Seraphon Battletome Review - Warhammer Weekly 05032023
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- Опубліковано 27 тра 2024
- Join us for another week of news, rumors and all things Warhammering! This week, we are breaking down the new Seraphon battletome. So what do the new lizards bring to the table? Have the stars aligned to bring us a good book or do the portents spell doom? Let's jump in our Battletoad Gothic ship and find out.
#warhammer #ageofsigmar
0:00 News
21:30 Pick of the Week
27:00 Hobby Time
32:30 Seraphon
40:25 Allegiance
1:44:10 Warscrolls
3:27:05 Lists
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1:19:40 now i cant get the image of vince furiously throwing metal saurus at the intruder while yelling "i got 90 of these, come and get it!"
Huge congratulations on painting an army Tyler!
Glad it’s opened up a new part of the hobby for you
I cannot tell you how good that BEEG PEEG is. It solves every single problem and question I've ever had in life. I'll not be happy until I have 3 and I run my list of double Mawkrusha and 3 Big Pigs.
I didn't even play WHFB and when I heard the phrase 'We're beginning our End Times' I felt all of my skin convulse at once. Excellent trolling Vince...
I’ll go there: this book is absolutely cooked. Kroaks points are just madness, how did they come to that conclusion?
The powerlevel of this book, combined with the fact that most top players still have this army, it’ll shoot to the top of them meta within the first 2 months.
Lovely review again❤ thanks!
While you’re right, Kroak is absolutely nuts when the eventual pints increase comes this book will become average fast
Hot Take : it’s a copy paste of the old book pre Kroak nerf, most lists will stick to skink units (including new mele cav),the Kroak combo and you will be summoning a lot.
Saurus warriors are good but unfortunately kroxigors and new saurus cav have janky rules and very situational, while monsters are just not good.
I really get so annoyed with all of the stuff that's wholly within "X" range vs stuff that is within "X" range. The inconsistency is so annoying and leads to errors and slowdowns in play. My opponent tells me the range and I have to ask "Is that within or wholly within?" Then they have to go back and check ect. Buffs should all be wholly within, things that target enemies should be within the range.
That could make things easier. Even if it was an odd number like 13 inches if they were all wholly within I could see that speeding up play.
Yes. That would be great. Make things so much easier to remember
On the article with the cloak it mentions “Bog Standard” cloak and a smell of sulphur. Likely KB.
I am definitely on team Tyler when it comes to base edges: Brown, not black!
It is a bit frustrating to see that this battletome gave some of the coolest minis like Aggradons, Kroigors (not sure if I spelled that correctly) and some of the big dinos questionable rules or flat out bad points costs. Also, a couple other sloppy, weird or overused rules in this book. I am definitely afraid of that mortal wound bomb that Starbound can do.
Big Ironjawz pig has me looking at that army... oh I missed that it makes different things. If the hero makes those battleline I am 100% in!
"Bahahaha, I mean skinks suck" - Cass
Cass Has Spoken.
Would love to see scaly skin as something like "+1 to armor saves" like an endless mystic shield.
While we're at it make Starborne ethereal with a 6+ ward. I'd like them to be different styles.
I'm not really sure what kind of list Kroxigors are supposed to go in. They get buffed by being coalesced, but their abilities trigger off of skinks. Seems like an identity crisis. They could have made the warspawned trigger off coalesced and the Kroxigors synergize with skinks.
for the scar vet on carnosaur, since it's at the end of the combat phase, it also means if it's vince's way, other units doing damage to the enemy units help the number of dice thrown
Spawn of Chotec is literally the old Cygor shooting profile for the exact same points. They put enough icing on it to make it seem interesting and I love that.
Mind blown by the new iron jaws model. Couldn't be more excited.
Biggest mistake in the book. Starborne and Coalesced should have different points, either both halves are paying the summoning tax or neither of them are and the summoning is actually wildly good.
agreed. Units perform significantly different depending on the subfaction in this book.
Overall it seems that especially monsters and Kroxies need a 20-30% points decrease.
Thanks for the show guys and for giving us the rundown. I'm not massive into Seraphon myself. They have some very cool looking models but in game terms all I care for and need to know is how to give them a good beat down! ;p haha.
Great show, as always. I disagree with the notion of this being a step in the road to higher power - this feels like a definite step down from Soulblight and OBR to me. Go up and down the roster, and you'll find that the army almost exclusively relies on magic to do enough damage to win, especially with how watered-down the shooting aspect of the book is now. Skink Starborne are still going to be played a bunch, I'm thrilled to see the Saurus glow-up (though I find the Kroxigor deeply underwhelming), and the summoning is conditionally powerful, but to be honest, I don't see this army as a major force in the meta going forward. Of course, I could be wrong, but something beyond the builds discussed in the early going will have to emerge for it to happen in my opinion. The early battle reports have shown that it is really good at throwing out chip damage everywhere, but it struggles to concentrate enough force to actually get units off the table, and if it's not dead, it's still a threat.
Yeah I suspect this is right. Outside of the MW spam Starborne builds, which can face hard counters now, it feels like a first half 3.0 battletome. Generally those books were of a similar, and largely reasonable, power level, whereas some of the more recent tomes have often felt different and, well, less reasonable.
yes old book had lowest winrate. and this one removed every buff we had, with same or worst scrolls and everything cost more... dont need to be a genious to see this book is really bad, besides kroak of course, thats the only thing on book that can keep it outside lowest positions.
but still haters come claiming how broken book is, since seraphons are always op!!! despite i show them numbers with them as weakest army for last 6 months, but still who cares, they are op!! because they are always lol
Time will tell, I see it as a question on one side of how the magic shakes out, but its still a synergistic army with some potential, I think it has real power, but I guess we'll see, happy to be wrong and see it end at something like 50% on the nose.
There's so many instances of overly complex rules for very mediocre payoff (EotG, warspawned krox, aggrodon rage, etc). The enhancement section is also very lackluster, unlike recent tomes. There's a few good choices but most of it is trash
Just got the army box. This video was very helpful!
Tears for the Old Ones! Let the tears flow! All the Seraphon nerfs just made dedicated Seraphon players canny as a Skink priest. Going to be literally buckets and barrels of tears from Facehammer channel. Looking forward to enough tears to fill up all those barrels the hobbits rode to Esgaroth in the coming months!
I wanted to ask, because I recently rewatched the "new year, new army" warhammer weekly, whether your opinions had changed regarding seraphon. In that you guys described seraphon as being one of the harder armies to play. How does this book change that? Also I wanted to know if you guys thought that the newest seraphon box was worth it? I'm a bit interested in getting into sigmar but I'm still very much on the fence. Cheers!
It is not as hard as it used to be for sure.
I was all set to head off to Old World full on but two resin foot characters, no army box. Feels like they are killing it before it starts.
Yes, much easier than before, but I still don't think I would recommend it for a new person.
@@jamielaing5244 Seems like missteps out of the gate to me as well. I guess we can just wait and see, maybe GW will surprise us.
Wounds allocated is, currently allocated, what's the number on the dice beside the monster.
At no point in the scar vet rule does it say Wounds allocated by that model.
It eats beat up monsters
I'm sure the FAQ will answer the question. :)
I think the "x" in seraphon stuff should be pronounced "sh". That's typically how the letter is pronounced in mesoamerican words, like Xibalaba. So "itxi grubs" would sound like "itchy grubs"
thx for the info! :)
Kroshigors.
thx guys, Great discussion! regarding the OBR chair, clearly it must be a sentient mount as that guy is a loremaster and the slann is just sitting there on his rock with little to show for it! clearly that explains the difference in the skeleton dude knowing all the spells (it's really the mount 🤫)
I've played 2x3 Aggradons. They did exactly nothing but die to Stormcast Vindictors... it was depressing (they did 1 damage.. yeah)
New player here... regarding the Drain Magic conundrum you mentioned, couldn't the dispel refer to endless spells previously cast?
Perhaps, I believe this has been answered though fortunately at this point.
it is so annoying that kroxigor can only get buffs in coalesced but need skink units to get there commands which we won't probably be using.
I'm trying to build a starborne skylizard list with a lot of CP generation. Ripperdactyls (with the chief) seem crazy in terms of cosmic point efficiency
I kinda like the 2+ mortals on the terradons too
5:11 .. wasnt the other way around? i think they said no starter box but a launch box maybe
That could be.
Great review as always and with Ridge and Anthony so even better!
I have to say I'm disappointed with the Seraphon book: I was really excited to start the army after Sylvaneth and after quite a few games on TTS I have to recognize it's not for me.
I think it's too one-dimensional for my taste, Starborne only does damage in the hero phase and Coalesced is insane against damage 2 and useless against everything else (obviously exagerated here but you get the idea). There are a lot of good things in the book and I think it'll do well (although I don't think it'll be a top army, too many bad matchups), but I haven't had fun playing with it.
I believe the book would've been much more interesting/fun to play with and against if Kroak didn't have his warscroll spell and units had better damage in exchange (Kroxigors and Spawn of Chotec for instance).
I think the gag with the grubs is supposed to be "itchy" grubs. From all the sources I've heard, we in the UK pronounce Mesoamerican X's as "sh".
Quick question: how do the saurus guard get the ward after pass? The bodyguard allocates wounds and wars save happens before wound allocation
It restarts the cycle for the new model
General
Oldblood on Carnosaur
Heroes
Slann
Saurus Astrolith Bearer
Scar-Vet on Aggradon
Battleline
6 Aggradon Lancers
20 Saurus Warriors
10 Saurus Warriors
Endless Spell
Ravenaks Gnashing Jaws
Theres is your NO Skink list :D
If Tyler needs to paint a box of skinks, would a Skink starseer count? It comes in a box and hasthe keyword.
I like where your head’s at!
The fix is the same as for stoneguard. If your damage is too high it stops working ;)
No mercy for ogres
Great show and review of the new battletome! Thanks guys!
Yeah I'm also not excited about the Old World models and the re-release of 20+ year old kits. I don't understand why GW isn't updating any of the popular old kits. Is the cost for design and plastic molds really that much effort?
Currently GW is also releasing some more niche products in plastic. E.g., I would imagine the cost of development and molds for new plastics Bretonnian knights should be about the same as any Warcry warband, but I'd guess that new Bretonnian knights would outsell any Warcry product.
100 likes for Anthony❤
After some digestion on the read and listening to the thoughts posfed here, this book feels like it did not get enough time in the oven.
Internal balance looks to have fallen short of 3.0 standards; you folks mentioned the monsters however the dino air force feels lacking, the cavalry and monstrous infantry have unneeded gimmicks to their combat performance. Makes me wonder how much consequences are around due to the summoning engine.
Vince, in reviews going forward, might there be a chance unit archetypes in the book are included in the overview a little bit? I was surprised not much centered discussion was around the loss of priests and the priest archetype when this army would used the aplenty.
Sure, I did talk about roles some, I don't think they ever really needed priests (I was glad to see them cut, this army had a classic "us as well" problem, where they could just do *everything* and I think in the end, it was good they scaled some of that back. But I can see what we can do in centering that up.
@@VinceVenturella It definitely was talked about, it might be that I'm overstating how impactful it was that they lost the archetype! Appreciate the reply, can't wait for next week
YES - I AM EXCITED ABOUT THIS TOMB KING. ITS OK RIDGE, I STILL LOVE YOU. Xoxox TYLER Ps. Shouts to GW for honouring the classic 90s WB cartoon Freakazoid™️ with the skin choice. Bold homage.
Vince, what’s better for Saurus: Clubs or spears? Thank you kindly.
I'm a clubs man for sure.
@@VinceVenturella thanks, Vince!
Time to show that Army Tyler ;)
I'd be interested to know how you think Khorne, Ossiarch, Soulblight and Seraphon have shifted on your psychographic profiles chart with their book releases.
I'm thinking Khorne has increased Timmy
Ossiarch has fulfilled it's spike potential
Soulblight and Seraphon I'm not so sure...
I think you're dead on, I think SBG has gone more Johnny (it's Timmy got weaker) and Seraphon is pure Johnny/Spike I think.
I like the Kroxigor model so much why aren't they better?
A question we all ask.
If it's 13 models, if #13 isn't skaven we riot
Coalesced is my home as well and I like a lot of the changes, especially the new warriors, but what they did to the steggadons is appaling. They basically copy pasted the warscroll. That scroll has 2 attack profiles that are exactly the same. why not just combine them into one? It really is a pitty.
Agreed with the aggradon rage rule. How did noone see the non bo there? They really need a developper
Why is a BT 330 and a Carno 285... a teeth Dino flat 5 dmg and a Big so called Mighy Axe of the God of Rage is ...d3... it hurts my soul.😢
I hate -1 damage as well. It’s really punishing to select models and it just makes things feel less fun
100 more likes for Tyler finishing his army 🎉🎉
On the Aggradon Primal Rage - I like it, it just shouldn't reset.. They should get more and more bloodthirsty throughout the battle as long as the live. Perfectly with the theme and semi unique. Another fix could be have them count as in combat within 6" and pile in 6".
How it actually works its a nothing burger, sadly 😢
Love the review. I was really hoping for a discussion on bite rolls. Could you comment on when you think bite rolls take place? Do you roll for bites before or after models are removed from damage allocated in combat? I have seen a lot of debate about whether bites will do anything at all if the opponent removes models from their front rank, because there will be nothing within 1". Maybe it will get an FAQ but interested to hear your thoughts.
It says after attacks have been resolved. 13.3.1 States this is after all the attacks have been made add up damage and allocate it to models. So it would be after that step allowing your opponent to pull out of bite range.
Yes, what Jack said.
Somebody think of the Ogres!
Is that Tom Segura? He really does do a lot of podcasts!
I'm just like 15 mins in, listening to the starborne stuff and already I can just tell I'm going to hate playing against that crap again, reminds me of the last book where you just got blasted off the table, how on heck should it be considered fun a good portion of your army is just removed with basically no effort... I just don't get it.
What is this, dinosaur hate. I really liked the lizards 15 years ago, but now they were horribly out of date. And damn this update. Don't even care about the rules.
(New tyranids looking really tasty too)
The rundown.
New Bretonian Paladin aka: my next Dn'D character.
Tomb King Guy is here for the participation award whilst pointing angrily in homage to old rulebook art.
Regimens of Renowned aka, "How much old stock can we shift on the back of new sculpts?"
Cities of Bojangles: Friendship is Double Casting.
Vince's weekly prediction of Skaven dominance.
Everyone loves pulled pork.
FEC's big model update. AKA: Warcry best chance for vampirates outside of IDK.
Handpicked for your consideration.
**Who Killed Captain Alex VJ voice** Dinosauuurs.
+1 for the Who Killed Captain Alex reference! 🤣 EVERYONE IN DA MORTAL REALMS KNOWS KUNG FU!
@@thebryceroy6155 da wargame is on!
@@briochepanda WARGAME! WARGAME! WARGAME!
Solid rundown.
👍👍
Why do you pronounce "kroxigor" like it's spelled "kroygor"? 🤔
Comedy mainly. ;)
Interesting show
Seraphon army mechanics and such don't seem to have been streamlined very much. Perhaps better worded and slightly adjusted.
I think Seraphon are going to define S-tier. Not enough people are going to play Null Myriad (my opinion) and I think it has enough tricks to deal with Khorne's magic resistance.
Maw-Grunta does look awesome.
The Harbingers series already? Been saying this since the reveal, didn't feel like 3.0 has been going for that long but I guess so.
4.0 likely sometime late next year unless they decide to let the edition ride for a bit.
I can't wait to make Kroak one-shot himself with Brass Skulled Meteor in Khorne.
Seeing Saurus Guard and comparing them to Vindictors (esp once faction bonuses are coming into play), and I think said Saurus Guard might be a tad too efficient (or Vindictors a tad too pricy)
Yes, it's crazy to think 2 years have passed in 3 years.
Can we stop naming things with words starting with CP please? Thank you.
So the whole army was gutted and everyone is worried that they didn't take away -1 damage on top of it. Sure, why not take that away and say that you roll a die every turn, on a 2+ throw your whole army in the trash. What a stupid take.
That seems somewhat extreme. This is still a quite strong synergistic army with some potentially devastating builds. It changed, but I feel that might be a bit strong of a reaction. :)
@@VinceVenturella I'm sorry that I got bent out of shape about it. The -1 damage thing is just my last ray of hope for being able to play big stompy dinosaurs, but I think that's effectively over no matter what. I'm certainly no expert. Maybe they'll be a thing next edition.
@@aaronsomerville2124 No I get it man, the monster side of this book is undercooked, it baffling how some of these monsters are pointed and the scrolls they gave them.
Star points? Nahh. Cosmos.
well, actual book is weakest one at 41 winrate and no tourney win in last 6 months.
new one increased the points even more. scrolls are the same or even worse like skinks losing half his dmg or every dinosaur losing 1 bite.
lost every buff that we could even stacks.
so dont need to be a genious to see how this book sucks so much, is the worst one in all aos3 besides idoneth one. only thing good is new kroak, that will keep book outside lowest braket. but besides kroak everything else is really bad, everything do much lower damage than it should for his points.
only have to compare new agradons to vampire cavalry lol. for 30 points more they are straigh better in every stat possible and do like 50% more dmg
I suppose time will tell.