W.A.R. - the Winchester Automatic Rifle
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- Опубліковано 31 лип 2016
- / forgottenweapons
With the failure of the G30M and G30R to lead to any military orders (American or otherwise), the Winchester company took the advice of the Ordnance Department to scale the design up to an automatic rifle. The BAR had a number of known shortcomings in WWII, and the military was interested in replacing it. The Winchester Automatic Rifle (WAR) offered the same basic set of features with a lighter weight and lower cost.
The WAR used a 2-lug rotating bolt like the Garand's, in combination with a Williams short stroke gas tappet action. Chambered for the standard .30-06 cartridge and using 20-round magazines, the WAR could be used as a semiautomatic rifle or in full automatic with a rate of fire of approximately 600 rpm (slightly more or less depending on whether a muzzle device was used).
The WAR passed initial Ordnance inspection with flying colors, and a contract for 10 was placed, for more extensive testing. It passed these tests well, but they took place in the summer of 1945. By the time a major contract was a real possibility, World War II had ended, and the budget for new arms development was slashed. Had the war continued, the WAR likely would have begun to replace the BAR in US military service.
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you just know the guy who came up with that acronym must've thought he was the cleverest s.o.b
@@bradleykoperski7198 uh huh yeah
@Heyward Shepherd (a wild grammar nazi appears)
*opposition not composition
Itskevonejones Yo He probably meant ‘competition’ lol
Str8 up lol
Executive type, gave himself a raise.
A very fortunate acronym, unlike the winchester automatic pistol
bruhhhhhhhhh
Noooo
Stoooop
Or worse Fusil Automatico Pesado, *FAP*
Imagine robbing a bank, and saying...
"HANDS UP, I GOT A WAP!"
@@jedinight235 bank tellers and customers start to dance, stripper poles descend from the ceiling, club lights start flashing everywhere
Its a shame that this wasnt implemented in the military. It truly is a more practical rifle than the B.A.R
I'm not sorry this didn't get adopted. It's ludicrous to me that a weapon that was being developed this late, being considered for the light machine gun role, did not have a quick change barrel. Meanwhile, over in Europe, before WWII even kicked off, FN had brought out an improved version of the B.A.R. that did have a quick change barrel, a better bipod that was relocated to the gas cylinder, and a few other improvements (including easier field stripping).
Honestly, the U.S. should have manufactured a version with those same improvements; it could have been done with minimal changes to a production line we already had in place, and given our troops a fantastic light machine gun that would have been a strong rival to the BREN in that role -- there never had been anything wrong with the B.A.R.'s reliability or durability, it was just let down by some of the features it was lacking to make it a proper LMG, and all of those were shortcomings the FN Model D fixed.
'Herd you like war, so take this rifle so you can have a W.A.R. while you war'
lol
Indian Drums: Boom boom boomity boom!
Colonel Custer: Those are war drums.
Sergeant from Newcastle: The thieving beggars!
You might have to tell that one a second time to Stephen Fry...
.
Go Phil Jupitus.
Hey, it's got the shoulder thing that goes up.
Actually, this would be the shoulder thing that goes sideways, big difference.
+Mr. Noodle sideways, only tangentially lethal
+Cameron Wright Laterally functional lethality 😉
Different axis, equally lethal and scary
Mr. Noodle called a folding stock
W.A.R. , what is it good for?
Turns out it was pretty good, but too late. :p
lol
ugggh good god y'all thats a terrible joke I was gonna make it ;-)
Beat me to it by 4 months...so close.
ABSOLUTELY NOTHING…
You beat me to it
One thing I've picked up about American gun design is the tenacity of the frontiersman rifle DNA, particularly in Winchester and Ruger designs. Both the ubiquitous 10/22 and the Ruger Model. 44 are good examples of the typical features I'm referring to, looking like scaled down hammerless shotguns. It took the Stoner designs to drag manufacturers away from weapons that look like uprated rancher's guns.
*US Military* : This BAR thing is crap can someone replace it?
*Winchester* : Sure We'll make a better version
*US Military* : Oh Nevermind the War is over.
* Korean War Starts*
*US Military* : Oh crap we are still using this BAR thing...
*US Military* : This BAR thing is crap can someone replace it?
*Saco Defense* : Sure! This time we'll make it a belt fed. It'll be so cool and...
*US Military* : Oh Nevermind, the Korean War is over.
* Vietnam Starts*
*US Military* : Shit...
God Damn It USA
The us military had a habit of shelving projects between wars.
Just look at the sniper program that literally had to restart every time we went to war from WWI all the way to Vietnam
I like how it took us until the early stages of Vietnam to finally get rid of the BAR.
U.S. Military policy: Wait for war to start, collectively sh*t their pants, THEN start developing weapons. Develop best weapons right at the end of the war, shelve or scrap said best weapons, wait for next war to start. Rinse and repeat as necessary.
I'm going to be honest. This rifle looks like beefed up M1 Carbine.
Technically the M1 is a beefed down G30, while the WAR is an evolution on the G30.
lol beef-downed.
Be honest lol
I am adding beef-down to my collection of goofy lingo, lol
It basically is
Ask your average infantryman whether he prefers a WAR or a BAR, and see what he says. hahah
Which is better; A WAR in a BAR, or a BAR in a WAR?
+Ronald Rusyn
So...a giant barfight or a pub sitting in the middle of a battlefield?
Probably the second one...
X'llent! I buy that one! 😎🇫🇷😇
@Mike Gee true statement about the average infantryman bitching about everything. Though you really could say the average soldier.
I was a small arms and artillery repairer in the army.... they all piss and moan from privates all the way up to officers
It took me a second to get this but when I did it was hilarious
0:27 I love how if you look close enough, you can see Ian cringe a bit when he called the B.A.R the “bar”
"I could have been a contender" Is from On The Waterfront, said by the character Terry Malloy, played by Marlon Brando.
I was just typing this :)
"[...] instead of a bum, which is what I am. Let's face it. [...]" ;-)
oh good, I'm not the only one who noticed
STELLAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!
Oops, that was from "A Streetcar Named Desire". I got my Brando`s mixed up...
You should invite Steve1989 to one of you gun reviews, he can eat one of the rifles.
Nice hiss
Let's get this rifle unto a _tray_
Nice.
can you explain how the flash hider increases the rate of fire?, you really piqued my interest there but didnt explain it further. Keep up the great work Ian
It adds back pressure to the action, which makes the bolt travel slightly faster once unlocked.
thanks for sharing your knowledge mate, looking forward to more videos!!
the cody firearms museum is the best museum ive ever been to. It's worth going to wyoming just for it.
@@Strawberry92fs Would you rather be in Portland Oregon or maybe New York City?
@@djmech3871 I might go there when I retire lol
"A couple atom bombs; the war is over." Ahhhhh Gun Jesus, always making things so simple lol.
gg Winchester they won with that name
Better puns can be made with this than with even the BAR.
Three Japanese soldiers walk into a BAR. What punchline? They were fucking shot dead.
or they would have if the GI handn't died from exhaustion trying to carry the thing.
Colt, two decades later: "Beep beep, here comes the CAR!"
Those two peepsights - based on the different amount of concentric circles around each one, I'd think the top one would be for whatever range you'd adjusted the sights for, and the lower one for if the target was advancing and you didn't have time to readjust the sights. Possibly intended to deal with banzai charges.
MrAlumni72
Yes. It gives the shooter two range distances with one setting
The Johnson light machine guns also had the double peep sight. I do like the (for the time) non military sporting lines of the stock. Better handling and lighter weight is appreciated by both military and civilian minds
why is the rate of fire higher with the flash hider?
It puts a bit more backpressure into the action.
thanks, i found you answered someone else with a similar question, sorry for asking it again.
I love how that works lol, it’s like some IRL battlefield or call of duty weapon logic 😁
Repressed dakka.
This series has been incredible!
The writing was on the wall before the first ten were ever delivered and really even in January, after the Battle of the Bulge was over and it became obvious that Germany had no steam left in the tank and was purely fighting a defensive war at that point. The war in Europe ultimately ended in early May, a month prior to the delivery of those first ten. It was also fairly obvious that Japan was never going to get its second wind and it was just a numbers game from that point forward. (VJ day was August 15th, though the US had it on the calendar for decades as Sept 2 which was the day the surrender was actually signed.)
Another example where an interesting concept was shelved simply because there was no longer a demand for the implement. It was also pretty evident by this time that the nature of small arms was changing and this sort of rifle was not going to be suitable--at least in this type of configuration--in just a few years time. (Sub guns were all over the place by the end of the war and refined versions on the drawing board along with light machine guns such as the FN FAL in 1946 and the AK-47.)
Same thing happened with a plane: good idea but got shelved for not having a war to fight in
"Could have been a contender"...pretty sure it was Marlon Brando in a movie other than Rocky
*named and no, "On the Waterfront "
Excellent video, just like always... I had thought that the M-14 was an evolution of the Garand, but after watching your last few videos it looks like the M-14 might have evolved from the Winchester line of rifles you've been examining. Did Winchester have a hand in the M-14 project?
Am I the only gun nerd who's never, ever heard of this thing? like the M1 Carbine and BAR had a babyl And yeah, "WAR" is an amazing name for a gun, especially a military intended automatic rifle.
BECAUSE ITS A FORGOTTEN WEAPON
Fascinating series. Thank you very much for all your work.
Now that is a "forgotten" weapon! I really liked the videos leading up to this. If highschool history teachers did even 10% of making learning fun that you do the world would be a better place.
Excellent work, Ian--as always.
"Grab your Carabine and go to War!"
"Why? Do I have to carry both?"
"What?"
"I'm not going to carry both, no way!"
"Shut up and GO TO WAR!"
"OK."
"Wait, you forgot your Carabine!"
"I said NO WAY. Carabine or War, carrying both is to heavy."
"..."
"I coulda been a contenda" is from "On the Waterfront", not "Rocky".
The semi-auto AT rifle was literally the video I watched right before this one.
Missed it by that much.
Darn those eggheads with their ATOMS!
Two men walk into a bar, the third one ducks.
Three men walk into a WAR, they all died..
Fantastic video once again. Thanks Ian!
That gun looks pretty awesome! Just a shame it wasn't ready in time and it wasn't fast tracked at the start of Korea.
Very cool Ian.Keep them coming buddy.
very outstanding video. clean language. great job . thanks a lot. SC Navy vet
I d been to the Buffalo Bill Western Museum in Cody, Wyoming, several times. The firearms section is fascinating and very well maintained. I saw thr Glock exhibit a few years ago and saw an actual Dardick Tround revolver. Fabulous exhibit. The western life exhibits were good too. The Buffalo Bill and Annie Oakley displays were great.
really enjoy your videos never knew that winchester made these !
Ironic how it's called WAR but was never used in war...
W.A.R a perfect name for a military weapon
We love you Ian!
This should have been so much more implemented during conflict. The design, the implementation. The whole package. Right down to the mag release on the trigger guard. Really nice. Thanks, Ian! I think some modern designers might even learn something from this if they try it out over a few months or so. Maybe??!
Looks like a fastener on the front face of the handguard, right between the detents to stow the extended bipod legs. I would start there in an effort to disassemble this rifle.
But other than that, another amazing vijeo from Gun Jesus!
Keep 'em coming M'Lord!
Five-year-old comment . . . but I think you are on to something. Looks like some sort of spring-loaded plunger that has no logical explanation for being there. I have a Winchester model 100. To get the action and barrel out of the stock, you remove the front sling swivel screw. Then you pull back on the charging handle somewhere about 3/4 of the way. That allows you to tilt the barrel up. The back is just stuck into a recess in another piece of metal that is attached into the stock with some screws. So, I'm thinking this thing is similar, except instead of taking a screw out of the fore end, you are just pushing in on the plunger.
Watching this in early 2020... well, rather watching your whole series of Winchester WW2 rifle series, I am struck with the question: how the shit did the M14 A: exist, and 2: take over a decade to create?
@Johnny Dominguez THE m14, yes. The rifle in this video is 90% of an M14 in 1945, and functional enough to use in combat at that time.
Even into 1945 Winchester had problems coming up with functional Garands to complete their contract. What were they thinking that they could provide the military a new full-auto rifle from scratch? It most probably would have been another WRA delivery disaster past the prototype stage.
Never knew that this rifle existed. One big M1 Carbine!! :-)
So three germans walk into a war
They lost
Reichsmarschall Hermann Wilhelm Göring:
One German, a fine man. Two Germans, a Party. Three Germans, a war.
Also from Göring:
One Englishman, an idiot. Two Englishmen, a club. Three Englishmen, an Empire.
3 Germans walk into a BAR.
The didn't walk away.
Jeffrey Epstein didn't kill himself
@@scottwest5704 but but that's not what they said on TV news.
Ugh! I wish they made some sort of replica of these I could buy. LOVE the design!
Very slick looking rifles. I wonder how much geeking out the Winchester people did when they realized that they had the fortune of having the coolest acronym possible.
I theorize the takedown from the stock has something to do with the 1. Front sling swivel. 2. That button below the barrel or 3. Underneath the metal top barrel plate.
Ian, would that button/stud at the front/center under the barrel have anything to do with disassembly?
Nope, tried that.
The Military: The BAR is too heavy.
Also the Military: Can you make your BAR replacement heavier?!?!?
What a great piece of kit, like you said, it's a good thing WWII ended but I bet the guys who went to Korea would have been glad if the Army had spent a little more and replaced those old, heavy BAR's with something handier. Thanks Ian, this was very informative, bit of a wonder Winchester didn't revive this in a 308, I could see it selling as a SAW to those poorer, NATO allied, Countries in the early 60's.
It's a strange thing how timing impacts firearms so much. If ideas like this or something like the FN 49 came around just a hair earlier they could have been immensely successful (yes, the FN was adopted by some but had a very brief service life)
That muzzle break looks like the thing they used to put in middle of pizza to keep the box from sticking in the cheese.
So we have these currently:
BAR - Browning Automatic Rifle
WAR - Winchester Automatic Rifle
We kinda got these:
Colt Automatic Rifle - Colt Monitor
Johnson Automatic Rifle - Johnson LMG
Kalashnikov Automatic Rifle - AK Series
Now we just need:
Glock Automatic Rifle
Henry Automatic Rifle
Remington Automatic Rifle
You know, I remember in a news article about the decision to reject the rifle, that when asked to explain why, A spokesman for the defense department simply shrugged and said:
“W.A.R., what is it even good for?”
:)
Also does it bother anyone else that war and bar don't rhyme lol
it bugs me now that you mentioned it... WHY
James Kerr Well, barbarian is pronounced bar bear Ian even though the spelling is the same. Expecting consistency from English is asking for a lot.Island should actually be iland except the academics got their derivation wrong.Each word has its own idiosyncratic history .
If you're from the south they do. Or australia.
It does now, dick. 😆
As the man in the video game says, "W.A.R., W.A.R. never changes."
Beautiful gun. I could totally this being used as Squad support gun or as a DMR (if it has a fire selector) in ww2 and korea era.
"You know the gun is rare when Ian has to take out the white gloves" (c)
This gun looks like it had a loudener instead of a silencer on the end :v
Homeopathic Fossil-Fuels you mean suppressor right? a "silencer" doesn't exist as you can't completely silence a gun
Imperator Phil sorry but silencer is a term that actually was not only misunderstood,it is completely inaccurate. As a firearm is really never going to be truly silent. The term originally from movies and used not only by maxim, it also was used by political hacks to make them a nfa regulated item.
Where's the attachment for shooting down police helicopters, which I won't be needing... yet?
It's a Simpson's joke
Homeopathic Fossil-Fuels I get your joke, however I would like to tell you what that actually is. It is a flash hider.
to bad they didn't make a ton of these. they would've been cool AF. and I really like alot of things about it
The chad W.A.R. vs the virgin B.A.R.
New one for me....it looks good!
Beautiful looking weapons.
Nice toy!! Thanks for sharing !!
Have you ever done a video on weapons modifications during WWII? Or were there a lot of modifications done by troops in the field?
It’s still really cool. Just when you think you’ve seen it all. It’s a damn good looking rifle
W.A.R., W.A.R. never changes
That's a real shame. I would love to have been able to purchase one of these for over seas.
Would an W.A.R operator be called a "WARrior?"
they are gorgeous!!
there isn't anything that looks better than that old winchester steel..
Really informative
Winchester: Hey we've got a thing here asking for a replacement for the BAR
Design team: Let's make a BAR but wooden.
Winchester: Y'know they've been using this thing as an LMG right? Maybe we should include larger than just 20rnd mags.
Design team: Naaaaah, it'll be fiiiine, dw about it!
That is an AWESOME rifle!!! Question: doesn't the M14 and later the AC556 / Mini14 make use of that same tappet gas system? Granted, the M14 retained the longer op rod like its elder brother, but with the short stroke piston, correct?
Why didn't a rifle design like the Ljungman ever make it in the U.S.? It seems like the perfect solution to what the WWII era military was looking for. Plus it had the internal box mag/detachable box mag.
im glad this rifle has a barrel shroud. you know the thing that goes up.
The lower aperture on the elevated rear site is for low light conditions.
Another one I'd like to shoot! Thanks Ian
I'd love to have one of those to check out but it wouldnt need to go full auto also love to have a 30 cal M1 carbine also loved the one my dad gave my mom until it got stolen it was her plinker but well let's just say it turned up in a scrap heap from someone's house fire.
At the end you are mentioning your Patroon account so ... you get to handle rare and cool firearms, and on top of that you actually receive money ! Aw man ! I want in on this.
And, despite drooling with envy, I agree that your excellent videos are worth every dollar you get.
It never changes...
The Winchester collection used to be down the hill from me, like there blocks away. If you are traveling with people who are not into guns, get new travel companions. Not that I have anything against art, I am a member of The Met and MoMA.
I have seen a pic on Google of the "Huot Automatic Rifle" from your website. Have you done a video about it on UA-cam? Or if not, would it be possible? Seems like a very interesting weapon. Thanks.
The flash hider reminds me of those dog no-scratch neck cones.
Did the WAR get any consideration as a rival offering to the FN49? I would be intrigued to see how one of these built from the ground up as 308 NATO would have fared in testing alongside the M14 and FN FAL.
Wouldn't've mattered; the Army'd still've rigged the tests so that the M14 won.
fantastic thank you!
I swear the first W.A.R. (the dark brown one) could totally be a .50cal sniper, ATR, or AMR in a alternate reality 1930s-1940s videogame, and the name would be perfect for one too...even if it wouldn't be an automatic rifle
Maybe the Winchester Assassin's Rifle?
I donno, I'm just coming up with ideas for a game now that I'll never make but wish would happen @.@
Winchester autoloading rifle
The museum is awesome
14:17 right in the feels
US DOD to Winchester in August 1945:
"Sorry. Looks like this WAR is over!"
It looks like an M1carbine had a love child with a Japanese type 99 Lmg
"I coulda been a contender!" Is one if the most famous movie quotes of all time, dude.
It's not from Rocky.
Marlon Brando. On the Waterfront. 8 Academy Awards.
Ring any bells?
"You was my brother, Charley,” he says. “You shoulda looked out for me a little bit. You shoulda taken care of me, just a little bit, so I wouldn't have to take them dives for the short-end money...I coulda had class. *I coulda been a contender*. I coulda been somebody, instead of a bum, which is what I am.”
started watching cause cool guns now I enjoy the history to the guns more
Those are beautiful guns.
Are you going to do a video on the M1 carbine. It's far from a forgotten weapon, but I think it would be a good place to finish this story.
It really brings war to the war
Would you please make history videos of the FN Minimi and IWI Negev?