US Air Force Toxic Leadership
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- Опубліковано 16 тра 2024
- Highlighting toxic leadership in the US Air Force. Mover, Casmo, and Gonky weigh in.
Every Monday at 8PM ET, Mover (F-16, F/A-18, T-38, 737, helicopter pilot, author, cop, and wanna be race car driver) and Gonky (F/A-18, T-38, A320, dirt bike racer, author, and awesome dad) discuss everything from aviation to racing to life and anything in between.
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Toxic leadership defined: leadership who puts career advancement ahead of the welfare of their subordinates. Very typical among Air Force officers in my experience.
You nailed it!
Wait for a REAL Conflict they will be removed quickly!
Add Navy leadership too
@@worldwanderer91 I think many have stated that the Navy leadership is worse than the other branches, my brother wasn't allowed to re up, he spent 10yrs in service of the Navy, wanted to and wasn't allowed to.
Pretty typical among high tier supervisors in general from my experience. Problem is it’s 2024, so “toxic leadership” really means white, heteronormative, cis gendered, man.
A good leader serves their subordinates and handles their bosses. A bad leader handles their subordinates and serves their bosses.
When the team doesn't perform, you don't fire the team, you fire the head coach. Wish this mentality was true in all aspects of life.
That's right. The mantra we followed in the infantry was "There are no bad soldiers, only bad leaders".
After I retired from the USAF, I definitely thought how the USAF picked senior leaders needed a lot of improvement until I started working for state government. Compared to that, the USAF was inspired genius...
I was at a very toxic command in the Navy. It influenced my decision not to go career because I had no other perspective on the Navy. There was no reason to believe that every command wasn't the same. Shortly after I got out, I would learn that much of the command's leadership got fired from the Navy because their misconduct was so extreme. I agree with Gonky that the best way to identify a toxic leader is taking measure of command morale seriously.
the problem is, as in the case historically with whistleblowers is, that we have these sensing sessions with leadership but are told not to say anything because everyone fears reprisals. I don't advocate for over the top complaining about the day to day (police calling, maintenance and training etc.) but major things are never addressed because honestly top leaders don't want to hear it because they don't care. They want to see green colors on their pretty slides and go about their next command.
Leadership principle #2 in the Army is look out for the well-being of your subordinates. Being a Maintenance Officer, after mission requirements, I always looked out for the well being of my subordinate Enlisted members that I was responsible for. This was always paramount to me. Mission comes first but we must take care of our subordinates. Take care of your troops and they will take care of you.
There's a difference between hard but fair and disrespectful. Also, we shouldn't conflate bad decision making with toxic leadership. My boss is an SES, and he not only makes bad decisions but is also a toxic leader. He was an O-6 who couldn't make O-7, so his O-8 buddy hired him as an SES. Then his O-8 buddy got himself court martialed, a first for the Air Force. The military does a poor job weeding these guys out at the O-3/4/5 level. Their narcissistic and sociopathic traits allow them to rise through the ranks because those traits make them better equipped to deal with the politics that get them promoted. Our SES is so bad that we've wondered if he's working for the enemy and trying to destroy us. His reputation proceeds him, so he can't find a job somewhere else. So we're stuck with him until he retires. We're going on year 5 with this guy when the typical SES moves every 2 years. So many people have left or retired early to get away from him. I even filed an IG complaint against the guy after I witnessed him disrespecting a colleague in front of a large room of people. The Air Force was like, no problem here. Move on. The Air Force, and military in general, won't fire people for bad behavior unless they're forced to because it makes the news. This has turned me from a selfless patriot into someone who is looking for an opportunity to never work for the government or government contractor again.
I know what you are talking about, i am a DAF Contractor and i see it all the time, these SES's are worthless, some do there jobs, but the majority are political appointment tools! As for what they are talking about, if you are contractor don't make any complaint against anyone you will lose your job faster than you realize. The things that you see when you are on the other side, it is just unbelievable what i have seen and heard.
It’s not that the military does a poor job weeding these guys out at the O3/4/5 level….. they select for it by ensuring only the most craven and careerist will stay long enough to advance within those ranks!
Toxic leadership is self-evident.
I saw it at my UPT base in Texas. Our T-38A squadron almost overnight after a change of command went downhill. Before the change when the students were released for the day, instructors would hang around the squadron, drop in to other flights and talk. After the new CC and new Ops Officer came in…if you didn’t need to be there, you got out of there. The new SQuadron/Cc came from a Pentagon assignment, the Ops Officer from AFIT.
The time frame was late 1980’s. I saw way too many people leaving active duty for the major airlines. Good people. Made me wonder that “if all the good ones are leaving does that mean all the ticket-punchers are left ?”
Listening to this, it seems to me that the higher you climb in rank, you have two increasingly acute choices to make:
"Do I keep quiet and keep my career? "or : "Is this the hill I risk dying on?"
“Even when you get someone good they’re muted” that’s exactly right Mover.
That thumbnail perfectly summarized my experience with Air Force leadership. And it's the only reason I got out. It wasn't PT, deployments, or nagging injuries or missed holidays/family events. I signed up for that. It was the excessive pettiness on top of everything else. Redoing CBTs I was current on because the commander wanted everyone to have the same expiration date. Going to 10am commanders call after a night shift. BS like that
Even as an Army guy I saw this happening in the USAF. Our TF logistician was a USAF E8, I asked him about making E9 and he said he would never want it. It requires too much off duty time away from family. Involvement in local Jaycees, Boys & Girls clubs, school boards, et al.
I joined the Air Force after the Army, it still blows my mind that volunteer charity work plays into promotion for Air Force enlisted. While I think it ‘s OK to encourage it, making it a prerequisite for promotion is absolutely insane.
People who crave leadership generally tend to be the worst leaders. There’s something to be said for humble reluctance
Yes, the first 6 to 12 months of WWII saw a lot of shuffling in the command slots, as the peacetime commanders got replaced with combat leaders. Problem is, the next near peer conflict we get into will be won or lost with the leadership then in place, with the assets already in theater. It will be won or lost in _weeks._ We wont have time to shuffle the paper pushers out of combat leadership.
That’s essentially the case with the Philippines. By all accounts MacArthur was a toxic leader but instead of being removed he kept getting kicked up. His failure to prepare the Philippines for Japanese attack should’ve gotten him fired. But he wasn’t, he kept his command which would then lead to a pretty public running dispute with Adm King. It would require intervention from the President and Gen. Marshall to sort it out.
I can now see where a lot of the Spectre plot-lines came from and why the character was grounded rather than being given kudos for his efforts.
I did 20 years in the Air Force, and now work in the civilian world. Most of this discussion applies outside the military also. I currently dealing with a toxic leader.
I was a senior NCO in the infantry and the easiest way to identify who was a good leader and who was a bad leader was the tone they'd use when dealing with subordinates.
The guy who has to raise his voice, be hostile, command in an authoritarian manner is a bad leader. The good leaders can get everything they want from their subordinates by just asking nicely, because they look up to him, want his approval and will bend over backwards to impress him.
But because the bad leader is loathed, he has to scream and yell to get just the bare minimum out of his troops. It's the universal litmus test for who's a good infantry NCO and who's a bad one: How how loudly they each have to order their troops to get them moving. The bad leaders have to scream and yell. The really good leaders can get their troops moving with just a nod.
That was great. You three communicate well together. Please do more of this on other topics. Would love to see a discussion/thoughts on the war in Ukraine, as just one example. Or anything else really.
Also, Gonky seems like a really nice and laid back guy.
Difference between a leader and self-serving careerist, the leader sticks out his/her neck for others, self-serving careerist, everyone else's neck is on the line
I experienced this issue as a first-term Airman, and it's a big part of why I didn't pull a second term. Unfortunately, we have a HUGE number of the same type of "leaders" in the private government contract arena, where a Program Manager "must be a retired 0-6", and must also be an incompetent douche.
In my enlisted experience toxic leaders in the Air Force are usually self-serving careerists who view their subordinates as tools to use to further their own careers. In addition for career fields like Aircraft MX and Security Forces you'll find the Army version of toxic leadership where some leaders are toxic and sadistic simply because they enjoy your suffering or believe that you're supposed to be miserable. Even some of the Air Force recruiting drive seems to miss the memes and normalize some of this abuse in their ads targeting people for aircraft MX where they try to normalize being overworked and neglected. Furthermore, the current promotion system encourages toxic leadership in those two career fields because officers and NCO's are promoted largely based on their metrics in addition to being "selected" as a golden child. Stats is what matters, not taking care of your troops.
Big Blue has a lot to go through if they actually want to address toxic leadership.
I would have loved to hear Doug's take on this from the psychological perspective! The way I understand it, all the traits that comprise a bad leader make them significantly more probable to rise through the ranks (they are more capable of brushing off the social thorns and abrasion), while the traits that make a great leader cause them to either walk away, be disciplined, or overlooked, when they are put in a position of conflict to use their subordinates as a scapegoat.
I’m disappointed that we don’t address these leaders who are not taking care of their troops. I don’t know how to describe how lack of leadership demoralizes everyone. As an installation IG, I had to investigate these allegations. It gave me no pleasure to identify their poor performance. When a case would land on my desk, it meant that other leaders have failed to identify failing leadership. We have to always hold leaders accountable and identify and remove incompetent leaders.
How many junior leaders become or are allowed to stay douchebags, simply because their senior raters aren't observing and developing them? Most of my written performance evaluations were focused on advancing me rather than adjusting my performance. Faint praise was the only negative indication I ever received for my performance. I never received top block evaluations but that never prevented me from getting my next promotion. I was extended in command twice simply because there were no other officers available.
A measure of command leadership I found, are the officers working to avoid a mistake because they're afraid of the blowback from leadership, of getting in trouble, basically out of fear? Or are they working hard not to make a mistake because they don't want to let the skipper down. That is, they're working for a man they admire and they don't want their mistake putting a black mark on his record and the commands.
When I was a young airman, we had a 1st Sergeant that I didn't like..but it dawned on me after a time that he was in fact a very fair person. He was tough, but he didn't have favorites. I still didn't like him, but I sure respected him. A few years later, at another base, another command, we had a 1st Shirt who was amiable, friendly, and a lying SOB 24/7.
Very much like the "career path" from PO-2 to PO-1 in the Navy. None of it had anything to do with my rate, nor even leadership and Navy heritage. After reviewing the booklet for standards to advance to E-6, I called my detailer and told him I was separating.
Never looked back and I'm sitting on my porch watching birds in my retirement..................
Retired O-5 aircrew here. I saw a toxic SQ CC get fired. As the crew AC, I was asked by CEVG how it was going. He and I went for walk outside, told him the truth. However, in the ANG, it is more of problem as the pipeline for CC is a small funnel of specific people. I saw some people change for the worse once in charge. Outside the unit CCs are a big problem. Worse is the AGs for your state, another opportunity for toxicity and much much more damaging.
Gonky “stood up for his guys……” nuff said
The AIr (and Army) Guard is so much worse in many ways, good ol’ boy club, nepotism, brown nosing, state politics, etc. I’ve decent people losing their minds after they get some power. I’ve got two years left and I can’t wait to leave it all behind.
I just spoke with my friend who is a chief and he told me he just went TDY to another base and the wing commander at that base didn’t want any direct feedback from enlisted leaders, any info from the enlisted leaders had to come from a colonel. 🤦🏻♂️🤷🏻♂️ Its not surprising to me because leadership is not something that can be taught easily, it’s mostly intrinsic and some people have it and some don’t.
This is a great clip! Thanks!
Thanks for the support!
I wonder if Mover’s example was a DCM? I was there when Mover was and we got a DCM that was a pain in the ass. Completely shifted the culture.
Love the Casmo combo 👍
So who is mentoring junior leaders? Toxic behavior didnt come from nowhere. It develops over time. Junior leaders are supposed to be assigned senior ncos to advise them. What happened to this?
Great discussion. GONKY you pretty much nailed it with the squadron bar or ready room example. If everyone pretty much disappears there’s your answer. MOVER good stuff as well…agreed.
Great topic. Most retirees could write a book about this. A short sea story. One morning, not deployed, two Navy LCDRs, the Ops O and the Maint O having a knock down screaming contest (NOT spitting whispering, but LOUD) in the main hallway of the hangar. It was the classic Hollywood script; people were closing their doors or reversing course to avoid getting close to these guys. I had a personal figure of speech for the incessant bickering between squadron department heads, the O-4 wars; and this day sealed that outlook in my book. It was all about the politics of promotion, getting the coveted 1 of 5 FITREP instead of the career ending 2 of 5.
I had Air Force maintenance officers that I would follow to hell and high water. I had others I wouldn’t follow to free money! 🤷♂️
Once a guy made LTC and got a squadron they got a lobotomy and a hemorrhoidectomy, to become a perfect asshole and perhaps make 06 or 07. You know why I retired as a Major.
I know it when I experience it and have over years in maintenance and support.
Now we need a t-shirt that says: "Gonky says 'Don't be a Douche!'" 😄
I am glad I am farrr away from every level of the service now. It was starting to go bad when I was in, I can only imagine what it's like now.
Gents on your next video can you do a tribute to our fallen brother in arms, SrA Roger Fortson?
Sad. I have no connection to him other than being in the Air Force, but seeing the story just made me feel bad and sad.
@@stephenpalfy8226 Same here it took a while for us to hear about it overseas, but upper leadership hasn't said anything. A lot of us are hurting but would like to find more ways to connect with each other instead of being divided as some would have it.
I think a lot depends on the CO (i.e. person(s) above the toxic leader in question). Some leaders take climate surveys seriously. Many either don't take them seriously or delegates the issue to someone who won't take official action for whatever reason. I've seen a toxic command before and the Navy essentially solved it by speeding up personnel rotation. It had a, 'they'll be transferred out soon,' mentality.
When I first got into the Air Force back in the late 70's my first Squadron Commander had highest Article 15 rate not just in the Wing, not just on the Base, but in MAC. Thankfully about a year or so after I got there he was relieved. Thankfully that experience was not typical in my career, especially my last commander, who was amazing.
my last 1sgt said he didn't trust any nco that didn't have an art 15.
Art. 15s were no threat to me, I wasn't planning to stay in anyway. I came in with no stripes, I was fine with leaving with no stripes... They hated that.
My sister was in the Royal Australian Navy. Wanted to progress down the officer path but her immediate superior laughed at her, saying she wasn't what the navy wanted. Or rather, what this douchebag wanted. I seriously wonder why people enlist in any armed forces, given how they're treated, especially after they retire and have problems. US vets and Australian vets have a lot in common, it seems.
Where I saw this in the Navy, which fortunately was rare, if the unit got results, the toxic nature of the Command leadership is ignored. But even if the unit appeared successful, but retention slips, that would get attention.
It’s not rare in all branches these days. Troops are not reenlisting or joining either.
Great discussion, p.s. 44 days till Gonky lands aboard the Hornet School discord. 😅
Depends on who you ask, tho. I mean, at one point half the armed forces wanted to strangle Deadly Doug whilst the other half thought he was the finest military leader of his generation.
The answer is simple. People need to do their jobs. Do them right. Do what is right. What makes this difficult or impossible is that some people find this concept to be impossible for them to do. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. It’s human nature. And when there are no consequences or repercussions, the sky’s the limit for wrongdoing. I see it every time I drive my car.
During WWII, outstanding enlisted got field commissions. These individuals were called mustangs. I wonder if yall would dig into this phenomenon and tells us your thoughts?
I am a Mustang. But there are different ways to define that. I was enlisted, then went Through a officer program. There are those that got temporary battlefield commissions. Almost entirely in WW2. I was Marine Corps then went Navy. But I did find out that those that went through the Academy did get preferential promotions. But there were a few exceptions. Remember, leadership at the top is for everyone, a pyramid scheme not everyone can go all the way. That leaves a bunch of very talented persons left behind.
@@raywhitehead730 Thank you for your service, and for the reply.
I've been wondering when I was going to find a company to work for that doesn't have this, when I was still in the Army, I used to stay low and move fast, and didn't rock the boat to often unless I really felt a need, I think so many lower enlisted people would love to speak out on toxic leadership, however the nail that sticks out gets hammerd, and depending on where you hit the ball from so to speak, has a massive effect on wether or not you hit your target up In The ivory tower, if your hitting the ball from the bottom of the ladder it won't get far, and you,ll be wondering why you couldn't of just kept your mouth shut while your doing extra duties such as weekend guard 😂
Thank you for this discussion. It would seem this is not an isolated problem but a Western problem in military institutions. The profound statement that you guys made was how toxic leadership impacts on retention. Especially ego driven. No accountability even with surveys, like the toxic leadership reporting.
Another point, if I may for consideration, as I see this as part of the issue within military institutions is recently how incredibly top heavy western military institutions are and the impulsion for such individuals to leave career legacy symbols that appear to be some sort of career KPI tick box. The presentation over substance if you will.
The last point, I wish to highlight is the extension of military roles and appointments to civilians. There appears to be an encroachment of civilianisation within roles that were traditionally military appointments. I see this as an extension to your discussion that has its own problems in its own right that it may not have direct correlation to toxic leadership but can be an influencing factor - Toxic Leadership leads to a festering toxic culture.
A great quote, I think sums it up: "Culture Eats Strategy for Breakfast" - Drucker.
Thank you for discussing this topic and for the input of your subscribers. There seems to be a common theme that is an international one.
Love the Channel.
There is an added burden to get leadership right because with Nuke War, you may not get the chance to deploy better leaders. Need a Mantra - 'What would Robert Heinlein do?'
The military is fundamentally hierarchical. During combat this is a necessity. Many other times it is a liability.
Would unit leadership be improved if higher commanders were allowed to select their subordinates from a list of qualified candidates? Trust and confidence is essential to leading and following. How do commander's trust and have that confidence in their subordinate leaders if Personnel Command is dropping strangers into the unit? O-1s on their first assignments are going to be unknown quantities, but every assignment after that should be based on invitations from superiors who know the individual.
Unless he is a douchebag himself, no commander is going to want his subordinate units to be led by douchebags. If his subordinate units' fail, then he fails.
Toxic leadership is really not leadership at all. Especially the 'fingerpointers' I could of fixed this if it weren't for____. Met him/her too many times.
My dad was USAF/29yr, Col/fighters…and he said another issue is ONLY academy grads are getting fighter slots. That creates an only Academy centric mindset….insular.
It doesn't work that way. Commissioning source has nothing to do with whether you track fighters.
When I retired in 96 most in SNCO and officers were more interested in getting promoted than the mission. Now 28 yrs later it even worse. Our country has turned into a banana republic, instead of being a constitutional republic
These days you can add DEI and political pandering to the issues picking top brass. I spoke to the CO of my third squadron when he retired. After he got his bird he had no interest in promotions.
First :)
Just a question. Is it truly toxic leadership in this case or is it that today’s airmen aren’t as strong, resilient, complaining because they have to put out more than what they want or what?
Yes however, toxic underhanded incompetent leaders have always been in the military. We just skirted the problems many times rather than addressing them with the individuals. Just thoughts.
There's a difference between hard but fair and toxic. Maybe people are weaker today, but the toxic leaders do exist. I work for one, and no one would consider me soft. I fell on my sword to report the guy to the IG. By fell on my sword, I made it known to a select few that I was doing it so they understood someone had their back. Otherwise IG reports are anonymous outside the IG.
@@major__kong IG's are not worthless, i saw them remove a major for some questionable misconduct with his staff and the 1 star was the one that came down and told him he was being removed. I remember, i was in the building he was flanked by his staff and security forces. It was interesting, i had never see a 1 star do such a thing.
Toxic leadership is the same whether it's tomorrow, today, or yesterday. Had the same issues when I was AF active duty in the late 80s, early 90s.
Toxic, like putting DEI before lethality.
It's easy - white or male? Guity. Not? Not.
Hackworth called them perfumed dons.
“Even when you get someone good they’re muted” that’s exactly right Mover.