And finally, "The Three Second-Biggest Arrrrguments on The Secret of LeChuck Strikes the Curse of Monkey Island Mega-Monkey - Being A Tale of Swashbuckling Adventure Games (But With More Puzzles)"
I keep coming back to this video because it really illustrates so eloquently how great this game is. However, there is one area I contend with slightly. Putting all the necessary items to be able to choose any trial to do in any order is a great bit of design, however in my experience watching countless blind let's plays of the game (and helping my girlfriend play it), nearly every single person ignores the kitchen after the chef yells at them not to go in and then goes on to be stuck for hours cause not a single puzzle can be solved without going in there.
I come back to this video every few days so I can remember what a well-argued, well-researched, well-written video essay ("essay" in the truest sense) looks like. It's very, very clear that when the author says that he has spent a lifetime playing and thinking about the game, he's a) not exaggerating b) not saying it to score credibility points, but that he's providing real personal background which is the foundation for the whole argument presented. Lots of videos on game history and analysis are either rephrasings or fancy presentations of encyclopedic facts and news articles, and while there's nothing wrong with that, I don't think they truly qualify as essays. This one certainly does. I know this all sounds kiss-ass-y, but whatever. Keep up the good work, man. *By now I think Ian already knows this, but Ron Gilbert has linked to this video in his blog.
I have no nostalgic attachments to this game. The first time I played The Secret of Monkey Island, it was in 2016, and it was the remastered edition with Dominic Armato voicing Guybrush. So when I say that SMI is one of the my favorite games of all time, then know that I am not influenced by any past memories. I got it for free on the Xbox 360, and was kinda turned off. "A point-and-click adventure game? I don't wanna pixel-hunt and spend hours figuring out puzzles." But then I played it, and I was charmed like no other game had ever charmed me before. The game was so damn funny and clever, it blew me away. All the puzzles were surprisingly intuitive, and played into the world-building. I then went on to play all the other Monkey Island games. And believe me, trying to play The Curse of Monkey Island and Escape from Monkey Island in 2017 is NOT easy. But I still loved them. I loved all of them. I get what you said about Guybrush and Elaine in the later games. But c'moooon. It's good fun. It's super fun to play.
I'm surprised you talked about "something that will attract attention but has no real importance" being a theme and didn't mention how the game suggests that this applies to itself with the "Never pay more than $20 for a computer game," line at the end.
"and swordfighting takes place entirely in the dialogue system, because how else would you gamify an Errol Flynn movie?" - You're using Bonetti's Defense against me, huh? - I thought it fitting, considering the rocky terrain. - Naturally. You must expect me to attack with Capo Ferro! - Naturally. But I find that Thibault cancels out Capo Ferro. Don't you? - Unless the enemy has studied his Agrippa... Which I have.
I don't think it's any coincidence that one of the few classic adventure games whose narrative has consistent themes is also one of the few classic adventure games which is still fondly remembered to this day. The importance of theme is something that's hard to explain in a UA-cam comment, but the short of it is that you need a theme to build your story around, so it all has one coherent _something_ that the audience is left with when it's all over.
Note: Contrary to popular belief, a theme and a moral are not the same thing. A theme is just a subject. This can be a message, but it can also be a question, which the story sets out to answer, or even just a concept which the story explores.
Looks like nihilism is a common theme to Ron Gilbert's games. The nihilist conclusion to Thumbleweed Park left me very unsatisfied and a bit sad for the characters.
It's kinda funny. I enjoyed watching Monkey Island as a kid being played by a Let's Player and not minding the messiness of the game's story but fast forward into my teens and Thimbleweed Park left me disappointed for having the exact same lack of focus.
So, the way you feel about Monkey Island 1 is (sorta) the way I feel about The Curse of Monkey Island. It was my first adventure game, and I love it to bits. I can see many of the strengths of MI1, but it just doesn't have the same charm to me. Which may also colour what follows. But I have to disagree with your portrayal of Elaine in CMI. I don't see her as a damsel in distress. This is a story of Guybrush causing Elaine all sorts of problems. Opening scene: Elaine is handling LeChuck pretty well, when suddenly Guybrush comes sailing into the fray, and gets captured by LeChuck. Then, when he - accidentally - manages to get off LeChuck's ship, he gets her cursed - and, because he didn't hide a solid gold statue on an island full of pirates, she gets stolen by a bunch of... let's call them pirates. Then he manages to get rid of the curse, but because he hasn't been careful, he's led LeChuck's henchmen straight to Elaine. In other words, if Guybrush hadn't been in the picture, Elaine would have repelled LeChuck, and been safe and sound in her fortress.
Monkey Island 2 .. the whole story started only because he needed to brag around about defeating LeChuck. He even met Largo only because he started to realized that his LeChuck stories just started to bore the s**t out of people and he needs to get something better.
To be fair to Monkey Island Three, you may rescue Elaine at one point but it's more a "Oh man, I fucked up really badly and need to fix my mistake" moment. She's a capable and strong character throughout the game, though you sadly don't get to see her too much.
Honestly I might have been more into Elaine's role in MI3 if there was more Elaine with agency in the game. It's one thing to lampshade and subvert a trope and another to lampshade it yet functionally ending up in the same place as the usual faithful applications of the trope. My expectation at the beginning of MI3 was that I as a player would finally get to hear not only Guybrush but Elaine as well, but mostly what ended up on my plate was her absence.
That's one of the reasons the unfinished ending to that game is such a sore point for me. They planned a cutscene between Part Five and Part Six where, just as Guybrush shows up, Elaine escapes, steals LeChuck's sword, and starts fighting his minions. Guybrush is sent on the Rollercoaster of Death, but Elaine shoots the lever to switch the tracks so he ends up in the rollercoaster puzzle in Part Six rather than being sent into lava and turning into a skeletal minion. But the production team ran up against deadlines, and that scene was never made. (The ending of the game is terribly truncated for the same reason; they were going to put in another musical number.)
@@spinningchrysalis4061 that's why I don't think grouping MI3 with Escape and Tales is fair - even though the main portion of the plot revolves around saving Elaine with no presence from her, it's not really rescuing her from LeChuck but more of fixing your own mistake like OP said, and when she is actually captured by LeChuck she manages to escape on her own (just like in MI1) and actually helps or even saves Guybrush, so MI3 actually does MI1 Elaine justice and doesn't butcher the character as is implied in the video. If only they included that cutscene!
I didn't know there was a "every cook makes substituotion" line until now; however, it was pretty obvious in the Part II segment. Setup & Pay off: the ending is resolved with a substitution too
I just recently thought about your points about how Guybrush's whole adventure was rather pointless (regarding his goal) and how 2, 3 and ToMI made it a theme, that the adventure Guybrush has to go on is because he messed up. Glad to see someone touching that subject as well! Please, do more and longer arguments on Monkey Island! (Also, nice insert of Seaside Rendezvous there. ;D)
Didn't you notice the "I could literally bore you to death" undertone of "it could've been so much longer"? :p Longer isn't always better. This was a good video imo.
Wonderful review! I had the same issues with MI2 and Elaine's portrayal in the sequels as you did, but thought I was in the minority since MI franchise was such a big hit. Your analysis of the game's theme and the way that adventure game mechanics are structured in this game is pure brilliance! I've been playing those games for ages and I never thought about it!
Watching your other videos, there was always a tiny relatable sense of familiarity that drew me to them. Knowing what a potent impact The Secret of Monkey Island™ had on your formative years, it makes a lot of sense. There's something about this work that buries itself deep in your brain and continues to have a subtle effect on you for years to come. Thank you for making this. I can't imagine a more loving and thoughtful exploration of a title that's probably the closest to my heart, especially after all these years.
Listening to you talk about one of your favorite things always makes me WANT to make a video essay just so I could talk at length about one of mine. Thanks for sharing ✨
The point about how the later games treat Elaine was really interesting. I played the games wildly out of order (4, 3, 1, Tales, 2, I think), so while I had some sense that she was a very inconsistent character, I hadn't realized there was this dividing line between 2 and 3. Still, 3 will probably always be my favorite.
I swear to god, if you had more videos like this, or related to culture and art in general (tomatoes or how not to define art, begginers artist, things of beauty:smash) you would be amazing, or at least even more amazing! Really great video, and thank you so much for making it, specially since i havent played any monkey island game yet...
Awesome video! Curse will probably always be my favorite due to its beautiful art and music, as well as the unique melancholic atmosphere in the back-half... but you've given me a greater appreciation of Secret. If anyone's considering playing the original two games, I highly recommend looking into the Talkie edition, which allows you to play with the original graphics and Special Edition voice acting simultaneously.
In Curse Elaine rescues herself. Lechuck said she escaped while he tried to bring her to the gates of Big Whoop. Also, in Tales she let herself be possessed by Lechuck because being rescued by Guybrush was her plan at that point. All games made Elaine justice
Great video! Good point about Guybrush being a dick in Lehcuck's Revenge. That's actually my favorite version of the character. I enjoy that I can choose (via the dialogue tree) how much of a jerk I want Guybrush to be. The comments he makes range from deadpan to mildly sarcastic to down-right cruel. And the other characters will respond to him in different ways based on what he says to them. I used to save and reload the game to see all the different responces. This was lost with the later games where every line was recorded by voice actors. There are less dialog choices and the player can select them one-after-the-other so that almost every line that is written and recorded is playable. This makes sense because why waste money on actor recording sessions if a good percentage of the dialogue will not be heard on one playthrough, but it was a sad loss for the characterization and opportunity for jokes.
The entire King's Quest series save III, V and VII leans on placing the character in an open environment in which they can walk in every direction from the very beginning of the game. In III this opens up once you get rid of the Wizard. KQ1 was particularly open ended. This is an almost Castlevania structure, released two years before Metroid was released.
I grew up playing Curse of Monkey Island, and personally I do like it much more than the 1st or 2nd, however I totally get your viewpoint on how Elaine shouldn't be a damsel. That being said, I never saw her as a damsel in Curse because I saw it as guybrush just messing up his relationship and fixing it. I also just want to add, that to me what makes these games one of my all time favorite series is the music and that I guess I was born a futzer 😂
Just throwing this out there: If you're digging for a topic for another Co-Vid, I'd be really interested in hearing some more Monkey Island takes. I love all the videos on this channel, but I've listened to this one more than any other.
lobopampeano1980: Nietzsche wasn't a Nihilist though, he was an Anti-Nihilist, his whole deal was trying to argue *against* Nihilism (or things he viewed to Nihilism).
Nietzsche wasn’t a nihilist, that’s true. His work is often interpreted as such, but misses a basic point about the philosophy he presents: he rejected objective morality and truth, including the statement that there is no morality or truth. He got around the seeming paradox of this by saying that morality should be a ‘build your own’ kind of deal, subjective morality. It’s tricky, but theoretically deeply freeing. In short, he kinda just hated ‘-isms’. Oh, and sure, he was miserable, and died miserably, but it should be remembered that he was pretty deep in the Syphilis at the time, and was also dealing with a monster of a sister and brother-in-law, who took his life work and twisted it into a anti-Semitic screed the moment he died. So yeah.
I also think the design of Part I is brilliant but not necessarily perfect. The most glaring problem is the way the Guybrush-Elaine love scene is played out. When Guybrush emerges from the bottom of the ocean, he reunites with Governor and kindle their love for each other. This is one of the most pivotal scene of the entire game and a huge narrative device that propels the entire remaining portion of the game. But if a hapless gamer chooses to solve this puzzle (i.e., art of theivery) last for whatever reason (one-in-three chance), then this entire cutscene gets skipped because Guybrush discovers that Elaine is kidnapped right after he gets out of the water. And the pivotal dialog between the Guybrush and Elaine is replaced with a short monologue by Guybrush alone (basically amounting to "She's gone but now I realize that my love for her is real and I must go rescue her!"). This means, a full one third of the people who have played this game may have missed this important scene and never fully understood the special bond that these two characters shared.
Omg this video is so amazing. I don’t even really care about video games that much but the care you put into your critical analysis of some random thing you just happen to love so much reveals so much about art and life and the human experience and god damnit IT MAKES ME CARE ABOUT THIS GAME TOO! Stellar job, so happy to be a patron. 👏🏻
You probably won't read this, but this was game design therapy for me. I too loved this game, and I think this game among other media formed my sense of humor and overall philosophy on life. I would describe myself as an absurdist nihilist, but that's only slightly related. I'm an avid tabletop RPG fan and have written and run numerous adventures over the past twenty five or so years. This video blew my mind. This is how I write my games and this is exactly why my friends who are futzers and are about the journey more than the destination love my games, but why they fall flat when I run them at conventions or less close friends. My critics are frequently asking, "What's the point of this campaign?", or "Wait, we never could complete the assigned task, but only defeat the villain?". I'm not as talented as the makers of TSOMI, because they pulled this off well and in a satisfying way where I've generally failed. This now gives me some ways to write for strangers in a better way. You've revealed in 19 minutes something that I've been puzzling over for decades. (Also I think this explains a similar divide over the show Lost, The Last Jedi and other divisive media, but that's a whole other essay.)
Tbh I don't know why or when I subscribed to you, but this video was great. I'm gonna go watch all your old stuff to find out why again. Edit: It was the tomato video :) But I also really love your other Adventure game videos
Oh my god. THe beeps and tweeps soundtrack. I remember playing this on my 286 with CGA display. No adlib sound card. Then I upgraded, got a sound blaster and enjoyed Monkey Island in vga glory!
Very well thought out. The short arguments make sense even psychological sense. I have played MI 1, 2, 3 (Curse of MI) & 4 (Escape from MI) and seen 5 (Tales of MI). I got MI 1 & 2 when it first came out .
For everyone who nodded along to the music during the title card sections (great illustrations, by the by), this one can wholeheartedly recommend the full performance from Janne Lassila (and the rest of the musicians, including the woman playing the accordion for "Jojo the Monkey").
I love how if you futz your way through Siege of Dragonspear, you character begins to question why they are carrying around weird items they haven't been asked for....
I didn’t realize how weird it was that Elaine was pretty much relegated to playing “damsel in distress” after the second game until you pointed it out. Your interpretation of her and Guybrush’s relationship is adorable btw
I'm 42 and this video makes perfect sense. Keep making videos - you enact a sort of higher-role narrative that we all knew, but never spoke up... I akin this video to both "entering the world map after Midgar" and "the holy shit, you can click the view screen?" in The Witness. Both are essentially puzzle based hunts, but each developer, separated by both geography and time, definitely started as Guybrush. I agree.
This comment is a nitpick, but I’d like to point out that on 7:48 you talk about nihilism and put forward a picture of Nietzsche. It’s a common misconception that he is a nihilist, as his world view is one of over coming, rather then succumbing to nothingness. Probably doesn’t matter, but i figure I could say something and maybe make a minor correction and help someone. Though it is more likely I just look annoying.
Nietzsche was 100% a nihilist. Nihilism isn't just, "fuck it I give up". He is an active nihilist acknowledging there is no objective truth nor morality nor value other than the one we create for ourselves.
Nietzsche's relation to nihilism is sort of complex, he wrote about it a lot though so it's fair to use his picture even if you can't really call him a nihilist per se. Though Gck is right of course that nihilism isn't necessarily passive, but i assume you got the impression that it was from reading nietzsche, so around in circles we go.
But it would be more helpful to classify the game as absurdist rather than neitzschean. Right? Albert Camus definitely was more focused on the journey being more important than the destination with Sisyphus and all that shiz
I'm a Monkey Island fan, and that observation about the three trials being there "for the sake of it" is the most eye-opening thing I've ever seen in relation to the series. My hat's off, good sir. Good stuff.
And here I am, realising why I so absolutely love The Secret of Monkey Island and still remember so much of it, while the other games where funny, yeah, but not That Monkey Island I have in mind
Monkey Island 1 and 2 were my favourite games as a kid and I loved both equally. Nowadays my favourite Guybrush is the one from MI2, and interestingly enough I used to be similar to MI1's Guybrush as a person and over time gradually turned into MI2 Guybrush, and I have no idea whether that's just due to my flawed personal character or whether the influence of these games on me is so strong, playing Monkey Island all the time as a kid literally turned me into Guybrush Threepwood.
"It could have been so much longer you have no idea" Oh, as someone who frequently watches multi-hour-long video essays on topics I don't care about for the sheer enjoyment of being rambled at, I think I have *some* idea.
I never understood people not liking the different games or characterizations or endings of this series. I always thought the liberating part of the genre and these games was being free from the usual pitfalls of fandom that you saw in established monolithic movie and game franchises. I do admit that in COMI Elaine lacked the agency she had in the previous two games, although I always attributed that to rushed development and cut content rather than the designers not "understanding" the character.
One of the strengths of Monkey Island is just how damn meta it was for its time. A bit like UHF and Spaceballs. I clearly loved the material it lampooned.
Boy, this was really good. And the part about Guybrush and Elaine's characters and relationship is like, entirely true. That was the perfect way of describing them overall.
Rewatching this after playing Return to MI, now where the series is back with Ron and Dave, the argument of Elaine being a strong, self sufficient woman and not a damsel in distress, holds true. As she clearly is in total control of the whole game, due to her setting it all up for Guybrush.
A+ video, I never thought I'd hear anything like this about Monkey Island but I'm glad I was wrong lol I also wouldn't mind a longer vid on this, you obviously love this game a lot and it reflects in how you talk about it!
I genuinely enjoyed the entire series (I was introduced to the series backwards, and it was a great romp regardless). But you're observations are spot on to take criticism in the later series, and point and click games as a whole. Secret of Monkey Island had a lot of fun rhyme to their reason (even if was through puns, word plays, and honest to goodness detective work) which a lot of other point and click games, or ones that had evolved from point and click, tend to fall short on.
There's NO WAY you can say "could've been so much longer" and not expect to be fucking flooded with comments that say "well... make it much longer!". So... Please make it much longer? :D Really neat analisys on one of my favourite games of all times! Not the first time you give me some interesting new perspectives on something I'd already thought quite a bit about. Thanks a lot for that, dude!
Excellent video as always, dude. I never played this game but I can still tell how much care and passion you've got for this game. All your points, even the one you called out as possible head canon, make so much sense it's hard not to see what you're getting at. I'm gonna try this game out at some point, seems like a good time. (Also what song is that at 4:11-4:16, couldn't find it in the credits or the SMI OST?) Can wait to see what's next from you.
Wuuuuut I was looking for your other Who shot Guybrush video series and just happened to stumble upon this gem. I was watching it, thinking, whoa how come I've never seen this? I was CERTAIN I've never seen this. And because I loved it so much I wanted to put it into my fav list. But UA-cam told me I could not add it to that list. It was already in there :| Well, looking forward to repeating this in 4-5 years and then discovering that I already left comment here, saying all the same things. great vid
It's the only adventure game I keep coming back to and re-playing, and having one helluwa fun ride each time. It's just so bloody fun and well designed. And it fills me with wonderous nostalgia and sparks my imagination on every play-through, even though I know exactly what is going to happen. I just seem to sit and think "Uuuuh, now comes the part with..." and being excited for that particular comment from Guybrush or that particular item to land in my inventory. It's really quite odd. But I love it! This video provided some interesting in-sight to the game that I hadn't considered before. It's neat stuff!
shit, MI 1 single-handedly destroyed the adventure game genre by normalizing 'take everything I see and put it on my inventory' probably is also the reason I am a hoarder now. Still playing MI in real life without realizing....
Great Video. The thesis presented in Part 2 is as immaculate as MI's design and I couldn't agree more with you on the Elaine bit; I can still remember (and still feel when replaying) the dissapointment when she is turned into a statue, after spending the entire first part waiting to see how would she save Guybrush from LeChuck's prison... I would also like to know Ron Gilbert's opinion on this video, because it's a great tribute to his work.
Tbh, for your argument two there ARE branching paths right at the start. You can go back to the map of the island instead of pressing forward or you can ignore the scumm bar door and explore the rest of the town. Also you do not need to talk to the pirate leaders (or the voodoo lady, or the sherrif in the alley etc etc) at all to finish the game. MI1 was not only released as a EGA title but also for VGA (and CGA).
Right but like that's another one of those scenarios like "barge past the bar's door because no one's going to tell you what to do." There's no way to design for that.
"It could have been so much longer, you have no idea."
I would watch the shit out of an extended Monkey Island series.
great time to do it now with Ron back
Absotutely
Ahoy!
looking forward to the sequel, "Three Enormously Long Arguments on the Secret of Monkey Island"
Three part video, each part being 1 and half hour long.
And finally, "The Three Second-Biggest Arrrrguments on The Secret of LeChuck Strikes the Curse of Monkey Island Mega-Monkey - Being A Tale of Swashbuckling Adventure Games (But With More Puzzles)"
@@guidofedeli851 I'd watch the shit out of all six parts of that.
@@professeurgideere5856Three mind-numbingly verbose arguments on The Secret of Monkey Island
ian give it to us it's been six years
I keep coming back to this video because it really illustrates so eloquently how great this game is. However, there is one area I contend with slightly. Putting all the necessary items to be able to choose any trial to do in any order is a great bit of design, however in my experience watching countless blind let's plays of the game (and helping my girlfriend play it), nearly every single person ignores the kitchen after the chef yells at them not to go in and then goes on to be stuck for hours cause not a single puzzle can be solved without going in there.
I come back to this video every few days so I can remember what a well-argued, well-researched, well-written video essay ("essay" in the truest sense) looks like. It's very, very clear that when the author says that he has spent a lifetime playing and thinking about the game, he's a) not exaggerating b) not saying it to score credibility points, but that he's providing real personal background which is the foundation for the whole argument presented. Lots of videos on game history and analysis are either rephrasings or fancy presentations of encyclopedic facts and news articles, and while there's nothing wrong with that, I don't think they truly qualify as essays. This one certainly does.
I know this all sounds kiss-ass-y, but whatever. Keep up the good work, man.
*By now I think Ian already knows this, but Ron Gilbert has linked to this video in his blog.
Have you watched @thewhyfiles ? It's a bunch of well-argued, well-researched, well-written video essays!
I have no nostalgic attachments to this game.
The first time I played The Secret of Monkey Island, it was in 2016, and it was the remastered edition with Dominic Armato voicing Guybrush.
So when I say that SMI is one of the my favorite games of all time, then know that I am not influenced by any past memories.
I got it for free on the Xbox 360, and was kinda turned off. "A point-and-click adventure game? I don't wanna pixel-hunt and spend hours figuring out puzzles." But then I played it, and I was charmed like no other game had ever charmed me before. The game was so damn funny and clever, it blew me away. All the puzzles were surprisingly intuitive, and played into the world-building.
I then went on to play all the other Monkey Island games. And believe me, trying to play The Curse of Monkey Island and Escape from Monkey Island in 2017 is NOT easy. But I still loved them. I loved all of them. I get what you said about Guybrush and Elaine in the later games. But c'moooon. It's good fun. It's super fun to play.
Curse is somewhat ok bcs of El Pollo Diablo, but I'd leave the others alone.
Lucasarts made some other adventure games that are very good as well.
I'm surprised you talked about "something that will attract attention but has no real importance" being a theme and didn't mention how the game suggests that this applies to itself with the "Never pay more than $20 for a computer game," line at the end.
Ah, de 90s, rigth now is 60-80 + dlc
@@sas3dx The price for the brand new (Ron Gilbert doing it) one is 22,99€, So... Maybe that's 19,99 in USD?
"and swordfighting takes place entirely in the dialogue system, because how else would you gamify an Errol Flynn movie?"
- You're using Bonetti's Defense against me, huh?
- I thought it fitting, considering the rocky terrain.
- Naturally. You must expect me to attack with Capo Ferro!
- Naturally. But I find that Thibault cancels out Capo Ferro. Don't you?
- Unless the enemy has studied his Agrippa... Which I have.
I don't think it's any coincidence that one of the few classic adventure games whose narrative has consistent themes is also one of the few classic adventure games which is still fondly remembered to this day. The importance of theme is something that's hard to explain in a UA-cam comment, but the short of it is that you need a theme to build your story around, so it all has one coherent _something_ that the audience is left with when it's all over.
Note: Contrary to popular belief, a theme and a moral are not the same thing. A theme is just a subject. This can be a message, but it can also be a question, which the story sets out to answer, or even just a concept which the story explores.
The theme of Monkey Island is summed up in one line: Never pay more than 20 bucks for a computer game.
Looks like nihilism is a common theme to Ron Gilbert's games. The nihilist conclusion to Thumbleweed Park left me very unsatisfied and a bit sad for the characters.
It's kinda funny. I enjoyed watching Monkey Island as a kid being played by a Let's Player and not minding the messiness of the game's story but fast forward into my teens and Thimbleweed Park left me disappointed for having the exact same lack of focus.
I have never seen anyone talk about this side of Monkey Island and never have thought of it myself, this is incredible!
So, the way you feel about Monkey Island 1 is (sorta) the way I feel about The Curse of Monkey Island. It was my first adventure game, and I love it to bits. I can see many of the strengths of MI1, but it just doesn't have the same charm to me. Which may also colour what follows.
But I have to disagree with your portrayal of Elaine in CMI. I don't see her as a damsel in distress. This is a story of Guybrush causing Elaine all sorts of problems. Opening scene: Elaine is handling LeChuck pretty well, when suddenly Guybrush comes sailing into the fray, and gets captured by LeChuck. Then, when he - accidentally - manages to get off LeChuck's ship, he gets her cursed - and, because he didn't hide a solid gold statue on an island full of pirates, she gets stolen by a bunch of... let's call them pirates. Then he manages to get rid of the curse, but because he hasn't been careful, he's led LeChuck's henchmen straight to Elaine.
In other words, if Guybrush hadn't been in the picture, Elaine would have repelled LeChuck, and been safe and sound in her fortress.
Monkey Island 2 .. the whole story started only because he needed to brag around about defeating LeChuck. He even met Largo only because he started to realized that his LeChuck stories just started to bore the s**t out of people and he needs to get something better.
To be fair to Monkey Island Three, you may rescue Elaine at one point but it's more a "Oh man, I fucked up really badly and need to fix my mistake" moment. She's a capable and strong character throughout the game, though you sadly don't get to see her too much.
Honestly I might have been more into Elaine's role in MI3 if there was more Elaine with agency in the game. It's one thing to lampshade and subvert a trope and another to lampshade it yet functionally ending up in the same place as the usual faithful applications of the trope.
My expectation at the beginning of MI3 was that I as a player would finally get to hear not only Guybrush but Elaine as well, but mostly what ended up on my plate was her absence.
That's one of the reasons the unfinished ending to that game is such a sore point for me. They planned a cutscene between Part Five and Part Six where, just as Guybrush shows up, Elaine escapes, steals LeChuck's sword, and starts fighting his minions. Guybrush is sent on the Rollercoaster of Death, but Elaine shoots the lever to switch the tracks so he ends up in the rollercoaster puzzle in Part Six rather than being sent into lava and turning into a skeletal minion. But the production team ran up against deadlines, and that scene was never made. (The ending of the game is terribly truncated for the same reason; they were going to put in another musical number.)
@@spinningchrysalis4061 that's why I don't think grouping MI3 with Escape and Tales is fair - even though the main portion of the plot revolves around saving Elaine with no presence from her, it's not really rescuing her from LeChuck but more of fixing your own mistake like OP said, and when she is actually captured by LeChuck she manages to escape on her own (just like in MI1) and actually helps or even saves Guybrush, so MI3 actually does MI1 Elaine justice and doesn't butcher the character as is implied in the video. If only they included that cutscene!
I didn't know there was a "every cook makes substituotion" line until now; however, it was pretty obvious in the Part II segment. Setup & Pay off: the ending is resolved with a substitution too
i wish it had been so much longer!! i'd love to watch you gush about stuff you like
I could literally listen to you talk about the Monkey Island series for hours. Please, make more.
I just recently thought about your points about how Guybrush's whole adventure was rather pointless (regarding his goal) and how 2, 3 and ToMI made it a theme, that the adventure Guybrush has to go on is because he messed up. Glad to see someone touching that subject as well! Please, do more and longer arguments on Monkey Island!
(Also, nice insert of Seaside Rendezvous there. ;D)
30 years today.
I sometimes come back and watch this video, the analysis is really great and it perfectly hits various nails on their head.
I think most of your fans appreciate longer videos. You do video essays, the longer the better.
Didn't you notice the "I could literally bore you to death" undertone of "it could've been so much longer"? :p
Longer isn't always better. This was a good video imo.
I think it's often a side-effect of a thing being good that you're let craving for more.
I double that, I even watched the essay twice just because I didn't have enough of it.
His long videos sure are long, but they're also PACKED. They move at the same rate as this video, there's just more points floating around.
Wonderful review! I had the same issues with MI2 and Elaine's portrayal in the sequels as you did, but thought I was in the minority since MI franchise was such a big hit.
Your analysis of the game's theme and the way that adventure game mechanics are structured in this game is pure brilliance! I've been playing those games for ages and I never thought about it!
Watching your other videos, there was always a tiny relatable sense of familiarity that drew me to them. Knowing what a potent impact The Secret of Monkey Island™ had on your formative years, it makes a lot of sense. There's something about this work that buries itself deep in your brain and continues to have a subtle effect on you for years to come. Thank you for making this. I can't imagine a more loving and thoughtful exploration of a title that's probably the closest to my heart, especially after all these years.
Monkey Island 2 was my first Monkey Island and remains my favorite. I think both of the first two did a lot of things right.
Listening to you talk about one of your favorite things always makes me WANT to make a video essay just so I could talk at length about one of mine.
Thanks for sharing ✨
Got so excited when I saw that Innuendo Studios uploaded a new video
5 was the first one I played, and then mi1, so I have more nostalgia for 5, but 1's pretty good too. This video really makes me wanna replay them.
The point about how the later games treat Elaine was really interesting. I played the games wildly out of order (4, 3, 1, Tales, 2, I think), so while I had some sense that she was a very inconsistent character, I hadn't realized there was this dividing line between 2 and 3.
Still, 3 will probably always be my favorite.
CMI is def my favorite
@@natewilson111 Heretics!
I swear to god, if you had more videos like this, or related to culture and art in general (tomatoes or how not to define art, begginers artist, things of beauty:smash) you would be amazing, or at least even more amazing! Really great video, and thank you so much for making it, specially since i havent played any monkey island game yet...
All: A pirate I was meant to be!
All: Trim the sails and roam the sea!
Awesome video! Curse will probably always be my favorite due to its beautiful art and music, as well as the unique melancholic atmosphere in the back-half... but you've given me a greater appreciation of Secret.
If anyone's considering playing the original two games, I highly recommend looking into the Talkie edition, which allows you to play with the original graphics and Special Edition voice acting simultaneously.
Was waiting for you to upload! Welcome back man!
In Curse Elaine rescues herself. Lechuck said she escaped while he tried to bring her to the gates of Big Whoop. Also, in Tales she let herself be possessed by Lechuck because being rescued by Guybrush was her plan at that point.
All games made Elaine justice
Great video! Good point about Guybrush being a dick in Lehcuck's Revenge. That's actually my favorite version of the character. I enjoy that I can choose (via the dialogue tree) how much of a jerk I want Guybrush to be. The comments he makes range from deadpan to mildly sarcastic to down-right cruel. And the other characters will respond to him in different ways based on what he says to them. I used to save and reload the game to see all the different responces. This was lost with the later games where every line was recorded by voice actors. There are less dialog choices and the player can select them one-after-the-other so that almost every line that is written and recorded is playable. This makes sense because why waste money on actor recording sessions if a good percentage of the dialogue will not be heard on one playthrough, but it was a sad loss for the characterization and opportunity for jokes.
The entire King's Quest series save III, V and VII leans on placing the character in an open environment in which they can walk in every direction from the very beginning of the game. In III this opens up once you get rid of the Wizard. KQ1 was particularly open ended. This is an almost Castlevania structure, released two years before Metroid was released.
I grew up playing Curse of Monkey Island, and personally I do like it much more than the 1st or 2nd, however I totally get your viewpoint on how Elaine shouldn't be a damsel. That being said, I never saw her as a damsel in Curse because I saw it as guybrush just messing up his relationship and fixing it. I also just want to add, that to me what makes these games one of my all time favorite series is the music and that I guess I was born a futzer 😂
Just throwing this out there: If you're digging for a topic for another Co-Vid, I'd be really interested in hearing some more Monkey Island takes. I love all the videos on this channel, but I've listened to this one more than any other.
I think that the best content is made by people who are extremely passionate about a creative work or works that I have no knowledge about whatsoever
Nihilism was always supposed to be cheerful: not "Oh, God, nothing in life matters" but "Thank god! Nothing in life matters!"
Phew, what a relief.
Ehhhh nope... and Nietzche was certainly miserable and had a miserable life and ended his days in a mental institution
You're thinking about absurdism, the "happy nihilism".
lobopampeano1980: Nietzsche wasn't a Nihilist though, he was an Anti-Nihilist, his whole deal was trying to argue *against* Nihilism (or things he viewed to Nihilism).
Nietzsche wasn’t a nihilist, that’s true. His work is often interpreted as such, but misses a basic point about the philosophy he presents: he rejected objective morality and truth, including the statement that there is no morality or truth. He got around the seeming paradox of this by saying that morality should be a ‘build your own’ kind of deal, subjective morality. It’s tricky, but theoretically deeply freeing. In short, he kinda just hated ‘-isms’.
Oh, and sure, he was miserable, and died miserably, but it should be remembered that he was pretty deep in the Syphilis at the time, and was also dealing with a monster of a sister and brother-in-law, who took his life work and twisted it into a anti-Semitic screed the moment he died. So yeah.
I also think the design of Part I is brilliant but not necessarily perfect. The most glaring problem is the way the Guybrush-Elaine love scene is played out. When Guybrush emerges from the bottom of the ocean, he reunites with Governor and kindle their love for each other. This is one of the most pivotal scene of the entire game and a huge narrative device that propels the entire remaining portion of the game. But if a hapless gamer chooses to solve this puzzle (i.e., art of theivery) last for whatever reason (one-in-three chance), then this entire cutscene gets skipped because Guybrush discovers that Elaine is kidnapped right after he gets out of the water. And the pivotal dialog between the Guybrush and Elaine is replaced with a short monologue by Guybrush alone (basically amounting to "She's gone but now I realize that my love for her is real and I must go rescue her!"). This means, a full one third of the people who have played this game may have missed this important scene and never fully understood the special bond that these two characters shared.
Omg this video is so amazing. I don’t even really care about video games that much but the care you put into your critical analysis of some random thing you just happen to love so much reveals so much about art and life and the human experience and god damnit IT MAKES ME CARE ABOUT THIS GAME TOO! Stellar job, so happy to be a patron. 👏🏻
7:45 "One must imagine Sisyphus happy" -Albert Camus
You probably won't read this, but this was game design therapy for me. I too loved this game, and I think this game among other media formed my sense of humor and overall philosophy on life. I would describe myself as an absurdist nihilist, but that's only slightly related. I'm an avid tabletop RPG fan and have written and run numerous adventures over the past twenty five or so years. This video blew my mind. This is how I write my games and this is exactly why my friends who are futzers and are about the journey more than the destination love my games, but why they fall flat when I run them at conventions or less close friends. My critics are frequently asking, "What's the point of this campaign?", or "Wait, we never could complete the assigned task, but only defeat the villain?". I'm not as talented as the makers of TSOMI, because they pulled this off well and in a satisfying way where I've generally failed. This now gives me some ways to write for strangers in a better way. You've revealed in 19 minutes something that I've been puzzling over for decades. (Also I think this explains a similar divide over the show Lost, The Last Jedi and other divisive media, but that's a whole other essay.)
The PC speaker theme at the end hits right in the kokoro.
"Ask me about LOOM"
So tell me about LOOM.
Tbh I don't know why or when I subscribed to you, but this video was great. I'm gonna go watch all your old stuff to find out why again.
Edit: It was the tomato video :) But I also really love your other Adventure game videos
AnvilPro100 I have always come back to the tomato video.
Oh my god. THe beeps and tweeps soundtrack. I remember playing this on my 286 with CGA display. No adlib sound card.
Then I upgraded, got a sound blaster and enjoyed Monkey Island in vga glory!
Ah, cga was ugly even back then, but it was the only one I had.
Very well thought out. The short arguments make sense even psychological sense. I have played MI 1, 2, 3 (Curse of MI) & 4 (Escape from MI) and seen 5 (Tales of MI). I got MI 1 & 2 when it first came out .
For everyone who nodded along to the music during the title card sections (great illustrations, by the by), this one can wholeheartedly recommend the full performance from Janne Lassila (and the rest of the musicians, including the woman playing the accordion for "Jojo the Monkey").
I so love that this was my first video I found of yours, allowed me to follow your channel in practically natural lifetime progression p:
I love how if you futz your way through Siege of Dragonspear, you character begins to question why they are carrying around weird items they haven't been asked for....
Great video, man. I enjoy your game dissections. Keep it up
Omg. They might be giants music?! Specifically off the spine.....?
We are kindred spirits my friend....
I didn’t realize how weird it was that Elaine was pretty much relegated to playing “damsel in distress” after the second game until you pointed it out.
Your interpretation of her and Guybrush’s relationship is adorable btw
Oh how much i have missed your videos
I'm 42 and this video makes perfect sense.
Keep making videos - you enact a sort of higher-role narrative that we all knew, but never spoke up...
I akin this video to both "entering the world map after Midgar" and "the holy shit, you can click the view screen?" in The Witness. Both are essentially puzzle based hunts, but each developer, separated by both geography and time, definitely started as Guybrush.
I agree.
"and it could have been so much longer."
Much appreciated! Brevity etc.
I wanna hear what else you have to say about the Game!
Make it "so much longer"!
This comment is a nitpick, but I’d like to point out that on 7:48 you talk about nihilism and put forward a picture of Nietzsche. It’s a common misconception that he is a nihilist, as his world view is one of over coming, rather then succumbing to nothingness. Probably doesn’t matter, but i figure I could say something and maybe make a minor correction and help someone. Though it is more likely I just look annoying.
Nietzsche was 100% a nihilist. Nihilism isn't just, "fuck it I give up". He is an active nihilist acknowledging there is no objective truth nor morality nor value other than the one we create for ourselves.
Nietzsche's relation to nihilism is sort of complex, he wrote about it a lot though so it's fair to use his picture even if you can't really call him a nihilist per se. Though Gck is right of course that nihilism isn't necessarily passive, but i assume you got the impression that it was from reading nietzsche, so around in circles we go.
But it would be more helpful to classify the game as absurdist rather than neitzschean. Right? Albert Camus definitely was more focused on the journey being more important than the destination with Sisyphus and all that shiz
I'm a Monkey Island fan, and that observation about the three trials being there "for the sake of it" is the most eye-opening thing I've ever seen in relation to the series.
My hat's off, good sir. Good stuff.
Happy 30th birthday Secret of Monkey Island!!! (we're all getting older right along with you...)
Great video, definetly could watch a longer version
Makes me want to rush out and buy me a fine leather jacket.
Wow.... that was deep. And I thought I've got this games figured down long ago, but this? Great stuff!
How do you think this video holds up in the wake of Return To Monkey Island, and Ron Gilbert's various interviews on the subject?
Good to see you making videos!
And here I am, realising why I so absolutely love The Secret of Monkey Island and still remember so much of it, while the other games where funny, yeah, but not That Monkey Island I have in mind
Monkey Island 1 and 2 were my favourite games as a kid and I loved both equally. Nowadays my favourite Guybrush is the one from MI2, and interestingly enough I used to be similar to MI1's Guybrush as a person and over time gradually turned into MI2 Guybrush, and I have no idea whether that's just due to my flawed personal character or whether the influence of these games on me is so strong, playing Monkey Island all the time as a kid literally turned me into Guybrush Threepwood.
"It could have been so much longer you have no idea"
Oh, as someone who frequently watches multi-hour-long video essays on topics I don't care about for the sheer enjoyment of being rambled at, I think I have *some* idea.
Never played Monkey Island + too busy + Innuendo Studios = me watching a video on Monkey Island
I never understood people not liking the different games or characterizations or endings of this series. I always thought the liberating part of the genre and these games was being free from the usual pitfalls of fandom that you saw in established monolithic movie and game franchises. I do admit that in COMI Elaine lacked the agency she had in the previous two games, although I always attributed that to rushed development and cut content rather than the designers not "understanding" the character.
One of the strengths of Monkey Island is just how damn meta it was for its time. A bit like UHF and Spaceballs. I clearly loved the material it lampooned.
That "head cannon" joke got me good.
"And it could have been so much longer, you have no idea'
I definitely now want the longer version!! :)
I like the use of the instrumental of "Seaside Rendezvous".
This is that rare kind of wonderful video which seems to keep getting better, right the way to the final line :)
Well done! This video really explains why I love this game so much and still do to this day, it's a masterpiece.
Boy, this was really good. And the part about Guybrush and Elaine's characters and relationship is like, entirely true. That was the perfect way of describing them overall.
“Guybrush is a terrible candidate for being a pirate”
I beg your pardon!
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.
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.....He can hold his breath for ten minutes.
Rewatching this after playing Return to MI, now where the series is back with Ron and Dave, the argument of Elaine being a strong, self sufficient woman and not a damsel in distress, holds true. As she clearly is in total control of the whole game, due to her setting it all up for Guybrush.
A+ video, I never thought I'd hear anything like this about Monkey Island but I'm glad I was wrong lol
I also wouldn't mind a longer vid on this, you obviously love this game a lot and it reflects in how you talk about it!
Brilliant stuff!
Thanks so much for putting this out there!
This is an amazing analisys.
"she's the only major character that isn't a pirate, and she's the BEST pirate... and deep down, he ISN'T one"... MIND FUCKING BLOWN
It's not head-canon, my friend, it's a well reasoned and insightful analysis. Loved this video.
I genuinely enjoyed the entire series (I was introduced to the series backwards, and it was a great romp regardless). But you're observations are spot on to take criticism in the later series, and point and click games as a whole.
Secret of Monkey Island had a lot of fun rhyme to their reason (even if was through puns, word plays, and honest to goodness detective work) which a lot of other point and click games, or ones that had evolved from point and click, tend to fall short on.
Governor Elaine Marley truly is a GEM. Even the acronym says so.
Just wanted to say: "How to get ahead in Navigation." Also, great vid.
There's NO WAY you can say "could've been so much longer" and not expect to be fucking flooded with comments that say "well... make it much longer!". So... Please make it much longer? :D
Really neat analisys on one of my favourite games of all times! Not the first time you give me some interesting new perspectives on something I'd already thought quite a bit about. Thanks a lot for that, dude!
this man steady coming out with relevant content. This game was a favorite of mine as a kid
I didn't know I could love this game more, but you just made it. Thank you for this,
Didn't expect to hear some random TMBG music for a quick gag, good pick too. The Spine is one underrated album.
Excellent video as always, dude. I never played this game but I can still tell how much care and passion you've got for this game. All your points, even the one you called out as possible head canon, make so much sense it's hard not to see what you're getting at. I'm gonna try this game out at some point, seems like a good time. (Also what song is that at 4:11-4:16, couldn't find it in the credits or the SMI OST?) Can wait to see what's next from you.
Spines by They Might Be Giants
Ah, thanks. I got it confused with their album by a similar name.
Wuuuuut
I was looking for your other Who shot Guybrush video series and just happened to stumble upon this gem. I was watching it, thinking, whoa how come I've never seen this? I was CERTAIN I've never seen this. And because I loved it so much I wanted to put it into my fav list. But UA-cam told me I could not add it to that list. It was already in there :|
Well, looking forward to repeating this in 4-5 years and then discovering that I already left comment here, saying all the same things.
great vid
One of the best explanations I've heard so far.
It's the only adventure game I keep coming back to and re-playing, and having one helluwa fun ride each time. It's just so bloody fun and well designed. And it fills me with wonderous nostalgia and sparks my imagination on every play-through, even though I know exactly what is going to happen. I just seem to sit and think "Uuuuh, now comes the part with..." and being excited for that particular comment from Guybrush or that particular item to land in my inventory. It's really quite odd. But I love it!
This video provided some interesting in-sight to the game that I hadn't considered before. It's neat stuff!
ironically watching this late at night and sees "Turn your computer off and go to sleep!" ... well if thats not a sign i dont know what is :)
shit, MI 1 single-handedly destroyed the adventure game genre by normalizing 'take everything I see and put it on my inventory' probably is also the reason I am a hoarder now. Still playing MI in real life without realizing....
I really like your interpretations!
Great Video. The thesis presented in Part 2 is as immaculate as MI's design and I couldn't agree more with you on the Elaine bit; I can still remember (and still feel when replaying) the dissapointment when she is turned into a statue, after spending the entire first part waiting to see how would she save Guybrush from LeChuck's prison...
I would also like to know Ron Gilbert's opinion on this video, because it's a great tribute to his work.
Great video. Brought back good memories. I only played the remastered version for the phone though.
Very nicely put together too
Tbh, for your argument two there ARE branching paths right at the start. You can go back to the map of the island instead of pressing forward or you can ignore the scumm bar door and explore the rest of the town. Also you do not need to talk to the pirate leaders (or the voodoo lady, or the sherrif in the alley etc etc) at all to finish the game. MI1 was not only released as a EGA title but also for VGA (and CGA).
Right but like that's another one of those scenarios like "barge past the bar's door because no one's going to tell you what to do." There's no way to design for that.