The big differences: Cobra was designed as an Infantry support weapon with simple off the shelf components. Over the years the Cobra got upgrades with new technology. Apache was designed to be part of the Assualt Breaker Project to stop Soviet Armor from going through the Folda Gap. In between the Kia Warrior was developed to scout for attack helicopters. The Appache Longbow was designed to eliminate the need for the Kiawah. One of our family friends worked on the weapon and sensor systems on all 3.
I flew the AH-1W Super Cobra and we had mission profiles that the Apache could not fill and our aircraft were typically up more in the desert environment than the AH-64s. But the newest Cobra, the AH-1Z Viper is way more advanced and faster than all current Apaches.
As my name implies, I spent 20 years as a Cobra Armament Tech. MOS 68J. After retirement I spent a few more years as an OH-58D and AH-64 tech. MIss those days.
This is a real pilot got great experience guts and stories, all of what he says is true. I am an ex ah1g repair man, Vietnam veteran and appreciate videos like this one giving lots of unknown or hard to come by information, We maintenance personnel worked long hrs to keep them flying I remember many long 15 hr or so days repairing and routine maintenance. Also, we had one hundred yards of perimeter to guard so after working long hrs at least 2or3 times a week I often did not sleep at all during nights on guard duty because of not trusting my fellow soldiers to not fall asleep on guard duty more than once I awoke from my turn to sleep a few hrs with my buddy supposed guarding and finding him fast asleep. That used to piss me off to the max. Many of us were draftees, and a lot of draftees had a bad attitude and did not like working hard or doing anything without bitching. There was FTA graffiti all over the place. Sometimes we got mortared, or rocketed by 122milimeter rockets one never knew when of course. We had a lot of problem fighting among ourselves. I remember the MPs pulling up outside at Phu Bai Combat Base manning a m50 on a loudspeaker telling everyone to stay inside the barracks, or they would get shot if coming outside. To stop a riot from starting. My Buddy shot a fellow soldier fighting inside the barrack 6 feet from me after 4 bullets of the m16 passed through his body, 2 of them missing me by and inch and the other 2 by about 6 inches. Amazingly he lived, and the army covered it up because of the rioting here in America the army did want to publicize this at all so not to make the pushback of antiwar rioters here in the states worse. This shooting never even saw a court-martial. My buddy that did the shooting was whisked away, I have no idea where he wound up. This was in Phu Bai Combat Base1970. I gained a lot of experience fixing our cobras, I did everything except engine swaps there was a separate crew for that. I changed rotorblades. once i swapped a transmission without proper tools. changed tailbooms when the got shot up beyond fixing, Drive shafts, Rear rotors, and all kinds of hydraulic lines and pumps. At Hunter army air force base Georgia we had a guy walk into the spinning tail rotor. This was bad. In Vietnam, i had a friend stick his head into a main rotor, stepping up a foot to reach something. He had one quarter of the back of his head missing, The pilots tried to give him cpr, I told them to leave him alone let him die in peace there was no saving him. His heart stopped in a minute or two. i also served in quang tri combat base. And also at Khe Sanh combat base, where our choppers when the army went into Cambodia were needed. At The Khe Sahn one night in heavy fog i was thinking what in the hell is he doing flying tonight, listened to a Huey flying away from the base and all of a sudden the noise got louder and i knew instantly he was going to crash sure as hell he made a circle after taking of mistaking the fog for ground and flew right into the mountain just a hundred yards from me a huge explosion, I had no radio to call the pilot and warn him of hitting the mountain. Flying that dark, foggy night high up in the mountains of north Vietnam was out of the question for a chopper without proper instruments. I am not done but better stop now.
Marines fly Cobra-1Z renamed to the Viper due to new engine, rotor and avionics in the same airframe. Marine Cobra of today is a totally different animal than the modified Huey from Vietnam.
Still doesn't hold a candle the the current Apache unfortunately. But is a great fit for the Corp due to the interchangeability with the Viper UH-1 Huey Command ships.
@@chad59 True it was never developed to take on mass tanks like the Apache. It is more of a GP mobile fire support platform that can break up tank attacks (not obliterate them), bunkers and that stuff.
I love the Super Cobra’s. Those things look mean as hell when they show up from behind a building and start pouring rounds into a house you just told them was giving you a problem. 😅. As a Marine on the ground, that’s a beautiful sight!
I still remember a pair of Cobras coming in about dusk to take out a VC mortar team. They were over 2km away, but the mini gun was a solid line to the ground, and a steady "grrrrr".
He's comparing a Vietnam era AH-1G cobra to a 1992 longbow Apache, it's not a fair comparison. Apples and oranges. But the AH-1Z to AH-64D is a more practical, comparison being the Zulu has dual engine and four rotor blades, flir laser designator, no 7.62 mm mini gun, no .40 mm mk 19 grenade launcher. But the real comparison is the missions. The Apache is an Army helicopter designed for anti tank with Anti personal capabilities, and the Zulu is a Marine Corp helicopter designed for close air support with an anti armor capability. The "D" apache longbow has a radar and wheels and can carry a soldier strapped to the side for rescue. The Viper has skids and can fight limited self protect air to air with 2 sidewinder missiles. Both can fire hellfire both have dual engines both have 4 blades. so two different birds for two different purposes.
@jeffshriber6120 he very clearly states "the army version was single engine" leaving it open that the early models were a different thing. And that the later Marine corps variants had dual engines. Either way, the Apache is a superior aircraft. Ps: the apache, while never really ever used, can carry stingers for air to air.
@UsedToaster again, you didn't kisten to my points and older Vietnam era cobra is no comparison to the latest Apache so it's a moot point and not even a fair comparison, it s not even apples to apples. Your too busy trying to argue. And Its hard to say one is better when the marine corp doesn't need the Apache their sole mission is close air support even the 20 mm is better for that over the 30 mm chaingun. It's a bigger aircraft, in fat it doesn't have folding blades, a universal ground, things a rotor brake things needed for naval operations. Could be incorporated to make a naval variant and probably better from a parts compatability and even training point of view. The stinger is in no way remotely in comparison with the sidewinder. The sidewinder is a true air to air missile. The future is about networked remotely operated attack Helios. Like a dedicated anti tank/ anti personnel fire scout.
@jeffshriber6120 you are too busy crying and slobbering about him comparing the Apache to the very aircraft it replaced. Rather than him bothering talking about a whiskey/zulu/viper Ah-1 that came out decades later than his service. Why would he bother? He didnt fly those. He DID fly the early cobras that were replaced by the FAR superior Apache.
I got to see the Longbows start at Rucker late 90s and later deployed with them. Loved seeing it going to work. Hope to see it in service for many years to come
I built Apaches from 1983 to 1998 in San Diego for Sub-Contractor Teledyne Ryan Aeronautical, I started on AV001 of the AH64A and finished by building the first 16 Longbows, now almost everyday I get to see AH-1Z Vipers from MCAS fly over my house for training 🇺🇸
@@kamikazi99 maybe you should do a little more research kamikazi, Teledyne Ryan Aeronautical built the WHOLE Fuselage including the doors, vertical and horizontal stabilizers and wings from 1983 to 1998 in San Diego, We shipped it on a special holding tool that fit in a Simi-Trailer to McDonnell Douglas in Mesa Arizona before Boeing bought or merged with McDonnell Douglas 🚁
My Dad served in the 114th Aviation Company in Vietnam, at Vinh Long Air Base. I enjoy listening to his stories about his time over there. He told us about how the mini guns and rocket pods on the Cobra’s at night would go out and light’em up. He said he’d sit on top of his bunker and watch the red line from all the tracer rounds and the buzzing of the mini guns as they were ripping it up out there.
Sorry guys image was taken right from his documentary and we didn't catch it. I'm trying to see if we can edit out that image without screwing up the clip and re-rendering. Nice catch from the community and you all are way more of an expert regarding helicopters than I am.
My calvery unit had 9 of the feared COBRA in vietnam war. HHC. was the air suport unit. They always patroled over the armor unit usually 9 APC's and 4 heavy M-48 Tanks.
For those wondering when he says "7.62" he means 7.62x51 NATO, its basically .308 though there are differences like 5.56 is to .223. A lot of people hear 7.62 and imagine an AK round so 7.62x39
O please this gentleman is talking 6-barrel M134 30 caliber (7.62x51) MiniGun first produced by the people who bring good things to light aka General Electric that was mounted on a United States Military Attack Helicopters so the idea that they would be chambered in 30 Russian Short aka 7.62x39 which is a Soviet designed intermediate length bottle neck cartridge round that has questionable ballistics ranges of 300 meters and greater is rather absurd.
@gullreefclub we live in a world where we have put put "caution is hot" on coffee cups and "don't put fingers here" cautions on fans and othe cutting bits. Common sense is not a common thing
Talking to two different Vietnam era Corba pilots and i learned about the sheer amount of missions they did, one after another. Absolutely grueling, but they loved the helicopter. It could rain down firepower.
He got the G and S models of the AH-1 confused. The S has a flat plexi canopy with a destruct charge in it for escape. There was also an AN/ALQ-144 "disco light" and a huge IR diffuser on the exhaust. He's correct about the rest. It's just not a S in his hands. Small thing. Doesn't really talk about the changes in Air-Land Battle that came about after the fielding of the new UH-60, Ah-64, an OH-58Ds.
The Cobra was a stopgap - What the Army wanted for an Attack Helicopter was the Lockheed AH-56 Cheyenne. That was a rigid rotor compound helicopter (Had wings as well as the rotor), with a pusher propeller as well as the tail rotor, it was fast - so fast the the Army acquired a couple of F-51 Mustangs as chase aircraft for the test program. It had a weapon/sensor loadout as close as the 1860s could provide to an early Apache. But - it was a big, complicated, and expensive beast, and, like any Super High Tech 1960s project exploring new technologies, it was taking longer to develop, and was costing way more than it was expected to. The Army wanted Armed Helicopters that were faster than the Huey and the Chinook, (So that they could escort them without the slicks slowing down so the guns could keep up), So they asked Bell, who'd been playing with the idea of a slimmed-down H-13 (Bell 47) gunship to do the same with the UH-1. Since the dynamic components were the same, and the systems were pretty much off the shelf, Bell was able to develop and field the AH-1 quickly - and it was just what the Army needed - Fast enough, good weapons, and since is used Huey moving parts, Logistics was as simple as Logistics could get. Combat experience in Vietnam showed that the AH-56 was, if anything, too fast, and so it couldn't terrain mask like a Cobra, and that put it smack into the ZSU-23, SA-7 envelope. So, just as they got the bugs out of it in the Early '70s, they cancelled the AH-56, and opened up the design competition that led to the AH-64.
My beloved AH-56. I will never forgive the Air Force for killing it.
27 днів тому+2
Good in-depth discussion of the facts however two things you may not be aware of. The Cheyenne had that pusher propeller which could actually be adjusted for reverse thrust so they could stop that thing on a dime. As well, there was a gunship version of a blackhawk, not at all the lift Black Hawk which exists today but a aircraft design by Sikorsky very similar to the Apache and Cheyenne called the Blackhawk that also did not make it through research and development. Very few people seem to know about that. They got rid of the helicopter but they kept the name and labeled that to the uh-60s aircraft that we know today. As well, I'm a retired Cobra pilot and electronic warfare officer and I can guarantee you this. With all the electronic warfare jammers, chaff and flare dispensers, auto missile tracking etc., that we have on these aircraft it is extremely unlikely that a SAM will take one down. We fly so low that we have a better chance of getting a speeding ticket then getting engaged with a SAM. The missile has to have a clear site picture which means a hot aircraft against a cool sky background and not at all in the trees. Sam's won't work against Attack Helicopters if you're flying them low enough and you have the Jammers working full-time as well as ambient radiation from trees and ground which will obscure the ability for the seeker to be able to decern the helicopter from a clear blue sky. It's extremely unlikely because it's not designed for helicopters flying low, they're designed for fast movers flying high. Kind of like the Russian's flying too damn high. If you ever seen those hits those guys were flying in the stratosphere in comparison to what we do.
I had a good friend named John Bean who flew Hueys in Vietnam over two tours but was murdered by a robber who was robbing the customers in his restaurant called Herbie K's in Shreveport, Louisiana. He was very beloved. We always told him not to fight back if robbed but he had to defend his customers. He was a very good man.
AIT at Fort Rucker. 67 V & S. Aircraft Crew chief/mechanic. 1 1/2 hours front seat time in a Cobra. Maneuvers at Fort Chaffee. Guarded a Blackhawk medivac crash. Worked at Fort Rucker for DynCorp. Worked on the Apache. I feel his excitement 34 years later for me.
I was stationed in south Korea in 78 with the 4/7 air cav, I heard a story about the cobras firing while south Koreans would get under the cobras and try to catch the brass with baskets, one man was under a cobra while it was firing and backing up, the man got killed trying to catch the brass with a basket.
I was at Camp Stanley in C Trp 4/7 Cav the entire year 1985. I was an AH-1 IP and the Koreans would definitely show up within minutes of us firing on the range to catch/collect the brass from the 20mm. Baskets, aprons, you name it. All ages of people. Most of the brass trinkets bought in the ville were from AH brass. Once they started showing up we'd have to move away to avoid potential injury to them, so often the range time was reduced. BTW the rate of fire for the 20mm on the AH-1 is 730 +/- 50.....not 6000.
@ right. I’m interested in a comp between the most advanced version of the viper vs advanced version of the Apache. Also some pros and cons why you might go with one over the other (maintenance requirement) I know the Czech got the viper as combo with the advanced Huey because of parts commonality and probably lower cost. Plus the viper has a navalized version that can operate off ships.
The contrast between the Cobra's simplicity and the Apache's tech evolution is incredible. Learning how the Cobra's slim design made it so feared and how the Apache's advanced systems changed the game makes this a must-watch for any military enthusiast. What's your favorite feature of these iconic helicopters?
Being a marine who served in both iraq and Afghanistan I can say a cobra on scene was 2nd best only to the A10. I have nothing but respect for my airwing brother and sisters.
Regardless of any other things, the AH-64 Apache is still primarily designed to engage and kill hard targets like enemy armor, it can do close air support, with Hell-fires (Expensive) and 2,75 rocket pods as well as the 30MM Chain gun. The most modernized version of the H-1 Cobra, the AH-1Z and it's prior model the AH-1W were primarily for close air support in support of ground troops, with the ability to engage and kill harder targets such as armor. The Targeting electronics and vision system on the AH-1Z are an order of magnitude better than the ones on the Apache. The USMC versions of the Cobra were better than the US Army version way back in the 1980's, when the Army was flying Mostly S models then replaced by the AH-1F, the USMC had the Ah-1J and AH-1T, later replaced by the AH-1W, now AH-1Z. Both Helicopters are very very good at close air support and killing enemy armor and hard targets like bunkers or even an entire floor of a building. And even now both current models of those Helicopters are vastly better than anything an enemy can put up against them in a fight.
Maybe you can answer a question I've had. Helicopters are by nature loud. I'm sure they have gotten quieter since the Hueys in Nam but I've noticed the vast majority of enemy about to be engaged have no idea untill rounds start impacting around them , too late for most. How far are rounds from chain gun ( 30 mm ) effective and how far away would a bird have to be not to be heard? Thanks
Well, sound is a funny thing. I've had helos "sneek up" on me when standing on a flight line. When it comes to rotor noise, the majority of it comes from the turbulence off the main and tail rotor impacting eachother. When going from 2 to 4 blade designs, (greater lift) the sound isn't softer, just more rapid. "Woop woop woop," to "pop pop pop." Newer blades have a slight "S" shape to the edges to help reduce noise. The one Big design change is "NOTAR" from Boing. It moves the tail rotor to the main body and ducts the air down the tail boom, eliminating the conflicting turbulence. It works so well, I've stood 10 feet away from the damn thing without ear protection. Its just a loud "buzz." It's practically soundless at just a couple hundred feet!
I’d wager that a compounding factor is that if a gunship is called in to shoot at you, you’re almost certainly already in a gunfight and thus surrounded by already quite loud explosions, you may well not hear a helicopter over that din
If the pilot is feathering the blades and they are properly in track and balance, you'll barely hear a blackhawk's blades. Interestingly, the US coast guard intentionally brings their blackhawks out of track & balance to make sure people hear the "wop wop" coming from as far away as possible. (makes me cringe when I hear them, that's 15 minutes loiter time in wasted fuel a flight and an extra set of blades a year.) At one end, you'll hear the turbines and the wind of the rotor wash in the vegitation before you hear the rotors, at the other end you'll hear the same bird fighting for altitude with a heavy load from 12 miles away - depends on what the pilot's doing with the sticks. (generally, the more "lift" you ask of the rotor blades, the louder she's going to "wop wop".) I'll let an Apache guy talk about chin guns.
Noise suppression is a function of altitude, ground interference, and wind direction. Effective range of the 30mm is approximately 3 kilometers. It doesn't have to be really accurate since it's firing, HE rounds.
My stepfather was a mechanical engineer at Martin on the TADS/PNVS in the early 80's. I was in the military at the time and I remember him telling me what he could (unclassified) about the capability of the system and at the time it sounded like science fiction. He later worked for NASA on the shuttle program, sadly he was put out to pasture the moment the final shuttle left the launch pad (job well done! here's your pink slip).
Apache of comparable version is superior in capabilities. However AH-1 shares components with the UH-1 which is probably the main reason why the USMC kept it. Limited space aboard amphib fleet vessels encouraged sharing parts storage when feasible. As the UH-1 is phased out there will be an opportunity to switch to a different attack helicopter. Personally I think that they should choose a navalized SB-1 Defiant and an attack helicopter based on the same parts.
I'm a simple person and I think in simple terms: The Apache reflects how the Army is,stand back pound the enemy with technology. The Colbra reflects on how the Marine Coprs are, in the enemies face with a boot knife.
Having wheels on a helicopter lets you do running takeoffs. This is where you do a run just like an airplane for short distance and then take off. This uses less fuel, lets the copter lift more payload. Also handy to taxi around the ground.
Gear is also handy for any hard landings to take some of the force of impact that would otherwise be transferred to the pilots. Combat aircraft are expected to be in hard use that could wear out components more quickly and may also take damage from enemy actions, either of which could create a situation that could force some hard landings. Apache is definitely more survivable in a hard landing, in part due to the gear instead of skids.
Just want to recap, the main difference is one was purpose built and one was made quickly out of spare parts because they needed something quick. Obviously that is only talking about when they were first introduced, now both have roughly the same job and the technology is the only real difference. It all depends on the branch now since the Army retired the last Cobras in 1999 and are only used by the Marines and only the Army uses the Apache. Current units prices even have them pretty close since the Apache is roughly $52 million for the E variant and Bell has upgraded the Cobra to the AH-1Z Viper which is around $50 million.
From my experience, Cobras are used for FOB protection and local air recon. Apaches are used for assault. I was in Ramadi in the early 2000's. I'm sure the uses vary though.
The title mislead me. I wanted to hear about the different control systems and handling. It has none of that. Mostly focused on the weapons and sighting. But the later versions of the Cobra had much of the same systems.
I love the Cobra! In fact, I've loved it since my G.I.Joe days of the 80's. I remember the first GIJoe helicopter was THIS one, albeit named a bit differently (specifically as the Dragonfly AH-1X) as to not "offend" any current or past veterans and friends of the Cobra gunship. It came with the pilot figure "Wild Bill" who could sit in either cockpit position (knowledgeable kids knew the pilot flew in the BACK and the gunner was in the FRONT) and was armed with removeable missiles and bombs, had a rotating and moveable nose gun and grenade launcher, could have up to two figures transported (externally) one each landing skid, but best of all, if you held the helicopter in your right hand, there was a moveable thumb sliding switch that if slid left with a little effort, would generate the power from the kid's thumb into mechanical motion to turn the main copter blades. The blade moving switch reset immediately and one could effectively spin the blades faster and faster, with no lift unfortunately, but STILL, it was quite imaginative of Hasbro to create a working spinning battle-ready helicopter that paid tribute to the legendary Army air cavalry gunship. How I miss that chopper! I loved it so much I ended up with two of them, and even had their spinoff "tiger force" version (from Sears)! Long live GIJoe! But a big salute and thank you to the presenter in this video for his most immersive discussion about this awesome air platform! I already knew plenty about this helicopter from many talks with former pilots and crewmembers, but nothing beats the experience and knowledge of actually flying and fixing this beast of the air and force equalizer
@billygentry001 I'm not sure but here is his full interview here. ua-cam.com/video/bIZVMvOdGRs/v-deo.html You can also watch his documentary on Amazon Prime called Above the Best and his book is called South of Heaven My Year in Afghanistan. I'm sure between the three you may find your answer. I just can't fully remember what he said during his interview as far as where he was stationed.
The Conra is a more in your face type weapon, where as the Apatche has more standoff capabilities. Example, when you're engaging a tank with a TOW missle you have to have line of sight with the target and hold it for 21.5 seconds as the missile goes down range to the target, also you have to be within about 2k meters, not so with the Apatche. You don't enen have to see the target, just have someone else designate it with a lazer and send the missile down range. The Cobra was good at what it was designed for, the Aparche just took it to the next level. One minor point, the mini gun on the Cobra was not set up to fire 6k rounds a min. It was capable of that 14:40 but not set up to fire that many. Only about 4.8 k rounds a minute. Also the 20mm would only fire about 750 rounds per minute not 2k. (I'm doing those nubers by memory and its been almost 40 years since I flew them. I do miss thise days though. The men I was associated with and flying the Cobra will never be replicated...
The SNAKE was a UH-1b that Bell took a saw-zall to the cabin’s deck. A very practical and straightforward mod. But Never saw a flight demo as the birds came apart transiting to Fritchie AAF on a couple attempts; DID see six brand new UH-1gs wrecked strapped to flatbeds that ran off the road on the way to SHARP ARMY DEPOT !!! heading to the old French Colony - Mitchell Rubber Plantation !! some where in Asia !
Then the tittle of the video should be different because its misleading and borderline clickbait. I want to know the difference between the two helicopters now not a comparison of old verses new. I think many people that watched this video had the same feelings as I do.
@@rogerthat4545 The Apache has more advanced sensors that can detect and track both vehicles and gunfire while being able to see human sized targets from 3,000 meters away at night. It can take this information and pass it off to others in real time while collecting data from others using data transfer and video feeds. Apaches can also control drones from over 100 miles away. Six Apaches (one squadron) can destroy up to 96 vehicles in under 3 minutes with only one spotter. Popular Mechanics claimed that in 2007 Iraq, the Apache claimed 78% of all enemies killed with less than 200 Apaches in the country. The Cobra has to see the targets or get information over the radio. They can only attack targets one at a time. They stay near the infantry and are constantly doing CAS missions.
@@rogerthat4545 Like I said, the Cobra doesn't have enough sensors to control the battlefield. They can only handle one target at a time while the Apaches can at least track all the visible targets on the battlefield in real time. This limits the Cobra to close up CAS missions.
I'm only a minute in so I have no idea where he's going to go on his thoughts. BUT, I am curious as to why you're not using the 1Z as an example, because there is a slight difference. Or big difference. Probably big difference, but I'v never flown one so I'll defer to the experts.
EDIT: I pretty much knew where he was going to go and I don't even tyhink an expert would argue. That he flew the Cobra and it obviously shows that he really liked it at least showed respect for the Apaches elder. Gotta respect the respect. But, my eyes are going to shit so I know that I'd get my ass handed to me in either machine, so that means that I'm taking the 1Z because it looks way cooler and, true or not, I believe that rotor head on the 1Z is gonna give me a slight advantage, which will hopefully let me get a few extra seconds to kiss my ass goodbye before I become a flaming lawn dart.
The Cobra has been a four rotor aircraft for a number of years now. The Army version has been in the boneyard for decades. Current version is the AH-1Z.
As the one commenter already mentioned he is comparing a Vietnam Era mod s Cobra with an AH-64D model. NOBODY who was recently flying Mod S Cobras came back to "Mother Rucker" to the fly 64D models. If memory serves me right, the last unit to turn in Cobras was the aviation unit in Hawaii in 99. So take what this guy says with a very large grain of salt. Or, like me, discount everything he says as unreliable. As when he states that the 64D model had a HUD (heads up display). Not even the alpha model 64 had a HUD. All symbology was visible through the IHADSS. The Cobra had a HUD. Get better SMEs for your interviews.
I'll give a different comparison. I was a AH-1 crewchief (67-Y) and was there when these great new Apaches were coming out. The only thing, and I mean the ONLY thing the Apache coud do is get PBS on the screen. They were such a pile of 💩. The vent louvers opened skyward. Every time it rained the electronics compartments flooded. WTF is that?? Meanwhile, the Cobras were flying multi sorties every day. While I was in Korea, sometimes 3 or 4 flights every day. And a crewchief had 2 birds. Preflight, postflight, scheduled maintenance, and dailies on 2 birds. And we kept them flying. Day after day, month after month. Meanwhile the 'superior' Apaches sat. Grounded. Useless. Now THAT is a comparison of the 2 helicopters at the same time frame. Not the latest gen Apache vs. a Vietnam 1st gen Cobra. Even today, I would 100% take the latest Cobra (now called Viper) the Marines fly over the Apache. Other than a 20mm chaingun vs. a 25mm, the Cobra is a better choice. They both carry the exact same armaments. But one will keep flying day after day.
His comparison is 40 years out of date when compared to the current AH-1Z Viper, which has more capability than the AH-64 in certain aspects. Current modifications upgrade the A2A capability from AIM-9L to AIM-9X and AMRAAM, the Apache cannot carry these. The AH-1Z also carries APKWS upgraded 2.75” rockets with precision guided A2G and A2A capability, a program the army didn’t buy into.
@kmrtnsn why would he bother? He is sticking to what he knows. You people need to get over that. It would be like someone trashing the legacy hornet vs the Super Hornet (Rhino). Its still VALID.
His Apache experience is also out of date now. It has improved a great deal in recent decades. They can fire some missiles dozens of miles away now, beyond the range of MANPADS. They have numerous other improvements but I don’t know which ones are okay to talk about so I will leave it at that. He was just speaking about his own experience anyways, not a comparison between current versions.
I'm a retired Cobra pilot and I've had this discussion with other people. Yes, the Zulu model can fire air-to-air missiles however Doctrine states that there will never ever be a chance that an enemy aircraft will be anywhere in the vicinity of us ground army or Marine because the fast movers will blow them out of the sky long before they ever make it into the zip code. The manufacturers were able to put it on the Zulu model as well as they've done so with the older Cobra model only to prove that yes it could be done but it is not a practical Mission requirement. There is zero opportunity that they have to engage in air-to-air because of the Air Force and navy fast movers have a tendency to blow them out of the sky. It is not part of any Attack Helicopters basic load in reality. It will not happen. They just put it on there to show that yeah we can do it and yes it can shoot down airplanes but it's never going to happen.
@@mrgrinch837 One thing: Near-peer conflict. I highly doubt that any force, even the US, has that much control of a battlefield in a near-peer conflict. The statement of your air force comrades might be true in scenarios with a less modern opponent. From the back of my head: The US navy expects to loose two aircraft carriers in the first stages of a war to defend Taiwan against an invasion from mainland China. I highly doubt they can guarantee the safety of every helicopter in an environment ripe with fast movers, missiles, drones and ground or sea-based air defence.
Just learned that the shit hook ( AH47 egg beater ) is the fastest helicopter the USA military ever had. Could float on calm water. Still making them just south of Philly airport.
Some of these comments LOL. Cobra fan boys, please calm your asses down. This dude flew the early model Cobras, and the Army RIGHTFULLY replaced it with a FAR superior Apache. Yes the Marine Corps would down the road develop more advanced versions of the Cobra, but at that point they might as well been an entirely different helicopter. Why would this guy bother talking about those aircraft when they were NOT something he flew nor dealt with? He stuck to the facts that were relevant at the time. I am a former Prowler pilot who later flew Growlers (EA18G). If someone pointed out shortcomings of the legacy hornet during their time vs , say , the Tomcat... It is still valid. The Super Hornet variants we flew were basically a different aircraft and argueably probably shouldn't have even been called a F/A-18. It was 25% larger , different tanks, no traditional speed brakes, more fuel , bigger motors, new radar etc. Someone pointing out the flaws in the Legacy Hornet's is still VERY CORRECT, even if its something fixed or improved on with the Rhino.
MY FRIENDS DAD A SEABEE IN 'NAM. WAS WORKING AND LOOKED OVER A COBRA PILOT. AND HIS GUNNER WERE LOOKING AT HIM..... SO WAS HIS MINIGUN. HE WAS LIKE DON'T TOUCH THE TRIGGER. CHEERS. P.S. READ THE BOOK "APACHE SUNRISE"
The Army doesn't use the Cobra anymore, and the US Marines use the Cobra II, dual engine and now 4 blades.. a bit more redundant.. and it still should be under manufacture ..
Correction. The M134 minigun fired at 2K or 4K rounds per minute for 6 seconds. Then shut down for a few seconds to prevent overheating of the gun barrels. The 3 barrel 20mm version was the ECAS and fired at 750 rounds per minute not the rate you mentioned. The M119 40mm grenade launcher "chunker" fired at 400 rounds per minute. The Apache does not need to keep the target lit with the laser. There is a Lock On After Launch (LOAL) mode that allows the missile to be launched and then you can designate the tgt with the laser. This shortens the enemy detection time of the launch bird as well as the warning time the tgt's laser detectors give.
Latst Cobra "Viper" has four blades and all Cobras have spent more time flying unlike the Longbow hanger queen. lol. though they have worked out many issues it still spends more time being fixed.
Something both aircraft had in common: If they had a full weapons load they couldn't take off with a full tank of fuel. Compromise. The Cobra took 4 men to push and one on the stinger but the Apache took about 10 to push - heavy bastard.
I love how excited he looked when given the question. You know he's really into the subject matter
@6kunio8 Yeah he really likes flying those helicopters.
I love how he's got the prop models ready to go
The big differences:
Cobra was designed as an Infantry support weapon with simple off the shelf components. Over the years the Cobra got upgrades with new technology.
Apache was designed to be part of the Assualt Breaker Project to stop Soviet Armor from going through the Folda Gap. In between the Kia Warrior was developed to scout for attack helicopters. The Appache Longbow was designed to eliminate the need for the Kiawah.
One of our family friends worked on the weapon and sensor systems on all 3.
It's spelled Kiowa.....I was a crewchief on them back in the day.
It's the Fulda Gap, named after the Fulda River. It's the natural border between West and East Germany.
@@postalsharkKiowa a thick skinned Bell 206. Damn congress like’s TOYS 🧸!
Hahaha
@@michaelwallace7972 thank you, I could never spell.
The guy was a pilot...he knows his info...which was current for the time of service. I appreciate his experience and sharing.
I'm glad you liked the interview and I appreciate you acknowledging his experience.
I could listen to this guy stories all day long.
I flew the AH-1W Super Cobra and we had mission profiles that the Apache could not fill and our aircraft were typically up more in the desert environment than the AH-64s. But the newest Cobra, the AH-1Z Viper is way more advanced and faster than all current Apaches.
OUTSTANDING PRESENTATION AND SALUTE TO YOUR SERVICE IM A TERRIBLE TIME.
As my name implies, I spent 20 years as a Cobra Armament Tech. MOS 68J. After retirement I spent a few more years as an OH-58D and AH-64 tech. MIss those days.
This is a real pilot got great experience guts and stories, all of what he says is true. I am an ex ah1g repair man, Vietnam veteran and appreciate videos like this one giving lots of unknown or hard to come by information, We maintenance personnel worked long hrs to keep them flying I remember many long 15 hr or so days repairing and routine maintenance. Also, we had one hundred yards of perimeter to guard so after working long hrs at least 2or3 times a week I often did not sleep at all during nights on guard duty because of not trusting my fellow soldiers to not fall asleep on guard duty more than once I awoke from my turn to sleep a few hrs with my buddy supposed guarding and finding him fast asleep. That used to piss me off to the max. Many of us were draftees, and a lot of draftees had a bad attitude and did not like working hard or doing anything without bitching. There was FTA graffiti all over the place. Sometimes we got mortared, or rocketed by 122milimeter rockets one never knew when of course. We had a lot of problem fighting among ourselves. I remember the MPs pulling up outside at Phu Bai Combat Base manning a m50 on a loudspeaker telling everyone to stay inside the barracks, or they would get shot if coming outside. To stop a riot from starting. My Buddy shot a fellow soldier fighting inside the barrack 6 feet from me after 4 bullets of the m16 passed through his body, 2 of them missing me by and inch and the other 2 by about 6 inches. Amazingly he lived, and the army covered it up because of the rioting here in America the army did want to publicize this at all so not to make the pushback of antiwar rioters here in the states worse. This shooting never even saw a court-martial. My buddy that did the shooting was whisked away, I have no idea where he wound up. This was in Phu Bai Combat Base1970. I gained a lot of experience fixing our cobras, I did everything except engine swaps there was a separate crew for that. I changed rotorblades. once i swapped a transmission without proper tools. changed tailbooms when the got shot up beyond fixing, Drive shafts, Rear rotors, and all kinds of hydraulic lines and pumps. At Hunter army air force base Georgia we had a guy walk into the spinning tail rotor. This was bad. In Vietnam, i had a friend stick his head into a main rotor, stepping up a foot to reach something. He had one quarter of the back of his head missing, The pilots tried to give him cpr, I told them to leave him alone let him die in peace there was no saving him. His heart stopped in a minute or two. i also served in quang tri combat base. And also at Khe Sanh combat base, where our choppers when the army went into Cambodia were needed. At The Khe Sahn one night in heavy fog i was thinking what in the hell is he doing flying tonight, listened to a Huey flying away from the base and all of a sudden the noise got louder and i knew instantly he was going to crash sure as hell he made a circle after taking of mistaking the fog for ground and flew right into the mountain just a hundred yards from me a huge explosion, I had no radio to call the pilot and warn him of hitting the mountain. Flying that dark, foggy night high up in the mountains of north Vietnam was out of the question for a chopper without proper instruments. I am not done but better stop now.
Marines fly Cobra-1Z renamed to the Viper due to new engine, rotor and avionics in the same airframe. Marine Cobra of today is a totally different animal than the modified Huey from Vietnam.
ua-cam.com/video/gdQWC49dKFs/v-deo.html
@watchthe1369 Good to know.
@@watchthe1369 WEEEEE KNOOWWWW
Still doesn't hold a candle the the current Apache unfortunately. But is a great fit for the Corp due to the interchangeability with the Viper UH-1 Huey Command ships.
@@chad59 True it was never developed to take on mass tanks like the Apache. It is more of a GP mobile fire support platform that can break up tank attacks (not obliterate them), bunkers and that stuff.
I love the Super Cobra’s. Those things look mean as hell when they show up from behind a building and start pouring rounds into a house you just told them was giving you a problem. 😅. As a Marine on the ground, that’s a beautiful sight!
I never thought I'd have as much fun, and learn as much while watching a grown msn play with model helicopters.
Fantastic breakdown and great to see the passion behind the pilots who fly these lovely helos
@TAGE_FPV Glad you enjoyed it.
Love the Cobra/Viper & Apache Longbow.
It's really disappointing what happened to the Comanche. That was a stunning machine.
expensively stunning to say the least...
Thank you for your service, Sir, and thank you for sharing the video. This is awesome.
Glad you enjoyed it!
I still remember a pair of Cobras coming in about dusk to take out a VC mortar team. They were over 2km away, but the mini gun was a solid line to the ground, and a steady "grrrrr".
He's comparing a Vietnam era AH-1G cobra to a 1992 longbow Apache, it's not a fair comparison. Apples and oranges. But the AH-1Z to AH-64D is a more practical, comparison being the Zulu has dual engine and four rotor blades, flir laser designator, no 7.62 mm mini gun, no .40 mm mk 19 grenade launcher. But the real comparison is the missions. The Apache is an Army helicopter designed for anti tank with Anti personal capabilities, and the Zulu is a Marine Corp helicopter designed for close air support with an anti armor capability. The "D" apache longbow has a radar and wheels and can carry a soldier strapped to the side for rescue. The Viper has skids and can fight limited self protect air to air with 2 sidewinder missiles. Both can fire hellfire both have dual engines both have 4 blades. so two different birds for two different purposes.
@jeffshriber6120 he very clearly states "the army version was single engine" leaving it open that the early models were a different thing. And that the later Marine corps variants had dual engines.
Either way, the Apache is a superior aircraft.
Ps: the apache, while never really ever used, can carry stingers for air to air.
@UsedToaster again, you didn't kisten to my points and older Vietnam era cobra is no comparison to the latest Apache so it's a moot point and not even a fair comparison, it s not even apples to apples. Your too busy trying to argue. And Its hard to say one is better when the marine corp doesn't need the Apache their sole mission is close air support even the 20 mm is better for that over the 30 mm chaingun. It's a bigger aircraft, in fat it doesn't have folding blades, a universal ground, things a rotor brake things needed for naval operations. Could be incorporated to make a naval variant and probably better from a parts compatability and even training point of view. The stinger is in no way remotely in comparison with the sidewinder. The sidewinder is a true air to air missile. The future is about networked remotely operated attack Helios. Like a dedicated anti tank/ anti personnel fire scout.
@jeffshriber6120 you are too busy crying and slobbering about him comparing the Apache to the very aircraft it replaced. Rather than him bothering talking about a whiskey/zulu/viper Ah-1 that came out decades later than his service.
Why would he bother? He didnt fly those. He DID fly the early cobras that were replaced by the FAR superior Apache.
Nerd
Ofc he compared the choppers he actually flew and could be considered an expert on.
I get your point though.
Love this guy's energy i would love to sit around the campfire with him
The "You can run, but you'll only die tired" slogan came from the AC-130 gunship with IR & LLTV sensors.
The AH Cobra and A10 Thunderbolt have got to be my two favorite CAS aircraft.
I’m a Apache mechanic currently love the aircraft always but I always wish I could work on cobra as well it just seams like a really cool aircraft
I worked on the Cobra till 97. I miss my bird
M230 replica cannon in action: ua-cam.com/video/RX2i-LVgwpE/v-deo.htmlsi=wgrzU-g48WGtPK7j
I got to see the Longbows start at Rucker late 90s and later deployed with them. Loved seeing it going to work. Hope to see it in service for many years to come
I built Apaches from 1983 to 1998 in San Diego for Sub-Contractor Teledyne Ryan Aeronautical, I started on AV001 of the AH64A and finished by building the first 16 Longbows, now almost everyday I get to see AH-1Z Vipers from MCAS fly over my house for training 🇺🇸
Teledyne did not build Apaches. They did optics and armament. Apaches were assembled in Arizona.
Thanks for watching and for sharing your experience building those Apaches!
@@kamikazi99 maybe you should do a little more research kamikazi, Teledyne Ryan Aeronautical built the WHOLE Fuselage including the doors, vertical and horizontal stabilizers and wings from 1983 to 1998 in San Diego, We shipped it on a special holding tool that fit in a Simi-Trailer to McDonnell Douglas in Mesa Arizona before Boeing bought or merged with McDonnell Douglas 🚁
@@normanausen4049 Corrected. Thanks!
I really love this conversation it's really interesting. Take love from Bangladesh.
My Dad served in the 114th Aviation Company in Vietnam, at Vinh Long Air Base.
I enjoy listening to his stories about his time over there.
He told us about how the mini guns and rocket pods on the Cobra’s at night would go out and light’em up.
He said he’d sit on top of his bunker and watch the red line from all the tracer rounds and the buzzing of the mini guns as they were ripping it up out there.
There is a blackhawk shown when he mentioned apache at one point early in the video. At 0:25.
@UsedToaster I have to be honest not exactly sure which photo you are talking about. The images taken were directly from his documentary.
@@reasonsweserve about 0:25 in. Shot of a blackhawk from another (likely) blackhawk.
@@reasonsweserve see below comment
yup saw it too. nothing like talking about the AH-64 and showing a UH-60.
Sorry guys image was taken right from his documentary and we didn't catch it. I'm trying to see if we can edit out that image without screwing up the clip and re-rendering. Nice catch from the community and you all are way more of an expert regarding helicopters than I am.
My calvery unit had 9 of the feared COBRA in vietnam war. HHC. was the air suport unit. They always patroled over the armor unit usually 9 APC's and 4 heavy M-48 Tanks.
Cavalry.
Gary Owen d trp 1st 17th Air Cav 11b2p 82nd Airborne
For those wondering when he says "7.62" he means 7.62x51 NATO, its basically .308 though there are differences like 5.56 is to .223. A lot of people hear 7.62 and imagine an AK round so 7.62x39
Yes we know 7.62x51 nato round, why would anyone(NATO) put a 7.62x39 Soviet round in a plane
@@atsonaga5520 Alot of people don't know that. The clarification is great, especially for newbies who aren't familiar.
O please this gentleman is talking 6-barrel M134 30 caliber (7.62x51) MiniGun first produced by the people who bring good things to light aka General Electric that was mounted on a United States Military Attack Helicopters so the idea that they would be chambered in 30 Russian Short aka 7.62x39 which is a Soviet designed intermediate length bottle neck cartridge round that has questionable ballistics ranges of 300 meters and greater is rather absurd.
@gullreefclub we live in a world where we have put put "caution is hot" on coffee cups and "don't put fingers here" cautions on fans and othe cutting bits. Common sense is not a common thing
He really got to shoot the coolest big automatic guns from some very nice seats.
You can tell he enjoyed his job huh?
I wish he compared the Apache with the current Cobra version the US Marines fly. Great video. I enjoyed the war stories.
Talking to two different Vietnam era Corba pilots and i learned about the sheer amount of missions they did, one after another. Absolutely grueling, but they loved the helicopter. It could rain down firepower.
First time I hear the difference laid down this clear.
@Pouk3D Good to hear. Thanks.
@@Pouk3D thank you pouk, 25 years in the military at least I learned something, glad I could help.
needs to compare RAH-66 and KA-52
@riskinhos agreed that would be interesting. Id like to see maverick to hellfire missile.
The backing-up lights and buzzer are pretty intense on the Cobra.
You know which ones the best? The one that’s my CAS.
He got the G and S models of the AH-1 confused. The S has a flat plexi canopy with a destruct charge in it for escape. There was also an AN/ALQ-144 "disco light" and a huge IR diffuser on the exhaust. He's correct about the rest. It's just not a S in his hands. Small thing.
Doesn't really talk about the changes in Air-Land Battle that came about after the fielding of the new UH-60, Ah-64, an OH-58Ds.
.
My dad was in the Army in the 60s and 70s and saw Hueys and Cobras daily.
The Cobra was a stopgap - What the Army wanted for an Attack Helicopter was the Lockheed AH-56 Cheyenne. That was a rigid rotor compound helicopter (Had wings as well as the rotor), with a pusher propeller as well as the tail rotor, it was fast - so fast the the Army acquired a couple of F-51 Mustangs as chase aircraft for the test program. It had a weapon/sensor loadout as close as the 1860s could provide to an early Apache. But - it was a big, complicated, and expensive beast, and, like any Super High Tech 1960s project exploring new technologies, it was taking longer to develop, and was costing way more than it was expected to. The Army wanted Armed Helicopters that were faster than the Huey and the Chinook, (So that they could escort them without the slicks slowing down so the guns could keep up), So they asked Bell, who'd been playing with the idea of a slimmed-down H-13 (Bell 47) gunship to do the same with the UH-1. Since the dynamic components were the same, and the systems were pretty much off the shelf, Bell was able to develop and field the AH-1 quickly - and it was just what the Army needed - Fast enough, good weapons, and since is used Huey moving parts, Logistics was as simple as Logistics could get. Combat experience in Vietnam showed that the AH-56 was, if anything, too fast, and so it couldn't terrain mask like a Cobra, and that put it smack into the ZSU-23, SA-7 envelope. So, just as they got the bugs out of it in the Early '70s, they cancelled the AH-56, and opened up the design competition that led to the AH-64.
My beloved AH-56. I will never forgive the Air Force for killing it.
Good in-depth discussion of the facts however two things you may not be aware of. The Cheyenne had that pusher propeller which could actually be adjusted for reverse thrust so they could stop that thing on a dime. As well, there was a gunship version of a blackhawk, not at all the lift Black Hawk which exists today but a aircraft design by Sikorsky very similar to the Apache and Cheyenne called the Blackhawk that also did not make it through research and development. Very few people seem to know about that. They got rid of the helicopter but they kept the name and labeled that to the uh-60s aircraft that we know today. As well, I'm a retired Cobra pilot and electronic warfare officer and I can guarantee you this. With all the electronic warfare jammers, chaff and flare dispensers, auto missile tracking etc., that we have on these aircraft it is extremely unlikely that a SAM will take one down. We fly so low that we have a better chance of getting a speeding ticket then getting engaged with a SAM. The missile has to have a clear site picture which means a hot aircraft against a cool sky background and not at all in the trees. Sam's won't work against Attack Helicopters if you're flying them low enough and you have the Jammers working full-time as well as ambient radiation from trees and ground which will obscure the ability for the seeker to be able to decern the helicopter from a clear blue sky. It's extremely unlikely because it's not designed for helicopters flying low, they're designed for fast movers flying high. Kind of like the Russian's flying too damn high. If you ever seen those hits those guys were flying in the stratosphere in comparison to what we do.
Yes, I myself was a EH-60a crewchief. And worked as contracter on AH-64 Apaches in Germany.
Was that a Col. Kilgore figure in the Calvery hat behind him? "Charlie don't surf!!!!!" 😉
I had a good friend named John Bean who flew Hueys in Vietnam over two tours but was murdered by a robber who was robbing the customers in his restaurant called Herbie K's in Shreveport, Louisiana. He was very beloved. We always told him not to fight back if robbed but he had to defend his customers. He was a very good man.
AIT at Fort Rucker. 67 V & S. Aircraft Crew chief/mechanic. 1 1/2 hours front seat time in a Cobra. Maneuvers at Fort Chaffee. Guarded a Blackhawk medivac crash. Worked at Fort Rucker for DynCorp. Worked on the Apache. I feel his excitement 34 years later for me.
I was stationed in south Korea in 78 with the 4/7 air cav, I heard a story about the cobras firing while south Koreans would get under the cobras and try to catch the brass with baskets, one man was under a cobra while it was firing and backing up, the man got killed trying to catch the brass with a basket.
Sounds like SKO
Wow!
@@djoswald9128 probably a farmer
I was at Camp Stanley in C Trp 4/7 Cav the entire year 1985. I was an AH-1 IP and the Koreans would definitely show up within minutes of us firing on the range to catch/collect the brass from the 20mm. Baskets, aprons, you name it. All ages of people. Most of the brass trinkets bought in the ville were from AH brass. Once they started showing up we'd have to move away to avoid potential injury to them, so often the range time was reduced. BTW the rate of fire for the 20mm on the AH-1 is 730 +/- 50.....not 6000.
@@michaelguyer3693 I was at camp Gary Owens headquarters troop 78-79
I was hoping you were gonna compare the AH-64D and the AH-1Z because they're the most comparable.
Next time.
I see a mighty-fine US Customs badge in the background. I got one of those too.
@tacticaldave1 Good eye.
@@reasonsweserve HSI here. 20 years, two months and two weeks. 5,700 hours as a pipeline pilot before all that. Good channel!
@Tacticaldave1 Thanks and thanks for watching.
Great storyteller.
Glad you enjoyed it
Can you do a comp between the Marine Corp Version vs Apache
@anpan If I get back or interview another pilot. All these interviews are done in person and the pilot I interviewed lived in Texas.
It depends on the versions. Both have had many improvements over time.
@ right. I’m interested in a comp between the most advanced version of the viper vs advanced version of the Apache. Also some pros and cons why you might go with one over the other (maintenance requirement) I know the Czech got the viper as combo with the advanced Huey because of parts commonality and probably lower cost. Plus the viper has a navalized version that can operate off ships.
Does any of you know where to purchase these two helicopter model kits? I'd like to add them to my collection.
Thanks!
His watch is cool , anyone know what it is ?
The contrast between the Cobra's simplicity and the Apache's tech evolution is incredible. Learning how the Cobra's slim design made it so feared and how the Apache's advanced systems changed the game makes this a must-watch for any military enthusiast. What's your favorite feature of these iconic helicopters?
Being a marine who served in both iraq and Afghanistan I can say a cobra on scene was 2nd best only to the A10. I have nothing but respect for my airwing brother and sisters.
Regardless of any other things, the AH-64 Apache is still primarily designed to engage and kill hard targets like enemy armor, it can do close air support, with Hell-fires (Expensive) and 2,75 rocket pods as well as the 30MM Chain gun. The most modernized version of the H-1 Cobra, the AH-1Z and it's prior model the AH-1W were primarily for close air support in support of ground troops, with the ability to engage and kill harder targets such as armor. The Targeting electronics and vision system on the AH-1Z are an order of magnitude better than the ones on the Apache. The USMC versions of the Cobra were better than the US Army version way back in the 1980's, when the Army was flying Mostly S models then replaced by the AH-1F, the USMC had the Ah-1J and AH-1T, later replaced by the AH-1W, now AH-1Z. Both Helicopters are very very good at close air support and killing enemy armor and hard targets like bunkers or even an entire floor of a building. And even now both current models of those Helicopters are vastly better than anything an enemy can put up against them in a fight.
Thank you for the breakdown and tuning in! I appreciate it.
Recon optics are scary.
I flew border trace in a cobra when cw1 got sick in germany 79
2/2 ACR
What a trip
My father was a helicopter gunship pilot in Vietnam 👇 ua-cam.com/video/9SjeDc8LGAk/v-deo.htmlsi=RQq7UNnQ_-RTK2iX
@jamespiccone Thanks for sharing.
Maybe you can answer a question I've had. Helicopters are by nature loud. I'm sure they have gotten quieter since the Hueys in Nam but I've noticed the vast majority of enemy about to be engaged have no idea untill rounds start impacting around them , too late for most. How far are rounds from chain gun ( 30 mm ) effective and how far away would a bird have to be not to be heard?
Thanks
@sammylacks4937 I'm hoping one of the helicopter experts can weigh in here.
Well, sound is a funny thing. I've had helos "sneek up" on me when standing on a flight line. When it comes to rotor noise, the majority of it comes from the turbulence off the main and tail rotor impacting eachother. When going from 2 to 4 blade designs, (greater lift) the sound isn't softer, just more rapid. "Woop woop woop," to "pop pop pop." Newer blades have a slight "S" shape to the edges to help reduce noise. The one Big design change is "NOTAR" from Boing. It moves the tail rotor to the main body and ducts the air down the tail boom, eliminating the conflicting turbulence. It works so well, I've stood 10 feet away from the damn thing without ear protection. Its just a loud "buzz." It's practically soundless at just a couple hundred feet!
I’d wager that a compounding factor is that if a gunship is called in to shoot at you, you’re almost certainly already in a gunfight and thus surrounded by already quite loud explosions, you may well not hear a helicopter over that din
If the pilot is feathering the blades and they are properly in track and balance, you'll barely hear a blackhawk's blades. Interestingly, the US coast guard intentionally brings their blackhawks out of track & balance to make sure people hear the "wop wop" coming from as far away as possible. (makes me cringe when I hear them, that's 15 minutes loiter time in wasted fuel a flight and an extra set of blades a year.)
At one end, you'll hear the turbines and the wind of the rotor wash in the vegitation before you hear the rotors, at the other end you'll hear the same bird fighting for altitude with a heavy load from 12 miles away - depends on what the pilot's doing with the sticks. (generally, the more "lift" you ask of the rotor blades, the louder she's going to "wop wop".)
I'll let an Apache guy talk about chin guns.
Noise suppression is a function of altitude, ground interference, and wind direction. Effective range of the 30mm is approximately 3 kilometers. It doesn't have to be really accurate since it's firing, HE rounds.
Marine helicopters were first to land in Grenada during Operation Urgent Fury.
My stepfather was a mechanical engineer at Martin on the TADS/PNVS in the early 80's. I was in the military at the time and I remember him telling me what he could (unclassified) about the capability of the system and at the time it sounded like science fiction. He later worked for NASA on the shuttle program, sadly he was put out to pasture the moment the final shuttle left the launch pad (job well done! here's your pink slip).
HOOAH! Love your blue ribbon 🫡
I'm just here to admire the scale models
Surely a better comparison is Apache Vs Viper, they're at least the same age and technology.....?
@davidhauton Probably
Apache of comparable version is superior in capabilities. However AH-1 shares components with the UH-1 which is probably the main reason why the USMC kept it. Limited space aboard amphib fleet vessels encouraged sharing parts storage when feasible. As the UH-1 is phased out there will be an opportunity to switch to a different attack helicopter. Personally I think that they should choose a navalized SB-1 Defiant and an attack helicopter based on the same parts.
I'm a simple person and I think in simple terms:
The Apache reflects how the Army is,stand back pound the enemy with technology.
The Colbra reflects on how the Marine Coprs are, in the enemies face with a boot knife.
Good comparison 👍
The real thing i want to know is what the pro and cons of the landing gear of the cobra and apache
@lenkautsugi I’m sure someone commenting here is going to know the answer.
Having wheels on a helicopter lets you do running takeoffs. This is where you do a run just like an airplane for short distance and then take off. This uses less fuel, lets the copter lift more payload. Also handy to taxi around the ground.
Gear is also handy for any hard landings to take some of the force of impact that would otherwise be transferred to the pilots. Combat aircraft are expected to be in hard use that could wear out components more quickly and may also take damage from enemy actions, either of which could create a situation that could force some hard landings. Apache is definitely more survivable in a hard landing, in part due to the gear instead of skids.
Skids on the other hand are cheaper, simpler, lighter, and require less maintenance than gear. Which are also desirable characteristics.
How about the Zulu Cobra????
Both very capable bits of kit. Shame they compete for the same design utility.
The cobra anytime you need to upgrade it just switch out the engine. The Apache is like sports car, it spends more time in the shop than in the air
Just want to recap, the main difference is one was purpose built and one was made quickly out of spare parts because they needed something quick. Obviously that is only talking about when they were first introduced, now both have roughly the same job and the technology is the only real difference. It all depends on the branch now since the Army retired the last Cobras in 1999 and are only used by the Marines and only the Army uses the Apache. Current units prices even have them pretty close since the Apache is roughly $52 million for the E variant and Bell has upgraded the Cobra to the AH-1Z Viper which is around $50 million.
Fun fact: the Cobra shared exactly zero drive train components with the Huey.
From my experience, Cobras are used for FOB protection and local air recon. Apaches are used for assault. I was in Ramadi in the early 2000's. I'm sure the uses vary though.
The title mislead me. I wanted to hear about the different control systems and handling. It has none of that. Mostly focused on the weapons and sighting. But the later versions of the Cobra had much of the same systems.
I love the Cobra! In fact, I've loved it since my G.I.Joe days of the 80's. I remember the first GIJoe helicopter was THIS one, albeit named a bit differently (specifically as the Dragonfly AH-1X) as to not "offend" any current or past veterans and friends of the Cobra gunship. It came with the pilot figure "Wild Bill" who could sit in either cockpit position (knowledgeable kids knew the pilot flew in the BACK and the gunner was in the FRONT) and was armed with removeable missiles and bombs, had a rotating and moveable nose gun and grenade launcher, could have up to two figures transported (externally) one each landing skid, but best of all, if you held the helicopter in your right hand, there was a moveable thumb sliding switch that if slid left with a little effort, would generate the power from the kid's thumb into mechanical motion to turn the main copter blades. The blade moving switch reset immediately and one could effectively spin the blades faster and faster, with no lift unfortunately, but STILL, it was quite imaginative of Hasbro to create a working spinning battle-ready helicopter that paid tribute to the legendary Army air cavalry gunship. How I miss that chopper! I loved it so much I ended up with two of them, and even had their spinoff "tiger force" version (from Sears)! Long live GIJoe!
But a big salute and thank you to the presenter in this video for his most immersive discussion about this awesome air platform! I already knew plenty about this helicopter from many talks with former pilots and crewmembers, but nothing beats the experience and knowledge of actually flying and fixing this beast of the air and force equalizer
The ultimate woulf be to have a Cobra able to be owned by non-military for personal use. Always liked the way it looks.
The real difference is decades of technology improvement
Not Really, their First Flights were only about 10yrs apart.
I do note he did not compare the AH-1z Viper to the AH-64 Longbow. That would be an interesting and better comparison.
Cobra, 2 engines and four blades and totally badass. SFMF 😊
Were you stationed in Fulda?
@billygentry001 I'm not sure but here is his full interview here. ua-cam.com/video/bIZVMvOdGRs/v-deo.html You can also watch his documentary on Amazon Prime called Above the Best and his book is called South of Heaven My Year in Afghanistan. I'm sure between the three you may find your answer. I just can't fully remember what he said during his interview as far as where he was stationed.
The Cobra sight us called a TSU. TOW is wire guided. Hellfire is laser guided. Apache has hovered hold, so the helicopter stay put during firing.
The Conra is a more in your face type weapon, where as the Apatche has more standoff capabilities. Example, when you're engaging a tank with a TOW missle you have to have line of sight with the target and hold it for 21.5 seconds as the missile goes down range to the target, also you have to be within about 2k meters, not so with the Apatche. You don't enen have to see the target, just have someone else designate it with a lazer and send the missile down range. The Cobra was good at what it was designed for, the Aparche just took it to the next level. One minor point, the mini gun on the Cobra was not set up to fire 6k rounds a min. It was capable of that 14:40 but not set up to fire that many. Only about 4.8 k rounds a minute. Also the 20mm would only fire about 750 rounds per minute not 2k. (I'm doing those nubers by memory and its been almost 40 years since I flew them. I do miss thise days though. The men I was associated with and flying the Cobra will never be replicated...
The SNAKE was a UH-1b that Bell took a saw-zall to the cabin’s deck.
A very practical and straightforward mod.
But Never saw a flight demo as the birds came apart transiting to Fritchie AAF on a couple attempts;
DID see six brand new UH-1gs wrecked strapped to flatbeds that ran off the road
on the way to SHARP ARMY DEPOT !!! heading to the old French Colony - Mitchell Rubber Plantation !! some where in Asia !
I was curious about the horsepower of the apache. o well good vid.
I hated it when the USAF got rid of Warrant Officers.
You can tell he had a blast. Or several thousand per minute.
Why not compare the latest version of each? The comparison he is making is not fair because there are many years between them
This is what he flew, if you watch the full interview I’m asking him about his experience.
Then the tittle of the video should be different because its misleading and borderline clickbait. I want to know the difference between the two helicopters now not a comparison of old verses new. I think many people that watched this video had the same feelings as I do.
The Apache can control the battlefield. The Cobra can punch through obstacles for the ground troops.
Why couldn't the Cobra also control the battlefield?
And why can't Apaches "punch through obstacles"?
@@rogerthat4545 The Apache has more advanced sensors that can detect and track both vehicles and gunfire while being able to see human sized targets from 3,000 meters away at night. It can take this information and pass it off to others in real time while collecting data from others using data transfer and video feeds. Apaches can also control drones from over 100 miles away. Six Apaches (one squadron) can destroy up to 96 vehicles in under 3 minutes with only one spotter. Popular Mechanics claimed that in 2007 Iraq, the Apache claimed 78% of all enemies killed with less than 200 Apaches in the country.
The Cobra has to see the targets or get information over the radio. They can only attack targets one at a time. They stay near the infantry and are constantly doing CAS missions.
@@orlock20 that's not what I asked
@@rogerthat4545 Like I said, the Cobra doesn't have enough sensors to control the battlefield. They can only handle one target at a time while the Apaches can at least track all the visible targets on the battlefield in real time. This limits the Cobra to close up CAS missions.
@orlock20 Both aircraft have been upgraded.
But I wouldn't tell that to a cobra pilot
I'm only a minute in so I have no idea where he's going to go on his thoughts. BUT, I am curious as to why you're not using the 1Z as an example, because there is a slight difference. Or big difference. Probably big difference, but I'v never flown one so I'll defer to the experts.
EDIT: I pretty much knew where he was going to go and I don't even tyhink an expert would argue. That he flew the Cobra and it obviously shows that he really liked it at least showed respect for the Apaches elder. Gotta respect the respect.
But, my eyes are going to shit so I know that I'd get my ass handed to me in either machine, so that means that I'm taking the 1Z because it looks way cooler and, true or not, I believe that rotor head on the 1Z is gonna give me a slight advantage, which will hopefully let me get a few extra seconds to kiss my ass goodbye before I become a flaming lawn dart.
The Cobra has been a four rotor aircraft for a number of years now. The Army version has been in the boneyard for decades. Current version is the AH-1Z.
It never occurred to me that their were actual metal rods attached to the gunner's helmet to control the direction of the gun. How analog.
Cobra pilots Save the lives of numerous ground pounders
I was an ARP at Fort Liberty in 1974 D troop 1st 17th Air Cav we had more helicopters than any unit we had had Cobras, those pilots were awesome
What about the Cheyenne?
As the one commenter already mentioned he is comparing a Vietnam Era mod s Cobra with an AH-64D model. NOBODY who was recently flying Mod S Cobras came back to "Mother Rucker" to the fly 64D models. If memory serves me right, the last unit to turn in Cobras was the aviation unit in Hawaii in 99. So take what this guy says with a very large grain of salt. Or, like me, discount everything he says as unreliable. As when he states that the 64D model had a HUD (heads up display). Not even the alpha model 64 had a HUD. All symbology was visible through the IHADSS. The Cobra had a HUD. Get better SMEs for your interviews.
The fact he flew both tells me he is a SME.
How do you know?
I'll give a different comparison. I was a AH-1 crewchief (67-Y) and was there when these great new Apaches were coming out. The only thing, and I mean the ONLY thing the Apache coud do is get PBS on the screen. They were such a pile of 💩. The vent louvers opened skyward. Every time it rained the electronics compartments flooded. WTF is that?? Meanwhile, the Cobras were flying multi sorties every day. While I was in Korea, sometimes 3 or 4 flights every day. And a crewchief had 2 birds. Preflight, postflight, scheduled maintenance, and dailies on 2 birds. And we kept them flying. Day after day, month after month. Meanwhile the 'superior' Apaches sat. Grounded. Useless.
Now THAT is a comparison of the 2 helicopters at the same time frame. Not the latest gen Apache vs. a Vietnam 1st gen Cobra. Even today, I would 100% take the latest Cobra (now called Viper) the Marines fly over the Apache. Other than a 20mm chaingun vs. a 25mm, the Cobra is a better choice. They both carry the exact same armaments. But one will keep flying day after day.
His comparison is 40 years out of date when compared to the current AH-1Z Viper, which has more capability than the AH-64 in certain aspects. Current modifications upgrade the A2A capability from AIM-9L to AIM-9X and AMRAAM, the Apache cannot carry these. The AH-1Z also carries APKWS upgraded 2.75” rockets with precision guided A2G and A2A capability, a program the army didn’t buy into.
@kmrtnsn why would he bother? He is sticking to what he knows. You people need to get over that.
It would be like someone trashing the legacy hornet vs the Super Hornet (Rhino). Its still VALID.
Apaches have test fired sidewinders but the Army won’t equip them due to Key West agreement. Apaches have also fired APKWS in Afghanistan.
His Apache experience is also out of date now. It has improved a great deal in recent decades. They can fire some missiles dozens of miles away now, beyond the range of MANPADS. They have numerous other improvements but I don’t know which ones are okay to talk about so I will leave it at that. He was just speaking about his own experience anyways, not a comparison between current versions.
I'm a retired Cobra pilot and I've had this discussion with other people. Yes, the Zulu model can fire air-to-air missiles however Doctrine states that there will never ever be a chance that an enemy aircraft will be anywhere in the vicinity of us ground army or Marine because the fast movers will blow them out of the sky long before they ever make it into the zip code. The manufacturers were able to put it on the Zulu model as well as they've done so with the older Cobra model only to prove that yes it could be done but it is not a practical Mission requirement. There is zero opportunity that they have to engage in air-to-air because of the Air Force and navy fast movers have a tendency to blow them out of the sky. It is not part of any Attack Helicopters basic load in reality. It will not happen. They just put it on there to show that yeah we can do it and yes it can shoot down airplanes but it's never going to happen.
@@mrgrinch837 One thing: Near-peer conflict. I highly doubt that any force, even the US, has that much control of a battlefield in a near-peer conflict.
The statement of your air force comrades might be true in scenarios with a less modern opponent.
From the back of my head: The US navy expects to loose two aircraft carriers in the first stages of a war to defend Taiwan against an invasion from mainland China.
I highly doubt they can guarantee the safety of every helicopter in an environment ripe with fast movers, missiles, drones and ground or sea-based air defence.
LOVE the Cobra Zulu....
Here's a replica of a Cobra M197 gun and the Telescopic Sight Unit in action: ua-cam.com/video/iXk2jvlPSQA/v-deo.htmlsi=rhQffbshNjUql7zJ
Just learned that the shit hook ( AH47 egg beater ) is the fastest helicopter the USA military ever had. Could float on calm water. Still making them just south of Philly airport.
Some of these comments LOL. Cobra fan boys, please calm your asses down. This dude flew the early model Cobras, and the Army RIGHTFULLY replaced it with a FAR superior Apache. Yes the Marine Corps would down the road develop more advanced versions of the Cobra, but at that point they might as well been an entirely different helicopter. Why would this guy bother talking about those aircraft when they were NOT something he flew nor dealt with? He stuck to the facts that were relevant at the time.
I am a former Prowler pilot who later flew Growlers (EA18G). If someone pointed out shortcomings of the legacy hornet during their time vs , say , the Tomcat... It is still valid. The Super Hornet variants we flew were basically a different aircraft and argueably probably shouldn't have even been called a F/A-18. It was 25% larger , different tanks, no traditional speed brakes, more fuel , bigger motors, new radar etc. Someone pointing out the flaws in the Legacy Hornet's is still VERY CORRECT, even if its something fixed or improved on with the Rhino.
@UsedToaster Thank you.
00:26 "...and this is the Apache." (shows photo of a UH-60 Blackhawk) 🧐
@jason Thanks it has already been pointed out. The footage was taken directly from his documentary and it was not meant to be to confuse you.
MY FRIENDS DAD A SEABEE IN 'NAM. WAS WORKING AND LOOKED OVER A COBRA PILOT. AND HIS GUNNER WERE LOOKING AT HIM..... SO WAS HIS MINIGUN. HE WAS LIKE DON'T TOUCH THE TRIGGER. CHEERS. P.S. READ THE BOOK
"APACHE SUNRISE"
The Army doesn't use the Cobra anymore, and the US Marines use the Cobra II, dual engine and now 4 blades.. a bit more redundant.. and it still should be under manufacture ..
Good to know
They are both very different now from the earlier years.
Isn’t AH-64E Guardian the latest?
Yes but there are also upgrade packages available even from the AH-64E baseline now.
Good question.
Cobra has a better rotor sound and a cooler name 🐍
Both are just bad ass and cool!!!!
Correction. The M134 minigun fired at 2K or 4K rounds per minute for 6 seconds. Then shut down for a few seconds to prevent overheating of the gun barrels. The 3 barrel 20mm version was the ECAS and fired at 750 rounds per minute not the rate you mentioned. The M119 40mm grenade launcher "chunker" fired at 400 rounds per minute. The Apache does not need to keep the target lit with the laser. There is a Lock On After Launch (LOAL) mode that allows the missile to be launched and then you can designate the tgt with the laser. This shortens the enemy detection time of the launch bird as well as the warning time the tgt's laser detectors give.
@scgrigsby Thanks for the explanation. Way too far out of my expertise.
A TOW on a helicopter sounds dangerous af to me
Latst Cobra "Viper" has four blades and all Cobras have spent more time flying unlike the Longbow hanger queen. lol. though they have worked out many issues it still spends more time being fixed.
Something both aircraft had in common: If they had a full weapons load they couldn't take off with a full tank of fuel. Compromise. The Cobra took 4 men to push and one on the stinger but the Apache took about 10 to push - heavy bastard.