I feel like the "Tyranids are running from something" could work if it's recontextualized as not from an actual entity, but rather they're "running" from something they caused. Running from starvation, in that they had already consumed previous galaxies so thoroughly and that the travel from the previous galaxy was so great that had they not been alerted to our galaxy, they would have died out. Could also give as the reason why the Tyranids will never retreat or leave to have a better chance at another galaxy, they can't afford to make the journey.
I like your idea that the nids are running away from a dead and lifeless universe, because it makes sense and would be a quick and cheap idea for GW to solve this popular fan theory
I always thought that they we're being sent at the Galaxy as a precursor to the return of the Old Ones, and that would be amazing. Return of the Liizzaard Peeeeple! Just no Web Way anymore because of how the Chaos Rift ruined it. Only small passages and a few left over areas the Eldar inhabit to fight back against their former creators.
With the concept of entropy and veritasiums latest video I morphed this concept into nids basically being a natural mechanism to fight the natural increase of entropy by compacting energy into biological systems that are almost 100% efficient. It effectively loweres entropy by compacting energy and by eliminating biological life as it increases entropy through dispersion of energy. (F.e. eating, transforming a bundled energy package like a slice of bread being turned into chemical compounds and waste products aka dispersing concentrated energy into diffused multiple energy bundles that are now weaker in concentration but more numerous in sheer amount of bundles.) Imo it gives the nids a natural reason to exist without getting rid of the cosmic horror factor.
But Tiamat drives a wrench into that idea showing that they can farm. The Nid's can solve the hunger issue on thier own. Mostly like scenario is that they're following hard-coded genetic/ psychic programing to purge the universe of life. Whether is the old ones or another species idea to cleanse the warp. Is upto debate. Heck it could be some other galaxies bio weapon that went amok.
Wes: I've got broad shoulders, a long torso, and corgi legs. Me: My theory is that Wes is actually a Votann Hearthkin model that became sentient and decided to hide in plain sight.
I disagree with that statement. I would see nothing wrong with the Tyranids running away from an alien race that found the most efficient way to exterminate them, thus leading to them fleeing and trying to repopulate their forces.
I think where the whole machines spirts being a ai thing comes from there being a really odd amount of Ai hiding as machine spirits and acting like them. One of these Ai was pointed out in the Ark of omens books, It was hiding in a ship primarily full of adeptus mechanicus members with a high ranking tech Priest in the same room with it. There’s a difference between them but it’s easily can be confused sometimes.
Yea, dude, I'm confused as well. That theory is the one that makes complete sense to me, as well as what you mentioned being in the actual story. Like that line made me stop what I was doing and go "are you serious?".
If im not mistaken here is that machine spirit unlike ai are intelegient but not sentient like theres an instance of a machine spirit taking over his land raider and massacring the enemy but thats the thing its only gonna do what land raider should do, its also seemed theyre entombed in their original machine so they cant get out and infect like the imperium databese and shit, also because theyre spirit and not souless hunk of machine like ai robot theyre much more resilient to chaos infection so no men of iron 2. Witch is a factor that make them so appealing to the imperium in that beside the ritual thingi to please them they are overall loyal to its user and much more resilient to chaos than in comparison to normal ai. Even if theyre not as intelegient as ai and are pretty cryptid
The emergence of machine spirit is kinda similiar to a lot of magical occult thing happening in the galaxy is because a lot of people belive it. In that while not as strong as the orkoid mind belief the human population in the imperium make up for it by being so massive that if enough people believe something then the warp (that place of emotion) will do its magic and slowlly make it true because (this is also the case of GE slowly becoming a god) if im not mistaken the whole fenomena of machine spirit is not as common as it back when the imperium is still young and the tech priest is still hold out in mars
@@argosgiovanni5988 this is a perfect example of the differences between AI and machine sprits. But I wouldn’t really call AI soulless more of there just looking out for them selfs due to AI being destroyed on sight.
My favorite theorie is that Angron was supposed to be the empath of the primarchs. The universe just kept giving him more and more baggage. I would like to see how a clone of him without the chaos and butcher's nails unfluence would be like.
I belive a clone of angron would fail miserably. If his empathic ability was genetic alone, the clone would be missing the demigod soul that could handle that burden. And if the abiluty is tied to the demigod soul, then the clone would be little more than a shell for an intended purpose.
@@sethkeown5965 yes, that's true, but i mean the personality trait of empathy. I wanna see how he would act. Just like the clone of Fulgrim, although angron had been like that before he became a daemon because of the nails.
I think the funniest thing about the missing legions is that even the traitors, who rejected the Emperor and turned against all his teachings, keep the secret. They’re like “listen, I know we don’t care about any of the Emperor’s rules, but we did make a promise, and a promise is a promise.”
@@nunyabusiness7018 Yes the mind erase can be undone, but what would that change? The mere existence of the traitor legions is forbiden knowledge that can get you killed. Besides what good would that info be in current setting? Unless there is a story coming out of marines hunting for the body of the 2nd primarch for a new supply of gene seed or something it wouldn't matter.
The Great Devourer is running from The Great Dieter! Trying to get the Tyranids to stop over eating. Trying to get them to stick to a set calorie count per day. Trying to get them to stop eating such high cholesterol biomass. Trying to get them to try something healthy like gluten free avocado toast with kale and quinoa.
Honestly, I wouldn't mind seeing Peturabo being so caught up in modifications & such that he doesn't even *_REALIZE_* he's become a Daemon Prince until something damaged him enough to break the "prosthetic" but not what made the prosthetic work, so now he's got to grapple with how far he's fallen from his humanity. Out of the Chaos Primarchs I've always enjoyed him & Magnus because they always felt like the most complex characters out of the group: one an ignored prodigal son with an inferiority complex and the other one who wanted to help his father, not realizing that it was a secret project that no one was told of. They lend themselves to being the most robust assuming they're written properly, but that unfortunately is the biggest concern in these conditions
Falling to chaos is a choice. Its firmly established that if you aren't directly bathed in warp energy or a psyker you chose to invite chaos into your soul.
@@NineSeptims…so magnus? I could be wrong because I am still no expert on this but isn’t he a psyched who was basically bathed in Warp Energy? I think he made a choice based on some mistakes he made but it wasn’t really a choice after Prospero was burned.
@@Rexwar31it's like Griffith from Bezerk. Yeah you can choose not to worship the evil gods but what can you do if said evil gods manipulate events to push you to sell your soul
So for the tyranids I remember hearing somewhere that the necrons silent king actually left our galaxy once on a crusade of some sort and only found tyranids
He planned his exile be eternal for failing his people, then saw the tyranids out there and decided he needed to stop that horror from happening. It's likely he may see their defeat as some sort of path to his own redemption.
@@serpion5x I do love the idea of this near god like metallic being, floating through the void in self exile….. and then he sees the fucking hive fleet and goes…. OHHHH FUUUCCCKKK.. I may have done some war crimes, but the boys are gonna need a few more to deal with that fucking nightmare!
also, the nids are probably the less of the necron's problem because zarehk still wanted his flesh even after seeing tyranids, same goes for all necrons. they see the nids as minor inconveniece
I abandoned starwars already and switch to Warhammer full force and I'm loving it. Edit: Ok guys since steam has a massive sale right now. I went and bought all the dawn of war games and Darktide just to start with my warhammer journey. FOR THE GOD EMPEROR!!!
Welcome welcome some tips for navigating the lore and community: Most memes aren’t very accurate The ultramarines aren’t actually that bad just avoid anything done or created by Matt ward other than Trayzyn the infinite. The primarchs are all massive drama queens The emperor is a terrible father Magnus 100% did something wrong
My theory for why Emperor got mortally wounded by Horus is that he actually got hit by Perils of the Warp when he used that incredibly powerful psychic spell, and that's what destroyed his body. To me that makes more sense than Big E basically getting his shit kicked in by Horus and then deleting him instantly anyway. We know that he does not care about the Primarchs at all, so the idea that fatherly love kept him from just attacking Horus is a bit silly.
I mean he doesnt care about most of them plus his conformation of thinking of them as tools was 10000 years later after they fucked up everything, joined chaos or just up and ghosted
He didn't love his sons after his entire psyche was destroyed and shattered by his favorite son spread across the warp as 9 of his children he created to guide humanity to their next psychic evolution
@@Traitor_Horus_LupercalLet’s stop calling them his “kids”. They were artificially created. Not even human. They are an aberration of what a human is. I’d feel more sympathy if they were a result of the Emperor and a woman making love and were a product of that. As of now, they’re just some juiced up lab mice wearing human skin. This over indulgence on Primachs has been a stain on 40k.
I want to see Pertorabo and Vashtorr meet up. The god of machines of chaos having a cup of tea with the siege master. Maybe with them both we could see them take down the chaos gods
I had a silly idea a while back that perhaps Pertorabo and Vashtor would both merge into a new chaos god. However that would’ve required them to meet up and be actively working together. Which I doubt has or will happened.
@theashen2019 well if my knowledge remembers correctly, Perty knows how to create daemon engines which Vashtorr was the original creator. So they must have had contact before. But I'm not a lore buff like Wes
Regarding machine spirits, I have a personal anecdote that I find intriguing. I used to live in an old high rise apartment building, and the elevators in that building seemed to act with a kind of their own, even while their programming is relatively simple. Doors opening at just the right moment without being called, elevators camping around on my floor like their waiting for me… it’s really quite creepy some times. The fact that I don’t understand the mechanisms behind why the elevators did this is precisely what allows room for personification, or even deification. You may as well call these strange behaviours in the mechanisms “spirits”.
This and in turn machine spirits remind me of the "be good" snacks developers and computer techs in Taiwan will place on anything from microwaves to servers as an offering to ensure they don't act up. In the Grimdark future of humanity, packbonding with inanimate machines drew the Warps attention.
I'm relatively new to 40k and I always thought that Perturabo became a demon because of cruel irony. He literally became the thing he hated, which was a repeating theme in his life. (Still learning, but that's what I've picked up on)
@@weshammerI think it’s likely that Perty has become a daemon, but not a _chaos_ daemon. Corvus did it. Why can’t he? Perty has always been about rejecting _chaos,_ not necessarily the immaterium as a whole. I believe in the theory that the Emperor made the primarchs out of mini warp gods, or some kind of warp force unique to each one. Corvus ascended to become a daemon prince, not of the chaos gods, but his own personal warp god. I believe Perturabo has done something similar. It also doesn’t conflict with the theory that Perty is just making himself a big dreadnaught suit to keep him alive. His apotheosis is just a part of that.
I don't think saying that machine spirits are AI is shutting down meaningful discussion. It is if you consider that the entire answer to every mystery about them. They're clearly still complex and mysterious, even IF they're AI. The whole concept of pilots fusing mentally with the machine spirit is JUST as interesting if it's an AI, if for different reasons.
Yea, I fully subscribe to some machine spirits being A.I., but some are not or not just A.I.. The most basic level machine spirits are possibly just superstition and the tendency to humanize machines (the crancy printer that needs tapping before it starts). Others are A.I.. Others are warp stuff mixed with A.I. Or demons of order.
I think humanity's belief in machine spirits has created them in some form but yeah, I still believe it's mostly A.I. Whether it's A.I that's been corrupted and fractured to think it's apart of some machine god, or it's just manipulating humanity for whatever reason, or some other reason, I just like this theory more.
@@wilsontheknightThr cool part of Warhammer is that "Everythinf is canon, not everything is true" In many gaurd books a sinple thing like a Valve is considered "Arcane" So its just as possible that it is AI...but eveyone is so uneducated in the 41st Millenium that things like thinking machines are just "Magic" lol
Wasn’t there a short story about about an empty dreadnaught that was implied to have an ai that actually controlling and killed an inquisitor to keep his secret?
Actually, the missing legions being made for homebrew armies is itself a fan theory. At least, it wasn't the initial intent. We also do know some substantial things about them like Rick Priestly stating that being erased was "not a punishment but a reward - rather than being purged they were being absolved - and this was based on the assumption they had done something utterly terrible (naturally!) but then done something equally positive to earn redemption."
I just wish GW would come up with 2 new Legions, and just make them non imperial supporting, and non Xeno supporting. Make them something wholly different
Wes! I know you'll read this. I was thinking, we always hear about psykers and how dangerous they are. How about a video on how the imperium handles psykers? And some of their actual abilities. Just an idea. Keep up the awesome work!
I like the fact: That after all these years, we are still discussing where the tyranids come from & why they are arriving here. GW hasn't done much right over the last few years. (particularly in regards to the community) but storytelling is what they do, & have done a phenomenal job by not, doing so with the tyranids. Well done GW.
I think the first one about Sanguinius and Horus actually has some things going for it. The entire legacy of the blood angels is about them hiding this dark ‘secret’ that has tarnished their gene-line forever, almost every battle featuring a blood angels character with any ally has some internal dialogue with the marine desperately holding back their will to just rip, tear, and drink the blood of everything around them. It would be thematically appropriate for their primarch to succumb to this rage at the most pivotal point with the most pivotal characters. It also makes no sense at all that the emperor would hold back against Horus in the current context, but against Sanguinius? I could absolutely see that.
I agree completely. There is also nothing stopping them from flavoring it as sanguinius defeating horus, but the emperor landing the final blow after being forced to put down sanguinius.
it does have some merit. The blood angels having collective mental breakdown from what happenes in lore is blown out of proportion. Sanguinius going mad mortally wounding his father works much better for all of sanguinieses sons beeing mentally fucked.
It is heavily implied both in the lore but also because they are written as direct parallels to each other, that the red thirst and black rage were both psychically imprinted on the legion as a direct result of Sanguinius freaking out. Which means he likely did go into the black rage against Horus. It is explicitly stated he cant beat Horus though, he knows if he refuses to join Horus he dies. He can reliably see the future too so that should really be the end of that theory. The problem is combining the two theories, because only one of them is supported by the lore.
@Luminousreign old lore stated the Sangy simply couldn't see past his confrontation with Horus, so he assumed that was his death. I don't know if any new lore has specifically stated otherwise.
I know most of the evidence points towards Perturabo having become a demon prince but I do still think it's more interesting to have one of them not be yet another dumb primarch that fell prey to the chaos gods plots. Like it'd be cool for me if the traitors had a Corvus Corax equivalent. When space marines saw what Corcus was capable of they believed him to be a demon just like their primarch but it was said by Lorgar that he wasn't and by Corvus that he'd simply embraced the true form of a primarch. So I think it'd be cool if Perturabo had, had a similar transformation, very demon like but ultimately not. Except in his case he uses his gained power to still fight on the traitors side and indeed uses his new gained powers to bend chaos in some way to his will. An ascended primarch for the loyalists and an ascended primarch for the traitors.
It is meant to be ambiguous. People just feel strongly one way or the other. There is only one god for perty and it is iron. He talks about the traitor primarchs like they are disgusting idiots for going full demon lol.
Or have him continually upgrade himself closer to a corrupted man of iron to reflect the iron hands. Even the stuff written about him ascending could be retconned. It's not like GW hasn't done large changes in the past to sell more plastic.
He doesn't need to have fallen prey to the chaos gods. From what I've heard about him, it would make sense that if there's a way to become a demon without their intervention, and he found it, he'd use it. Could be just a chaos unaligned demon that is being corrupted not by the gods, but by chaos itself.
I find this Schrodinger's daemon primarch situation very pleasant. Either we get a cool villain out of it if Perty indeed is still not a daemon. Or, I get even more confirmation that no one that ever deals with Chaos in the slightest way gets away with it. Just the thought of all the "Iron Within, Iron Without" fanboys having to swallow the disgusting pill that even their primarch ended up a slave to Darkness fills me with petty satisfaction.
I actually don't mind the Sanguinius theory for two reasons I feel like his darker side is something that was explored more during the heresy and for me personally it makes more sense that the Emperor would hesitate to kill a loyal son than he would for Horus. Still though fun and intresting video!
Yeah I could imagine him being possessed by Khorne but was stopped by Horus who was briefly freed of chaos influence and then had the Emperor killed him
Respectfully disagree with the dislike of Sang/Horus/Emp theory. Played Blood Angels since 2nd ed, only heard of the theory this year and kinda love it. Twist for sure but would fit perfectly with existing lore, gaps and potential cover ups. If being a BA wasn’t tragic enough before, this takes it to a whole new level
Imo the twist is 100% the brand of grimdark for warhammer. I also feel like it does add things to the universe, the dying moments of sanguinius that blood angels see in the black rage is completely recontextualized
The one theory I liked about the missing primarchs was one of them being raised on a xenos world as one of them. And when the crusade reached them they chose their adoptive people.
Interesting, maybe the reason nobody talks about them but people know about the Horux Heredy is because back them the Emperor and Malcadof were around to mindwipe and erase all records Imperium wide but with Mslcador dead and the Emperor unable to leave the Goldfn Theone that did not happen. Also the scale of it all, half of the primaries going around destroying the galaxy is quite the task.
@@RMCbreezy What about the Highlirds of Holy Terra? The Minotar chapter appeared there and they have a varied Genesee. I think some youtuber or another said that the Primaris were also there but possibly before the arrival of Gilliman. Not sure. I'd anyone would know about those two Primarchs would be the Highlords, any inhabitant from their world who kept a record but was not present when it happened and the adeptus mechanicus from those days (assuming one is alive or left a record).
Well the theory was that the race in question would be something like the rangdan So yeah they got stomped. But it took a whole lot of boots to do it and they almost wiped out the first legion in the process.
Absolutely! Sanguinius was an absolute beast but couldn't defeat the chaos buffed Horus without letting go and going full berserker on him. Sanguinius had managed to prevent this from happening to him through discipline and self-control, but the urge had always been there and, when it meant the difference between losing all of humanity to chaos he went all out and killed his own brother but had no chance to rein himself in again. That's why The Emperor was caught off-guard, that's he was mortally wounded by his golden angel of a son, that's why he couldn't put himself to put him down and, eventually, had to erase him forevermore - thus traumatising his whole bloodline with their primarch's dying urge, to kill Horus for the sake of the humanity.
I don’t think it’s character sabotage, that’s for sure, and Sanguinius is my favourite character. It explains why The Emperor would let “Horus” mortally wound him, when there’s no reason in-lore as of right now. But c’est la vie
@@brandonobrien6201 I do agree, Horus completely annihilated the Emperor and he did nothing until a nobody protected him, I feel that is a pretty weak plot line and people came out with the Sanguinius idea because of that.
@@joshley1320 Buddy, do you in earnest believe this or have you given yourself no chance to consider it? The conspiracy being the truth and the version we got being the cover up makes so much more sense.
@@GregStraub42 I also don't hate it. I just wanted to point that in time we could get an evolution/expansion of Tyranids concept, similar to what we saw in case of Necrons
Yeah that's why I honestly don't hate the idea of the nids running from something either. It seems fine to me. The Old Ones and the Necron conflict is pretty cool and I kinda feel like it makes them the cooler soulless force since Nids really are just 'hungry bug.' Necrons are still a soulless, galactic threat, they're just fun to read about where the nids are just scary canon fodder.
@@northerner3861 The soulless unstoppable force of nature trope of the necrons was already covered by the tyranids. And the eldritch far reaching gods trope of the c'tan was already covered by Chaos. The necrons now are something that 40k didn't have before. They have effective means to combat the Tyranids and Chaos, they could potentially save the galaxy. But they lack the altruism to truly be heroic in any sense as far as the more traditional good guys could be concerned. They're a source of simultaneous hope and fear. Maybe they'll stop the bigger threats, but will they then turn out to be worse?
Like daemon engines that forgo their allegiances after being made into a machine, I can see the same happening to Perty. I can see him becoming a daemon prince, and attaching himself to a great machine and staving off the pissed off gods.
As a Star Trek fan, I translated Machine Spirit = Ai the first time I read about the lore in the early 2000s. It just seems so natural, and all the examples you gave (Titans refusing to fight, ships communicating etc) would be exactly what I would expect a sentient autonomous ai would be able and expected to do. As for the religious rituals, they could actually be maintenance or activation protocols highly mythologized, or the AI could be corrupted to the point of thinking it is a machine spirit. It is fair and more than okay to hate and disagree with it. And it's fantasy in the end. But the reasoning against it does not unfortunately hold well enough. Also I think the "blank slate" legions is no longer the consensus, especially since 30K came to the fore. I think it was what the creators originally intended, but I am fairly sure it's no longer canon. That said, I agree 100%. Leave them as a mystery.
I 100% agree, they should remain a mystery but believe in an interview one of the people who wrote them in said that they wrote them for the mystery and that the various unnamed chapters were the ones meant for player made chapters.
The Perty theory I could see going either way in all honesty. I could see Sanguinius giving into the Black Rage before he was killed which could’ve caused the affliction in his sons. I also have a theory that one of Vulkan’s relics might be able to resurrect sanguinius
I think he's attempting to do something different while using the power. He either could become a daemon, trying to reject the truth of the situation, or maybe he does something actually different. He could become his own distinct power using that of the warp. But as for my theory, vashtorr. I think eventually vashtorr will succeed in his ascension and perturabo is PERFECT for him.
i always assumed that Pertarabo's chosen daemon form was that of a giant robotic warmachine. that always made sense to me. I never believed that all the Daemons would all look like big organic monsters. Chaos is based off your emotions and personality and Pertorabo was a cold almost machine like type of person so it makes so much sense for his ascended form to reflect that. If anything Having Daemona being more than just mutated monsters in appearance opens the range up so much more.
An interpretation of "the Tyranids are running" theory I've always liked is they're not running - they're racing. The Tyranids we see in the galaxy are basically a pack who got here first ahead of other packs of Tyranids. It's very similar to the scout Tyranid theory but I think the idea of competing Tyranid packs fighting with each other is more entertaining
I like the idea that at least some of what has been attributed to the Machine Spirits has been misunderstood AI, however, I also like the idea that the Mechanicus' belief is actually responsible in a weird recursive way for the feats of many machine spirits, kind of like the relationship between Mork/Girl and the Orks
On the topic of the missing Primarchs, there are some details we know about them. The second was one hell of a prideful bastard and the eleventh was well-liked by a lot of his brothers, we also have some evidence that if both were around during the Heresy, the Loyalists would've already lost according to Dorn (though this might just be Malcador being a prick as he was the one to return the memories). There's also evidence pointing to the fact that the Eleventh is still alive and is held beneath the Imperial Palace in the vaults that give even Custodes PTSD, though this last piece is pure conjecture at the moment.
@@jrr7031Bruva Alfabusa is a youtuber who made a show called if the Emperor had a text to speech device. It gives a satirical view from the Emperor if he were to wake up in 40k.
All I want to know about the Lost Legions is what could have possibly have happened to make them to be fully stricken from Imperial records when characters like Horus and Abbadon still remain. I dont even need to know WHAT it was, just something else on that scale.
They believed in some xenos superiority and become their servants or something like that. Some xenoloving stuff is only possible thing for me. Or they Just become wiped out from existence by retcon Guns
Ok I think Wes doesn't understand why people like the Sanguinius theory. It's not a twist for the sake of twist, it's to contextualize why the emperor didn't just annihilate Horus two seconds into the fight, he had no love left for Horus who had betrayed him so thoroughly but he did have love for Sanguinius the primarch he saw as closest to perfection. It keeps the emperor as having some love for his sons, explains why he hesitated and was wounded so thoroughly and it gives Sanguinius another big W to keep his big ballin status.
My theory is the 2nd and 11th Primarchs deleted the Emperor's porn stash he hoarded over the millennium. The Emperor was pissed and embarrassed. Hence the memory deletions and why their legions were not at fault.
Big disagree on first one: not only does it highlight humanity of Sanguineous (as he finally crumbled under all that weight), and not only is the imagine of Chaos-juiced Horus shitting himself in front of Sangi, but it also gives Emperor a chance to act like a father: he lied to keep memory of his son alive.
When it comes to the missing primarches, i personally love the idea that one of them landed in what would become Tau territory and they could be using the etherals as their emissaries. Slowly realizing he was apart of the imperium and seeing what it has become and the Tau "for the greater good" thing is his attempt at making a working imperium. I know it extremely far fetched but as a Tau and Dark Angels collector i would love it
@bensarchett8416 I think it could still work. Like that's how long it took that primach to have a functional etheral. It is probably the most far fetched thing in the 40k universe but I think it'd be a interesting plot line
But it didnt... Kharn went from honorable to genocidal murderer - his book where he burns his whole legion for not wanting to sit in a storm is sooo dumb Like imagine chaos karne that still maintained his sense of honor and fair combat but still could fall to the khorne rage when pushed for awesome moments
@ethanhopkins3263 I understand your point but i believe that his character is meant to show how chaos corruption brings down a person that's what I think the whole point of the character you can disagree but that's how I interpreted his fall to chaos
@@lemanrussprimarchofthespacewol thats always been a point of chaos.... having entire legions, planets, alien species, sections of the galaxy fall is point enough they can absolutely allow us to keep some characters at least similar to the core.... Kharne sucks and has been reduced to a meat head
Though juiced by chaos Horus was still a primarch and no match for big E whom point and point prove that he can be harsh if someome goes against his will, it makes more sense that he hesitate to kill black rage sangi rather than corrupted traitor horus
In the End and the Death Volume 1, Horus is revealed to be insanely powerful and on the verge of becoming the 5th chaos god. While Malcador is on the golden throne giving him sight to everything he realizes how powerful Horus had become and says the emperor might have hesitated rushing to face him if he had known what horus had become.
So a Horus who's getting a full-powered blessing from all four Chaos gods who gave him a not insignificant portion of their power to make him equal to the Emperor using a Chaos empowered weapon against the Emperor is somehow less believable than Sanguinius (who wanted the Primarchs to all die, apparently, and knew that he would die to Horus specifically) somehow wounding the Emperor so badly that he needed to go to the Golden Throne even though the Emperor could heal a simple stab wound or two from a normal spear.
Telling someone to read the Heresy or Siege is a huge ask, its an obscene time committment, but you should check out the scene where Perturabo tells Horus's equerry he's leaving the Siege in Mortis. Its super dramatic, and borders on Shakesperean, but its a great look at Perturabo's complex views on chaos.
Perturabo becoming a deamon is the same as Mortarion becoming a psyker. They both ended up as the very thing they hated. Its chaos's crual ironic reward.
I don't think he Sanguinius theory is that bad or that there are no indications that it could be true. Big E is established in the Horus Heresy as a bad guy from the begining, imo. He doesn't love his sons, he is using them and probably intended to discard them or consume them in some way. So his love for Horus preventing him from killing him makes no sense, because he's a bastard that never loved Horus to begin with. Something's up in that part of the story, there is room for the fan theory. Also my fan theory is that the emperor wasn't the top dog of the imperium, it was the sigile order through Malcador, and the emperor convinced Malcador to sit in the golden throne to get rid of him so he could be free.
My least favourite fan theory is the Tyranids are running from something. I think it doesn’t make sense since the Nids are coming from all directions and if they were running they wouldn’t be invading and going to war in such a way
I agree, but it could be reworked into something good, like "the Tyrannids are doomed to extinction because of some kind of genetic disorder that inevitably emerges after eons of organic life passed, and the way they found to prevent it from annihilating them in the long run is to constantly be on the move and assimilate new organic life".
@@funramgenetic flaw? From the organism that rewrite thier genome on the fly? Dude lol. The only flaw would be the constant hunger. But Tiamat disproves that too.
@@skepticalmagos_101 Not "genetic flaw". "Genetic disorder that inevitably emerges after eons of life". Which, by the way, is a real thing : if we lived for eons, our constantly rebuilding organism would accumulate many problems, the most evident being that each time a cell replicates it looses a bit of genetic information.
I personally love the idea of sanguinius falling to the black rage I know it won’t add much to the overall story but it sounds so cool you should do a more in depth video about this topic
Khorne has always wanted to earn his worship, I wonder if it could turn out that way that Khorne possessed him and attempted to take down the Emperor only to be stopped by Horus, given the part of lore I heard that Horus realised that he was being controlled by chaos influence and was able to break free for only a moment
@@tincano-beans2114naah, its better than the Emperor feeling hesitant about killing Horus for some reason, which makes no sense to me given how cold and ruthless he can be against his sons, especiallyif their on Horus' side. But the Emperor hesitating to kill a loyal primarch who is beloved by the imperium and the Emperor? Now that makes alot more sense to me. Remember, Sanguinius falling to the black rage and then attacking the Emperor would make sense, since blood angels who fall to the black rage have been known to attack and even kill their own allies, simply because they cannot control their rage.
The only issue with that theory that everyone seems to conveniently ignore is that Sang couldn't have obliterated Horus's soul. Which would, in turn, make it so Horus isn't actually fully dead and could return in the future
The sanguinus falling to the blackrage theory isnt bad. It helps explain why the emperor didnt kill horus immediately. Even the best of primarchs couldnt hold a candle to big E, and big E wouldnt hesitate to kill one of his own "sons" however he would hesitate to kill sangunuis if he was still loyalist but just instead in a beserker rage. Having to put down sanguinus would also explain the emporer having to banish the kind sincere part of him. And it could feasibly happen, there was a few points in the lore where sanguinus was tempted or coaxed into falling into a rage like state.
I’ve always thought that the Sanguinious theory would be fun if instead of “FALLING” he instead sacrifices himself by embracing his darkness and then using the last of his will to let The Emperor destroy him.
I think the only way he lost legions can be touched on lore wise is to let it be an anthology of stories from the perspective of an alpha legionnaire abd filled with both truths and lies based on the breadcrumbs we've been given so far.
@@leodesalis5915 He actually tried to capture the 2nd Primarch but failed Apparently he coulsnt beat him lol That was one of the reasons he was so excited to get Fulgrim, a Primarch is like...the ONE thing he failed to capture....the guy has a Titan Legio and a bloody Krork lmao
Ah yes the humble AI of the Lasgun....Sometimes fans completely forget that we are on par or above Tzeentch with the information we know and have accessible to us.
In one of the gaunts ghosts books, one of the characters loses his gun while in a temporary penal regiment, so picks up a chaos cultists gun because the commissar was coming...and the punishment for losing a gun was death That gun was outright cursed...misfiring, overcharging, in accuracy even right after being maintained or cleaned Kind of like the Lamenters luck, but specifically on this gun
Its all hearsay and legend But its "Canon" that Lasguns manufactured at different places are less reliable because the proper blessings havnt been bestowed. The cool thing about 40k is "Canon" is subjective to quote The Black Library..."Everything is canon, not everything is true" So it could be as simple as a certain manufactorum is just bad at producing guns, so they are crappy and inconsistent. The average Imperial citizen views ANY technology as "Arcane" To the point where you need to say "The ministrations of percussive remedy" before you hit a machine to make it work
While I agree AI takes it too far as a blanket explanation, it seems pretty obvious that the machine spirit dogma is filling in lost knowledge. Humans in the Dark Age of Technology used to be far more advanced than they anything in the setting proper, and post-Heresy "invention" is focused on discovery of old tech, not invention of new. Take the whole armoring ritual for Astartes. There's the whole long form ceremony, shorter versions for emergencies... And then plenty of cases where marines just put on their armor and fight, without saying the prayers or anointing the armor or burning incense. In the Caiphas Cain novels Cain will occasionally use proper rituals or litanies when using a machine, but he speaks of them with vague disdain and actually mentions skipping them when he already knows what to do, or skipping them when repeating something he did before - to him the whole religious aspect of machines is a neumonic device. Rituals to codify operation without understanding are a familiar thing in human history. The Catholics have a whole elaborate ritual called the Blessing of The Throats which actually has a small but measurable medical benefit. You can skip having oils on your face and lit candles crossed at your heart and the whole Litany of Saint Blaise and just breathe in incense smoke like many people in Asia do and get the full benefit. However some medieval priest figured out that when you do these 45 things in a row only a third of your village gets influenza that season instead of half, and so they kept doing all 45 even though only two of them actually do anything. Some events in 40k (even some mentioned in the video) make sense for an AI to be behind them, but many others make more sense if you look past the idea of the machine having it's own will. The Titan didn't refuse to fight because you failed to appease it's Machine Spirit by skipping part of the Prayer of Activation. It couldn't fight because you skipped part of the pre-startup checklist and some set of switches was in the wrong position at an important step and now the targeting computer isn't feeding to the gun mounts. But the whole thing was built from a Standard Template Construct and the maintenance manuals are all in some weird dead language and aside from the Emperor himself the last person who actually knew the underlying theory of the control system died in M25, so instead of understanding you have rites and rituals handed down as sacred generational knowledge, representing the same knowledge but in a different format. I don't see this as a fan theory more than a feature of the setting, getting away from the high technology super science of Star Trek or Star Wars. Where Dune asked the question, "Could people built a space empire without technology?" 40k asks the question, "Could people still maintain a space empire when they've lost the knowledge used to build it?" And both make internal sense from their shared backstory of machine overlords - humans in both 40k and Dune at some point did none of their own work or thinking, and then after some nebulous event in the far past were put back in command of their own destiny.
@@Hevach This is such a great way of explaining many things in 40k People have no concept of anything really. If a bullet misses you, you may think its the Emperor peotecting you, but more than likely, they just. missed etc
I have a theory about the Tyranids that I've talked about before on this channel. The idea is that in reality the tyranids are not just a terrifying force that plans to devour the galaxy, but the immune system of the universe (the materium). Our galaxy would only be a cancerous cell infected by chaos which must be emptied of all life in order to prevent the infection from affecting the rest of the body. Even though I don't think this theory is true it would explain a lot of things: like why the tyrannids come from every direction, because they exist in all the galaxy as the immune system. Or why the Hive mind is so powerful, because it’s the soul of the universe. And with the Cicatrix maledictum we can see why, imagine it continues to grow to a galaxy size, it will be a threat for the all univers.
I personally like the Tyranid theory. I dont think them running away from something even larger hurts them in anyway because no matter how you cut it, they're still an existential threat. But the idea that there something else out there that's even worst than them and we dont know what it is, that's the type of thing that would keep you up at night.
I’m in the same boat. It may be a kinda stupid theory, but I kind of like it. Plus, having the largest threat to the galaxy be running away from something worse would be pretty grim dark.
Although I like the concept, imo the idea of the nids is that they are The Apex Predator. They are the hunt, the hunger, the perfect organism wholly designed to kill and consume. They *are* the top of the food chain. The idea that there's something even stronger hunting them suggests that they're not on the top of the food chain, which takes away from their whole deal.
I like the idea that the tyranids are an inherently failed species, because even when they succeed, they lose. It will be just the hivemnind in a dead universe. And then what? In the end it would probably just kill itself after some time, because there is nothing to do anymore.
Perturabo: "I am a being of perfect logic." Perturabo fans: "OMG He said he's a being of perfect logic, just like I say I am! Therefore, it must be true!" It's almost like Perturabo and his fans share a particular failing or something.
I have theory that the birth of slaanesh actually drew the tyranids instead of the overloading of the Pheous Becon during the Horus Heresy. It makes sense to me considering how far they have to travel from galaxy to galaxy without enhanced space travel. Honestly the war in heaven could have drawn them as well considering we don't know how old the nids actually are or where they came from.
Yeah, i've always through that, considering how long it would take to go from one galaxy to another, the Tyranids have been heading for the milky way since long before humanity was even a thing.
I don`t think is could be from the war in heaven, beyond that it would be an absolutely TERRIBLE MARK (necrons, eldar god, eldar and such), there FTL is based on science BS that basically makes them go EXTREMELY fast, like faster then webway fast, like several times the speed of light, but its inaccurate so they can only go 99% of the way before having to VERY slowly make there way to the target the good old fashioned way, if they were travelling to another galaxy then the time between would be cut so much as too make the travel time only 10000 years, which granted is really long when you consider that less then 1% of the travel time
The war in heaven was so long ago that any Tyranids it alerted likely already tried to eat the galaxy and got shit on by the eldar empire while they had 60 million years as the galaxy’s superpower. As for the birth of slaanesh, it’s possible that it worked in tandem with the Pharos device, as one would create a massive ripple of emotion that shows them the galaxy is populated with sapient life and the flash of the Pharos showed them life was abundant enough that galaxy spanning wars could be fought
My fan theory: wh40k universe actually just exists in the imagination of the emperor. As he developed the universe, people wanted more and more and now just has to spend all his time making more and more grimdark stuff to the never ending hunger of the fans.
The 1st one on this list is dumb. Sanguinius falling to the black rage, killing horus, then for him to mortality wound the emperor who didn't want to hurt his true favorite son. Is a great ending and would be one of the biggest holy shit moments in warhammer history.
As a fan of the iron warriors, i completly agree. I want to see at least one of the traitor primarchs not be a demon. The only we had before was Konrad and he’s dead so…
My least favourite fan theory is that Kaldor Draigo is actually just freaking insane and that’s why he’s survived in the warp. I like Kaldor being one of the few “good guys” in an other wise grim dark setting. I actually find the few bright points to help make the setting even darker honestly.
That's why I hate the saying "There are no good guys in 40k". This statement is inherently misleading. What is meant is that there are little-to-no good _factions_ in 40k. 40k has _plenty_ of good people in it, but they live in a bad world that far overshadows them, and no good deed goes unpunished in the 41st millennium.
Having a universe where there’s literally no positives in it would be hard to pull off without it being so edgy it’s cringe and just kinda bad writing imo. The few rays of hope and goodness 40k does have is more realistic and reflects the inherent hope and goodness that humanity does have and how at least people can and will fight back against such impossible odds.
The 'running from something worse' trope is precisely the backstory used in Stellaris for the endgame crisis 'Pretyhoryn swarm'. I doubt the swarm has roots older than the tyranid theory, but I'm guessing lately that they may influence fan theories, in both directions...
What about the theory that Angron actually had died on Nuceria with his clan and the Emperor resurrected him? This would explain why the Red Angel did not exude an aura that other primarchs did.
No he should be like what Corax has become, his true warp nature revealed, turning him into what he always has been, a being made from the warp with out being a Deamon, just like Corax has become.
theory 1: besides that it makes no sense to exist, it is absolutely possible, since nothing even close to a reliable narrator exists in any warhammer media. we have been shown this to many times, to not accept it as true. theory 2: indeed the easiest way to reject this one is the fact that you don't flee to one central point, makes no sense logically. theory 3: the only problem i see here, is that anyone would know, machine spirits are in fact AI. even if it would be just the higher echelon. you could argue that parareligious rites to appease machine spirits are nothing more then highly convoluted passwords. entry 4: has no place in a "worst" fan theories list theory 4: yea, it's just wrong, plain as that.... if we chose trust the narrator. here is my theory: perturabo is vashtorr.
I like the Sangy theory. I think it could be made into such a dark and heartfelt tragedy. Could be made so compelling and heartbreaking. Like I wouldn’t like to see him go completely bat shit crazy but deep haaaaatred that just takes over him and Big E’s like not today big man!
Well if Sanguinius did fall to the black rage then it would not be out of the question for him to attack the Emperor, since blood angels who fall to the black rage have been known to attack and even kill their own allies, simply because they cannot control their rage. It would also make a hell of a lot more sense for the emperor to hesitate to kill Sanguinius than Horus.
So with later lore about how supposedly BIG E put powerfull warp entities into the primarchs, and that sanguineous might have had two in him and he was roughly what was keeping that balance in the blood angles, and now black rage runs rampant more than before, why arent other primarch deaths impacting their legions with such a psychic backlash?
I was mostly just hoping there was a renegade primach that hasn't gone full evil demon mode. I want a primarch that recognizes that the imperium isn't worth supporting, but at the same time realizes that chaos is a much worse alternative.
We do have one . Our silly red Magnus. He's the only demon primarchs who didn't voluntarily wanted tentacles and smelly breath. Tzeench had him for a while yet , because he's kinda a scumbag, ended up being trapped in an impossible situation
Pretty much what happened with Konrad Curze. He despised the Imperium but didn't give in to Chaos specifically - same with the legion in the main (as portrayed incredibly well in the AD-B Night Lords trilogy), where demon posessions and Chaos devotees were despised or outright shunned. Curze was so incredibly cynical and cruel that he also equally despised submission to / worship of Chaos gods the same way as he despised devotion to the Emperor - witness his equal dismissal of Lorgar as he did Manus and Corax; he thought Lorgar was utterly pathetic for simply swapping one worship for another, and hated the 'borrowed power' of Chaos. He just sided with Horus under the promise of freedom from the Empire and the joy of absolute Nihilism/pissing off Emps; hence he never became a Daemon Prince and just kinda fecked off when the battle for Terra turned south.
I've always liked the idea that the tyrannids are technically running from something, But less innocence that they are fleeing a greater threat and more that they have been spooked like a herd of cattle.
Regarding Perturabo being a demon, Corvus Corax is pretty much an example of embracing his warp origins circumventing the chaos gods. If Corvus could do it, couldn't Perturabo have done something similar?
No, because Chaos and the Warp are different things. Chaos comes from the Warp and is part of it, but not all the Warp is chaotic, which is why psykers can use it without being corrupted if properly trained. Corvus has mastered the primarch part of him that comes from the Warp. Perturabo was under the corrupting influence of Chaos, his mind already twisted from "Chaos is a liability" to "I can control Chaos, I can rule over it..." The exact line of thinking all arrogant slaves of the Dark Gods adopt before being permanently shackled one way or another.
I love how you take the time to explain the theory in your lore voice. Im like, "yeah that makes sense, very cool!" And then you shut it down! :D atleast you gave them a chance. Love the content!
I like the theory of sanguinis was the one who killed horus. It makes much more sense why his whole chapter falls to the black rage, it also makes much more sense why the god emperor who has shown to be a cold person and not care about killing his creations (thunder warriors) for some reason felt bad about horus and let his guard down on the clearly crazy demon crazy dude
What do you think about the theory that Fulgrim is still possessed by the deamon and is just pretending that he’s back in control? This would explain why Fulgrim’s clone actually worked out, as his soul would still theoretically be out there. However it can also be disproven by Fulgrim’s POV in books like Angle Exterminatus where he seems to be back in control, but at the same time maybe the deamon has started thinking that he actual is Fulgrim. I personally don’t really believe in it but what are your thoughts?
I actually think you're completely wrong about the Sanguinius killing Horus theory. The Emperor loved Horus, but knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that he was evil, and not even Horus at that point. Sanguinius had also held eternity gate like a complete madman and had taken down combatants such as Daemon Angron and Ka'Bandha. This was without falling to the black rage. This also would be a decent reason for why the Blood Angels that fall to the black rage see everyone around them as Horus, as that is what allowed Sanguinius the strength needed to kill him. The Emperor would truly be reluctant to kill one of his most loyal and strongest sons, and would explain why he allowed himself to get beaten to hell before finally fighting back-he didn't want to kill his favourite son. It's a twist you wouldn't have seen coming because it is completely and utterly unexpected, and adds a little more grimdark to the situation if you ask me-it is not just a twist for the sake of it.
Sanguinius - The theory solves a "problem" that isn't really there. The idea is that the Fabulous Hawk Boy was almost the pinnacle of melee combatants - even among the Primarchs - and that if Horus lost to Russ, there's no way that Sanguinius in the midst of a bloody fury could ever lose. It's a "flaw" that ignores a bunch of facts about canon. Horus was empowered since his fight with Russ. Sanguinius's incredible combat skill came partially from premonition, and heavily from discipline. His Primarch Tier Rage would have given the Golden Angel a strength and fury boost as a last ditch effort to overpower Horus's Kaio-Ken x4 - but at the cost of stealing much of his technique and ability to apply his foresight. Which brings the biggest reason: Sanguinius didn't **experience** the Black Rage, the fact that his rage never got satisfaction at the death of Horus **caused** it. It's a solution to a problem that's already answered - in search of a problem not to fill a hole in the lore, but to satisfy some edge-fest demanding more Grimdark. Let one of the Sons be Noblebright, it won't hurt you, there's more than enough edge among the other 19 or 20. Tyranids - They're hungry bugs here to eat us. That's all. The only thing "following" them is the rest of the endless swarm. If there was something chasing them here, The Silent King would have mentioned them too, but instead declared the coming threat to be the Tyranids - and **just** the Space Bugs of Death. Cthulhu doesn't have nightmares, just family. Machine Spirits - The only way that the spirits are "intelligent" is in the same way that modern "AI" is - they really aren't it's just a pattern that's too complex and interwoven for the humans using them to accurately understand. Now, that may actually extend all the way to being actual souls, they may be microshards of the Void Dragon accidentally implanted by faith in the Omnissiah (unlikely since ctan can't be corrupted, but machine spirits can) or even some sort of tsukumogami-esque proto-soul. The most likely answer is that whatever "regulator chip" goes into a gun to help its wielder use it effectively is pretty much what would be a room sized supercomputer in the modern day. They may be capable of such advanced processing that they can be programmed by speech and intent - hence the rituals and prayers - and thus so unfathomably complex that humans can only comprehend them as "spirits". We already see quirks in modern machines and computers as semi-sentient - and call that phenomenon the "Ghost in the Machine" - so it's easy to imagine that these vastly more complicated items may have something similar - especially things like Titans and Centurions which have direct neural links that can confuse mortal minds even further - up to and including levels of feedback that cause changes in behavior or brain damage. But regardless, the machine spirits can be so much more and more interesting than just "polite AI" - even if that seems to be a line that's hard to distinguish for people like us, that are viewing it all through a lens of incredibly inferior technological understanding. Lost Primarchs - Everyone wants concise answers to their settings, and this is a particular hole that everyone wants to see explored. But there's going to be no answer more satisfying than the mystery, even if the holes weren't there on purpose. Perturabo - On one hand, "everything is canon, not everything is truth." On the other hand "the ice we skate is getting pretty thin." The basis for this - that the Iron Warriors don't use daemons - misunderstands the logic, and the very hubris behind it. It's not that Perty wants nothing to do with the warp - and that certainly didn't stop Mortarion from ascending, remember - it's that he shares the TTS Emperor's xenophobia. The idea that they can't trust an entity that has a literally alien way of thinking and valuing things. Perturabo doesn't trust the motivations of Daemons - for plenty of good reasons - but he sees the warp and psionics as just another tool to be grasped, bent to his will, and mastered. That includes using it to perfect his own form. In the face of all that canon, there's simply not enough evidence to say that it's not true. Now, that's not to say that he's really just the village bicycle of Daemon Primarchs - there's still good theory as to his independence from Chaos while also drinking the kool aid (and maybe we'll see it from Vashtorr - but that's another theory) but the canon lines up, he's in the warp's hands.
On one hand, they're interesting ideas, and I love the creativity behind them, but at some point a "fan theory" starts turning into "fan fiction" where you need an entire alternate universe to explain how things went so wrong. Don't get me wrong, that can be fun too - the Dornian Heresy is all sorts of amusing - but at some point they need to be differentiated between "I think that would be cool, even if it doesn't make sense" and "I think GW left the door open for this to be possible and/or it might be where the story's heading."
I have to disagree with the 1st video, I feel it makes sanguinius sacrifice even more noble, as he can see the future, so he knows what giving into the black rage will do, but sees no other option. He sees something far worse. He damns himself, his legion and mankind to stagnation. It honestly blew my mind as an awesome twist, and is by far, much better than the emperor just letting Horus beat the snot out of him because he suddenly decides he can't hurt Horus. Despite everything that has built up previously regarding it. I doubt they will take this theory and run with it, I feel sanguinius has been built up so much to make his death more impactful.
The reason sanquinius didn’t fall to the black rage is that the black rage was made because sanquinius was killed Why would blood angels see Horus killing sanquinius If sanquinius killed Horus
This is like saying the red thirst happened because Sanguinius was knocked out. It ignores that he freaked out right before that and it was that freak out that ended up imprinted on the legion through their psychic connection. I dont think he killed Horus. Sanguinius knew he was going to die if he didnt join Horus, going into a rage wouldnt have changed that. It would be just one of many examples of Sanguinius dropping the facade of nobility for a moment under pressure.
Wh40k is one of the few fandoms where i hear people say they dont want certain aspects of lore answered. I understand to a degree loving the mystery and all the "WHAT IF" said mystery creates but to NEVER have something answered would eventually drive me crazy. It'd feel like a unfinished story or a forgotten/ignored plotline. The missing primarchs is one such example that alot of fans dont want explained. Meanwhile im sitting here like I need to know.
Partly agreed. I wouldn't say I want to know everything, but I would like for them to build up the pieces bit by bit until a comprehensive picture forms. Then from there, I would like stories that delve into that picture and give us details about the lost legions, but with the caveat that much if not most of what's written is highly likely to be false information. Basically, I both do and don't want to know more about them. I want the information, but I don't want it to be even reliable.
I feel the same on the Dark Age of Technology. But if you want more information about the lost legions, Majorkill has a pretty solid theory in his Rangdan Xenocides video.
There is no reason the big e would hold back against Horus. Now Sanguinius on the other hand absolutely. The emperor could’ve obliterated Horus at any point why would he wait until Horus almost killed him to do it. A Horus he knew was way, way, way, way past any sort of saving. Nvm the fact that if he did “save” Horus wtf is everyone else gonna think. Now Sanguinius on the other hand I could see him trying to get Sanguinius out of the black rage and in doing so being severely wounded. Plus we know sanguinius is the most primarch him with the black rage would make him even more powerful.
Love this video even if I don’t agree with all of this. I feel like this is one of your more cerebral and critical (and personal) video and I’m all for it! Keep them coming!
The first one is a pretty good theory in my opinion because it actually contextualizes all the smoke and mirrors around the emperor and would explain why he delayed in killing Horace like he didn't want to kill him he knew exactly what chaos was any new horse was possessed by it because he had advance knowledge that the heresy would happen
I like the Sanguinious theory due to it making the story just so much more tragic. The Heresy is ultimately a tragedy and it makes the story that much more damning if it ended with the perfect hero succumbing to a force he couldn’t control to defeat the villain, only to be destroyed by it in the end. And personally I don’t think it takes away from anything but rather acts as a contrast to the greatness of the characters.
I feel like the "Tyranids are running from something" could work if it's recontextualized as not from an actual entity, but rather they're "running" from something they caused. Running from starvation, in that they had already consumed previous galaxies so thoroughly and that the travel from the previous galaxy was so great that had they not been alerted to our galaxy, they would have died out. Could also give as the reason why the Tyranids will never retreat or leave to have a better chance at another galaxy, they can't afford to make the journey.
I like your idea that the nids are running away from a dead and lifeless universe, because it makes sense and would be a quick and cheap idea for GW to solve this popular fan theory
I always thought that they we're being sent at the Galaxy as a precursor to the return of the Old Ones, and that would be amazing.
Return of the Liizzaard Peeeeple!
Just no Web Way anymore because of how the Chaos Rift ruined it. Only small passages and a few left over areas the Eldar inhabit to fight back against their former creators.
With the concept of entropy and veritasiums latest video I morphed this concept into nids basically being a natural mechanism to fight the natural increase of entropy by compacting energy into biological systems that are almost 100% efficient. It effectively loweres entropy by compacting energy and by eliminating biological life as it increases entropy through dispersion of energy. (F.e. eating, transforming a bundled energy package like a slice of bread being turned into chemical compounds and waste products aka dispersing concentrated energy into diffused multiple energy bundles that are now weaker in concentration but more numerous in sheer amount of bundles.)
Imo it gives the nids a natural reason to exist without getting rid of the cosmic horror factor.
I consider them as galactically migrating to a news source, and they have returned to their galaxy of origin...
But Tiamat drives a wrench into that idea showing that they can farm.
The Nid's can solve the hunger issue on thier own.
Mostly like scenario is that they're following hard-coded genetic/ psychic programing to purge the universe of life.
Whether is the old ones or another species idea to cleanse the warp. Is upto debate. Heck it could be some other galaxies bio weapon that went amok.
Wes: I've got broad shoulders, a long torso, and corgi legs.
Me: My theory is that Wes is actually a Votann Hearthkin model that became sentient and decided to hide in plain sight.
Idk who painted him but man they did a perfect job
He did start gaining a lot of traction on social media around the same time as the Leagues’ release…
The ancestors are watching this one
Hmmmmm
I support this theory
“We don’t need a secondary alien” is an amazing statement and the Inquisition applauds your devotion
Someone get him a Rosette…he could be useful with his platform.
Boooo
I disagree with that statement. I would see nothing wrong with the Tyranids running away from an alien race that found the most efficient way to exterminate them, thus leading to them fleeing and trying to repopulate their forces.
I think where the whole machines spirts being a ai thing comes from there being a really odd amount of Ai hiding as machine spirits and acting like them. One of these Ai was pointed out in the Ark of omens books, It was hiding in a ship primarily full of adeptus mechanicus members with a high ranking tech Priest in the same room with it. There’s a difference between them but it’s easily can be confused sometimes.
Yea, dude, I'm confused as well. That theory is the one that makes complete sense to me, as well as what you mentioned being in the actual story. Like that line made me stop what I was doing and go "are you serious?".
Really? I thought they really were the same thing? Today I learned
If im not mistaken here is that machine spirit unlike ai are intelegient but not sentient like theres an instance of a machine spirit taking over his land raider and massacring the enemy but thats the thing its only gonna do what land raider should do, its also seemed theyre entombed in their original machine so they cant get out and infect like the imperium databese and shit, also because theyre spirit and not souless hunk of machine like ai robot theyre much more resilient to chaos infection so no men of iron 2. Witch is a factor that make them so appealing to the imperium in that beside the ritual thingi to please them they are overall loyal to its user and much more resilient to chaos than in comparison to normal ai. Even if theyre not as intelegient as ai and are pretty cryptid
The emergence of machine spirit is kinda similiar to a lot of magical occult thing happening in the galaxy is because a lot of people belive it. In that while not as strong as the orkoid mind belief the human population in the imperium make up for it by being so massive that if enough people believe something then the warp (that place of emotion) will do its magic and slowlly make it true because (this is also the case of GE slowly becoming a god) if im not mistaken the whole fenomena of machine spirit is not as common as it back when the imperium is still young and the tech priest is still hold out in mars
@@argosgiovanni5988 this is a perfect example of the differences between AI and machine sprits. But I wouldn’t really call AI soulless more of there just looking out for them selfs due to AI being destroyed on sight.
My favorite theorie is that Angron was supposed to be the empath of the primarchs.
The universe just kept giving him more and more baggage.
I would like to see how a clone of him without the chaos and butcher's nails unfluence would be like.
Is that just a theory? I thought that was confirmed in a novel or two
@@DefaultProphet Angron: Slave of Nuceria to be exact. He was relieving the pain of one of his fellow pit fighters who was dying of grievous wounds.
I belive a clone of angron would fail miserably. If his empathic ability was genetic alone, the clone would be missing the demigod soul that could handle that burden. And if the abiluty is tied to the demigod soul, then the clone would be little more than a shell for an intended purpose.
@@sethkeown5965 yes, that's true, but i mean the personality trait of empathy. I wanna see how he would act. Just like the clone of Fulgrim, although angron had been like that before he became a daemon because of the nails.
So basically i wanna see a version of how he would act without the corruption or nails
I think the funniest thing about the missing legions is that even the traitors, who rejected the Emperor and turned against all his teachings, keep the secret. They’re like “listen, I know we don’t care about any of the Emperor’s rules, but we did make a promise, and a promise is a promise.”
They were mind erased by Malcador.
@@davidwilliam9681 its been shown that chaos can un-mind erase all that, when papa smurph is fighting his near fatal fight w/ fulgrim
@@nunyabusiness7018 Yes the mind erase can be undone, but what would that change?
The mere existence of the traitor legions is forbiden knowledge that can get you killed.
Besides what good would that info be in current setting? Unless there is a story coming out of marines hunting for the body of the 2nd primarch for a new supply of gene seed or something it wouldn't matter.
"YOU NEVER BREAK A PROMISE, THAT'S TOO FAR!" - Random Oversimplified roman general idk I forgot his name
@@nunyabusiness7018be specific with how it was shown bud
One of the Lost Primarchs was Practicalus, and he was kicked out because he said giant pauldrons didn't really do it for him.
No wonder everyone keeps the promise... Impractically large Pauldrons unite the galaxy!
WE DO NOT SPEAK OF IT!!
He was Primarch of the Marines Sensible, the 11th Legion. They were not for this galaxy.
CEASE. YOUR. HERESY.
Brother, get me the flamer. The HEAVY FLAMER.
The Great Devourer is running from The Great Dieter! Trying to get the Tyranids to stop over eating. Trying to get them to stick to a set calorie count per day. Trying to get them to stop eating such high cholesterol biomass. Trying to get them to try something healthy like gluten free avocado toast with kale and quinoa.
Alternately, the Tyranids are horrifically mutated lizardmen, who are fleeing in an attempt to avoid becoming a part of Age of Sigmar.
The 5th Chaos God: the Atkins Diet
Or the Great Devourer is running from the most freared entity in existence...
...the Great Tax Collector
@@StarkeRealm I can't blame them if this were to be true.
@@StarkeRealmsaw the shit show that was the end times and fucking bailed
Honestly, I wouldn't mind seeing Peturabo being so caught up in modifications & such that he doesn't even *_REALIZE_* he's become a Daemon Prince until something damaged him enough to break the "prosthetic" but not what made the prosthetic work, so now he's got to grapple with how far he's fallen from his humanity. Out of the Chaos Primarchs I've always enjoyed him & Magnus because they always felt like the most complex characters out of the group: one an ignored prodigal son with an inferiority complex and the other one who wanted to help his father, not realizing that it was a secret project that no one was told of. They lend themselves to being the most robust assuming they're written properly, but that unfortunately is the biggest concern in these conditions
Falling to chaos is a choice. Its firmly established that if you aren't directly bathed in warp energy or a psyker you chose to invite chaos into your soul.
@@NineSeptims…so magnus? I could be wrong because I am still no expert on this but isn’t he a psyched who was basically bathed in Warp Energy? I think he made a choice based on some mistakes he made but it wasn’t really a choice after Prospero was burned.
@@Rexwar31it's like Griffith from Bezerk. Yeah you can choose not to worship the evil gods but what can you do if said evil gods manipulate events to push you to sell your soul
So for the tyranids I remember hearing somewhere that the necrons silent king actually left our galaxy once on a crusade of some sort and only found tyranids
I don’t believe it was specified, but he did return and was like “I saw some SHIT”….. the Nids are a solid conclusion! Could be wrong….
He planned his exile be eternal for failing his people, then saw the tyranids out there and decided he needed to stop that horror from happening. It's likely he may see their defeat as some sort of path to his own redemption.
@@serpion5x I do love the idea of this near god like metallic being, floating through the void in self exile….. and then he sees the fucking hive fleet and goes…. OHHHH FUUUCCCKKK.. I may have done some war crimes, but the boys are gonna need a few more to deal with that fucking nightmare!
theres also this device that the imperium sent outside of the galaxy and all they heard was this defeaning ork noises.
also, the nids are probably the less of the necron's problem because zarehk still wanted his flesh even after seeing tyranids, same goes for all necrons. they see the nids as minor inconveniece
I abandoned starwars already and switch to Warhammer full force and I'm loving it.
Edit: Ok guys since steam has a massive sale right now. I went and bought all the dawn of war games and Darktide just to start with my warhammer journey. FOR THE GOD EMPEROR!!!
Battletech?
Welcome welcome
some tips for navigating the lore and community:
Most memes aren’t very accurate
The ultramarines aren’t actually that bad just avoid anything done or created by Matt ward other than Trayzyn the infinite.
The primarchs are all massive drama queens
The emperor is a terrible father
Magnus 100% did something wrong
Welcome young blood
Na u gotta do both, just become better
You can do both
My theory for why Emperor got mortally wounded by Horus is that he actually got hit by Perils of the Warp when he used that incredibly powerful psychic spell, and that's what destroyed his body. To me that makes more sense than Big E basically getting his shit kicked in by Horus and then deleting him instantly anyway.
We know that he does not care about the Primarchs at all, so the idea that fatherly love kept him from just attacking Horus is a bit silly.
I mean he doesnt care about most of them plus his conformation of thinking of them as tools was 10000 years later after they fucked up everything, joined chaos or just up and ghosted
He didn't love his sons after his entire psyche was destroyed and shattered by his favorite son spread across the warp as 9 of his children he created to guide humanity to their next psychic evolution
@ErickGarza-kp9ys Sounds about right.
@@Traitor_Horus_LupercalLet’s stop calling them his “kids”. They were artificially created. Not even human. They are an aberration of what a human is. I’d feel more sympathy if they were a result of the Emperor and a woman making love and were a product of that. As of now, they’re just some juiced up lab mice wearing human skin. This over indulgence on Primachs has been a stain on 40k.
I want to see Pertorabo and Vashtorr meet up. The god of machines of chaos having a cup of tea with the siege master. Maybe with them both we could see them take down the chaos gods
Me too!
That and possibly a new ally to help deal with Vashtoor's notorious opposition Be'lakor.
I had a silly idea a while back that perhaps Pertorabo and Vashtor would both merge into a new chaos god.
However that would’ve required them to meet up and be actively working together. Which I doubt has or will happened.
@theashen2019 well if my knowledge remembers correctly, Perty knows how to create daemon engines which Vashtorr was the original creator. So they must have had contact before. But I'm not a lore buff like Wes
I like that idea, Give me Tech daemons damn you!
Maybe that would make GW turn their eye of Sauron on my boys in silver.
Regarding machine spirits, I have a personal anecdote that I find intriguing.
I used to live in an old high rise apartment building, and the elevators in that building seemed to act with a kind of their own, even while their programming is relatively simple. Doors opening at just the right moment without being called, elevators camping around on my floor like their waiting for me… it’s really quite creepy some times.
The fact that I don’t understand the mechanisms behind why the elevators did this is precisely what allows room for personification, or even deification. You may as well call these strange behaviours in the mechanisms “spirits”.
Our ancestors believed everything had a spirit.
This and in turn machine spirits remind me of the "be good" snacks developers and computer techs in Taiwan will place on anything from microwaves to servers as an offering to ensure they don't act up.
In the Grimdark future of humanity, packbonding with inanimate machines drew the Warps attention.
@@dannymaurice5543 cram pEEENIs into ROBOT *bangbangbangbangbang*
I'd start worshipping that elevator
I'm relatively new to 40k and I always thought that Perturabo became a demon because of cruel irony. He literally became the thing he hated, which was a repeating theme in his life. (Still learning, but that's what I've picked up on)
I think you hit the nail on the head. It's similar to the downfall of the other traitor primarchs
@@weshammerI think it’s likely that Perty has become a daemon, but not a _chaos_ daemon. Corvus did it. Why can’t he? Perty has always been about rejecting _chaos,_ not necessarily the immaterium as a whole.
I believe in the theory that the Emperor made the primarchs out of mini warp gods, or some kind of warp force unique to each one. Corvus ascended to become a daemon prince, not of the chaos gods, but his own personal warp god. I believe Perturabo has done something similar. It also doesn’t conflict with the theory that Perty is just making himself a big dreadnaught suit to keep him alive. His apotheosis is just a part of that.
I don't think saying that machine spirits are AI is shutting down meaningful discussion. It is if you consider that the entire answer to every mystery about them. They're clearly still complex and mysterious, even IF they're AI. The whole concept of pilots fusing mentally with the machine spirit is JUST as interesting if it's an AI, if for different reasons.
Yea, I fully subscribe to some machine spirits being A.I., but some are not or not just A.I..
The most basic level machine spirits are possibly just superstition and the tendency to humanize machines (the crancy printer that needs tapping before it starts).
Others are A.I.. Others are warp stuff mixed with A.I. Or demons of order.
I think humanity's belief in machine spirits has created them in some form but yeah, I still believe it's mostly A.I. Whether it's A.I that's been corrupted and fractured to think it's apart of some machine god, or it's just manipulating humanity for whatever reason, or some other reason, I just like this theory more.
@@Valdor_Ate_My_Hamsterwe are but his attacks seemed to feel more personal rather than general against anyone who disagrees with his perspective
@@wilsontheknightThr cool part of Warhammer is that "Everythinf is canon, not everything is true"
In many gaurd books a sinple thing like a Valve is considered "Arcane"
So its just as possible that it is AI...but eveyone is so uneducated in the 41st Millenium that things like thinking machines are just "Magic" lol
Wasn’t there a short story about about an empty dreadnaught that was implied to have an ai that actually controlling and killed an inquisitor to keep his secret?
I really hope they somehow retcon Perturabo becoming a demon. Not because of anything lore related but because a Primarch Dreadnought would be badass
Hellbrute obliterator
Bro imagine ferrus Manus as a dreadnought.
@@blacksabbath5300 when two dreadnoughts fight, is it called 'boxing'?
@@blacksabbath5300 Ferrus Manus v Perturabo Dreadnought duel the next returning primarchs??? That's my theory. My worst fan theory.
@@MagpieTheConqueror ok but for real, that would be badass. Or a sanguinius dreadnought...
Actually, the missing legions being made for homebrew armies is itself a fan theory. At least, it wasn't the initial intent. We also do know some substantial things about them like Rick Priestly stating that being erased was "not a punishment but a reward - rather than being purged they were being absolved - and this was based on the assumption they had done something utterly terrible (naturally!) but then done something equally positive to earn redemption."
I heard the lost legions are a reference to the missing legions of Rome.
Yeah, there definitely was a research failure on some of these
I just wish GW would come up with 2 new Legions, and just make them non imperial supporting, and non Xeno supporting. Make them something wholly different
this is not true; golden demon '91 literally had a contest for best lost thingie 2 and I'm p sure they repeated it a couple of times before 3rd
I think Majorkill has a pretty solid theory about one of the lost legions being the actual target of the Rangdan Xenocides.
Wes! I know you'll read this. I was thinking, we always hear about psykers and how dangerous they are. How about a video on how the imperium handles psykers? And some of their actual abilities. Just an idea. Keep up the awesome work!
I like the fact: That after all these years, we are still discussing where the tyranids come from & why they are arriving here.
GW hasn't done much right over the last few years. (particularly in regards to the community) but storytelling is what they do, & have done a phenomenal job by not, doing so with the tyranids.
Well done GW.
I think the first one about Sanguinius and Horus actually has some things going for it. The entire legacy of the blood angels is about them hiding this dark ‘secret’ that has tarnished their gene-line forever, almost every battle featuring a blood angels character with any ally has some internal dialogue with the marine desperately holding back their will to just rip, tear, and drink the blood of everything around them.
It would be thematically appropriate for their primarch to succumb to this rage at the most pivotal point with the most pivotal characters. It also makes no sense at all that the emperor would hold back against Horus in the current context, but against Sanguinius? I could absolutely see that.
I agree completely. There is also nothing stopping them from flavoring it as sanguinius defeating horus, but the emperor landing the final blow after being forced to put down sanguinius.
@@Valdor_Ate_My_Hamsterit isnt even necessary for the BA to know Sangy attacked the emperor, he could have seen the emperor as Horus due to the rage.
it does have some merit. The blood angels having collective mental breakdown from what happenes in lore is blown out of proportion. Sanguinius going mad mortally wounding his father works much better for all of sanguinieses sons beeing mentally fucked.
It is heavily implied both in the lore but also because they are written as direct parallels to each other, that the red thirst and black rage were both psychically imprinted on the legion as a direct result of Sanguinius freaking out. Which means he likely did go into the black rage against Horus. It is explicitly stated he cant beat Horus though, he knows if he refuses to join Horus he dies. He can reliably see the future too so that should really be the end of that theory. The problem is combining the two theories, because only one of them is supported by the lore.
@Luminousreign old lore stated the Sangy simply couldn't see past his confrontation with Horus, so he assumed that was his death. I don't know if any new lore has specifically stated otherwise.
I know most of the evidence points towards Perturabo having become a demon prince but I do still think it's more interesting to have one of them not be yet another dumb primarch that fell prey to the chaos gods plots. Like it'd be cool for me if the traitors had a Corvus Corax equivalent. When space marines saw what Corcus was capable of they believed him to be a demon just like their primarch but it was said by Lorgar that he wasn't and by Corvus that he'd simply embraced the true form of a primarch. So I think it'd be cool if Perturabo had, had a similar transformation, very demon like but ultimately not. Except in his case he uses his gained power to still fight on the traitors side and indeed uses his new gained powers to bend chaos in some way to his will. An ascended primarch for the loyalists and an ascended primarch for the traitors.
Aye. Perty embracing his inner warp diety of tantrums and saltiness 😅
It is meant to be ambiguous. People just feel strongly one way or the other. There is only one god for perty and it is iron. He talks about the traitor primarchs like they are disgusting idiots for going full demon lol.
Or have him continually upgrade himself closer to a corrupted man of iron to reflect the iron hands. Even the stuff written about him ascending could be retconned. It's not like GW hasn't done large changes in the past to sell more plastic.
He doesn't need to have fallen prey to the chaos gods. From what I've heard about him, it would make sense that if there's a way to become a demon without their intervention, and he found it, he'd use it. Could be just a chaos unaligned demon that is being corrupted not by the gods, but by chaos itself.
I find this Schrodinger's daemon primarch situation very pleasant.
Either we get a cool villain out of it if Perty indeed is still not a daemon.
Or, I get even more confirmation that no one that ever deals with Chaos in the slightest way gets away with it.
Just the thought of all the "Iron Within, Iron Without" fanboys having to swallow the disgusting pill that even their primarch ended up a slave to Darkness fills me with petty satisfaction.
I actually don't mind the Sanguinius theory for two reasons I feel like his darker side is something that was explored more during the heresy and for me personally it makes more sense that the Emperor would hesitate to kill a loyal son than he would for Horus. Still though fun and intresting video!
Yeah I could imagine him being possessed by Khorne but was stopped by Horus who was briefly freed of chaos influence and then had the Emperor killed him
Respectfully disagree with the dislike of Sang/Horus/Emp theory. Played Blood Angels since 2nd ed, only heard of the theory this year and kinda love it. Twist for sure but would fit perfectly with existing lore, gaps and potential cover ups. If being a BA wasn’t tragic enough before, this takes it to a whole new level
Imo the twist is 100% the brand of grimdark for warhammer. I also feel like it does add things to the universe, the dying moments of sanguinius that blood angels see in the black rage is completely recontextualized
The one theory I liked about the missing primarchs was one of them being raised on a xenos world as one of them.
And when the crusade reached them they chose their adoptive people.
Interesting, maybe the reason nobody talks about them but people know about the Horux Heredy is because back them the Emperor and Malcadof were around to mindwipe and erase all records Imperium wide but with Mslcador dead and the Emperor unable to leave the Goldfn Theone that did not happen.
Also the scale of it all, half of the primaries going around destroying the galaxy is quite the task.
Nobody knows the other primarchs existed other than the primarchs at this point in lore. That we know of
@@RMCbreezy
What about the Highlirds of Holy Terra?
The Minotar chapter appeared there and they have a varied Genesee. I think some youtuber or another said that the Primaris were also there but possibly before the arrival of Gilliman. Not sure.
I'd anyone would know about those two Primarchs would be the Highlords, any inhabitant from their world who kept a record but was not present when it happened and the adeptus mechanicus from those days (assuming one is alive or left a record).
So they chose the blue people only to get shit stomped? That’s an anticlimactic story.
Well the theory was that the race in question would be something like the rangdan
So yeah they got stomped.
But it took a whole lot of boots to do it and they almost wiped out the first legion in the process.
I think the Sanguinius theory is really Warhammery, being that there is no glory in war and even the purest people can fall and become monsters.
Absolutely! Sanguinius was an absolute beast but couldn't defeat the chaos buffed Horus without letting go and going full berserker on him. Sanguinius had managed to prevent this from happening to him through discipline and self-control, but the urge had always been there and, when it meant the difference between losing all of humanity to chaos he went all out and killed his own brother but had no chance to rein himself in again. That's why The Emperor was caught off-guard, that's he was mortally wounded by his golden angel of a son, that's why he couldn't put himself to put him down and, eventually, had to erase him forevermore - thus traumatising his whole bloodline with their primarch's dying urge, to kill Horus for the sake of the humanity.
I don’t think it’s character sabotage, that’s for sure, and Sanguinius is my favourite character. It explains why The Emperor would let “Horus” mortally wound him, when there’s no reason in-lore as of right now.
But c’est la vie
@@brandonobrien6201 I do agree, Horus completely annihilated the Emperor and he did nothing until a nobody protected him, I feel that is a pretty weak plot line and people came out with the Sanguinius idea because of that.
It’s awful and completely ruins his character
@@joshley1320 Buddy, do you in earnest believe this or have you given yourself no chance to consider it?
The conspiracy being the truth and the version we got being the cover up makes so much more sense.
As for Tyranids being incarnation of pure, soulless force, there was once a time when Necrons were such threat, and then GW gave them backstories
I have such mixed feelings about that because the Necrons filled that will so well but their story is good so... I don't hate it?
@@GregStraub42 I also don't hate it. I just wanted to point that in time we could get an evolution/expansion of Tyranids concept, similar to what we saw in case of Necrons
Yeah that's why I honestly don't hate the idea of the nids running from something either. It seems fine to me. The Old Ones and the Necron conflict is pretty cool and I kinda feel like it makes them the cooler soulless force since Nids really are just 'hungry bug.' Necrons are still a soulless, galactic threat, they're just fun to read about where the nids are just scary canon fodder.
I have resigned myself to the RetconNecron, but man, I do not *not* like it more than what we had before.
@@northerner3861 The soulless unstoppable force of nature trope of the necrons was already covered by the tyranids. And the eldritch far reaching gods trope of the c'tan was already covered by Chaos. The necrons now are something that 40k didn't have before. They have effective means to combat the Tyranids and Chaos, they could potentially save the galaxy. But they lack the altruism to truly be heroic in any sense as far as the more traditional good guys could be concerned. They're a source of simultaneous hope and fear. Maybe they'll stop the bigger threats, but will they then turn out to be worse?
Like daemon engines that forgo their allegiances after being made into a machine, I can see the same happening to Perty. I can see him becoming a daemon prince, and attaching himself to a great machine and staving off the pissed off gods.
Man if these are what you call the worst then the 40k community must be artists beyond measure
Fan theory: None of it is real, it's all been one very long very bad acid trip in some hippie's head in the back of a van.
@@flithbrinNone of it is real (I have been living in an asylum for the past 10 year because I ate 12 people without mercy)
@@Crusher888nothing is real im the last man alive and i just have a very creative imagination
@@conradlorgar5508make it stop.
@@alastor8091 nothing is real, this comment is all in your head.
As a Star Trek fan, I translated Machine Spirit = Ai the first time I read about the lore in the early 2000s. It just seems so natural, and all the examples you gave (Titans refusing to fight, ships communicating etc) would be exactly what I would expect a sentient autonomous ai would be able and expected to do. As for the religious rituals, they could actually be maintenance or activation protocols highly mythologized, or the AI could be corrupted to the point of thinking it is a machine spirit.
It is fair and more than okay to hate and disagree with it. And it's fantasy in the end. But the reasoning against it does not unfortunately hold well enough.
Also I think the "blank slate" legions is no longer the consensus, especially since 30K came to the fore. I think it was what the creators originally intended, but I am fairly sure it's no longer canon. That said, I agree 100%. Leave them as a mystery.
I 100% agree, they should remain a mystery but believe in an interview one of the people who wrote them in said that they wrote them for the mystery and that the various unnamed chapters were the ones meant for player made chapters.
The Perty theory I could see going either way in all honesty. I could see Sanguinius giving into the Black Rage before he was killed which could’ve caused the affliction in his sons. I also have a theory that one of Vulkan’s relics might be able to resurrect sanguinius
i love the purtarabo theory it makes him more interesting than if he was just another undivided deamon primarch
Especially sense the undivided Deamon matriarchs dont do jack all in the story.
Konrads dead lorgar is hiding/scheming. alpharius/omegon is also scheming. Perturabo is uhhhh
There are no other deamon primarch like purtarabo the others are dead and lorgar is the weakest and most cowardly primarch
@@langleysenterprise5134probably off experimenting, growing his strength, trying to recover from the wound his fag brother gave him, and scheming.
I think he's attempting to do something different while using the power. He either could become a daemon, trying to reject the truth of the situation, or maybe he does something actually different. He could become his own distinct power using that of the warp. But as for my theory, vashtorr. I think eventually vashtorr will succeed in his ascension and perturabo is PERFECT for him.
i always assumed that Pertarabo's chosen daemon form was that of a giant robotic warmachine.
that always made sense to me.
I never believed that all the Daemons would all look like big organic monsters. Chaos is based off your emotions and personality and Pertorabo was a cold almost machine like type of person so it makes so much sense for his ascended form to reflect that. If anything Having Daemona being more than just mutated monsters in appearance opens the range up so much more.
How did you manage to misspell Perturabo twice in different incorrect ways
Gulliman and Yvraine having a secret sexual relationship is something i see memed about every day in the community
99% say it as a joke, the 1% that take it seriously are who you need to watch out for.
Most of the fans know that robot girlyman would never touch a woman.
That's just a meme and the community recognizes it as such.
@@Luminousreign "She's not a woman, she's a holy half dead who's seen the underverse"
(Chronicles of Riddick) XD
An interpretation of "the Tyranids are running" theory I've always liked is they're not running - they're racing.
The Tyranids we see in the galaxy are basically a pack who got here first ahead of other packs of Tyranids.
It's very similar to the scout Tyranid theory but I think the idea of competing Tyranid packs fighting with each other is more entertaining
I like the idea that at least some of what has been attributed to the Machine Spirits has been misunderstood AI, however, I also like the idea that the Mechanicus' belief is actually responsible in a weird recursive way for the feats of many machine spirits, kind of like the relationship between Mork/Girl and the Orks
On the topic of the missing Primarchs, there are some details we know about them. The second was one hell of a prideful bastard and the eleventh was well-liked by a lot of his brothers, we also have some evidence that if both were around during the Heresy, the Loyalists would've already lost according to Dorn (though this might just be Malcador being a prick as he was the one to return the memories). There's also evidence pointing to the fact that the Eleventh is still alive and is held beneath the Imperial Palace in the vaults that give even Custodes PTSD, though this last piece is pure conjecture at the moment.
Can Weshammer cover how TTS by Bruva Alfabusa has shaped the wider 40K community ?
Brutal Alfabusa was doing the Lord's work with TTS.
Who? Ive ever heard of that person before
@@jrr7031Bruva Alfabusa is a youtuber who made a show called if the Emperor had a text to speech device. It gives a satirical view from the Emperor if he were to wake up in 40k.
@raistlarn6212 oh. From what i can tell it must have been shut down?
@@jrr7031 nah. He just stopped making them when GW went on their purge of youtube creators when they were putting together their subscription service.
All I want to know about the Lost Legions is what could have possibly have happened to make them to be fully stricken from Imperial records when characters like Horus and Abbadon still remain. I dont even need to know WHAT it was, just something else on that scale.
They believed in some xenos superiority and become their servants or something like that. Some xenoloving stuff is only possible thing for me. Or they Just become wiped out from existence by retcon Guns
So, you want info on what it means to be 'lost' and 'damned' (is that what they are?) Rather than the specifics of what happened to the lost primarchs
@@ragnarian Precisely.
After the Horus Heresy, who was left to perform the mind wipe of the entire galaxy? Malcador was dead and nobody else could do it.
Ok I think Wes doesn't understand why people like the Sanguinius theory. It's not a twist for the sake of twist, it's to contextualize why the emperor didn't just annihilate Horus two seconds into the fight, he had no love left for Horus who had betrayed him so thoroughly but he did have love for Sanguinius the primarch he saw as closest to perfection. It keeps the emperor as having some love for his sons, explains why he hesitated and was wounded so thoroughly and it gives Sanguinius another big W to keep his big ballin status.
That aztec space marrine at 10:29 is so cool.
Can you possibly do a video about your favorite interpretations of the 2 missing legions and their primarchs?
My theory is the 2nd and 11th Primarchs deleted the Emperor's porn stash he hoarded over the millennium. The Emperor was pissed and embarrassed. Hence the memory deletions and why their legions were not at fault.
I love the fan art of the Mayan/Aztec inspired Space Marine. I might have to learn how to 3d model to throw together some models to print.
Big disagree on first one: not only does it highlight humanity of Sanguineous (as he finally crumbled under all that weight), and not only is the imagine of Chaos-juiced Horus shitting himself in front of Sangi, but it also gives Emperor a chance to act like a father: he lied to keep memory of his son alive.
When it comes to the missing primarches, i personally love the idea that one of them landed in what would become Tau territory and they could be using the etherals as their emissaries. Slowly realizing he was apart of the imperium and seeing what it has become and the Tau "for the greater good" thing is his attempt at making a working imperium. I know it extremely far fetched but as a Tau and Dark Angels collector i would love it
Doesn't really work when you take into account that the ethereals only came about in M36
something something malice, something something 11
@bensarchett8416 I think it could still work. Like that's how long it took that primach to have a functional etheral. It is probably the most far fetched thing in the 40k universe but I think it'd be a interesting plot line
I feel like kharn is a good character now because it shows what chaos corruption does to you it turned him from an honorable warrior to a savage
it tends awaken the true side of a character, and given that every faction in 40k is evil...
@@MuvLuv agreed
But it didnt... Kharn went from honorable to genocidal murderer - his book where he burns his whole legion for not wanting to sit in a storm is sooo dumb
Like imagine chaos karne that still maintained his sense of honor and fair combat but still could fall to the khorne rage when pushed for awesome moments
@ethanhopkins3263 I understand your point but i believe that his character is meant to show how chaos corruption brings down a person that's what I think the whole point of the character you can disagree but that's how I interpreted his fall to chaos
@@lemanrussprimarchofthespacewol thats always been a point of chaos.... having entire legions, planets, alien species, sections of the galaxy fall is point enough they can absolutely allow us to keep some characters at least similar to the core....
Kharne sucks and has been reduced to a meat head
Though juiced by chaos Horus was still a primarch and no match for big E whom point and point prove that he can be harsh if someome goes against his will, it makes more sense that he hesitate to kill black rage sangi rather than corrupted traitor horus
In the End and the Death Volume 1, Horus is revealed to be insanely powerful and on the verge of becoming the 5th chaos god. While Malcador is on the golden throne giving him sight to everything he realizes how powerful Horus had become and says the emperor might have hesitated rushing to face him if he had known what horus had become.
So a Horus who's getting a full-powered blessing from all four Chaos gods who gave him a not insignificant portion of their power to make him equal to the Emperor using a Chaos empowered weapon against the Emperor is somehow less believable than Sanguinius (who wanted the Primarchs to all die, apparently, and knew that he would die to Horus specifically) somehow wounding the Emperor so badly that he needed to go to the Golden Throne even though the Emperor could heal a simple stab wound or two from a normal spear.
@@starhammer5247 the 40k community.
@@starhammer5247Yes.
Nag the latest HH book mentioned that Horus was more powerful than Big E and was about to become the 5th chaos God. The imperium barely won.
Telling someone to read the Heresy or Siege is a huge ask, its an obscene time committment, but you should check out the scene where Perturabo tells Horus's equerry he's leaving the Siege in Mortis. Its super dramatic, and borders on Shakesperean, but its a great look at Perturabo's complex views on chaos.
Perturabo becoming a deamon is the same as Mortarion becoming a psyker. They both ended up as the very thing they hated. Its chaos's crual ironic reward.
I don't think he Sanguinius theory is that bad or that there are no indications that it could be true. Big E is established in the Horus Heresy as a bad guy from the begining, imo. He doesn't love his sons, he is using them and probably intended to discard them or consume them in some way. So his love for Horus preventing him from killing him makes no sense, because he's a bastard that never loved Horus to begin with. Something's up in that part of the story, there is room for the fan theory.
Also my fan theory is that the emperor wasn't the top dog of the imperium, it was the sigile order through Malcador, and the emperor convinced Malcador to sit in the golden throne to get rid of him so he could be free.
My least favourite fan theory is the Tyranids are running from something. I think it doesn’t make sense since the Nids are coming from all directions and if they were running they wouldn’t be invading and going to war in such a way
AFAIK it's not fan theory, but it's stated in a 'nids codex somewhere, prolly the 5E one because that's the last 'nids codex I read
That's literally just point number 2 in the video
I agree, but it could be reworked into something good, like "the Tyrannids are doomed to extinction because of some kind of genetic disorder that inevitably emerges after eons of organic life passed, and the way they found to prevent it from annihilating them in the long run is to constantly be on the move and assimilate new organic life".
@@funramgenetic flaw? From the organism that rewrite thier genome on the fly? Dude lol.
The only flaw would be the constant hunger. But Tiamat disproves that too.
@@skepticalmagos_101 Not "genetic flaw". "Genetic disorder that inevitably emerges after eons of life". Which, by the way, is a real thing : if we lived for eons, our constantly rebuilding organism would accumulate many problems, the most evident being that each time a cell replicates it looses a bit of genetic information.
I personally love the idea of sanguinius falling to the black rage I know it won’t add much to the overall story but it sounds so cool you should do a more in depth video about this topic
Khorne has always wanted to earn his worship, I wonder if it could turn out that way that Khorne possessed him and attempted to take down the Emperor only to be stopped by Horus, given the part of lore I heard that Horus realised that he was being controlled by chaos influence and was able to break free for only a moment
made a (probably) cringy post about how it could change and add to things
@@MuvLuvbad fanfic ahoy!
@@tincano-beans2114naah, its better than the Emperor feeling hesitant about killing Horus for some reason, which makes no sense to me given how cold and ruthless he can be against his sons, especiallyif their on Horus' side. But the Emperor hesitating to kill a loyal primarch who is beloved by the imperium and the Emperor? Now that makes alot more sense to me. Remember, Sanguinius falling to the black rage and then attacking the Emperor would make sense, since blood angels who fall to the black rage have been known to attack and even kill their own allies, simply because they cannot control their rage.
The only issue with that theory that everyone seems to conveniently ignore is that Sang couldn't have obliterated Horus's soul. Which would, in turn, make it so Horus isn't actually fully dead and could return in the future
The sanguinus falling to the blackrage theory isnt bad. It helps explain why the emperor didnt kill horus immediately. Even the best of primarchs couldnt hold a candle to big E, and big E wouldnt hesitate to kill one of his own "sons" however he would hesitate to kill sangunuis if he was still loyalist but just instead in a beserker rage. Having to put down sanguinus would also explain the emporer having to banish the kind sincere part of him. And it could feasibly happen, there was a few points in the lore where sanguinus was tempted or coaxed into falling into a rage like state.
I’ve always thought that the Sanguinious theory would be fun if instead of “FALLING” he instead sacrifices himself by embracing his darkness and then using the last of his will to let The Emperor destroy him.
the sanguinius one is hilarious, a supercharged horus defeated by just an angry dude
I think the only way he lost legions can be touched on lore wise is to let it be an anthology of stories from the perspective of an alpha legionnaire abd filled with both truths and lies based on the breadcrumbs we've been given so far.
this is honestly a fucking good one cause it definitely plays with alpha legion lore.
There is some pretty cool stuff on thr lost legions
They drop some cool hints the Fabius Bile series..like Trayzn fought the 2nd Primarch
@@adrienwatson2179turns out trazyn just has the entire second legion primarch and all in a petting zoo somewhere in his collection😂
@@leodesalis5915 He actually tried to capture the 2nd Primarch but failed
Apparently he coulsnt beat him lol
That was one of the reasons he was so excited to get Fulgrim, a Primarch is like...the ONE thing he failed to capture....the guy has a Titan Legio and a bloody Krork lmao
@@adrienwatson2179 nah he just loved his new addition to the collection he wanted a new one but purple and rapey 😂😂
Ah yes the humble AI of the Lasgun....Sometimes fans completely forget that we are on par or above Tzeentch with the information we know and have accessible to us.
In one of the gaunts ghosts books, one of the characters loses his gun while in a temporary penal regiment, so picks up a chaos cultists gun because the commissar was coming...and the punishment for losing a gun was death
That gun was outright cursed...misfiring, overcharging, in accuracy even right after being maintained or cleaned
Kind of like the Lamenters luck, but specifically on this gun
Its all hearsay and legend
But its "Canon" that Lasguns manufactured at different places are less reliable because the proper blessings havnt been bestowed.
The cool thing about 40k is "Canon" is subjective to quote The Black Library..."Everything is canon, not everything is true"
So it could be as simple as a certain manufactorum is just bad at producing guns, so they are crappy and inconsistent.
The average Imperial citizen views ANY technology as "Arcane"
To the point where you need to say "The ministrations of percussive remedy" before you hit a machine to make it work
While I agree AI takes it too far as a blanket explanation, it seems pretty obvious that the machine spirit dogma is filling in lost knowledge. Humans in the Dark Age of Technology used to be far more advanced than they anything in the setting proper, and post-Heresy "invention" is focused on discovery of old tech, not invention of new.
Take the whole armoring ritual for Astartes. There's the whole long form ceremony, shorter versions for emergencies... And then plenty of cases where marines just put on their armor and fight, without saying the prayers or anointing the armor or burning incense. In the Caiphas Cain novels Cain will occasionally use proper rituals or litanies when using a machine, but he speaks of them with vague disdain and actually mentions skipping them when he already knows what to do, or skipping them when repeating something he did before - to him the whole religious aspect of machines is a neumonic device.
Rituals to codify operation without understanding are a familiar thing in human history. The Catholics have a whole elaborate ritual called the Blessing of The Throats which actually has a small but measurable medical benefit. You can skip having oils on your face and lit candles crossed at your heart and the whole Litany of Saint Blaise and just breathe in incense smoke like many people in Asia do and get the full benefit. However some medieval priest figured out that when you do these 45 things in a row only a third of your village gets influenza that season instead of half, and so they kept doing all 45 even though only two of them actually do anything.
Some events in 40k (even some mentioned in the video) make sense for an AI to be behind them, but many others make more sense if you look past the idea of the machine having it's own will. The Titan didn't refuse to fight because you failed to appease it's Machine Spirit by skipping part of the Prayer of Activation. It couldn't fight because you skipped part of the pre-startup checklist and some set of switches was in the wrong position at an important step and now the targeting computer isn't feeding to the gun mounts. But the whole thing was built from a Standard Template Construct and the maintenance manuals are all in some weird dead language and aside from the Emperor himself the last person who actually knew the underlying theory of the control system died in M25, so instead of understanding you have rites and rituals handed down as sacred generational knowledge, representing the same knowledge but in a different format.
I don't see this as a fan theory more than a feature of the setting, getting away from the high technology super science of Star Trek or Star Wars. Where Dune asked the question, "Could people built a space empire without technology?" 40k asks the question, "Could people still maintain a space empire when they've lost the knowledge used to build it?" And both make internal sense from their shared backstory of machine overlords - humans in both 40k and Dune at some point did none of their own work or thinking, and then after some nebulous event in the far past were put back in command of their own destiny.
@@Hevach This is such a great way of explaining many things in 40k
People have no concept of anything really.
If a bullet misses you, you may think its the Emperor peotecting you, but more than likely, they just. missed etc
I have a theory about the Tyranids that I've talked about before on this channel. The idea is that in reality the tyranids are not just a terrifying force that plans to devour the galaxy, but the immune system of the universe (the materium). Our galaxy would only be a cancerous cell infected by chaos which must be emptied of all life in order to prevent the infection from affecting the rest of the body.
Even though I don't think this theory is true it would explain a lot of things: like why the tyrannids come from every direction, because they exist in all the galaxy as the immune system. Or why the Hive mind is so powerful, because it’s the soul of the universe.
And with the Cicatrix maledictum we can see why, imagine it continues to grow to a galaxy size, it will be a threat for the all univers.
I personally like the Tyranid theory. I dont think them running away from something even larger hurts them in anyway because no matter how you cut it, they're still an existential threat. But the idea that there something else out there that's even worst than them and we dont know what it is, that's the type of thing that would keep you up at night.
I’m in the same boat. It may be a kinda stupid theory, but I kind of like it. Plus, having the largest threat to the galaxy be running away from something worse would be pretty grim dark.
Although I like the concept, imo the idea of the nids is that they are The Apex Predator. They are the hunt, the hunger, the perfect organism wholly designed to kill and consume. They *are* the top of the food chain.
The idea that there's something even stronger hunting them suggests that they're not on the top of the food chain, which takes away from their whole deal.
I like the idea that the tyranids are an inherently failed species, because even when they succeed, they lose. It will be just the hivemnind in a dead universe. And then what? In the end it would probably just kill itself after some time, because there is nothing to do anymore.
Perturabo: "I am a being of perfect logic."
Perturabo fans: "OMG He said he's a being of perfect logic, just like I say I am! Therefore, it must be true!"
It's almost like Perturabo and his fans share a particular failing or something.
I disagree about the missing Primarchs. For me I don't care about it being a mystery. I just want a story.
The story will always dissapoint the mystery is much better
@@daveeol1987 I disagree. I like the story. The issue is that they have to keep the story stagnant. That is the issue with the story.
I have theory that the birth of slaanesh actually drew the tyranids instead of the overloading of the Pheous Becon during the Horus Heresy. It makes sense to me considering how far they have to travel from galaxy to galaxy without enhanced space travel. Honestly the war in heaven could have drawn them as well considering we don't know how old the nids actually are or where they came from.
Yeah, i've always through that, considering how long it would take to go from one galaxy to another, the Tyranids have been heading for the milky way since long before humanity was even a thing.
I don`t think is could be from the war in heaven, beyond that it would be an absolutely TERRIBLE MARK (necrons, eldar god, eldar and such), there FTL is based on science BS that basically makes them go EXTREMELY fast, like faster then webway fast, like several times the speed of light, but its inaccurate so they can only go 99% of the way before having to VERY slowly make there way to the target the good old fashioned way, if they were travelling to another galaxy then the time between would be cut so much as too make the travel time only 10000 years, which granted is really long when you consider that less then 1% of the travel time
The war in heaven was so long ago that any Tyranids it alerted likely already tried to eat the galaxy and got shit on by the eldar empire while they had 60 million years as the galaxy’s superpower.
As for the birth of slaanesh, it’s possible that it worked in tandem with the Pharos device, as one would create a massive ripple of emotion that shows them the galaxy is populated with sapient life and the flash of the Pharos showed them life was abundant enough that galaxy spanning wars could be fought
I doubt Tyranids even existed back during the times of the war in heaven, at least the way we know them today.
60 million years is a LOOONG time.
Don’t tyranids have wormhole space travel ?
My fan theory: wh40k universe actually just exists in the imagination of the emperor. As he developed the universe, people wanted more and more and now just has to spend all his time making more and more grimdark stuff to the never ending hunger of the fans.
I hate things like this
Emperor is Azathoth confirmed?
The 1st one on this list is dumb. Sanguinius falling to the black rage, killing horus, then for him to mortality wound the emperor who didn't want to hurt his true favorite son. Is a great ending and would be one of the biggest holy shit moments in warhammer history.
Perturabo not being a daemon is exactly what I as a Iron Warriors player want. I want him to be greater than giving into it.
As a fan of the iron warriors, i completly agree. I want to see at least one of the traitor primarchs not be a demon. The only we had before was Konrad and he’s dead so…
My least favourite fan theory is that Kaldor Draigo is actually just freaking insane and that’s why he’s survived in the warp. I like Kaldor being one of the few “good guys” in an other wise grim dark setting. I actually find the few bright points to help make the setting even darker honestly.
That's why I hate the saying "There are no good guys in 40k". This statement is inherently misleading. What is meant is that there are little-to-no good _factions_ in 40k. 40k has _plenty_ of good people in it, but they live in a bad world that far overshadows them, and no good deed goes unpunished in the 41st millennium.
Having a universe where there’s literally no positives in it would be hard to pull off without it being so edgy it’s cringe and just kinda bad writing imo. The few rays of hope and goodness 40k does have is more realistic and reflects the inherent hope and goodness that humanity does have and how at least people can and will fight back against such impossible odds.
I'm still in the camp that things Kaldor was a terrible addition to the lore full stop.
I completely disagree with your first take. It makes far less sense that the Emporer was too sentimental to just destroy Horus.
The 'running from something worse' trope is precisely the backstory used in Stellaris for the endgame crisis 'Pretyhoryn swarm'. I doubt the swarm has roots older than the tyranid theory, but I'm guessing lately that they may influence fan theories, in both directions...
What about the theory that Angron actually had died on Nuceria with his clan and the Emperor resurrected him? This would explain why the Red Angel did not exude an aura that other primarchs did.
The War in Heaven didn't actually destroy the Old Ones, it destroyed chiropractors. That's why there are so many hunched backs in 40K.
Sanguinius killing Horus and wounding the emperor is my favourite fan theory and has been my head cannon for years,
I could see Puerterabo returning in league with Vashtorr. Maybe he's become akin to a demon engine?
No he should be like what Corax has become, his true warp nature revealed, turning him into what he always has been, a being made from the warp with out being a Deamon, just like Corax has become.
Peter would never sell his soul to Vashtorr. Peter probably stuck a deal with or is Vashtorr.
If I may ask, what's your opinions on both the Dornian Heresy & Roboutian Heresy?
theory 1: besides that it makes no sense to exist, it is absolutely possible, since nothing even close to a reliable narrator exists in any warhammer media. we have been shown this to many times, to not accept it as true.
theory 2: indeed the easiest way to reject this one is the fact that you don't flee to one central point, makes no sense logically.
theory 3: the only problem i see here, is that anyone would know, machine spirits are in fact AI. even if it would be just the higher echelon. you could argue that parareligious rites to appease machine spirits are nothing more then highly convoluted passwords.
entry 4: has no place in a "worst" fan theories list
theory 4: yea, it's just wrong, plain as that.... if we chose trust the narrator. here is my theory: perturabo is vashtorr.
2:50 to skip the sponsor ad and get to the actual content. :)
Thank you, brother
I like the Sangy theory. I think it could be made into such a dark and heartfelt tragedy. Could be made so compelling and heartbreaking. Like I wouldn’t like to see him go completely bat shit crazy but deep haaaaatred that just takes over him and Big E’s like not today big man!
Well if Sanguinius did fall to the black rage then it would not be out of the question for him to attack the Emperor, since blood angels who fall to the black rage have been known to attack and even kill their own allies, simply because they cannot control their rage. It would also make a hell of a lot more sense for the emperor to hesitate to kill Sanguinius than Horus.
@@sebastianhovenas272 imagine the moment the Emperor hesitates 😭 could be written amazingly
@@granthill837 totally agree dude! It would be the biggest wtf moment of the entire Horus heresy, and likely the most tragic
So with later lore about how supposedly BIG E put powerfull warp entities into the primarchs, and that sanguineous might have had two in him and he was roughly what was keeping that balance in the blood angles, and now black rage runs rampant more than before, why arent other primarch deaths impacting their legions with such a psychic backlash?
I was mostly just hoping there was a renegade primach that hasn't gone full evil demon mode. I want a primarch that recognizes that the imperium isn't worth supporting, but at the same time realizes that chaos is a much worse alternative.
That was always my theory for one of them, that when the Emperor showed up he simply said, "No thanks"
We do have one . Our silly red Magnus. He's the only demon primarchs who didn't voluntarily wanted tentacles and smelly breath. Tzeench had him for a while yet , because he's kinda a scumbag, ended up being trapped in an impossible situation
Pretty much what happened with Konrad Curze. He despised the Imperium but didn't give in to Chaos specifically - same with the legion in the main (as portrayed incredibly well in the AD-B Night Lords trilogy), where demon posessions and Chaos devotees were despised or outright shunned.
Curze was so incredibly cynical and cruel that he also equally despised submission to / worship of Chaos gods the same way as he despised devotion to the Emperor - witness his equal dismissal of Lorgar as he did Manus and Corax; he thought Lorgar was utterly pathetic for simply swapping one worship for another, and hated the 'borrowed power' of Chaos.
He just sided with Horus under the promise of freedom from the Empire and the joy of absolute Nihilism/pissing off Emps; hence he never became a Daemon Prince and just kinda fecked off when the battle for Terra turned south.
One theory I came to myself before I saw it on the internet, that the chaos gods seem to correspond to a race
And by that I mean that it seems that a race is tied to one in some way or another
I've always liked the idea that the tyrannids are technically running from something, But less innocence that they are fleeing a greater threat and more that they have been spooked like a herd of cattle.
Regarding Perturabo being a demon, Corvus Corax is pretty much an example of embracing his warp origins circumventing the chaos gods. If Corvus could do it, couldn't Perturabo have done something similar?
No, because Chaos and the Warp are different things.
Chaos comes from the Warp and is part of it, but not all the Warp is chaotic, which is why psykers can use it without being corrupted if properly trained.
Corvus has mastered the primarch part of him that comes from the Warp.
Perturabo was under the corrupting influence of Chaos, his mind already twisted from "Chaos is a liability" to "I can control Chaos, I can rule over it..." The exact line of thinking all arrogant slaves of the Dark Gods adopt before being permanently shackled one way or another.
Even more perfect timing than the last few times, I just got out of work and I get this wonderful content
I love how you take the time to explain the theory in your lore voice. Im like, "yeah that makes sense, very cool!" And then you shut it down! :D atleast you gave them a chance. Love the content!
I like the theory of sanguinis was the one who killed horus. It makes much more sense why his whole chapter falls to the black rage, it also makes much more sense why the god emperor who has shown to be a cold person and not care about killing his creations (thunder warriors) for some reason felt bad about horus and let his guard down on the clearly crazy demon crazy dude
One of my favorites is how Malcador was the real emperor.
TBH I would love to know the missing primarcs and their legions, and I don't believe it would ruin anything
It would be nice to know but if they fuck it up and make it weak storywise... It would detract from the setting
What do you think about the theory that Fulgrim is still possessed by the deamon and is just pretending that he’s back in control? This would explain why Fulgrim’s clone actually worked out, as his soul would still theoretically be out there. However it can also be disproven by Fulgrim’s POV in books like Angle Exterminatus where he seems to be back in control, but at the same time maybe the deamon has started thinking that he actual is Fulgrim. I personally don’t really believe in it but what are your thoughts?
I actually think you're completely wrong about the Sanguinius killing Horus theory. The Emperor loved Horus, but knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that he was evil, and not even Horus at that point. Sanguinius had also held eternity gate like a complete madman and had taken down combatants such as Daemon Angron and Ka'Bandha. This was without falling to the black rage. This also would be a decent reason for why the Blood Angels that fall to the black rage see everyone around them as Horus, as that is what allowed Sanguinius the strength needed to kill him. The Emperor would truly be reluctant to kill one of his most loyal and strongest sons, and would explain why he allowed himself to get beaten to hell before finally fighting back-he didn't want to kill his favourite son. It's a twist you wouldn't have seen coming because it is completely and utterly unexpected, and adds a little more grimdark to the situation if you ask me-it is not just a twist for the sake of it.
Sanguinius -
The theory solves a "problem" that isn't really there. The idea is that the Fabulous Hawk Boy was almost the pinnacle of melee combatants - even among the Primarchs - and that if Horus lost to Russ, there's no way that Sanguinius in the midst of a bloody fury could ever lose. It's a "flaw" that ignores a bunch of facts about canon. Horus was empowered since his fight with Russ. Sanguinius's incredible combat skill came partially from premonition, and heavily from discipline. His Primarch Tier Rage would have given the Golden Angel a strength and fury boost as a last ditch effort to overpower Horus's Kaio-Ken x4 - but at the cost of stealing much of his technique and ability to apply his foresight. Which brings the biggest reason: Sanguinius didn't **experience** the Black Rage, the fact that his rage never got satisfaction at the death of Horus **caused** it. It's a solution to a problem that's already answered - in search of a problem not to fill a hole in the lore, but to satisfy some edge-fest demanding more Grimdark. Let one of the Sons be Noblebright, it won't hurt you, there's more than enough edge among the other 19 or 20.
Tyranids -
They're hungry bugs here to eat us. That's all. The only thing "following" them is the rest of the endless swarm. If there was something chasing them here, The Silent King would have mentioned them too, but instead declared the coming threat to be the Tyranids - and **just** the Space Bugs of Death. Cthulhu doesn't have nightmares, just family.
Machine Spirits -
The only way that the spirits are "intelligent" is in the same way that modern "AI" is - they really aren't it's just a pattern that's too complex and interwoven for the humans using them to accurately understand. Now, that may actually extend all the way to being actual souls, they may be microshards of the Void Dragon accidentally implanted by faith in the Omnissiah (unlikely since ctan can't be corrupted, but machine spirits can) or even some sort of tsukumogami-esque proto-soul. The most likely answer is that whatever "regulator chip" goes into a gun to help its wielder use it effectively is pretty much what would be a room sized supercomputer in the modern day. They may be capable of such advanced processing that they can be programmed by speech and intent - hence the rituals and prayers - and thus so unfathomably complex that humans can only comprehend them as "spirits". We already see quirks in modern machines and computers as semi-sentient - and call that phenomenon the "Ghost in the Machine" - so it's easy to imagine that these vastly more complicated items may have something similar - especially things like Titans and Centurions which have direct neural links that can confuse mortal minds even further - up to and including levels of feedback that cause changes in behavior or brain damage. But regardless, the machine spirits can be so much more and more interesting than just "polite AI" - even if that seems to be a line that's hard to distinguish for people like us, that are viewing it all through a lens of incredibly inferior technological understanding.
Lost Primarchs -
Everyone wants concise answers to their settings, and this is a particular hole that everyone wants to see explored. But there's going to be no answer more satisfying than the mystery, even if the holes weren't there on purpose.
Perturabo -
On one hand, "everything is canon, not everything is truth." On the other hand "the ice we skate is getting pretty thin." The basis for this - that the Iron Warriors don't use daemons - misunderstands the logic, and the very hubris behind it. It's not that Perty wants nothing to do with the warp - and that certainly didn't stop Mortarion from ascending, remember - it's that he shares the TTS Emperor's xenophobia. The idea that they can't trust an entity that has a literally alien way of thinking and valuing things. Perturabo doesn't trust the motivations of Daemons - for plenty of good reasons - but he sees the warp and psionics as just another tool to be grasped, bent to his will, and mastered. That includes using it to perfect his own form. In the face of all that canon, there's simply not enough evidence to say that it's not true. Now, that's not to say that he's really just the village bicycle of Daemon Primarchs - there's still good theory as to his independence from Chaos while also drinking the kool aid (and maybe we'll see it from Vashtorr - but that's another theory) but the canon lines up, he's in the warp's hands.
On one hand, they're interesting ideas, and I love the creativity behind them, but at some point a "fan theory" starts turning into "fan fiction" where you need an entire alternate universe to explain how things went so wrong. Don't get me wrong, that can be fun too - the Dornian Heresy is all sorts of amusing - but at some point they need to be differentiated between "I think that would be cool, even if it doesn't make sense" and "I think GW left the door open for this to be possible and/or it might be where the story's heading."
I have to disagree with the 1st video, I feel it makes sanguinius sacrifice even more noble, as he can see the future, so he knows what giving into the black rage will do, but sees no other option. He sees something far worse.
He damns himself, his legion and mankind to stagnation.
It honestly blew my mind as an awesome twist, and is by far, much better than the emperor just letting Horus beat the snot out of him because he suddenly decides he can't hurt Horus. Despite everything that has built up previously regarding it.
I doubt they will take this theory and run with it, I feel sanguinius has been built up so much to make his death more impactful.
The reason sanquinius didn’t fall to the black rage is that the black rage was made because sanquinius was killed
Why would blood angels see Horus killing sanquinius If sanquinius killed Horus
This should have been how Wes disproved these theories
Thank you. This is much better than Wes’ subjective take.
This is like saying the red thirst happened because Sanguinius was knocked out. It ignores that he freaked out right before that and it was that freak out that ended up imprinted on the legion through their psychic connection. I dont think he killed Horus. Sanguinius knew he was going to die if he didnt join Horus, going into a rage wouldnt have changed that. It would be just one of many examples of Sanguinius dropping the facade of nobility for a moment under pressure.
Bingo
The blood angels think they’re sanguinius when they fall I think. They have his consciousness and memories.
Wh40k is one of the few fandoms where i hear people say they dont want certain aspects of lore answered. I understand to a degree loving the mystery and all the "WHAT IF" said mystery creates but to NEVER have something answered would eventually drive me crazy. It'd feel like a unfinished story or a forgotten/ignored plotline. The missing primarchs is one such example that alot of fans dont want explained. Meanwhile im sitting here like I need to know.
Partly agreed. I wouldn't say I want to know everything, but I would like for them to build up the pieces bit by bit until a comprehensive picture forms. Then from there, I would like stories that delve into that picture and give us details about the lost legions, but with the caveat that much if not most of what's written is highly likely to be false information. Basically, I both do and don't want to know more about them. I want the information, but I don't want it to be even reliable.
I feel the same on the Dark Age of Technology.
But if you want more information about the lost legions, Majorkill has a pretty solid theory in his Rangdan Xenocides video.
If they ever do reveal either/both, it needs to have the punch of a mind blowing revelation IMO
Throughout this entire video every time you introduced a new theory, I kept thinking and hoping that they couldnt get any worse. Boy was I wrong!
There is no reason the big e would hold back against Horus. Now Sanguinius on the other hand absolutely. The emperor could’ve obliterated Horus at any point why would he wait until Horus almost killed him to do it. A Horus he knew was way, way, way, way past any sort of saving. Nvm the fact that if he did “save” Horus wtf is everyone else gonna think. Now Sanguinius on the other hand I could see him trying to get Sanguinius out of the black rage and in doing so being severely wounded. Plus we know sanguinius is the most primarch him with the black rage would make him even more powerful.
What if the bugs are running from a huge amount of mind flayers lol?
Love this video even if I don’t agree with all of this. I feel like this is one of your more cerebral and critical (and personal) video and I’m all for it! Keep them coming!
The first one is a pretty good theory in my opinion because it actually contextualizes all the smoke and mirrors around the emperor and would explain why he delayed in killing Horace like he didn't want to kill him he knew exactly what chaos was any new horse was possessed by it because he had advance knowledge that the heresy would happen
I like the Sanguinious theory due to it making the story just so much more tragic. The Heresy is ultimately a tragedy and it makes the story that much more damning if it ended with the perfect hero succumbing to a force he couldn’t control to defeat the villain, only to be destroyed by it in the end. And personally I don’t think it takes away from anything but rather acts as a contrast to the greatness of the characters.
isn't the reason blood angels see horus during their rage is that... it was horus himself killed sanguinius?
Very informative, especially for a small fry in the lore like me. Making a clearer picture, from an often mudied water.