The reversible barrel Bren Machine Gun? With firearms and weapon expert, Jonathan Ferguson
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- Опубліковано 22 лис 2024
- In an attempt to minimise barrel wear, Britain looked at the possibility of a reversible Bren barrel. Jonathan examines whether this was feasible and why you haven't heard more about this novel concept?
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Australian Army practice with the Bren was a 3 man team, No.1 was the gunner, 6 magazines, No.2 was the loader when stationary, 6 magazines, possibly more if available, No.3 was a Lance Corporal commanding the team, who carried the spare barrel, the spares kit (extra extractors, firing pin, universal tool and the special double length pull through with stainless steel 'gauze' to strip out the metallic fouling from full automatic firing). The other members of the squad carried extra magazines and were supposed to swap them for empties with No.2 during breaks in the action (or just toss them to the Bren team if still in action) Barrel, butt, body, bipod! The order for field stripping the Bren. I still have the scar.
That was generally British and Canadian practice too. Though the British manual states the spare parts wallet should remain with the gun i.e. carried by whoever was No.1. No.2 usually carried additoonal magazines, the holdall and spare barrel, with the L/Cpl. Bren group commander notionally carrying additional magazines and a machete for clearing fields of fire. Equally, all members of the section other than section commander were to carry additional magazines, though this seems to have varied in practice.
I used to have the 303 spares kit carrier which held the spare barrel, spares box, cleaning kit etc. Surplus ones were disposed of in the 1970's but many were retained but the khaki dyed jungle green for the L4A4 7.62 issue with changed Spares, cleaning kit and spare barrel.
I used the 303 bren and cleaning kit in the Australian Army cadets in the mid 70's and the L4A4 in army service in the 80's.
@@sampointau it’s a pity that government high schools slowly got rid of their cadet corps as teachers with military or national service experience were slowly retired off, leaving only private schools to offer cadet service to high schoolers
The sidewinder SMG had a reversible barrel as well with two different chambers for two different cartridges - 9mm and.380
You've overlooked its true killer advantage:
fit a Bren at each end and you'll never run out of bullets!
Literally making BREN kiss. You love to see it. 😊
I was using a Bren up until 92 in Germany, my pre deployment training for Op Granby we used the Bren, but deployed with LSW, a accurate weapon as I remember.
Thanks Jonathan and team. That was fascinating. Obviously a clever idea to try but perhaps too clever by half.
If I'm not mistaken, wear at the chamber throat can also adversely effect accuracy, so this design might have been an attempt to reduce throat wear by having two throats to share out the wear.
True, but I doubt it ever would have worked out since the throat of one orientation is the crown of the other orientation.
@@desertdude540 indeed, a clever idea but too clever by half. But sometimes ideas work in practice even if they sound a bit daft to start with. Or their testing or driven by mad inventors who won't take no for an answer.
It works with artillery barrels because they aren’t putting hundreds of rounds down range in the space of seconds. If you’ve regularly used any MG, you’d know the barrel heats ups pretty quick. The WHOLE barrel. The other end is just as fked with carbon and gets just as hot as the end closer to the receiver. It wouldn’t have affected accuracy or reduced any wear
There are pics of the L4 BREN in both ground role and on Mk 1 Ferrets in Kuwait/Iraq c. 1990/1991. Minimi as a general issue weapon as the L110A1 came in at least a decade later.
"So far so Bren." Brilliant.
Question, BREN was made under license from a Czech firm and assuming the same policy was in effect as WWI (see Vickers Krupp fuse) what happened with license fees ?
Does the Royal Armoury have an example of the front assault grip for the Bren? They turned up in service in Borneo IIRC. I think they attach to the front tripod eye.
The reversible bren barrel: or how I learned to stop worrying and just carry an extra barrel with the darn thing
Or other title
The reversible Bren barrel, or how I got mesothelioma from asbestos gloves because wow is that thing hot
Got Dr strangelove on the mind today clearly
*Strangeglove 😉
I can see the logic behind it, I can also see why, they never bothered seriously chasing the reversible barrel in the end. The tooling would already be set up for standard barrels which could be produced en mass. It would also be far faster to just change out a barrel than reverse one. So in action you would most likely need a spare anyway.
I guess if you have two you can reverse the barrel after quickswapping it out.
it would be difficult to do the change over with a hot barrel. perhaps done as part of regular maintenance schedule but not under fire. also no carry handle
so looking forward to seeing this live
That barrel nut latching mechanism makes a very satisfying sound.
Fantastic thanks for showing 👍
Interesting idea Jonathan, I had first wondered if it were a different chambering at each end, like .303 British and Russian 7.62X54R at the other end. I know with cut rifling the idea is to follow the direction of the cutter when chambering, so it would be interesting to see how it performed firing against the direction of the cut in terms of accuracy and wear.
The idea of a different chambering for each end of the barrel is interesting. What cartridges share a bore diameter, case-head dimensions, and length, close enough for the concept to work?
@@MichaelJohnson-tw7dq the biggest issue would be that .303 is a rimmed cartridge so you would have extraction problems with anything rimless
@@MichaelJohnson-tw7dq Oddly enough, the two I mentioned .303 British and the Russian 7.62 X 54R are similar enough to be fired in the rifle,
An old timer once told me that one country could straight up use another country's cartridge, but not the inverse. I was so young at the time I do not remember which cartridges he was referring to.
@@MichaelJohnson-tw7dq Both the .303 & 7.62x54R have .312 bullets. In fact, FWIU, one can convert a Lee Enfield .303 to load & fire from its default magazine the full sized Russian ammo through some 15 mins of hand working. Take note both have rimmed cartridges so maybe even the extractor on the bolt head’s ok for both.
Royal Signals had the LMG in working units until 1992 when we swapped over to SA80 and LSW.
L86A1 & L85A1?
By the time you're done flipping the sight to the other end and fiddling with the gas interface thingy, the barrel will have cooled a fair bit. Not really "quick-change" though. I'd rather just have squaddy Atkins carry a spare barrel for when we really need to burn ammo.
It also looks like it might be unpleasantly forward-heavy.
Apparently not to address barrel heating but more for wear.
And no handle fitted to the barrel to facilitate a hot change or for the ease of carrying
@@gerry343 Yes, rifling wears more quickly at the chamber end so this could nearly double the lifespan of a barrel.
@@Kaboomf At 14:25 Jonathan explains that the concern was wear at the point the bullet finally leaves the barrel, the muzzle.
@@gerry343 Which is odd, as the worst and most important wear happens at the other end. But they might have had some weird theories I guess. Or with this oddball design, throat wear ends up at the muzzle end when you flip the barrel around so it could screw up accuracy anyway...
I could be wrong on this but with the advice to quench the barrel in water, would you not run the risk of messing up the heat treat on the barrel?
Did this BREN gun come from the pattern room,Enfield Building in Nottingham?
3rd September 1937 first BREN first trail ...
Formosa chamber a BREN in 30/06 spring..
Do you still have this model?
Have you got a Henry Faulkner Ist and Second pattern BESAL?
Please a tribute to the Late Burtie J Woodend.. Custodian at the Enfield Building
Sorry, just pointing out I carried the LMG in to battle with the British Army during the Gulf War 1991, replacement SA80s were not available to supporting corps until 1993. Just as a point of curiosity, while shooting on the Sennelager ranges reading for Op Granby, 4 LMG gunners out shot 8 LSW gunners. 4 LSW gunners failed to reach minimum score, 2 LSW gunners reached minimum score, 1 shot just 1 below maximum and 1 behind him, all 4 LMG gunners got maximum, due to its accuracy and the motivation of beers on the line.
The only heavily worn barrels I have seen were .22LR. They both had the first and last three inches or so of rifling completely worn away. I suspect this may only be a viable method for much higher pressure chamberings.
The black table cloth makes it hard to see the "blue" rifle…
"If you have very sharp eyes" - the video is unfortunately way too dark.
It does make sense. If the quick release threads get damaged or otherwise fouled turn the barrel around and at worst only lose the muzzle device.
It seems to be awfully heavy though.
Nice, the BREN is one of my all time fave weapons & although not military I was lucky enough to spend time firing one here in the UK many years back. Would the reversal in rifling twist have had any impact on the aim-point I wonder?
It's bound to change the point of impact somewhat due to minor differences in tolerances, but the rifling twist direction will still be the same. A right hand twist will still be a right hand twist when the barrel is reversed.
The twist direction doesn't change regardless of which end it's being engaged from. Think of an all-threaded bolt for example, if you put a nut on one end and it tightens clockwise, then flip the bolt over and pop a nut on that end too, it'll also tighten clockwise from your perspective.
I can see exactly why we never seen these, can you imagine frantically doing that in the middle of a contact lol, I'd imagine there would be a lot of burnt fingers if issued as that doesnt have the carry handle, back in the day 12 mags were in the SPW that the number 2 would carry, with the spare barrel cleaning kit and a tin of small spare parts and some tools - that one has only 3 settings for the gas regulator, our ones had 4,
Given that chamber throat and closest to muzzle area of the barrel are the spots said to be most prone to wear in machineguns, I'm doubtful as to the effectiveness of this measure. And with 200 rounds fired the barrel would be too hot to be accurate enough and to be manipulated by bare hands (meaning that either the handle needs to be devised, or the dreaded asbestos glove manufactured and issued), while barrel changing procedure would be longer, thus prolonging the intervals between firing, which is the last thigh you'd want with machineguns.
I'm sure that George Macdonald Fraser recounts going into an attack as a company in Burma against a wood with japanese fortifications, and his section had a bren gunner and a no2 who carried a spare barrel and in this case took over the bren after the no1 was immediately shot. They didnt like using it because it became a magnet for banzai charges and general fire, as well as having to keep it going constantly due to a lack of othrr mobile MGs meaning you had to constantly expose yourself.
He and others also hated having to use the Thompson (I cant remember why but I think this wasnt close jungle country, much more open central plains) so when promoted to lance corporal (who were expected to use one) they eventually 'lost' it I seem to recall. Been a long while since I read it though.
This was in his 'Quartered Safe out Here'. Amazing war memoir and contains some interesting stuff about working as a section in the far east in 1944/45 when they got their act together and Slim was smashing the enemy around.
@@bebo4807 I have to say he doesnt come across as very likable in it, I enjoy his flashman books and always assumed he created the character to be as awful as possible, but after reading the memoir I suspect hes just based Flashman on himself with his insecurities added in
What do you expect of our countrymen sent across rain soaked jungle to go and kill other well trained men? He was what he was. He retained the wit to write entertaining books too. Applaudable.
As always interesting but a white sheet on the table might improve the visibility
An intriguing concept. It seems very close to functioning. Sad they weren't able to address that last hurdle.
It's usualy that last 10% of effort that is the killer of the "good idea".
@@johnmccallum8512 true
I would think a worn out chamber becoming a muzzle break can't do much to improve internal ballistics.
This reminded me of a Joke, about turning your underpants inside out to get more time out of them. Who would have thought it works with barrels as well. Note I think its a Rik Mayall Joke.
Imagine having to disassmble the hot barrel under fire are screw that frontsight back on
On the MG3 and i assume the MG42 also, there is no up and down on the barrel you can insert it either way,
obviously there still is a front and back though.
When the Bren was phased out of infantry service it was replaced by the L7 GPMG yet it was still retained by infantry battalions to supplement the GPMG. The Bren continued as the sole section level automatic weapon in non teeth arms. When the Bren was finally phased out of service with other arms it was in fact replaced by the L86A1 LSW. The LSW also replaced the L7 GPMG in infantry service as the section machine gun, being issued at a rate of two per section. The LSW was replaced by the Para Minimi as an UOR after the invasion of Iraq. The Minimi has now been phased out in turn and replaced by LMT Sharpshooters rifle. The GPMG is still retained at company level and there are dedicated machine gun platoons once again just as we had in the days of the Vickers.
Yes, theres been lots of fannying about just to realise 5.56 calibre MGs arnt so useful and you basically need larger calibre belt fed machineguns.
Yeah, the LSW replaced the LMG between 1985 and 1994 in infantry roles, depending on the unit. Was kept on in some mounted roles until 2002 though.
@@muwuny I think the LSW is actually still going (well it defiitely was a few years ago, not too sure now). It was garbage as any sort of machine gun, but I really liked it as a rifle with amazing accuracy, near zero recoil and good range, the balance felt good to carry around. Any ones they use now have good scopes attached to them and are given to spotters or similar roles, though they might have stopped this after they got all the DMRs in. Getting into a nice position prone on a roof or something and firing it in short bursts around 400 metres it could match any weapon imo.
Thats ehy everyone grabs the furst PKM they cone across UTVWIRKS the rest dont
@@Ukraineaissance2014 No it isn't. They were mostly chopped down to make carbines and the rest never returned to service.
You get most barrel erosion from the muzzle and it erodes back from heat and gas pressure. I imagine this method was not good for the chamber and throat of the barrel. Probably caused malfunctions.
Jonathan, are there any accession notes for the barrel? On a visit to the Pattern Room in 1992 we were told that it had been recovered from a skip during the closure and strip down of RSAF Enfield when someone thought it *might* have some historical significance. Given the documentary background that's been researched I wonder whether that was accurate or perhaps a little hyperbole on the part of our host. Do the collection's notes make any reference?
It would be interesting to manufacture a copy of the barrel, and run the experiment described. There must be enough Brens left around that it would not be desecration of an historic artifact to run a few thousand rounds through it. (Obviously, the original barrel is an historical artifact.)
I gather that muzzle blast doesn't erode and/or fill the unused chamber with fouling at the muzzle end?
Please excuse me, if I am somewhat sceptical of that.
This barrel is also missing its carry-handle, so the poor crewman would have to play "hot potato" with the damn thing.
Here on the internet, the correct thumbnail title format is "2 barrels 1 Bren".
My mates in the service made me fire the Swedish FN MAG without me having any practice with it. They found it hilarious and didn't stop me in time, so after 400 or so live rounds, the gas regulator just fell off. So I'm thinking the wearing of the rifling isn't the most sensitive part, but again it's a whole different machine gun
Did you hit any of them?
Oooo they are very similar guns to be honest and you can break them both the same way. The gas regulator is different though and it sounds like they cranked it up to maximum for shits and giggles.
So the theory to reduce barrel wear was to… Use the same barrel but turned around. I wonder why this didn’t get adopted 🤔🤣
I would have thought that in a bren gun carrier they could be liquid cooled or just repurpose the vickers and give the brens to the infantry...? oh and have sleeve on the flash hider that goes into the breech that would protect it from the burning gasses.
That wasn't the purpose of the Universal Carrier. It was a motorised stores cart, the Bren was just a nod at self defence.
I'm speculating, but a lesson from WW1 will have been how many successful assaults were then lost to German counterattacks.
...of relevant interest here. If you go the carrier's Wikipedia entry there's a photo of a 3 man Bren Gun team dismounting one and carrying a spare barrel in hand.
The idea has potential, but in this case it was obviously not fully developed. It reminds me of the way some machine guns have reversible firing pins. So if the tip breaks off, the bolt can be disassembled & the firing pin simply turned around. Well in the case of MGs with true firing pins, anyway.
I think I'll say something that maybe someone in the war ministry should be said at the very beginning of the trial, "You do know there's a war on?"
Unlike Marmite, i Much love the bren...
How dare you!
Marmite is the food of god's lol
A British , Wartime, Passive-aggressive memo! It sounds like a literary masterpiece.
I really wanted to name my kids Bren and Sten, she didn’t let me.
I'm calling it right now, it is only a matter of time until it pops up in a game as the "suppressed barrel" modification.
Is it new? Of course it is! It's Bren new! I'll see myself out
How to make a fast swap barrel system into a not-so fast swap barrel system.
So when you reverse the barrel, do you also have to point the gun in the opposite direction to keep firing at your target? 😛
"What can we do?" - clearly you need to have a couple of barrels made to their specs & borrow a Bren from stocks & go recreate their intended test, that's what you can do! 😉
Not just the mid-80's, it was in service until 1994 until replaced by the LSW in infantry roles, and 2002 in mounted watchtower roles (mostly because of the ease of mounting night vision optics to it).
No you just made that up fella. They were all gone by by 92. There was not a single solitary Bren L4 out there in service in 2002. Not a single "other arms" regiment or corps still had Brens. Not the AGC or RMP, not the RAMC, not the Army Air Corps, nor the RLC, not the Royal Artillery, not the RTR or the Hussars or the Dragoons. Not the Defence Dogs School. Not the county yeomanry not even the cadet forces. Gone. Gas axed. Sold to whoever. No training material. No actual memory of them in the mind of anyone who walked into a recruitment office after 1992. The night vision optics of the 90s were designed to fit a L85 or L86 or L7 - Brens would not recieve them.
Mate - black barrel on black table not so good. 😀 A bit of contrast would be nice in the background as well.
"Every barrel has a life" - be a barrel
Was the designer a flautist? Seems like it was worth exploring. This could well be an H&K or Hernstal patent we take for granted for example, if it had worked.
When in Doubt keep it simple and order more barrels.
Once you've fired 200 rounds through both sides I imagine there is no "cool" spot of the barrel to grab it off and replace it all together...
I assume they would have put a handle on them if they'd proceeded with the idea.
Wow. I can foresee someone take an AR barrel with a chamber on each end and doing a test with it. I don't foresee any advantage to this. A worn chamber would seem to be as poor as a worn crown in my estimation.
was it not phased out by the gpmg /fn mag ? also the drawing shows that the muzzlebrake/sight assembly has the same interupted thread as the breach end ,so in theory the muzzlebrake should undo the same as the barrel lock i.e. 60 degree turn which should make "changing barrels"shorter than the 2hours to unscrew it 😅
Depends on the unit. Non infantry went straight from the L4 LMG to the L86A1 LSW. Infantry were mostly GPMG armed as the section weapon post Falklands until being forced to swap to LSW as the section weapon. They retained some LMGs of course up until the big change to 5.56, mostly for NI service, but they were in abeyance and parts were getting harder to source.
@@zoiders L4 was also retained longer and well liked by the RM as it functioned better than GPMG in the arctic.
We had brens in the first gulf war
A beautifully smart stupid idea.
That's a light machine gun. That looks anything but light.
I'm really quite sad that you didn't chinese-fingertrap that barrel 🤔🤣
It's my favorite Forgotten weapons episode when he did that with a Mas36 bayonet.
Is it new? It's BREN new!😄
Love the line, "weight wise it was okay for the period!"
I did meet as an adult The Son of Neighbours of My Parents, even after the decades He was still a giant, 6'8" cube. He recounted His naive stupidity in saying during basic that He'd fired the Bren, the rest of The Bush War He lugged a Bren. His opinion of the weight can't be written here! And He reckoned The FN FAL, not The SLR, wasn't practically, significantly less good than the Bren.
Only shot Bren & SLR, but I can't imagine that being true. The Bren was far superior even in single shot. I can still appreciate not wanting to lug it and all the ammunition around though.
@@ethelmini Early, and due to sanctions, The Bren was SAW, later supplemented. The FN. was always the armourers nightmare, mixed metric and imperial supplies, so mixed full-auto and semi-auto non-interchangeble parts. Brit SLR, NATO FAL.
A bit like the original transit van, uk, all imperial. Europe, all metric. Same body shell, but nothing else was interchangeable other than the wheels.
Am I stupid or wouldn't that flip the twist on the rifling ?!
Have a look at a drill bit some time and you'll know.
Think of a piece of threaded rod. It doesn't matter which end you screw a nut on it's still a right hand thread
videos de terror,dilkhush melody
get Peter laidler on
Yeah, I heard he's our of prison now. I'm sure it'd do no end of good to the reputation of the Royal Armouries.
Watching this I remembered the idiot that didn't who didn't seat the barrel properly, and watching his barrel disappear down range! It wasn't me, thank The FSM.
There's a high giggle factor with The BREN.
Not a good idea then.
Will you ever feature WW2 Japanese weapons? Specifically the submachine guns.
Are there any in the Royal Armories Museum?
Bummer.. I thought it was going to be used as a sniper rifle! ;-) Well they were known to be very accurate, 'too accurate' for laying down suppressive fire according to some myth on UA-cam somewhere I remember, not sure if that's even possible but anyway is has semi auto which made me think sniper with long heavy barrel.
BREN was actually intended to get a No. 32 sight, that's what the rear side bracket is for, and six to seven thousand sight units were contracted, but the Brits failed where the Japanese succeeded, the Pilkington comittee axed the sight mount, and the sight units went on to be used with No. 4T sniper rifles. In regards to accuracy - from what I've read, the acceptance figure for BREN was the failure condition for No. 4, so it certainly wasn't accurate enough for a sniper rifle duty.
The Bren was never too accurate. It's a light machine gun. It fires from the open bolt on an articulated bipod, when you pull the trigger the working parts, as in the fairly hefty tipping bolt and gas piston all travel forwards with a noticeable "kerchunk". If you want a greater beaten zone and cone of fire just don't over control it and let it be a machine gun. If for instance you are engaging moving infantry you are going to track and lead you target anyway and let the burst walk. This widens your field of fire instantly.
@@zoiders Exactly. If the gun is too accurate you just relax your grip on full auto and let it 'bounce' a little more...
@@F1ghteR41 Interesting, cheers for the correction! I thought it might have been some attempt to increase the range over the No.4, they experimented with a lot of crazy things during WW2! I remembered the intended optics for it as well which probably helped give me this daft idea! LOL.
@@dogsnads5634 Spread it about a bit. Let everyone get a piece of the daily hate. The Vickers Gun Association have done a very good piece on this. A burst is ten rounds. From an LMG that's going to spread a fair amount. If you are trying to squeeze out doubles or singles from the gun with trigger control then of course it will give you that tiny cone of fire and you might want that if you are trying to fuck up one bloke in a sandbagged gun pit who's being a problem but generally it does what you tell it to if you let it run. You can squeeze very accurate doubles out of a MAG/L7 if you have it balanced properly on the gas regulator. It still spreads bullets everywhere like a mad woman's shit if you let it be a machine gun.
Well when Bren machine gun was first issued it was a bren new gun eh?
You're doubling your precision machining time to save on material. The question becomes which do you have more of?
Supplies of raw materials was a major issue in GB during the second world kerfuffle
Kind of reminds me of those cheap Italian revolvers that came out of the factory as two joined together at the muzzle to circumvent import laws.
That is an interesting idea.
@@Chris_Garman Theres a video on it, can't remember if it was on this channel or FW
I nearly miss read it as barrel bean machine gun haha
@@kiereluurs1243 King of trolling ^
"The sharp-eyed among you..." still can't see anything, Jonathan. Because it's a black gun against your black shirt and a black tablecloth with a black wall behind you and the only lights are pointed at your face. Lovely as you may be, we came to see the artifact, not the curator. Please, for the love of all that is holy, start using some contrasting colours and more (appropriately directed) lighting. And quit waving the thing at a camera across the room to show fine detail, put the gun on the table and bring the camera in for a close-up of what you want us to see.
Jonathan always comes across as being confused about his subject. He needs to follow a script to eliminate his many repetitions, and to speak in complete sentences.
@@MichaelJohnson-tw7dq I've never disliked his presentation style specifically, but about 97% of YT presenters could use your advice. I just can't _see_ WTF he's talking about most of the time because it's black on black on slightly darker black with no lights pointed directly at the subject. Real good view of his face, though.
Only an Englishman could make a gun show boring.
If the Chamber end is worn out especially the throat putting that at the pointy end would totally destroy accuracy dumbest idea ever. Fluting the barrel would do more. PS anyone who has ever carried a BREN can tell you that barrel nut was its downfall easily knocked to the unlocked position where your barrel repeatedly falls to the ground as for mag fed it should never have stayed in service so long out of date before WW2 started. No fore end to hold and a lousy carry handle only in England 😜
"anyone who has ever carried a BREN can tell you that barrel nut was its downfall easily knocked to the unlocked position"
I carried a Bren many times and never had this problem.
Well, from the comments made re the barrel locking latch and forearm/carry handle.............i can only surmise you have never ACTUALLY used one or been trained on the Bren/ LMG derivatives. As per the other gents comments its not an issue with regards to any of your comments.
In conclusion the solution would have been a fluted full profile barrel to reduce weight and in cooling
the whole idea is how should put this idiotic as all get out!! the fact is it doesn't matter which direction the projectile is going down the barrel the projectile is still wearing the barrel down! while it may even the wear out on the rifling it will not stop it!