 'Latin Empire', as everyone had referred to it still as the Empire of the Romans? To just use names as a means to discredit a state is in my eyes a bit outlandish.
Fall of The Western Roman Empire (also known as *THE* Roman Empire) happens precisely on the year 330 A.D, when Constantine makes the proclamation of a "New Rome" on the soil of Byzantium; thus christening the birth of The Byzantine Empire. Anything else is head-canon & mental gymnastics.
@@KevinJohnson-cv2no I’m sure it’ll blow your mind when you find out that Rome wasn’t even the Capital anymore in 330AD. The Capital was moved to Mediolanum (Milan) around 50 years prior
@@jasonthomasmt So the transition into Byzantium & The Byzantine Empire actually began 50 years before? Thanks for letting me know
5:40
Speaking of the Fall of Constantinople, it is said that Constantine XI was rescued and elevated by an angel while fighting against the Ottomans, ascending to Heaven without first dying. Curiously, Romulus suffered a similar fate at the end of his reign, as he was picked up by Mars during a celebration at the Campus Martius. Those identical supernatural events marked the beginning and end of Roman history.
I’m not religious, but I want to believe this happend !
For clarity Russia is not a Third Rome. Ivan the terrible was madman who call himself Roman Emperor, despite never having formal relations with the Byzantium and he also declared himself Cezar of all Rus, despite not controling all of Rus territory. And his country fall immediately after his death, when angry Poles who were Dukes of Rus and technical subjects of Kaiser, come asking WTF? Russia become a Empire only after German Romanov take control over it (who BTW are relatives of British crown, who are also related to Kings of Poland and of course Kaiser).
PS: Catherine the Great was a Prussian, what was rogue Province of Poland (and yes, unified Germany). What was one of main reasons why she conspired to kill it. Purely from the spite.
@@TheRezroSome high ranking byzantine citizens fled to Russia after the fall in 1453 tho (not saying they’re a third rome but it kinda makes sense)
@@DivinizedOne There was no Russia before 16'th century. Kieven Rus fall in 13'th century and whole region was at the time under control of Mongols and it was last place they would move.
Russia didn't capture Crimea until 18'th century and whole Roman connection was completely made up by madman, Ivan the Terrible (just before the fall to Poland). Your statement literally make no sense! Whole Roman connection is straight fabrication, including that Russia do not hold actual control over Orthodox church, being only one of many Patriarchs.
When Byzantium fall, they still hold for a time the Hellenic peninsula. Even moving to Bulgaria make more sense. Tzars also were Germans and Catherine The Great, a Prussian. But even this connection end with fall of Tzardom.
@@TheRezroчто ты несёшь
If we call Moscow the third Rome it would be fair to say that 1917 with the overthrow of the Tsar being the true end, the title of Tsar being dirived from Augustus.
After watching the vid there's a line from Gladiator that comes to mind 'Rome is an idea' the entity of Rome not being a physical thing but a thought.
In which case, the answer should be 1946, as Bulgaria also had a tsar until then.
Fantastic video Spectrum. I love how you mentioned that the “Barbarian” Generals were de facto Roman Emperors in their own right. Pretty much nobody cared when Romulus was deposed as he was a complete figurehead that was the son of a usurper that was also not recognized by the Eastern Roman Empire. I would like to add on that these “Barbarians” were highly Romanized at this point and preserved Roman law, institutions, architecture, and culture. (1) These barbarians had taken rein of the Roman state long before Romulus on multiple occasions, with a huge number of Western Roman Emperors being mere puppets controlled by powerful Germanic generals. It is also to be noted that the image of “decadent” Romans Christians adding way too many mercenaries because of said decadence only to be overwhelmed by hordes of barbarians is a bit of a fantasy. As Tim O’Neill states:
“This summarises the main elements of Gibbon’s argument on this point - Christianity taught pacifism or at least passivity, the manly “active virtues” of the old Empire were suppressed, money was wasted on clergy and churches and the former Roman “military spirit” declined. Of course, historiography has advanced greatly since the 1770s and, unsurprisingly, there have been a great many scholarly studies of the causes of the fall of the Western Roman Empire since then. They have generally rejected Gibbon on these points. Oxford’s Peter Heather has summarised the flaws in Gibbon’s argument in his recent work on the fall of the Empire (see Heather, The Fall of the Roman Empire: A New History of Rome and the Barbarians, 2005, p.120 ff). He notes:
“Christian institutions did, as Gibbon asserts, acquire large financial endowments. On the other hand, the non-Christian religious institutions that they replaced had also been wealthy, and their wealth was being progressively confiscated at the same time as Christianity waxed strong. It is unclear whether endowing Christianity involved an overall transfer of assets from secular to religious coffers. Likewise some manpower was certainly lost to the cloister, this was no more than a few thousand individuals at most, hardly a significant figure in a world that was maintaining, even increasing, population levels. Similarly, the number of upper-class individuals who renounced their wealth and lifestyles for a life of Christian devotion pales into insignificance beside the 6,000 or so who by AD 400 were actively participating in the state as top bureaucrats.”
(Heather, p. 123)
So the idea that the church was some vast drain on Imperial coffers to the detriment of the Army or that top talent became “idle mouths” in the cloister rather than generals does not really stack up. It also fails a key rule of thumb that can be applied to any claim about the fall of the Roman Empire. This is because it was the Western Roman Empire that collapsed - the Eastern Empire not only survived for another 1000 years, but actually expanded not long after the fall of the West and went through several periods of economic boom before its long decline and final fall, centuries later. So any claim about a cause of the fall of the Western Empire has to pass the “East/West Test”: is the claim based on an element found only or more substantially in the Western Empire and not in the Eastern one? If not, the claim fails. In this case, the Eastern Empire was every bit as Christian as the West, if not more so. Just as much money went from the emperors and wealthy patrons to the Church in the East as in the West, if not more. The monastic ideal began in the East and was even more popular there, with even more people choosing to reject the world and live an ascetic existence. Yet it was the West that collapsed.” (2)
On the topic of these “Barbarian mercenaries” and the “decadence” of the Late Roman Army:
“Harris’ references to “true soldiers” and “[farming] it out to mercenaries” indicate he has bought the common misconception that the Late Roman Army was an inferior fighting force compared to the “real” Romans of the Empire’s heyday, and was corrupted and “barbarised” by foreign soldiers who fought for the pay alone. This is a nineteenth century idea based on the erroneous image of a morally decadent Empire and its outdated and second-rate army being overwhelmed militarily by hordes of barbarian invaders. More modern analysis, however, shows the barbarian armies were generally small, the Western Romans won almost all military engagements with them right up to the end of the Empire and that the army remained a formidable, flexible, well-equipped and effective fighting force. The collapse of the Western Empire was primarily a political and economic affair, with the barbarians more one of its symptoms than its cause and the army only dwindling in its very final decades because of collapsing finances and spiraling political disintegration. And, once again, Harris’ claims fail the “East/West Test” because the army of the Eastern Empire was much the same in structure, organisation, equipment and tactics as that of the West, yet it saw no collapse. The fall of the Roman Empire was not primarily a military affair.
Harris’ “mercenaries” reference seems to be to the use of foederati - allied non-Roman warriors who fought for Rome alongside or instead of Roman troops. This had been a practice of the Romans since the days of the Republic and had been part of the Imperial “divide and conquer” strategy applied to frontier tribes, with the Romans paying and equipping friendly tribes to fight or guard the border region against other, unfriendly peoples. Paying a foederatus was also an excellent way of obtaining fresh troops quickly, as convincing a barbarian warlord to march under Roman banners brought highly effective and often battle-hardened troops under Roman command almost immediately - far more useful than the time, expense and risk involved in raising, training and then fielding green recruits.
The idea that these “mercenaries” were somehow less effective than Roman troops is undermined by the simple fact that the whole reason the Romans used them is that they were formidable units. They were recruited from warlike peoples - Germanic tribes, Isaurians, Arabs, Alans, Sarmatians and Huns - precisely because these warriors made excellent soldiers. Hugh Elton’s analysis also shows that far from proving less loyal to the Empire than Harris’ “true soldiers”, barbarian troops proved rather less likely to rebel or support a usurper than regular units - Germanic troopers in particular took oaths of loyalty very seriously (see Elton, Warfare in Roman Europe, AD 350-425 , Oxford, 1996, especially pp. 272-8). And, yet again, Harris’ claim here fails the “East/West Test”, given that the Eastern Empire made extensive use of foederati and drew on non-Roman sources of regular recruits both in the period the collapse of the West and the centuries that followed. Hunnic, Arabic, Alanic and, later, Bulgarian and Turkic troops all fought for the Eastern emperors and, for its final four centuries, the elite palace guard was made up of the Varangians - Swedish and Russian Vikings and, later, Anglo-Saxon “mercenaries”. It would be interesting to see Sam Harris tell a Varangian that he was not a “true soldier”. (2)
Indeed, it was a political and economic affair, with the West struggling to survive due to the loss of one of one of its richest provinces, North Africa, along with spiraling political disintegration and the provinces being unable to sustain themselves. With this lack of funds, independent warlords sprang up as Roman centralization in the west dwindled.
Oh, and for any mention of the “Dark Ages” dogma and the “decline” into the Middle Ages”, here: docs.google.com/document/d/1E6EI7f7VKoVr6u6keooAVrmL4yXFjTKry-LF0ec9quU/edit
This comment needs far more likes, very well done. Thank you for your input to the discussion
incredible comment
@@danieltourinho2057 Ahh, thanks!
@@NoahWeaverRacingPart 2: (A continuation of my comment and a TL;DR for the so-called Dark Ages) Medieval Europe, contrary to popular belief, loved ancient learning and was actually extremely prosperous in terms of technological advancement and social development, making Europe and the Medieval Roman Empire richer than their earlier Roman predecessors. Huge advancements in various fields such as agriculture (With these advancements being things such as the invention of the horse plow, greatly increasing the efficiency of plowing) led to flourishing economic centers as trade routes boomed. This can be seen through the analysis of skeletons, which show that Medieval folks were on average better-fed and taller. (3)
As Tim O'Neill states:
"What is remarkable is which books the translators concentrated on. There was no shortage of Orthodox Greek theological works or even ancient Greek and Roman plays and poems available in Sicily and Spain, but these were generally ignored. The eager scholars from the north concentrated overwhelmingly on works on mathematics, astronomy, physics, logic and philosophy as well as medicine, optics and natural history. They were not interested in plays and poems (leaving them to be "rediscovered" later by the humanist scholars of the Renaissance) - these Medieval scholars were interested in the fruits of reason: science, logic and philosophy.") (4)
As the two historians L. D. Reynolds and N. G. Wilson note in the erudite book, Scribes and Scholars: A Guide to the Transmission of Greek and Latin Literature 4th Edition,
“There was in general no attempt to alter the school curriculum by banishing the classical authors.” (pg 50) (5)
(Amazon.com: Scribes and Scholars: A Guide to the Transmission of Greek and Latin Literature: 9780199686339: Reynolds, L. D., Wilson, N. G.: Books)
Indeed, for Medieval scholars such as the brilliant Alcuin of York quoted Ovid, Livy, Pliny, Aristotle, Cicero, and more Classical authors as they did their best to preserve the knowledge lost during the decentralization and gradual collapse of the Western Roman Empires, with help from Nestorian Syriac Christian scholars from the Eastern Roman Empire. Christian scholars who had preserved and actively expanded upon and commented on these works for centuries and centuries more after. (6)
Sources:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodoric_the_Great (1)
historyforatheists.com/2018/08/sam-harris-horrible-histories/ (2)
docs.google.com/document/d/1E6EI7f7VKoVr6u6keooAVrmL4yXFjTKry-LF0ec9quU/edit# (3)
www.quora.com/Why-did-science-make-little-real-progress-in-Europe-in-the-Middle-Ages?no_redirect=1 (4)
Reynolds, L. D., & Wilson, N. G. (2013). Scribes and scholars: A guide to the transmission of Greek and Latin literature. Oxford University Press. (5)
historyforatheists.com/2020/03/the-great-myths-8-the-loss-of-ancient-learning/ (6)
@@NoahWeaverRacing Part 3: As the two historians L. D. Reynolds and N. G. Wilson note in the erudite book, Scribes and Scholars: A Guide to the Transmission of Greek and Latin Literature 4th Edition,
“There was in general no attempt to alter the school curriculum by banishing the classical authors.” (pg 50) (5)
(Amazon.com: Scribes and Scholars: A Guide to the Transmission of Greek and Latin Literature: 9780199686339: Reynolds, L. D., Wilson, N. G.: Books)
Indeed, for Medieval scholars such as the brilliant Alcuin of York quoted Ovid, Livy, Pliny, Aristotle, Cicero, and more Classical authors as they did their best to preserve the knowledge lost during the decentralization and gradual collapse of the Western Roman Empires, with help from Nestorian Syriac Christian scholars from the Eastern Roman Empire. Christian scholars who had preserved and actively expanded upon and commented on these works for centuries and centuries more after. (6)
Sources:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodoric_the_Great (1)
historyforatheists.com/2018/08/sam-harris-horrible-histories/ (2)
docs.google.com/document/d/1E6EI7f7VKoVr6u6keooAVrmL4yXFjTKry-LF0ec9quU/edit# (3)
www.quora.com/Why-did-science-make-little-real-progress-in-Europe-in-the-Middle-Ages?no_redirect=1 (4)
Reynolds, L. D., & Wilson, N. G. (2013). Scribes and scholars: A guide to the transmission of Greek and Latin literature. Oxford University Press. (5)
historyforatheists.com/2020/03/the-great-myths-8-the-loss-of-ancient-learning/ (6)
Honestly one of the greatest videos I have seen on the matter!
Keep it up, and please just make something, which you are passionate about!
Uzbekistan is the Roman Empire🇺🇿
Eat a horse
This is the truth.
What the mainstream media doesn’t want you to know
🇺🇿🇺🇿🇺🇿🇺🇿🇺🇿
you won't see this in your mainstream history books
Just came upon your channel a few days ago. I really enjoy listening to your perspective, and I'm excited to see where you go with it.
Really great video Spectrum !
Nice job !
Very nice video Spectrum. I really enjoyed your indepth analysis of the different view points. Have a nice day!
You're 100% right about the "they spoke Greek not Latin" argument, it's always struck me as particularly odd for that exact reason. You can’t really argue culture either because imperial Roman culture was heavily influenced by Hellenic culture to begin with, and the Eastern Romans perpetuated the system of government, legal system, and many cultural practices from pre-476 Rome. The people themselves, both the upper class and the common people, never really thought of themselves anything but Romans. Hell, they continued doing so long after the Ottoman conquests put an end to the ERE. Modern Greek identity as something distinct from Roman identity is an invention of the Greek nationalist movement that fought for independence from the Ottoman Empire. It took generations for Greek identity to displace Roman identity. Funny enough, the idea of the ERE as some sort of Greek state not truly in continuity with the Roman Empire is very popular with Greek nationalists, who are trying to square their modern Greek identity with a desire to celebrate Eastern Roman accomplishments.
If we brought Caeser or Augustus forward in time, what would they think constituted the end of their empire? I think they'd probably consider it over with the death of Nero, as it was no longer ruled by their family, but up for grabs from any random general, much like Alexander's empire.
There wasn't even an Empire during Caesar's life.
doubtful
@@kavky the emperorship did not yet exist but the republic was most certainly a empire, they even engaged heavily in efforts of colonialism and imperialism this also coincides Caesars very overt manoeuvres to have himself become a king or at least pseudo-king
Augustus himself aimed to have the empire split into a diarchy (east/west) before the gens julias male line perished and he had to rely on his sole heir in the gens claudia leaving his bloodline behind. The only dates i could see either considering the end of their empire is either the end of the principate, 1453 or the outlawing of paganism (heraclius potentially also makes sense but since both were hellenophiles i doubt it)
If we brought a roman from the Kingom era to Augustus time he would not even recognize Ocatavian as roman (as he was a descendant of other italic peoples).
Spectrum! It's always a Holiday when you upload! Love your videos, keep up the work!
Do you reckon when he says spectrum he means the autistic spectrum
This was a very interesting video to listen to, tyvm for sharing your views!!
The reign of Heraclius makes for a very compelling end to the Roman Empire:
- The Emperor stops using the style Augustus and changes to the greek for King.
- The romans lose control of much of the East (egypt, palestine, syria)
- The Persians are gone from being the primary rivals of the Empire, replaced by the Caliphate
- The Emperor puclishes its decrees in Greek
there's a video on the channel Toldinstone called "The War That Ended the Ancient World" precicely about this shift. Quite poetic
That can viewed as a transformation rather than the end.
As always, your content is exceptional.
Clearly Rome ended when Romulus killed Remus.
Genius.
The empire lives on within all of us. Roma invicta brothers.
I am of the opinion that Rome is a city.
Therefore, the Roman empire "Fell" in 286 AD when Diocletian changed the capital to Mediolanum/Milan.
This is the point at which "The Roman empire" simply became "The empire"
It became the seminal empire, no longer existing for the purpose of the city of Rome, but for the sake of its institutions and leadership. To me, this is when the old system of the legitimacy of the state coming from SPQR, the senate and people of Rome, to an idea of personal ownership of the state. The one that you would see throughout early medieval times, that the state was the property of the monarch.
I mean that's interesting, but when did "The Empire" fall then. I have a different route but I come to a similar conclusion that the Roman Respublica (the Commonwealth of the Romans), separately understood from direct continuous administration, remained until the modern period when it became strained, and fell after WW1, when no-one claimed to lead this Respublica (as an Emperor).
@@Epicrandomness1111 The Ottomans stopped claiming the title of the emperor of the Romans in the 18th century, I don't think that's an appropriate continuation.
I'm of the opinion that the empire fell in 1492 when the continuous line of institutions was permanently destroyed.
I liked your discourse on truth a lot, things important to historiography like epistemology are so rarely discussed, yet have such huge implications for how we treat history!
amazing video, thanks
Well, here's the REAL moment Rome fell ...
It fell in my first two turns of Civilization 6.
Great video!
Great vii. Please consider doing a ranking video on the holly roman emperors.
Great video
I’ve always been a fan of your videos for the humor and personality that you bring into your topics, and I was kinda trepidatious about watching this video as I felt it would be a bit dry/bland.
However, instead of that, I actually really appreciated the seriousness you put into this topic, starting off with the introduction of “what is truth?” The philosophic and academic tone I think were quite fitting, and I don’t think it would have been as good if you tackled it from your normal point of view.
I still hope you make more humorous content like rankings, but seeing more thoughtful and intrepid videos like this wouldn’t be bad either.
If you told me this is the most effort you’ve ever put into making a video, and least from a serious pov and not like recording or editing,I’d believe you.
You should be proud. I look forward to what you bring in the future.
Great video and deep dive. What about San Marino?
My view on this line of thought is that there are two dates for when Western and Eastern Rome both fell as Roma Lazarus (Western Rome) and Roma Continued (Eastern Rome). Because the two dates in my eyes that Western and Eastern Rome ended are 1453 (Eastern Rome) and 1648 (Western Rome).
Goddamn this is a top notch video. History and some discussion on the concepts of perception of the truth sprinkled in. I think this is my new favorite video from you!
I think that:
- Properly and symbolically, it fell in 1453 with the fall of Constantinople and death of the last emperor.
- Politically, it fell in 1460 with the Ottoman conquest of the Despotate of Morea (which was the last piece of legal Roman land still unoccupied by 1453)
- In its entirety, it fell in 1479 with the fall of the Principality of Theodoro, which had been part of the 'illegal' Roman successor state of the empire of Trebizond.
Great video. Perhaps the "when did Roman Empire started" will be good idea for next video
The Declaration of the Principate by Augustus, there is no doubt.
Thank god that this long lasting debate can be finally settled by my favorite UA-camr 🙏🙏🙏
Good vid make more like this
Tuesday, May 29, 1453.
exactly
"For me, it was Tuesday"
august 14, 1461 Siege of Trebizond.
@@ronnieman87 nope emperor was dead already
@@ronnieman87 Trebizond abandoned its claim to being the Roman Empire 200 years prior in agreement with Michael Palaiologos
love this vid
I would say that the fall of Rome is a multiple part tale, you have the fall of Roman religion when they adopted Christianity, the fall of Roman culture where their ideals and traditions were slowly eroded, the fall of the Roman state, the fall of Rome itself, when Rome was no longer the center of the empire nor its capital.
Ultimately I feel that the end of Rome came with when people stopped referring to a state and its people as being Roman
Feels good youtube didn't even recommend your video to me even when I have max notifications on I'm 2 days late but I'm here.
Long live emperor honorius
Probably has been said, but in my opinion you deserve a lot more subs.
1453
Spectrum can you go in more detail about Roman Marocco and Iberia because I would love to know more about it.
I personally love how you explained truth at the start and make it clear that truth doesn't actually exist, it is but a ploy made by your mind to justify your actions.
In this case, I do think that a subjective truth could be valide, since the concept of state is a human creation.
Asking when did the Roman Empire ended is like asking when did certain country began existing.
Using my country, Spain, as an example, if you consider that Spain began existing in 1469, with the marriage of the king and queen that will eventually call themselves Catholic Kings of Spain, ruling over the land that is today Spain, and speaking a language that is basically Spanish, then your concept of state is a defined nation(s) under a single government.
If that's your idea of state, then for you the Roman Empire fell in 476.
If you, on the other hand, consider that Spain began existing in 711, with the creation of the Kingdom of Asturias, a state that speaked latin, had a different culture than the Spanish, and didn't even had a 1/5 of the current Spanish territory, but that will eventually conquer the Muslim Iberian territory, unify the Iberian kingdoms, changing it name multiple times and whose royal dinasty and institution will evolve onto the current Spanish Royal House and institution, then for you a state is a group of institutions that are able to evolve over time
Then, for you, the Roman Empire ended with the fall of Constantinople and the definitive end of any state that could claim itself as a successor of the Roman Empire (I don't think I have to explain why Russia, Turkey or the HRE don't count as Roman successor)
Other conception of state could lead to other dates or other successor candidates for Rome.
If you consider a government-in-exile as a valid continuation of a state, then the fall of the despotate of Epirus could count as the fall of the last Roman Empire.
If you consider an Empire the property of a king, then you'll have to search for a legitimate successor for the Roman Emperor (which is another rabbit hole entirely)
If you consider a state just the embodiment of a nation, then the European Colonial Empires or even the European Union could be consider a continuation of the Roman State, with it language, laws and culture.
As I said, the concept of "state" is a subjective human creation, when did it fall depend of your definition of state. The 2 main answers (476 and 1453) are just the result of applying the 2 main definition to this specific scenario.
This video was great in showing that there isnt really one fall of rome. But i were to pick, I'd still say 1453
The Eastern Roman Empire was the last state who had Roman institutions and called themselves the Roman Empire
Ayo, speaking of rankings, could you do a ranking of all German / Holy Roman Monarchs?
The Emperor was the essentially the Pope before such a position existed. He was the head priest of the Roman Religion just as the Pope is of the Catholics now. He had the title of Pontifex Maximus(Greatest Priest) and the Popes also use that same title.
It depends how you see the question, if you see the kingdom, republic and the empire as different then the fall of the empire is after Augustus became emperor. It has to be after then as that’s when the empire technically started.
5:00 What is Rome?
Baby don't hurt me.
Don't hurt me.
No more.
What I like to think is that Rome transitioned into many new forms through it's history, before slowly fading during the Early-Late middle ages (elements like it's culture, political structure ((especially the senate)), language, military and empire all falling into history during this time period). As so putting any single date for the fall of the Roman Empire in my opinion isn't possible.
Rome was chipped away piece by piece, until the culture that came from bricks and turned it into marble faded away...
13:20 multiple Emperors happened long before Antonius Pius. Tiberius was given all the important powers of the Emperor(Maius Imperium, and Tribunician power) and was hailed Imperator before Augustus was dead.
If we look at it from a institutional perspective with the “Roman” Emperors being the key to what makes the Roman Empire a continuing entity, then it is my opinion that Rome ended in 1453.
But from another perspective the west never really “fell.” Odoacer May have been a King of “Italy” but the Roman senate still largely functioned just as it had before the overthrow. Even when the Ostrogoths moved in to overthrow him, you could say the people there were largely “Roman.” And if they ruled as a subservient of the Roman Emperor then Justinians reconquest of the west was just “reuniting” the empire. So even though Rome fell out of there grasp the empire was already reunited. Call it what you want but this is how I justify a solid end date lol
When they stopped being played by British people speaking with English accents in historical dramas.
Me: *starts talking about the holy Roman empire*
My therapist: yes I understand. Do you see the holy Roman empire in this room?
A better question to ask is: why does it matter so much to us the Fall of Rome? Why do we get mad when someone refers to the Eastern Roman Empire as the Byzantine Empire instead of Roman? How would it matter if if a certain state was heir to Rome? Why did people so desperately want to start a third Rome? For what exactly?
Thing is the political institution of the Roman Republic and Empire lasted such a long time as to evolve and change in massive ways institutionally and culturally compared to it's classic past, and being roman so too evolved from being a regional term denoting living in the roman empire, to post Renaissance being an heir and exemplary of the mightiness of antiquity! I'm pretty sure we've moved past the point of seriously arguing about it as the Tzar did during WW1. The meaning of Rome, goes past semantics and delves more deeply into the culture of "western civilisation!!" which most of the world abides by or is influenced by in some way.
yes, the world is Rome.
I have suggestion for video. When the Roman empire was doomed to fall? Like from which point, the question wasn't about whether it will fall in near future, but about when in near future.
Dear Spectrum, thank you for exploding my brain. Now I have to think about all of these years for many days and days.
No, it never fell, you clearly haven’t heard of the secret finish ending 🇫🇮🇫🇮🇫🇮🇫🇮🇫🇮
It would be nice to a video on Justinian, and maybe Theodosius and Constantine. Especially as something of a counter weight to the rather biased paganaboo videos on these Emperors from Maiorianus.
13:04 Yes I too have suffered the Western Roman Empire campaign in Attila.
I hate the Term “My Truth” as well. Had to reaffirm several times the difference between Subjective Perspective and Objective Truth.
You can believe in the truth or not, it would still be True.
i see the end of the roman empire as the year 1460, the fall of constantinople being the end of the roman empire is like saying the fall of rome was the end, the year 1460 however was the year morea was lost to the ottoman empire, and the roman empire died
Awaiting a video on the glorious Z Zoman Zempire
Can you make a video on the italian kings?
5:40 WOW THE Siege of Mariupol was longer
Will you make hre emperors ranking?
Was this by any chance inspired by recent thread on r/Askhistorians which then linked to another amazing thread?
No. In truth, I don't use Reddit frequently, especially regarding History. It's much more of "passing the time" kind of thing for me.
@@spectrum1140 No shame in being a redditor
Thank you! I hate “my truth”. There is only THE TRUTH & how different people perceive it.
I've always thought a more interesting question was when did the western roman empire end and when did its subjects consider it to have ended
My perspective is that this question shines light on the way that human institutions evolve over time. The empire that fell in 1453 was different from the empire the Crusaders sacked in 1204, which was not the empire of Justinian, which was not the empire of Constantine, which wasn't the empire of Augustus, which wasn't the late republic, which wasn't the early republic, which wasn't the original kingdom.
We see massive changes, in government, religion, culture, language, institutions, and geography over that time, to the point where if you compare 1453 CE to 753 BCE, you'd scarcely see the similarities. It'd be like comparing a a human to an ancestor from 400 million years ago (essentially a fish) without taking note of the many, many small steps along the path that links the two of them together.
The lesson, to me, is that we are wired to see everything as a discrete entity, but reality is often not that simple. You'll find in history, as in biology and other sciences, as many examples of continuity as sharp, convenient cut-offs. Ultimately, there is no single easy answer to 'when Rome fell', and the best answer may depend on what aspects you are interested in or find important. I personally like 1453 because I feel like there's a bias in how people understand history that excludes that part of the world, but its far from the only answer.
im surprised you didnt cover constantine's conversion or theodosius's persecutions as possible dates for the end of the empire. there is an argument that rome lost its true cultural identity when it became christian (that i vehemently disagree with) and its an interesting topic to talk about.
You are watching plenty of Maiorianus recently aren't you?
why
some suggestions for rankings
Ranking ever Holy Roman Emperor
Ranking every king of Prussia/German Emperors
Ranking every Egyptian Pharoah from Narmer to Cleopatra [i know thats impossible]
Ranking every Swedish king.
If we understand Rome as everything that continues the legacy of what started in Italy, then Rome is not really dead at all.
We are still heavily influenced by their legacy.
"there is no better school for virtue, no truer test of moral strength, than life in this same city of Rome." - Lucian (Nigrinus)
For me, when the sacred fire tended by the vestals was extinguished. It was over. Not long after the city was sacked, and the empire fell. Just my opinion.
The empire lived on until 1453.And Rome itself was reconqured during the 530s by Belisarius and hold on until the 750s.
Ancient Rome as an institution ended in 395
Western Rome died in 476
Eastern Rome died in 1453
Trebizond, the final direct remnant of Rome fell in 1461.
@2:43 Cat is out of the bag, sir. It is a fact that the Earth realm is a stationary flat plane under a firmament. Of which the moon, sun, and stars rotate around the principal star, Polaris.
Countries that theoretically have the claim to Rome to this day (although none, I mean none, acknowledge this in any way)
Spain - the legal successor to the Roman throne is technically Ferdinand of Aragon (I myself believe this is only honorary), and his descendants still have the claim to this day.
Italy - their hold on Rome does give them some legitimacy.
USA - their constitution is heavily inspired of the Roman Republic, therefore can be seen as a successor that way.
Turkey - their hold on Constantinople does give them some legitimacy, plus they are a direct successor state of the Ottomans.
Greece - they speak the same Greek that the early Empire used.
Vatican City - somewhat self-explanatory
San Marino - they are a remnant of the Empire going as back as when the Empire existed, making them technically a successor state to Rome.
Russia - they have a claim to be the third Rome.
Austria - they descended from the Habsburgs, the Holy Roman Emperors in addition to having the legal claim as Charles V/I have both the legal ERE claim and being the HRE.
there are more but they are more crackpot than this so I won't list why they have this claim.
In my country Italy our books Say that in 476 the western Roman Empire fell but in 1453 Whit the fall of the costantinople the Roman Empire fell.
Rome doesn't fall while I still stand
The Roman Empire fell when people started asking “when did the Roman Empire fall?”, since that would mean most people acknowledged it had fallen.
I know that this will not happen but it would be fun if you ranked all the Swedish Kings.
Probably when Chuck LaMagne died.
Note: I don't actually know if the Byzantine Empire lasted longer than the HRE.
Byzantines lasted until 1453, HRE until 1806
The rot of our current civilization is this stubborn idea that somehow reality itself is subjective. It is not; reality will wreck you if you think otherwise, and we are all about to pay for the shortsighted stupidity of a great number of people who think in the "my truth" mindset.
What a nice time for Spectrum to speak to this. Appreciated.
You could very well say that it is continuing today, not for the fact that there are latin language countries, but for the papacy, as it is the last continuing institution of the Roman state, even having its seat in Rome, Italy. Going back, even Julius Caesar held the title of Pontifex Maximus. While I am partial to the 1453 date, it is a point you can fairly make.
Ecumenical patriarch is a Roman institution too
It seems to me that it left behind tmits ghost in the form of the pope, who continued to rule Europe in a more sophisticated fashion, spiritually, and thus possessed and was rebirthed, as it were, in its cultural children, France and England, etc.
10:01 A drumroll please
Rome was so amazing that she fell twice. Once in 476 and the twice in 1453. Thrice if you count the Holy Roman Empire in the 1800s
An interesting idea is that people groups can maintain their identity even after a change of religion, language and culture, like the Goths of the third century who were Germanic Pagans but in the early 8th century were Catholic Latin speakers whose culture had totally changed but still viewed themselves as Goths. But then you get the other way of viewing it where the people adopt the customs, language and religion of another where they have more in common with the people they've emulated than their old tradition but still think of themselves as their old people group, like with the Illyrian's there would have been a subsect of their society that was practically identical to Romans but still called themselves Illyrian's, an outsider would certainly think as much, where you have a situation in where someone quacks like a duck, walks like a duck and looks like a duck, are they not a duck?
Likewise people groups that are not conquered will naturally change over time even if left in the same location, look at the France, France was around 1000 years ago and has direct continuity to now but a modern Frenchman wouldn't be able to understand the language and the customs would be quite alien to them.
Nah, just head-canon on part of desperate Christians trying to maintain some sort of connection to Roman greatness. *ANY OTHER* civilization that utterly abandoned it's political structure, societal hierarchy, religion, language, cultural values, architectural identity, geographical capital & general entire way of life itself would be recognized as utterly different from it's predecessors; it's no coincidence that Byzantine is the one where people are so desperate to make exceptions lmao.
The Visi/OstroGoths you mention aren't even recognized as Goth come the turn of the 8th century 💀 they were simply called Spaniards and Italians; what they "called themselves" doesn't matter, just as modern emo dweebs calling themselves "goth" doesn't matter. LARPing as something doesn't actually make you that thing, you'd do best to remember that.
@@KevinJohnson-cv2no According to their own legal code they considered themselves to be and called themselves Goths, I just finished reading Peter Heathers book on the Goths that explains this in detail with reference to archaeological and literary evidence, come back to me when your head isn't up your ass. Likewise last I checked England speakers have a majority Latin-based/influenced language and are no longer Germanic Pagans Warriors, cultures and peoples change, if you ever read Archaic Latin it looks more like Runes, again as I mentioned in another comment Romans of the Middle Republican were completely different to Romans of the Early Empire, you go from an incredibly religious society of men who mainly value Honour to an agnostic society that changes religions and beliefs when fashionable that cares more for comfort than Honour, I'd say they certainly abandoned the vast majority of their prior identity, if you wanted to be really anal then by your standards you could say by the Third Century when Rome stopped being the capital that anyone to call themselves Roman are just larping. Again, come back to me when you read a few books and pull your head out of your ass, I evidently know more than you.
The goths were arian christians tho
@@atticusp6592 "According to their own legal code they considered themselves to be and called themselves Goths" Refer to my previous statement: "The Visi/OstroGoths you mention aren't even recognized as Goth come the turn of the 8th century 💀 they were simply called Spaniards and Italians; what they "called themselves" doesn't matter, just as modern emo dweebs calling themselves "goth" doesn't matter. LARPing as something doesn't actually make you that thing, you'd do best to remember that."
Wasn’t the last remnant of the Roman Empire defeated in 1455? (In the Peloponnese)
The Empire Will never be gone, because it Will stay on our hearts forever
The Roman Empire never fell in my heart