Electric Vehicles' Battery Problem
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- Опубліковано 10 січ 2022
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Writing by Sam Denby
Editing by Alexander Williard
Animation by Josh Sherrington
Sound by Graham Haerther
Thumbnail by Simon Buckmaster
[1] lighthouse.mq.edu.au/article/...
[2] www.forbes.com/sites/rrapier/...
[3] www.statista.com/statistics/2...
[4] www.spglobal.com/platts/en/ma...
[5] tradingeconomics.com/commodit...
[6] tradingeconomics.com/commodit...
[7] pubs.usgs.gov/periodicals/mcs...
[8] eplanning.blm.gov/public_proj...
[9] www.nytimes.com/2021/05/06/bu...
[10] gbrw.org/wp-content/uploads/20...
[11] www.sierranevadaally.org/2021...
[12] thisisreno.com/2021/11/judge-...
[13] www.statista.com/statistics/2...
[14] www.spglobal.com/platts/en/ma...
[15] www.latimes.com/business/stor...
Select footage courtesy Getty and AP; Select imagery courtesy Geolayers; Select music courtesy Epidemic sound
One way to cut the growing demand for lithium, cobalt, etc. is massively shifting mobility towards public transport, cycling, and walking in combination with more efficient land use promoting these modes of transport. It's not an easy fix either, but we've known that it works for decades and we have all the technology we need for it, so we can start that shift right now.
Your solution is walking?
lol yeah i kinda of agree
this. car ownership also directly affects economic mobility. its much harder to get ahead in life when you need to put down hundreds or thousands for something that you pretty much need, at least in North America.
Good options for many places but just not viable for the US. It's just too big and spread out. Outside of the I-95 corridor on the east coast, population density is surprisingly low.
@@wingracer1614 it can still be served by public transportation
The irony of HelloFresh sponsorship is pretty strong here. Every ingredient uses disposable, one-time-use packaging, and each shipment requires another freezer pack and high cost individual shipping. It produced a laughable amount of plastic waste compared to shopping at a grocery store.
It's for lazy people
What do you expect
Humans love of convenience is gonna be a hard habit to break for sure!
@@ymj4256 let's judge. His comment is valid. Your isn't.
If read closely, he's pointing out the irony in the vid. Your comment gave no perspective.
That’s why I stopped HelloFresh as well… for PRODUCE food! 🤦♂️ at least use compostable bags
As for lithium, there's a reason it's found in dry places. It's because lithium salts are dissolved by water, so they get accumulated and concentrated only in dry places.
through evaporation i guess?
@@imalittletoxicjustalittle yes, the rocks are actually called evaporites because of the fact they are "created" via evaporation
Don't play into the global warming scam electric death.
@@ricktd6891 you sound a lot like the guys who used to say electricity kills back in the AC vs DC wars
@@MrOpenGL Are you a child? Go learn some science and don't play with electricity. You won't be able to handle it and you might die.
I just read a bunch of the comments and not a single one has mentioned how all these EVs will bring many (or most) power grids to their knees or worse. The infrastructure simply isn't in place to handle the kind of demand charging all of those vehicles will require. California is already begging their citizens to try and charge their EVs in "off" hours so as not to cause brown outs and outages. I can't imagine how things will work when the number of EVs multiplies like they want.
To be fair nearly all of Americas Electric Grid is desperately needing upgrades with most of them being built before the 1970's and haven't seen upgrades for decades.
But yes EV's will indeed put a strain on yhe Grid but practically everything else can be classified as bringing the Grid a burden without good reason like Adverts on Billboards and Screens and AC Usage
EV’s should raise electric costs (by rough zero scientific calculation) of something like 40 kWh per car per day. We could say it would double household electricity consumption (but not industrial consumption).
Let’s give a rough number, say 70% increase in electric grid usage.
It is high, but not disqualifying. Solar panels are becoming increasingly prevalent in sunny regions, such as california. Those output those 40 kWh a day. Their growth will cover a big chunk of those 70% increase.
The flattening of the power usage will be a win for utilities. Energy storage technologies will help. That will reduce waste and lower peak demands.
I find the grid problem to be lesser than the battery supply chain problem. A notable problem, but fixable.
“Artisinal mining” is such a classy way of phrasing forced child labor in unsafe conditions
Seriously, hats off to whoever came up with that
Those child slaves are _artisans_!
Artisinal doesn mean "forced child labor", it means something is made in traditional or non mechanized way. Pay attention to a word " traditional ", child labor in mines there common thing for hundreds maybe even thousands of years. It has to stop obviously, but it doesn't mean that anything named Artisinal includes child labor.
@@JackieWelles he didn’t state that it did. He implied that they have misused the term and been creative in their use of the term
@@AlexG-wk3nh Even so, the term they use is not wrong. Child labor is much bigger problem because its not just about mining, those families don't have enough money or chances to earn money anywhere else. This is often not some forced labor rather people not having a choice and I blame governments who allow people to fall that far!
In my country there's an issue where people mine for coal in makeshift shafts. Of course it is totally black market with lots of injuries and deaths. The word for it translates directly in english to "Poverty Shafts". Good to know we can now call them artisans, or maybe craft coal?
One thing Sam should get tons of credit for is the story organization. This is an INCREDIBLY complex story and he's done a phenomenal job turning it into a well-organized, easy-to-understand story
also thought provoking I'm siting here questioning my moral line.
Much better than the CNBC one
Sam is incapable of doing sub perfection
@@liquidKi American problems require American solutions
agreed, his presentation skills are top notch.
no one's talking about the radon gas that gets kicked up from the mines/ground from the drilling for lithium, and the green acid sludge that companies let sit at mining sites from the extraction process left to percolate and destroy ground water and lakes and streams cause no one wants to deal with that stuff or rather have no solution to that huge waste problem
It's almost like this fake green revolution is worse for the environment than our gas cars...cars that only account for 16% of the world's C02 production.
Radon is produced by the decay of radioactive elements (U, Th, etc) in the earth's crust.
It seeps out EVERYWHERE. Doesn't matter whether you dig or not.
It also has a very short half life (~3.8 days).
It becomes a problem in CLOSED rooms, not out in the open (like open pit mines).
Well its almost like people believe that they care about the planet, or ther people.
SO TRUE. THESE GUYS LIE LIKE A RUG.
Laughed out loud at the sponsor at the end of the video being Hello Fresh. After 20 minutes of green talk, a sponsorship from a company that packages each tiny ingredient in plastic, then ships it to you? I know that the creator is smart enough to know that this plastic is indeed not 'recyclable'.
Sponsorships make the algorithm go round
The global warming scam is nothing but environmental damage and animal and human genocide.
@@ricktd6891 You're saying it's all fake? As opposed to companies wanting you to believe it's fake so they can keep doing what they've always done
@@VitaeLibra The problem with what you're saying is you're assuming what they said is true and CO2 is some kind of pollution and therefore companies have been polluting the planet with it. That's the opposite of the truth. Atmospheric CO2 is not pollution, it's plant food and there's TOO LITTLE in the atmosphere, not too much. Life thrived in 7000 PPM and there was no catastrophic global warming.
@@VitaeLibra The dangerous level of atmospheric CO2 we're closets to is 150 PPM, at which point all plants die, all animals die, we all die. At 1200 PPM to 1600 PPM we all live and plants thrive and there's more food on the planet, not less. The Earth is actually historically cold right now too, not historically hot. Want to see it? Search : "Global temperature and atmospheric CO2 over geologic time/graph/images."
of course, hellofresh will help me reduce my impact on the environment by packing literally everything in an absurd amount of plastic.
Yeah this sponsorship doesn't add up. There are far more economic and environmental friendly options than this.
Lmaoo that's true😂
@@hiiamelecktro4985 paypal me 3000£
Yeah. Almost all the green marketing are worse.
What's worse is he blatantly declares it as a way to decrease your emissions. This is shameful. The guy is just a fucking sellout.
I am a geologist and every time I say this to someone who's on about electric cars will fix everything... The issue is more how much we are using raw materials not what we are using... We reached peak mining in 1980s for most raw material, every years it's getting more and more expensive to mine these resources... Sadly our entire economic system is measured by growth which can only be fulfilled by more mining more resources
Yes, that's the key problem. Continuous growth required by our monetary system.
You can always expand in services, pretty much what Japan did.
MJ japans population is shrinking. By 2050 there will 25% smaller population there.
@@MJ-uk6lu You mean like a service economy? How does that fix anything? Service economies rely on industrial and manufacturing economies for their equipment, supplies, etc..
Hydrogen must be the answer then
How reusable/recyclable are the batteries after their end of life?
100% lithium recovery?
50% recovery?
Are we going to be facing a massive pollution problem from these batteries being tossed in landfills or storage like with plastic bottles, used solar panels, used wind turbines?
They are 98% recyclable, the remaining 2% is just some plastic which we hopefully will also be able to recycle one day
Yes and no. By hand they can be disassembled and used to make more batteries. But 95% of lithium batteries go to the landfill. It costs less to make batteries from new. The nickel and cadmium are extracted but that is all. What you should really be worried about is water. Contaminating and pumping 500,000 gallons of water per ton of lithium is an environmental disaster on a global scale. That alone should halt this ev market in it's tracks
Due to the nature of the recycling methods, it would actually generate more carbon emissions to recycle them than it would take to make new batteries.
@@SmokeElectronics It makes sense that tiny batteries in small electronics aren't recycled, but the amount of recyclable material in an EV is enormous. Tossing it in a landfill tossing out profit.
Europe might be banning Lithium due to this. They are horrible for the environment, which is a reason why solar panels and wind turbines are bad for the environment (and why nuclear is the way to go)
The Hello Fresh ad at the end is truly ironic
"How much bad should be allowed for the greater good?" The question with which this video ends is not only applicable for EVs but for a lot of things. That is such a powerful question.
utilitarian ethics is all about this.
This implies that there is no existence or reduction in badness in the world. Aren't we as consumers committing bad deeds every day by the way we consume and by how much?
Nagasaki and Hiroshima were bad allowed for the greater good, you like or not.
Yeah, forcing tree huggers to make difficult decisions makes this conflict so much more interesting
Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice
Very well said. I'm in the mining industry and I often tell friends that there is no such thing as ethical cobalt, and that the massive battery boom is going to be powered by unethical mining in central Africa. People tend to not register or believe me. It's just too inconvenient to admit that almost everything about our 21st century lifestyle is made possible by child labour in the DRC, and too easy to ignore unfortunately.
Is it really better with oil? I mean, sure, there is oil produced in the U.S. or Norway, but a large portion of the world's supply comes from oppressive, non-democratic regimes with little regard to environmental impact.
@@lukasfiala1019 The global south needs to be able to nationalize its oil and lithium (i.e. Bolivia) to allow the profits from that mining to develop the country, rather then for the enrichment of a few corrupt, local politicians and western capitalists.
@@wellingtonaviationchannel634 yes, just like Venezuela did... now all the oil profits are going to develop the country, not to Maduro pockets
@@sllgrecco Before oil nationalization, Venezuelas oil was being funneled offshore to American oil companies. After nationalization the money was funded into Venezuelan social programs to feed the poor, until the US slapped 155+ sanctions on them starving their economy.
@@wellingtonaviationchannel634 Venezuela was the richest south american country before Chavez. By the way, Bolivia already nationalized his oil production years ago, no poor saw it's profits.
Very good segment, only thing missing here is the discussion of waste with the lack of recycling technology.
I love how the nearest Starbucks is a measure of sparseness.
I'd say being three hours from a Starbuck's is a feature, not a bug!
Great video as always, however you did made one mistake concerning solid state batteries, they will mostly likely not decrease the usage of the mentioned metals. This is due to a mixup between energy density and energy content. As of now the energy content (so capacity) defining part of a battery is the cathode. So for an imaginary battery pack with 100 kWh of standard lithium ion batteries one needs at least the same amount of cathode as for a 100 kWh battery pack of solid state batteries (even if there is a significant weight difference between the batteries, explaining the different energy density). The difference then is in the anode and the electrolyte, for state of the art batteries a mix of silicon and graphite is used as anode and a solution of usually lithium hexaflourophosphate in organic solvents is used as electrolyte, while in the case of for example Quantumscape Lithium metal is planned to be used as anode and a ceramic made up out of Lithium, Lanthanum, Zirconium and Oxygen will be used as electrolyte. So for most solid state batteries there will be more lithium required per kWh! Better solutions for alleviating the problem of metal demand however do exist, for example LFP cathodes, which require Lithium but no Nickelr or Cobalt (as used by Tesla in their standard range Model Y and 3) or Sodium-Ion batteries (not as much industrialized and applicability for EVs not proven, but in the product pipeline of CATL). But again otherwise great video, more people need to be educated on the ramifications of the required electrification of the mobility sector.
Hmm
Watching the section on solid state I kept wondering "what are solid state batteries made out of?"
With solid state battery, you will need a little less energy content for the same range, because you will be carrying less battery with you. So you can reduce Co and Ni (not Li though).
But I think LFP is the future.
@@jonhanson8925 Basically the same materials can be used for Anode and Cathode as for conventional batteries. So for cathode we have the typical NMC/NCA and LFP materials, but it is also possible to use other materials like Vanadium oxide, but a lot of additional R&D is required to commercialize those, which is unlikely considering the available materials. At the anode side we have the main reason for the higher energy density of solid state batteries, due to less chemical reactions at the anode-electrolyte interface Lithium metal can more easily be used, which boosts the energy density tremendously ( Graphite has a capacity of ~370 mAh/g while Lithium has 3860 mAh/g). The biggest promise however is to use only the copper current collector as the anode, on which the Lithium from the NMC deposits during charging, omitting the anode material completely would of course be a huge plus for the energy density (and eliminate material use and thus cost). But as you probably can imagine this is rather hard to accomplish outside the lab. Where the biggest difference is, is of course the electrolyte and separator. Here the solid electrolyte acts at the same time as a separator, so no need for that. As materials there are three main classes: ceramics (like the LLZO from Quantumscape), sulfidic (Don't know from top of my head which company uses those but they often consist of Lithium, sulfur, phosphor and some other materials) and lastly there are organic, polymer type electrolytes (do not have an example right now), those are already commercialized by blue solutions. However all have their problems, e.g. the blue solution batteries need to be heated to ~60°C to have sufficient conductivity for the Li ions.
@@kingofurukgilgamesh7828 Yeah you are completely right, one would require a smaller battery for the same range due to the reduced weight, but i have no idea how strong that impact would be
Ok with all due respect, Hello Fresh being more eco-friendly? Individually shipping individually wrapped and contained meals to homes... there may be less food waste but I'm more than skeptical about their overall impact being lower than traditional ways of obtaining groceries.
Thing is, produce at the store also uses a lot of packaging. Ever buy a lot of eggs, like multiple dozen? Fruits come into the store like that, in a cardboard box, individually separated by more cardboard, sometimes in foam sleeves. Workers take them out of there before putting them on display. I don’t know if that outweighs how much Hello Fresh does, I’m just saying there’s hidden costs that you might no be considering.
@@intan4722 what? I used to work in food logistics as a supervisor and have never seen that apart from ecologically produced fruit for the rich and pretentious.
Have you ever actually tried hello fresh? The amount of extra plastic is very small. The meals come in recycled paper bags with the whole thing in a recycled cardboard box. The vegetables have less packaging than you often get in the supermarket. Where you do get extra is in the small ingredients like you get a sachet of vinegar rather than using some out if a bottle. But overall the quantity of plastic is not much higher. The meals aren't shipped individually you get one delivery a week which is no different than most people would do driving to the supermarket anyway.
@@adrianthoroughgood1191 what the f* kinda vegetables you people buy that comes with packaging. Its vegetables.
@@Strafprozessordnung ? Do you buy all your vegetables from local farmers markets only and expect that's how it works everywhere on the planet? Because unfortunately it doesn't. People buy bags of potatoes, carrots and onions... Strawberries, blueberries, mushrooms etc all come in plastic boxes. Even when picking your own produce, you're given plastic bags to put them in to weigh. For someone working in "food logistics" you sound weirdly clueless about how much plastic is everywhere.
Excellent reporting, excellent presentation. I am going to cite this in my research essay on electric vehicles. Thanks folks!
Write about the genocide the global warming scam is causing instead. Write about the child slave labor used in mining minerals for the batteries too.
Did you get to address how are the batteries disposed of once they finish their life cycle? Because this video didn't cover that.
Folks, if you like peace of mind about your battery (longevity & safety), for years to come, just charge your EV between 30% - 70% (and do 90% - 100% when going for a long Road Trip).
(I own Tesla S & X, and I'm an Electrical Engineer)
* High temperatures kill batteries. If you go on a holiday/vacation during the summer, leave your vehicle at a low SOC (state of charge). For example, at or below 30% SOC
* Cycle within a narrow SOC range. For example: 40-60% rather than 10-80%. The cathode expands and contracts in a wider SOC range, which causes it to break apart.
* On that note: The lower the narrower the SOC range, the better. That means charging frequently.
* Avoid charging the vehicle above 75% SOC. Above 75% side reactions start occuring that cause degradation. This also reduces the volume expansion issues mentioned
* Taking all variables into account, operating between 45-70% SOC, and storage at ~30% is ideal.
* Occasional high SOC and wide SOC range are okay! For example, the occasional road trip.
* With good thermal management hardware and battery management software, supercharging should have minimal negative effects on cycle life
But even y'all will not follow those tips. The battery will not die tomorrow. it is just that there are some small (or big) consequences later on.
Have a great day
Thanks! I just wish these were software options in all consumer battery electronics. (But that wouldn't be very profitable)
@@ClearGalaxies
That's absolutely 100% correct!
Wendover Productions: "How much Bad should be allowed for the Greater Good ?"
This is by far the simplest way someone has described the issue the modern world is grappled by!
Great video, once again 🙌🏻
No it isn't, its tripe. Who's greater good? What type of bad? A lot of a little bad or a lot of a very bad? As always, it will generally be settled by who has more money. When that fails, it will be solved by who has a larger military or at least, who is more willing to send soldiers to die.
Unfortunately, this question is never answered by Society. It is answered by Money.
"nuance"
It’s literally scarcity economics. There are no solutions, only compromises.
@@cccycling5835 lithium, coal, oil, solar radiation, wind. None of these are scarce.
I bought an electric bicycle to see if it was feasible to commute to work with it. And not only was it feasible, it was very easy and saved me thousands of dollars and time over a year. I think the answer is that more people need to avoid using cars as much as they can.
I agree, and city planning can do a lot towards those goals, making it more comfortable even for the fewer drivers that can't choose to use a bike for example because of their payload .
Hell yeah we need more bike paths!
@@dextrodus Dutch cities are very good at this. A channel called Not Just Bikes has a lot of videos on the topic, and I really hope more cities throughout the world adopt this strategy.
It’s -20f with windchill where I am. Definitely not feasible.
Good for you, we’re not all rich like you that we can afford to not drive cars. Don’t let rich coastal elites make expensive decisions for you. Most of us can’t ride your tricycle to work as we live in cheaper areas away from city center
Curious, did you review how PCB's are made for the electronics and how many times those parts are shipped back and forth across the world before being final assembled and in the end use device??
I think to date Volvo is the only car manufacturer to have valid data to show the actual affects of producing an ev version model of an ide identical model of its combustion counterpart on the same production line. And I think the studies may come to a great shock as to how much we still have to go in EV cars to even consider them viable comparison in purely just the production of them being "greener" then the combustion versions.
It's quite obvious there is a ways to go.
Unfortunately the masses are brainwashed.
I wonder what will happen when the “brainwashed” start driving these things for awhile and wake up to the reality that they can’t compete with a real car. All the sudden the market is flooded with used Ev’s no one will buy…
WHO IN THE HECK IS GOING TO BUY A 5 TON TOYOTA?
I don't know what you said but I agree
"how much bad should be allowed for the greater good" damn that hit hard
I hate to tell you kid, that's the way the world works.
It's creepy
@@splitloopgaming3523 That's a bad take away. The point is there are always unintended or undesirable consequences for every choice, no matter how well intended.
Very Machiavellian
the age old doctrine of "the ends justify the means"
(no matter how murderous the regime is, it will be worth it for the greater good)
Cultural Marxism
Well done Sam and team
Also… BIGGEST problem with Lithium batteries 🔋 🤔 🧐
= Not recyclable! ♻️🔥🗑
@@bthemedia Not true.
@TransitNerd the issue with fuel cells is that they're only between 25-50% as efficient as just using a battery to store the energy
Nuclear Diamond Battery That Will Run For 28,000 Years. . A world without chargers .
ua-cam.com/video/FHfs3_7Q7FA/v-deo.html
hats off to your work
Very informative and interesting! Excellent work. I just subscribed
Another option to reduce our dependency on lithium is to use smaller vehicles that need smaller batteries. If there was better bike infrastructure, more people could bike to work and do errands. eBikes and eScooters use batteries that are 100 300 times smaller than EVs. Not everybody would like or is able to switch for various reasons, and that's fine. We just need to make micro mobility a viable alternative so people can have a real choice.
Why not just apply that logic to existing vehicles? Oil drilling doesn’t require this kind of environmental damage.
eBikes and eScooters have an even more carbon efficient version. Bikes and Scooters.
@@JayVal90 it would definitely help. The only issue is that gas-powered bikes and scooters can be very polluting due to more relaxed environmental rules for them, also they're really loud even vs gas cars. Manual bikes are good but not everyone can or is willing to sweat to go to work. eBikes and scooters seem to be the best of both worlds with no emissions and little to no sweat (unless you want to)
@@rustyslug2943 Bikes, yes, but not scooters. Escooters are, like electric cars, better than ICE ones. The expansion of production is difficult, but wouldn’t be required to such a scae with smaller batteries.
@@rustyslug2943 agreed. But not everybody wants or can use manual bikes/scooters for a multi-mile trip. If it's for transportation we want as many people as possible using them including grandmas, and people out of shape (like me). The good news is that they both use the same infrastructure so advancements for one help the other
Correction: the UK will ban the sale of NEW internal combustion vehicles. The second hand market will be unaffected and if prices do not decrease most people will simply buy a second hand petrol or diesel...
Get ready for new taxes on used ICE vehicles that will discourage ownership, or they’ll simply pass a mandate to ban all ICE vehicles…
@@deandrethompson5341 they dont need to, they will break at some point and gasoline will not be available everywhere anymore
And then how do they expect all those people to be able to afford a brand new electric car when the values of all of their gas and diesel vehicles fall through the floor that they would need to sell to be able to afford a new vehicle 🤔
Watch the price of those skyrocket though. Same with fuel. It's going to be rough on the citizens.
@@japopo5533 ever heard of second hand EVs ? I swear it's a thing.........
this was genuinely one of the best videos i've ever seen on youtube. reminded me why i studied engineering!
Such a great video. Thanks for creating
Wow! I'm currently doing an internship at a car manufacturer in Germany and working on environmental responsibility, and the topics we are currently working on the most are alternatives to EVs i.e e-fuels and re-fuels as well as Life Cycle Assessment.
Great video! This is definitely a thoroughly investigated and researched video and shows the great complexity of solving the fossil fuel dependent economy problem.
I love your videos! Greetings from Germany!
Very cool! As someone who loves motorsport, alternatives to batteries always interest me. Have you found any good ones yet? Formula One look to be switching to an e-fuel of some kind, but I'm not sure what exactly their biofuel is.
Environmental responsibility sounds like something a bunch of tree hugging hippies made up to make us feel guilty for not being rich enough to afford expensive electric cars
@@noahroth2992 thanks! There are many different types of alternative fuels, for example power-to-gas or liquid-to-gas using hydrogen (especially green hydrogen produced using renewables) or biofuels produced by using food by-products such as corn or, as I recently heard, using wheat scraps!
It is really interesting and definitely a topic that has to get more mainstream attention especially from politicians (EU looks determined to kill the ICE even though it could use alternative fuels and reduce its emissions). As a environmentalist myself, it is definitely something impressing as you don't normally hear much from the electrification problems...
@@TKUA11 it's actually pretty helpful as we are trying to change the business approach from within... The car manufacturer has to change in order to help mitigate the climate impact of its business model
Fuel cells are too expensive because of all the precious metals required. Also green hydrogen as a fuel is extremely inefficient compared to a battery. Cars will run on batteries.
I feel like you really should have touched on the fact that there are two major types of lithium mining. The type of lithium mining you started this video mentioning in Australia is a completely different process than the type of mining being proposed at Thacker pass. I am sure you are aware of the difference but I doubt most people know that lithium is mostly extracted via evaporation rather than traditional mining that you introduced this video with.
Care to explain the differences for most people?
@@RetroDawn nah he'll just say there is a difference and give no context or sources. "extracted via evaporation" oh yes now i completely understand
@@RetroDawn The images of the salt lakes and ponds produces lithium brine - a salt solution which is concentrated through evaporation and some refining to purify. The Australian lithium mine shown produces pegmatites, a type of ore (usually about 5-6%) that requires refining and processing into a usable concentrate. Brine type lithium requires a vast quantities of water and land for ponds where as lithium mining uses much more energy to extract and process but this is usually cheaper at scale. If we can use more sustainable energy sources for mining I suspect pegmatites will be cheaper and more sustainable in the long term.
Video was clear about the large amount of water required for evap recovery of Li, the most common method and the one required at Thatcher should it happen.
@@Nill757
But that is mostly toxic salt water and not quite comparable to drinking water.
And it isn't a required method as he has shown later in the video there are other methods of getting the salt put of the water.
I live down the road from Greenbushes. Have a few mates that work there. Great explanation!
We aint runnin out of gas man
What if we increased energy efficiency with steel wheels on steel rails, and ran long extension cords above the roads so vehicles didn't need as large batteries.
Woah... are you a GENIUS or something!?!
We could even combine multiple cars and attach them together
can you say... Milwaukee Railroad
You’re sounding an awful lot like Adam something and I love it
To late I’ve thought of it already and they said no
Honestly we need to, as societies, be looking at how many cars can we replace with public transport rather than with new cars. So many small towns are unwalkable if you're not at peak fitness or you're ill or disabled, even a bus going back and forth through town a few times a day would make a huge difference to so many lives. When bus services get added, they tend to get used
the problem is that even in a small town with a decent public transport.. most people still have decided that they need to own a car. for when they need to extend beyond that zone, or they want to go somewhere that public transport doesn't reach etc. and once you have the vehicle, the only incentive not to drive is environmentalism.. and to many that's just not worth the cost of convenience.
in the US anyways.
i'm a big car person. i love and prefer personal transport to public. i hate cities and pretty much hate people and being around them. nothing makes me angrier than having to sit near them or breathe their air or listen to their conversations etc. it will not sway me towards public transportation.
what would be effective to me however is a small light and efficient electric vehicle. something with a small carbon footprint and smaller capability. however i would still need to own a larger vehicle for everything else i need to do. and the economics of multiple vehicles is not compelling enough. so this would need to be something that did not cost a lot to insure, or register, or tax and so forth. it would need to make economic sense to me.
so it's either electric full size cars and trucks. or a second electric vehicle for the 80% of my life that i spend driving around town and dont need much cargo capacity or range.
plus i live in the deep south, where its unbearably hot and humid 90% of the year, and colder than we normally are prepared for the other 10%. cycling is a non starter. i cant take my kid to school, i cant get groceries in it. i could go to work on a bike but am unwilling to arrive at work sweaty and tired.
This is all good for dense cities. It would be unworkable for most place in the world. You can't sustain a bus service when you'd have just a few passengers per hour
yeah electric cars are as space ineficient as normal cars.
trains from trams to bullet trains along metro and light trains are the answer, they don't get stuck on traffic like buses or trams, they can carry a lot of people on a direct route(they can also diseabled and bicycle friendly), also they can be all electric without bateries.
trams for small towns, metro for big cities, bullet train across cities far away; buses are better than nothing(mainly for suburbs and the edges of the cities), i think on cities over 1 million people must have a least 3 metro lines; Tokyo(13 lines), London(11 lines) and CDMX(12 lines) are good example of good public transit whit some level of walkability and cycling.
@@neverknowsbest4994 I am sick and tired of people making the “what about the countryside” argument. What about them? Just because a country is not car dependent doesn’t mean that you can’t drive cars in the countryside. Just look at how a lot of European country does it, they also have countrysides and dense citys, people drive cars when traveling in the countryside and used public transportation when in the cities. And in fact it’s usually even better to drive in these countries because the roads are better maintained since there’s less of them. I don’t get why it’s so hard to understand.
@John E This! And a lot of the work and ways of living sorta dictate such. Public transportation isn't any good if "afterhours" is a thing....
And crap tier connections where the closest drop off is 2 miles from the destination, and even then what's a 15 minute trip by car is 1-2 hours by bus on a clear day.
The amount of overhaul needed to make public trasport even remotely enticing is mind boggling depending on locales.
You forgot one crucial point. WE DONT HAVE ENOUGH POWER TO CHARGE THEM ALL
This video was outstanding, I felt the need to write a comment to compliment you folks
While I support Electric Vehicles on the whole, it is nice to see someone pointing out the very real issues of the batteries. Personally I see a non carbon road vehicle solution as a mix of traditional electric vehicles for personal and light use, and hydrogen fuel cells for long range bulk haulage use as traditional battery operated vehicles do not scale up so well when it comes to Heavy Goods Vehicles and the like.
Both technologies of course have their problems, not the least of which is infrastructure buildup as well as issues with the technologies involved. We need to understand these issues however and make informed choices, not simply choose one or the other, or disregard both because of those issues. Both will be needed, and as was so succinctly said, we do have to accept a certain amount of bad for the greater good.
Or we could just keep driving our great ICE cars...
not just batteries its a problem with mining in general
maybe when we get astroid mining we'll pollute earth less
Synthetic LPG Autogas basically Alkanes is way better than Hydrogen. It easier to ship transport and much more safer. It's already the 3rd most used light vehicle fuel.
"we do have to accept a certain amount of bad for the greater good."
I understand the sentiment, but people need to be hyper-aware of the fact that this kind of logic has justified so much evil in the past. "The Greater Good" is subjective and changes according to the whims of the masses and their fears.
Public transportation, bicycles, walking...
All of these pollute _far_ less than even the cleanest electric car and could replace most uses of cars in cities.
I think this video shows the one thing missing from any discussion on EVs and environmentalism is that every choice you make has a cost no matter the benefit. Things have to be looked at a nuanced way and we shouldn't sugar coat any topic with platitudes.
If there was any interest in making cars green, they would have focused on converting existing cars to run on hydrogen fuel.
@@kavky hydrogen is made from fossil fuels (at scale) - why would you convert a fossil fuel car to use another fossil fuel? The tiny amount of Hydrogen made from clean electricity takes 3x as much electricity per mile than an EV does, and costs 10x as much at retail as just plugging in at home.
@@brushlessmotoring Burning hydrogen produces only water.
@@kavky manufacturing hydrogen emits CO2 - hydrogen doesn’t exist by itself in large quantities, it exists as part of other things, mainly water, but also hydrocarbons. In order to produce pure hydrogen for a fuel cell you need to separate it, the most common (by far) and economical method is steam reforming methane, which emits CO2. Combusting hydrogen in an engine with air will still produce NOx emissions as well as water, and not a lot of power - it will make your 5 liter engine feel like 1 - if the conversion is even possible - it’s also proven very unreliable due to embrittlement. The only clean way to produce hydrogen, without CO2 emission is using electricity and electrolysis of water - but this - combined with a fuel cell to turn the hydrogen back into electricity takes 3x more energy per mile than just charging an EV does - at retail, green hydrogen is 10x more expensive per mile than domestic electricity in an EV. Hydrogen doesn’t make sense for transportation. It’s too low in energy density, too difficult to handle and too expensive to manufacture. EVs win on every metric, including environmental emissions.
@WhatsApp Unfortunately this concept is complete BS and has been debunked several times within the last years.
Solid state production also has an added benefit. Data storage size increases exponentially alongside solid state batteries.
So glad I found this channel. Thank you.
Sounds so obvious but I'm glad this video focuses a little on the lithium being mined. Itrs crazy how many people don't realise that batteries, as good as they are, still require mining non-renewables.
its non-renewable thanks to the lack of recycling as battery can be recycled to recuperate 80% to 95%+ of its raw materials. Its insane why there is a huge reliance mining while very few are working to recycle.
Tell this the green-EU-lunatics. They completely out of touch with reality.
…and that those batteries don’t last forever and are “non-renewable.” Trade some air quality in densely populated areas for massive holes in the Earth robbing it’s precious metals, then poising it with dying batteries years later? Nothing Green about it.
Well, then they are just as uninformed as people saying that EVs are worse for the environment than ICEs.
It is extremely obvious that due to limitations imposed by basic science and reality, non-renewable minerals and metals will need to be mined, often in questionable conditions, and used for the green transition. Solar panels, wind turbines, batteries, everything uses these minerals in one way or another. It's unavoidable. Those materials will need to come from somewhere and often countries that have a lot of them are controlled by scumbags.
BUT, it is still better than doing nothing and staying our current course. We just need to tolerate it for now while looking for and perfecting better solutions at the same time, i.e. natrium ion batteries. The question now is just like what the video asks in the end: how much bad should be allowed for the greater good?
@@gerhardaryawardana72 From what I read from people that have EV' s is not enough range,not enough power and they lose their charge too quickly operating in mountains and deserts,basically most of the same problems that existed with EV' s in the early 20th Century, EV's, imo are just not ready for prime time yet,ok for around town,but that's about it,this is not the kind of car you would be able to take the family on vacation in to the Grand Canyon, then there is the problem of recharging,it takes too long,not like a gasoline powered car that in 5 min you are refueled and back on the road,an EV takes from 6 to 8 hrs to get a complete charge,may as well get a motel room and wait it out,and if you charge at home,watch your power bill go sky high,the money you save on gasoline, that and much more may be spent on electricity and I don't want my tax money spent on installing charging stations, tax money wasn't used to install gasoline pumps,the oil companies or the people who owned the gas station did that themselves,let the EV industry do that themselves,and if everyone went to EV' s where is all of the electricity we will need come from? Electricity doesn't appear by magic,if we can't use nuclear, coal,hydro, natural gas or fuel oil, how will electricity be generated,wind and solar are not reliable,remember Texas when all of that froze up in the winter,imo,I just don't think it is ready for prime time yet,this hasn't been completely thought through,maybe in 50yrs,it seems like the people who want this,while they may be grown people chronologically, they think like a immature 5 year old.I am already 70 yrs old,so unless I live another 50 yrs,I don't think I will see this in my life time.
This was an exceptionally well-done video. Bravo. This should be a wake-up call that electric cars, in their current form, cannot work.
Tapakapa has already stated that we should be focusing on better land-use to enable walking, cycling, and public transit. This is absolutely true and this needs to be solution #1. But there are still going to be use-cases for motor vehicles. They should be minimized as much as possible, but they will still be there. We also need to move towards smaller, lighter vehicles.
Cars and trucks have become *huge* in the past few decades, and it's clear that we need to reverse this trend. We need to focus on making driving fundamentally safer, so that electric vehicles can be smaller and lighter.
The electric car of the future should have more in common with a Birò than a Tesla. And there needs to be more investment in LEVs (light electric vehicles) for deliveries, like the MEGA E-Worker that is seen all over Amsterdam (especially by the grocery delivery Picnic). These should be the standard for new EVs in the future.
this will help but there are still other problems to overcome
@@netrox1345 well the scale & complexity of the issues is so far-reaching someone could write a whole series of essays & you could 'still' say that at the end.
@@InnuendoXP if thats the case i can say anything:)
I wonder if a car sales tax based on weight would be effective at incentivizing smaller cars without restricting "freedom."
You can’t just wait until there is something better. And delaying the transition by another decade or two I hope solid state delivers.
Also new lithium clay extraction techniques being tested out and that cobalt is practically phased out for EV batteries.
Or that Nickel mines such as those in the Philippines are being transformed into more sustainable and ethical mining mostly due to tesla.
How much bad for the greater good? How much bad and devastation are we causing by oil and fossil fuels ?
That 75% number is scary 😬 even if that number goes down, that's still a lot of carbon from a vehicle that doesn't even burn it itself.
I wonder how EVs compare to Hygrogen, and bio fuel based vehicles in lifetime carbon emissions.
The one thing ive found out is that there is no "perfect" solution when it comes to consumerism, everything has a manufacturing, usage, maintenence, and disposal cost.
There is no free lunch and never will be .
As a chemical engineer researching electrochemical energy systems and storage, I'd say this is quite accurate. However, there are certainly more challenges relating to solid state batteries than just cost. Namely, charging takes a lot longer and they are more prone to degradation and have poor cycle stability in relation to Li-ion batteries. Also- from my understanding they are more affected by temperature, making them nearly unusable in cold weather. Not mentioning this stuff makes us scientists and engineers look like a bunch of bumbling idiots LOL
The cost of the metals used in electrochemical systems across the board are increasing, that's undeniable. I'm not sure what the solution is. However, I expect Zn-air to be where battery power ultimately ends up. There are a lot of challenges for us to figure out with Zn-air, but they have the potential to perform amazingly.
Additionally, the inclusion of supercapacitors to solid state battery powered vehicles may assist in some of the slow charging problems. I know relatively little about them but from my understanding they use a lot of metals that are useful for electrochemical applications, so we'll have to see how economic it is.
Its a shame that FCVs don't really compare to EVs, but it is what it is. The infrastructure is too difficult to establish, and hydrogen production as of now isn't where it needs to be. Nevertheless, I think the most effective strategy to avoid running out of resources is to diversify the technology, but what will the logistical cost be?
That was sort of my thoughts when the FCV’s really started up. My thought was “great we finally decided to stop being stupid”. Then BEV’s picked up instead and I knew we were still incredibly stupid.
its probably these issues that are the problems of why we arent moving to solid state batteries, economy of scale thing i don't beleive is a actual issue here. If a company like tesla believed they work and you can give them a price once they order x ammount of batteries per year, they can just move to it themselves and create that so called economy of scale. Problem has to be other things that need to be solved first.
supercapacitor power density is abysmal, and they have extremely high self discharge. they are extremely inefficient in almost every possible way.
@@TMS5100 supercapacitors would most likely be used for frequently storing small amounts of energy, for example you might store energy generated by regenerative braking in the supercaps and then discharge them for use by the motor, so they should be emptied by the time you want to use them again
I think really we need to invest into nuclear for constant electrical energy generation then use hydrogen as a form of "battery storage" for intermittent energy users (eg vehicles). The electricity gained from nuclear would go into our homes and businesses. Then we use the electricity to split H1's from H2O and use the hydrogen as a semi-permanent storage for vehicles, which periodically turn on an off and aren't running all the time.
The issue I see is that the people with the money simply don't want to invest. It's going to have to come down to a "parallel economy" type situation or we're going to have to cater to them with prospect of earning even more money they they already have from existing procurement and storage methods. This mentality explains why Texas is more eco-friendly than California, which should be nonsense jibber jabber.
As many have said in the comments, for most people cars are an extremely inefficient means of transport - regardless of their energy source.
A move towards public transport and smaller electronic power personal transport (ebikes etc.) seems to be an actual green step forwards.
Even the current system of traffic lights could be optimized - think about how much energy is wasted among all the cars when 3 lanes of traffic need to come to stop to allow one car to make a turn.
Too many people view the world through the lense of a city. Public transportation is horrifically ineffective on an individual level when you dont live in a city and when theres no biking infrastructure like Amsterdam you can't really bike.
ua-cam.com/video/0PIND0YO3KU/v-deo.html
@@mayonnaiseluther1568 Most people live in cities. There will always be people out in the country but people in cities shouldn't have to drive.
And yes a lot of cities don't have good infrastructure like Amsterdam. That's the point. We need to build it.
Goodluck in the next pandemic LOLOLOL
@@mayonnaiseluther1568 the Los Angeles metro, a horribly low density area, had a robust public transportation system before the invention of the car
Wow - phenomenal video! Thank you!!!
Well done, a thorough and intelligent insight into a truly 21st-century problem. I enjoyed every microsecond of your clearly enunciated, powerfully worded, logical assessment of one of the most important issues of our time. Thank you. I was transfixed.
Yo hard g
I'd have to disagree. First of all the video focuses on EVs. Yet, more of these materials are needed for mobile devices and tools, than for EVs. Second, It frames the problem as new, current and pressing disregarding the fact that these problems have been criticized for 20 years. Unfortunately back then there was no one interested in the criticism since no one could use it for his anti EV argument. Furthermore, he's fantasizing about solid state, a tech promised to be "around the corner" in 2016, while post lithium tech and LFP batteries are already available or currently launching, but most importantly, this has been a delaying effort for years: "look, solid state is around the corner, better buy a combustion engine now and wait for solid state tech". Creating hopes for solid state is a fatal signal.. Then it completely disregards the fact, that there's almost a decade left to ramp up production and everybody in the industry is heavily investing in it. It just gives one especially bad example of trying to access new lithium sources, while there are many others. Lastly, the video makes it seem, like this is an EV problem but it's a systematic problem. Many materials hav similar if not worse mining conditions if not worse. Again, since nobody can use it as an argument against EVs nobody knows about this.
The biggest problem of the century is not lithium. The biggest problem is the climate crisis and the misleading information and ignorance that prevents the world from acting on it, like it would be necessary.
Disclaimer: i'm not saying these problems should be disregarded, only that nobody should think 'oh well, better stick to my diesel truck' because even though mining is bad, mining and burning oil is worse and with proper pressure, these problems can be solved.
Thank you for your erudite and well argued response, it has been most enlightening.
@@kooooons
TOTAL BS. WHERE IS THIS BOOB GETTING HIS FACTS. FIRST, CO2 IS REQUIRED FOR LIFE ON THIS PLANET. AND CO2 MAKES TREES AND CROPS GROW BETTER.
Thanks Mom.😀
Finally! Been waiting long for someone to talk about this
Check out Undecided with Matt Ferrell, he does stuff like this all the time
I wonder which company will rise from the production.
We are also apparently going through a battery revolution so maybe a solution can be found.
From my understanding the biggest mineral shortage for EV batteries will be nickel. Lithium is an extremely abundant resource and can be found almost everywhere. Only small amounts of cobalt are used in most EV batteries and some new EV batteries are cobalt free. Nickel though is much less abundant and makes up a pretty large proportion of long range EV batteries. Lower range EV's can use iron phosphate.
If memory serves, many asteroids are plentiful in nickel for some reason, so that may be a good source if we can get to the point that we can get to it.
Or even Sodium-ion batteries.
the majority of the world's cobalt is used in refining diesel fuel. So switching to ev's will actually reduce demand for cobalt
Yeah i think tesla is actually using lithium iron phosphate for shorter range model 3s
Yes, and Tesla’s new 4680 batteries contain no cobalt. The volume and scale of these new batteries will truly be staggering.
Going "green" is only green for the pockets of the politicians
The damage to the admosphere is 75% less but the damage to the soil is what is has to be account.
In The Netherlands the goal is not necessarily to replace Electric cars from ICE, but also to drastically reduce the number of cars completely. This will skew the actual amount of lithium needed and the amount of cars to replace. This is the real target and it is 100% realistic to see half the amount of cars on the road within a decade due to a great plan to build out a massive public transport system and to invest in that with a long term plan.
Maybe it'll work when your population density is 100x ours lol
Good luck with that in Central Europe. I was travelling by bus in Hungary last summer and the journey took 3 times as much as by car. Also I just saw in the news that in Slovakia where I live they had to cancel multiple trains and busses because of the lack of drivers.
No wonder why much of the hate against EV's I see comes from the US where we *still* have few plans to offer much in the way of public transit, even within cities
The electric buses and electric bicycles will also increase lithium demand
@@cpufreak101 Americans arent anti EV. Charging is the problem. F-150 sells like hotcakes, so price isnt an issue for all. when your car takes 150kw, but its charging at half due to temps or charger issue??? I see PHEVs succeed in U.S. no need to build chargers and modify your electrical system at home as most PHEVs draw 16amps. Upgrading to 200 amps can cost up to 20K if lines are underground.
At 14:35 you mention that electric vehicles are responsible for 75% less emmisions compared to ICE vehicles even when factoring in production, usage, and scrapping. Would you be able to cite sources for that as I would love to read further on it!
Yes climate change is real but governments mandating the potential ban of ICE is not the way to go for solving this crisis. There has to be another way.
Good point. 75% sounds like a stretch
@@Mrcharles. I loved cars since before I can even remember and now I research transport policy. Unfortunately there is no other way as of now. Just way too many people on earth to be using such inefficient machines to get around.
@@lastminutesolutions perhaps if the government had invested in other modes of transportation like high speed rail 50 years ago we wouldn’t have this problem.
all of the sources are in the description hope this helps
"one option, rather than finding more raw materials, is to need less of them, of course the way to do that is by making batteries better" thats a way to do it, however many would argue the better way is to reduce consumption. not everyone needs a car. we need better transit, less sprawl, and less car dependancy.
Your videos are great, and I get that you didnt mean it was the only way, but how thats stated makes it sounds like our consumption is at a healthy level, which it currently just is not.
The matter: electric transportation is a subject I find really interesting. It all started with;
if everybody have an electric car, What does it mean to recharge?
Questions linked to this;
- Duration when a car is fully charge?
- Distance to travel with a fully charged car.
- International transport.
- Mail (international)
- Replacement of batteries in ev's.
- Gas stations
- recharge stations?
- From where comes the electricity to recharge stations?
Personally I think that especially the European union, severely underestimate their goal;
In the year 2035, only ev's are allowed.
If the questions above aren't thoroughly studied, I foresee enormous problems.
Resulting in a crisis unheard of. In this case, forcefully created by a union of nations.
We should take a step back and ask: why does everybody need an electric car?
Is there a from of transportation that can reduce our need for cars; like the EU's already mature transit system?
@@bellairefondren7389
From time to time, this is mentioned and often returns. An issue is that companies, jobs and schools don't begin and end at the same time. Then there is the number of people that works, go to a school. One company consists of ten employee, while other companies have hundred if not more.
With schools, it's the same.
Another option is that companies and schools bring and take their students and employees. I think that the problem stays.
Transport in general will stay an issue.
Including what would be used; Electricity, gasoline, gas, water, etc.
No matter what product, it will always have a negative impact on nature.
Personally, with electricity, it's even more devastating; the amount of water that is needed and the pollution of that water after being used. That water cannot be used anymore. I couldn't take out this docu if that water could be filtered. But lately, water is starting to get scarce. Imagine what will happen after 5 years. When electricity is obligated. The destruction of nature will be far worse. Now everything is more expensive, it will be more expensive when that day comes. More corruption, the gap between rich and poor won't be a gap. 2 worlds. Jealousy will be the norm.
Still, I do think that it's wise to think about alternatives, but it is a very bad thing to see an alternative as the ultimate solution.
History already have showed and proven it several times.
Maybe the "End Goal" is really fewer cars, less food production, and fewer 'useless eaters'.
@@leftrevolution7 So no where did I say transit is the "ultimate" solution. Not entirely sure what that would entail. I also don't think the complaint you brought up about start and end times being different is that big of a hurdle. You can run frequent transit throughout the day.
If we want to reduce our overall energy footprint, creating walkable communities and expanding transit will need to be a major focus to of our infrastructure planning.
not really. your logic only works if cars were the only form of transportation known to exist. they arent. there is something called a train. there's also something called a bus. a bike. and legs, for walking
I love this realization: If we have very cheap energy, everything becomes cheap.
With cheap energy you can pump lots of seawater and filter it if needed, you can extract elements from their ores through electrolysis or many energy intensive processes, you have heat, light, cold, power for movement, power for hydroponic crops, which lets you create high quality food without the land, you can create fuels with CO2 and water... Everything becomes cheap and abundant.
This is why I think fusion power is our road to post scarcity.
the video overall is good but i'ts missing a few points:
1) cobalt is being phased out of evs, basically everywhere
2) who is the largest consumer of cobalt? the oil industry to refine oil to be used in ice vehicles
3) missing the elphant in the room that is the new Tesla dry extraction method of mining and refining lithium
4) battery recycling will be a thing, there are already tens of companies with big funding behind them ( redwood material for example)
this are just the first that comes to my mind
The manufacturers, including Tesla, of course, haven't designed their batteries for recyclability and replaceability--they want you to buy a new one. And no one's commercialized the post-consumer recycling process, yet. It's very difficult and expensive. If there's to be any semblance of "green" to this technology, then they need to prioritize recycling. This is *far* more important than most other forms of recycling, where there isn't a market for the materials, and most is just thrown away, instead--especially since China started refusing our recyclables for recycling.
Ironcially, Tesla's ex-CTO and cofounder is the founder of Redwood, the only company recycling EV batteries--but that's 100% pre-consumer (manufacturing defects), and they are using a hybrid pyro/hydro solution that burns away much of the lithium and other materials.
However, we need to use these batteries for as long as possible before recycling. I doubt there are any businesses that are purchasing used EV batteries for reuse currently, though. They could be useful for non-mobile usages, such as the grid. But, they'll never do that--at least not in the US.
Yes and also Australia alone has about 100 years worth of lithium supply at current rate, also in a method that is comparatively environmentally friendly to mine. It just costs more.
@@samuel999 source?
"How much bad should be allowed for the greater good" => The ends justify the means => the justification for every evil in history.
9:43 "but to decarbonize driving, solutions must be found". they have been found, and they have existed for hundreds of years. it's called public transit, biking, and walking
I was expecting the video to mention Lithium Ion battery recycling enterprises, such as Li-Cycle and Redwood. Battery recyclers will play a crucial role in alleviating the battery supply chain.
The manufacturers haven't designed the batteries for recyclability, and no one's commercialized the recycling process, yet. It's very difficult and expensive. If there's to be any semblance of "green" to this technology, then they need to prioritize recycling. This is *far* more important than most other forms of recycling, where there isn't a market for the materials, and most is just thrown away, instead--especially since China started refusing our recyclables for recycling.
@@RetroDawn it's coming. Most lithium used to be in laptop and cellphone batteries. It's only now that's it's in car batteries. Huge packs are easier to recycle.
Cars as a waste product are very recycled. The plastics. The steel. The copper. Just about all the bits get used.
Currently it's tens of thousands of batteries hitting the wreck lots per year. Not enough to sustain an industry. Give it 5 years-7 years. Tesla made 1 million this year. In 7 years that's a lot of batteries to recycle n
Today we are recycling the batteries from their first few years. They were only making tens of thousands of cars then.
@@pierredelecto7069 We're not recycling any post-consumer EV batteries yet. Unfortunately, none of the EV manufacturers, including Tesla, are designing their batteries to be replaced, let alone recycled. They want people to just buy a new one. Ironcially, Tesla's ex-CTO and cofounder is the co-founder of Redwood, the only company recycling EV batteries--but that's 100% pre-consumer (manufacturing defects), and they are using a hybrid pyro/hydro solution that burns away much of the lithium and other materials.
However, we need to use these batteries for as long as possible before recycling. I doubt there are any businesses that are purchasing used EV batteries for reuse currently, though. They could be useful for non-mobile usages, such as the grid. But, they'll never do that--at least not in the US.
@@RetroDawn I don't think there's many EV batteries even available yet. Even as scrap commodity the demand is high. People will search out crashed Teslas to re use the battery. Not recycle it.
I was thinking that as millions of battery operated cars are retired each year, which will happen eventually, that at that point there will be enough supply to encourage an industry.
First step to having a lithium recycling industry is having a huge source of lithium that needs recycling. I'm no engineer. Just a car guy.
@@RetroDawn Tesla actually has a recycling program of their own (as do every self respecting battery manufacturer ) but it’s quite small since not very many evs are of the road yet. But a good few thousand tons are recycled per year. It’s in their impact report.
I adore that conclusion. One of your best videos because of it.
Running the theme of the video throughout and then relating it to new and current issues hit the point extra home. Goosebumps.
Scientific predictions about weather have historically been as wrong as religious predictions about the end times. The science is wrong. Co2 levels used to be higher than now in dinosaur times and life flourished because Co2 is plant food. Banning gas cars is tyranny.
@@eromod You seem to ignore a lot. The carbon dioxide levels were higher before, true.
The issue is everything else, the context. Going from our levels of green house gas to way higher levels heats the planet. This makes climates change. A change in climates gives a change in circumstances for everything living.
Real life example of context: if a dry area, say a place in the southwest of Asia, would get less rain as an effect of warmer air being able to absorb more water vapour (fewer clouds are formed).
Less rain would make it hard for the plants to survive. This leads to what is called a drought. A decrease in available water which noticeably affects the life of the area.
Droughts happen from time to time, but with a higher temperature it will happen way more.
If fewer plants survive that means less food for whatever eats the plants, e.g. humans.
Humans live in societies. They often want to stay in their society rather than move to another society. People have a sense of belonging to their home, both the location and its culture. In order for the society to be stable it tries to plan for bad things happening to its people. With a prolonged drought the government needs to find food for its people in other ways. If the people starves the government has to act quickly or a revolution is likely to happen. Hungry people are not planning for the long haul, it's do or die. A semi spontaneous revolution is bound to happen.
A lot of different groups tries to take charge, since the straw that broke the camel's back wasn't a political one. The revolution was not politically driven.
Civil war ensues. Syria is in shambles. Massive emigration, international aide that's military, monetary and humanitary.
The change from one amount of green house gase to another lead to the war in Syria. Context matters.
It isn't the absolute amount, it is the relative change.
We've had ice ages, we've had warm periods. They came and went slowly. Now we have a rapid change. The context can't keep up with the change. Evolution of species take time so animals and plants have no chance to adapt. Humans have a chance, but capitalism and nationalism is impeding.
Sea levels have risen and some people can't "go back to where they came from" because their home is playing with Atlantis, hiding under the ocean.
@@JaharNarishma Sea levels have risen? Just look up old picture of the statue of liberty compared to new pictures of the statue of liberty., The water level is the same!
Plus, NASA said that in 2014, the north pole had the most ice ever recorded!
All these climate "scientists" cant get their facts straight. First they said it was getting too hot, then they said it was getting too cold. Now they just call it "climate change" to say that the extreme temperature differences change.
But if you look throughout history when life thrived, the temperature fluctuations are perfectly normal!
CO2 is plant food and gas is a much better energy storage solution than current battery technology.
@@JaharNarishma Even if the sea levels did rise, its still moral to keep using oil because its such a superior energy storage solution.
Yall could just move to Antartica because it would warm up enough to even farm and import from Canada for extra help.
@@eromodunfortunately, it's not as simple as 'move to somewhere that's cold right now but will be warmer as climate changes.' there is what's commonly called 'tipping points' in climatology, where once you pass certain threshold, the climate system either settles into a new state or into runaway instability due to positive feedback loop.
1. Conversion of ice sheets into water increases the albedo (roughly speaking, how much light/heat a surface absorbs; e.g. white surfaces absorb less light, dark surfaces absorb more light), which further drives temperature increase due to increased heat absorption.
2. Currently, the ocean is absorbing a lot of CO2 from the air, as evidenced by ecological consequences of ocean acidification reported around the world. However, gas solubility in liquid solvent decreases when temperature increases, meaning at some point, the ocean will start to release a huge amount of dissolved CO2 and currently stable methane deposits on the sea floor, exacerbating the greenhouse effect.
3. As average global temperature increases, rate of ocean evaporation also increases, and vapor is in itself a greenhouse gas, and so it will accelerate the temperature increase.
While individual tipping point events may not in themselves be catastrophic (e.g. the loss of the entire antarctic ice sheet will add ~0.6C to global temperature), these tipping point events can form a cascading chain, and we don't know for sure when the cascade would end. For example we could end up like venus, where the greenhouse effect is so strong that the average surface temperature is over 400C/800F, which would make human survival impossible.
MAN!! Can't figure out what side you are on....which is why I immediately subscribed. Damn!! Keep it up!
Facts, he's really not on either, he just tells a really good story with great research.
Thank you for saying NEVADA correctly
Seeing a Wendover video relating to solid-state batteries (the area of research I did my masters in) is surreal
I’m hoping to get further qualifications at some point and work as a researcher for an institution focusing on solid-state battery research, so it’s awesome seeing the topic discussed
It was such a well made video
@@DyslexicMitochondria hey bro i watch your videos. Big fan of your channel
@@DyslexicMitochondria some comments pointed out there need to have more clarification on solid state part. Other than that , pretty informative video.
sounds like Wendover was a bit misinformed / not fully aware of the solid state battery topic and tradeoffs though 🤷♂️
the problem with lithium ion batteries is that they're too big to swallow whole
Just get a bigger hole
@@potatojake197 you would know
depends if its cylindrical or prismatic
@@6z0 as a matter of fact you're right
I've seen women swallowing bigger "things", some of them with batteries inside.
The thing is we need to advance the development of a battery to be more efficient and effective at the same time
Did you no watch the video . Solid state batteries
Wow…..I just found your channel. Excellent, nuanced, and balanced. Very rare
Dear Mr. Wen Dover, your humanity, while explaining the moral tradeoffs, without a shadow of doubt, opened a great many people's third eye. I just wanted to thank you for that. Helluva job you're doing. You sir are a good egg.
Yes. Rhymes with Bend Over but without any negativity.
The last 30 seconds of narration was beautifully written. Well done
AND COMPLETELY FULL OF UNMITIGATED LIES.
"is it worth to allow individuals to own guns" - that part? That mentality is absurdly inverted. Let me ask you: is it worth to allow you to own any capital? capital can be used for nefarious purposes. Let's keep you poor, it's safer. Let's keep you unarmed, it's safer.
@@piousboxI didn’t see anything about guns.
A better alternative? Public transit, less cars.
Let’s stop using smartphones… they all use lithium batteries 😂😂
Hey all, Financial Analyst for the energy production industry here - this is a cool video, its true that more lithium = more water use. For future prospects check out Fe Ion batteries though. It's about 8x more profitable than lithium (which is insane!) So that's probably where the industry will go.
Edit: profitability of Iron ion batteries is a large driver for change, but speed of production, social pressures, and energy density all err in favor of Iron as well
Big if true
LiFePo4 (LFP) technology has it's place but it is larger and heavier for the same amount of energy delivered so it will only ever work in a class where those properties fit the engineering solution.
I was hoping for a mention of LFP (lithium iron phosphate) batteries. These contain zero cobalt, and so eliminate the most problematic mineral. The standard edition of Tesla’s Model 3 use this type of battery.
But that would ruin the EV hit-piece narrative - funny how everyone is _suddenly_ wringing their hands over batteries now they are in vehicles - they never had a problem with phones and laptops, and no mention of cobalt usage in gasoline refining, or lithium in medicine.
This is an Oil and Gas funded narrative to delay EV takeup and make sure we continue to burn fossil fuels and pollution the atmosphere, this video, and it's plastic wrapping sponsor, are not interesting in climate change.
Phosphate is the single biggest limit to life on earth. Shifting from cobalt to phosphate would put even more strain on global food production. It's also not green to mine and most deposits contain a decent amount of radioactive products. There are huge superfund sites all over Florida from phosphate mine tailings.
They have a lower energy density, but are superior in just about every other way.
@@brushlessmotoring Cars use a LOT more lithium than any phone or laptop. Like, a LOT more. Multiply that by the sheer number of cars in the US, let alone the world and you have an exponential increase in lithium demand over phones, laptops etc. The science is there. We will be creating a new problem while we solve our current one. This is why I can't stand the "EV's are awesome" narrative. EV's are nice, they have upsides and help solve a current problem but god damn, people are blind to the new problems we are going to create/make much worse.
Probably because the problem of lithium still exists.
It’s a step in the right direction but making it sound like it’s the ultimate solution is still not good. Lithium mining especially in less developed locations is notoriously poor for the environment. And expanding the mines will simply make the problem worse.
Sam was showing the problem with lithium ion batteries and lithium production.
Solid state batteries were brought up because with time they are a viable solution. LFPs aren’t.
Thanks for making me guilty of owning batteries.
Shifting to electric cars will be the final nail in the coffin for the middle class.
Don't you think the actual solution is turning away from a car dependent transportation system instead of relying on slightly better bateries? I expected you would touch on that subject, but it seemed to me it wasn't even considered.
But... That's not what the video was about, so why would he?
@@brettvv7475 The video is about the problems with Lithium-ion batteries and solutions to them. One of the most effective solutions is to reduce overall dependency on (electric) cars, so that definitely fits in the discussion.
What i understand you to be saying is something akin to "switch to public transportation instead"
And if that is the gist of what you mean, then i can say that'd most likely never work. From personal experince i'd fight tooth and nail to keep my ability to go where i want, whenever i want.
And contiuning that line, even if one were to then make the arguement of taxi like cabs that'd come and get you. Well then that is so close to owning a car anyway so why bother?
If i misundestod what you meant then please expand upon your idea :D
Sounds great if you live in a city.
No one is going to create public transit to a ranch house 50 miles from city center.
That is typical for the average car-brain American. It's not their fault for growing up in car centric America, but a good look into large European and Asian cities would certainly change their perception that cars are just a terrible concept in terms of space and resources efficiency, but time as well.
Im all for more electric vehicles, but outright banning internal combustion ones when we arent even close to ready for that is impressively stupid
username checks out
They were not banned, people are still allowed to drive around with them. It was banned to sell any new combustion car made after 2030. Until the last combustion cars leave those countries it is going to take up until 2050, because people there on average drive their car for 18 years.
@@fatalityin1 still seems dumb since it kinda seems like its reducing the potential of improvements in internal combustion engine tech. Seems best to set high MPG standards. That might have the positive effect of making cars smaller/weigh less. Idk.. I'm no expert.
@@adventurefaps9571 it's not dumb cause by directly banning ICE you're forcing manufacturers to divert their R&D money towards developing better batteries and EVs, which are unquestionably better for the environment than ICE ever will be. It's either allow them to keep producing ICE and get at best 20% cleaner vehicles or force them to produce 70% and upwards cleaner vehicles.
@@fedyx1544 Except the electricity they need is still produced by polluting the environment
I've been hearing about solid state batteries for over a decade now.
I'm still waiting.
0:30 it's the blend of high capacity and high capacity. Lithium batteries are among the least safe, least reliable and and least affordable energy storage cells. The fact that each lithium battery needs its own separate circuit built into each individual cell just to make sure that it doesn't explode during day-to-day operation should tell a story.
As per usual, I am so thankful for the inclusion of indigenous and native land rights and domestic violence concerns in your videos. That holistic view of the entire cost/benefit analysis really sets your channel apart from other logistics channels.
Really sad to see people who contributed the least having to pay the most for climate change
Your figure of 31.5 million cars is wrong I think. They are proposing to ban NEW car sales by 2030, not replace all the cars in one go. There was 2.3 million new cars registered in the UK in 2019 for example.
Yes I noticed that too
ICE vehicles still have a long way to go
Don't forget he has the whole program for correcting errors to get a trip to Australia.
@@chrisraines1564 lol I think that’s Economics Explained not Wendover
that's only one of many factual inaccuracies that make this entire analysis comically off base. when you start from a set of "facts" that aren't true its hard to make up for that.
@@johnkeefer8760 you know I thought this was economics explained 😂
The most important thing not mentioned in this video is how the power grind can't sustain these vehicles. Nevermind that throughout their life cycle these machines are actually more polluting than traditional vehicles.
thanks for listing sources
This was truly a wonderful thought-provoking video and I so appreciate you broaching the subject. Keep up the great work.
Excellent video Sam! This really is eye opening to what needs and what can be done to clean up Lithium battery production
Ev manufacturers and dealers are saying ev batteries are safe, kind of reminds me of tobacco producers saying the same thing about their products,.... we all know how that turned out !!
tobacco, ev batteries, fat free foods, Aspartame, Sucralose...
The easiest solution is to not drive at all. Public transportation uses energy more efficiently than cars since they move dozens of people at once. That means less polution, and it doesn't even require cutting edge technology. The only challenge is expanding the metro and bus network so that people don't need to drive to work anymore.
Without a shift towards public transport, and an order of magnitude or more reduction in private vehicle usage, it's not going to be anywhere near good enough to avert catastrophe. And that's assuming that it is in conjuction with massive decarbonization in non-transport sectors at the same time. Trams, trains, and trolley buses bypass the battery problem entirely.
Exactly. The automotive industry's lobbyists GUTTED public transport in America.
No, thanks. I'll keep my big yard, big house and big car. I live in a very car dependent city and I LOVE it.
@@Hjernespreng there is some nuance to it, the US is huge and impractical for public in many areas due to low population density. However I do agree with you in many areas (such as where I grew up, in the suburbs of Indiana)
@@davidturner4076 agreed.
Or... There's an alternative-- don't ban fossil fuels. We can also invest in synthetic fuels or hydrogen.
When looking at the modal share around the world (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modal_share), it becomes clear that the almost absolute car dependency of citizens in the US is also *unique* to the US.
Therefore, what is really needed, is to fix zoning issues (=allow mixed development), and to build cycling and public transit infrastructure.
Jesus Christ in almost all North American cities 90% move around in cars. That's insane
Bi coastal population, spread over a continent with vast plains in the middle. *That* is what’s unique about the US (and Canada), and the transportation and residence situation flows from all that.
@@Nill757 that makes sense for the mid west and rockys. But on the east coast, south and around the Great lakes you have about 2/3 of the population and with a fairly good pop density. Sure, Las Vegas and Salt Lake city probably rely more on highways to function, but there is no excuse when cities like Miami, Atlanta and Charleston work solely on personal cars
@@nazarenoperezpelicon947 Huh? Atlanta has 48 miles of subway train w 30+ stations, and a huge bus service. How is that only cars?
Miami is on the ocean, water table in your face. What exactly do you expect them to do, knock down all the buildings to run surface trains?
@@Nill757 No. Most cities were buldozed to make space for cars in the 50s and 60s. It didn't use to be this way and the US used to have a world-class public transit system before WWII for example
I think the biggest problem is gasoline is 100 times more energy dense than lithium ion batteries so they aren’t very practical. Other problems are charge time and the amount of time to get a positive ROI considering comparable cars cost twenty to thirty thousand less. The self driving modes can’t be fully trusted so they aren’t much better than cars with adaptive cruise control. We are being sold a lie just like with wind and solar. All of these technologies will hopefully improve significantly but they are all a little half baked. Most people on long trips will only charge to 80% to minimize downtime so that means the real effective range is 80% at best of what it is rated for. The sad part is most of the people with these cars will upgrade early which defeats the green purpose.
I would say EVs are definitely market ready for medium range driving (though it would be nicer if a robust and fast public transit could fill this role). The return on investment for EVs should also take into account that it requires a lot less maintenance because it doesn't have an engine. There are far fewer moving parts, and a much simpler layout, which means it requires less frequence maintenance, and also much less technically challenging maintenance work (one would hope this would translate to cheaper labor cost per visit). EVs don't even have an equivalent of oil change.
As for the comparison with gasoline, it's not really the energy density that's problematic, but it's the rate at which you can refill the energy. The current range on most mass market EVs would be considered reasonable (or at least acceptable) if fully charging an EV takes about as long as refilling gas, and I agree that on that aspect it falls short of a combustion engine vehicle. That being said, most people don't do routine long haul drives very frequently, even in the continental US, and most of the use case is short to medium drives for daily business, and EVs are perfectly capable of filling that use case for almost everyone.
I'm currently writing a paper and doing a source evaluation. You all go above and beyond to produce your content keep up the good work.
As an electrician in the Uk. This is very informative 👍 the struggle is massive. Not just batteries but the demand on the supply network.
now imagine that demand in 2030 when everyone gets home from work and wants to charge there cars! lol
Why were LFP batteries not mentioned. They are frequently used in buses and standard range model 3s. Although sightly less energy dense, they contain no nickel or cobalt. They also last longer, are safer and are here now.
because this was an anti EV hit piece? No mention of any context around other methods of transportation propulsion, just lots of scary 'look! bad things!' around batteries used in EVs (but not batteries used in other devices for the last 20 years - which, even now, are the far greater users of Lithium, Cobalt and Nickel)
@@brushlessmotoring Not a hit piece. He says the quantities needed are about to go vertical and explains the trade offs. It was balanced.
@@KayAteChef not without talking about the impacts of our current solution - Oil - without context about why we need to make the change, it's just a vague anti-change piece. Nothing is perfect, and we need to act now - the transition to EVs is already going to take too long, trying to wait another decade with vague promises about solid state batteries is harmful.
@@brushlessmotoring The impression that I got was that we had to shift volume now to achieve economy of scale. No delays.
@@KayAteChef I have not seen solid state at scale - if it were possible, there would be crazy thin phones and smart watches with it in already - maybe premium price points - but for certain applications, there is a market for the benefits they tout - so where are the products? Dyson hung his hat on having solid state in his new EV - he had to first change that position when it was clearly not possible - then abandoned the whole project. Where is the luxury super thin fast charging Apple Watch ‘Rich Dude Edition’ with a solid state battery in it? They made a gold for 10 grand, don’t you thing they would have offered something similar by now? And if they can make it at low volume tiny cell luxury watch volume, how are they going to scale it to a car? It took 49 years for lithium ion to go from lab, to military use, to expensive consumer electrics to expensive small battery vehicles to eventually mid priced electric vehicles and probably another 5 to 10 to get to affordable electric vehicles. Solid state is still in the lab. Tell me what product you can but with a solid state battery in it and I’ll change my mind.
Well researched excellent video
Here me out just hear me out
instead of spending a ton of lithium on electric cars, we spend it on buses and trains that can carry way more people. For only a little more lithium.
That way, we only really need electrical vehicles for things like ambulances, operation vehicles, firetrucks. etc etc.
Also beyond that, we can also get around by these things called "feet" and "feet powered cars (aka bikes)".
And for disabled people, well they can still have cars if they choose. As it would be to difficult for them to use cars or bikes. But wait, even then if its just them or maybe 1 other person, we could have really small electric vehicles that could travel on bike lanes (which we will also install because bikes are one of the best ways to travel.)
Hear me out just hear me out
I'm not taking a bus everywhere I go. I am not going to try to figure out how to get 2X4s, sheet rock and cement bags onto a bus or train. Cars only produce 16% of the world's total C02 emission. Industry produces 46% of the world's C02 emissions. I'm not trashing my entire way of living to not do anything. If you removed cars completely and ramped up public transportation guess what you'd accomplish? Nothing. The global C02 emissions from cars/buses would remain at 16%.
@@joebrandon1730 here me out, when I say using public transit, I’m not talking about people who live in rural environments or constantly need to haul large things around,
You know I’m not talking about you, so please don’t try to act like I’m talking about you