john, this side project of yours holds up well to dedicated retro hardware channels like "my life in gaming". i subscribe to DF for many reasons, but this has to be the TOP one. you earn your pay for this series alone. GREAT JOB!!!
I think an interesting topic would be the Dreamcast. How it was way ahead of it's time, wowed everone with it's graphics and yet somehow still nobody bought it. Of course this story has been told a thousand times but from a DF perspective it would be very interesting, delving into it's hardware may reveal some insight into why the unreleased PS2 killed it.
Jacob C Yep, holds up well even today. Still looks amazing. I bought it when it came out and I couldn't believe my eyes at the time, it was incredible.
I was a Sega fan from the Megadrive's release and in my view most of the hype and enthusiasm toward the company was eroded because of the disappointing yet expensive series of add ons culminating with the Saturn. The Sega CD, 32x and Saturn never lived up to the promise and by the time the Dreamcast came no one trusted Sega to deliver. Then of course Sony peed on Sega's cornflakes with the PS1. Such a shame as the Dreamcast was a great console I had a lot of fun with it. I still have my Megadrive, Saturn and Dreamcast :D
Actually 60 fps was quite hard as hell back then. Specially on home computers. Pretty much only MSX 2 got that consistently, with bitmap based systems like C64, Amiga, Atari ST rarely achieving that and being IMPOSSIBLE on PC until the complete revamp intel did with the pentium architecture.
Good lord. John, your videos are so comprehensive that after you review something, there's pretty much nothing left to be said. You cover every conceivable aspect. Well done! Yet another great video by the DF crew.
The scanlines on the NESClassic Filter is probably pretty accurate to how they would look on a cheap shadow mask CRT through composite video. The blooming and colour bleeding of a crap CRT would hide the scanlines quite a lot, which means that in a small screen it might be impossible to see the scanlines at all.
It's been three months since the release though, you'd think they would have sorted this out by now. Also it's very clever business to make people buy something they've already more than likely paid for once in their life. I fell for it when I repurchased San Andreas so I could play it on the Xbox 360. Though San Andreas is worth buying multiple times!
Well, not on DF Retro, and not until the firmware update actually releases. But yeah, once that hits, expect PS4 Pro to take over the channel again. Hopefully Boost Mode will be less of a massive failure than most of the developer patches for their games have been. Higher framerates is what PS4 Pro's extra power should have been used for in the first place, and if Boost Mode works I hope Sony will even let us choose boost mode over the developer's stupid 1440p downscaled back to 1080p patches if you use PS4 Pro with a 1080p display.
I love the N.E.S. Mini. It's certainly good enough for me. There were two main issues from my point of view. The controller length (I've got Wii extension cables now) and the measly selection of only 30 games... Well, I suppose that isn't really an issue anymore. ;)
Respect to you for mentioning the gaming crash was in the US, most UA-camrs always say the crash was a worldwide issue and hail Nintendo as the saviour of the industry in general.
Mr Know Nothing It saved gaming in the US, which is a massive part of the world market. saying "that was only the US" doesn't make it any less important.
No it doesn't make it any less important, but it doesn't make it any more important outside of the US either. This was the 80's, Japan and Europe had completely separate markets dominated by micro-computers and PC's which saw little impact from the crash. Let's not forget the NES sold abysmally in the second largest video game market (the UK). The crash nor the NES directly impacted the rest of the world, but the influence the NES brought was what shaped modern video gaming.
CONSOLE GAMING, not gaming. Arcade games were still very succesful and PC games were gaining momentum with the home computers. The 1983 is always overblown.
in the long run it affected the whole world. we have the "system" we have today of "all consoles release everywhere" instead of separate "this is for europe, this is for japan, this is for america" things because of the aftermath of the crash. if it wasn't for the crash nintendo and sega wouldn't have become the main biggest companies in the 80s and 90s. the whole gaming thing would be totally different in an universe where atari didn't fall, europe kept using weird "keyboard that plugs into a tv and you load games from a cassette" things, and nintendo and sega were japan only.
Thank you for this in depth look John. I've really been wondering how good the emulation out of this machine was. That makes my decision not to get one even easier. You'd think that Nintendo would be able to flawlessly emulate their own hardware. I expect nothing less than perfection buying a plug n play coming from Nintendo. Can't trust anyone else here on You Tube to look at this thing in depth. Everyone else is "oh look I got one and it's so amazing!"
I know I’m late, but the nes classic perfectly emulates the nes, the bit where he talked about the hud flicker that happens in the nes classic also happens on my copy of Mario 3 on my original nes. Shoulda done some more research
The best retro console is still real original hardware. But for the title of best retro emulation experience, the RetroPie is certainly a worthy contender. I'd pick that over a NES Mini any day of the week.
I love your channel. It is the most "keep'n it real" channel on the net. Cutting through all the BS all the time. Not necessarily talking about this little console but the corporate speak and claims by manufacturers, publishers and devs.
Sega 32X, Saturn, Dreamcast, Atari Jaguar, 3DO, PS1, TurboGrafx-16, and N64 would all be great choices for future hardware episodes due to their innovations and/or unorthodox hardware.
And I don't even mean that in an elitist "get real or get bent" kind of way. I've been messing with original Mega Drive and PlayStation hardware on both a CRT TV and a full HD LED TV recently. The crispness of those pixel graphics on a CRT with RGB video, the way real scanlines look with the phosphorous glow of the screen, and the immediacy of the controls when there's zero input lag... the difference is striking. Nothing on a modern LCD or OLED screen has ever come close to matching that look and feel, not even with the best emulated CRT-lookalike filters.
maybe some day companies will release new small CRTs or at least TVs that are geared toward low res. Until then all the CRTs are too heavy, have to find used, and tubes are getting older and older. I get ya though, which is why I tend to play handhelds or smaller screens (like GBA Micro, Sega Nomad, PSOne LCD screen) bc it looks pretty sharp and hides imperfections better).
I just wish some company would start making high quality CRTs for use with classic game systems. Obviously would be a niche market, but if they make a good product, it's a market that would be more than willing to buy it. I've stuck with HDMI mods or the Framemeister on a modern TV because I'm not interested trying to find a high quality CRT at a decent price (not even sure that exists anymore, it's going to cost an arm and a leg if you can find one). But if I could get a reasonably priced, high quality CRT TV, I'd be all over it.
Thanks for another great video! As far as hardware goes, I'd be curious to see a video about the Famicom Disk System! Seeing how exactly it functioned, as well as some comparisons between FDS games and their later Famicom/NES cartridge ports would be really interesting.
I really think this is a casual vs enthusiast argument. I've only realised the NES Mini's shortcomings from watching videos like these. When I first played it I thought it was great. And even going back to it after watching this video it still plays great, even though I do now notice the things you've pointed out. I think these shortcomings are more than acceptable when you get 30 games + all the required hardware for £50. Very interesting video though, thanks!
The Master System has to be the least covered console in general and i'd love to see it get some attention, it played a big part in my childhood, it was actually the 2nd one i got after the Mega Drive :S, i played them both equally.
Retroarch is the best way to play these old games, high quality CRT shaders like CRT Royale, integer scaling for pixel perfection & most importantly low input lag & accurate emulation
Real hardware or Analogue NT is the best way to play these old games; perfect CRT look with no need for lag-heavy shaders that don't look good anyway, pixel perfection with no need for scaling, and most importantly no input lag and 100% accurate audio and video
FYI, they weren't accurately emulating NES, they were going for FDS with different sound hardware, you're welcome. If you're gonna buy things like the A NT, you might as well figure out what the hardware is before you're buying it. They literally needed support for hardware different than the actual NES.
It’s interesting, for the first time I can really see how skinny the 8:7 Pixel Perfect mode is. Since I got into retro game collecting and CRTs, I’ve really started to notice how important aspect ratios are. Even for emulation, I run my CRT monitor at a 3x integer scale, and then use the geometry controls to get non-square pixels. So now that I’m so used to proper 4:3 and non-square pixels, 8:7 is clearly far too skinny.
The NES was long before my time but I liked this episode anyway, would absolutely love one on the Sega Mega Drive/Genesis. Especially with things like the Sonic&Knuckles cartridge it would make for a really interesting episode.
If you don't want to spend your life savings on NES carts, the best option is the NES Classic hacked with all 700 ROMs on it, and an optional cord extender. It has enough space for all of them, and their cover art. You can also choose an option to use a button combination shortcut for the Reset button, I like Start+Select+B+A, not used by any game so you won't hit on accident. It's VERY easy set up too, especially when compared to others who say Raspberry Pi as an option. You have official Nintendo released hardware & controller, plays exactly like originals, a VERY nice looking front end that displays cover art, very easy to navigate and has 4 save slots, looks fantastic, portable, extremely easy to set up, and just as cheap as a Raspberry Pi if you buy the NES Classic at MSRP. I know, they're hard to find at the moment, but just wait guys. Play emulator on a PC like you have been for years until Nintendo ships more, and grab one as soon as you can. Once you do, HAVE FUN! If you're a billionaire, who wants to dedicate a spot in your house for an SDTV, then yeah go for the original. :)
if you wanna play basically any console before the Nintendo 64/Dreamcast (excluding Gameboy) just invest in a PSP. it'll be 15 dollars, it emulates perfectly, it's got a huge battery, and a 8 GB SD card will hold basically every game and emulation software. while you need a hacked one, you can buy one online for like 30 dollars. did I mention you can play it on the go
Fantastic Video John, but My Life in Gaming channel already had done a similar video, but it was a surprise to know that TMNT game run at 30 FPS, I had no Idea, it is also good to know that the original Wii virtual Console NES is better then the Wii U option wich is accessible on the Wii U console too. and there is also the 3DS virtual console, wich I don't realy know how it compares with the other options. I would liked to see either how everything compares to an unofficial emulator like Mesen.
Like others have said, I am surprised you didn't compare it to the RetroUSB AVS which uses a FPGA to emulate the NES hardware. It works well and half the cost of the NT.
John, while the shelves-in-the-backdrop is a good idea for the video when you do the narration bits (you are just showing off aren't you!!), and I like the lighting you have in your room for this piece, I think it's better for you to be sitting down in the frame. Perhaps something like a coffee table in front of you with you facing like 30 degree to the camera kind of thing. I don't usually find it aesthetically pleasing with the host in the middle of the frame facing the camera dead-on without something in-between. So that setup works for the Brighton DF pieces when they only have a single host, but you may want to consider their setup they use for for the two-hosts pieces even if it's just yourself in the video? (Edit: I put down Birmingham instead of Brighton)
CyphaBorg The Master System II is a classic! It was very successful in the UK since it was cheaper than the original, and more accessible. Alex Kid is awesome but when I get into Master System collection I’ll be getting a Model I since the Model II has just RF output only, and of course, no Snail Race. That little game has such a great soundtrack.
kinda hard to go with any of these options when even a cheapo Android can in a nes emulator...or raspbury pi... Would love to see other vids! I freaking love DF retro!!
Great review! Have you thought about looking at the Sega Saturn's hardware? Far too complicated but some very impressive results from skilled programmers eg. Shenmue Saturn, N!ghts, Virtua Fighter 2, Sega Rally.
32x sounds very interesting.... the original psx would be great as well (how it handled early 3d acceleration, in an affordable way, compromises and benefits...)
Hey. I would LOVE to see a detailed look back at the Sega MegaDrive/Genesis, as there were so many different versions and the output quality can really be a crapshoot for the uninformed buyer...
Thats an awesome collection you've got back there! Wondering if that is a personal collection, or if it is owned by DF as a studio location or something. I hope its a personal collection! Looks a lot like mine !
interesting to see some cues taken from vsauce and my life in gaming. would have liked to see more about the performance on all the consoles compared, and maybe something about input lag, thought I understand you guys are still looking into how to tackle that
Thanks for this in depth look at NES classic, I expected no less from you guys. I was lucky enough to get one of these puppies on launch day, it just took getting there 3 hours early and finding the right store. Anyway... I was wondering what games you were showing at the 13:05-13:15 mark and at 12:15-12:40? I got the journey to cilius? game but not sure what the others are. I'd sure like to load those up on my system. thanks
Splinter Cell: Double Agent and it's various ports. The game has two different versions basically with ps2/xbox getting a more Chaos Theory oriented title and ps3/360 getting Sam Fisher with traffic lights on his back.
No words on the AVS? it's an FGPA system from retrousb, works great and cheaper than the analogue NT (still expensive compared to the Nes Mini) EDIT: Someone talked about it an hour ago :(
Missing from so many reviews of these devices is INPUT LAG figures! So many retro games require great timing, such as Punch Out as well as most platformers. The mini is laggier than the Nt, and to me that's a dealbreaker. Kevtris did an amazing job making sure his solutions don't introduce any lag whatsoever, and that's key to the enjoyment of many NES games. Please compare, and if possible even measure input lag of these devices when connected to CRT and HDTVs.
I'm not even sure why that Analogue NT thing was included in the comparison. You were comparing something that costs $60 vs something that costs $500, for barely any difference, and not to mention the fact that there are numerous cheapo knock NES systems out there from China, or something like the Retron 5 or the OG NES with all in one carts or PC emulation. Did people actually buy that NT thing? Seems the best option for NES is: NES Mini hacked, OG NES with all in one, or PC emulation with the NES Mini controller. That Analogue NT looks to be for the hipster with lots of cash on hand. Maybe I missed something though as it seems you get more options, worse interface and doesn't look as aesthetically pleasing(device itself) as the Mini. For an actual enthusiast I'd imagine they'd have several OG NES' and have been collecting all the other NES machines or just don't bother with them.
What the hell are you even talking about? Did you even read anything I wrote past the first line???? I listed more options than the what the video even talked about, better and cheaper options to the video even??? You seriously think a $500 machine vs $60 machine is a valid comparison, and do you really think the Analogue NT is the ONLY option to modern NES playing, even ignoring all the other options I listed?
They used the Analouge NT since that is literally what you would get if you used any of the HDMI hacks on an original NES board. Meaning it's showing what is, essentially, the only way to use original hardware and have a 'native' HD output. Overall they covered most of the bases here, except third party emulation. As for why they didn't use the Retron or retroUSB's AVS, I can't tell you. I can assume the AVS wasn't used due to having the Analouge NT filling the same role, but as for the Retron I'm not sure. Maybe they figured the results of the Retron would be too close to the Virtual Console, maybe they didn't want to promote the use of the Retron since the company is pretty scummy, maybe they just didn't have one on hand.
That still doesn't make much sense to me. NES mini isn't original hardware and costs 10x less. The Retron is much cheaper and covers a wider array of hardware thus giving you more bang for it's buck and the Analogue NT isn't cycle accurate either and is an FPGA. You're just paying extra for stuff like an aluminum body and wireless controllers and even then it's overblown. Not to mention an HDMI mod for your NES would cost about $250-300 with shipping and that's with original hardware. I just think it's just bizarre for a comparison to compare a cheapo system like the NES mini to something like the Analogue NT given the massive amount of emulator hardware options available to the user. If we were going high end, why not load up a mini PC with $500 parts with an i3 or q9500 4GB RAM etc and put Nestopia on it for a cycle accurate NES emulator? Could even 3D print your own custom case. Or just throw a rock to hit one of the dozens of NES clone systems from China to compare something within the NES price range, or even the Retro-Bit or Raspberry Pi something. I haven't heard any stories of the Retron people being scummy, but it's not like I've been paying much attention either. You have a point about availability, but I still think it's a weird comparison, might as well compare a Lada to a 2016 Maserati, but in this case the Maserati has the engine of a Lada.
SaintAlia_of_the_Games it's pretty simple: they used the Analogue Nt to have a perfect reference by which to compare the quality of the NES classic. To compare accuracy you need to compare to a real NES. Real NES doesn't have HDMI so you need either an HDMI modded NES or something like an Analogue Nt which uses real NES components so is essentially the same thing. Note that they didn't use the newer Nt Mini which is an FPGA. Using a Retron or AVS or PC emulator is thus pointless as they are not as accurate and/or veer quite far from being a simple console you plug in like a real NES or the Classic. Comparing NES classic to (for example) the AVS may also be interesting for different reasons, but that is completely different than the point here of "how accurate is it?"
Analogue NT isn't 'perfect'. Also it's more expensive than modding an actual NES, which provides an actual perfect NES experience, because it IS an NES. And I also mentioned cycle accurate emulators which would give a better NES experience than Analogue NT which you can load up on a cheap comp. Normal emulators aren't comparable to cycle accurate emulators which are almost perfect, but at a heavy performance hit, but a cheapo system with a really good CPU will be able to do that. So if you want actual perfection and accuracy, there is a better and cheaper option than Analogue NT. Going by Tejan455 though I'm thinking it's more of having one on hand or maybe it's just the new hotness. The Retron was brought up because it'd make more sense to compare it to the Mini-NT, although more expensive it does a lot more, and it's kinda within the same price range or more or less the same value for money. Analogue NT just doens't fit, as if you want actual perfect emulation there are better ways to achieve it and it's far beyond the price bracket of the Mini.
Finger's crossed that the switch will have the crt filter from the nes mini for it's virtual console games. The crt filter is really good the 3ds's upscaling on game boy games was pretty bad. Nes games look really good on the 3ds because they are both 240p resolution.
Great job! Super in-depth video, and I appreciate the full coverage of the Analogue NT - most channels just quickly say "hey nice expensive NES"
the editing in this video is top notch. that scene where the box is opened up and the mobo is moving on the table is *mint*
Would have loved to see some emulator comparisons. Input lag, sound accuracy and stuff like that. Anyway great stuff as always.
john, this side project of yours holds up well to dedicated retro hardware channels like "my life in gaming". i subscribe to DF for many reasons, but this has to be the TOP one. you earn your pay for this series alone. GREAT JOB!!!
A Sega Saturn start up sound on a Nintendo video! I am pleased by this.
I think an interesting topic would be the Dreamcast. How it was way ahead of it's time, wowed everone with it's graphics and yet somehow still nobody bought it. Of course this story has been told a thousand times but from a DF perspective it would be very interesting, delving into it's hardware may reveal some insight into why the unreleased PS2 killed it.
nicklong27 Soul Calibur in VGA is amazing.
Jacob C. even better in 4k on pc ..so detailed you can see Taki's cameltoe XD.
Powerstone is still one of my all time favorite fighting games!
Jacob C Yep, holds up well even today. Still looks amazing. I bought it when it came out and I couldn't believe my eyes at the time, it was incredible.
I was a Sega fan from the Megadrive's release and in my view most of the hype and enthusiasm toward the company was eroded because of the disappointing yet expensive series of add ons culminating with the Saturn. The Sega CD, 32x and Saturn never lived up to the promise and by the time the Dreamcast came no one trusted Sega to deliver. Then of course Sony peed on Sega's cornflakes with the PS1. Such a shame as the Dreamcast was a great console I had a lot of fun with it. I still have my Megadrive, Saturn and Dreamcast :D
Even NES games run at 60 fps.
Carl That's not exactly hard with these games...
Carl ps2 games were running on 11fps and nobody complained, nobody even knew what ,,fps" means
Mantas Pavardė Lots of PC gamers did.
Actually 60 fps was quite hard as hell back then.
Specially on home computers.
Pretty much only MSX 2 got that consistently, with bitmap based systems like C64, Amiga, Atari ST rarely achieving that and being IMPOSSIBLE on PC until the complete revamp intel did with the pentium architecture.
pc gaming was unpopular back then
THANK YOU! Finally someone goes into the details of the 3 modes differences. I will probably chose CRT mode.
Good lord. John, your videos are so comprehensive that after you review something, there's pretty much nothing left to be said. You cover every conceivable aspect. Well done! Yet another great video by the DF crew.
"This message, brought to you by Sega!" Haha. That was great.
DF Retro is the best part of this channel. keep up the good work John
CRT filter on the nes mini looks exactly like what I remember of the games from this generation to the first Xbox. This is the best version to play.
😂 I can confirm it doesn’t
The scanlines on the NESClassic Filter is probably pretty accurate to how they would look on a cheap shadow mask CRT through composite video. The blooming and colour bleeding of a crap CRT would hide the scanlines quite a lot, which means that in a small screen it might be impossible to see the scanlines at all.
These sell for $200+ Nintendo seriously needs to make more for the fans who want it.
Devin Money buy from scalpers. If ur stupid enough to want one these, u deserve to pay through the nose for it
Devin Money or maybe they only made a few on purpose to make it seem like a more desired product than it actually is
It's been three months since the release though, you'd think they would have sorted this out by now. Also it's very clever business to make people buy something they've already more than likely paid for once in their life. I fell for it when I repurchased San Andreas so I could play it on the Xbox 360. Though San Andreas is worth buying multiple times!
I really loved this episode, you've put a lot of love and effort in it c:
Finally someone mentions the sound emulation. No one would touch this topic! Keep it up.
One of the best channels on the net and they have a turning/swiggly hot dog head looking guy talking about games.
Next up, PS4 Pro's Boost Mode
CommodoreKong ...Yes, yes it is. *laughs in pc Master race*
Geert Matthys Huhuhu so funny
Have a cooky
Seeing their current track record of videos isn't anything nearly as interesting. I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't touch on that at all.
Well, not on DF Retro, and not until the firmware update actually releases. But yeah, once that hits, expect PS4 Pro to take over the channel again. Hopefully Boost Mode will be less of a massive failure than most of the developer patches for their games have been. Higher framerates is what PS4 Pro's extra power should have been used for in the first place, and if Boost Mode works I hope Sony will even let us choose boost mode over the developer's stupid 1440p downscaled back to 1080p patches if you use PS4 Pro with a 1080p display.
mjc0961 Battlefield 1 uses the power of the pro for improved 1080p,better effects ,AND vastly improved framerate.
I love the N.E.S. Mini. It's certainly good enough for me. There were two main issues from my point of view. The controller length (I've got Wii extension cables now) and the measly selection of only 30 games... Well, I suppose that isn't really an issue anymore. ;)
Respect to you for mentioning the gaming crash was in the US, most UA-camrs always say the crash was a worldwide issue and hail Nintendo as the saviour of the industry in general.
Mr Know Nothing It saved gaming in the US, which is a massive part of the world market. saying "that was only the US" doesn't make it any less important.
No it doesn't make it any less important, but it doesn't make it any more important outside of the US either. This was the 80's, Japan and Europe had completely separate markets dominated by micro-computers and PC's which saw little impact from the crash. Let's not forget the NES sold abysmally in the second largest video game market (the UK). The crash nor the NES directly impacted the rest of the world, but the influence the NES brought was what shaped modern video gaming.
CONSOLE GAMING, not gaming. Arcade games were still very succesful and PC games were gaining momentum with the home computers. The 1983 is always overblown.
in the long run it affected the whole world. we have the "system" we have today of "all consoles release everywhere" instead of separate "this is for europe, this is for japan, this is for america" things because of the aftermath of the crash.
if it wasn't for the crash nintendo and sega wouldn't have become the main biggest companies in the 80s and 90s. the whole gaming thing would be totally different in an universe where atari didn't fall, europe kept using weird "keyboard that plugs into a tv and you load games from a cassette" things, and nintendo and sega were japan only.
Great review John, thank you for them per explanation. Would love to see more retro console reviews like this, 32X, Sega CD, NEC PC-FX etc.
VHS video effects on NES footage.
**Does not compute**
Could be to show the RF tuning flicker effect.
Probably hehe. It just made my brain melt. :)
Thank you for this in depth look John. I've really been wondering how good the emulation out of this machine was. That makes my decision not to get one even easier. You'd think that Nintendo would be able to flawlessly emulate their own hardware. I expect nothing less than perfection buying a plug n play coming from Nintendo. Can't trust anyone else here on You Tube to look at this thing in depth. Everyone else is "oh look I got one and it's so amazing!"
I know I’m late, but the nes classic perfectly emulates the nes, the bit where he talked about the hud flicker that happens in the nes classic also happens on my copy of Mario 3 on my original nes. Shoulda done some more research
I need an SNES Classic Edition! Oh man, so many great games.
So did you get one?
Raspberry Pi 3 + Retropie 4.1 + 128GB MicroSD + 8bitdo Nes Gamepad = The best retro console ever!
The best retro console is still real original hardware. But for the title of best retro emulation experience, the RetroPie is certainly a worthy contender. I'd pick that over a NES Mini any day of the week.
No, too much latency.
Ehhhhh......not really.
You don't even need a 128GB SD, 32GB is enough
Amit Sandler If you want to play many PSX,Sega CD games yes
I love my NES Mini, but damn, i gotta say "i'm far more looking forward to playing Nintendo Classics on the go" with the Nintendo Switch.
I love your channel.
It is the most "keep'n it real" channel on the net. Cutting through all the BS all the time. Not necessarily talking about this little console but the corporate speak and claims by manufacturers, publishers and devs.
By far the best review for this toy - everyone should learn from your channel.
I loved the TNMT 30fps note, sponsored by Sega! Also, the stop motion NES mini VS NES Sr was funny. Thanks for trying something different
Sega 32X, Saturn, Dreamcast, Atari Jaguar, 3DO, PS1, TurboGrafx-16, and N64 would all be great choices for future hardware episodes due to their innovations and/or unorthodox hardware.
I prefer the real Nes. The feeling can't be matched
Real original hardware on a CRT television. Anything else just feels wrong.
And I don't even mean that in an elitist "get real or get bent" kind of way. I've been messing with original Mega Drive and PlayStation hardware on both a CRT TV and a full HD LED TV recently. The crispness of those pixel graphics on a CRT with RGB video, the way real scanlines look with the phosphorous glow of the screen, and the immediacy of the controls when there's zero input lag... the difference is striking. Nothing on a modern LCD or OLED screen has ever come close to matching that look and feel, not even with the best emulated CRT-lookalike filters.
maybe some day companies will release new small CRTs or at least TVs that are geared toward low res. Until then all the CRTs are too heavy, have to find used, and tubes are getting older and older. I get ya though, which is why I tend to play handhelds or smaller screens (like GBA Micro, Sega Nomad, PSOne LCD screen) bc it looks pretty sharp and hides imperfections better).
I just wish some company would start making high quality CRTs for use with classic game systems. Obviously would be a niche market, but if they make a good product, it's a market that would be more than willing to buy it. I've stuck with HDMI mods or the Framemeister on a modern TV because I'm not interested trying to find a high quality CRT at a decent price (not even sure that exists anymore, it's going to cost an arm and a leg if you can find one). But if I could get a reasonably priced, high quality CRT TV, I'd be all over it.
mjc0961 I thought the exact same thing. I would buy a video game orientated CRT with modern components for sure!
Would like to see Resident Evil 2 show up on df retro. Specifically the n64 release. Keep them coming!
I'm already subbed to My Life in Gaming for this type of thing and nobody can outdo their thorough coverage. But I'll watch this anyway.
suggestion for future episodes DF retro: Eternal Darkness sanity's requiem
Even though I'm not a retro gamer I really enjoyed your video! Well done!
Thanks for another great video! As far as hardware goes, I'd be curious to see a video about the Famicom Disk System! Seeing how exactly it functioned, as well as some comparisons between FDS games and their later Famicom/NES cartridge ports would be really interesting.
Great stuff, I'm up for more retro hardware videos like this
As someone who actually owns one I'd love to see a video on the 32X.
I really think this is a casual vs enthusiast argument. I've only realised the NES Mini's shortcomings from watching videos like these. When I first played it I thought it was great. And even going back to it after watching this video it still plays great, even though I do now notice the things you've pointed out.
I think these shortcomings are more than acceptable when you get 30 games + all the required hardware for £50. Very interesting video though, thanks!
Great job, very interesting video, thanks ! It would be great to have a DF retro episode about the very special and mysterious SEGA 32X :-)
The Master System has to be the least covered console in general and i'd love to see it get some attention, it played a big part in my childhood, it was actually the 2nd one i got after the Mega Drive :S, i played them both equally.
Retroarch is the best way to play these old games, high quality CRT shaders like CRT Royale, integer scaling for pixel perfection & most importantly low input lag & accurate emulation
Real hardware or Analogue NT is the best way to play these old games; perfect CRT look with no need for lag-heavy shaders that don't look good anyway, pixel perfection with no need for scaling, and most importantly no input lag and 100% accurate audio and video
Massive thumbs up for using Shatterhand's music at the start.
FYI, they weren't accurately emulating NES, they were going for FDS with different sound hardware, you're welcome. If you're gonna buy things like the A NT, you might as well figure out what the hardware is before you're buying it. They literally needed support for hardware different than the actual NES.
I highly doubt he bought it. He was probably given one for free to review.
It’s interesting, for the first time I can really see how skinny the 8:7 Pixel Perfect mode is. Since I got into retro game collecting and CRTs, I’ve really started to notice how important aspect ratios are. Even for emulation, I run my CRT monitor at a 3x integer scale, and then use the geometry controls to get non-square pixels. So now that I’m so used to proper 4:3 and non-square pixels, 8:7 is clearly far too skinny.
Nice Saturn bootup at the beginning.
The NES was long before my time but I liked this episode anyway, would absolutely love one on the Sega Mega Drive/Genesis. Especially with things like the Sonic&Knuckles cartridge it would make for a really interesting episode.
nice job, John.we want more!
Shatterhand soundtrack
If you don't want to spend your life savings on NES carts, the best option is the NES Classic hacked with all 700 ROMs on it, and an optional cord extender. It has enough space for all of them, and their cover art. You can also choose an option to use a button combination shortcut for the Reset button, I like Start+Select+B+A, not used by any game so you won't hit on accident. It's VERY easy set up too, especially when compared to others who say Raspberry Pi as an option. You have official Nintendo released hardware & controller, plays exactly like originals, a VERY nice looking front end that displays cover art, very easy to navigate and has 4 save slots, looks fantastic, portable, extremely easy to set up, and just as cheap as a Raspberry Pi if you buy the NES Classic at MSRP. I know, they're hard to find at the moment, but just wait guys. Play emulator on a PC like you have been for years until Nintendo ships more, and grab one as soon as you can. Once you do, HAVE FUN! If you're a billionaire, who wants to dedicate a spot in your house for an SDTV, then yeah go for the original. :)
if you wanna play basically any console before the Nintendo 64/Dreamcast (excluding Gameboy) just invest in a PSP. it'll be 15 dollars, it emulates perfectly, it's got a huge battery, and a 8 GB SD card will hold basically every game and emulation software. while you need a hacked one, you can buy one online for like 30 dollars. did I mention you can play it on the go
For those who want to use a real NES on a modern TV, just use RF. It looks fine and eliminates the issue of trying to use low-res composite.
A Genesis/32X combo popping out with the "toasty!" sound clip? Instaliked.
Fantastic Video John, but My Life in Gaming channel already had done a similar video, but it was a surprise to know that TMNT game run at 30 FPS, I had no Idea, it is also good to know that the original Wii virtual Console NES is better then the Wii U option wich is accessible on the Wii U console too. and there is also the 3DS virtual console, wich I don't realy know how it compares with the other options. I would liked to see either how everything compares to an unofficial emulator like Mesen.
This episode was so good.
I'd love for you to talk about the SEGA CD. Such an underrated add-on (I have the Sega CDX; talk about that, too!).
Mega Man 1 deserved to be included
Like others have said, I am surprised you didn't compare it to the RetroUSB AVS which uses a FPGA to emulate the NES hardware. It works well and half the cost of the NT.
John, while the shelves-in-the-backdrop is a good idea for the video when you do the narration bits (you are just showing off aren't you!!), and I like the lighting you have in your room for this piece, I think it's better for you to be sitting down in the frame. Perhaps something like a coffee table in front of you with you facing like 30 degree to the camera kind of thing. I don't usually find it aesthetically pleasing with the host in the middle of the frame facing the camera dead-on without something in-between. So that setup works for the Brighton DF pieces when they only have a single host, but you may want to consider their setup they use for for the two-hosts pieces even if it's just yourself in the video?
(Edit: I put down Birmingham instead of Brighton)
I remember that Master System II,my cousin had one.I was particularly interested in Alex Kid being build-in.
CyphaBorg The Master System II is a classic! It was very successful in the UK since it was cheaper than the original, and more accessible. Alex Kid is awesome but when I get into Master System collection I’ll be getting a Model I since the Model II has just RF output only, and of course, no Snail Race. That little game has such a great soundtrack.
yes! cant wait until test the dreamcast, i need justification for buying one, sigh it was ahead of its time but no one wanted it
I have a complete rom pack on the classic mini.
More than 800 games!
loved it! would like to see your verdict on the snes!
I still have some great CRT TVs to play my NES on. :)
Aaron Storm Nice
Great video :D next time: Sega Master System
Donkey Kong Jr is a must. Dragon ball z ii, dragon quest, or other few out of a ton of games that didn't make it here would've been awesome.
You should do the Amstrad CPC 464 of course! An in-depth discussion between the green-screen version and the colour would be more than welcome.
Basically what I got from the video is that it reminded me that Silver Surfer's soundtrack is awesome.
DF's Hardware based episodes should be in chronological order, so maybe a Master System episode.
legendary upload as usual
Thanks John - great vid as always.
Y'know, I really hope you guys get your hands on a RetroAVS and Anologue NT Mini. That'd sound like a great comparison episode.
kinda hard to go with any of these options when even a cheapo Android can in a nes emulator...or raspbury pi...
Would love to see other vids! I freaking love DF retro!!
Great review! Have you thought about looking at the Sega Saturn's hardware? Far too complicated but some very impressive results from skilled programmers eg. Shenmue Saturn, N!ghts, Virtua Fighter 2, Sega Rally.
would love to see more framerate analysis of old games :D
32x sounds very interesting.... the original psx would be great as well (how it handled early 3d acceleration, in an affordable way, compromises and benefits...)
Hey. I would LOVE to see a detailed look back at the Sega MegaDrive/Genesis, as there were so many different versions and the output quality can really be a crapshoot for the uninformed buyer...
Thanks! I really appreciate your work!!
Enjoyed this, reminded me quite a bit of GameSack and I always love a bit of GameSack.
That comes across as an insult to John actually.
very nice video definitely would like to see more content like this episode in the future 👍👍👍
Great video, would love to see a gamecube review!
Sometimes I feel like, with enough effort, I could do John's job. Then I watch any video he's ever made
Anyone saw the opening of the motherboard and think of Game Sack like me? I really like those two, especially the hardware reviews.
Thats an awesome collection you've got back there! Wondering if that is a personal collection, or if it is owned by DF as a studio location or something. I hope its a personal collection! Looks a lot like mine !
interesting to see some cues taken from vsauce and my life in gaming. would have liked to see more about the performance on all the consoles compared, and maybe something about input lag, thought I understand you guys are still looking into how to tackle that
Thanks for this in depth look at NES classic, I expected no less from you guys. I was lucky enough to get one of these puppies on launch day, it just took getting there 3 hours early and finding the right store. Anyway...
I was wondering what games you were showing at the 13:05-13:15 mark and at 12:15-12:40?
I got the journey to cilius? game but not sure what the others are. I'd sure like to load those up on my system. thanks
Love the Digital Foundry Minute :-)
Splinter Cell: Double Agent and it's various ports. The game has two different versions basically with ps2/xbox getting a more Chaos Theory oriented title and ps3/360 getting Sam Fisher with traffic lights on his back.
I enjoyed this video, thanks DF.
No words on the AVS? it's an FGPA system from retrousb, works great and cheaper than the analogue NT (still expensive compared to the Nes Mini)
EDIT: Someone talked about it an hour ago :(
Excellent video!!, but why no mention of RetroUSB's AVS system?
Great video, great intro music from Shatterland ;)
Missing from so many reviews of these devices is INPUT LAG figures! So many retro games require great timing, such as Punch Out as well as most platformers. The mini is laggier than the Nt, and to me that's a dealbreaker. Kevtris did an amazing job making sure his solutions don't introduce any lag whatsoever, and that's key to the enjoyment of many NES games. Please compare, and if possible even measure input lag of these devices when connected to CRT and HDTVs.
Not sure if you remember the NES correctly but it had tons of input lag. I know I still own one.
I'm not even sure why that Analogue NT thing was included in the comparison. You were comparing something that costs $60 vs something that costs $500, for barely any difference, and not to mention the fact that there are numerous cheapo knock NES systems out there from China, or something like the Retron 5 or the OG NES with all in one carts or PC emulation. Did people actually buy that NT thing?
Seems the best option for NES is: NES Mini hacked, OG NES with all in one, or PC emulation with the NES Mini controller. That Analogue NT looks to be for the hipster with lots of cash on hand. Maybe I missed something though as it seems you get more options, worse interface and doesn't look as aesthetically pleasing(device itself) as the Mini.
For an actual enthusiast I'd imagine they'd have several OG NES' and have been collecting all the other NES machines or just don't bother with them.
What the hell are you even talking about? Did you even read anything I wrote past the first line???? I listed more options than the what the video even talked about, better and cheaper options to the video even???
You seriously think a $500 machine vs $60 machine is a valid comparison, and do you really think the Analogue NT is the ONLY option to modern NES playing, even ignoring all the other options I listed?
They used the Analouge NT since that is literally what you would get if you used any of the HDMI hacks on an original NES board. Meaning it's showing what is, essentially, the only way to use original hardware and have a 'native' HD output. Overall they covered most of the bases here, except third party emulation.
As for why they didn't use the Retron or retroUSB's AVS, I can't tell you. I can assume the AVS wasn't used due to having the Analouge NT filling the same role, but as for the Retron I'm not sure.
Maybe they figured the results of the Retron would be too close to the Virtual Console, maybe they didn't want to promote the use of the Retron since the company is pretty scummy, maybe they just didn't have one on hand.
That still doesn't make much sense to me. NES mini isn't original hardware and costs 10x less. The Retron is much cheaper and covers a wider array of hardware thus giving you more bang for it's buck and the Analogue NT isn't cycle accurate either and is an FPGA. You're just paying extra for stuff like an aluminum body and wireless controllers and even then it's overblown. Not to mention an HDMI mod for your NES would cost about $250-300 with shipping and that's with original hardware.
I just think it's just bizarre for a comparison to compare a cheapo system like the NES mini to something like the Analogue NT given the massive amount of emulator hardware options available to the user.
If we were going high end, why not load up a mini PC with $500 parts with an i3 or q9500 4GB RAM etc and put Nestopia on it for a cycle accurate NES emulator? Could even 3D print your own custom case.
Or just throw a rock to hit one of the dozens of NES clone systems from China to compare something within the NES price range, or even the Retro-Bit or Raspberry Pi something.
I haven't heard any stories of the Retron people being scummy, but it's not like I've been paying much attention either.
You have a point about availability, but I still think it's a weird comparison, might as well compare a Lada to a 2016 Maserati, but in this case the Maserati has the engine of a Lada.
SaintAlia_of_the_Games it's pretty simple: they used the Analogue Nt to have a perfect reference by which to compare the quality of the NES classic. To compare accuracy you need to compare to a real NES. Real NES doesn't have HDMI so you need either an HDMI modded NES or something like an Analogue Nt which uses real NES components so is essentially the same thing. Note that they didn't use the newer Nt Mini which is an FPGA. Using a Retron or AVS or PC emulator is thus pointless as they are not as accurate and/or veer quite far from being a simple console you plug in like a real NES or the Classic. Comparing NES classic to (for example) the AVS may also be interesting for different reasons, but that is completely different than the point here of "how accurate is it?"
Analogue NT isn't 'perfect'. Also it's more expensive than modding an actual NES, which provides an actual perfect NES experience, because it IS an NES. And I also mentioned cycle accurate emulators which would give a better NES experience than Analogue NT which you can load up on a cheap comp. Normal emulators aren't comparable to cycle accurate emulators which are almost perfect, but at a heavy performance hit, but a cheapo system with a really good CPU will be able to do that.
So if you want actual perfection and accuracy, there is a better and cheaper option than Analogue NT.
Going by Tejan455 though I'm thinking it's more of having one on hand or maybe it's just the new hotness.
The Retron was brought up because it'd make more sense to compare it to the Mini-NT, although more expensive it does a lot more, and it's kinda within the same price range or more or less the same value for money. Analogue NT just doens't fit, as if you want actual perfect emulation there are better ways to achieve it and it's far beyond the price bracket of the Mini.
John has one of the best voices in the biz
Loved the video, keep doing more! 32X, yea, why not :-)
A break from all the PS4 comparison. Step in the right direction right now. Good on you digital foundry.
you must cover the sega saturn more
Finger's crossed that the switch will have the crt filter from the nes mini for it's virtual console games. The crt filter is really good the 3ds's upscaling on game boy games was pretty bad. Nes games look really good on the 3ds because they are both 240p resolution.