I think that there is a visible progress. You can be proud of it. A bike-instructor told us in one video: The most common mistake in improving your bike-skills is the absence of permanent practice. You do it right. I do it wrong by watching this video instead of getting on my bike.
Finally an honest review about the manual machine from someone who is actually trying to learn manuals and not an expert in manuals who checked it out. My experience with the manual machine was similar.
Without reviewing video tutorials on the body mechanics, just hopping in a manual machine wouldnt be expected to make significant diffenece in the learning curve. Pretty simple really. Dissappointment in the machine stems from lack of perspective or unrealistic expectations that arise from not having a more complete approach to learning and practicing.
If I had seen your video before, wouldn't even bother to buy me a manual machine. Cause I'm real life is totally different feel like you described! Thanks for your great input!
manual machine may help you mastering pull up movement, but catching a balance point or mastering manual within a week is IMPOSSIBLE. as a manual master I would say if you are beginner, manual may need about 6-12 month to learn, or if you have some experience catching and feeling balance point may need up to 2-5 month
I've heard the manual machine is not good for getting a feel for the pull up since bike isn't rolling and it's just better for the balancing part. I've never used one and I can't manual so it's just heresy. Def want to try one though.
@@stolencoats63 it has helped me a lot. Problem on a bmx is that i come off the back so quickly i barely get a chance for the feel of it. The manual machine lets you mess around on one wheel longer. Its by no means a replication of an actual manual, but it definitely has its uses
I built a manual trainer a week ago and it help me learn how to balance my mountain bike. However, it did not teach me how to manual on street even after 8 days of practicing manual on street. I think I know my issue now. I am not lowering my butt close to the rear wheel. I'll try that later first in my manual then tomorrow on the street. Great video!
At the end of the video you're getting the front up and hitting the balance point and staying there for a couple seconds. From there, it's just fine tuning. I think you made great progress! Nice video, I'm inspired!
In my opinion for all those tricks winter is the best time. Ground fairly soft and won't damage your skin if you fall and slide. Plus more clothes on you. Hitting any bare part of your body on that gravel will leave scars for years. As a bonus, on snow/ice you literally every minute improve your balance skills.
Great video - I was thinking about building a manual trainer for myself. But I think I will be better off just practicing in the real world. What I saw in another video about manuals - they recommend to keep the arms extended to not pull unevenly. This should avoid some of the side to side issues. Hope that I'll remember to try that once I run into the same issue XD
Try to get your upper body almost perpendicular to ground, if your upper body angle parallels the the ground it forces the front tire back to the ground
I think what these should really be called is a balance point trainer; for manuals, rear wheel hops, wheelies, or whatever. Your property looks nice. Next video I want to see the trials course you build with that bobcat.
Thanks for the video, I can't manual at all and this has made me realise that the "machine" isn't replicating any movement forward and will probably instill a false sense of competency/security. Reminds me of when I kayaked and how many fellow paddlers could roll brilliantly in a swimming pool but IRL it always failed, murky water, no goggles, being spun around in a current etc.... One big (not making excuses here)obstacle I think to learning this is the length of chainstay on the bike as this will affect how far back over the axle you can get to balance things out.... probably get a bike with as short chainstays as possible to learn on... (so I can forget even trying with my KTM E-MTB lol, they're 492mm never mind the weight of the motor and battery ha ha, will try on my 26" hardtail)
How I learned being in my 50s...was lean the back wheel against a wall. And focused on putting myself behind the seat, almost touching the back wheel. Love your idea with a wooden machine. Like to know how to make one.
I snapped the rear der. too! Never ever remove the chain! And well, I think the machine is not a way to learn manual. Maybe it is OK for the first steps. Great video!
Im guessing you didnt try wheelies first as that helps with balance point and back braking. I also think more speed would make it easier...pump tracks are great for this...
Day 3! I am now on Day 333 and still trying!!! I discovered that the MM by itself was not enough to teach me to manual, I can now manual on the MM (for up to 1 min) but not IRL. Lately however I have been making more progress by using the MM in conjunction with learning on the road (as per the approach in the video). I an perplexed that the MM doesn't translate directly to real use, I guess there is the lateral element, but there seems to be something else as well, but I can't fathom what it is!
Butt down and back + feet thrust lower bike forward at the same time, thats why it feels different on the machine, because you're missing the second component.
I would have kept the front wheel tied on. I'm guessing the primary purpose of the device is to get a feel for the manual position in space and time. Not to master the manual itself. Popping into and learning how far you need to get your bum over the wheel. If you'd kept your wheel tied on, this may have helped a lot. However your manual was much better after and as others have mentioned, go faster! Be interested to see how you're getting on with it now...
Thank you for taking the time to share this with us, I have been looking into a store bought manual trainer, bike stand combo, My first question is how ofter does someone actually use this tool and would it really be the best thing in the toolbox at the price point, because it is very expensive for the combo. I know the cost of a good park stand, it well under 100 dollars less than the one I am looking at which all be it is a combo deal, but I did have similar concerns with the possibility of bending and or breaking a wheel, and as you pointed out, breaking off the detailer had not been something I had thought about either, I am a very skilled wood worker and I know that building a manual trainer in my wood shop would obviously be much cheaper, so I was trying to find a video on how often someone who has bought one actually uses it for either a work out, and or practice session during the winter etc. The company does have a UA-cam channel , but they really dont have too many videos for a 4 year old project and the handful of folks who have posted videos on it, basically are not much more than a box opening and introduction,. After watching your video, I think you have helped me answer this question I have been having on expense of product versus reward and how often it will be used after a few failures with it. Thank you so much and keep up the great work young lady. Dale, PS, I subbed you as well, I hope it helps, sub number 593
In some cases it helps, my daughter is not strong enough to pull and has to do everything with body positioning. The machine helps her feel how far back she has to go, and that looping out is not that scary.
Alot of video out shows when you are building the manual machine to be careful the derailer make sure there is enough space and also point of the manual machine is to get the movement correct to get it to life more than the balance etc.
I've just started doing the manual and it's harder than it looks, being heavy helps counter the balance and if you're slim, it's even harder.... n yes, my shoulder was aching from the 1st day
Very helpful. Trying myself to learn how to manual, and I was considering buying a machine, but your vid confirms it's not that useful. My manuals look a a lot like yours at the moment. But I find it easier to practice on a smaller bike : with a 24 incher (my daughter's, lol) I'm making progress faster. I think the loop out is easier and less scary with a smaller bike.
Shorter stem. Forget about the break. Get a back pack and stuff it with something soft. More speed=More balance. Still have to run if u loop out so...running speed would be best :D Also push with the legs more. On bigger bikes I imagine pushing with the legs would be unavoidable.
Im also learning and i suggest to find a slope After some trying (i tried for some moths one in a while and i did almost all the learning in the last couple of weeks) i can do like 10m
É muito engraçado ver esse pessoal que não sabe empinar uma bike com esses aparatos para tentar aprender kkkk, uma dica de quem sabe empinar, o segredo é ir tentando na bruta mesmo, vc vai se acostumando e vai entendendo o tempo do freio e do peso da bike, é só treinar muitas vezes sem parar que uma hora você aprende.
@@alpcycles yes, chain must have gotten snagged on the derailleur cage as you moved up. Since the cassette is only freewheeling in one direction the cage broke.. A freak accident indeed.
Your L-movement was decent on the trainer, but non-existent IRL. Yes to keeping the arms pretty much extended. But not your legs, you extend them fully, then you limit your correction to only moving your weight back forward, but not further back. Go on a slightly sloping hill and then practice practice practice
I dont know why people dont just get outside and learn manuals rolling along the proper way,as soon as you got a feel for it they will come.you dont need a manual machine to get the feel for it,you can learn manuals in the same time by doing them properly,plus you dont need to make a manual machine or break any derraliers (not sure thats how there spelled lol)....people stop making these and get out there and learn the old way
i just built one, curious if itll help. you have 27.5 it looks? same as me. hard, cos you have to get your weight back more. easiest to learn on a bmx I think, with 20 wheels. many trials bikes are like that too. anywho, awesome job
Thank you! Yes, I was also worried about damaging the wheel. That's the reason I didn't use my full suspension in the machine. I just stopped using the machine once I broke my rear derailleur.
The way to combat this (the possibility of the machine damaging the rear wheel) is simply not to include the lateral brace that prevents side to side motion. I have now built and used 2 (!) manual machines, neither with a lateral brace, it simply isn't needed. My base blank is 6 inches wide and this is wide enough for stability. And if you do wobble sideways then your rear wheel is less likely to be damged.
The machine is for muscle memory. I know I was sore as hell my first two. I also noticed your brace on your machine is way to wide which is way to wide. Your not able to practice your side to side control. I think your damage to your bike was self inflicted and not knowing how to use the machine . Dont blame it on the machine. I've been using the machine for about a month and I went from not being able to a manual. To doing a manual . Yes there still room for improvements with my manuals but the machine did wonders.
There are no words to express my gratitude for this video. You have saved me time, money, and possibly a derailleur. Thank you.
I think that there is a visible progress. You can be proud of it. A bike-instructor told us in one video: The most common mistake in improving your bike-skills is the absence of permanent practice. You do it right. I do it wrong by watching this video instead of getting on my bike.
Hahahaha! Yes, watching others practice their manuals does not help you become better at manuals. Keep practicing!
This is such a helpful video. As someone in their 50s trying to learn, I'm encouraged to see your improvement. Great job!
Finally an honest review about the manual machine from someone who is actually trying to learn manuals and not an expert in manuals who checked it out. My experience with the manual machine was similar.
Thank you!
yeah I like your video also. it is real. im not going to use a manual machine to learn.
@@minidentalimplanttv861 Thank you! Yes, just practice in real life- no machine needed
Without reviewing video tutorials on the body mechanics, just hopping in a manual machine wouldnt be expected to make significant diffenece in the learning curve. Pretty simple really. Dissappointment in the machine stems from lack of perspective or unrealistic expectations that arise from not having a more complete approach to learning and practicing.
If I had seen your video before, wouldn't even bother to buy me a manual machine. Cause I'm real life is totally different feel like you described! Thanks for your great input!
I was going to buy the materials to make a machine machine. But after watching this video, I’ll skip that and continue practicing IRL too. Thank you.
You're welcome!
manual machine may help you mastering pull up movement, but catching a balance point or mastering manual within a week is IMPOSSIBLE.
as a manual master I would say if you are beginner, manual may need about 6-12 month to learn, or if you have some experience catching and feeling balance point may need up to 2-5 month
Great feedback! Yes, focused practice and patience.
Still trying after 10years 🤣 although it's looking hopeful this year 🤞
I've heard the manual machine is not good for getting a feel for the pull up since bike isn't rolling and it's just better for the balancing part. I've never used one and I can't manual so it's just heresy. Def want to try one though.
@@stolencoats63 it has helped me a lot. Problem on a bmx is that i come off the back so quickly i barely get a chance for the feel of it. The manual machine lets you mess around on one wheel longer. Its by no means a replication of an actual manual, but it definitely has its uses
@@CB19087 thanks! Prob gonna try one out. Don't think it can hurt.
It breaks my heart when i see the derailure. But im glad you made a fast progress.
Thank you. Yes, RIP rear der
I built a manual trainer a week ago and it help me learn how to balance my mountain bike. However, it did not teach me how to manual on street even after 8 days of practicing manual on street. I think I know my issue now. I am not lowering my butt close to the rear wheel. I'll try that later first in my manual then tomorrow on the street. Great video!
I'm glad you like the video! Keep practicing on the street with your butt low. You'll get it!
@@alpcycles Will do. :)
At the end of the video you're getting the front up and hitting the balance point and staying there for a couple seconds. From there, it's just fine tuning. I think you made great progress! Nice video, I'm inspired!
Thank you!
In my opinion for all those tricks winter is the best time. Ground fairly soft and won't damage your skin if you fall and slide. Plus more clothes on you. Hitting any bare part of your body on that gravel will leave scars for years. As a bonus, on snow/ice you literally every minute improve your balance skills.
Great video - I was thinking about building a manual trainer for myself. But I think I will be better off just practicing in the real world. What I saw in another video about manuals - they recommend to keep the arms extended to not pull unevenly. This should avoid some of the side to side issues. Hope that I'll remember to try that once I run into the same issue XD
Thanks for the comment! Yes, I agree-- learn to manual IRL without the machine.
We made another Manual video- in real life! Check it out- ua-cam.com/video/aa5cBB5w7Rc/v-deo.html
Try to get your upper body almost perpendicular to ground, if your upper body angle parallels the the ground it forces the front tire back to the ground
That's a great tip! Thank you
I think what these should really be called is a balance point trainer; for manuals, rear wheel hops, wheelies, or whatever. Your property looks nice. Next video I want to see the trials course you build with that bobcat.
We want to build a pump track with the bobcat!
Thanks for the video, I can't manual at all and this has made me realise that the "machine" isn't replicating any movement forward and will probably instill a false sense of competency/security. Reminds me of when I kayaked and how many fellow paddlers could roll brilliantly in a swimming pool but IRL it always failed, murky water, no goggles, being spun around in a current etc....
One big (not making excuses here)obstacle I think to learning this is the length of chainstay on the bike as this will affect how far back over the axle you can get to balance things out.... probably get a bike with as short chainstays as possible to learn on... (so I can forget even trying with my KTM E-MTB lol, they're 492mm never mind the weight of the motor and battery ha ha, will try on my 26" hardtail)
How I learned being in my 50s...was lean the back wheel against a wall. And focused on putting myself behind the seat, almost touching the back wheel. Love your idea with a wooden machine. Like to know how to make one.
I didn't like the wooden machine. It broke my bike. Practicing in real life is much better
I snapped the rear der. too! Never ever remove the chain! And well, I think the machine is not a way to learn manual. Maybe it is OK for the first steps. Great video!
Thank you and bummer on your rear der too!
We made another Manual video- in real life! Check it out- ua-cam.com/video/aa5cBB5w7Rc/v-deo.html
Im guessing you didnt try wheelies first as that helps with balance point and back braking. I also think more speed would make it easier...pump tracks are great for this...
You are correct! No wheelies first and yes, more speed is helpful. Thanks!
Day 3! I am now on Day 333 and still trying!!! I discovered that the MM by itself was not enough to teach me to manual, I can now manual on the MM (for up to 1 min) but not IRL. Lately however I have been making more progress by using the MM in conjunction with learning on the road (as per the approach in the video). I an perplexed that the MM doesn't translate directly to real use, I guess there is the lateral element, but there seems to be something else as well, but I can't fathom what it is!
Keep practicing IRL!
We made another Manual video- in real life! Check it out- ua-cam.com/video/aa5cBB5w7Rc/v-deo.html
Speed. You have to be moving at a good speed to manual. The slower you go the harder and shorter your manuals will be.
Butt down and back + feet thrust lower bike forward at the same time, thats why it feels different on the machine, because you're missing the second component.
I would have kept the front wheel tied on. I'm guessing the primary purpose of the device is to get a feel for the manual position in space and time. Not to master the manual itself. Popping into and learning how far you need to get your bum over the wheel. If you'd kept your wheel tied on, this may have helped a lot. However your manual was much better after and as others have mentioned, go faster! Be interested to see how you're getting on with it now...
Thank you for taking the time to share this with us, I have been looking into a store bought manual trainer, bike stand combo, My first question is how ofter does someone actually use this tool and would it really be the best thing in the toolbox at the price point, because it is very expensive for the combo. I know the cost of a good park stand, it well under 100 dollars less than the one I am looking at which all be it is a combo deal, but I did have similar concerns with the possibility of bending and or breaking a wheel, and as you pointed out, breaking off the detailer had not been something I had thought about either, I am a very skilled wood worker and I know that building a manual trainer in my wood shop would obviously be much cheaper, so I was trying to find a video on how often someone who has bought one actually uses it for either a work out, and or practice session during the winter etc. The company does have a UA-cam channel , but they really dont have too many videos for a 4 year old project and the handful of folks who have posted videos on it, basically are not much more than a box opening and introduction,. After watching your video, I think you have helped me answer this question I have been having on expense of product versus reward and how often it will be used after a few failures with it. Thank you so much and keep up the great work young lady.
Dale,
PS, I subbed you as well, I hope it helps, sub number 593
if you're having trouble steering, its because you're using too much arms. the method is all in the legs :) Keep your elbows bent and loose.
Great tip! Thanks
I love how you showed the damage - - thanks for this video - - :-)
You're welcome! That was an expensive break...
Excellent video. The take away is practice - there are very few short cuts to developing skills in sport.
I’m working on this right now, also worried about my derailer... day 2 starts today!! Thankyou for the video!!
You're welcome! Happy practicing and make sure to practice IRL as well. That's the most important
@@alpcycles yep the manual machine broke my derailleur off! going to continue practicing without using the machine tho still!
@@mtbridersanonymous9152 Oh NO!! Big bummer. IRL is better anyway. Good luck getting things fixed on your bike.
You are my new super hero.
Thank you!
Thanx for that real life explaintion!! Helped me out alot. New to the MTB life
Great! You're welcome
In some cases it helps, my daughter is not strong enough to pull and has to do everything with body positioning. The machine helps her feel how far back she has to go, and that looping out is not that scary.
Great that you and your daughter have had success with it
We made another Manual video- in real life! Check it out- ua-cam.com/video/aa5cBB5w7Rc/v-deo.html
You cannot do manuals until you learn to loop out. Also this high seat position and humped bike geometry are really hard for manuals.
I agree about needing to learn to loop out. At the time of making this video, I didn't know that.
Alot of video out shows when you are building the manual machine to be careful the derailer make sure there is enough space and also point of the manual machine is to get the movement correct to get it to life more than the balance etc.
I would now agree!
I've just started doing the manual and it's harder than it looks, being heavy helps counter the balance and if you're slim, it's even harder.... n yes, my shoulder was aching from the 1st day
Thanks for the comments! Yes, the soreness is real!
We made another Manual video- in real life! Check it out- ua-cam.com/video/aa5cBB5w7Rc/v-deo.html
Very helpful. Trying myself to learn how to manual, and I was considering buying a machine, but your vid confirms it's not that useful. My manuals look a a lot like yours at the moment. But I find it easier to practice on a smaller bike : with a 24 incher (my daughter's, lol) I'm making progress faster. I think the loop out is easier and less scary with a smaller bike.
I agree, I am better at manualing on my full suspension vs my hard tail. Either the suspension helps or the geometry
Great shoutout to Mikaela Shiffrin, one of my new heroes! Looked like great progress still from the first to last IRL attempts.
Thank you! Yes, Mikaela is an amazing athlete.
Shorter stem. Forget about the break. Get a back pack and stuff it with something soft. More speed=More balance. Still have to run if u loop out so...running speed would be best :D Also push with the legs more. On bigger bikes I imagine pushing with the legs would be unavoidable.
Great tips! Thank you!
You are exactly right with more speed! We made another Manual video- in real life! Check it out- ua-cam.com/video/aa5cBB5w7Rc/v-deo.html
Are you a manual master? Tell us how in the comments.
You got much better
Thank you! The daily practice was really the best way to do it.
I've gotten even better! We made another Manual video- in real life! Check it out- ua-cam.com/video/aa5cBB5w7Rc/v-deo.html
Very helpful glad to know pain in shoulders legs and hands is normal tried it yesterday can hardly move today
Haha! Yes! You have to be careful about how much time you spend practicing. You'll pay the price in soreness after
Im also learning and i suggest to find a slope
After some trying (i tried for some moths one in a while and i did almost all the learning in the last couple of weeks) i can do like 10m
É muito engraçado ver esse pessoal que não sabe empinar uma bike com esses aparatos para tentar aprender kkkk, uma dica de quem sabe empinar, o segredo é ir tentando na bruta mesmo, vc vai se acostumando e vai entendendo o tempo do freio e do peso da bike, é só treinar muitas vezes sem parar que uma hora você aprende.
Amo tu honestidad.
Did you leave the chain on the cassette when you broke the derailleur? That might have caused the mishap...
The chain was on the cassette but off the ring up front.
@@alpcycles yes, chain must have gotten snagged on the derailleur cage as you moved up. Since the cassette is only freewheeling in one direction the cage broke.. A freak accident indeed.
Awesome vídeo. 💪
More speed - more fear - more stability. Just try to increase speed a little bit or practice on slight slope.
Thank you! Great advice
You're exactly right! We made another Manual video- in real life! Check it out- ua-cam.com/video/aa5cBB5w7Rc/v-deo.html
Nice for learning gaiss.. Cheers
Thanks!
Thank you for this video. !!!
How much time each day would you spend practicing?
10-30min a day. Not a lot, but a little bit each day helps a lot
Your L-movement was decent on the trainer, but non-existent IRL. Yes to keeping the arms pretty much extended.
But not your legs, you extend them fully, then you limit your correction to only moving your weight back forward, but not further back.
Go on a slightly sloping hill and then practice practice practice
Great feedback!
We made another Manual video- in real life! Check it out- ua-cam.com/video/aa5cBB5w7Rc/v-deo.html
I dont know why people dont just get outside and learn manuals rolling along the proper way,as soon as you got a feel for it they will come.you dont need a manual machine to get the feel for it,you can learn manuals in the same time by doing them properly,plus you dont need to make a manual machine or break any derraliers (not sure thats how there spelled lol)....people stop making these and get out there and learn the old way
I agree 100%!
Ok thabks
i just built one, curious if itll help. you have 27.5 it looks? same as me. hard, cos you have to get your weight back more. easiest to learn on a bmx I think, with 20 wheels. many trials bikes are like that too. anywho, awesome job
I have 29s. Keep practicing!
I'd be worried of damaging the wheel whilst in the machine, does it feel like it would? Also great progress, and persistence!
Thank you! Yes, I was also worried about damaging the wheel. That's the reason I didn't use my full suspension in the machine. I just stopped using the machine once I broke my rear derailleur.
The way to combat this (the possibility of the machine damaging the rear wheel) is simply not to include the lateral brace that prevents side to side motion. I have now built and used 2 (!) manual machines, neither with a lateral brace, it simply isn't needed. My base blank is 6 inches wide and this is wide enough for stability. And if you do wobble sideways then your rear wheel is less likely to be damged.
I have been riding for years and I still suck at the manual given in my younger years the manual wasn’t invented yet. 😜
It's never too late to learn!
Engineer here. Please don´t call it a machine. It has no moving parts.
I would call it a practise stand.
Good work nonetheless!
Such a great point! HAHA! I totally agree
mate does it matter?
@@michaelphillipss do words meanings matter?
How are the manuals getting along?
If you are relaxed through the elbow you may find the side to side balance easier ;-)
Making good progress! I've also found relaxing through the knees helps as well. Maybe I should make a follow up video?
@@alpcycles Absolutely!
We made another Manual video- in real life! Check it out- ua-cam.com/video/aa5cBB5w7Rc/v-deo.html
wheelie forever!))
Yes!
I wouldn't practice that with clipless pedals.
Whats the difference between a manual and a wheelie?
A manual is a coasting front wheel lift. A wheelie is a pedaling front wheel lift.
Check out our new IRL video- ua-cam.com/video/aa5cBB5w7Rc/v-deo.html
One week huh? Wow.
Focused practice goes a long way
looks like you are or will be bending your rear rim flexing in the machine. True?
Warning: warm up before trying the manual trainer. I strained my hammie on it.
Agreed! My hamstrings were really sore
The machine is for muscle memory. I know I was sore as hell my first two. I also noticed your brace on your machine is way to wide which is way to wide. Your not able to practice your side to side control. I think your damage to your bike was self inflicted and not knowing how to use the machine . Dont blame it on the machine. I've been using the machine for about a month and I went from not being able to a manual. To doing a manual . Yes there still room for improvements with my manuals but the machine did wonders.
Congrats on being able to manual! I'm glad the machine helped you
🇧🇷🇧🇷🇧🇷🤙👍
How is this a machine? There are no moving parts.
Ha! That's a very good point. No idea why it's called a machine
8 months later and now I'm thinking about buying one from offer up.
would this bend your wheel?
I was definitely worried that it would. But, before my wheel could get bent, I broke my rear derailleur...
@@alpcycles what would you recommend I do to keep the wheel from getting bent
@@remingtonclark5404 I recommend not using this type of machine. Practice in real life for better results.
You’re going too slow and you should try manuals on a slight downhill, not up hill.
I totally agree! With more practice, I learned this as well
I am NOT sure I'd call this device a MACHINE, because it isn't a machine.
Haha! Good point!
go faster
I agree! That'll help with balance
I agree! That is something I have since learned