If you're looking for more Tesla content, check out my newest video on the six ways the Cybertruck would change my life: ua-cam.com/video/48Brp9kFYTE/v-deo.html
FACTS are Tesla 4680 Nk & Si cells can store 5x the Energy & 6x the Power of a 2170 LION. the Silicon can Sequester more LI ions than and other current materiel , as it has more Perfectly formed Bins for which to store Li as it gets used. when you Discharge a 4680 cell , the Reverse happens and the Li ions get trapped in the Bins of the Nickel . furthermore , the tabless design lends itself to Superior Charge & Discharge cycles and you are able to More Completely charge a 4680 cell and More Completely discharge it without loosing battery life. the 4680 cell can also be better thermally managed as it can be Plate cooled , as opposed to side Cooled in a 2170. the Negatives of 4680 is the Possible formation of Li plating of the Annode, which can lead of Degradation. but, careful planning on Charging & Discharge cycles will help mitigate this.
there are Diffrent kinds of Charging cycles, slow 120v AC, 240v Home charging and DC FAST Charging. there is little or NO Degreation happening when you charge from HOME on a 120/240v AC even if you Charge/Discharge close to the MIN/MAX , this is because batteries offer Resistance in Charging , Resistance creates heat, which Degrades the batteries . so, even IF you own a BEV , you can SAFELY charge to 100% daily in the overnight hours. (usually 7 - 8 H ) on a Full Charge. and this Down time also gives time for the car to Normalize the battery after charging. with the TESLA app you can Chose your PRE Heat time , so when you are Ready to leave , the Battery can be warmed up for Superior Performance. this way you Always leave with an Optimal charge status. the Problem , arises with Frequent DC FAST charging and its recomended to charge no less than 20% state of charge and 80% state of charge , as the battery REALLY heats up , this is WHY most ALL Legacy car makers DONT use 250/350 kwh DC FAST charging , because the CHEAP batteries they use will Degrade FASTER. IF they used SUPERIOR cell technology , like a 2170 or 4680 , they would be able to handle frequent charging at 350 kwh. TESLA is overall the Fastest at 80% in just 10 minutes (1000 mph) , but it takes 20 more minutes to go from 80% to max of 90%. charging is slowed to Prevent overheating & Degeration. Other DC FAST charging is alot Slower than Tesla overall .
Nissan Leaf/ Renault Zoe is the most unreliable EV, it has no active liquid cooling like Tesla, GM, BMW, or some early e-Golf. Hyundai/KIA EV are also good and cooled well. Prius 1st Gen is even better than any Nissan EV. Most Tesla after 10 years are still above 90% capacity compared to when it is new, and even better in Toyota hybrid, more than 95% after millions of cycles/10 years. All-new Toyota have 15 years unlimited miles battery warranty in UK/Ireland. Well, UK has very mild weather, almost never reach above 35C in summer.
@@YourOfficialDailyAmerican007 Not comparable to typical Toyota battery with at least 10 years lifespan unlimited miles. Newer revised version average life is even higher, 15 years. GreenBean uses D battery, exactly like notorious older Honda Hybrid that failed all the time in less than 8 years
This single 25 minute video has given me more background info about EV’s and batteries than watching two years of EV movies on youtube combined. Subscribed instantly!!
@@YuriG03042 “two years of EV movies”. How many Fast & Furious movies are there which don’t teach a whole lot, in fact teach dang well nothing at all, about car tires, except for showing them make smoke? Expect to see a lot more about tires in a 25min video, about tires- Cpt. Obvious!
Anecdotally, I can confirm your assessment of the Leaf battery. My 2016 Leaf (sold it in favour of a Tesla) suffered horrible battery degradation (< 50% capacity after just a few years. No. Nissan did not allow the battery to be replaced under warranty.). The car became nearly useless except for very short city driving and required overnight charging most of the time. I guess that's what happens when a manufacturer completely ignores battery management issues.
A friend of mine in Seattle is driving an older one to work still. In a moderate climate that doesn’t get too hot, the battery lasts longer but since it has no cooling, a hot climate will kill it in short order. This is like having an air cooled engine. It’s just poor engineering.
@@LiamE69 There is a reason they don’t make air cooled 911 engines. Last one was the late 90s. They can’t keep up the the performance of water cooled but that’s how technology develops. Start simple, and add complexity to increase performance.
I have owned a MODEL X since 2016. We charge to 70% every night. We have 77,000 miles 123k km in 5 years of ownership. We live in Minnesota and have lost 7 miles of range and our MODEL X and is faster today then it was when we bought it and it’s an overall better car today than it was when we bought it.
Am not a engineer I work at Deka a Battery manufacturers and even I know this. I don't think EV is as efficient as they paint them yeah for the city they are great and home owners but for the rest I don't think so.
@@dtibor5903 They are Toxic as hell to produce and worse yet we haven't even come up with the way to recycle them at a mayor scale in the US. They are way worse for the environment than a ICE!
As a retired science teacher I have to agree with many of those giving you an A+ on feedback. Clearly and concisely presented.. you just gained another subscriber!
Something i thought was very interesting is that my new laptop has an option to prevent the battery charge from going over 80% and when you use this option it also pegs the cpu to its lowest clock speed and the gpu capacity to 0 while the battery is below 30% to prevent you from dropping it much below that. Pretty smart.
So you're losing ~50% of your potential battery life to make the cell potentially last a few more months? Why bother paying all that money to use a high-end lithium battery if all you want is the performance of a NiCd?
@@actually5004 Because my laptop spends 90% of its life on a desk plugged in anyway so losing 50% of my battery capacity for any life gain is worth the cost.
@@Jackpkmn You know you can get a laptop that you can take the battery out of when not portable, right? In your case it would be much better to charge it to 50% then remove it alltogether.
23:10 You changed the time scale from 8 years to 3. If you go back to 19:50 and compare it to the Nissan Leaf chart at 3 years, it's almost exactly at the same level of battery capacity.
Tesla batteries are that good. The reason the leafs batteries do so poorly is because they have no thermal management. Tesla has the best thermal management and the best longevity.
Good catch! Though I would clarify that if you compare it to Eric Way's numbers, then yes it does seem like it will drop like the Leaf, but he drove 100K miles in 3 years. Based on the data points provided by the other sources, it does trend kinda closer to Tesla...although it's kinda hard to make that call because it's still only been three years and trying to trend out to 10 years based on 3 years data really does amplify any variances which may or may not be incidental. In any event, that was a REALLY good catch.
With a barrage of useless info available on UA-cam from battery “experts“, this is by far the most concise, clear and informative video on the subject for newbies. Well done!
Really!? Did you actually look at the graphs presented? Please use the graph at 21:20 to tell me when the battery is expected to reach 20% capacity. According to the graph, never! The rate of degradation slows down the older the battery becomes!? This makes no sense. Not a single car in the entire database has a capacity of less than 75% regardless of mileage and use? Not a single battery died? The chart is so flawed that its paradoxical.
Very good and accurate presentation. Anecdote: when Nissan presented the 1st Gen Leaf 2010, I told them it was a huge mistake to not include active thermal battery management. I had been driving an electric scooter for some years and knew about thermal issues first hand. They told me I surely wouldn't know more about batteries than their engineers, and I should just trust them. I didn't.
Something you didn't mention here is that batteries packs are not just one giant indivisible unit. A battery pack is made of individual cells which can degrade unevenly over time. Some battery packs are also divided into batteries (ie. groups of cells) that the charge controller can isolate if the battery doesn't match the rest of the pack well enough for it to operate safely. This can be cause by a dead cell in one of the batteries. All this means that if your battery loses a lot of capacity, it is often possible to find and replace bad cells in the battery pack, which can vastly increase your car's range, as it brings some of the battery back to life. Indeed there are already services out there that can do this for you, and it's a lot cheaper than just replacing the entire pack.
@Larry Butler ice cars can catch fire too and more often then evs but many evs(excepting tesla) sucks and can catch fire even tesla evs catch fire sometimes but they not as often as other evs.
Theoretically. But with right to repair being in such a sad state most of these companies will either force you to replace the whole pack or do it through them at an astronomical price. I think people will be in for a rude awakening when they lose the ease of repairability they've taken for granted with gas.
Off course you are right with that, but most people depend on the usual repair shop, and usual mechanics dont even understand the 4-stroke process, nor are they realy familiar with obd, all they can do is change parts, and if that doesnt fix the problem, they change the next part and so on.
I have an 8 year old Nissan 100 thousand miles on the clock and 11 bars of capacity (81 %), driving in UK climate. Battery never goes under 20% charge and majority of time charged to 80%. Still going strong, and can get 70 miles on full charge. Bought for £7000 4 years ago. Very happy so cheap to run it has almost paid for itself. For a second hand car from £4-8000 they are well worth the money IMO.
And as a counterexample, I have a 2012 Leaf and the battery is at 50% capacity. In the winter, I can't drive with the heater and have to stop to charge on the way home. My commute is only 20 miles each way.
@@NateDecker1982 That sounds bad, do you drive in a temperate climate? Also do you drive in eco? When i first got the car it had 12 bars (87 %) and I used to drive only in normal mode, then after 6 months I lost a bar and decided to drive in eco. I have lost only 4 % capacity in 3 and half years since I did that, so that in addition to never letting the battery go below 20% and living in a temperate climate has most likely made the battery hold up so well. Also not sure if it makes much difference but my car is white, so in theory it could contribute to keeping the battery temperature down on hot summer days (since the leaf has no thermal management for the battery).
Sorry nate decker, big improvements in 13/14 plate leaf, better battery chemistry and heat pump heating. My 14 plate still does about 75 - 80 miles on a good day with air con on. The cost of being ane early adopter of new tech.
There is a UA-cam review of a Tesla that drove over 1 million miles; it was in near constant use and used supercharging. It required 4 battery packs in order to achieve 1 million miles. They got Telsa to replace 2 for free; but otherwise the cost would have been high; $80,000 USD just for the packs. So you can consider 250,000 to be a good rule of thumb for longevity of a pack, with a high or low temp envirnoment potentially cutting this further.
In Norway, where a huge portion of these cars were sold, my Gen1 Leaf has lost two out of twelve bars after 8 years of daily use and charging every time I stop, so even if the range falls further during the winter, the over all cooler climate also reduses the Degradation. But yes, the drop in range does limit the freedom for those who don't have a 2nd car.
@@eurobrowarriormonk7182 Yeah, that came out wrong. Reduces, to a degree. Current cars with 300km plus even in cool weather is good enough for most ppl. And the charging network in Norway is rather good, and getting better every month. We also got our first battery swap station last week, where one can "recharge" in 3 minutes. So what I should have written is the rang drop is potentially limiting the freedom of some ppl with special needs. 65% of all cars sold in Norway in 2021 was electric, many were hybrid, and some were ICE. There are now 450 - 500 000 EV's in Norway, out of 2.8 million cars in total.
@@KjetilBalstad What do people do when something that they have not actively managed their miles left fo comes up? what if you are arriving home and just before plugging up you get the call that a close relative is in the hospital dying and they are way out of range? There seems to be a lot of things people really buying into this electric crap have not really thought about much
@@eurobrowarriormonk7182 In reality you're just creating non-existing problems. Do you think 65% of all new cars sold would have been electric if they were so bad? If you just came hom from long trip, and just managed to reach your home, and just as you parked got such a call, sure, it would be difficult to drive right away. In such a case I would call for a Taxi, or ask my family, friends or neighbor or whatever to swap or borrow a car from them. In reality, these things do not happen to such a degree that this could be considered a problem.
One of the best UA-cam Videos ever - PERIOD. I watch a lot of UA-cam video's and rarely subscribe. I instantly subscribed to your channel. This is the benchmark for UA-cam videos IMO. Well done Josh!
thanks for providing all this info! we bought a used Nissan Leaf a few years ago and are very happy with it despite its battery capacity. We're hoping to purchase a larger family car soon, preferably an EV...
I have a 2015 Nissan Leaf at 72,000km at 78% SOH :) Not bad at all because I saved 72,000km cost of petrol :) I have been charging for free at our Local malls and never charge it at home :) because my house is near at out local malls ;) I can't complain about that! :)
Nice overview! One more thing to add is that for long term storage of your EV (say, a few days or weeks), it is also good to keep your battery SoC (state of charge) low at about 35-50% and before use, again to charge it up to 75% and cycle it at low DoD's. It will last much longer. And definitley look out for EV's with some form of active cooling. But whether an EV is good for you is based on your commuting lifestyle.
This video is extremely good, as already pointed out by numerous viewers. Congratulations on a superbly pedagogical and informative lecture! I learned a lot from it, even though I had previously spent hours and hours studying Li battery degradation.
There are two things why this, generally spoken, great video leaves a bit of a taste. Teslas are known for having some overprovisioning, which they can release when needed to "hide" the capacity loss of the whole pack". Example: If you have a pack of 100kWh, but you officially provide only 80kWh, you have 20kWh spare. If your whole pack lost 20% after a couple years, it's having then only 80kWh capacity left - coincidentally the same as you promised to the customer, so you can sell it as "There's no loss of battery capacity in a couple years". Many people use this as a sign for how good Teslas batteries would be, although everybody puts their pants on the same way. The issue is, as long as those numbers are not know, you can't really talk about a loss of capacity and certainly not compare them between different vehicles and definitely not use them to extrapolate any performance into the future. Cause the batter that "performed well" until today might drop drastically in performance tomorrow, when the spare capacity is all used up. And the statement "I'd buy a Tesla with 100 000 miles, if the price is right" is a bit of a null argument. If the price is right, I'd buy a Tesla with 1 000 000 miles. Maybe I even pay the value of a can of beer for it, but if I get that price, I'd buy it. What could I potentially lose with such a deal, if only the price is right (read: next to nothing)? I'd even buy one with 100 000 000 miles, if the price is right. At some point, the price might turn negative (so I'd get money for taking a pile of trash), but if the price is right, I'd even do that. The interesting thing to know would be, what is the realistic value of a Tesla model S with 100 000 miles on the clock, considering the initial purchase price and the (with some likelihood) upcoming repairs on the next 100 000miles?
An often overlooked but very important failure mode of lithium ion batteries is delamination. For a battery to work properly the layers must be in very good contact with each other. This makes a big difference between cylindrical cells and pouch or prismatic cells. With prismatic or pouch cells there is no practical way to maintain pressure on the layers to keep them in contact. You could in theory use very thick steel plates to keep the layers compressed but they would have to weigh even more than the actual battery to be effective. Cylindrical cells on the other hand can very easily maintain that pressure simply because of geometry. Very often when prismatic and even more so pouch cells fail it is by neither of the mechanisms described in the video but simply by the layers losing contact with each other. In cellphone batteries this is easily seen by the puffing up of the cell, caused by gas building up between the layers and forcing them apart. In a cylindrical cell this does not happen as the cell is not allowed to expand radially due to the metal cylindrical case. Instead of pushing the layers apart the gas slowly works its way to the outer edges of the cell and out through the relief vent. This all makes me wonder how little EV manufacturers care about the life time of their batteries beyond warranty, Tesla being the only exception I know of that do seem to care. Pouch and prismatic cells have some significant advantages in terms of weight and even more so cost but only at the expense of being much less durable.
Great Video , and Josh you did a Great Job . The translation to me is ,, Batteries are a TOTAL JOKE RIGHT NOW ! . Add the price of a new battery into your GAS milage and You loose if you buy an EV. When the Price to charge it GOES THRU THE ROOF , from the greed of the OIL BURNING Stations charging more BECAUSE THEY CAN ON A WHIM ,, Now you have a super LOOSER. And Don't for get the TOXIC UN GREEN BATTERY !! AND ITS REPLACEMENT$ !!! Not yet would I ever want an EXPENSIVE LOOSER EV ...
I have a 2012 Model S and was concerned about Battery degregation and the $20,000 cost for a new Battery. Now after this video I feel more confident and secure that my Tesla will last a lot longer than expected. Thanks for the info!
Great video, thank you very much. As the new owner of a used Tesla Model 3 with 50k miles on it, I appreciate the education that will no doubt assist me in getting the best longevity out of my battery pack. I'm also REALLY glad that I resisted the initial temptation of buying a used Nissan Leaf so I wouldn't have to spend as much on a used EV. The range limitation of the Leaf pretty much killed that option, frankly.
You really have provided tons of most important data specifically on battery technology that will be very important for all the EV users and would be users. Thanks
Smart Easy DIY, But he completely failed to define exactly what he means when he says “charge/discharge cycle”. If a vehicle has a range of 100 miles and you’re cycling between 100% and 25% does mean you’re driving 75 miles per cycle? And what about cycling between 75% and 65%? Does that mean you get to drive only 10 miles per cycle? Because if that’s what he means by, “cycle” then cycling between 75% and 65% doesn’t look very good any more. In fact, it then looks worse than cycling between 100% and 25%.
@@terjeoseberg990 A charge/discharge cycle is any time you use the battery, then charge it, whether a little or a lot. Part of the problem with the older ~80 mile Leafs is that many people HAVE to charge it often BECAUSE the range is so short. Hence, more charge and discharge cycles, which wears out the battery more.
It would be nice to see those charts adjusted for total miles driven before degradation instead of charging cycles. Personally that is a more useful metric for me.
There is no way to determine what you want. For example, if you live in a cold climate much of your battery capacity will be dedicated to keeping the vehicle warm. Load weight, type of driving and terrain will also have substantial impact on mileage. Also, testing is done related to charging cycles because mileage can be so variable depending on the above factors. Finally, to add icing on this cake, as the battery degrades, more charging cycles will be required to achieve the 'original' capacity, in effect accelerating the degradation!
I talked to a Tesla engineer a few month ago and he told me that they were amazed by the current degradation of their batteries. Apparently it is significantly less than expected. He told me that Tesla is planning to put in place a battery shop for out-of-warranty cars in 2021 and that Tesla will buy back the old battery to reuse them (EDIT : After a recycling process of course !!!) in Powerwalls thus reducing the price of the new battery significantly.
That would be an awesome program if they do that. The Model S’s are starting to come off warranty, so having a method to offset the battery price would incentivize people to hold onto older cars.
He is only talking about averages, they sold me a brand new model 3 with -13% missing capacity and tell me “all good no errors, battery capacity is secret and health also, bye sir” Model 3 SR+ with 208/240 miles.... They just first ghost me and talk about driving slower, charge habits... (tried All)
There is a good market in Nissan Leaf batteries for homebrew power packs so Tesla really should be in this market. Home batteries have far less demand than cars to they don’t need to be in tip top performance.
The Best battery explanation video I had ever seen. Great job 👍👌. Simplified, understandable. Everything included in a single video. Combination of experience and animation help understand things better. THANK YOU
As an automotive technician, I would like to say that the demand for more economic battery repairs/replacement will drive innovation. Some of us gear heads will figure out how to keep you on the road more economically.
Bingo, huge opportunity for new EV shops to open up with Electronic Techs dropping batter packs diagnosing and refurbishing just the bad cells etc. Check out Gruber Motors on UA-cam
I own a 1st gen 2013 Nissan Leaf, I am it's second owner, purchased it with very low mileage a few years ago, the tested battery degradation is just below 10% which is fantastic for a car purchased new in the latter half of 2012. I have charged it to 100% a few times to be able to make some ~80 mile round trips, I paid a few thousand $$$'s for it & in the last year have only needed to replace the very well worn original tires which has made it an excellent purchase.
@Trius I use the Leaf for work use & travel to work sites within ~20 miles or less from my home, the leaf is plugged in virtually at all times due to it's typically abysmal charge rate, I get reimbursed per mile I drive at the same rate whether I'm driving an EV or Gas/Diesel powered vehicle, at this point the leaf has paid for itself & more.
@@perseverance8 Your situation is called an 'outlier' in regard to a statistical sample's single point of data (aka: your situation is the exception, rather than the norm/rule). CERTAIN electric vehicles (BTW, a MUCH better label/description of these type of vehicles is a 'battery-operated vehicle') definitely have their place in our society. These vehicles include mopeds, golf carts, forklifts, segways, & children's toys. Unless battery technology takes a HUGE leap forward from what we have now, there is ABSOLUTELY no way, IMHO, that transportation (especially in regard to cargo transportation/trucking/shipping) will NEVER become a fossil fuel-free system. Just because California's idiot Governor states that by 2035? (I think he set a 2035 deadline, not 100% sure), all new vehicles manufactured after 2034 in the state of California must not be a fossil fuel-consuming type of vehicle. I'm definitely missing some pieces of information in re: to this idiotic mandate CA has set for itself & it's poor citizens. I'm not at all fond of the way B.O.C.s cannot be 're-fueled/re-charged' to 100% (aka: a full tank) in NO WHERE near the amount of time it takes to fill a fossil-fueled car. AND, for those of us that sometimes 'get a wild hair' & just get up on a Saturday morning & just start driving to 'wherever the road leads'... well, that's not gonna happen in an E.V. (B.O.P.). Why not? Well, unless you know where every charging station is located within a 200 mile radius, good luck going on a 'random adventure' without the constant worry of being stranded w/out any battery power left in the car. And NOPE, someone can't just bring you a few gallons of battery-power in a can. : ( *BOTTOM LINE: BATTERY-OPERATED CARS SHOULD CONTINUE TO BE, IMHO, AN ★OPTION★ FOR THOSE (FEW) OF US THAT HAVE A DRIVING SITUATION THAT FITS THE WAY A B.O.C. IS 'FUELED'.*
@Trius How does your laptop and phone work out for you? That's how I charge my electronics, an electric car and my electric bikes - when I don't need them. No interest in charging while I wait for them. I've done it with an EV on a fast charger but it is a time waster. A little planning goes a long way.
@Trius We have multiple cars. When we need to do a long trip, we take the "big" car. The EV would be fine 95% of the time for my family. The big car would be the choice for towing, long distances, and carrying four adults.
Excellent explanation. Thanks! I’d love to hear what the differences are (if any) in how a lithium iron phosphate battery should be treated in an ev. I did read something that said you could repeatedly run it from 0-100% charge without degradation, but I don’t know it that is true.
This is a very informative video and does make me have a second look in this aspect of EVs. Just my minor qualm is the use of bar graphs that starts from 50% (or 70%) to 100% instead of the full 0 to 100% range in 21:2015:0322:45. This has the effect of making the values "look" worse than they really are and actually a subtle "tactic" esp by government officials in presenting things that they like to exaggerate in the visuals. Sure the graphs are still accurate and discerning viewers should take note of that, but this partially defeats the core purpose of using graphs which is to quickly AND accurately visualize proportions in a glance.
Excellent video and explanation. I wish you elaborated a little more on the impact of cold weather on an older battery. I heard a lot of horror stories where people got stranded on the highway, when temperatures dropped suddenly late at night while they were driving home from a long day trip. It's not like you can have AAA come and loan you a battery pack till you get to the next charging station. The industry needs to move towards some standardized "power nodes" to facilitate a short trip, 20-30 miles, to get you to a charging station without getting the whole vehicle towed.
"The industry needs to move towards some standardized "power nodes" to facilitate a short trip" By "the industry"...are you referring to the taxpayers? If you are, this conversation is over.
@@jimmartin181 What? It's pretty easy to initiate a public campaign to push EV companies to make this a feature. Not everything is done by the government (these days, hardly anything is)
@@jerbid_ Who do you think is going to do it? Private industry? If they take on the project it will only happen via government subsidies. The cost to wire the country for EVs would never be saddled by those who want to buy EVs. Therein lies the role of the taxpayers. You are aware that more than 40% of the cost of a Tesla is subsidized by the government already...right? I vote NO.
I had an issue with my electric bike where the battery had degraded over six years into being useless, The lady in the bike shop sent it to her “battery guy” and when I got the battery back it was fine and running normally. No cells were replaced. What he did was balance them, he recharged the five modules as if one module degraded, the whole battery would degrade. So I call this guy a battery whisperer. This might be an up and comming profession where aging cells are recharged individually to work normally with the rest. I’ve had this battery for three months and it could fail again in four months or three years, I don’t know. I can imagine a cottage industry of battery whisperers who can delay the inevitable cost of battery replacement.
All high quality li-ion packs have integrated balancers, and I can guarantee any modern electric car will have one-so it shouldn't be an issue for full sized EVs. Still, for less expensive (and possibly lower quality) e-bikes and scooters, balancing the battery definitely will help it last longer!
All cats have a BMS system that auto balances during charging. Youbwould kind of expect them too, since cars are kind of expensive. Cars also typically have warranties, Kia for instance has a 10 year battery warranty, average is 7 yeafs/100k miles.
Besides balancing, sometimes the pack gets discharged too low, and the BMS disables the pack. By manually bringing the lowest cell above the BMS's threshold, the pack will work again. Most of the time.
Bms of ebike are often crap with very bad balance cell. But we have the chance that in ebike we can remove and change only bad cell, not the entire battery. :D
@@Unnaymed Some ebike battery makers makes it hard to even balance them manually, because of water resistance. Water resistance... A necessary evil that makes everything harder to repair.
Lets correct one thing. I have a 2012 Leaf bought it 2013 at the dealership brand new. Lost 5 bars; contacted Nissan Canada through dealership and they said warranty is 5 years only; not 8 years; as you were showing your graph at 10:12.
You know, there is one aspect, that has various impact on car´s interior temperature - the color. So if the car is white, the battery suffers less in hot weather, than when the car has another color (with black cars being affected the most due to black color attribute). Bear in mind, that the color of interior matters as well - having white car with black interior only means all outside metal parts won´t be affected, but due to interior dark color, there will be literally hell inside.
@@Byefriendo you can also use window tint foils, it doesn´t matter if the tint is fully black or semi-transparent - they all work the same, there is a variant usable on front doors, that is fully transparent and only deflects heat; it has a con tho - you won´t be able to break the windows, if needed.
if i owned a tesla for the amount of time i had my first car, i would've replaced the batteries 3-4 times. if i wanted to sell it after, the price would not be based on how well i kept the car but only on how old the batteries are. at this point, i'd be in the hole for more than double what the car is worth
Pesky little facts none of the manufacturers want to admit, not do the green fanatics pushing evs as they are all only concerned about ending fossil fuels regardless of the impact on people or our industrial economy. Every data point I see makes me think the whole ev thing is another scam.
Why would you say that when the data in this video showed how well liquid cooled batteries hold their range over time? Would you be buying new batteries after losing 20% of the total range after 8 years? And did you have your first car for 32 years?
This is the question I wished the Swedish government asked! As they are pushing hard for EV, basically punishing those who simply can't afford them. Gas prices are bonkers with the amount of tax. The power grid is also not made for EV consumption. I'm all for EVs, but all the pros and cons must be considered. To punish a people with the no ability to change that quickly only leads to resistance...
I just recently Purchased a 2015 Model S 70D with over 400k miles. Yes, thats over 80k/yr, or almost 7k/mo. The original battery was actually replaced at about 250k, so the current pack has around 150k which seems to have somewhere between 15-20% degredation. Its pretty impressive how well it's held up given the amount of abuse that it has seen (at least 5-600 supercharging cycles, and probably a whole lot of 100% charge and deep discarge cycles).
I bought a used 2015 Leaf with 38K miles & showed 12 bars/battery. Just over 1 month owning it lost a bar to 11 . . . but still showed 82 mile range available. NOW at more than 3 years owning it lost another bar to 10 . It appears to still have a range of 78 miles . . . I am devastated ! ! ! (Joking) Seldom drive up to 30 miles at a time , keep it in the garage, & only slow charge up to about 70%. Am 69 years old . . . . . am pretty sure it & it's battery will outlast me ! I love it, drive it often . . . just not far! AND . . . if you like Jazz . . . you may want to check out Angelina Jordan on UA-cam . Take care , RH
@Allen Loser with Versas having issues with its transmission, that's debatable. Also, the leaf owner already said he doesn't need a battery replacement. I still see first generation LEAFs running, and probably Richard still have many years before having to exchange it.
@Allen Loser So he should ditch the comfort of driving auto to get a manual, so he doesn't have an issue with a Versa? Is this really a solution? Do you know what's funny? Is that even though there're 1st gen LEAFs running, a 2015 LEAF is far away from being 1st gen. I owned a 96 Golf. Ten years later, I got stranded in the middle of buttfuck nowhere because the engine died. Good luck with yours.
@Allen Loser I own a 96 Toyota Camry, and I love that car, I also work with batteries for electric bikes and I know a lot of the things you're saying about batteries aren't true or greatly exaggerated for the worst. Also, you seem to ignore the OPs needs just because you seem to have a hard-on for ICE cars.
This is a very nice video with clear explanations. One small comment is that LEAF do have active thermal management which heats up the battery if too cold and prevent excessive usage when too hot, what they do miss is liquid cooling, which becomes a relevant issue when living in hot areas
I am driving a 2017 leaf. I drive the car not like a maniac n my battery is still almost 100percent. It all depends on ur driving style n ur daily needs.
@@gowdsake7103 Batteries do age, but how you drive, the climate you live in, and how you charge it are hugely significant as well. You're incorrect if you believe that age is the only factor. NASA has decades old space probes with batteries that are still going strong, because they treat them right.
The people involved in the "Radio Controlled" hobbies have understood the practical side of these concepts for a long long time now....30+ years myself. I've always viewed fully electric cars as full size RC cars...we understand the high performance characteristics too because we have been essentially scale modeling these ideas and forever... Of course train locomotives - the original hybrid vehicles, pioneered all of it 80 years ago....
This is really incredible!! Your animations are getting so complex but still look beautiful! Love the info being presented in a way that’s so easy to digest
One subtlety about depth of discharge is that if you're only discharging 10% before recharging, then you're not getting much mileage per cycle. e.g. if the full range is 300 miles, then a 10% charge cycle is only 30 miles driven. So 8000 cycles is comparable to about 1066 100%-25% cycles. The 85%-25% discharge seems to be very close to the performance of the 75%-65% (8000 cycles / 6 is 1333 cycles) if you take that into account. There might be an even better point that maximizes total miles compared to capacity loss. I remember reading a paper that said that 90%-40% maximized the total usage compared to capacity loss.
I lose about 10 miles on a 40 mile range mercedes hybrid on a cold day. It hasn't recovered yet since purchasing it in march 2021. That's a significant reduction and almost a deal breaker. Or maybe would have been had I known how bad it would get. Other than that the car is one of the best I've driven day to day.
I currently drive a 2012 leaf with 30k miles. I bought it for 3k 6 months ago. My driving range on the freeway from a full charge is roughly 25-30 miles in the spring. or 65 miles on surface streets. Yesterday, in 20 degree weather, my surface range was closer to 30 miles... lol.
I'm not so sure: 23:08 -- from the data presented, the rate of degradation for the Bolt seems much worse than the Model 3: 100% to 90% in 3 or 4 years, vs 6 - 8 years.
Amazing presentation skills and really great usage of animations. The production quality of this video can only be matched the richness of the content. Subscribed instantly!
I'm driving a used 2017 Volt. I've noticed that in the winter, a full charge might take me only 38 miles, but in the summer I get around 53 miles of range, which is basically the same as it was when the car was new.
You should do an update to this video. Tesla S batteries are dropping like flies these days. Typical error is 'Maximum battery charge reduced' and a BMS_u029 error. This requires the battery pack to be replaced at a typical cost of $20,000!!
Very nice video. The explanation of how the battery works was very well done. I might have also mentioned the base units of voltage (J/C) since you were discussing energy but this is a minor issue. It would also be interesting to hear your thoughts about energy density and the resulting weight of battery packs in the current fleet of electric vehicles. My understanding is that the Bolt for example has a battery pack that claims 50% of the vehicle weight. And it is not uncommon to see battery packs that weigh 1,000 lb. I struggle to see how this makes sense in a passenger car and even less so in a pickup truck.
Jesus. I’m 21 seconds into this video and already love it. I’ll update when I finish :) Wow. Definitely will have to watch a second time but that was amazing.
Nikola Garage dude. The little animated electric particle dudes with their funny noises etc were awesome. The way you used a water wheel to explain the motor. Brilliant. Epic data, made entertaining and educational. Every new frame I was wondering how much time it took but the end result was just incredible. You set the bar.
Glad you appreciated the silly noises. I wasn’t sure on that, but my wife thought it was cool. Yea, I spent way too much time on this (maybe close to 80 hours?), but thank you! I’m glad you liked it.
3 роки тому
I am not even kidding when I say that I understood how batteries work for the first time. Great video!
Good presentation and good use of published data. One consideration, on the plot of Depth of Discharge and Battery Life Capacity (16th minute), it shows that a 75% charge to 65% discharge (10% recharge) retains the most original battery capacity. However, how far can you go with a 10% recharge. If compared to a 85% charge to 25% discharge (60% recharge), you could go 6 times farther. So, a 60% recharge loses about 17% of battery capacity after 5000 cycles. A 10% recharge would need 30,000 cycles to go the same distance. To compare apples to apples, how much capacity loss loss for a 10% recharge at 30k cycles? My guess is that it would be similar to the capacity loss of the 60% recharge. It's interesting that a 75% recharge (100 to 25%) losses more capacity with similar mileage. Maybe the take-a-way is that the batteries should not be recharged fully.
That's the key question, and it's on the screen at 16min in. Say 75% of capacity is your end of life. That's 5k cycles at the red 3/4 DoD or (extrapolating), 10k cycles at much lower 60%DoD. Multiply DoD x cycles to get the total energy we were able to add to --- and extract from -- the battery. In this test: far longer life (total vehicle mileage) is available if you do only shallow cycles. I've heard anecdotally you shouldn't charge to full capacity during first part of life, and that implication is here too but it's much harder to be sure about it; can you confidently extrapolate that white curve out to 15k cycles? I've seen these fall off a cliff off to the right edge of the curve. I think the summary is: don't discharge it all the way. I was surprised at the other main takeaway: supercharging isn't bad. I'm still suspicious of that one.
Well presented, knowledgeable, impartial presentation. Call me a dinosaur, but I'm steering well clear of electric cars until they can compete with diesel range. I've just over half filled the tank in an old Volvo S40 and the range is 540 miles. No such thing as range anxiety, takes 5 mins to fill. You do the math.
In regards to 'quick charging' of batteries. When you try to hammer them with more current to speed it up is that you heat them alot more (there's an internal impedance in all batteries and the higher the charging current, the more heat inside each battery). Heat or energy is I^2 x R (current squared time resistance inside battery). So if you double the charging current to try to halve the time, you increase the heating 4 X . That's a major issue.
The data will determine who has the "best" thermal management. Keep in mind a superior thermal management may not change much is they have inferior cell chemistry. There is no data yet on Taycan battery degradation and won't be for some time.
17:39 - Donner Summit in Northern California. Fun fact you can actually hike through those train tunnels, as a portion of the line was bypassed and abandoned. Its about five miles. The tunnels end and you can continue along till you reach the current line. Totally recommend if you are in the Tahoe Donner area. 22:20 Donner Summit Bridge overlooking Donner Lake. Its funny seeing this bridge show up in many car commercials.
Like so many others here, I would like to say thank you for the efforts into giving us this great overview. Honest and non biased datas on this stuff is important information.
very interesting knowhow has Tesla due to provide extra wire to each battery cell and charge separately particularly - this is huge exacting for software and hardware controlling charging process but this is "something special", tesla cars are extraordinary by this way and, according to my meaning, leader in this technique, my opinion
As a former Tesla owner, this is on par. Living in the Carolinas, we have long, hot summers, and the further west you go, have relatively short, cold winters. As such, my prior 70D lost about 4% per year over 5 years. In the winter, thermal loss was high. An example would be pulling out if my heated garage at 100%, and driving 40 miles to my parents house, and driving back after dinner, and going from 217 miles of range, to pulling back in after 80 miles with ~ 60 miles of range or about 20% capacity. Most of that travel was at highway speeds and it performed worse in cold weather temperatures. I always got better distance in the fall and spring, but found myself charging more during winter. Maybe I overcharged the battery as a result which led to the loss of distance.
8000 cycles from 75-65% is the same amount of discharge as 100%-0% 800 times. Whoever thought to measure discharge cycles this way is making this misleading. Despite that, I'm still getting a Tesla.
you are misunderstanding a cycle which is common, I did it once too. 1 cycle = 100% DoD total. 8k cycles of 10% DoD is actually going 75-65% 80k times.
I've seen that capacity versus cycles graph for different depths of discharge many times, but one thing that it's missing and that would be more useful to show on the x axis would be energy delivered. The 75%-65% line shows degradation down to about 92% at 8000 cycles, but each cycle is only delivering 10% of the battery's rated capacity to a load. This is roughly equivalent to a number of miles driven for a car. The 85%-25% line shows degradation to about the same level (92%) at around 1300 cycles, but it's delivering 6 times as much energy per cycle, so the energy delivered to the load (and by extension, miles driven) in those 1300 cycles is about the same as the energy delivered in 8000 cycles doing 75%-65%. Quite frankly, I don't think owners are as interested in the number of times they've plugged the thing in. They're more interested in how many miles they've driven or how many years of driving they're getting.
One cycle usually means 100% of the battery capacity. Even if you see 75-65%, they made 10 of those to count as a single cycle. But I agree that this should've been mentioned in the video.
The confusing part is that it's a different type and rate of wear than we're used to thinking about with cars. Like with a typical internal combustion engine, the mileage is one of the most important things to note about a used car because there's usually an expected repair costs associated with certain milestones. Every car is different depending on the quality of maintenance and parts ofc, but it's generally fairly reliable. I have to say that my first thought when hearing about the Leaf's issue with cooling was "how expensive and difficult would it be to install a basic cooling system for the battery?" Cuz I could see that being a popular addon service if it was reasonably priced and something that could be installed in the available space under the hood. But knowing car companies and how they tend to design things under the hood, there's rarely any extra space.
$20k plus for a used car. FFS. I purchased a 3 year old high milage (over 100k) diesel Volvo with more bells and whistles than I will ever use for £6k/$8k. It pretty much still does the same mpg as when I purchased it and it is still worth about £6k. I would drive an EV but until such time as I can match the above I am stuck with ICE.
I guess one next step should be normal in the near future: the interchangeable battery. This means that if you buy a new car you can take the battery from the old one. This should be compatible at least inside the same brand.
If I am not mistaken, this was the initial concept considered by Tesla. Also, EV makers in China have been doing it for years. In August Chinese automaker Nio announced that it had just completed its 500,000th battery swap. If they went to battery swaps, I would probably be more inclined to buy an EV.
@@ThomasBomb45 you don't need to change the electrical engine but if you have an expensive component that can be reused and that also pollutes if is disposed I beleave that would be nice to reuse it.
There is a lot of FUD about a vehicle battery range diminishing and it becoming worthless or "totaled". It's not as if the EV just stops working once the range degrades to say 50% which could take decades of use. Think on this: If a new Leaf has 80 miles of range and a used Model S is degraded to 50% and only provides 100 miles of range, how is that worthless? Even degraded to a level that some would consider not acceptable for that model, for others its better than what they are buying brand new.... Used vehicles have a purpose as well such as new teen drivers (where some parents might like the range prohibited) or "runners" to keep miles off of your other "My Baby" special vehicle, food delivery fleets, or even as a backup vehicle.... If V2G ever gets off the ground, that diminished old EV turd in the garage could provide a few hours of home backup power when in need. Note: Even an ICE vehicle loses range per tank as it ages due to the loss of efficiency and wear of internal components.
Thanks for a very informative and useful clarification of the practical effects that can be expected. Will you be making an updated one showing how new Tesla batteries will improve on longevity?
I am using a 11amp lithium ion battery from 2015 in my electric bike, its still got about 18 to 20 miles of its original 30 miles range used in winter and summer with a significant drop of because of the cold in winter, I wrap it in a sleeping matt to help with cold in winter and never charge it until it been in the house for a couple of hours, good video.
Good overview. One suggestion. A better historical data comparison would have been from the 1st generation Chevy Volt (not Bolt). The 1st generation Volt came out about same time as the Leaf (yes beating the Tesla S). But unlike the Leaf (but like the Tesla), the Volt has cooling (and heating modes thanks to the generator, aka engine) when necessary. Why not check that Volt data for the past 10+ years? How do I know this? Because I bought one of the first ones in early 2011 and still use it daily. I would say the range is a little less then when I first bought it but not to where its a problem. So.... I bet you the older Volt (like the newer Bolt) would show similar results to your Tesla results but give you more of the historical edge. Thoughts?
If you're looking for more Tesla content, check out my newest video on the six ways the Cybertruck would change my life: ua-cam.com/video/48Brp9kFYTE/v-deo.html
FACTS are Tesla 4680 Nk & Si cells can store 5x the Energy & 6x the Power of a 2170 LION.
the Silicon can Sequester more LI ions than and other current materiel , as it has more Perfectly formed Bins for which to store Li as it gets used.
when you Discharge a 4680 cell , the Reverse happens and the Li ions get trapped in the Bins of the Nickel .
furthermore , the tabless design lends itself to Superior Charge & Discharge cycles and you are able to More Completely charge a 4680 cell and More Completely discharge it without loosing battery life.
the 4680 cell can also be better thermally managed as it can be Plate cooled , as opposed to side Cooled in a 2170.
the Negatives of 4680 is the Possible formation of Li plating of the Annode, which can lead of Degradation.
but, careful planning on Charging & Discharge cycles will help mitigate this.
there are Diffrent kinds of Charging cycles, slow 120v AC, 240v Home charging and DC FAST Charging.
there is little or NO Degreation happening when you charge from HOME on a 120/240v AC even if you Charge/Discharge close to the MIN/MAX , this is because batteries offer Resistance in Charging , Resistance creates heat, which Degrades the batteries .
so, even IF you own a BEV , you can SAFELY charge to 100% daily in the overnight hours. (usually 7 - 8 H ) on a Full Charge.
and this Down time also gives time for the car to Normalize the battery after charging.
with the TESLA app you can Chose your PRE Heat time , so when you are Ready to leave , the Battery can be warmed up for Superior Performance. this way you Always leave with an Optimal charge status.
the Problem , arises with Frequent DC FAST charging and its recomended to charge no less than 20% state of charge and 80% state of charge , as the battery REALLY heats up , this is WHY most ALL Legacy car makers DONT use 250/350 kwh DC FAST charging , because the CHEAP batteries they use will Degrade FASTER.
IF they used SUPERIOR cell technology , like a 2170 or 4680 , they would be able to handle frequent charging at 350 kwh.
TESLA is overall the Fastest at 80% in just 10 minutes (1000 mph) , but it takes 20 more minutes to go from 80% to max of 90%. charging is slowed to Prevent overheating & Degeration.
Other DC FAST charging is alot Slower than Tesla overall .
Nissan Leaf/ Renault Zoe is the most unreliable EV, it has no active liquid cooling like Tesla, GM, BMW, or some early e-Golf. Hyundai/KIA EV are also good and cooled well. Prius 1st Gen is even better than any Nissan EV. Most Tesla after 10 years are still above 90% capacity compared to when it is new, and even better in Toyota hybrid, more than 95% after millions of cycles/10 years. All-new Toyota have 15 years unlimited miles battery warranty in UK/Ireland. Well, UK has very mild weather, almost never reach above 35C in summer.
Green bean batteries are cheaper & have a warranty. No need to worry. Tesla's will be different though
@@YourOfficialDailyAmerican007 Not comparable to typical Toyota battery with at least 10 years lifespan unlimited miles. Newer revised version average life is even higher, 15 years. GreenBean uses D battery, exactly like notorious older Honda Hybrid that failed all the time in less than 8 years
This single 25 minute video has given me more background info about EV’s and batteries than watching two years of EV movies on youtube combined. Subscribed instantly!!
bruv if you watched 2 years of content and didn't learn more than a 25 min video, you really need to spend your time better
TheYuriG Thanks for the advice!
@@YuriG03042 “two years of EV movies”. How many Fast & Furious movies are there which don’t teach a whole lot, in fact teach dang well nothing at all, about car tires, except for showing them make smoke? Expect to see a lot more about tires in a 25min video, about tires- Cpt. Obvious!
Same here !!!
@@YuriG03042 don't be too hard on him, when younger or hopeful about a technology a lot of hype videos can seem real.
Anecdotally, I can confirm your assessment of the Leaf battery. My 2016 Leaf (sold it in favour of a Tesla) suffered horrible battery degradation (< 50% capacity after just a few years. No. Nissan did not allow the battery to be replaced under warranty.). The car became nearly useless except for very short city driving and required overnight charging most of the time. I guess that's what happens when a manufacturer completely ignores battery management issues.
What was Nissan's excuse for not replacing the battery under warranty?
A friend of mine in Seattle is driving an older one to work still. In a moderate climate that doesn’t get too hot, the battery lasts longer but since it has no cooling, a hot climate will kill it in short order. This is like having an air cooled engine. It’s just poor engineering.
@@mylesgray3470 Oh yeah, those poorly engineered Porsche 911s. What were they thinking?
@@LiamE69 There is a reason they don’t make air cooled 911 engines. Last one was the late 90s. They can’t keep up the the performance of water cooled but that’s how technology develops. Start simple, and add complexity to increase performance.
@@mylesgray3470 If they are so poorly engineered why do they sell for so much?
I have owned a MODEL X since 2016. We charge to 70% every night. We have 77,000 miles 123k km in 5 years of ownership. We live in Minnesota and have lost 7 miles of range and our MODEL X and is faster today then it was when we bought it and it’s an overall better car today than it was when we bought it.
I work in power generation company ev-grid division and I have to say that Tesla is probably the best bet when it comes to ev purchase
As a battery engineer, this is a very good explaining you have done here. The sound the Li made while intercalating was fun to hear.
Am not a engineer I work at Deka a Battery manufacturers and even I know this.
I don't think EV is as efficient as they paint them yeah for the city they are great and home owners but for the rest I don't think so.
Do you have any insights into Sila Nanotechnologies efforts to imrove batteries, since you are a battery engineer? Thanks. AF
Car manufacturers use different battery chemistries. Also these lithium batteries are quite different from the ones used in smartphones.
@@dtibor5903
They are Toxic as hell to produce and worse yet we haven't even come up with the way to recycle them at a mayor scale in the US.
They are way worse for the environment than a ICE!
May i ask to both of u, 1mn miles batt cud that be potentially explosive/highly unstable?
As a retired science teacher I have to agree with many of those giving you an A+ on feedback. Clearly and concisely presented.. you just gained another subscriber!
Something i thought was very interesting is that my new laptop has an option to prevent the battery charge from going over 80% and when you use this option it also pegs the cpu to its lowest clock speed and the gpu capacity to 0 while the battery is below 30% to prevent you from dropping it much below that. Pretty smart.
They have 80% charging and 20% discharging apps for some Electric Vehicles and Cell Phones, too
^^^gatta look for this
So you're losing ~50% of your potential battery life to make the cell potentially last a few more months?
Why bother paying all that money to use a high-end lithium battery if all you want is the performance of a NiCd?
@@actually5004 Because my laptop spends 90% of its life on a desk plugged in anyway so losing 50% of my battery capacity for any life gain is worth the cost.
@@Jackpkmn You know you can get a laptop that you can take the battery out of when not portable, right? In your case it would be much better to charge it to 50% then remove it alltogether.
23:10 You changed the time scale from 8 years to 3. If you go back to 19:50 and compare it to the Nissan Leaf chart at 3 years, it's almost exactly at the same level of battery capacity.
Yeah, both are about 92% at about 3 years. Honestly though, there's just not enough data to make a real call on this one.
@@ColonelSandersLite ua-cam.com/video/pOQQTwYkg08/v-deo.html&feature=emb_logo
That's because Nissan did not sponsor this video. 😂🤣
Tesla batteries are that good. The reason the leafs batteries do so poorly is because they have no thermal management. Tesla has the best thermal management and the best longevity.
Good catch! Though I would clarify that if you compare it to Eric Way's numbers, then yes it does seem like it will drop like the Leaf, but he drove 100K miles in 3 years. Based on the data points provided by the other sources, it does trend kinda closer to Tesla...although it's kinda hard to make that call because it's still only been three years and trying to trend out to 10 years based on 3 years data really does amplify any variances which may or may not be incidental. In any event, that was a REALLY good catch.
6:06 Sound effect masterclass!
With a barrage of useless info available on UA-cam from battery “experts“, this is by far the most concise, clear and informative video on the subject for newbies. Well done!
Really!? Did you actually look at the graphs presented? Please use the graph at 21:20 to tell me when the battery is expected to reach 20% capacity. According to the graph, never! The rate of degradation slows down the older the battery becomes!? This makes no sense. Not a single car in the entire database has a capacity of less than 75% regardless of mileage and use? Not a single battery died? The chart is so flawed that its paradoxical.
Very good and accurate presentation. Anecdote: when Nissan presented the 1st Gen Leaf 2010, I told them it was a huge mistake to not include active thermal battery management. I had been driving an electric scooter for some years and knew about thermal issues first hand. They told me I surely wouldn't know more about batteries than their engineers, and I should just trust them. I didn't.
And then everybody clapped.
I've been picking my nose now for years so clearly I know way more than any brain surgeon.
HOW long your battery last?
KM and more imoortant age . HOW many years? Have you li-ion battery?
99feet your name 00to 999inches 9⁹
Nissan can use all the help in many areas from anyone.
Something you didn't mention here is that batteries packs are not just one giant indivisible unit. A battery pack is made of individual cells which can degrade unevenly over time. Some battery packs are also divided into batteries (ie. groups of cells) that the charge controller can isolate if the battery doesn't match the rest of the pack well enough for it to operate safely. This can be cause by a dead cell in one of the batteries.
All this means that if your battery loses a lot of capacity, it is often possible to find and replace bad cells in the battery pack, which can vastly increase your car's range, as it brings some of the battery back to life. Indeed there are already services out there that can do this for you, and it's a lot cheaper than just replacing the entire pack.
No right to repair.
@Larry Butler ice cars can catch fire too and more often then evs but many evs(excepting tesla) sucks and can catch fire even tesla evs catch fire sometimes but they not as often as other evs.
Theoretically. But with right to repair being in such a sad state most of these companies will either force you to replace the whole pack or do it through them at an astronomical price. I think people will be in for a rude awakening when they lose the ease of repairability they've taken for granted with gas.
@@TenebrusI07 yeah but also its hard to find a good mechanic because a lot of them are interested to make profit
Off course you are right with that, but most people depend on the usual repair shop, and usual mechanics dont even understand the 4-stroke process, nor are they realy familiar with obd, all they can do is change parts, and if that doesnt fix the problem, they change the next part and so on.
It's so refreshing to watch a UA-camr who actually references their information
My Tesla needs to make that moving lithium sound whenever I floor it now...
Electric motors actually make noise, the noise is just muffled by foam or something.
@@jd_kreeper Exactly! They sound like "brrrrr", "brrrrr", "brrrr".
MarcFireHart, You mean they sound like they’re freezing cold?
JD_Kreeper, So the foam keeps the motor warm so it’s not freezing and therefore doesn’t have to go “brrrr”?
@@terjeoseberg990 You have to watch the video to understand. I believe 6 min or so into it.
I have an 8 year old Nissan 100 thousand miles on the clock and 11 bars of capacity (81 %), driving in UK climate. Battery never goes under 20% charge and majority of time charged to 80%. Still going strong, and can get 70 miles on full charge. Bought for £7000 4 years ago. Very happy so cheap to run it has almost paid for itself. For a second hand car from £4-8000 they are well worth the money IMO.
Wow! It sounds like you got a great deal on that car! Thanks for sharing.
And as a counterexample, I have a 2012 Leaf and the battery is at 50% capacity. In the winter, I can't drive with the heater and have to stop to charge on the way home. My commute is only 20 miles each way.
Wow! Do you charge at work? I’m guessing not or that’d be downright unusable.
@@NateDecker1982 That sounds bad, do you drive in a temperate climate? Also do you drive in eco? When i first got the car it had 12 bars (87 %) and I used to drive only in normal mode, then after 6 months I lost a bar and decided to drive in eco. I have lost only 4 % capacity in 3 and half years since I did that, so that in addition to never letting the battery go below 20% and living in a temperate climate has most likely made the battery hold up so well. Also not sure if it makes much difference but my car is white, so in theory it could contribute to keeping the battery temperature down on hot summer days (since the leaf has no thermal management for the battery).
Sorry nate decker, big improvements in 13/14 plate leaf, better battery chemistry and heat pump heating. My 14 plate still does about 75 - 80 miles on a good day with air con on. The cost of being ane early adopter of new tech.
There is a UA-cam review of a Tesla that drove over 1 million miles; it was in near constant use and used supercharging. It required 4 battery packs in order to achieve 1 million miles. They got Telsa to replace 2 for free; but otherwise the cost would have been high; $80,000 USD just for the packs. So you can consider 250,000 to be a good rule of thumb for longevity of a pack, with a high or low temp envirnoment potentially cutting this further.
I interviewed a top energy expert on my home page vid. The expert warns that EV conversion will not happen and oil can never be replaced
This was the most informative/educational video I've seen in a long time, and at the same time perfectly understandable. Kudos and thanks!
Agreed
I teach chemistry, from now on ions make that noise when they move...."mmmbbbrrrr" 🤣
Very good video Josh. You gained a subscriber🎉
As an academic person, I love how you present your references and provide statistics to support your claims. Thumbs up for the great work!
“As an academic person..” Stroke yourself off a little harder there
Excellent presentation, well thought out and backed up with references to source material. Most informative, well done and thank you.
Excellent video! Thank you.
I cant believe I watched that entire thing from beginning to end! Excellently presented in language even I could understand. Here... have a sub!
In Norway, where a huge portion of these cars were sold, my Gen1 Leaf has lost two out of twelve bars after 8 years of daily use and charging every time I stop, so even if the range falls further during the winter, the over all cooler climate also reduses the Degradation. But yes, the drop in range does limit the freedom for those who don't have a 2nd car.
so eectric cars are cars for people who do not need a car.
@@eurobrowarriormonk7182 Yeah, that came out wrong. Reduces, to a degree. Current cars with 300km plus even in cool weather is good enough for most ppl. And the charging network in Norway is rather good, and getting better every month. We also got our first battery swap station last week, where one can "recharge" in 3 minutes.
So what I should have written is the rang drop is potentially limiting the freedom of some ppl with special needs.
65% of all cars sold in Norway in 2021 was electric, many were hybrid, and some were ICE. There are now 450 - 500 000 EV's in Norway, out of 2.8 million cars in total.
@@KjetilBalstad Well maybe classifying them as the same thing is the wrong way to go about it. Because they are not comparable as far as i can tell
@@KjetilBalstad What do people do when something that they have not actively managed their miles left fo comes up? what if you are arriving home and just before plugging up you get the call that a close relative is in the hospital dying and they are way out of range? There seems to be a lot of things people really buying into this electric crap have not really thought about much
@@eurobrowarriormonk7182 In reality you're just creating non-existing problems. Do you think 65% of all new cars sold would have been electric if they were so bad?
If you just came hom from long trip, and just managed to reach your home, and just as you parked got such a call, sure, it would be difficult to drive right away.
In such a case I would call for a Taxi, or ask my family, friends or neighbor or whatever to swap or borrow a car from them.
In reality, these things do not happen to such a degree that this could be considered a problem.
One of the best UA-cam Videos ever - PERIOD. I watch a lot of UA-cam video's and rarely subscribe. I instantly subscribed to your channel. This is the benchmark for UA-cam videos IMO. Well done Josh!
Very nice video! So I know I am doing fine with my 1988 Lincoln Town car! New battery is under $100. :)
thanks for providing all this info! we bought a used Nissan Leaf a few years ago and are very happy with it despite its battery capacity. We're hoping to purchase a larger family car soon, preferably an EV...
Wait till after 2026 when the government mandates remote kill switches for your EV, it's an awesome future full of freedom.
I have a 2015 Nissan Leaf at 72,000km at 78% SOH :) Not bad at all because I saved 72,000km cost of petrol :) I have been charging for free at our Local malls and never charge it at home :) because my house is near at out local malls ;) I can't complain about that! :)
I interviewed a top energy expert on my home page vid. The expert warns that EV conversion will not happen and oil can never be replaced
Nice overview! One more thing to add is that for long term storage of your EV (say, a few days or weeks), it is also good to keep your battery SoC (state of charge) low at about 35-50% and before use, again to charge it up to 75% and cycle it at low DoD's. It will last much longer. And definitley look out for EV's with some form of active cooling. But whether an EV is good for you is based on your commuting lifestyle.
Second this. Don't know how well it translates to cars, but Apple recommends charging your iPhone to 50% if you plan on storing it.
This video is extremely good, as already pointed out by numerous viewers. Congratulations on a superbly pedagogical and informative lecture!
I learned a lot from it, even though I had previously spent hours and hours studying Li battery degradation.
There are two things why this, generally spoken, great video leaves a bit of a taste.
Teslas are known for having some overprovisioning, which they can release when needed to "hide" the capacity loss of the whole pack". Example: If you have a pack of 100kWh, but you officially provide only 80kWh, you have 20kWh spare. If your whole pack lost 20% after a couple years, it's having then only 80kWh capacity left - coincidentally the same as you promised to the customer, so you can sell it as "There's no loss of battery capacity in a couple years". Many people use this as a sign for how good Teslas batteries would be, although everybody puts their pants on the same way.
The issue is, as long as those numbers are not know, you can't really talk about a loss of capacity and certainly not compare them between different vehicles and definitely not use them to extrapolate any performance into the future. Cause the batter that "performed well" until today might drop drastically in performance tomorrow, when the spare capacity is all used up.
And the statement "I'd buy a Tesla with 100 000 miles, if the price is right" is a bit of a null argument. If the price is right, I'd buy a Tesla with 1 000 000 miles. Maybe I even pay the value of a can of beer for it, but if I get that price, I'd buy it. What could I potentially lose with such a deal, if only the price is right (read: next to nothing)? I'd even buy one with 100 000 000 miles, if the price is right. At some point, the price might turn negative (so I'd get money for taking a pile of trash), but if the price is right, I'd even do that.
The interesting thing to know would be, what is the realistic value of a Tesla model S with 100 000 miles on the clock, considering the initial purchase price and the (with some likelihood) upcoming repairs on the next 100 000miles?
A car is worth more if sold by it’s individual parts. This is a fact. The problem comes from finding people that want to buy those parts.
An often overlooked but very important failure mode of lithium ion batteries is delamination. For a battery to work properly the layers must be in very good contact with each other. This makes a big difference between cylindrical cells and pouch or prismatic cells.
With prismatic or pouch cells there is no practical way to maintain pressure on the layers to keep them in contact. You could in theory use very thick steel plates to keep the layers compressed but they would have to weigh even more than the actual battery to be effective. Cylindrical cells on the other hand can very easily maintain that pressure simply because of geometry.
Very often when prismatic and even more so pouch cells fail it is by neither of the mechanisms described in the video but simply by the layers losing contact with each other. In cellphone batteries this is easily seen by the puffing up of the cell, caused by gas building up between the layers and forcing them apart. In a cylindrical cell this does not happen as the cell is not allowed to expand radially due to the metal cylindrical case. Instead of pushing the layers apart the gas slowly works its way to the outer edges of the cell and out through the relief vent.
This all makes me wonder how little EV manufacturers care about the life time of their batteries beyond warranty, Tesla being the only exception I know of that do seem to care. Pouch and prismatic cells have some significant advantages in terms of weight and even more so cost but only at the expense of being much less durable.
Thanks for that info!
Love your pace and how you don't yell at the camera. You've got a new sub. I'm going to have my boys watch this.
Great Video , and Josh you did a Great Job . The translation to me is ,, Batteries are a TOTAL JOKE RIGHT NOW ! .
Add the price of a new battery into your GAS milage and You loose if you buy an EV.
When the Price to charge it GOES THRU THE ROOF , from the greed of the OIL BURNING Stations charging more BECAUSE THEY CAN ON A WHIM ,, Now you have a super LOOSER.
And Don't for get the TOXIC UN GREEN BATTERY !!
AND ITS REPLACEMENT$ !!! Not yet would I ever want an EXPENSIVE LOOSER EV ...
I have a 2012 Model S and was concerned about Battery degregation and the $20,000 cost for a new Battery. Now after this video I feel more confident and secure that my Tesla will last a lot longer than expected.
Thanks for the info!
Check out Grubber Motors on UA-cam they do Tesla battery refurbishment without total replacement.
Judging by the quality, this channel deserves way, way more recognition
Great video, thank you very much. As the new owner of a used Tesla Model 3 with 50k miles on it, I appreciate the education that will no doubt assist me in getting the best longevity out of my battery pack. I'm also REALLY glad that I resisted the initial temptation of buying a used Nissan Leaf so I wouldn't have to spend as much on a used EV. The range limitation of the Leaf pretty much killed that option, frankly.
Wow so much info! A lot of it may have gone over my head but You did a great job explaining it all. Great info! Thanks 👊
Thanks Paul! Yea, it is a lot.
You really have provided tons of most important data specifically on battery technology that will be very important for all the EV users and would be users. Thanks
Smart Easy DIY, But he completely failed to define exactly what he means when he says “charge/discharge cycle”. If a vehicle has a range of 100 miles and you’re cycling between 100% and 25% does mean you’re driving 75 miles per cycle?
And what about cycling between 75% and 65%? Does that mean you get to drive only 10 miles per cycle?
Because if that’s what he means by, “cycle” then cycling between 75% and 65% doesn’t look very good any more. In fact, it then looks worse than cycling between 100% and 25%.
@@terjeoseberg990 A charge/discharge cycle is any time you use the battery, then charge it, whether a little or a lot. Part of the problem with the older ~80 mile Leafs is that many people HAVE to charge it often BECAUSE the range is so short. Hence, more charge and discharge cycles, which wears out the battery more.
@@terjeoseberg990 The own word says it "Cycle" If you know what It is then you know all this
It would be nice to see those charts adjusted for total miles driven before degradation instead of charging cycles. Personally that is a more useful metric for me.
There is no way to determine what you want. For example, if you live in a cold climate much of your battery capacity will be dedicated to keeping the vehicle warm. Load weight, type of driving and terrain will also have substantial impact on mileage. Also, testing is done related to charging cycles because mileage can be so variable depending on the above factors. Finally, to add icing on this cake, as the battery degrades, more charging cycles will be required to achieve the 'original' capacity, in effect accelerating the degradation!
This is the best and real video I ever seen, no bullshit just HONEST review
I talked to a Tesla engineer a few month ago and he told me that they were amazed by the current degradation of their batteries. Apparently it is significantly less than expected. He told me that Tesla is planning to put in place a battery shop for out-of-warranty cars in 2021 and that Tesla will buy back the old battery to reuse them (EDIT : After a recycling process of course !!!) in Powerwalls thus reducing the price of the new battery significantly.
That would be an awesome program if they do that. The Model S’s are starting to come off warranty, so having a method to offset the battery price would incentivize people to hold onto older cars.
He is only talking about averages, they sold me a brand new model 3 with -13% missing capacity and tell me “all good no errors, battery capacity is secret and health also, bye sir”
Model 3 SR+ with 208/240 miles.... They just first ghost me and talk about driving slower, charge habits... (tried All)
That refurbished Powerball. Lol
Good luck with the technician labor fees and the so called discount replacement battery.
There is a good market in Nissan Leaf batteries for homebrew power packs so Tesla really should be in this market.
Home batteries have far less demand than cars to they don’t need to be in tip top performance.
I thought I'd never understand how electricity works. And then I understood it in 5 minutes. An incredible mix of in-depth and clarity. Huge kudos.
Yea, electricity was something I had a hard time understanding as well.
The Best battery explanation video I had ever seen. Great job 👍👌.
Simplified, understandable.
Everything included in a single video.
Combination of experience and animation help understand things better.
THANK YOU
As an automotive technician, I would like to say that the demand for more economic battery repairs/replacement will drive innovation. Some of us gear heads will figure out how to keep you on the road more economically.
Bingo, huge opportunity for new EV shops to open up with Electronic Techs dropping batter packs diagnosing and refurbishing just the bad cells etc. Check out Gruber Motors on UA-cam
I own a 1st gen 2013 Nissan Leaf, I am it's second owner, purchased it with very low mileage a few years ago, the tested battery degradation is just below 10% which is fantastic for a car purchased new in the latter half of 2012. I have charged it to 100% a few times to be able to make some ~80 mile round trips, I paid a few thousand $$$'s for it & in the last year have only needed to replace the very well worn original tires which has made it an excellent purchase.
The same with me, 2013 leaf
@Trius I use the Leaf for work use & travel to work sites within ~20 miles or less from my home, the leaf is plugged in virtually at all times due to it's typically abysmal charge rate, I get reimbursed per mile I drive at the same rate whether I'm driving an EV or Gas/Diesel powered vehicle, at this point the leaf has paid for itself & more.
@@perseverance8
Your situation is called an 'outlier' in regard to a statistical sample's single point of data (aka: your situation is the exception, rather than the norm/rule).
CERTAIN electric vehicles (BTW, a MUCH better label/description of these type of vehicles is a 'battery-operated vehicle') definitely have their place in our society. These vehicles include mopeds, golf carts, forklifts, segways, & children's toys.
Unless battery technology takes a HUGE leap forward from what we have now, there is ABSOLUTELY no way, IMHO, that transportation (especially in regard to cargo transportation/trucking/shipping) will NEVER become a fossil fuel-free system.
Just because California's idiot Governor states that by 2035? (I think he set a 2035 deadline, not 100% sure), all new vehicles manufactured after 2034 in the state of California must not be a fossil fuel-consuming type of vehicle. I'm definitely missing some pieces of information in re: to this idiotic mandate CA has set for itself & it's poor citizens.
I'm not at all fond of the way B.O.C.s cannot be 're-fueled/re-charged' to 100% (aka: a full tank) in NO WHERE near the amount of time it takes to fill a fossil-fueled car. AND, for those of us that sometimes 'get a wild hair' & just get up on a Saturday morning & just start driving to 'wherever the road leads'... well, that's not gonna happen in an E.V. (B.O.P.).
Why not? Well, unless you know where every charging station is located within a 200 mile radius, good luck going on a 'random adventure' without the constant worry of being stranded w/out any battery power left in the car. And NOPE, someone can't just bring you a few gallons of battery-power in a can. : (
*BOTTOM LINE: BATTERY-OPERATED CARS SHOULD CONTINUE TO BE, IMHO, AN ★OPTION★ FOR THOSE (FEW) OF US THAT HAVE A DRIVING SITUATION THAT FITS THE WAY A B.O.C. IS 'FUELED'.*
@Trius How does your laptop and phone work out for you? That's how I charge my electronics, an electric car and my electric bikes - when I don't need them. No interest in charging while I wait for them. I've done it with an EV on a fast charger but it is a time waster. A little planning goes a long way.
@Trius We have multiple cars. When we need to do a long trip, we take the "big" car. The EV would be fine 95% of the time for my family. The big car would be the choice for towing, long distances, and carrying four adults.
I have 4 years old phone with less than a half original battery capacity. 80% capacity after 8 years is excellent.
Half sucks.
Excellent explanation. Thanks!
I’d love to hear what the differences are (if any) in how a lithium iron phosphate battery should be treated in an ev. I did read something that said you could repeatedly run it from 0-100% charge without degradation, but I don’t know it that is true.
This is a very informative video and does make me have a second look in this aspect of EVs.
Just my minor qualm is the use of bar graphs that starts from 50% (or 70%) to 100% instead of the full 0 to 100% range in 21:20 15:03 22:45. This has the effect of making the values "look" worse than they really are and actually a subtle "tactic" esp by government officials in presenting things that they like to exaggerate in the visuals. Sure the graphs are still accurate and discerning viewers should take note of that, but this partially defeats the core purpose of using graphs which is to quickly AND accurately visualize proportions in a glance.
This video dissertation is truly educational. A plus is the vocal track has a wide understanding by Second Language English viewers.
Excellent video and explanation. I wish you elaborated a little more on the impact of cold weather on an older battery. I heard a lot of horror stories where people got stranded on the highway, when temperatures dropped suddenly late at night while they were driving home from a long day trip. It's not like you can have AAA come and loan you a battery pack till you get to the next charging station. The industry needs to move towards some standardized "power nodes" to facilitate a short trip, 20-30 miles, to get you to a charging station without getting the whole vehicle towed.
"The industry needs to move towards some standardized "power nodes" to facilitate a short trip"
By "the industry"...are you referring to the taxpayers?
If you are, this conversation is over.
@@jimmartin181 What?
It's pretty easy to initiate a public campaign to push EV companies to make this a feature. Not everything is done by the government (these days, hardly anything is)
@@jerbid_ Who do you think is going to do it? Private industry? If they take on the project it will only happen via government subsidies. The cost to wire the country for EVs would never be saddled by those who want to buy EVs. Therein lies the role of the taxpayers.
You are aware that more than 40% of the cost of a Tesla is subsidized by the government already...right?
I vote NO.
@@jimmartin181 Wut? Tesla gets no subsidies anymore for awhile. The cap was 200,000 EV cars sold and they already passed that a long time ago.
@@jimmartin181 You're probably thinking of SpaceX
I had an issue with my electric bike where the battery had degraded over six years into being useless, The lady in the bike shop sent it to her “battery guy” and when I got the battery back it was fine and running normally. No cells were replaced. What he did was balance them, he recharged the five modules as if one module degraded, the whole battery would degrade.
So I call this guy a battery whisperer. This might be an up and comming profession where aging cells are recharged individually to work normally with the rest. I’ve had this battery for three months and it could fail again in four months or three years, I don’t know.
I can imagine a cottage industry of battery whisperers who can delay the inevitable cost of battery replacement.
All high quality li-ion packs have integrated balancers, and I can guarantee any modern electric car will have one-so it shouldn't be an issue for full sized EVs. Still, for less expensive (and possibly lower quality) e-bikes and scooters, balancing the battery definitely will help it last longer!
All cats have a BMS system that auto balances during charging. Youbwould kind of expect them too, since cars are kind of expensive. Cars also typically have warranties, Kia for instance has a 10 year battery warranty, average is 7 yeafs/100k miles.
Besides balancing, sometimes the pack gets discharged too low, and the BMS disables the pack. By manually bringing the lowest cell above the BMS's threshold, the pack will work again. Most of the time.
Bms of ebike are often crap with very bad balance cell.
But we have the chance that in ebike we can remove and change only bad cell, not the entire battery. :D
@@Unnaymed Some ebike battery makers makes it hard to even balance them manually, because of water resistance.
Water resistance... A necessary evil that makes everything harder to repair.
Lets correct one thing. I have a 2012 Leaf bought it 2013 at the dealership brand new. Lost 5 bars; contacted Nissan Canada through dealership and they said warranty is 5 years only; not 8 years; as you were showing your graph at 10:12.
You know, there is one aspect, that has various impact on car´s interior temperature - the color. So if the car is white, the battery suffers less in hot weather, than when the car has another color (with black cars being affected the most due to black color attribute). Bear in mind, that the color of interior matters as well - having white car with black interior only means all outside metal parts won´t be affected, but due to interior dark color, there will be literally hell inside.
Now do cold, which is where the majority of degradation occurs
Me justifying to my wife why the white interior upgrade on the tesla is a good idea
@@Byefriendo you can also use window tint foils, it doesn´t matter if the tint is fully black or semi-transparent - they all work the same, there is a variant usable on front doors, that is fully transparent and only deflects heat; it has a con tho - you won´t be able to break the windows, if needed.
if i owned a tesla for the amount of time i had my first car, i would've replaced the batteries 3-4 times. if i wanted to sell it after, the price would not be based on how well i kept the car but only on how old the batteries are. at this point, i'd be in the hole for more than double what the car is worth
Pesky little facts none of the manufacturers want to admit, not do the green fanatics pushing evs as they are all only concerned about ending fossil fuels regardless of the impact on people or our industrial economy. Every data point I see makes me think the whole ev thing is another scam.
Why would you say that when the data in this video showed how well liquid cooled batteries hold their range over time? Would you be buying new batteries after losing 20% of the total range after 8 years? And did you have your first car for 32 years?
This is the question I wished the Swedish government asked! As they are pushing hard for EV, basically punishing those who simply can't afford them. Gas prices are bonkers with the amount of tax. The power grid is also not made for EV consumption. I'm all for EVs, but all the pros and cons must be considered. To punish a people with the no ability to change that quickly only leads to resistance...
I just recently Purchased a 2015 Model S 70D with over 400k miles. Yes, thats over 80k/yr, or almost 7k/mo.
The original battery was actually replaced at about 250k, so the current pack has around 150k which seems to have somewhere between 15-20% degredation. Its pretty impressive how well it's held up given the amount of abuse that it has seen (at least 5-600 supercharging cycles, and probably a whole lot of 100% charge and deep discarge cycles).
How is that model s holding up?
@@Energy.Theory still doing great! It's now at 425k mi and counting!
Used LEAF should be looked at as a motorized umbrella - as long as your expectations are realistic, it will serve well.
I bought a used 2015 Leaf with 38K miles & showed 12 bars/battery. Just over 1 month owning it lost a bar to 11 . . . but still showed 82 mile range available. NOW at more than 3 years owning it lost another bar to 10 . It appears to still have a range of 78 miles . . . I am devastated ! ! ! (Joking) Seldom drive up to 30 miles at a time , keep it in the garage, & only slow charge up to about 70%. Am 69 years old . . . . . am pretty sure it & it's battery will outlast me ! I love it, drive it often . . . just not far!
AND . . . if you like Jazz . . . you may want to check out Angelina Jordan on UA-cam .
Take care , RH
@Allen Loser how much more he would have spent in maintenance if he did?
@Allen Loser with Versas having issues with its transmission, that's debatable. Also, the leaf owner already said he doesn't need a battery replacement. I still see first generation LEAFs running, and probably Richard still have many years before having to exchange it.
@Allen Loser So he should ditch the comfort of driving auto to get a manual, so he doesn't have an issue with a Versa? Is this really a solution?
Do you know what's funny? Is that even though there're 1st gen LEAFs running, a 2015 LEAF is far away from being 1st gen.
I owned a 96 Golf. Ten years later, I got stranded in the middle of buttfuck nowhere because the engine died. Good luck with yours.
@Allen Loser I own a 96 Toyota Camry, and I love that car, I also work with batteries for electric bikes and I know a lot of the things you're saying about batteries aren't true or greatly exaggerated for the worst.
Also, you seem to ignore the OPs needs just because you seem to have a hard-on for ICE cars.
Great unbiased video, thanks!
I interviewed a top energy expert on my home page vid. The expert warns that EV conversion will not happen and oil can never be replaced
This is a very nice video with clear explanations. One small comment is that LEAF do have active thermal management which heats up the battery if too cold and prevent excessive usage when too hot, what they do miss is liquid cooling, which becomes a relevant issue when living in hot areas
I am driving a 2017 leaf.
I drive the car not like a maniac n my battery is still almost 100percent.
It all depends on ur driving style n ur daily needs.
No it doesnt they have a lifetime period
@@gowdsake7103 Batteries do age, but how you drive, the climate you live in, and how you charge it are hugely significant as well. You're incorrect if you believe that age is the only factor. NASA has decades old space probes with batteries that are still going strong, because they treat them right.
The people involved in the "Radio Controlled" hobbies have understood the practical side of these concepts for a long long time now....30+ years myself. I've always viewed fully electric cars as full size RC cars...we understand the high performance characteristics too because we have been essentially scale modeling these ideas and forever...
Of course train locomotives - the original hybrid vehicles, pioneered all of it 80 years ago....
“Driving in normal conditions. Not in Alaska”
*Stares in Confused Alaskan*
This is really incredible!! Your animations are getting so complex but still look beautiful! Love the info being presented in a way that’s so easy to digest
Yea, I almost bit off more than I was ready for. Haha. I really wish I’d been keeping track of my time on this one. Thank you though 😀
One subtlety about depth of discharge is that if you're only discharging 10% before recharging, then you're not getting much mileage per cycle. e.g. if the full range is 300 miles, then a 10% charge cycle is only 30 miles driven. So 8000 cycles is comparable to about 1066 100%-25% cycles. The 85%-25% discharge seems to be very close to the performance of the 75%-65% (8000 cycles / 6 is 1333 cycles) if you take that into account. There might be an even better point that maximizes total miles compared to capacity loss. I remember reading a paper that said that 90%-40% maximized the total usage compared to capacity loss.
I lose about 10 miles on a 40 mile range mercedes hybrid on a cold day. It hasn't recovered yet since purchasing it in march 2021. That's a significant reduction and almost a deal breaker. Or maybe would have been had I known how bad it would get. Other than that the car is one of the best I've driven day to day.
Is it one of those smart cars made by Mercedes? I'm just curious.
Thanks you so much for this video. I really appreciate the logical structure and that you added the "km" to the milage you mention :)
I currently drive a 2012 leaf with 30k miles. I bought it for 3k 6 months ago. My driving range on the freeway from a full charge is roughly 25-30 miles in the spring. or 65 miles on surface streets. Yesterday, in 20 degree weather, my surface range was closer to 30 miles... lol.
The statistical analysis was splendid! keep up the good work )
I'm not so sure: 23:08 -- from the data presented, the rate of degradation for the Bolt seems much worse than the Model 3: 100% to 90% in 3 or 4 years, vs 6 - 8 years.
Amazing presentation skills and really great usage of animations. The production quality of this video can only be matched the richness of the content. Subscribed instantly!
I'm driving a used 2017 Volt. I've noticed that in the winter, a full charge might take me only 38 miles, but in the summer I get around 53 miles of range, which is basically the same as it was when the car was new.
It is realy depressing that you only have1,5k views after one week. I love your videos
Thanks Martin! They are slowly but surely rising. This one might be a slow burn
The length might be a turn off for some people, but great video, very detailed explanation.
Most EV owners have their heads in the lithium quartz. 🤣😋
@@chargeeverywhere you are right, it's got lots of views now 🤗 well doneee
lmao, I love that you didn't use the conventional electron flow!
You should do an update to this video. Tesla S batteries are dropping like flies these days. Typical error is 'Maximum battery charge reduced' and a BMS_u029 error. This requires the battery pack to be replaced at a typical cost of $20,000!!
I interviewed a top energy expert on my home page vid. The expert warns that EV conversion will not happen and oil can never be replaced
Very nice video. The explanation of how the battery works was very well done. I might have also mentioned the base units of voltage (J/C) since you were discussing energy but this is a minor issue.
It would also be interesting to hear your thoughts about energy density and the resulting weight of battery packs in the current fleet of electric vehicles. My understanding is that the Bolt for example has a battery pack that claims 50% of the vehicle weight. And it is not uncommon to see battery packs that weigh 1,000 lb. I struggle to see how this makes sense in a passenger car and even less so in a pickup truck.
Jesus. I’m 21 seconds into this video and already love it.
I’ll update when I finish :)
Wow. Definitely will have to watch a second time but that was amazing.
Haha. Thanks man!! That means a lot. I'm glad you liked it cause it was a bear to make; thus why it took me so long to finish.
Nikola Garage dude. The little animated electric particle dudes with their funny noises etc were awesome.
The way you used a water wheel to explain the motor. Brilliant.
Epic data, made entertaining and educational.
Every new frame I was wondering how much time it took but the end result was just incredible. You set the bar.
Glad you appreciated the silly noises. I wasn’t sure on that, but my wife thought it was cool. Yea, I spent way too much time on this (maybe close to 80 hours?), but thank you! I’m glad you liked it.
I am not even kidding when I say that I understood how batteries work for the first time. Great video!
Good presentation and good use of published data. One consideration, on the plot of Depth of Discharge and Battery Life Capacity (16th minute), it shows that a 75% charge to 65% discharge (10% recharge) retains the most original battery capacity. However, how far can you go with a 10% recharge. If compared to a 85% charge to 25% discharge (60% recharge), you could go 6 times farther. So, a 60% recharge loses about 17% of battery capacity after 5000 cycles. A 10% recharge would need 30,000 cycles to go the same distance. To compare apples to apples, how much capacity loss loss for a 10% recharge at 30k cycles? My guess is that it would be similar to the capacity loss of the 60% recharge. It's interesting that a 75% recharge (100 to 25%) losses more capacity with similar mileage. Maybe the take-a-way is that the batteries should not be recharged fully.
That's the key question, and it's on the screen at 16min in. Say 75% of capacity is your end of life. That's 5k cycles at the red 3/4 DoD or (extrapolating), 10k cycles at much lower 60%DoD. Multiply DoD x cycles to get the total energy we were able to add to --- and extract from -- the battery. In this test: far longer life (total vehicle mileage) is available if you do only shallow cycles. I've heard anecdotally you shouldn't charge to full capacity during first part of life, and that implication is here too but it's much harder to be sure about it; can you confidently extrapolate that white curve out to 15k cycles? I've seen these fall off a cliff off to the right edge of the curve. I think the summary is: don't discharge it all the way. I was surprised at the other main takeaway: supercharging isn't bad. I'm still suspicious of that one.
Well presented, knowledgeable, impartial presentation. Call me a dinosaur, but I'm steering well clear of electric cars until they can compete with diesel range. I've just over half filled the tank in an old Volvo S40 and the range is 540 miles. No such thing as range anxiety, takes 5 mins to fill. You do the math.
I have a diesel truck with a pretty big tank. I can almost make it to Denver (from Vegas) I tow heavy toys. Boat, Jeeps, Can Am SxS's.
Gas car owners will begin to suffer from range anxiety in the not-so-distant future. Once the gas stations start shutting down en masse.
Bad news for you. As EVs make up more and more of the cars on the road has stations will begin to disappear.
@@FallLineJP That will never happen. Keep dreaming my friend.
@@lachoneu2 Haha yeah keep dreaming.
In regards to 'quick charging' of batteries. When you try to hammer them with more current to speed it up is that you heat them alot more (there's an internal impedance in all batteries and the higher the charging current, the more heat inside each battery). Heat or energy is I^2 x R (current squared time resistance inside battery). So if you double the charging current to try to halve the time, you increase the heating 4 X . That's a major issue.
Top Tier Content. Hope this chanel growth quickly. Amazing quality and presentation.
Batteries are no magic anymore for me, thx.
From an engineers view, the best thermal management of EVs has the Porsche Taycan
btw. ... Great video!
Acutally Rimac has the best thermal management system atm.
How so?
Please explain. I'm fascinate by thermal management. I thought the octovalve was supposed to be the bees knees.
Thanks
The data will determine who has the "best" thermal management. Keep in mind a superior thermal management may not change much is they have inferior cell chemistry. There is no data yet on Taycan battery degradation and won't be for some time.
A fantastic video Josh. I'm surprised that you don't have many more subs. Anyway, glad to add to that number instantly - it rarely ever happens.
Really great, comprehensive video. And great thanks for translating those funny miles into actual distances 😉
Best explanation of battery chemistry I have seen so far!
17:39 - Donner Summit in Northern California. Fun fact you can actually hike through those train tunnels, as a portion of the line was bypassed and abandoned. Its about five miles. The tunnels end and you can continue along till you reach the current line. Totally recommend if you are in the Tahoe Donner area. 22:20 Donner Summit Bridge overlooking Donner Lake. Its funny seeing this bridge show up in many car commercials.
Like so many others here, I would like to say thank you for the efforts into giving us this great overview.
Honest and non biased datas on this stuff is important information.
Thank you !
very interesting knowhow has Tesla due to provide extra wire to each battery cell and charge separately particularly - this is huge exacting for software and hardware controlling charging process but this is "something special", tesla cars are extraordinary by this way and, according to my meaning, leader in this technique, my opinion
@@janblaha2071 Yes tesla is game changing in battery manufacturing, conception management !!!
As a former Tesla owner, this is on par. Living in the Carolinas, we have long, hot summers, and the further west you go, have relatively short, cold winters. As such, my prior 70D lost about 4% per year over 5 years. In the winter, thermal loss was high. An example would be pulling out if my heated garage at 100%, and driving 40 miles to my parents house, and driving back after dinner, and going from 217 miles of range, to pulling back in after 80 miles with ~ 60 miles of range or about 20% capacity. Most of that travel was at highway speeds and it performed worse in cold weather temperatures. I always got better distance in the fall and spring, but found myself charging more during winter. Maybe I overcharged the battery as a result which led to the loss of distance.
8000 cycles from 75-65% is the same amount of discharge as 100%-0% 800 times.
Whoever thought to measure discharge cycles this way is making this misleading.
Despite that, I'm still getting a Tesla.
@Allen Loser
No but your fuel pump may have a word with you sooner or later.
you are misunderstanding a cycle which is common, I did it once too. 1 cycle = 100% DoD total. 8k cycles of 10% DoD is actually going 75-65% 80k times.
I've seen that capacity versus cycles graph for different depths of discharge many times, but one thing that it's missing and that would be more useful to show on the x axis would be energy delivered. The 75%-65% line shows degradation down to about 92% at 8000 cycles, but each cycle is only delivering 10% of the battery's rated capacity to a load. This is roughly equivalent to a number of miles driven for a car. The 85%-25% line shows degradation to about the same level (92%) at around 1300 cycles, but it's delivering 6 times as much energy per cycle, so the energy delivered to the load (and by extension, miles driven) in those 1300 cycles is about the same as the energy delivered in 8000 cycles doing 75%-65%. Quite frankly, I don't think owners are as interested in the number of times they've plugged the thing in. They're more interested in how many miles they've driven or how many years of driving they're getting.
One cycle usually means 100% of the battery capacity. Even if you see 75-65%, they made 10 of those to count as a single cycle.
But I agree that this should've been mentioned in the video.
The confusing part is that it's a different type and rate of wear than we're used to thinking about with cars. Like with a typical internal combustion engine, the mileage is one of the most important things to note about a used car because there's usually an expected repair costs associated with certain milestones. Every car is different depending on the quality of maintenance and parts ofc, but it's generally fairly reliable.
I have to say that my first thought when hearing about the Leaf's issue with cooling was "how expensive and difficult would it be to install a basic cooling system for the battery?" Cuz I could see that being a popular addon service if it was reasonably priced and something that could be installed in the available space under the hood. But knowing car companies and how they tend to design things under the hood, there's rarely any extra space.
@@petrkubena WHAT? That matteres a LOT, obviously. You sure about that?
$20k plus for a used car. FFS. I purchased a 3 year old high milage (over 100k) diesel Volvo with more bells and whistles than I will ever use for £6k/$8k. It pretty much still does the same mpg as when I purchased it and it is still worth about £6k. I would drive an EV but until such time as I can match the above I am stuck with ICE.
Very informative. Very respectful of you to openly admit to your limits of knowledge of specific deep topics. Big thumbs up. Thanks.
I guess one next step should be normal in the near future: the interchangeable battery. This means that if you buy a new car you can take the battery from the old one. This should be compatible at least inside the same brand.
If I am not mistaken, this was the initial concept considered by Tesla. Also, EV makers in China have been doing it for years. In August Chinese automaker Nio announced that it had just completed its 500,000th battery swap. If they went to battery swaps, I would probably be more inclined to buy an EV.
You don't do this with a car engine or gas tank. Why would you do this with an EV?
@@ThomasBomb45 you don't need to change the electrical engine but if you have an expensive component that can be reused and that also pollutes if is disposed I beleave that would be nice to reuse it.
@@ThomasBomb45 Because filling a gas tank with fuel is much quicker than charging a battery. Did you really need that explained to you?
I love the little sounds the Lithium makes when moving across the battery! Pure genius!
There is a lot of FUD about a vehicle battery range diminishing and it becoming worthless or "totaled". It's not as if the EV just stops working once the range degrades to say 50% which could take decades of use. Think on this: If a new Leaf has 80 miles of range and a used Model S is degraded to 50% and only provides 100 miles of range, how is that worthless? Even degraded to a level that some would consider not acceptable for that model, for others its better than what they are buying brand new.... Used vehicles have a purpose as well such as new teen drivers (where some parents might like the range prohibited) or "runners" to keep miles off of your other "My Baby" special vehicle, food delivery fleets, or even as a backup vehicle.... If V2G ever gets off the ground, that diminished old EV turd in the garage could provide a few hours of home backup power when in need. Note: Even an ICE vehicle loses range per tank as it ages due to the loss of efficiency and wear of internal components.
18650 Batts only have 10 year shelf life when stored at 80% and not even used.
If you used it everyday 1 full cycles it would last 3 years
Thanks for a very informative and useful clarification of the practical effects that can be expected. Will you be making an updated one showing how new Tesla batteries will improve on longevity?
I am using a 11amp lithium ion battery from 2015 in my electric bike, its still got about 18 to 20 miles of its original 30 miles range used in winter and summer with a significant drop of because of the cold in winter, I wrap it in a sleeping matt to help with cold in winter and never charge it until it been in the house for a couple of hours, good video.
Good overview. One suggestion. A better historical data comparison would have been from the 1st generation Chevy Volt (not Bolt). The 1st generation Volt came out about same time as the Leaf (yes beating the Tesla S). But unlike the Leaf (but like the Tesla), the Volt has cooling (and heating modes thanks to the generator, aka engine) when necessary. Why not check that Volt data for the past 10+ years? How do I know this? Because I bought one of the first ones in early 2011 and still use it daily. I would say the range is a little less then when I first bought it but not to where its a problem. So.... I bet you the older Volt (like the newer Bolt) would show similar results to your Tesla results but give you more of the historical edge. Thoughts?
Your videos are so good, the editing and quality are amazing as always. You should have much more subs.
my tessla is 4 years old and i started with 310 miles new and it gets 307 today. Best purchase i ever made.