i don't know how anyone could think you were being harsh towards the subject of reclassing in your previous video where you are constantly hedging your criticisms of its outcomes by only offering solutions that involve keeping the mechanic in place and working to try and offset the elements that you are critical of. you were extremely generous to the mechanic to any sensible observer.
I'm a big fan of the "this thing isn't really for me, but its good to be around since others like it" stance you take here. We need more of that in games discourse as a whole.
Personally, I would replace the class system with a archetype system. Since it would add to the game, without causing any balancing issues. It would actually make things a lot simpler in a good way.
Before I really learned how to properly use the Fates Reclassing system, I preferred the Three Houses system. Now that I've reattempted a Conquest Hard Classic playthrough where I actually planned through things, I see the fun of the system and how good it feels to build a unit up.
There's some neat challenge runs there. It's possible to do a "weebs of Nohr" run where you reclass deployment slots you're using into Hoshido classes. Heck it's possible for it to be all Ninjas
The thing I enjoyed about Fates reclassing system is that everyone's alternate class was done with some thought to that character's personality, skillset, history, or even relationships (many of the retainers share an alternate class with their best friend/fellow retainer or whichever royal they protect is), even if that alternate class is a good compliment to them or not. Charlotte? The tough axe wielding fighter pretending to be a demure and feminine lady for the boys? Alt class Troubadour. Takumi? The archer always in the shadow of his older brother, the Swordmaster Ryoma? The spear fighter that has advantage over swords. Setsuna, the daffy archer who seems to be able to sneak up on people with others realizing it? Ninja.
I think the bigger issue with 3 houses was that for "build your own characters" type game, there were actually very few class options and the good classes were extremely good in comparison to the other options. Most of the characters end up funneled down similar paths due to in game constraints or the choice simply being overtly optimal. Engage does a much better job at balancing the classes although even it has its own share of holes. I feel the emblem rings actually help drive class diversity as most of the rings are incredibly powerful but function incredibly differently. To make full use of a lot of the rings often requires using other classes that normally without the rings would be inferior.
Yeah, though it makes thematical sense that an officers academy would put an emphasis on mobile units, since officers have to be able to move quickly to where they are needed to, the prevalence of most unit paths ending as cavalry is something that irks me greatly about the Fodlan games. It feels samey pretty quickly....
@@aureliodeprimus8018 What bothered me is they made an effort to nerf horse units (giving them low speed), but did NOT nerf fliers and gave fliers free dismounting to essentially remove their bow weakness. It just led to fliers being even better.
What I liked about Engage's reclassing is you can't take class skills out of classes. It put more emphasis on reclassing for CLASSES and not skills. No more "I'm only putting Xander in Hero for Sol".
A Fire Emblem that did reclassing really good was Three Hopes where different units had different learn sets. For example Bernadetta learns armsthrift which reduces the cost of her combat arts, while Ignatz learns One Heart, One Mind which makes him more likely to perform follow-up attacks while he’s an adjutant.
But can you really call it reclassing though! Seeing how no one has a set class it feels like your just placing them in classes then changing out their default sans those who ARE in set classes when they join like the church staff/Knights sans Cyrill. I feel Second Seals should not be limiting nor should they reset levels like it did in Engage. I feel Fates did it best. Only issue was limited seals and needing to Support A+/S to get more classed (which I prefer Engage way of getting access to new classes)
@@paulman34340The purse strings could loosen a bit on seals especially in the early game, maybe one more before chapter 10 in Conquest. Gaining access to new classes is a problem though. In games where its simple or outright automatic for expanding class sets you end up with wyvern armies. You *could* do something different but you're kneecapping yourself. Fates gave limited class options and told you to deal with it. If Conquest had open multiclassing then a great FE game would mechanically become a second 3H and I really don't want that. FE just isn't suited for large amounts of player freedom. People seem to conflate freedom with creativity when I'd argue that they're almost mutually exclusive.
@@sewnmind1786To that I agree! I think on Serenes Forest Forum. There was a vote on what type of class change makes sense, And I voted for limited Class changes as they did in Fates! Basically Classes that "make sense to the character. Which I liked about the Heart Seals! Truth be told when I play Engage! I never take Alear or Veyle out their starting classes/Promotions (Divine Dragon and well you know Veyle's) nor the Twins if I get them out the DLC! If I change classes with everyone else though, I tend to only switch them into classes that make SENSE to their character! Found it much fun that way since I liked it in Fates! (My issue was the amount of LIMITED choices since I remember they give you two! Depends on the installment as the one thing I feel is a flaw with Engage's classes is just how LITTLE there is in Tome/Magic wielding classes! The loss of the Dark Flier is FELT and I Personal's like Zelestia and Ivy & Hortensia's unique classes don't count! I really feel the next Emblem if it's not a remake has to have more Tome classes that are not exclusive (and LESS "Royals" as in characters with UNIQUE classes that feel like re-treads of already existing classes with slight changes) Never cared for that "Freedom" where you could turn a Mage character into a Knight/General-Great Knight simply for a Challenge run or whatever. Because that's going to be the ONLY reason your doing that! And wasn't too keen on how they did characters like Clanne dirty! I should have known when he didn't start with a Wind Tome as is traditional with the "Low Damage but High Speed Mage" in the series (The Merrics) that something was up! Thanks to the Update & Expansion rewards I got enough Magic Dust to spare to up his magic to the levels a MERRIC should have them if I use Clanne! But his growths make no sense to his character as a Mage Character! Felt like he was made so merely because they wanted to give you a Mage character early (Despite it feeling to me the Twins should be "mounted Classes" being Vander's students! Which is why I like to make Framme a Royal Knight and Clanne a Mage Knight) or Jean despite being a Villager and unlimited possibilities! I make him a High Priest because it makes more sense with his wishes to be a Doctor! Really wish the Strategist Class from Fates (Unisex Valkyries basically) was in Engage. Oh well I settle with Hortensia since I never do a run without her and I NEVER take her out her class cause "FLYING STAFFWIELDER! WHY THE FUCK WOULD YOU TAKE HER OUT THAT CLASS!" I have seen complainers who complain about Freedom and turns out they just hate not being able to HAVE the option to do whatever they want! Made no sense to me as it feels they just want the keys to EVERYTHING! And I love the comments about FE not being "replayable" when the reason there's 20 or so chapters IS to encourage replayability (then they use Three Houses only because it gives you NEAR EVERYONE at the start! I like Three Houses and have no complaints playing it over and over! But I like Engage cause I LIKED how I got everyone as the story progressed! If I decide to use a MID recruit like Goldmary and Merrin! Then I'll focus my attentions on the Lord/Alear and anyone who is recruited EARLY and ONLY them while preparing to "Welcome" the two when they come! I'll admit! I DO look into a FE final boss fight online ONLY to find what the Max Deployment Count for it is! And then I decided my final line up to FULLY devote to from there. Engage is nice enough to give a decent amount of boosters and what it can't help offensively the Forge and Forge weapons along with Skills can make up for! Like Citrinne low BLD is fixed thanks to getting BLD + from Leif before chapter 10/11 for her, then buff her MAG or give her Soren to deal with not having to risk her in Melee if I can! Engage gives the freedom to FIX "BAD" characters easily like a few fire emblem's I know, but they STILL complain about limits and I see them as the reason IS seems to always try to add Tempest Trial like shit in the games! I'm sorry never cared for that in Path of Radiance, Roy's game or Sacred Stones! I just replay the game and move on cause THAT'S what I'm here for
@@sewnmind1786 But sans that huge Wall of Text! Yeah, I like 3H don't get me wrong, but I will ALWAYS like limited Class Options like Fates where it makes sense to the character over Openness (even if I said I like how Engage handled class change! I still don't find myself putting a character in classes that make no sense to them! Hell I did that in Three Houses! Only after I beat all the routes and DLC side story did I find out about the insanity that was "make everyone a Wyvern Lord" and frankly I never liked doing dumb shit like that! I tend to like being DIVERSE! Funny enough you may see me running more Paladins, but really in 3H case! You see a Great Knight, a Paladin, a Valkyrie, a Bow Knight, a Dark Knight, a Holy Knight, a Dark Flier, a Wyvern Lord, and a Falcon Knight. And Maybe a few foot only units like Edelgard and Dimitri in their personal Classes....along with Byleth in Enlightened One! I only venture into different classes for the Mastery Skill and messing with my Stat Growths during OFF-CHAPTERS Leveling & Money Grinding! During Paralogues and Chapter Battles! Characters are in their "Make Sense for the Story as I see it" Classes and I might have two characters in the same class! But I found it BORING to just play "META" crap when I don't have to! Games are only hard if you refuse to play them "RIGHT" and the META is for those who want to FEEL invincible (If they do it right as I followed a Meta to Baldur's Gate 2 when I was a teen and it was HORRIBLE! Never cared to do that type of shit again! I'll play as I wish thank you) I will also agree that they could have given you more money or lowered the cost for Second Seals! I feel in a future Fire Emblem! Second Seals should be unlimited (Bring back no level reset from Fates please) and limited only by your purse strings, as someone who played Dead Space and Resident Evil 4 the ORIGINALS and Horror games like them where money was finite as supplies! The limited resources EVEN WITH all the bonuses in Engage and in Conquest REALLY was something I loved and was manageable! People need to think out their purchases, they do it in other JRPG. The ones where you CAN'T easily grind money! So why not! Even if I can grind money! I do put a HARD limit of how many times I do it often! In Conquest sake! I can only use Boo Camp and the Gold DLC "Four Times" per Chapter/Paralogue! By Four I mean TOTAL FOR BOTH! (Meaning if I do Boo Camp, I can only pick it or Gold DLC Three Times!) If I get little per time of EXP and Gold....too bad, do the next chapter/paralogue to "refresh/reset" the times I can do it again "in my head" (What I liked about three houses is the HARD limit on times you can Grind, I will admit I liked the count to be LOWER to REALLY make you think out if you'll train, grind money/resources or do a Paralogue! And Engage just makes them HARDER and VERY limited that you have to MESS with the clock system of the switch which I won't do to see them! The DLC Paralogues have them when you beat them MORE as a way that their WEAK and you can beat them so you can RESET the Sominel for Dog/Ingot & Well Reasons, the Xenologue even acts like a MONEY DLC if you complete all but the final chapter of it as then those weak challenges will have MANY Gold Enemies and the GOLD flying Wyrms give TWICE the small gold drops that you can have the money you MIGHT need for maybe the forge or to grab a needed item/weapon before the next chapter! The game is nice with it's gold....just not nice to Wasters)
I fine with Re-classing existing in the series. cause yeah it can add new ways to fresh up how you play things. I never really dive into much into it as it will require a lot of extra work I don't want to. the most I did was in awakening I believe. which i had some fun making some real nasty units. turned the end game into a joke. it spark some joy in me to see my Chrom go into overkill mode on the final boss. ended up having my shortest turn count with a final map for the whole series as result. I should try to do that something like that again.
Two of my favorite reclasses to do in awakening is to get 10 levels of Vaike in his fighter then immediately switch him to brigand. It rapidly bumps his HP and STR to ridiculous levels and patches up his mild speed issue. You don’t need bows when 4 hand axes and 25+ STR. I don’t know why, but I like making Kellam a priest if given the opportunity. His magic is awful but that means it’s really easy to get max staff rank. He’s so tanky and is the physically strongest war monk you can get. Plus that renewal and axe proficiency is nice if you reclass him back into armor knight.
I personally disagree about having the supports not mention the base class of the unit. Since the writers probably only know/care about what the characters default class is, there’s no reason to remove stuff about it. Like for example having Hinoka’s supports without her pegasus wouldn’t make as much sense if she was a different class because her backstory goes into why she decided to become a pegasus knight, which is a good part of her character. Plus, it would mean that more dialogue would have to be written and/or voiced, which games tend to shy away from since it would mean paying people more.
Back in the GBA, supports could only happen midbattle. There it makes sense people complain about theoretical supports in classes without mounts talking about stuff their mount is doing in the moment. Nowadays, supports happen in controlled places, so it could be handwaved as the convo happening in a stable or something
I think people are just silly about it. Marianne talk about her horse in her supports, but she isn't even in a mounted class canonically. Having an horse does not mean you have to ride it all the times. Reclassing just mean you are keeping it in the stable for the time being.
@noukan42 But their are multiple mounted horse classes she can be in and not having a set class in three houses means it doesn't detract the supports (Shamir for example makes alot of mention to her archery and comes in the Sniper class. But out of fairness characters are not really confine to a set weapon in any class sans some of the magic classes banning Brawl/gauntlets weapon use. Since Marienne has a background of loving horses to the point it's her PERSONAL SKILL that takes into mind if she's horse mounted or not it makes sense)
@@paulman34340 what i am trying to say is that just because a character has a favored weapon or a named horse doesn't mean that they need to use those all the times. Robin Hood is the most iconic archer, but it is safe to assume that he fought with other weapons as a vassal of Richard the Lionheart during the crusades. Miyamoto Musashi literally wrote the book about being a Myrm and said book include technique on how to use spears, bows and guns as well. "Reclassing" is a thing warriors do all the times because for the most part FE classes are just the set of equipment you wield. Just because someone is a master swordman, it does not mean they can't wield an axe at all, nor it mean they would always prefer the sword. But they would still talk about swords rather than axes.
@@noukan42 It's more character I was making a point with! Marianne liked horses that she was caring for one and even named it! Her personal support as says even heals her if she's land mounted (which has her on a horse) or next to a unit that is land mounted! Shamir is the closet to Robin Hood you can get and she's skilled with other weapon types (especially thanks to how the skill system of 3Houses works) but she's an expert of Archery! (Though she's a sniper, she can be trained into Assassin that can fit her "Mercenary" background) When you have a Set class it can cause problems in supports though I can counter that they can STILL be connected to those things and their current class could be seen as "doing something different!" Like Minerva in FEH makes mention to having previously been a Pegasus Rider (since they promote into Wyvern Knights! While I will note that when they made a child version of her, that version is a Wyvern Knight which goes against her being a Pegasus Rider previously! Though you could say this was a point in her life where she "promoted early!" can't say since Palla is also a Pegasus Rider and already her aide in her young version as well while Catria is caring for a younger Est!) Hinoka might still go on patrols as a Sky Knight and care for her Pegasus even when she isn't the class outside "official battles" (where you have control!). I mean Sophie still has Avel in her Supports even if you take her out of a Horse Mounted Class as he's tied to . Amber is introduced in the same way Sophie was in Fates. Except "Horsie" is never mentioned again as he brings up Alpaca alot. I will say it likely is better they DON'T make the character's official artwork/outfit show OFF that class too much as I remember Noire from Awakening is ALWAYS shown with a bow, even if you take her out of Bow wielding classes that I found WEIRD and was happy when Fates and beyond they started to make their outfits NOT connected to heavily to their Classes (especially from the Three Houses crowd! Shamir's outfit doesn't scream Archer, but more "Scout" which can be a WHOLE number of classes!)
I liked three houses keeping the unique outfit as an option. I wish it was engage especially, because man those generic outfits are ugly. (Apart from a couple)
@@scottserage9022 hero goes from the most dripped out class to an awkward mess of a design every other game. Fates and GBA heroes are dope. I think the issue comes when they try give the hero things like weird full body light armor that leads to things like the awakening hero.
The one thing 3h did well, was making classes unlockable. That would be very much appreciated in something like Fates, where choosing who to promoted or reclass can be scary, for it not only cost a lot, but locks other units out for a while. Say, someone reclasses Elise into wyvern, now the servant is the only healer up to promoting Niles, recruiting Shura, the second servant, reclassing Effie, Charlotte, or Leo or getting Forrest or Dwyer. All of which are either a high commitment, come late or both. I like how impactful reclassing is in fates, but I've seen a lot of players scared dead of using it because of the commitment.
there's nothing wrong with reclassing in fates asking commitment, there is quite a lot of options and the more they play the more confortable they'll be with using it, also every route is perfectly winnable without reclassing at all, at least in normal difficulty
Personally i do like reclassing, but I prefer how its done in Awakening and Fates, where each character has their own pros and cons and different paths for their promotions, and makes it so you can’t just make everyone into the strongest class available like making everyone a Wyvern Lord in 3 Houses
I just discovered your channel, and I really appreciate your approach to discussing these games! There is a lot of depth here, but uou make these topics so accessible! Thank you for all of the work you do on these vids!
I definitely prefer units just being a class. I feel games like FE4, FE5, FE9, and FE10 Did a good job at allowing unit customization while giving every unit an identity, and these were primarily tied to skills. FE4 had gen 2 which you would customize via their inheritance, which changes items, skills, growths, and holy blood, it even changed the endings of gen 2 characters. Even if you went substitute only for the units, they have special events to help gain stats, and there's still weapons and rings to customize them with. FE5 had the skill manuals, one time use items that you could use to give any unit skills like vantage, wrath, sol, luna, paragon, and accost. Units also had really powerful unit identity because of additional things like the follow up critical multiplier. FE9 and FE10 had a revamped skill system where a unit had a pool of points and each skill cost a certain amount. I feel additional changes could have been made to this system, but it allowed for some flexibility, and you could even take skills that came on a unit off of them to give to another unit that you were actually using.
I really don't think so. In most games an unit identity can be summed up by 2 things: class and base level. In FE4 almost every unit boil dow to: has an horse? Has pursuit? Has a legendary weapon? Everything else is, with rare exceptions, basically flavour. The children that can play a different role with a different father are very few and mostly involving staves. PoR is even worse because BEXP abuse simply eclypse everything else to a comical degree. And in RD most units are just defined by whatever they have enought chapters to level up or not. Customizzation require changes that actually make the unit play differently, otherwise they are window dressing. And most of the older games rarely achieve that because 90% of the feature of an unit are tied to wich class it belong to.
I really enjoy reclassing in FE, the way three houses did it with every unit having a different set of combat arts and magics was really interesting and keeping units feeling unique. I still really enjoy when I don't play with reclassing but things like class growth rates that are outside of a characters main classline I always find really fun I agree with this a lot(and the one about unit identity) Sorry if this seems scattered my thoughts are a bit more wild than usual right now
Fates remains my favourite reclassing system. Every unit initially has 2 class sets and can obtain additional 2 over the course the game, which is more than enough. It has 2 issues: One, Partner Seals and Friendship Seals only check unit's primary class when choosing what they'll get from the seal. So for example if Effie, who's primary class is Armor Knight and secondary a Troubadour, gets A+ support with Elise, then Friendship Seal will give her a Troubadour. If she gets S support with Jakob, Partner Seal will once again give her a Troubadour, effectively bricking both seals. Easy way to fix is to instead have the game check all of units available classes so Effie gets Elise's secondary class (Wyvern Rider) and Jakob's secondary class (Cavalier) and if that check fails as well, then give parallel class. Two, some units have a secondary class that is completely useless for them (Felicia, Rinkah, Orochi, Setsuna, Kagero, Kaden and Peri), which hurts the variety when the reclass isn't worth it outside of memes. Easy fix for that is... well... don't give a unit with no personal magic base/growth a magic class and vice versa with physical classes. Or in case of Setsuna and Rinkah - a class that helps offset their weaknesses rather than amplifying them. Other than that it's the best middle ground between freeform reclassing and retaining unit identity.
I think an interesting way to help unit identity would be building off Engage's Favored Weapon mechanic, imagine characters could keep a mid to low weapon rank for a weapon they're used to, and carry it into other classes. The weapon can grow weapon ranks much faster in a class that has it normally and become usable in classes that normally don't. So you could do something like put that mage into a Swordmaster to make a Diet Mortal Savant in a game that might not have it because they keep D-B tomes along with the S Swords from Swordmaster, or they could stay in their magic using class, shoot up to S rank super fast and be a super powerful specialist. Maybe if you really wanted to make a choice, maybe most classes can't reach the highest weapon rakns and need to match a favored weapon, or the favored weapon allows some specially high weapon rank (Like how Tellius had SS rank) Edit: This also means these two units with very similar growths are less 1-1 with the options granted by a favored weapon, maybe Mage A and Cleric A have very similar growths and early join time, but because their favored weapons are Tomes and Staves respectively, they ultimately function differently, even when reclassed into some other options because one retains the ability to use basic offensive magic and the other retains some support abilities, even if both became, say, Halberdiers
I'm not a fan of reclassing, but I don't for a second think that your previous video was anti-reclassing. Tbh, it's probably just because a number of people (me included) were being anti-reclassing in the comments. Anyways... I said Fates has the best reclassing, but I think 3 Hopes also should be discussed for open reclassing. The "main" paths gives more options and you can change whenever once you have a class unlocked (outside battle). The important part though, is that some people can't learn certain abilities and that makes others who can feel more unique. And that's not mentioning combat arts and 3 personal skills. They could have only had like 2 different learnsets per class and it probably would have been felt unique, considering the 8 class lines and 10 master classes.
This is a great video, but I definetly need to say that being able to give a class you like to a character you like is not the ideal scenario. Are you stuck using Knoll or Ewan as your only Shamans (my favorite class) in FE8? Then you will remember Knoll fondly for being the game's one user of dark magic.
“That’s a lot of fun if you’re the type of player that enjoys planning and being rewarded for it” Almost like… it’s a strategy game! I kid but it was funny to hear the phrasing
Something I think is worth mentioning is that Shadow Dragon's reclassing, while free to do, does have a limit on how many units of each class type you can have. Through the whole game, each class type has a limit of however many of that class you've been given, plus one. For instance in chapter four, when you first get access to reclassing, you have no mages, so you can only make one unit into a mage. You do, however, have a flier in the form of Caeda, meaning you can have two flying units. Between the free reclassing, the generic units you get if you kill off enough of your army, and the Gaiden chapter requirements mostly just being "have 15 or less surviving units at the end of the previous chapter" makes the game almost encourage recklessness, and it's a vastly different style of gameplay from any other FE game out there, because the game gives you backup methods to gain what you need to finish the game no matter how you play.
@@SinNun-tx5jp the intended reaction wasn't "KILL YOUR UNITS TO ACCESS THESE OPTIONAL MAPS" but rather "These optional maps are for players struggling through the game" Like it's really weird how whenever I watch an ironman of Shadow Dragon and some people purposefully kill units off while complaining to access these chapters even though no one is breaking down their front door and putting a gun to their head and telling them to or else...
I still remember one time in awakening Olivia became so powerful cause of reclassing, I wanted her to get some more power just to give her a way to not die if a melee unit got to her so I made her a myrimadon and even gave her a few levels in swordmaster to just give her a little better stats, I turned her back I think after she learned astra and she almost always hit it when she attacked
Reclassing needs to be heavily limited in future games. It makes character design and class clarity difficult to parse when looking at some characters. 3H having the school setting has the biggest issue with this. You can't tell what a character's base class if they all have the same school uniform. Engage in particular has a few characters where you really can't tell what their base class could even be until you see them in-game or look it up. I would rather have character designs in the future to be based around what their base class is supposed to be with a few reclass options that suit their base class. This is something I've been thinking about ever since Fates because of just how different the character designs have become after Awakening.
My personal reclassing preference is either awakening or fates… though also I like split branch class lines, somewhat prefer them over linear lines and greatly prefer them to 3 houses’s “tiered” classes
I don't *hate* reclassing, but going back over a game like Awakening made me realize just how important the reclass options are. ...and, yes, my problem was how many people could be Wyvern Riders and Pegasi Knights. For every character where it vaguely made sense, you'd just sorta get...Panne for some reason?But because fliers in most every game are good, getting to have a large army of them is both cool visually but also sorta- bad (not to mention if its a game that has bad maps).
I kinda wished Class Compatibility was a thing in reclassing as opposed to thresholds akin to Fire Emblem Three Houses. The older Persona Games before 3 had each party member have their own Compatibility with Persona of various Arcana. If you choose a Persona on a party member with Great Compatibility,you get boosts in stats and a discount on MP cost. So if you reclass into a class your are compatible with,you gain more stats for said class and maybe at best case scenario gain a skill you wouldn't if you had lesser Compatibility. And Bad or Worst Compatibility you either cannot reclass or you gain severe penalties trying to use it. I guess this is why I loved Branching Promotions and Reclassing better. Some units are better with a certain promotion due to the weapon types or the promo gains being better for their build. I am okay with choice but having no limits ruin gameplay balance and makes the game piss easy and funneled to one build. Cue the Bow Wyvern Lord Emblem of Three Houses again.
I feel that base stats, weapon levels, personal skills, and growths do a better and less forced job than having a new stats to bother you. Like you could reclass Lena into a Myrmidon but it gives you nothing valuable, as opposed to reclassing Wolf and Sedgar into Generals or Heroes.
I like branching promos and limited reclassing. It helps stop every unit from doing everything and a wyvern meta evolving, while highlighting characters who may not be the best stat wise but are good due to the role they can fill that others can't. Limited reclassing let you do new things with units, but it took a lot of investment, and some stuff still just wasn't possible.
I tend to leave reclasses for replays. Only reclassing the avatar. If the avatar is supposed to be me. I would prefer to use any class that doesnt use a sword.
Guess its gonna talk about the skills you get from awakening and fates which is very good as some units benefits to extremes with a reclass Morgan for example is usually the mother/father class opposite robin so they can get those parent skills then go to dark flier for gale force if it isn't a gale mom. Lissa and Maribelle for example could be good dark fliers if they go directly to it due to having high magic. Niore same she's honestly better as a dark mage than archet due to her parents having magic growths when i play. Fates wise it's even more useful as any and all skills are saved at the end of the game meaning you have it forever when you register the unit giving you more resources for the next playthrough(especially if you took aptitude from the cheat shop) And thats without talking about the trainee units in donnel who's reclass is his entire journey symbolism to a T.
On the previous fire emblem, the class is for me the identity of the character. Reclassing like awakening (all gale force) , 3 houses (all wyvern) or engage ( all griffon) is really bad for me. Cause the character are not unique anymore. I really love the Reclassing of fates. Not a lot of classes preserves the identity of a character. But! It seems there are no perfect system yet. I would like more unique trait ( like 3houses but even more) with the Reclassing système of fate or no Reclassing. I really like to play the character for what it was created for. With no Reclassing system, all character are like unique classes ( or closed because low competition between character) + the army has to be divertified because you don't have the choice.
I think FE8/Awakening/Fates at least how i remember them, did Classes the best, you can play units in multiple classes, but they usually were similar to the units base class or were to fit their character. With 3H every class being open for every character took away from their identity but during Echoes it really hurt the replayability of the game when everyone except villagers has a locked class and you can wield every unit.
Reclassing adds a basic layer of replay value when it's present, but I do think it's unnecessary to let units be whatever unless they do more to make each unit distinct. Rare or unique skills or combat arts/spells, unique benefits or rewards from supports, or personal weapons can add more to how a unit works. Including a mechanic similar to the emblem rings could add even more depth, but I hope they give each unit more unique benefits if they do. Too many times will IS grant specific units powerful bonuses like custom classes, personal weapons, etc. and then a lot of units not only get none of that, but some are just super bad with not even a useful niche. Reclassing, skill systems, and emblem rings added so much more to making those types of units useful, but taking it a step further to give more unique benefits to each unit could make the experience so much better instead of taking a big risk with a terrible unit.
I'd be interested in seeing an FE game use a reclassing system that has promption seals based on unit type. If you want to reclass someone into a physical foot unit you need to give them an infantry seal, mage seals for magic units, etc. This could add a lot ot interesting resource management to the game as you need to think which units should get which seals. For example, if you want a tier 2 wyvern knight you need to give both your wyvern seals to a single unit, making them very strong but that's your only wyvern knight for the game. This would also help class balancing since you can balance the stength of a specific line of classes based on how many of their seals you get.
Reclassing has soured for me over the last few entries. Engage and especially 3H have essentially convinced me its a bad idea but at least with Fates and Awakening the limited options for each unit made it a lot more interesting. I still struggle with reclassing Felicia to Strategist each playthrough due to the speed loss. Unfortunatly I think Nintendo as a whole seems to want to go for the sandbox route and FE is horribly suited for large amounts of customization. 3H was carried hard by its amazing characters and its gameplay was some of the worst I can remember with boring maps... Route maps especially.
Free reclassing tends to shine a light on whether or not a game has bad class balance. It's one thing if fliers are broken in FE7 when you only get a limited number of them. That limitation lets the devs experiment with imbalanced classes statistically, but in a game with free reclassing, everyone can be that broken class. The reason everyone goes wyvern in 3H isn't just because they can because of free reclassing, it's because wyvern is just that much better than almost every other class. It's why, for me at least, Engage felt less egregious with its free reclassing, because the balance is better. There's still definitely some shit classes in that game, but it's not all wyverns, all the time.
Yup! Though I think Growth rates are best as a supplementary tool for unit identity, since players can't see them. So, without using online tools it can take a bit for a player to figure out what a unit's growths actually are.
I never liked reclassing, it's just feels wrong when a fighter becomes cavalier or monk a flier. I guess it can be fun, but you can hardly make an serious story when a typical obsessed edgy myrmidon becomes archer. Also I would say it limits you character choice, because what point in investing into some OG Wyvern rider, when I can just make my fav one. Sure using Knoll is painful as hell, but you definitely will remember him after finishing the game, unless if you could just make L'achel into shaman
I think there is one other way to make reclassing a fun mechanic. Make it be a suggestion for some units, where their skill spread suit one particular class, but it isn't the one they start in. Make a unit whose family pushes them to be a cavalier, but who have clearly show a preference for being a mage, for example. And build it into their supports, where they are considering what class to be, and their friends are pushing them to try a bunch out.
One big shout out to Engage and, to a lesser extent, Three Houses reclassing is that the units have unique color pallets. Awakening and Fates's ugly generic blue armor just makes units feel way worse from an identity and aesthetics perspective. Engage and Three Houses might drop you into a generic model but at least the unit still looks like the unit. The only reason I give Engage a little more credit for this than Three Houses is that the pallets are bit more consistent. I do wish that Engage had Three Houses' option to use the units default outfit in different classes though.
My main problem with FE reclassing discourse is that every instance of "complexity" in any argument needs to be replaced with "multiple wiki tabs" because 90% of the information you need to plan builds isn't available in the game. Taking Engage as an example: it's make absolutely ZERO sense that your first mage, the guy that exists to be a tutorial on magical damage, being made to be reclassed into an str class because his invisible magic growth is basically 0%.
Ummm did u say BOTH DRUID CANDIDATE ARE BAD.i want you to replay fe8 and use ewan as a dark mage I had him go summoner and he has better stats then SETH. So ya Ewan is not bad
Love the reclassing system when it feels like there’s more than just a couple of popular master class options, sucks when it’s just Wyvern Master Emblem
The trade off at it's worse can be a completely bricked character or a waste of double the resources for nothing if you change a magic unit into a physical fighter in earlier games or vice versa. Engage its cool that stats just readjust for the class. But aside from fates and slow play accounts I don't see much point in experimenting as it's just more work for less pay off
Doing worst class playthroughs in Three Houses can be a lot of fun. Entirely doable, even in Maddening. New Game+ gives you more than enough resources to make it a fairly smooth experience, but it's still possible from a fresh New Game file. A lot of characters that are primarily physically oriented that don't have any boons or hidden talents in magic still have interesting and useful spell lists to draw upon. Some of those to the point they may be worth going that way even when not doing a challenge run. I always avoid Pegasus Ingrid on Blue Lions route, choosing to train her magic or hybrid classes (it's best to recruit her late on other routes, so that's where I favor training her Strengths). It's pretty hard to brick a character in Three Houses, and you're generally going to be putting in near the same effort and investment regardless of what classes you make characters since it's part of the core gameplay loop either way. Main caveat is you have to plan early and are locked in to your long term goal in that game. Not a whole lot of room to switch gears with a given character once you're deeper into the story progression. All that said, I do still really hope there is a much more limited or fixed class progression installment in the series within the near future. Fire Emblem thrives when each game has something new to offer from the games immediately proceeding it, and reclassing has been too heavy of a focus for multiple games in a roll.
The problem with reclassing Fire Emblems is that the map design suffers a lot. In no reclassing FE, designers kinda know what units you can have at any moment and they create the maps accordingly. Just look at that FE8 map you showed. The villages, Amelia's movement, the water gap and the flier(s) available. It wants you to rush Seth to the Draco shield, pick the rapier with a flier and go forward fast with your army to recruit Amelia, who has one less movement than your lord. Without that knowledge, designers just put a whole lot of enemies in a vast map, and just create gimmicks and skirmishes. But no thoughtful design of the map as a whole.
Reclass games like Conquest and Engage have absolutely great maps, what you're describing is that old maps used to be 'tighter' because they were linear. You can't just say maps like Takemi's Canal or Griss's fog of War are just gimmicks and skirmishes because those additional terrain effects and abilities add so much to the strategizing of the map and leads to so many creative ways to beat the map with no easy obvious answers.
@@bumibomber Well, Conquest is perhaps the least "reclass friendly" of all FE where it's allowed, and in chapter 10 you can have maybe 1 or 2 Second Seals. That's why that map is awesome. And Griss' map is very gimmicky. Fog of war map with a teleporting boss... Yes, it may be good, but relies in gimmicks nonetheless. And talking about Engage. The desert with raising water, the last Marni and Mauvier map, the last Veyle map and the next, recovering the emblems. All of those are big skirmishy maps with some gimmick.
@@FandeREvil The limited classes on canal contributes very little to what that map actually gives, other than the fact that you have limited fliers which youre going to have in most reclass games anyway other than three houses, who imo did reclassing and map design the worst of the reclass games. Also stop downplaying good map design just because it has a gimmick as good map design only because it's a gimmick. If a map is well built around that idea and is fun to play because of it, it IS a good map.
I don't know if this sounds heretical, but I think I'd like reclassing more if it was a New Game+ feature. I kind of like my first playthroughs to be "default" settings and then do "what ifs" afterwards
Reclassing>No reclassing. Custom options are an intrinsic element of the series in the modern day. If I wanted generic units I’d play an actual strategy game and not Fire Emblem.
Fire Emblem is supposed to be first and foremost a war simulation. You are supposed to recruit a fully functional soldier that may die. Customization units is secondary, the most important is if your unit is alive or not. Sometimes I wish Fire Emblem come back with the 20 maximum stat cap, it makes the game more interesting in the risk side.
The HD pack îs useless. And I hate hearkng the units talking when you select them. Also here again talking only about fates. You are honestly such a clown
Also fates pair up mechanic îs very mediocre implemented. Not to mention reclassing sucks other than getting skills and reclassing back, since you get E rank în other weapons and it's a pain to rank weapons up.
I feel like a neat idea would be for unlocking the ability to re-class anyone without restriction after beating the game with restricted FE8 style promotions. as a sort of optional easter-egg or sandbox mode.
i don't know how anyone could think you were being harsh towards the subject of reclassing in your previous video where you are constantly hedging your criticisms of its outcomes by only offering solutions that involve keeping the mechanic in place and working to try and offset the elements that you are critical of. you were extremely generous to the mechanic to any sensible observer.
I'm a big fan of the "this thing isn't really for me, but its good to be around since others like it" stance you take here. We need more of that in games discourse as a whole.
Yea, too many people are "my way of the highway" when it comes to game design. More often in favor of limiting other players choices.
Personally, I would replace the class system with a archetype system.
Since it would add to the game, without causing any balancing issues. It would actually make things a lot simpler in a good way.
Before I really learned how to properly use the Fates Reclassing system, I preferred the Three Houses system. Now that I've reattempted a Conquest Hard Classic playthrough where I actually planned through things, I see the fun of the system and how good it feels to build a unit up.
There's some neat challenge runs there. It's possible to do a "weebs of Nohr" run where you reclass deployment slots you're using into Hoshido classes. Heck it's possible for it to be all Ninjas
The thing I enjoyed about Fates reclassing system is that everyone's alternate class was done with some thought to that character's personality, skillset, history, or even relationships (many of the retainers share an alternate class with their best friend/fellow retainer or whichever royal they protect is), even if that alternate class is a good compliment to them or not.
Charlotte? The tough axe wielding fighter pretending to be a demure and feminine lady for the boys? Alt class Troubadour.
Takumi? The archer always in the shadow of his older brother, the Swordmaster Ryoma? The spear fighter that has advantage over swords.
Setsuna, the daffy archer who seems to be able to sneak up on people with others realizing it? Ninja.
Elise, who loves her family more than anything: Wyvern Rider, just like her older sister Camilla.
I think the bigger issue with 3 houses was that for "build your own characters" type game, there were actually very few class options and the good classes were extremely good in comparison to the other options. Most of the characters end up funneled down similar paths due to in game constraints or the choice simply being overtly optimal.
Engage does a much better job at balancing the classes although even it has its own share of holes. I feel the emblem rings actually help drive class diversity as most of the rings are incredibly powerful but function incredibly differently. To make full use of a lot of the rings often requires using other classes that normally without the rings would be inferior.
Yeah, though it makes thematical sense that an officers academy would put an emphasis on mobile units, since officers have to be able to move quickly to where they are needed to, the prevalence of most unit paths ending as cavalry is something that irks me greatly about the Fodlan games. It feels samey pretty quickly....
@@aureliodeprimus8018 What bothered me is they made an effort to nerf horse units (giving them low speed), but did NOT nerf fliers and gave fliers free dismounting to essentially remove their bow weakness. It just led to fliers being even better.
What I liked about Engage's reclassing is you can't take class skills out of classes. It put more emphasis on reclassing for CLASSES and not skills. No more "I'm only putting Xander in Hero for Sol".
@@BigKlingy Jup. Three Houses became Wyvern Emblem pretty fast.....
@@aureliodeprimus8018 I made everyone dark knights and end tier mages myself.
A Fire Emblem that did reclassing really good was Three Hopes where different units had different learn sets. For example Bernadetta learns armsthrift which reduces the cost of her combat arts, while Ignatz learns One Heart, One Mind which makes him more likely to perform follow-up attacks while he’s an adjutant.
Or lysithea who learns proficient wittstrike when she masters mortal savant, making her one of the the most op Sword units în The game.
But can you really call it reclassing though! Seeing how no one has a set class it feels like your just placing them in classes then changing out their default sans those who ARE in set classes when they join like the church staff/Knights sans Cyrill. I feel Second Seals should not be limiting nor should they reset levels like it did in Engage.
I feel Fates did it best. Only issue was limited seals and needing to Support A+/S to get more classed (which I prefer Engage way of getting access to new classes)
@@paulman34340The purse strings could loosen a bit on seals especially in the early game, maybe one more before chapter 10 in Conquest.
Gaining access to new classes is a problem though. In games where its simple or outright automatic for expanding class sets you end up with wyvern armies. You *could* do something different but you're kneecapping yourself. Fates gave limited class options and told you to deal with it. If Conquest had open multiclassing then a great FE game would mechanically become a second 3H and I really don't want that.
FE just isn't suited for large amounts of player freedom. People seem to conflate freedom with creativity when I'd argue that they're almost mutually exclusive.
@@sewnmind1786To that I agree! I think on Serenes Forest Forum. There was a vote on what type of class change makes sense, And I voted for limited Class changes as they did in Fates! Basically Classes that "make sense to the character. Which I liked about the Heart Seals! Truth be told when I play Engage! I never take Alear or Veyle out their starting classes/Promotions (Divine Dragon and well you know Veyle's) nor the Twins if I get them out the DLC! If I change classes with everyone else though, I tend to only switch them into classes that make SENSE to their character! Found it much fun that way since I liked it in Fates! (My issue was the amount of LIMITED choices since I remember they give you two! Depends on the installment as the one thing I feel is a flaw with Engage's classes is just how LITTLE there is in Tome/Magic wielding classes! The loss of the Dark Flier is FELT and I Personal's like Zelestia and Ivy & Hortensia's unique classes don't count! I really feel the next Emblem if it's not a remake has to have more Tome classes that are not exclusive (and LESS "Royals" as in characters with UNIQUE classes that feel like re-treads of already existing classes with slight changes)
Never cared for that "Freedom" where you could turn a Mage character into a Knight/General-Great Knight simply for a Challenge run or whatever. Because that's going to be the ONLY reason your doing that! And wasn't too keen on how they did characters like Clanne dirty! I should have known when he didn't start with a Wind Tome as is traditional with the "Low Damage but High Speed Mage" in the series (The Merrics) that something was up! Thanks to the Update & Expansion rewards I got enough Magic Dust to spare to up his magic to the levels a MERRIC should have them if I use Clanne! But his growths make no sense to his character as a Mage Character! Felt like he was made so merely because they wanted to give you a Mage character early (Despite it feeling to me the Twins should be "mounted Classes" being Vander's students! Which is why I like to make Framme a Royal Knight and Clanne a Mage Knight) or Jean despite being a Villager and unlimited possibilities! I make him a High Priest because it makes more sense with his wishes to be a Doctor! Really wish the Strategist Class from Fates (Unisex Valkyries basically) was in Engage. Oh well I settle with Hortensia since I never do a run without her and I NEVER take her out her class cause "FLYING STAFFWIELDER! WHY THE FUCK WOULD YOU TAKE HER OUT THAT CLASS!"
I have seen complainers who complain about Freedom and turns out they just hate not being able to HAVE the option to do whatever they want! Made no sense to me as it feels they just want the keys to EVERYTHING! And I love the comments about FE not being "replayable" when the reason there's 20 or so chapters IS to encourage replayability (then they use Three Houses only because it gives you NEAR EVERYONE at the start! I like Three Houses and have no complaints playing it over and over! But I like Engage cause I LIKED how I got everyone as the story progressed! If I decide to use a MID recruit like Goldmary and Merrin! Then I'll focus my attentions on the Lord/Alear and anyone who is recruited EARLY and ONLY them while preparing to "Welcome" the two when they come! I'll admit! I DO look into a FE final boss fight online ONLY to find what the Max Deployment Count for it is! And then I decided my final line up to FULLY devote to from there. Engage is nice enough to give a decent amount of boosters and what it can't help offensively the Forge and Forge weapons along with Skills can make up for! Like Citrinne low BLD is fixed thanks to getting BLD + from Leif before chapter 10/11 for her, then buff her MAG or give her Soren to deal with not having to risk her in Melee if I can! Engage gives the freedom to FIX "BAD" characters easily like a few fire emblem's I know, but they STILL complain about limits and I see them as the reason IS seems to always try to add Tempest Trial like shit in the games! I'm sorry never cared for that in Path of Radiance, Roy's game or Sacred Stones! I just replay the game and move on cause THAT'S what I'm here for
@@sewnmind1786 But sans that huge Wall of Text! Yeah, I like 3H don't get me wrong, but I will ALWAYS like limited Class Options like Fates where it makes sense to the character over Openness (even if I said I like how Engage handled class change! I still don't find myself putting a character in classes that make no sense to them! Hell I did that in Three Houses! Only after I beat all the routes and DLC side story did I find out about the insanity that was "make everyone a Wyvern Lord" and frankly I never liked doing dumb shit like that! I tend to like being DIVERSE! Funny enough you may see me running more Paladins, but really in 3H case! You see a Great Knight, a Paladin, a Valkyrie, a Bow Knight, a Dark Knight, a Holy Knight, a Dark Flier, a Wyvern Lord, and a Falcon Knight. And Maybe a few foot only units like Edelgard and Dimitri in their personal Classes....along with Byleth in Enlightened One! I only venture into different classes for the Mastery Skill and messing with my Stat Growths during OFF-CHAPTERS Leveling & Money Grinding! During Paralogues and Chapter Battles! Characters are in their "Make Sense for the Story as I see it" Classes and I might have two characters in the same class! But I found it BORING to just play "META" crap when I don't have to! Games are only hard if you refuse to play them "RIGHT" and the META is for those who want to FEEL invincible (If they do it right as I followed a Meta to Baldur's Gate 2 when I was a teen and it was HORRIBLE! Never cared to do that type of shit again! I'll play as I wish thank you)
I will also agree that they could have given you more money or lowered the cost for Second Seals! I feel in a future Fire Emblem! Second Seals should be unlimited (Bring back no level reset from Fates please) and limited only by your purse strings, as someone who played Dead Space and Resident Evil 4 the ORIGINALS and Horror games like them where money was finite as supplies! The limited resources EVEN WITH all the bonuses in Engage and in Conquest REALLY was something I loved and was manageable! People need to think out their purchases, they do it in other JRPG. The ones where you CAN'T easily grind money! So why not! Even if I can grind money! I do put a HARD limit of how many times I do it often! In Conquest sake! I can only use Boo Camp and the Gold DLC "Four Times" per Chapter/Paralogue! By Four I mean TOTAL FOR BOTH! (Meaning if I do Boo Camp, I can only pick it or Gold DLC Three Times!) If I get little per time of EXP and Gold....too bad, do the next chapter/paralogue to "refresh/reset" the times I can do it again "in my head" (What I liked about three houses is the HARD limit on times you can Grind, I will admit I liked the count to be LOWER to REALLY make you think out if you'll train, grind money/resources or do a Paralogue! And Engage just makes them HARDER and VERY limited that you have to MESS with the clock system of the switch which I won't do to see them! The DLC Paralogues have them when you beat them MORE as a way that their WEAK and you can beat them so you can RESET the Sominel for Dog/Ingot & Well Reasons, the Xenologue even acts like a MONEY DLC if you complete all but the final chapter of it as then those weak challenges will have MANY Gold Enemies and the GOLD flying Wyrms give TWICE the small gold drops that you can have the money you MIGHT need for maybe the forge or to grab a needed item/weapon before the next chapter! The game is nice with it's gold....just not nice to Wasters)
Whatever the topic, your videos really are in a *class* of their own!
Then it is time it gets a promotion
I fine with Re-classing existing in the series. cause yeah it can add new ways to fresh up how you play things. I never really dive into much into it as it will require a lot of extra work I don't want to. the most I did was in awakening I believe. which i had some fun making some real nasty units. turned the end game into a joke. it spark some joy in me to see my Chrom go into overkill mode on the final boss. ended up having my shortest turn count with a final map for the whole series as result. I should try to do that something like that again.
Two of my favorite reclasses to do in awakening is to get 10 levels of Vaike in his fighter then immediately switch him to brigand. It rapidly bumps his HP and STR to ridiculous levels and patches up his mild speed issue. You don’t need bows when 4 hand axes and 25+ STR.
I don’t know why, but I like making Kellam a priest if given the opportunity. His magic is awful but that means it’s really easy to get max staff rank. He’s so tanky and is the physically strongest war monk you can get. Plus that renewal and axe proficiency is nice if you reclass him back into armor knight.
I personally disagree about having the supports not mention the base class of the unit. Since the writers probably only know/care about what the characters default class is, there’s no reason to remove stuff about it. Like for example having Hinoka’s supports without her pegasus wouldn’t make as much sense if she was a different class because her backstory goes into why she decided to become a pegasus knight, which is a good part of her character. Plus, it would mean that more dialogue would have to be written and/or voiced, which games tend to shy away from since it would mean paying people more.
Back in the GBA, supports could only happen midbattle. There it makes sense people complain about theoretical supports in classes without mounts talking about stuff their mount is doing in the moment.
Nowadays, supports happen in controlled places, so it could be handwaved as the convo happening in a stable or something
I think people are just silly about it. Marianne talk about her horse in her supports, but she isn't even in a mounted class canonically.
Having an horse does not mean you have to ride it all the times. Reclassing just mean you are keeping it in the stable for the time being.
@noukan42 But their are multiple mounted horse classes she can be in and not having a set class in three houses means it doesn't detract the supports (Shamir for example makes alot of mention to her archery and comes in the Sniper class. But out of fairness characters are not really confine to a set weapon in any class sans some of the magic classes banning Brawl/gauntlets weapon use. Since Marienne has a background of loving horses to the point it's her PERSONAL SKILL that takes into mind if she's horse mounted or not it makes sense)
@@paulman34340 what i am trying to say is that just because a character has a favored weapon or a named horse doesn't mean that they need to use those all the times.
Robin Hood is the most iconic archer, but it is safe to assume that he fought with other weapons as a vassal of Richard the Lionheart during the crusades. Miyamoto Musashi literally wrote the book about being a Myrm and said book include technique on how to use spears, bows and guns as well.
"Reclassing" is a thing warriors do all the times because for the most part FE classes are just the set of equipment you wield. Just because someone is a master swordman, it does not mean they can't wield an axe at all, nor it mean they would always prefer the sword. But they would still talk about swords rather than axes.
@@noukan42 It's more character I was making a point with! Marianne liked horses that she was caring for one and even named it! Her personal support as says even heals her if she's land mounted (which has her on a horse) or next to a unit that is land mounted! Shamir is the closet to Robin Hood you can get and she's skilled with other weapon types (especially thanks to how the skill system of 3Houses works) but she's an expert of Archery! (Though she's a sniper, she can be trained into Assassin that can fit her "Mercenary" background)
When you have a Set class it can cause problems in supports though I can counter that they can STILL be connected to those things and their current class could be seen as "doing something different!" Like Minerva in FEH makes mention to having previously been a Pegasus Rider (since they promote into Wyvern Knights! While I will note that when they made a child version of her, that version is a Wyvern Knight which goes against her being a Pegasus Rider previously! Though you could say this was a point in her life where she "promoted early!" can't say since Palla is also a Pegasus Rider and already her aide in her young version as well while Catria is caring for a younger Est!) Hinoka might still go on patrols as a Sky Knight and care for her Pegasus even when she isn't the class outside "official battles" (where you have control!). I mean Sophie still has Avel in her Supports even if you take her out of a Horse Mounted Class as he's tied to . Amber is introduced in the same way Sophie was in Fates. Except "Horsie" is never mentioned again as he brings up Alpaca alot.
I will say it likely is better they DON'T make the character's official artwork/outfit show OFF that class too much as I remember Noire from Awakening is ALWAYS shown with a bow, even if you take her out of Bow wielding classes that I found WEIRD and was happy when Fates and beyond they started to make their outfits NOT connected to heavily to their Classes (especially from the Three Houses crowd! Shamir's outfit doesn't scream Archer, but more "Scout" which can be a WHOLE number of classes!)
I liked three houses keeping the unique outfit as an option. I wish it was engage especially, because man those generic outfits are ugly. (Apart from a couple)
Yeah engage generic outfits are a bit mix of quality. I really like Martial master, but I am not big on generic hero.
@@actuallizard generic hero is so bad visually, I just can't put anyone into that class lol
@@scottserage9022 hero goes from the most dripped out class to an awkward mess of a design every other game. Fates and GBA heroes are dope. I think the issue comes when they try give the hero things like weird full body light armor that leads to things like the awakening hero.
@@ezdayhero476 that’s true, they just don’t know what they want I guess.
Im the opposite. I hate the generic outfits in 3h so much. Its one of the reasons I dont like the game besides the battle animation being basic.
The one thing 3h did well, was making classes unlockable. That would be very much appreciated in something like Fates, where choosing who to promoted or reclass can be scary, for it not only cost a lot, but locks other units out for a while.
Say, someone reclasses Elise into wyvern, now the servant is the only healer up to promoting Niles, recruiting Shura, the second servant, reclassing Effie, Charlotte, or Leo or getting Forrest or Dwyer. All of which are either a high commitment, come late or both.
I like how impactful reclassing is in fates, but I've seen a lot of players scared dead of using it because of the commitment.
The one thing lol
@@Trikzilla ok then, 3h did nothing well and it's a wholy irredimable game. I agree with that!
there's nothing wrong with reclassing in fates asking commitment, there is quite a lot of options and the more they play the more confortable they'll be with using it, also every route is perfectly winnable without reclassing at all, at least in normal difficulty
Is that Pangya music that I hear in the background? That’s such a nostalgia blast!
Personally i do like reclassing, but I prefer how its done in Awakening and Fates, where each character has their own pros and cons and different paths for their promotions, and makes it so you can’t just make everyone into the strongest class available like making everyone a Wyvern Lord in 3 Houses
I just discovered your channel, and I really appreciate your approach to discussing these games!
There is a lot of depth here, but uou make these topics so accessible! Thank you for all of the work you do on these vids!
I definitely prefer units just being a class. I feel games like FE4, FE5, FE9, and FE10 Did a good job at allowing unit customization while giving every unit an identity, and these were primarily tied to skills.
FE4 had gen 2 which you would customize via their inheritance, which changes items, skills, growths, and holy blood, it even changed the endings of gen 2 characters. Even if you went substitute only for the units, they have special events to help gain stats, and there's still weapons and rings to customize them with.
FE5 had the skill manuals, one time use items that you could use to give any unit skills like vantage, wrath, sol, luna, paragon, and accost. Units also had really powerful unit identity because of additional things like the follow up critical multiplier.
FE9 and FE10 had a revamped skill system where a unit had a pool of points and each skill cost a certain amount. I feel additional changes could have been made to this system, but it allowed for some flexibility, and you could even take skills that came on a unit off of them to give to another unit that you were actually using.
I really don't think so.
In most games an unit identity can be summed up by 2 things: class and base level.
In FE4 almost every unit boil dow to: has an horse? Has pursuit? Has a legendary weapon? Everything else is, with rare exceptions, basically flavour. The children that can play a different role with a different father are very few and mostly involving staves.
PoR is even worse because BEXP abuse simply eclypse everything else to a comical degree. And in RD most units are just defined by whatever they have enought chapters to level up or not.
Customizzation require changes that actually make the unit play differently, otherwise they are window dressing. And most of the older games rarely achieve that because 90% of the feature of an unit are tied to wich class it belong to.
@@noukan42add can counter attack to FE4 since no matter how good they are if they wield bow they are not good in FE4 because they can't EP sweep.
I really like reclassing... but funny enough I think Fates is the only game that nailed the mechanic.
I really enjoy reclassing in FE, the way three houses did it with every unit having a different set of combat arts and magics was really interesting and keeping units feeling unique. I still really enjoy when I don't play with reclassing but things like class growth rates that are outside of a characters main classline I always find really fun
I agree with this a lot(and the one about unit identity)
Sorry if this seems scattered my thoughts are a bit more wild than usual right now
Fates remains my favourite reclassing system. Every unit initially has 2 class sets and can obtain additional 2 over the course the game, which is more than enough. It has 2 issues:
One, Partner Seals and Friendship Seals only check unit's primary class when choosing what they'll get from the seal. So for example if Effie, who's primary class is Armor Knight and secondary a Troubadour, gets A+ support with Elise, then Friendship Seal will give her a Troubadour. If she gets S support with Jakob, Partner Seal will once again give her a Troubadour, effectively bricking both seals. Easy way to fix is to instead have the game check all of units available classes so Effie gets Elise's secondary class (Wyvern Rider) and Jakob's secondary class (Cavalier) and if that check fails as well, then give parallel class.
Two, some units have a secondary class that is completely useless for them (Felicia, Rinkah, Orochi, Setsuna, Kagero, Kaden and Peri), which hurts the variety when the reclass isn't worth it outside of memes. Easy fix for that is... well... don't give a unit with no personal magic base/growth a magic class and vice versa with physical classes. Or in case of Setsuna and Rinkah - a class that helps offset their weaknesses rather than amplifying them.
Other than that it's the best middle ground between freeform reclassing and retaining unit identity.
I still make Peri a sorc just for eye candy on my lunatic runs and give her all the stat boosters
@@Kuroo39 Oh yeah, Peri's design works much better as Dark Mage, than a Cav. If only she had more than 0 base magic and 5 growth :(
@@Xertaron. it hurts but it's the only thing we peribros got to eat
I think an interesting way to help unit identity would be building off Engage's Favored Weapon mechanic, imagine characters could keep a mid to low weapon rank for a weapon they're used to, and carry it into other classes. The weapon can grow weapon ranks much faster in a class that has it normally and become usable in classes that normally don't. So you could do something like put that mage into a Swordmaster to make a Diet Mortal Savant in a game that might not have it because they keep D-B tomes along with the S Swords from Swordmaster, or they could stay in their magic using class, shoot up to S rank super fast and be a super powerful specialist. Maybe if you really wanted to make a choice, maybe most classes can't reach the highest weapon rakns and need to match a favored weapon, or the favored weapon allows some specially high weapon rank (Like how Tellius had SS rank)
Edit: This also means these two units with very similar growths are less 1-1 with the options granted by a favored weapon, maybe Mage A and Cleric A have very similar growths and early join time, but because their favored weapons are Tomes and Staves respectively, they ultimately function differently, even when reclassed into some other options because one retains the ability to use basic offensive magic and the other retains some support abilities, even if both became, say, Halberdiers
Hope you're having a good day
I'm not a fan of reclassing, but I don't for a second think that your previous video was anti-reclassing. Tbh, it's probably just because a number of people (me included) were being anti-reclassing in the comments.
Anyways... I said Fates has the best reclassing, but I think 3 Hopes also should be discussed for open reclassing. The "main" paths gives more options and you can change whenever once you have a class unlocked (outside battle). The important part though, is that some people can't learn certain abilities and that makes others who can feel more unique. And that's not mentioning combat arts and 3 personal skills. They could have only had like 2 different learnsets per class and it probably would have been felt unique, considering the 8 class lines and 10 master classes.
This is a great video, but I definetly need to say that being able to give a class you like to a character you like is not the ideal scenario. Are you stuck using Knoll or Ewan as your only Shamans (my favorite class) in FE8? Then you will remember Knoll fondly for being the game's one user of dark magic.
“That’s a lot of fun if you’re the type of player that enjoys planning and being rewarded for it”
Almost like… it’s a strategy game!
I kid but it was funny to hear the phrasing
Something I think is worth mentioning is that Shadow Dragon's reclassing, while free to do, does have a limit on how many units of each class type you can have. Through the whole game, each class type has a limit of however many of that class you've been given, plus one.
For instance in chapter four, when you first get access to reclassing, you have no mages, so you can only make one unit into a mage. You do, however, have a flier in the form of Caeda, meaning you can have two flying units.
Between the free reclassing, the generic units you get if you kill off enough of your army, and the Gaiden chapter requirements mostly just being "have 15 or less surviving units at the end of the previous chapter" makes the game almost encourage recklessness, and it's a vastly different style of gameplay from any other FE game out there, because the game gives you backup methods to gain what you need to finish the game no matter how you play.
Gotta love how the mechanic was made as a failsafe and ended up promoting saccing and juggernauting
@@SinNun-tx5jp Oh of course! Mechanics that encourage different gameplay styles, however unintentional, are always good.
@@SinNun-tx5jpnot to mention how it got interpreted so badly because completionist mentality.
@@A_Person_64 wdym?
@@SinNun-tx5jp the intended reaction wasn't "KILL YOUR UNITS TO ACCESS THESE OPTIONAL MAPS" but rather "These optional maps are for players struggling through the game"
Like it's really weird how whenever I watch an ironman of Shadow Dragon and some people purposefully kill units off while complaining to access these chapters even though no one is breaking down their front door and putting a gun to their head and telling them to or else...
The best part about open reclassify is that you can STILL follow traditional class lines if you like them. All of the classes are THERE
I still remember one time in awakening Olivia became so powerful cause of reclassing, I wanted her to get some more power just to give her a way to not die if a melee unit got to her so I made her a myrimadon and even gave her a few levels in swordmaster to just give her a little better stats, I turned her back I think after she learned astra and she almost always hit it when she attacked
Reclassing needs to be heavily limited in future games.
It makes character design and class clarity difficult to parse when looking at some characters.
3H having the school setting has the biggest issue with this. You can't tell what a character's base class if they all have the same school uniform.
Engage in particular has a few characters where you really can't tell what their base class could even be until you see them in-game or look it up.
I would rather have character designs in the future to be based around what their base class is supposed to be with a few reclass options that suit their base class.
This is something I've been thinking about ever since Fates because of just how different the character designs have become after Awakening.
My personal reclassing preference is either awakening or fates… though also I like split branch class lines, somewhat prefer them over linear lines and greatly prefer them to 3 houses’s “tiered” classes
based goldmary enjoyer
I don't *hate* reclassing, but going back over a game like Awakening made me realize just how important the reclass options are.
...and, yes, my problem was how many people could be Wyvern Riders and Pegasi Knights.
For every character where it vaguely made sense, you'd just sorta get...Panne for some reason?But because fliers in most every game are good, getting to have a large army of them is both cool visually but also sorta- bad (not to mention if its a game that has bad maps).
I think reclassing makes it way harder to balance unit strengths/weaknesses and ends up turning everyone into 1 or 2 classes
That only happens if 1 or 2 classes are clearly better than the others.
If each class provides something good to the army, then players will use it.
I kinda wished Class Compatibility was a thing in reclassing as opposed to thresholds akin to Fire Emblem Three Houses. The older Persona Games before 3 had each party member have their own Compatibility with Persona of various Arcana. If you choose a Persona on a party member with Great Compatibility,you get boosts in stats and a discount on MP cost. So if you reclass into a class your are compatible with,you gain more stats for said class and maybe at best case scenario gain a skill you wouldn't if you had lesser Compatibility. And Bad or Worst Compatibility you either cannot reclass or you gain severe penalties trying to use it. I guess this is why I loved Branching Promotions and Reclassing better. Some units are better with a certain promotion due to the weapon types or the promo gains being better for their build. I am okay with choice but having no limits ruin gameplay balance and makes the game piss easy and funneled to one build. Cue the Bow Wyvern Lord Emblem of Three Houses again.
I feel that base stats, weapon levels, personal skills, and growths do a better and less forced job than having a new stats to bother you. Like you could reclass Lena into a Myrmidon but it gives you nothing valuable, as opposed to reclassing Wolf and Sedgar into Generals or Heroes.
5:41 Subaki wishes he was even nearly this perfect
I like branching promos and limited reclassing. It helps stop every unit from doing everything and a wyvern meta evolving, while highlighting characters who may not be the best stat wise but are good due to the role they can fill that others can't. Limited reclassing let you do new things with units, but it took a lot of investment, and some stuff still just wasn't possible.
"Ultimately, there's never gonna be a perfectly balanced class system"
Thanos in shambles
This is me *engage*ing with the video! 👍
I tend to leave reclasses for replays. Only reclassing the avatar.
If the avatar is supposed to be me. I would prefer to use any class that doesnt use a sword.
Guess its gonna talk about the skills you get from awakening and fates which is very good as some units benefits to extremes with a reclass
Morgan for example is usually the mother/father class opposite robin so they can get those parent skills then go to dark flier for gale force if it isn't a gale mom.
Lissa and Maribelle for example could be good dark fliers if they go directly to it due to having high magic.
Niore same she's honestly better as a dark mage than archet due to her parents having magic growths when i play.
Fates wise it's even more useful as any and all skills are saved at the end of the game meaning you have it forever when you register the unit giving you more resources for the next playthrough(especially if you took aptitude from the cheat shop)
And thats without talking about the trainee units in donnel who's reclass is his entire journey symbolism to a T.
On the previous fire emblem, the class is for me the identity of the character. Reclassing like awakening (all gale force) , 3 houses (all wyvern) or engage ( all griffon) is really bad for me. Cause the character are not unique anymore. I really love the Reclassing of fates. Not a lot of classes preserves the identity of a character. But! It seems there are no perfect system yet. I would like more unique trait ( like 3houses but even more) with the Reclassing système of fate or no Reclassing. I really like to play the character for what it was created for. With no Reclassing system, all character are like unique classes ( or closed because low competition between character) + the army has to be divertified because you don't have the choice.
Would want it gone entirely anyway tbh
I think FE8/Awakening/Fates at least how i remember them, did Classes the best, you can play units in multiple classes, but they usually were similar to the units base class or were to fit their character.
With 3H every class being open for every character took away from their identity but during Echoes it really hurt the replayability of the game when everyone except villagers has a locked class and you can wield every unit.
Reclassing adds a basic layer of replay value when it's present, but I do think it's unnecessary to let units be whatever unless they do more to make each unit distinct. Rare or unique skills or combat arts/spells, unique benefits or rewards from supports, or personal weapons can add more to how a unit works. Including a mechanic similar to the emblem rings could add even more depth, but I hope they give each unit more unique benefits if they do.
Too many times will IS grant specific units powerful bonuses like custom classes, personal weapons, etc. and then a lot of units not only get none of that, but some are just super bad with not even a useful niche. Reclassing, skill systems, and emblem rings added so much more to making those types of units useful, but taking it a step further to give more unique benefits to each unit could make the experience so much better instead of taking a big risk with a terrible unit.
Didnt think id hear super swing golf music from a fire emblem channel lol.
Hi Lizard!
Great analysis!
I'd be interested in seeing an FE game use a reclassing system that has promption seals based on unit type. If you want to reclass someone into a physical foot unit you need to give them an infantry seal, mage seals for magic units, etc. This could add a lot ot interesting resource management to the game as you need to think which units should get which seals. For example, if you want a tier 2 wyvern knight you need to give both your wyvern seals to a single unit, making them very strong but that's your only wyvern knight for the game. This would also help class balancing since you can balance the stength of a specific line of classes based on how many of their seals you get.
13:12 Wyverns are cool, but yknow what's even cooler?
*Reclases everyone to GBA General Class*
Reclassing has soured for me over the last few entries. Engage and especially 3H have essentially convinced me its a bad idea but at least with Fates and Awakening the limited options for each unit made it a lot more interesting. I still struggle with reclassing Felicia to Strategist each playthrough due to the speed loss.
Unfortunatly I think Nintendo as a whole seems to want to go for the sandbox route and FE is horribly suited for large amounts of customization. 3H was carried hard by its amazing characters and its gameplay was some of the worst I can remember with boring maps... Route maps especially.
Free reclassing tends to shine a light on whether or not a game has bad class balance. It's one thing if fliers are broken in FE7 when you only get a limited number of them. That limitation lets the devs experiment with imbalanced classes statistically, but in a game with free reclassing, everyone can be that broken class. The reason everyone goes wyvern in 3H isn't just because they can because of free reclassing, it's because wyvern is just that much better than almost every other class. It's why, for me at least, Engage felt less egregious with its free reclassing, because the balance is better. There's still definitely some shit classes in that game, but it's not all wyverns, all the time.
(11:05) What about growth rates? Couldn't growth rates be used to help unit identity?
Yup! Though I think Growth rates are best as a supplementary tool for unit identity, since players can't see them. So, without using online tools it can take a bit for a player to figure out what a unit's growths actually are.
I get that limiting classes benefits balancing but i can't be mad at the idea of turning young female mage Anna into a General
reclassing is one of my favorite aspects of modern fire emblem (when done right), so i had to click this video as soon as i got the notification
I never liked reclassing, it's just feels wrong when a fighter becomes cavalier or monk a flier. I guess it can be fun, but you can hardly make an serious story when a typical obsessed edgy myrmidon becomes archer. Also I would say it limits you character choice, because what point in investing into some OG Wyvern rider, when I can just make my fav one. Sure using Knoll is painful as hell, but you definitely will remember him after finishing the game, unless if you could just make L'achel into shaman
I think there is one other way to make reclassing a fun mechanic. Make it be a suggestion for some units, where their skill spread suit one particular class, but it isn't the one they start in. Make a unit whose family pushes them to be a cavalier, but who have clearly show a preference for being a mage, for example. And build it into their supports, where they are considering what class to be, and their friends are pushing them to try a bunch out.
One big shout out to Engage and, to a lesser extent, Three Houses reclassing is that the units have unique color pallets. Awakening and Fates's ugly generic blue armor just makes units feel way worse from an identity and aesthetics perspective. Engage and Three Houses might drop you into a generic model but at least the unit still looks like the unit. The only reason I give Engage a little more credit for this than Three Houses is that the pallets are bit more consistent. I do wish that Engage had Three Houses' option to use the units default outfit in different classes though.
My main problem with FE reclassing discourse is that every instance of "complexity" in any argument needs to be replaced with "multiple wiki tabs" because 90% of the information you need to plan builds isn't available in the game. Taking Engage as an example: it's make absolutely ZERO sense that your first mage, the guy that exists to be a tutorial on magical damage, being made to be reclassed into an str class because his invisible magic growth is basically 0%.
I dont think it is bad, but for someone with a difficulty in choosing more options make me scared of doing the "wrong" thing
Comment for algorithm
Ummm did u say BOTH DRUID CANDIDATE ARE BAD.i want you to replay fe8 and use ewan as a dark mage I had him go summoner and he has better stats then SETH.
So ya Ewan is not bad
Love the reclassing system when it feels like there’s more than just a couple of popular master class options, sucks when it’s just Wyvern Master Emblem
The trade off at it's worse can be a completely bricked character or a waste of double the resources for nothing if you change a magic unit into a physical fighter in earlier games or vice versa. Engage its cool that stats just readjust for the class.
But aside from fates and slow play accounts I don't see much point in experimenting as it's just more work for less pay off
Doing worst class playthroughs in Three Houses can be a lot of fun. Entirely doable, even in Maddening. New Game+ gives you more than enough resources to make it a fairly smooth experience, but it's still possible from a fresh New Game file. A lot of characters that are primarily physically oriented that don't have any boons or hidden talents in magic still have interesting and useful spell lists to draw upon. Some of those to the point they may be worth going that way even when not doing a challenge run.
I always avoid Pegasus Ingrid on Blue Lions route, choosing to train her magic or hybrid classes (it's best to recruit her late on other routes, so that's where I favor training her Strengths). It's pretty hard to brick a character in Three Houses, and you're generally going to be putting in near the same effort and investment regardless of what classes you make characters since it's part of the core gameplay loop either way. Main caveat is you have to plan early and are locked in to your long term goal in that game. Not a whole lot of room to switch gears with a given character once you're deeper into the story progression.
All that said, I do still really hope there is a much more limited or fixed class progression installment in the series within the near future. Fire Emblem thrives when each game has something new to offer from the games immediately proceeding it, and reclassing has been too heavy of a focus for multiple games in a roll.
The problem with reclassing Fire Emblems is that the map design suffers a lot.
In no reclassing FE, designers kinda know what units you can have at any moment and they create the maps accordingly.
Just look at that FE8 map you showed. The villages, Amelia's movement, the water gap and the flier(s) available. It wants you to rush Seth to the Draco shield, pick the rapier with a flier and go forward fast with your army to recruit Amelia, who has one less movement than your lord.
Without that knowledge, designers just put a whole lot of enemies in a vast map, and just create gimmicks and skirmishes. But no thoughtful design of the map as a whole.
Reclass games like Conquest and Engage have absolutely great maps, what you're describing is that old maps used to be 'tighter' because they were linear.
You can't just say maps like Takemi's Canal or Griss's fog of War are just gimmicks and skirmishes because those additional terrain effects and abilities add so much to the strategizing of the map and leads to so many creative ways to beat the map with no easy obvious answers.
@@bumibomber Well, Conquest is perhaps the least "reclass friendly" of all FE where it's allowed, and in chapter 10 you can have maybe 1 or 2 Second Seals. That's why that map is awesome.
And Griss' map is very gimmicky. Fog of war map with a teleporting boss... Yes, it may be good, but relies in gimmicks nonetheless.
And talking about Engage. The desert with raising water, the last Marni and Mauvier map, the last Veyle map and the next, recovering the emblems. All of those are big skirmishy maps with some gimmick.
@@FandeREvil The limited classes on canal contributes very little to what that map actually gives, other than the fact that you have limited fliers which youre going to have in most reclass games anyway other than three houses, who imo did reclassing and map design the worst of the reclass games.
Also stop downplaying good map design just because it has a gimmick as good map design only because it's a gimmick. If a map is well built around that idea and is fun to play because of it, it IS a good map.
*No i don't think i will*
I don't know if this sounds heretical, but I think I'd like reclassing more if it was a New Game+ feature. I kind of like my first playthroughs to be "default" settings and then do "what ifs" afterwards
Reclassing>No reclassing. Custom options are an intrinsic element of the series in the modern day. If I wanted generic units I’d play an actual strategy game and not Fire Emblem.
Fire Emblem is supposed to be first and foremost a war simulation.
You are supposed to recruit a fully functional soldier that may die.
Customization units is secondary, the most important is if your unit is alive or not.
Sometimes I wish Fire Emblem come back with the 20 maximum stat cap, it makes the game more interesting in the risk side.
What would be the point of permadeath when you can just reclass a character into someone who just died?
I just wish engage had characters that I would want to reclass and didn't creep me out by watching me sleep
Have you considered not sleeping in the game?
@@ultla321the image of alear on coffee 24/7 and never sleeping because everyone watches him sleep is a funny thought
@@SleepyBrady Or just lock the door.
Liz... I love these vids but it's 2024, man. Please record with the HD texture pack in Fates we don't gotta live like this anymore
the HD texture pack is so ugly
The HD pack îs useless. And I hate hearkng the units talking when you select them. Also here again talking only about fates. You are honestly such a clown
Also fates pair up mechanic îs very mediocre implemented. Not to mention reclassing sucks other than getting skills and reclassing back, since you get E rank în other weapons and it's a pain to rank weapons up.
I feel like a neat idea would be for unlocking the ability to re-class anyone without restriction after beating the game with restricted FE8 style promotions. as a sort of optional easter-egg or sandbox mode.