Winchester M2 Rifle
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- Опубліковано 28 лип 2016
- / forgottenweapons
In the previous video, we looked at the Winchester G30M rifle as it was submitted to Marine Corps trials in 1940. When the trial result came back with the G30M in last place, Winchester immediately assigned David Williams to work on adapting it to resolve the problems found in testing. What Williams did was to replace the tilting bolt with a virtual duplicate of the Garand's two-lug rotating bolt. Williams also worked to reduce the weight of the gun, and was able to bring it down to a remarkable 7.5 pounds (3.4kg).
This prototype of the rifle (which Winchester optimistically designated the M2, implying that it would supercede the M1 Garand) was actually made largely from M1 Garand forgings, as Winchester was by this time build M1 rifles on contract. The receiver, bolt, and operating rod in this rifle was converted from Garand parts. Clearly it is not a finished product, and show many signs of being a shop prototype - but it was in this state when it was shown to ReneStudler of the Ordnance Department in early 1941. Studler was impressed by the design, but knew that it would not replace the M1 at that point. However, he urged Winchester to scale the gun down to the .30 Carbine cartridge (which Winchester had themselves developed) and submit it in the second round of the Light Rifle testing which was to happen soon.
Does a two-lug rotating bolt, short stroke gas tappet, and Garand-style operating rod sound like a familiar set of features? Well, there is good reason...
Winchester took Studler's advice, and the scaled-down version was developed in just a few weeks and proved to be the best gun in the trials. It would be developed quickly into the M1 Carbine, and become the most-manufactured semiauto rifle of WWII.
At that point Winchester would set aside the .30-06 side of this rifle design for a little while, as they had plenty of work now with M1 Garand and M1 Carbine production. But we will see the M2/G30M/G30 come back in new form in the next episode...
Ian, if you ever make T-Shirts, please have one with a pen cap with the text "Universal Disassembly Tool."
Awesome idea!
Yes!
It kinda looks like a Ruger 10/22 and a 1903 Springfield had a forbidden love child...
does anybody remember Tales Of The Gun on History Channel? I'm glad that someone has picked up the mantle.
Yep, but TotG, was limited and glossed over much of what Ian covers, while in better manner and without studio writers dumbing it down, he concisely imparts history & engineering.
Sorry Ian I mean no disrespect; I intend it in honour, 'You are the techno-geek of guns.' with a good beard too.
My mustache will never be as good as his.
+Kyle D. Arthur Watch the Japanese firearms episode. That's the one you see Ian's dad.
Razor1uk no he’s gun Jesus
Now we get ancient aliens and the mystery of skin walker ranch. Talking about dumbed down! Lol
HOLY SHIT! I had no idea this series on the Winchester military semi-auto trials guns was gonna end up with the M1 carbine, it's all come full circle!
I had the pleasure of going to the Cody museum when i was 10 years old, I think i'm 15 years overdue for another trip!
You grew up in a road trip family too?
As a guy getting into firearms design I love this channel and the seeing the history of firearms designs. Helps me figures out various functions and get ideas for my own stuff.
So an m1 and an 03 had a kid and made the step brother of the m1 carbine. Also wouldn’t it be interesting to have an 1903 stock with the m1’s internals? It probably wouldn’t work but it’d be interesting.
Great history on this whole development. I had never known that the Carbine derived from developmental full size rifles. Definitely a lot of thought going into these. Great video as always. Thank you.
You can really see where the elements of the M1 carbine derived. Awesome video👍🏼🇺🇸
Thanks Ian for sharing the story. I really like this Winchester series.
Man this series needs its own playlist! :) Thanks Ian!
indeed
Just left Wyoming now I'll have to make another trip
Poor Ed. He got designed out of his own rifle.
I have heard of but never seen any pictures about the M2. Thanks for a fascinating series of videos its rare to be able to follow a design through its design process.
I love this series you've put together. Seeing the development evolution is really excellent!
Very nice
Thanks for the video, really enjoying the Winchester development series
Man this rifle in .276 pederson would be slick slick slick.
Light, low recoil. Sounds like a soldier of the era's dream.
Or even in .280 Ross
If they made a replica in 243 I would be game
That looks like an old 1917 Enfield barrel. I think Winchester goofed by not pushing these 'M2s" out the door as a 30-06 Sporting rifle right after the war, but heck, I am sure they had a reason.
I've always had a low opinion of Rene Studler on account of his stubborn insistence that NATO's standard rifle round had to be the rather pointless 7.62x51 (seriously, why not stick with the .30-06 if you *have* to have a full-power .30 caliber) and his knee-jerk dismissal of the more practical 7mm round that Britain was offering.
RedXlV amen
You have to remember the US after the War was very demanding. They even blocked the UN in Niagara Falls on Navy Island which Canada would have given a soverign lease to basically and pretty much every nation was good with this except the US.
Studler's name makes me shudder but after the War the US was not really that helpful.
@@adraper6816 I am Canadian. You I assume are Albertan. Because your argument that I am wrong is saying the US was unhelpful was an example of the US being unhelpful during a period of weak Conservative Leadership.
The whole story of the video was the US being unhelpful and slowing down development of better equipment. Later resulting in new equipment needing to be developed.
This was the US MO during the Cold War. Making bad long term decisions at nearly every turn impacting the world in negative ways for the better part of a century. (that is just fact, the Latin American strategy, the Afghan strategy, the Cuban Strategy, The Middle East Strategy... all were poor.)
This video is about the bad long term decision that was later changed when it came to the NATO standard Ammo.
Yeah. Thanks. That was really interesting. My first reaction was - "That looks like an M-1" and after the explanation I can see why.
.
Excellent historical video.
I enjoyed this episode very much Thank You Ian. Warm Greetings ftom Poland
Another superb video, thank you.
Nice backstory, seen the Winchester House museum in San Jose. Lots'a history there too. With a nice firearm display
You know you have truly 'Made It' on youtube when there are crumby parody videos of your channel being made.....
?
Kind of interesting to think what might have happened if the Canadians and then the British had adopted a .303 version.
This is really interesting. It's like the evolutionary history of one of the most iconic firearms of WW2. "Want to know where the M1 Carbine came from? Here, let me take you on a trip to the past..."
Springfield front, M1 Carbine middle, M1 Garand rear
Love the comments "Looks just like an M1 Carbine" Well ummm... might want to watch the video or maybe again because... *sigh* just watch the video.
@@TheRealColBosch
Do you have any idea the amount of nothing I could do in that time? C'mon, man.
The fact that the designers and inventors handled this particular prototype. 🤯
that is one sexy rifle, Id like to see a manufacturer make a finished reproduction even tho though that will never happen
I was thinking the same thing.
pretty cool how you can see all the filing they did on this rifle
thats a really nice looking rifle.
After watching this video, all I could think about was if Studler (sorry for the misspelling) had mentioned that it would also make for a good BAR replacement. At that time the BAR was already vastly inferior to the other light machine guns in service with other nations, and offering a rifle with similar handling to the standard rifle would have been advantageous to training and procurement in the field under duress.
The tappet system would have melded organically with a heavy barrel (barrel weight offset somewhat by the lighter gas system) and a bipod (space to mount one easily with the short gas system). Pair that with modified magazines already in stock, a set of M1917 sights, and a select fire trigger group, and you would have yourself a rifle with a better reputation than the Garand itself (and that's saying something).
The shape of the stock/hand guard reminds me a lot of the M1903 Springfield.
cool history !! thanks !
I was about to say this gun was gonna be suuuper expensive at the auction... but a museum and an auction house aren't really the same thing
Fascinating story
Committed to the Garand, and the rifle machine tools maxed out on that. The next largest maker is Winchester and they are going to need a huge whack of the carbines too. Makes sense logistically to put you second or third largest weapons maker be the point on the support troops carbine....
Wow that is a smooth gun
So basically an M14, a decade earlier...
fascinating, thanks
This is a Forgotten Weapon.
Seems to me that if you had an M1A receiver, bolt and op rod, some Springfield parts, a few carbine parts, access to a machine shop, and more money than brains you could probably build something close to this. It would be fun.
Incredible, every time I watch a video or read a clip about my favorite rifle, the m1 carbine, I get a chubby !
You should do a video about comparing different gas system that were invented. Is the tap gas system of this rifle superior to the one found on the m14?
hey, have you ever gotten your hands on a Finnish (kv)kk62. i have heard "stories" about them.
Hi Ian
Thank you for you brilliant videos
can I ask you during your filming of these rifle's I noticed that all of the woods used in the stock piece's
look the same,
what wood is this?
thanks once again for the videos.
Walnut is the most common wood in American firearms. The rifle in this video in particular is walnut finished with linseed oil.
+smittywjmj thank you!!
Awesome! No dislikes!
Rene Studler, the architect of the M-14/M-16 debacle (according to many internet historians).
It would be very interesting if you were able to get your hands on a Valmet M82.
holy shit the m1 evolved
Does the Cody Museum have the Winchester/Hawken/Gemmer Collection from the Missouri Historical Society?
Ian,was the trigger assy. modified from an orig. Garand?
How does gas tappet system differ from short stroke system? Or are they basically the same?
Looks kinda like a M1903 mixed with the M1. I like it
the marines adopted the m1 garand.... but were still stuck using the 1903 for a majority of troops till the 50s.....
Have you ever come across the .22 belt fed guns he designed?
Looks like a Glenfield .22 and a Springfield 1903 had a love child.
i would be interested in seeing a video on further development (if any) of the Williams 'tappet piston' system. you don't see any modern firearms utilizing this and it would be curious why otherwise seemingly solid idea fell by the way side and hasn't seen any further development with any large manufacturer or commercial production guns. Ian, if you have some thoughts and/or goo examples in mind of other weapons utilizing this 'tappet piston' please include this in your list of future videos.
Well, there will be two more such videos next week... :)
I believe the FN SCAR uses a tappet system. It's about the only "modern" rifle I know of that does so, though.
Like the other guy said, the FN SCAR uses the tappet system. I imagine that the reason it's not so commonly used is because you need a heavy bolt carrier or a bolt and op-rod in order to have the inertia you need for the gun to fully cycle from such a short "tap." Guns like the G30M, M2, and M1/M2/M3 carbine seem to accomplish this by putting the weight in the op-rod, and the SCAR does it with a massive bolt carrier, similar to a G36's bolt carrier.
i'm not familiar with SCAR beyond the fact that it's out there and ridiculously expensive for what it is. i do however appreciate the fact that tappet still in isn't forgotten. I'm contemplating trying tappet setup on one of my AKs for clean-running suppressor friendly setup. fabrication should be easy enough, interesting not very difficult project. i would love to learn more about 'tappets' so i don't dive into the deep end. thank you for the reply on SCAR. i appreciate it.
Patches my son has a scar loves it
I would be concerned that the corrosive ammo used in the 30-06 at the time would have rusted that gas system out pretty quickly. The M1 Carbine shot non-corrosive ammo only.
Hey Ian, how rare are tanker Garands? I saw one the other day at my local gun show and came very close to buying it for about the same price as a normal Garand.
They are uncommon, not exactly rare. I'd buy one if I saw it (and knew it was legit)
Typically not that hard to find, but they are all commercial modifications (not military). If you want one as a shooter, go for it - I have one myself and rather like it. They have a reputation for unreliability because some were not well built, so be aware of that.
Many I've seen are reworked franken M1s and not actual tanker Garands.
+Forgotten Weapons I had a chance to examine an older "tanker" conversion some years ago. It was "wonky". At one point the op rod jumped out of its track in the receiver. They are nifty little blasters though and I'd like a competently built one some day.
KJ Fulton makes one, but it's significantly more expensive (and I imagine much better)
So did the G30R video never get uploaded or was it lost, or was the gun that would be shown off sold too fast?
The G30R is in the IMT collection, and not the Cody Museum. I have a video on it, but haven't published it yet.
How did you decide car-bine vs. car-been pronunciation?
Both are correct.
+Forgotten Weapons Could you do a video on a Star Z-84? it would be awesome
As long as you don't add a syllable and and call it a carabine... then you're just doing bad german.
+PrivateZim or your rock climbing.
*you're dammit
What wood is the handguard/stock made of? looks like somekind of rosewood..
Just walnut. Linseed oil on the stock gets that red sheen when it oxidizes over many years
Ian, do you think you'll ever look at a Lahti L26 LMG?
If I can find one, yeah. Not many in the US, though.
I just saw an anti-gun ad on this channel. Is that okay with you Ian? I don't know if you get to decide what ad plays, but you should report that one.
Choochoocazoo it’s because the Democrats want to disarm the people for a full government take over.
pound for pound the m1 carbine has the most fun factor of any rifle.
Plenty of rimfire semi autos are fun by the ounce.
Garand is the most fun gun
Looks like a M1 Garand and a M1903. I bet Karl hates it, knowing his past with M1 carbines
With the front sight of a K98
+Joseph Buchanan Umm, no. The front sight of a M1903.
+JDizzleFoShizzle the 1903 Springfield copied the sights from the 98k and got sued for the whole gun being a exact copy of the 98k from bolt to sight.
Very Interesting 🤔
Early, and keep it up Ian!
Studler's name makes me cringe. He wanted a legacy. A good case of be careful what you wish for. This was an interesting video though I really enjoy watching these.
Pretty.
What is wrong with the guides welded in to the barrel?
The heat from welding can warp or deform the barrel, possibly even damage the rifling on the inside.
Wouldn't a 7 1/2 pound .30-'06 rifle kick like a mule?
Question. Years ago, I heard that the urban terrorist group, the SLA had M-1's that were converted to fully automatic fire. I assume that was the carbine and not the M1 Garand . Is that correct?
03-A3 front sight
We should just call him "M2" Williams
It is pretty.
Profile looks a little too much like a mauser to be safe
If that's 7.5#, I wonder how much it would weigh in .276 Pederson?
The Winchester LMR that was chambered for the .224 Winchester E2 intermediate cartridge only weighed 5.5 lbs, so a .276 would be somewhere in between the two.
what exactly does gas tappitt do that long stroke doesn't? as far as i can tell, it essentially puts a mini short stroke piston in the gas block of a long stroke gun. how does adding a bunch of small parts to accomplish the same goal help you? you already have the long oprod, might as well have the gas act directly on it, rather than have a pointless middleman.
Weight.
@@warrenharrison9490 it's not any lighter
It looks like the big brother of m1 carbine
would it have taken a 1903 Springfield bayonet
Did I just not see this?
Do you watch Full30? Video publish there a couple days before UA-cam.
That's happened to me before.
also realized if winchester made a M1 rifle with detachable mags just before or in the early stages of WW2 why would the M1 maintain an N-block clip with 8 rounds instead of having 20?
because having a rifle with a clean profile is easier to shoot from the prone. And 8 rds was still 3 rds more than most rifles of the day had.
Not to mention clips were vastly simpler to make, less concerning when the soldier loses them, and less to go wrong with dents and bent feed lips. BAR mags are notorious for being fragile.
What is the largest calibre flintlock you have ever seen?
24 Pound ships cannon.
But that isn't a flintlock. It just has a touch hole and it's ignited with a torch.
naval guns did get flintlock firing mechanisms - they stopped the wicks of firer getting damp/wet from sea spray blown in through gun ports & shell hole damage, and meant the gun deck was safer without lit wicks maybe being dropped into powder stashes for the guns next firings, later they switched to percussion cap firers too; naval guns follwed the safety and more efficient firing developments from artillery and musketry/rifles.
M1 carbine on steriods...... ;o)
It looks like a really big Mini-14.
...
+Pedro Domenech I too share in your face palm....
+gunfuego It's just...
Herp-A-Derp....
What? What is so mind-bogglingly stupid about my comment?
Why did so many guns of this time had a five round magazine instead of ten or twenty?
Feed problems. The more rounds your magazine has the longer it needs to be. The longer magazine needs a longer spring and by Hooke's law that means there is a larger difference in pressure exerted by the spring between the first cartridge and the last.
There is also an ergonomics problem with long magazines if you are expected to fire the gun from a prone position, and for the removable box magazines there is a cost consideration.
There might be even more reasons, but those are the ones I know of.
+Trabber Shir agreed with everything, would like to add one though:
These were from a time period when all of the military placed much more emphasis on "one shot one kill", there was much less suppressive fire and "spray and pray" fighting going on and as such they didn't see the need for many more rounds than 5. Hell, 8 in a semi auto (garand) was considered an insane amount of firepower and even called wasteful by some upon adoption.
Just compare the kills per shots fired during ww2 vs Vietnam.
I think this is a better explanation
A slick belly rifle is easier to shoot while prone than one with a magazine sticking out of it. One reason when the STEN and FG42 had side feeding magazines. Also no no is quite right about old school preference for slow aimed shots vs gaining fire superiority with a hail of lead.
Shame that couldn't have been in.276 pederson
so it took what, four years and thousands of dollars for winchester to find out that the army was right to adopt the Garand? all they did was end up with a slightly modified Garand and they still wanted to try and sell it
Well, how many companies have been doing the exact same thing for decades with the AR-15 and AR-18? At least the AR-18 derivatives like the SCAR, G36, and SA80 (depending on who you talk to) can be considered an improvement, where there's not a whole lot to be said on the AR-15 side.
i don't really know if that is relevant, aren't most builds of those made for the civilian market while military contracts should be given out to parent companies like like FN, H&K, while in this case it is a american manufacture copying an american manufacture to sell guns with a military contract. so even if the canadian military was interested in the rifle why would they not license build Garands in canada instead of something that's not quite a Garand?
This man is knowledgeable and articulate, with good instructor “presence”. He holds a line of thought well and delivers with the polish of a seasoned professor. He’s not showing off or talking like a yahoo for effect; he really knows his subject, in and out. As a former jarhead, I find the term ”gun” jarring to the ear (pun intended), but that’s a minor quibble.
so I'm moderately interested in firearms and their history etc... and I'd like to go to a shooting range (indoor) with my father (I'm 15), but my father has no background with hunting or firearms in any way, how should I approach asking him to go with me to a shooting range
btw I've never even touch a gun nor has my father as far as I kn
take him to a local range where you can rent firearms.
do it as a surprise birthday present
+Menaceblue3 well I've already form a indoor range to go to that does rentals etc, but it wouldn't be me taking him, it be me asking him to take me, I'm 15 years old, and my father has no firearms background or expierence in any way
+countercorps
most places have instructors or safety officers that can provide "one on one" instruction and show you how to safely operate a firearm.
in regards to asking your father in taking you, I'm pretty sure most ranges don't allow kids younger than 18 to handle them without adult supervision. My ¢.02 would be to take your father together into the range and maybe do it as a father/son outing to enjoy. just to let you know it will probably cost some money. some ranges in my area are $20.00 per person as a non member for one hour. plus the price of rental, instruction, and ammo can make the bill pretty high. expect to spend around the ballpark of $100.00 for both of you.
"Hey dad, I'd like to shoot some guns, can we go to the range some time?"
As others have said, most ranges offer, or even insist upon taking a safety course.
If you're interested in hunting or what not, most states offer a hunter safety course, in mine it was free, and available to all ages.
If it moves 0.100" then it would be 2.54mm of travel.
Looks like a semi auto m1903
Why the gloves?
Ian wears gloves when the location requires them. RIA doesn't use gloves as there is an increased risk of dropping the firearms. Many museums worry about skin oils damaging the metal.
Timothy Soen
OK, thanks. I was curious because in the other ones he wasn't, but you cleared all that up for me.
spring field in a semiauto? lol
The M1 Carbine? So Winchester was right, they could make a better gun than the m1 garand.
10:08 Face of Thomas Jefferson. Anybody else see it?!!